Plato: The Cave.

[Parker2112]

h-DRdTsnbr0

Happy Holidays. :toast

[Parker2112]

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/allegory.html


Text:

The Allegory of the Cave can be found in Book VII of Plato's best-known work, The Republic, a lengthy dialogue on the nature of justice. Often regarded as a utopian blueprint, The Republic is dedicated toward a discussion of the education required of a Philosopher-King.
The following selection is taken from the Benjamin Jowett translation (Vintage, 1991), pp. 253-261. As you read the Allegory, try to make a mental picture of the cave Plato describes. Better yet, why not draw a picture of it and refer to it as you read the selection. In many ways, understanding Plato's Allegory of the Cave will make your foray into the world of philosophical thought much less burdensome.

* * * * * *
[Socrates] And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground cave, which has a mouth open towards the light and reaching all along the cave; here they have been from their childhood, and have their legs and necks chained so that they cannot move, and can only see before them, being prevented by the chains from turning round their heads. Above and behind them a fire is blazing at a distance, and between the fire and the prisoners there is a raised way; and you will see, if you look, a low wall built along the way, like the screen which marionette players have in front of them, over which they show the puppets.
[Glaucon] I see.
[Socrates] And do you see, I said, men passing along the wall carrying all sorts of vessels, and statues and figures of animals made of wood and stone and various materials, which appear over the wall? Some of them are talking, others silent.
[Glaucon] You have shown me a strange image, and they are strange prisoners.
[Socrates] Like ourselves, I replied; and they see only their own shadows, or the shadows of one another, which the fire throws on the opposite wall of the cave?
[Glaucon] True, he said; how could they see anything but the shadows if they were never allowed to move their heads?
[Socrates] And of the objects which are being carried in like manner they would only see the shadows?
[Glaucon] Yes, he said.
[Socrates] And if they were able to converse with one another, would they not suppose that they were naming what was actually before them?
[Glaucon] Very true.
[Socrates] And suppose further that the prison had an echo which came from the other side, would they not be sure to fancy when one of the passers-by spoke that the voice which they heard came from the passing shadow?
[Glaucon] No question, he replied.
[Socrates] To them, I said, the truth would be literally nothing but the shadows of the images.
[Glaucon] That is certain.
[Socrates] And now look again, and see what will naturally follow if the prisoners are released and disabused of their error. At first, when any of them is liberated and compelled suddenly to stand up and turn his neck round and walk and look towards the light, he will suffer sharp pains; the glare will distress him, and he will be unable to see the realities of which in his former state he had seen the shadows; and then conceive some one saying to him, that what he saw before was an illusion, but that now, when he is approaching nearer to being and his eye is turned towards more real existence, he has a clearer vision, -what will be his reply? And you may further imagine that his instructor is pointing to the objects as they pass and requiring him to name them, -will he not be perplexed? Will he not fancy that the shadows which he formerly saw are truer than the objects which are now shown to him?
[Glaucon] Far truer.
[Socrates] And if he is compelled to look straight at the light, will he not have a pain in his eyes which will make him turn away to take and take in the objects of vision which he can see, and which he will conceive to be in reality clearer than the things which are now being shown to him?
[Glaucon] True, he now.
[Socrates] And suppose once more, that he is reluctantly dragged up a steep and rugged ascent, and held fast until he 's forced into the presence of the sun himself, is he not likely to be pained and irritated? When he approaches the light his eyes will be dazzled, and he will not be able to see anything at all of what are now called realities.
[Glaucon] Not all in a moment, he said.
[Socrates] He will require to grow accustomed to the sight of the upper world. And first he will see the shadows best, next the reflections of men and other objects in the water, and then the objects themselves; then he will gaze upon the light of the moon and the stars and the spangled heaven; and he will see the sky and the stars by night better than the sun or the light of the sun by day?
[Glaucon] Certainly.
[Socrates] Last of he will be able to see the sun, and not mere reflections of him in the water, but he will see him in his own proper place, and not in another; and he will contemplate him as he is.
[Glaucon] Certainly.
[Socrates] He will then proceed to argue that this is he who gives the season and the years, and is the guardian of all that is in the visible world, and in a certain way the cause of all things which he and his fellows have been accustomed to behold?
[Glaucon] Clearly, he said, he would first see the sun and then reason about him.
[Socrates] And when he remembered his old habitation, and the wisdom of the cave and his fellow-prisoners, do you not suppose that he would felicitate himself on the change, and pity them?
[Glaucon] Certainly, he would.
[Socrates] And if they were in the habit of conferring honors among themselves on those who were quickest to observe the passing shadows and to remark which of them went before, and which followed after, and which were together; and who were therefore best able to draw conclusions as to the future, do you think that he would care for such honors and glories, or envy the possessors of them? Would he not say with Homer,

