DREAM Act comes to an end in Senate

[admiralsnackbar]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/12/18/105518/dream-act-comes-to-an-end-in-senate.html

By William Douglas | McClatchy Newspapers


WASHINGTON — The Senate killed a bill Saturday that would've provided a conditional path to citizenship for the children of illegal immigrants in a vote that highlighted the dim prospects of getting a comprehensive overhaul of the nation's immigration laws through Congress over the next two years.
Democrats couldn't muster the 60 votes required to overcome a Republican filibuster on the Development, Relief and Education of Alien Minors Act, which the House of Representatives passed earlier this month.
The Senate's 55-41 vote broke mostly along party lines, though three Republicans — Sens. Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, Robert Bennett of Utah and Richard Lugar of Indiana — voted with the Democrats.
Five Democratic senators — Mark Pryor of Arkansas, Kay Hagan of North Carolina, Ben Nelson of Nebraska and Jon Tester and Max Bacus of Montana — sided with Republicans. Sen. Joe Manchin, D-W.Va., announced his opposition to the bill but missed the vote.
President Barack Obama, who promised in the 2008 presidential campaign to revamp U.S. immigration laws, called Saturday's vote "incredibly disappointing."
"A minority of senators prevented the Senate from doing what most Americans understand is best for the country," Obama said in a written statement. "There was simply no reason not to pass this important legislation."
Comprehensive immigration overhaul opponents rejoiced over the defeat of a measure that they considered an "amnesty" bill that rewarded bad behavior and a stalking horse for a liberalization of U.S. immigration laws.
"This law, at its fundamental core, is a reward for illegal activity," Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., said on the Senate floor. "This is an amnesty bill because it provides every possible benefit, including citizenship, to those who are in the country illegally."
Under the DREAM Act, illegal immigrants younger than 30, who entered the U.S. before age 16, lived here for five years without committing any serious crimes, graduated from high school and attended college or joined the military, would've been eligible for legal residency after meeting other criteria.
A study by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office estimated that the act would've helped 300,000 to 500,000 undocumented immigrants. However, the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which opposed the DREAM Act, estimated that it would have benefitted 2.1 million illegal immigrants.
DREAM Act supporters crammed into the Senate visitor's gallery to witness the vote. Several wore graduation caps and held hands as a Senate clerk announced the final vote tally.
Many were sobbing and hugging each other in the halls outside the Senate chamber after the vote.
"We were hopeful, we thought people were going to do the right thing, not politics," said Julieta Garibay, a 30-year-old Austin, Texas, resident whose family illegally emigrated from Mexico City when she was 12. "We're going to keep on fighting. We're more defiant than ever."
But Clarissa Martinez, director of immigration and national campaigns for the National Council of La Raza, said Saturday's vote is likely a harbinger for the future when it comes to immigration and Congress.
With Republicans taking over the House of Representatives next month and with the 2012 presidential election looming, Martinez predicted that little, if anything, will be done on immigration over the next two years.
"I think it looks tough," Martinez said. "It's going to continue to be an uphill battle."



Funny that so many in the GOP saw this as an amnesty bill for ALL illegal immigrants, when it was an effort to only absorb those illegals who are on track to become productive, tax-paying citizens (who already have the resources to pay their way through college) or soldiers we desperately need. How can the GOP pretend they're the party of business and economic savvy when they turn away the very kinds of hungry (or wealthy) potential citizens this country is desperately in need of to fire it's economic engine?

[spursncowboys]

the Dems are not interested in fixing a problem but rather buying votes at the expense of our future generation. We need a more secure border, and a response to the cartels and criminal enterprises who are molesting our border for their profit.

[Hooks]

Brown people scare me.

[jack sommerset]

Brown people scare me.

:lmao Good one, brah!

[Duff McCartney]

the Dems are not interested in fixing a problem but rather buying votes at the expense of our future generation. We need a more secure border, and a response to the cartels and criminal enterprises who are molesting our border for their profit.

How is this at the expense of our future generation? There's nothing in this bill that is directed at American citizens...only future American citizens.

[spursncowboys]

There is nothing in the bill which will fix anything, which is what I said earlier.

[DJ Mbenga]

the Dems are not interested in fixing a problem but rather buying votes at the expense of our future generation. We need a more secure border, and a response to the cartels and criminal enterprises who are molesting our border for their profit.

lol the republicans were happy to sell those votes away, they want nothing to do with latinos. although maybe something like rubio can help them. they have time to get on message but so far going against the Latinos and middle class not looking great for them.

[Crookshanks]

Illegal is illegal is illegal is illegal! I don't care if the parents brought them here when they were young - the parents broke the law, and now EVERYONE must suffer the consequences. This was amnesty - and the majority of people in this country don't want any part of it.

[Wild Cobra]

Funny that so many in the GOP saw this as an amnesty bill for ALL illegal immigrants, when it was an effort to only absorb those illegals who are on track to become productive, tax-paying citizens (who already have the resources to pay their way through college) or soldiers we desperately need. How can the GOP pretend they're the party of business and economic savvy when they turn away the very kinds of hungry (or wealthy) potential citizens this country is desperately in need of to fire it's economic engine?
Not true. If you read the clauses that allow them to become citizens, without doing anything publicized... I mean anything... you see it's just a joke!

Stop being a lemming and know what you speak of.

[Wild Cobra]

How is this at the expense of our future generation? There's nothing in this bill that is directed at American citizens...only future American citizens.
It's at the expense of our future generations because it promotes more illegal immigration. More people taking away jobs traditionally done by people entering the job field for the first time. With an ever growing supply of low wage workers, how can anyone have a bright future?

[Wild Cobra]

Illegal is illegal is illegal is illegal! I don't care if the parents brought them here when they were young - the parents broke the law, and now EVERYONE must suffer the consequences. This was amnesty - and the majority of people in this country don't want any part of it.
Agreed.

[admiralsnackbar]

Stop being a lemming and know what you speak of.

Lemming, huh? Is this the same independent, critical mind that accepted Obama's little diplomatic sleepovers cost $200M/day without question? :lol

Why don't you walk the walk and show us how much you know about the bill instead of pretending to have the intellectual credibility on this board to play the condescending prick and be able to refute in vacant short-handed generalities?

[boutons_deux]

illegal, schmegal.

Seems like you right wingers love to apply the hard-assed, inhumane letter of the law only to blacks, browns, poor, sick people, while letting rich, white, white-collar, corrupt Euro-Americans slip-slide right on by.

[BlairForceDejuan]

Let one in. Kick one out. 300 mil deep! God Bless.

[TeyshaBlue]

This bill was important to pass because, as we all know, there is simply no way for an immigrant to obtain citizenship otherwise!

[boutons_deux]

The Repugs offer no solution, only obstruction, because they were deeply divided when they had all the power in the 2000s, and still are.

Repug businessmen pocket $Ms with cheap illegal immigrant labor and even cheating them out of wages completely.

[ducks]

The Repugs offer no solution, only obstruction, because they were deeply divided when they had all the power in the 2000s, and still are.

Repug businessmen pocket $Ms with cheap illegal immigrant labor and even cheating them out of wages completely.

how do you know if they are repu or doneys that do that cheap illegal immigrant labor


please prove a link from a conservative site and a liberal site

[boutons_deux]

Sorry, I really don't know if they are repu or doneys.

You got me there, ducks. Touche

[Duff McCartney]

It's at the expense of our future generations because it promotes more illegal immigration. More people taking away jobs traditionally done by people entering the job field for the first time. With an ever growing supply of low wage workers, how can anyone have a bright future?

Sorry but backbreaking labor intensive jobs are not traditionally done by any citizen in this country. Since the founding of the United States has there ever been a back breaking job that was strictly done by Americans? No.

You really believe that the future generations are going to want those jobs working in the fields picking fruits and vegetables? No they aren't nor will they ever take those jobs. Low wage workers are just part of the capitalist economy stop being a communist and trying to stop these capitalists from making a profit.

[boutons_deux]

lying scare-mongering from the racist/nativist xenophobes, while offering no solution or even progress, just rabble-rousing, bubba-baiting obstruction.