Better to be the poor servant of a poor master,
and to endure anything, rather than think as they do and live after their manner?
[Glaucon] Yes, he said, I think that he would rather suffer anything than entertain these false notions and live in this miserable manner.
[Socrates] Imagine once more, I said, such an one coming suddenly out of the sun to be replaced in his old situation; would he not be certain to have his eyes full of darkness?
[Glaucon] To be sure, he said.
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
[Glaucon] No question, he said.
[Socrates] This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.
[Glaucon] I agree, he said, as far as I am able to understand you.
[Socrates] Moreover, I said, you must not wonder that those who attain to this beatific vision are unwilling to descend to human affairs; for their souls are ever hastening into the upper world where they desire to dwell; which desire of theirs is very natural, if our allegory may be trusted.
[Glaucon] Yes, very natural.
[Socrates] And is there anything surprising in one who passes from divine contemplations to the evil state of man, misbehaving himself in a ridiculous manner; if, while his eyes are blinking and before he has become accustomed to the surrounding darkness, he is compelled to fight in courts of law, or in other places, about the images or the shadows of images of justice, and is endeavoring to meet the conceptions of those who have never yet seen absolute justice?
[Glaucon] Anything but surprising, he replied.
[Socrates] Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the cave.
[Glaucon] That, he said, is a very just distinction.
[Socrates] But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.
[Glaucon] They undoubtedly say this, he replied.
[Socrates] Whereas, our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being, and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good.
[Glaucon] Very true.
[Socrates] And must there not be some art which will effect conversion in the easiest and quickest manner; not implanting the faculty of sight, for that exists already, but has been turned in the wrong direction, and is looking away from the truth?
[Glaucon] Yes, he said, such an art may be presumed.
[Socrates] And whereas the other so-called virtues of the soul seem to be akin to bodily qualities, for even when they are not originally innate they can be implanted later by habit and exercise, the of wisdom more than anything else contains a divine element which always remains, and by this conversion is rendered useful and profitable; or, on the other hand, hurtful and useless. Did you never observe the narrow intelligence flashing from the keen eye of a clever rogue --how eager he is, how clearly his paltry soul sees the way to his end; he is the reverse of blind, but his keen eyesight is forced into the service of evil, and he is mischievous in proportion to his cleverness.
[Glaucon] Very true, he said.
[Socrates] But what if there had been a circumcision of such natures in the days of their youth; and they had been severed from those sensual pleasures, such as eating and drinking, which, like leaden weights, were attached to them at their birth, and which drag them down and turn the vision of their souls upon the things that are below --if, I say, they had been released from these impediments and turned in the opposite direction, the very same faculty in them would have seen the truth as keenly as they see what their eyes are turned to now.
[Glaucon] Very likely.
[Socrates] Yes, I said; and there is another thing which is likely. or rather a necessary inference from what has preceded, that neither the uneducated and uninformed of the truth, nor yet those who never make an end of their education, will be able ministers of State; not the former, because they have no single aim of duty which is the rule of all their actions, private as well as public; nor the latter, because they will not act at all except upon compulsion, fancying that they are already dwelling apart in the islands of the blest.
[Glaucon] Very true, he replied.
[Socrates] Then, I said, the business of us who are the founders of the State will be to compel the best minds to attain that knowledge which we have already shown to be the greatest of all-they must continue to ascend until they arrive at the good; but when they have ascended and seen enough we must not allow them to do as they do now.
[Glaucon] What do you mean?
[Socrates] I mean that they remain in the upper world: but this must not be allowed; they must be made to descend again among the prisoners in the cave, and partake of their labors and honors, whether they are worth having or not.
[Glaucon] But is not this unjust? he said; ought we to give them a worse life, when they might have a better?
[Socrates] You have again forgotten, my friend, I said, the intention of the legislator, who did not aim at making any one class in the State happy above the rest; the happiness was to be in the whole State, and he held the citizens together by persuasion and necessity, making them benefactors of the State, and therefore benefactors of one another; to this end he created them, not to please themselves, but to be his instruments in binding up the State.
[Glaucon] True, he said, I had forgotten.
[Socrates] Observe, Glaucon, that there will be no injustice in compelling our philosophers to have a care and providence of others; we shall explain to them that in other States, men of their class are not obliged to share in the toils of politics: and this is reasonable, for they grow up at their own sweet will, and the government would rather not have them. Being self-taught, they cannot be expected to show any gratitude for a culture which they have never received. But we have brought you into the world to be rulers of the hive, kings of yourselves and of the other citizens, and have educated you far better and more perfectly than they have been educated, and you are better able to share in the double duty. Wherefore each of you, when his turn comes, must go down to the general underground abode, and get the habit of seeing in the dark. When you have acquired the habit, you will see ten thousand times better than the inhabitants of the cave, and you will know what the several images are, and what they represent, because you have seen the beautiful and just and good in their truth. And thus our State which is also yours will be a reality, and not a dream only, and will be administered in a spirit unlike that of other States, in which men fight with one another about shadows only and are distracted in the struggle for power, which in their eyes is a great good. Whereas the truth is that the State in which the rulers are most reluctant to govern is always the best and most quietly governed, and the State in which they are most eager, the worst.
[Glaucon] Quite true, he replied.
[Socrates] And will our pupils, when they hear this, refuse to take their turn at the toils of State, when they are allowed to spend the greater part of their time with one another in the heavenly light?
[Glaucon] Impossible, he answered; for they are just men, and the commands which we impose upon them are just; there can be no doubt that every one of them will take office as a stern necessity, and not after the fashion of our present rulers of State.
[Socrates] Yes, my friend, I said; and there lies the point. You must contrive for your future rulers another and a better life than that of a ruler, and then you may have a well-ordered State; for only in the State which offers this, will they rule who are truly rich, not in silver and gold, but in virtue and wisdom, which are the true blessings of life. Whereas if they go to the administration of public affairs, poor and hungering after the' own private advantage, thinking that hence they are to snatch the chief good, order there can never be; for they will be fighting about office, and the civil and domestic broils which thus arise will be the ruin of the rulers themselves and of the whole State.
[Glaucon] Most true, he replied.
[Socrates] And the only life which looks down upon the life of political ambition is that of true philosophy. Do you know of any other?
[Glaucon] Indeed, I do not, he said.
[Socrates] And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight.
[Glaucon] No question.
[Socrates] Who then are those whom we shall compel to be guardians? Surely they will be the men who are wisest about affairs of State, and by whom the State is best administered, and who at the same time have other honors and another and a better life than that of politics?
[Glaucon] They are the men, and I will choose them, he replied.
[Socrates] And now shall we consider in what way such guardians will be produced, and how they are to be brought from darkness to light, -- as some are said to have ascended from the world below to the gods?
[Glaucon] By all means, he replied.
[Socrates] The process, I said, is not the turning over of an oyster-shell, but the turning round of a soul passing from a day which is little better than night to the true day of being, that is, the ascent from below, which we affirm to be true philosophy?
[Glaucon] Quite so.