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry but backbreaking labor intensive jobs are not traditionally done by any citizen in this country.
Bullshit.

Who built the interstate systems?

Who built Hover dam?

Who were the men of steel who built skyscrapers before modern equipment?

You don't know what you are talking about. Americans have busted their asses for years.

Are you all for the pussification of America?

Yep... I see your hand raised.

Since the founding of the United States has there ever been a back breaking job that was strictly done by Americans? No.
I would say it was done by any willing worker. Not strictly Americans.

You really believe that the future generations are going to want those jobs working in the fields picking fruits and vegetables?
Hey, I did it as a child, my mother did it, her sisters did it?

What the fuck is wrong with you thinking Americans won't work hard. Maybe it's just you generation. If so, you will be part of the cause of breaking this nations bank.

Fuck you.

No they aren't nor will they ever take those jobs. Low wage workers are just part of the capitalist economy stop being a communist and trying to stop these capitalists from making a profit.
You are a clueless idiot when it comes to some things.

What is it? Think your generation is too good for manual labor?

[Wild Cobra]

lying scare-mongering from the racist/nativist xenophobes, while offering no solution or even progress, just rabble-rousing, bubba-baiting obstruction.
That's right, too stupid to understand the reality of what I say, so call me a bigot.

Shows your utter lack of wisdom.

[TeyshaBlue]

lying scare-mongering from the racist/nativist xenophobes, while offering no solution or even progress, just rabble-rousing, bubba-baiting obstruction.

Which is a perfect descriptor for that asinine rant.

[TheSullyMonster]

Hey, I did it as a child, my mother did it, her sisters did it?

What the fuck is wrong with you thinking Americans won't work hard. Maybe it's just you generation. If so, you will be part of the cause of breaking this nations bank.

Fuck you.

You are a clueless idiot when it comes to some things.

What is it? Think your generation is too good for manual labor?

So I wrote a lot but edited it out because of tl;dr.

But basically, I have skills and education. I'm furthering them both. I see no reason to work unskilled manual labor. I can work 1/4 the hours teaching music lessons and make the same amount of money., or make twice as much doing entry level tech jobs if I want something conventional.

Why would I work manual labor?

[Wild Cobra]

So I wrote a lot but edited it out because of tl;dr.

But basically, I have skills and education. I'm furthering them both. I see no reason to work unskilled manual labor. I can work 1/4 the hours teaching music lessons and make the same amount of money., or make twice as much doing entry level tech jobs if I want something conventional.

Why would I work manual labor?
I'm not saying you should. Point is, the whole concept that illegal aliens do the work that americans won't is shear bullshit, ignorance, or something else that says little about those who believe such.

It's called supply and demand. If an employer cannot find help at the wages offered, he has to raise the wages. As long as ignoramuses like yourself accept the bullshit of bringing in lesser paid people who are more desperate, then we will continue having a population that does not work, who could. At better wages too because of the reality of supply and demand pricing if we stopped flooding the labor pool with low skilled workers. We need more tax payers. Not more tax users.

I'm sorry, but we don't need more low skilled workers. We already have an overage of that here. We need to make them work these hard jobs, and stop subsidizing their existence if they are not willing to.

[TeyshaBlue]

lol @ "White people watch out!"

http://www.examiner.com/civil-rights-in-phoenix/dream-act-students-vow-revolution-after-act-fails-the-senate
:rolleyes

[TheSullyMonster]

I'm not saying you should. Point is, the whole concept that illegal aliens do the work that americans won't is shear bullshit, ignorance,

Sure. I'll bet somebody is about to call me racist, but when I was in NW Washington(Twilight country:lol), I was surprised to see white people doing manual labor and construction, etc.

On the other hand, Denver Parks & Recreation had to go import some Mexicans on temporary visas because the legal, local people called in too much or quit too often, circa 2003 when I lived there.:lol



It's called supply and demand. If an employer cannot find help at the wages offered, he has to raise the wages.

Assuming there is revenue to support that, sure. Or the employer lowers their services/products offered. I'm sure some industries with heavy illegal presence have slim profit margins.



As long as ignoramuses like yourself accept the bullshit of bringing in lesser paid people who are more desperate,

That's supply and demand too! I love that principle, it means I'll be making pretty good money as an engineer, because there is a finite supply of them, and generally, more engineering jobs than there are engineers(if you're willing to travel/relocate)!:toast



then we will continue having a population that does not work, who could. At better wages too because of the reality of supply and demand pricing if we stopped flooding the labor pool with low skilled workers.

That's assuming infinite revenue and profit margins that support legal employees again!


We need more tax payers. Not more tax users.

Though that would help, definitely.



I'm sorry, but we don't need more low skilled workers. We already have an overage of that here. We need to make them work these hard jobs, and stop subsidizing their existence if they are not willing to.

Mostly agreed.

[Wild Cobra]

Sully, I don't know what to say. You are apparently OK with people who come from a lower living standard, working traditionally good paying jobs at a cut rate, lowering everyone's standard of living.

Fuck you, get the fuck out of this great nation. Move elsewhere.

[admiralsnackbar]

Sully, I don't know what to say. You are apparently OK with people who come from a lower living standard, working traditionally good paying jobs at a cut rate, lowering everyone's standard of living.

Fuck you, get the fuck out of this great nation. Move elsewhere.

I notice you still haven't provided any response to the specifics of the bill, Cobra, just your usual over-heated emo crypto-racist bullshit, so fuck yourself, howsabout? Get the fuck out of this great thread and move to Stormwatch or something where the level of discourse is more appropriate for people who like to talk out of their ass to placate their bruised sensibilities about a vanished America that never existed?

[Wild Cobra]

I notice you still haven't provided any response to the specifics of the bill, Cobra, just your usual over-heated emo crypto-racist bullshit, so fuck yourself, howsabout? Get the fuck out of this great thread and move to Stormwatch or something where the level of discourse is more appropriate for people who like to talk out of their ass to placate their bruised sensibilities about a vanished America that never existed?
The bill allows citizenship with so many ways not to serve. It's just a ploy to make you libtards wet your pants. Here is a sample from the bill:


(3) HARDSHIP EXCEPTION.—The Secretary of Homeland Security may, in the Secretary’s discretion, extend the conditional nonimmigrant status of an alien if the alien—

(A) satisfies the requirements of subparagraphs (A), (B), and (C) of paragraph (1);

(B) demonstrates compelling circumstances for the inability to complete the requirements described in paragraph (1)(D); and

(C) demonstrates that the alien’s removal from the United States would result in exceptional and extremely unusual hardship to the


If you had any integrity, you would know what you were talking about, but I doubt you are even smart enough to understand how big of a loophole this one, and others, are.

I suggest you read the text yourself before saying I'm wrong.

H.R. 5281 (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr5281eah/pdf/BILLS-111hr5281eah.pdf)

Take all exceptions out, make all serve who want the citizenship, and I can go for it.

[admiralsnackbar]

Try reading my original post before you make me say again that you haven't said anything to address your non-points. I started from a premise that you shouldn't have to serve if you are educated, because being educated already suggests much about the ability and/or existing wealth of applicants. You seriously want to turn away taxable, skilled and/or wealthy potential citizens?

And when has anybody on this board not been smart enough to bat your "positions" around like a ball of developmentally challenged yarn?

[boutons_deux]

That's right, too stupid to understand the reality of what I say, so call me a bigot.

Shows your utter lack of wisdom.

I call you what you are, a close-minded, ideologically fantasizing xenophobic bigot

I have utter fullness of accuracy

[boutons_deux]

Illegal is illegal is illegal is illegal! I don't care if the parents brought them here when they were young - the parents broke the law, and now EVERYONE must suffer the consequences. This was amnesty - and the majority of people in this country don't want any part of it.

Give me a call when you rail against 10s of 1000s of super wealthy Americans evading taxes, ie illegal, with overseas accounts the way you hate the illegality of impoverished, non-criminal illegals and their kids.

You selective enforcement of the law betrays your racism and the profound depth of your Bible-thumping "Christianity".

[ChuckD]

Bullshit.

Who built the interstate systems?

Who built Hover dam?

Who were the men of steel who built skyscrapers before modern equipment?