[BlairForceDejuan]

All the world's a cave my friend.

[Parker2112]

All the world's a cave my friend.

the imprtant thing is to stop watching puppet shows on the cave wall and turn towards the light.

[Parker2112]

sheeples called out during B.C. times. And the more things change, the more they stay the same

[diego]

have your read the whole thing? Its excellent work, though it can also be read as a blueprint for fascist states (happiness and justice come from the illusion of equality- in your terminology, power to the sheeple). after all, who is stopping a mad man from declaring himself a philosopher king? a moderate? not likely. in any case, The Republic is an amazingly insightful book.

[DJ Mbenga]

so glad i wasnt a pol sci or philosophy major

[Parker2112]

this allegory is a message to enlighten the masses and an instruction on how to control the masses all in one.

Its no wonder classical education ceased in the 1950's and 60's for everyone but the upper crust.

Its no wonder wealth keeps flowing up and the masses will soon find themselves like the native tribes of this country...destitute and without a purpose.

Not much enlightenment happening, but there is a hell of a ot of manipulation occurring through MSM, and Big govt owned by bigger corps.

The Iraq war is proof positive these concepts are still being used against the public.

[MannyIsGod]

And yet you advocate libertarianism. How do you not see the disconnect?

[Parker2112]

And yet you advocate libertarianism. How do you not see the disconnect?

the fact that you would discard the "uneducated" masses rather than trying to enlighten through education and political reform via libertarianism says you dont think people are worth the effort.

You are a naysayer, plain and simple, advocating for the status quo. But the funny thing, this very tendency on your part says you are prone to staying in the dark yourself.

You are just trying to find excuses to stay in the cave.

[Blake]

You are a naysayer, plain and simple, advocating for the status quo.

so by following Plato you are removed from sheeple status?

cool.

[Parker2112]

I dont follow Plato. But I dont try to find every possible way to discard what he said because it has inconvenient implications either. Do you discard the video? If so, why?

[Blake]

I dont follow Plato. But I dont try to find every possible way to discard what he said because it has inconvenient implications either. Do you discard the video? If so, why?

I didn't watch the video. I'm sure there are some good things in it.

You went out of your way to toot Plato's horn and didn't really offer up any problems with what he said. Seems pretty sheepish to me. Just sayin.

[MannyIsGod]

the fact that you would discard the "uneducated" masses rather than trying to enlighten through education and political reform via libertarianism says you dont think people are worth the effort.

You are a naysayer, plain and simple, advocating for the status quo. But the funny thing, this very tendency on your part says you are prone to staying in the dark yourself.

You are just trying to find excuses to stay in the cave.


No, you're acting as if the prisoners in the cave can make choices about the sun without ever having seen it.

You infer a great deal and you almost always infer it incorrectly. You try to act as though the residents of this forum are the prisoners in the cave and that you're the one coming back to enlighten us all because your ego knows no bounds. I have a large ego, as do many here, and yet you somehow make us all look puny in the presence of yours.

Your main mistake is believing that libertarianism is the door way to education and political reform when in fact it is the result. A libertarian system with an uneducated and apathetic populace is ripe for manipulation and somehow you don't ever see that.

I'm not for the status quo in the least and the fact that I think your political philosophies are foolish doesn't change that.

[Parker2112]

I didn't watch the video. I'm sure there are some good things in it.

You went out of your way to toot Plato's horn and didn't really offer up any problems with what he said. Seems pretty sheepish to me. Just sayin.

actually, I did. read my post above about this providing the elite segment of society with instructions on how to keep the masses in the dark.

take a look at the vid when you get the chance. it wont bite.

[Parker2112]

No, you're acting as if the prisoners in the cave can make choices about the sun without ever having seen it.

You infer a great deal and you almost always infer it incorrectly. You try to act as though the residents of this forum are the prisoners in the cave and that you're the one coming back to enlighten us all because your ego knows no bounds. I have a large ego, as do many here, and yet you somehow make us all look puny in the presence of yours.

Your main mistake is believing that libertarianism is the door way to education and political reform when in fact it is the result. A libertarian system with an uneducated and apathetic populace is ripe for manipulation and somehow you don't ever see that.

I'm not for the status quo in the least and the fact that I think your political philosophies are foolish doesn't change that.

Manny youre ripe for the plucking by the fascist progressive movement who would step all over the rights of the people who have and whose fathers and grandfathers break their fucking backs to build and keep this country running.

you dont believe in the constitution you hate the idea of respecting the rights of the "unworthy," you would treat them as they deserve.

you would rather be a part of the ruling class than be a part of the restoration of this country to her prior greatness. You would shit on the constitution if it meant you had to put up with the inconvenience of problems created by "lesser men." Fuck their freedom, it doesnt count...they are uneducated and unworthy.

Well, good thing the constitution still exists to keep grandiose egos like yours in line.

And btw, thanks for showing your true colors in grand fashion! I knew they were in there all along :toast

[Parker2112]

your constant contempt for the masses gives you away, btw.

[Parker2112]

as for the video, I see you as one of the ones in the dark because of your tendency to mock anything that doesnt correspond with the shadows youve been shown. Im not saying I am right about a single thing, I am saying I dont act like a fool when presented with new and different info. Thats what gives you away as a believer.

[TeyshaBlue]

Manny youre ripe for the plucking by the fascist progressive movement who would step all over the rights of the people who have and whose fathers and grandfathers break their fucking backs to build and keep this country running.

you dont believe in the constitution you hate the idea of respecting the rights of the "unworthy," you would treat them as they deserve.

you would rather be a part of the ruling class than be a part of the restoration of this country to her prior greatness. You would shit on the constitution if it meant you had to put up with the inconvenience of problems created by "lesser men." Fuck their freedom, it doesnt count...they are uneducated and unworthy.

Well, good thing the constitution still exists to keep grandiose egos like yours in line.

And btw, thanks for showing your true colors in grand fashion! I knew they were in there all along :toast

:facepalm:

[MannyIsGod]

Manny youre ripe for the plucking by the fascist progressive movement who would step all over the rights of the people who have and whose fathers and grandfathers break their fucking backs to build and keep this country running.

you dont believe in the constitution you hate the idea of respecting the rights of the "unworthy," you would treat them as they deserve.

you would rather be a part of the ruling class than be a part of the restoration of this country to her prior greatness. You would shit on the constitution if it meant you had to put up with the inconvenience of problems created by "lesser men." Fuck their freedom, it doesnt count...they are uneducated and unworthy.

Well, good thing the constitution still exists to keep grandiose egos like yours in line.

And btw, thanks for showing your true colors in grand fashion! I knew they were in there all along :toast

Where exactly do I shit on the constitution? Where exactly do I shit on the rights of the "unworthy"?

[MannyIsGod]

your constant contempt for the masses gives you away, btw.

LOL Yes your reference to them as sheeple surely marks you as a champion of the people.

Me stating the fact that our people are uneducated and apathetic is not contempt for them but in fact contempt for the situation and the system that put it into place. I have constantly argued for more education in order to have a more informed population in order to have more accountability of government and corporations in general but you seemed to have missed this on your way to pronouncing me as some sort of a seeker of a throne.

[MannyIsGod]

as for the video, I see you as one of the ones in the dark because of your tendency to mock anything that doesnt correspond with the shadows youve been shown. Im not saying I am right about a single thing, I am saying I dont act like a fool when presented with new and different info. Thats what gives you away as a believer.

Parker, I don't mock everything that is foreign to me in the least. You may see it that way because I mock your ridiculous chemtrail conspiracy and your very naive political views but contrary to your thinking you are not the center of the world and all that encompasses it.