Union workers. Once the unions were broken under Reagan and the pay went down, so did the incentive to do dangerous or menial work.

[Duff McCartney]

Bullshit.

Who built the interstate systems?

Who built Hover dam?

Who were the men of steel who built skyscrapers before modern equipment?

You don't know what you are talking about. Americans have busted their asses for years.

Are you all for the pussification of America?

Yep... I see your hand raised.

I would say it was done by any willing worker. Not strictly Americans.

Hey, I did it as a child, my mother did it, her sisters did it?

What the fuck is wrong with you thinking Americans won't work hard. Maybe it's just you generation. If so, you will be part of the cause of breaking this nations bank.

Fuck you.

You are a clueless idiot when it comes to some things.

What is it? Think your generation is too good for manual labor?

I don't see how not doing manual labor is for the pussification of America. If anything I think you are what's wrong with this nation holding on to outdated ideals and antiquated notions about what does or doesn't constitute a person.

Americans will work hard, if they have no other alternative. But they won't if they can get some illegal to work for pennies for it. Take off your ridiculous patriotic glasses and see the world for what it really is. This country has not and will not ever be built by the best and the baddest. It was built by the desperate and the willing...all those projects you so gladly pointed out were built by Depression era folks who had no other work.

[CuckingFunt]

You are apparently OK with people who come from a lower living standard, working traditionally good paying jobs at a cut rate, lowering everyone's standard of living.

When has picking fruit ever been a good paying job?

[Wild Cobra]

When has picking fruit ever been a good paying job?
They do far more than that. They are talking away traditionally good paying jobs like construction, lowering the standard wages for such jobs.

[TheSullyMonster]

Sully, I don't know what to say. You are apparently OK with people who come from a lower living standard, working traditionally good paying jobs at a cut rate, lowering everyone's standard of living.

I hate to break it to you, but that's pretty much the history of America.:bang:lmao

You and I have different ideas of what a 'good' paying job is, I think. The vast majority of people making what I consider good money aren't dodging INS, they're skilled or educated, partnered with brains or tenacity(the people who have both make better than good money).

Do I think illegals lower the average wage for unskilled and semi-skilled work, when they're in large supply? Yes.

Do I think that things like home renovation, lawnscaping and construction are definitely things affected by this? Yes.

But lets not kid ourselves, even without illegals in the picture, these jobs aren't making good money. Adequate? Sure. But being two paychecks away from poverty isn't good money. I'm ignoring people like the specialty orthopedic surgeon I worked for, who was making 500k+ a year net, and still living paycheck to paycheck.:lol

I would be intensely interested to see what happens if all illegals were magically deported one day, just to see what would happen economically.

I'm just not living in some land populated by unicorns and fairies thinking that there won't be impacts both major and minor in our lives.

Do you honestly think that companies going 'welp, I gotta pay people $5 more per hour and give them benefits.' isn't going to have an impact in services offered, and the price of those services?



Fuck you, get the fuck out of this great nation. Move elsewhere.
:whine

I have lived elsewhere, out of state, out of country and on different continents. I like it in Texas and I like the people I know here, so I decided to come back and put down some roots for a bit, thanks for the welcome.

But if it helps you any, I fully intend on traveling and living abroad in the future. There are great places other than the US as well, you know.:toast

[ChuckD]

They do far more than that. They are talking away traditionally good paying jobs like construction, lowering the standard wages for such jobs.

FAIL. Wages were lowered by union-busting corps starting under Reagan. Don't blame the Mex's if they're the only ones wanting to do back-busting work for peanuts.

[Wild Cobra]

FAIL. Wages were lowered by union-busting corps starting under Reagan. Don't blame the Mex's if they're the only ones wanting to do back-busting work for peanuts.
Fuck off you stupid idiot. That is not the cause of the current crisis. There are previsions of immigration in the constitution for a reason. It you don't understand the extra supply of illegal immigrants changing the natural supply and demand nature of wages, then you are too fucking lame to debate. It is true that some jobs have a hard time attracting workers, the employer then increases the wages enough to get the necessary workers.

[boutons_deux]

St Ronnie, patron saint of the VRWC, started the union busting with air traffic controllers, a formal signal that the corporate war on employees was officially approved and initiated, and the POTUS was the commanding general.

In parallel, was St Ronnie's huge lie, aka Repug SOP, and fundamental "principle" that "govt is the problem", distracting from the fact that Americans and America are really most threatened by corporations/employers, NOT by govt

Since St Ronnie sat his Hollywood-fake wealthy ass in the Oval office, median wage has stagnated, at best, while corporate exec income as skyrocketed to 100s of times the avg US wage, with compenstation of ften fully detached from exec/corporate performance.

Illegals working for shit wages or stolen wages for shit work is not what has stagnated US median wage. It's union busting and globabilization of moving US jobs offshore, which used to intimidate US workers into STFU.

[Parker2112]

BD, the corps you hate own the govt you claim is the answer.

If you walked into a whore house and all the women had adam's apples, would you still let them service you?

The govt is sporting a sizeable bulge buddy. Watch out as to what position you take on the bed...and rest assured big corps are watching from the peephole and ready to take their cut from your fee.

[Parker2112]

Fuck off you stupid idiot. That is not the cause of the current crisis. There are previsions of immigration in the constitution for a reason. It you don't understand the extra supply of illegal immigrants changing the natural supply and demand nature of wages, then you are too fucking lame to debate. It is true that some jobs have a hard time attracting workers, the employer then increases the wages enough to get the necessary workers.

immigration is only a small percent of the problem...conservatives sold this country out by shipping jobs across the globe. THAT is the competition that dealt the fatal blow. The immigration issue is a red herring fed to you by conservatives who dont want your eye on their backstabbing ways...

[TheSullyMonster]

Fuck off you stupid idiot. That is not the cause of the current crisis. What particular crisis are you referring to?



There are previsions of immigration in the constitution for a reason.


It was my understanding it only touched on naturalization, actually. I'll read it again this weekend, but if you know the citation, share it?



It is true that some jobs have a hard time attracting workers, the employer then increases the wages enough to get the necessary workers.

And again, you assume there is an infinite money pool to support higher wages.:wakeup

[CosmicCowboy]

immigration is only a small percent of the problem...conservatives sold this country out by shipping jobs across the globe. THAT is the competition that dealt the fatal blow. The immigration issue is a red herring fed to you by conservatives who dont want your eye on their backstabbing ways...

:lmao at you showing your ignorance.

The global economy is hardly a liberal/conservative issue.

The same bandwidth that allows you to post dumb shit on a message board allows jobs to be outsourced to the cheapest location.

[spursncowboys]

Union workers. Once the unions were broken under Reagan and the pay went down, so did the incentive to do dangerous or menial work.
unions weren't always there. once the socialists came in and brought unions. paying everyone a flatrate regardless of their work ability seems like less incentive than... well... what exactly are you talkinng about thatreagan did?

[spursncowboys]

:lmao at you showing your ignorance.

The global economy is hardly a liberal/conservative issue.

The same bandwidth that allows you to post dumb shit on a message board allows jobs to be outsourced to the cheapest location.

Not to mention other countries selliing a better product, like microwaves and cars, than the American counterpart. It's always about cheap labor, although that is a problem too.

[George Gervin's Afro]

unions weren't always there. once the socialists came in and brought unions. paying everyone a flatrate regardless of their work ability seems like less incentive than... well... what exactly are you talkinng about thatreagan did?

can you translate this into a coherent thought? Uniosn were originally introduced to guarantee worker safety and fair pay... is that socialism to you?

[spursncowboys]

can you translate this into a coherent thought? Uniosn were originally introduced to guarantee worker safety and fair pay... is that socialism to you? unions came in by socialists. its a form of price manipulation. jst like cartels and monopolies. all bad. what do you need translated?

[balli]

unions came in by socialists. its a form of price manipulation. jst like cartels and monopolies. all bad. what do you need translated?

Jesus, what a fucking dimwad.

You are the most dumb piece of shit, in the history of pieces of shit.