There are others in this forum whom have swayed me on many a topic long before you even showed your fact here. Go back 5 years in this forums archives and you'll find me a proponent of libertarianism. My philosophies have grown due to the gaining of more knowledge and seeing the real world effects of deregulation and have thus moved away from ever thinking libertarianism could ever work with the current status of our population.

You're not presenting new info, Parker. I don't reject it because its different. I reject it because I've learned its short comings in a very real setting outside of a philosophy class or Ron Paul book.

You find me 3 on a crowded street who can explain to you what the bankers did to cause the financial collapse 3 years ago before we even talk about the success of libertarianism.

[MannyIsGod]

Parker, why is your opinion almost summarily dismissed on this forum now?

Is it because we just refuse to acknowledge the truth in your information due to its difference and the inability to fit it in our paradigm?

Or are there other reasons?

If you believe your message to be a good one, do you consider yourself a good messenger?

If the members or the Spurstalk political forum reject your message how do you feel the general public will feel about it?

[Blake]

actually, I did. read my post above about this providing the elite segment of society with instructions on how to keep the masses in the dark.

eh, you obviously feel the benefits of enlightening people about the cave outweigh the possibility of the elite misusing this important information.

Since you are obviously not elite, looks to me that you are sheepish to what Plato is saying.


take a look at the vid when you get the chance. it wont bite.

I recall the cave.

The failure in it is the arrogant assumption that he can predict what the average person would do coming out of a very specific situation.

My arrogant assumption would be that a person coming out of the cave where all the shadows were fake, would naturally assume that the sun itself and everything else around is also fake.

just curious, do you see yourself as being the person that was released from the cave and are trying to tell the others still in the cave of the real world?

[Blake]

as for the video, I see you as one of the ones in the dark because of your tendency to mock anything that doesnt correspond with the shadows youve been shown. Im not saying I am right about a single thing, I am saying I dont act like a fool when presented with new and different info. Thats what gives you away as a believer.

so you do see yourself as the man released from the cave.

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha.

:lmao

[MannyIsGod]

so you do see yourself as the man released from the cave.

bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha.

:lmao

Its hilarious isn't it?

[Blake]

Its hilarious isn't it?

My cave has 4th of July celebrations in January.

[Parker2112]

to say I am enlightened is to say I have the truth. Which I readily admit I dont. I search for it.

But while we may all be in the dark (which Manny nor RG would ever admit; who has the ego?), the fact that I dont mock those ideas that dont get any airplay on MSM says enough.

And the fact that Manny, RG, DMX7, WC, and a handful of others do mock anything that isn't covered by MSM speaks volumes as well.

As I see it, the common thread shared by all men: we all have egos, and we want to study and master our surrounding to the greatest extent possible.

But the lesson of the Cave is that we can only master that which is before us. And if we reject and ridicule anything new simply because it has never been presented before us before, we subject ourselves to being controlled in the way that the puppeteers did in the short. For Manny, WC, and RG, you confirm your place in the world-according-to-Plato with your ridicule of all things not mentioned on Fox or CNBC.

And I know that very likely we are all in the dark. Ha! How can we make it to daylight if our media, govt, commerce, and currency are controlled completely?

Understand the implications here. I am not saying I know the truth. I am saying stop posturing as if you handfull of "United" masters-of-your-own-reality do, and be suspicious of every passing shadow. Because that is confirmation that you are acting as miserable cave dwellers, turning to mock any who challenges your mastery of the shadow reality that must be the one and only, because you have mastered it.

Now, tell me, who has the ego again?

[Parker2112]

My cave has 4th of July celebrations in January.

Again the mocking is the tell-tale sign.

[MannyIsGod]

You have the ego because according to you rejecting your theories and postulations is akin to believing you know it all.

I mock your chemtrail position and I'll do so all day long. You believe that to be due to a flaw on my end and not a flaw in the data you put forth. Thats your option but one easily refuted. You don't see our rejection of what you say as an indicator at the level of ridiculousness of it but instead see us as unfairly rejecting it because the MSM doesn't report on it when its clearly been pointed out thats not the case.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Plato's metaphysics is based on nothing but his imagination and the rest of that book is a justification for elitist totalitarianism.

Wave theory and Maxwell's equations are enlightening. Being fascinated by shadows is not.

[MannyIsGod]

One of your main mistakes is only allowing that the mocking and ridicule you receive is due to your message being different or obscure. I've tried to explain this to you before, but perhaps its the way you deliver the message. In almost every thread you make, your too busy talking to actually have a conversation. At some point that annoys the shit out of people and they fall back and ridicule and mocking, but you aren't the least bit introspective in looking for the reasoning behind it.

[Parker2112]

You have the ego because according to you rejecting your theories and postulations is akin to believing you know it all.