[Wild Cobra]

immigration is only a small percent of the problem...conservatives sold this country out by shipping jobs across the globe. THAT is the competition that dealt the fatal blow. The immigration issue is a red herring fed to you by conservatives who dont want your eye on their backstabbing ways...
No they didn't. Ut started with NAFTA, to help a bordering nation, to aleviate tbis proble. Then like the militarty cuts, president Clinton had to out-do the republicans. That when the shit hit the fan. Mexico alone, we could help, and it was in our best interest because oh the huge border. If Mexico could have achieved a good economy, we wouldn't need to worry about illegal immigration. We don't with Canada, now do we...

Asia, China, Malaysia, etc. etc. etc. Never should have happened. President Clinton fucked this nation royally.

[spursncowboys]

Jesus, what a fucking dimwad.

You are the most dumb piece of shit, in the history of pieces of shit.

:lol

Look into all the people who pushed unions in the late 1800's to 1900's. The leaders of the unions were socialists and/or marxists.

[Duff McCartney]

They do far more than that. They are talking away traditionally good paying jobs like construction, lowering the standard wages for such jobs.

That's a ridiculous argument. Like I've said before...do you really believe that illegal immigrants are to blame for lower wages? No they aren't...like if we remove all illegal immigrants the wages will suddenly increase. False.

No business enterprise is looking to increase it's labor cost. The only people you have to blame for the low wages is the businesses and capitalism you conservatives love so much. There is no "natural" supply and demand in this country...there is only businesses whose sole purpose is to increase profits and decrease labor costs.

[Duff McCartney]

:lol

Look into all the people who pushed unions in the late 1800's to 1900's. The leaders of the unions were socialists and/or marxists.

You don't think it was a good thing they were demanding higher wages? And they weren't all socialists or marxists...some were just demanding better working conditions. Like women in the textile factories in New England during the 18th and 19th century.

Name one thing that unions accomplished that you would say have been bad now?

[CuckingFunt]

They do far more than that. They are talking away traditionally good paying jobs like construction, lowering the standard wages for such jobs.

a) You didn't answer my question. When has picking fruit ever been a good paying job?

b) "They" can only lower standard wages for "such jobs" when employers care more about profits than they do about verifying legal citizenship.

[CosmicCowboy]

By: Mark Hemingway 12/27/10 11:16 AM

Columnist James Ahearn of New Jersey's Bergen Record has a great column on, of all things, the stagehands at New York city's top performing arts venues such as Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. These are not highly skilled or technical jobs but take a gander at how much they are paid:

At Avery Fisher Hall and Alice Tully Hall in Lincoln Center, the average stagehand salary and benefits package is $290,000 a year.

To repeat, that is the average compensation of all the workers who move musicians' chairs into place and hang lights, not the pay of the top five.

Across the plaza at the Metropolitan Opera, a spokesman said stagehands rarely broke into the top-five category. But a couple of years ago, one did. The props master, James Blumenfeld, got $334,000 at that time, including some vacation back pay.

Ahern also notes that the top paid stagehand at Carnegie Hall makes $422,599 a year in salary, plus $107,445 in benefits and deferred compensation. So why such exorbitant pay? You probably already guessed that a union is involved:

How to account for all this munificence? The power of a union, Local 1 of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees. "Power," as in the capacity and willingness to close most Broadway theaters for 19 days two years ago when agreement on a new contract could not be reached.

Wakin reported that this power was palpable in the nervousness of theater administrators and performers who were asked to comment on the salary figures.

Kelly Hall-Tompkins, for one, said, "The last thing I want to do is upset the people at Carnegie Hall. I'd like to have a lifelong relationship with them." She is a violinist who recently presented a recital in Weill Hall, one of the smaller performance spaces in the building.

She said she begrudged the stagehands nothing: "Musicians should be so lucky to have a strong union like that." Uh-huh.

Be sure and read Ahearn's whole column. And next time someone tells you unions are just about fair wages for an honest day's labor, remember that's not always the case. All too often they're about power and greed.

[TheSullyMonster]

While those salaries are exorbitant, it IS worth nothing that the stagehands work every performance, an individual musician, even in a symphony, isn't in the hall nearly so many hours as the stagehands.

...But shit, I know specialist orthopedic surgeons who make the same amount of money.

[Duff McCartney]

By: Mark Hemingway 12/27/10 11:16 AM

Columnist James Ahearn of New Jersey's Bergen Record has a great column on, of all things, the stagehands at New York city's top performing arts venues such as Lincoln Center and Carnegie Hall. These are not highly skilled or technical jobs but take a gander at how much they are paid:

At Avery Fisher Hall and Alice Tully Hall in Lincoln Center, the average stagehand salary and benefits package is $290,000 a year.

To repeat, that is the average compensation of all the workers who move musicians' chairs into place and hang lights, not the pay of the top five.

Across the plaza at the Metropolitan Opera, a spokesman said stagehands rarely broke into the top-five category. But a couple of years ago, one did. The props master, James Blumenfeld, got $334,000 at that time, including some vacation back pay.

Ahern also notes that the top paid stagehand at Carnegie Hall makes $422,599 a year in salary, plus $107,445 in benefits and deferred compensation. So why such exorbitant pay? You probably already guessed that a union is involved:

How to account for all this munificence? The power of a union, Local 1 of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees. "Power," as in the capacity and willingness to close most Broadway theaters for 19 days two years ago when agreement on a new contract could not be reached.

Wakin reported that this power was palpable in the nervousness of theater administrators and performers who were asked to comment on the salary figures.

Kelly Hall-Tompkins, for one, said, "The last thing I want to do is upset the people at Carnegie Hall. I'd like to have a lifelong relationship with them." She is a violinist who recently presented a recital in Weill Hall, one of the smaller performance spaces in the building.

She said she begrudged the stagehands nothing: "Musicians should be so lucky to have a strong union like that." Uh-huh.

Be sure and read Ahearn's whole column. And next time someone tells you unions are just about fair wages for an honest day's labor, remember that's not always the case. All too often they're about power and greed.

I'm not gonna sit here and say that unions have been the perfect model for anything. But if that's what they get paid, then that's what they get paid. Right now..labor unions are becoming a thing of the past, at least in this country. But when they started out they dramatically improved the lives of working people all over the country.

It's true that labor unions now have become complacent and lazy, like the auto workers unions that are a complete joke. If it was up to me, I'd have let those unions collapse because all they've gotten is shiftless and corrupt. But at the same time, the reason they formed in the first place was because the powers that be ignored their calls for better working conditions.

[Wild Cobra]

That's a ridiculous argument. Like I've said before...do you really believe that illegal immigrants are to blame for lower wages? No they aren't...like if we remove all illegal immigrants the wages will suddenly increase. False.
You don't see what they are doing nation wide. It's pretty bad here in Oregon.

No business enterprise is looking to increase it's labor cost. The only people you have to blame for the low wages is the businesses and capitalism you conservatives love so much. There is no "natural" supply and demand in this country...there is only businesses whose sole purpose is to increase profits and decrease labor costs.
I would agree if Portland didn't sanction the illegal hiring, tax evasion, etc. that goes on.

[Wild Cobra]

a) You didn't answer my question. When has picking fruit ever been a good paying job?

b) "They" can only lower standard wages for "such jobs" when employers care more about profits than they do about verifying legal citizenship.
A) This isn't about fruit, and traditionally migrant farm work was legal. Primarily because it's seasonal by crop type.Picking fruit can pay well for a skilled picker, but it's hard work. This is about full time, and part time jobs non-seasonal jobs that have been taken away by citizens.

B) Fuck that concept. That requires everyone involved to look away from the truth, and law enforcement to fail to enforce the laws. Are we a nation of laws, or not. For you to say such is OK, says little about your morals.

[Duff McCartney]

B) Fuck that concept. That requires everyone involved to look away from the truth, and law enforcement to fail to enforce the laws. Are we a nation of laws, or not. For you to say such is OK, says little about your morals.

You do know the history of this country right? Capitalists have always been trying to skirt laws in anyway they can. Laws do exist to be sure...and I'm not denying that they don't. But to act like since the founding of the nation everyone and every business has been law abiding every second of every day is naive. Hell many of the giant corporations made their money by skirting the law as best they could.