I mock your chemtrail position and I'll do so all day long. You believe that to be due to a flaw on my end and not a flaw in the data you put forth. Thats your option but one easily refuted. You don't see our rejection of what you say as an indicator at the level of ridiculousness of it but instead see us as unfairly rejecting it because the MSM doesn't report on it when its clearly been pointed out thats not the case.

Your constant reference to "all of us" reveals your need to be a part of something greater than yourself. That need manifests in your rejection of anything outside of the mainstream paradigm.

If you insist on the mocking, you might do some introspection and try to determine exactly what seperates you from those in the cave.

We have already shown that simply saying "my position is superior, and your position is laughable, so you will be mocked" doesnt foreclose on the possibility that the reality you have mastered.... one without chemtrails, to be specific... is the true reality. And yet you arrogantly dismiss any conclusion that hasnt made your nightly news...

So what is left to seperate you from a cave dweller?

Looks like you have the mocking part down, and you have the need to join those around you in consensus, as the cave dwellers did in Plato's imagination.

ME: I admit my potential for fallibility. I believe the chemtrail phenomena is real, but I dont need you to believe. I also am fine to admit we dont have all the info in front of us, but I insist we have enough to continue this line of questioning.

VS.

YOU: You need to stamp out the credibility of anyone who mentions this idea on the other hand. You have a burning desire to not only attack the speaker of any such idea, but also to rally a united front to your cause, to intimidate the speaker and ensure elimination of the idea from any discussion altogether.

[Parker2112]

One of your main mistakes is only allowing that the mocking and ridicule you receive is due to your message being different or obscure. I've tried to explain this to you before, but perhaps its the way you deliver the message. In almost every thread you make, your too busy talking to actually have a conversation. At some point that annoys the shit out of people and they fall back and ridicule and mocking, but you aren't the least bit introspective in looking for the reasoning behind it.

this is horseshit. check the record. in every one of these threads, the downward spiral starts with the "tin hat" comments.

And to be honest, I present these threads to challenge the community.

[admiralsnackbar]

this allegory is a message to enlighten the masses and an instruction on how to control the masses all in one.




But the lesson of the Cave is that we can only master that which is before us. And if we reject and ridicule anything new simply because it has never been presented before us before, we subject ourselves to being controlled in the way that the puppeteers did in the short. For Manny, WC, and RG, you confirm your place in the world-according-to-Plato with your ridicule of all things not mentioned on Fox or CNBC.


Most people move away from saying what "the" lesson is in any allegory is since, by design, allegories lend themselves to all kinds of readings, and anyone who reads the words of Socrates learns almost immediately that he is not exactly an honest interlocutor, and that among his most cherished pedagogical tools are irony and being a prick.

That said, while you're as entitled to your interpretation as the rest of us, I think that by viewing the cave as a description of how people are controlled politically, you're not giving the allegory a fair shake or understanding why it's had such legs in the history of philosophy as a big part of metaphysics.

Think about it: if you can only master what is before you, and all you see/know is shadows, then you neither know anything, nor really know that you know nothing. That includes you, me, and everyone else -- who have little more than conversation to make sense of what they are seeing, but no direct experience with Truth -- only it's emanations.

He then creates a character who has been accustomed to the light and puts him in the cave, such that his vision is impaired by the dark of the cave. Since Socrates explains that the light is a metaphor for mightiest of all ideals (The Good) and that the figures projected on the cave wall represent specific instantiations of perfect metaphysical ideas, how can this literally enlightened person understand the world of half-truths in the cave, or it him? If we're building the perfect state, we need a perfect leader like this enlightened man we've introduced to the dark -- but what is the purpose of a polity that cannot strive after the same true ideals about The Good their leader possesses?

We're already pretty far afield of political manipulation or human deception in any conventional form, wouldn't you agree? So the discussion becomes how do we recognize and communicate truth, and the answer is to have a common piece between both the light and shaded areas -- a person who comes from darkness and is drawn out toward light in a way none of us drudges are capable of doing or knowing to do, who can then explain the divine order to us in terms we can grasp.

There are many (myself among them) who would say that the reason the ideal republic they try to build in their conversation is ultimately deemed a failure is that Truth cannot be taught, only recognized/remembered on a metaphysical level and strived for through rasoning. In other words,there will never be a perfect republic any more than there will ever be a philosopher king, there will only be the process by which it and he should be created. So the allegory becomes a pedagogical "likely story," to incentivize the act of becoming wiser through dialectical reasoning (ie conversation), not the description of some schmuck who will come to save us one day.

[Th'Pusher]

It seems both manny and Parker can agree that educating the currently system-supressed appethetic masses can go a long way to resolving what both appear to believe is the root cause of being bound to the cave.

Parker, Manny, how do you suggest going about educating the masses bound to the cave considering the confines of the current system?

[Parker2112]

Most people move away from saying what "the" lesson is in any allegory is since, by design, allegories lend themselves to all kinds of readings, and anyone who reads the words of Socrates learns almost immediately that he is not exactly an honest interlocutor, and that among his most cherished pedagogical tools are irony and being a prick.

That said, while you're as entitled to your interpretation as the rest of us, I think that by viewing the cave as a description of how people are controlled politically, you're not giving the allegory a fair shake or understanding why it's had such legs in the history of philosophy as a big part of metaphysics.

Think about it: if you can only master what is before you, and all you see/know is shadows, then you neither know anything, nor really know that you know nothing. That includes you, me, and everyone else -- who have little more than conversation to make sense of what they are seeing, but no direct experience with Truth -- only it's emanations.

He then creates a character who has been accustomed to the light and puts him in the cave, such that his vision is impaired by the dark of the cave. Since Socrates explains that the light is a metaphor for mightiest of all ideals (The Good) and that the figures projected on the cave wall represent specific instantiations of perfect metaphysical ideas, how can this literally enlightened person understand the world of half-truths in the cave, or it him? If we're building the perfect state, we need a perfect leader like this enlightened man we've introduced to the dark -- but what is the purpose of a polity that cannot strive after the same true ideals about The Good their leader possesses?

We're already pretty far afield of political manipulation or human deception in any conventional form, wouldn't you agree? So the discussion becomes how do we recognize and communicate truth, and the answer is to have a common piece between both the light and shaded areas -- a person who comes from darkness and is drawn out toward light in a way none of us drudges are capable of doing or knowing to do, who can then explain the divine order to us in terms we can grasp.

There are many (myself among them) who would say that the reason the ideal republic they try to build in their conversation is ultimately deemed a failure is that Truth cannot be taught, only recognized/remembered on a metaphysical level and strived for through rasoning. In other words,there will never be a perfect republic any more than there will ever be a philosopher king, there will only be the process by which it and he should be created. So the allegory becomes a pedagogical "likely story," to incentivize the act of becoming wiser through dialectical reasoning (ie conversation), not the description of some schmuck who will come to save us one day.

I like your work :tu

[Parker2112]

It seems both manny and Parker can agree that educating the currently system-supressed appethetic masses can go a long way to resolving what both appear to believe is the root cause of being bound to the cave.

Parker, Manny, how do you suggest going about educating the masses bound to the cave considering the confines of the current system?

I think we have a bit of a renaissance going on as we speak.

I think thats why the govt is preparing to start censoring the net.

Knowledge is power. People in the know ask questions. They dont stand pat on what they are told by their government officials.

Knowledge is awful contagious. I dont think we can trust our education system to educate our kids. We have to take it upon ourselves to educate both ourselves and our kids.

Ultimately, as people suffer more at the hands of government/big corps, they will begin to seek the sun.

http://www.37signals.com/svn/images/wfran08big.gif

[Parker2112]

that pic is from 2005, btw...but they are experiencing riots this year as well.

Pusher, what do you think education would entail?

[Th'Pusher]

You say you want a revolution? I believe that revolution comes from working within the existing political system as it can in a democracy, which we just so happen to live in. Not by scrapping it to give rights back to the states and return to a political system we have already evolved past as a nation.

With regard to political education, I actually agree the tea party has brought about a bit of a renaissance with regard to interest in the federal deficit. I'd suggest Obama capitalize on that interest by making hard decisions and convince the American people that we can't continue to live in debt and both sides are going to have to give. If he can do that, he'll se hailed as one of the greatest presidents of all time.

Scrapping the current system to go back to states rights while requiring personal responsibility in our media controlled culture is not a reasonable option at this point. I don't believe there is anything elitist about that point of view. That's just the current reality and the framework we must work within. I don't think you realistically work within that framework.

[johnsmith]

I've said it before but I feel it important to emphasize particularly in this thread.......Parker.......you make this forum even dumber.

I didn't think it possible, but you've managed to dumb down the dumbest fucking forum on the internet.


However, on a positive note, you managed to bring together both the 'left' and the 'right' on this forum with a common denominator......that common denominator of course being that everyone here thinks you're a fucking idiot.

:toast

[TeyshaBlue]

It seems both manny and Parker can agree that educating the currently system-supressed appethetic masses can go a long way to resolving what both appear to believe is the root cause of being bound to the cave.

Parker, Manny, how do you suggest going about educating the masses bound to the cave considering the confines of the current system?

I recommend hand grenades.

[TE]

Most people move away from saying what "the" lesson is in any allegory is since, by design, allegories lend themselves to all kinds of readings, and anyone who reads the words of Socrates learns almost immediately that he is not exactly an honest interlocutor, and that among his most cherished pedagogical tools are irony and being a prick.

That said, while you're as entitled to your interpretation as the rest of us, I think that by viewing the cave as a description of how people are controlled politically, you're not giving the allegory a fair shake or understanding why it's had such legs in the history of philosophy as a big part of metaphysics.

Think about it: if you can only master what is before you, and all you see/know is shadows, then you neither know anything, nor really know that you know nothing. That includes you, me, and everyone else -- who have little more than conversation to make sense of what they are seeing, but no direct experience with Truth -- only it's emanations.

He then creates a character who has been accustomed to the light and puts him in the cave, such that his vision is impaired by the dark of the cave. Since Socrates explains that the light is a metaphor for mightiest of all ideals (The Good) and that the figures projected on the cave wall represent specific instantiations of perfect metaphysical ideas, how can this literally enlightened person understand the world of half-truths in the cave, or it him? If we're building the perfect state, we need a perfect leader like this enlightened man we've introduced to the dark -- but what is the purpose of a polity that cannot strive after the same true ideals about The Good their leader possesses?

We're already pretty far afield of political manipulation or human deception in any conventional form, wouldn't you agree? So the discussion becomes how do we recognize and communicate truth, and the answer is to have a common piece between both the light and shaded areas -- a person who comes from darkness and is drawn out toward light in a way none of us drudges are capable of doing or knowing to do, who can then explain the divine order to us in terms we can grasp.

There are many (myself among them) who would say that the reason the ideal republic they try to build in their conversation is ultimately deemed a failure is that Truth cannot be taught, only recognized/remembered on a metaphysical level and strived for through rasoning. In other words,there will never be a perfect republic any more than there will ever be a philosopher king, there will only be the process by which it and he should be created. So the allegory becomes a pedagogical "likely story," to incentivize the act of becoming wiser through dialectical reasoning (ie conversation), not the description of some schmuck who will come to save us one day.

:wakeup

[Winehole23]

admires the example of AdmiralSnackbar, but takes it as a sign of cultural degeneracy that his accurate precis of the parable is met only with dumb admiration and smilies. Clearly, some people over-relied on the vid.

Someone else, clearly, read their shit and mastered it.




(Where in former times the conversation merely began, it now screeches to an abrupt halt. Sad, isn't it?)

[Blake]

admires the example of AdmiralSnackbar, but takes it as a sign of cultural degeneracy that his accurate precis of the parable is met only with dumb admiration and smilies. Clearly, some people over-relied on the vid.

Someone else, clearly, read their shit and mastered it.




(Where in former times the conversation merely began, it now screeches to an abrupt halt. Sad, isn't it?)

AdmiralSnackbar put out a very well thought out post which is par for the course for him.

I agree that the perfect republic will never be attained, but not just because the people that attempt it will always fail to find Truth. It's that there will always be a disagreement as to what Truth is.

If people want to believe the Truth is the cave, then so be it. Who am I to tell them that they are living a lie if I'm not sure what Truth really is myself?

Is the red pill the reality or the illusion?

[Parker2112]

admires the example of AdmiralSnackbar, but takes it as a sign of cultural degeneracy that his accurate precis of the parable is met only with dumb admiration and smilies. Clearly, some people over-relied on the vid.

Someone else, clearly, read their shit and mastered it.




(Where in former times the conversation merely began, it now screeches to an abrupt halt. Sad, isn't it?)

Horseshit, as usual.

I didn't even say I agreed with his take. Fact is I dont. His analysis doesnt deal with the manipulation of the cave dwellers by those setting up the whole scenario. I just admire the fact that he put some thought into it. More than can be said for you, Manny, or RG. So fuck off WH.

[admiralsnackbar]

Can you point to the quotes on which you're basing your claim that the scenario is being set up by a person or people, Park?

[Parker2112]

Can you point to the quotes on which you're basing your claim that the scenario is being set up by a person or people, Park?

I was wrong. I jumped to conclusions, snackbar. I need to re-read with your above post in mind.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Plato's allegory of the cave is the beginning of an entire system of Western epistemological (system of knowing) hegemony, and it was designed so as to provide a justification for the elite's to rule over the people. The idea that one cannot know what one does not study intently is, frankly, insulting and it leaves all of one's feelings, emotions, hopes, and aspirations out of the educational arena. This is why expertise is developed on the basis of one's learned credentials instead of one's beliefs, experiences, and feelings about the world. For instance, the Supreme Court is made up of some of the most learned men and women in the country, and yet Clarence Thomas, Antonin Scalia, John Roberts, and (sadly) Kennedy all have a tendency to yearn for the dark ages when torture, corporate control over the government, absolute state authority, and aristocracy were the rule of the day.

Plato was the myth master though, and it is no coincidence that he and aristotle served/continue to serve as the foundational justification for Western systems of hierarchy to this very day.

[SnakeBoy]

The failure in it is the arrogant assumption that he can predict what the average person would do coming out of a very specific situation.

My arrogant assumption would be that a person coming out of the cave where all the shadows were fake, would naturally assume that the sun itself and everything else around is also fake.


My arrogant assumption would be that a person coming out of the cave where all the shadows were fake, would naturally make plans to kill the motherfucker who kept them chained up in the cave.