The growing hatred on Manu Ginobli

[myhc]

Is it just me, or has anyone noticed in the past couple of weeks an intense public hatred of Manu Ginobli? I've been reading the recent ESPN chat and other sports boards and every time the Spurs are brought up, its "I hate Manu because he's out of control and he flops too much." All the media and basketball analysts love the guy but its the opposite with the general public. I don't get it. Yes, he flops but not any different than what other teams and players do. Or am I wrong on that? Ric Bucher addressed this question and said people hate him because while he does flop and gets away with it, he is also a winner and a great player and the two together leaves a conflicted fan. That and he's also a foreign player. I think fans are just jealous. They would love to have a guy like Manu on their team. What do you guys think of all this?

[TOP-CHERRY]

I think fans are just jealous.

DING, DING, DING!!

[Man In Black]

CASUAL FANS DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT BASKETBALL. All they do is get into a big circle-jerk with other casual fans and then regurgitate their drivel and nonsense until enough of them affect a media guy who joins in on their drivel then writes about it thus perpetuating more drivel.

[tlongII]

That's ridiculous. Fans don't hate Ginobili...far from it. I love his game and everyone I know likes him as well.

[Catharsis]

I love his energy, but HATE his energy. He doesn't just flop, he flings his arms any time he's bumped. Basketball is a contact sport, you're going to get touched. But the way he reacts is dishonest, and a little sad. I have no problem with him going 100% and dunking over players, but if you're going to try and draw a foul, at least have the respect of your opponent to let it be a legit foul instead of trying to sell it.

In game 2 Manu and Nash clipped each other's shoulders. Manu went flying to the ground as his he was hit my a semi. There is no way that Nash had the force to do that to him. Of course the ref saw the reaction and called it an offensive foul. It's that kind of stuff that drives people insane. He's good enough to play and put up the same numbers without the flops.

Just my two cents.

[SWC Bonfire]

He may do some acting on occasion, but sometimes he really does get hammered when he goes to the rack.

Call him a method actor.

[myhc]

That's ridiculous. Fans don't hate Ginobili...far from it. I love his game and everyone I know likes him as well.

Maybe I should rephrase that as a growing hatred for him. I know plenty of people who love the guy too.

Aaron (phx): Ric, Two questions: Is Vlade Divac the father of Manu Ginobili? And on a completely unrelated note... Do you think the slight wind that my fingers created as they typed this sentence just now was powerful enough to knock Ginobili to the ground wherever he may be right now? --Bitter in Phoenix (And maybe a little jealous too?? :lol )

Ric Bucher: (3:21 PM ET ) A lot of people are hating on Manu because he's recognized what the refs will and won't call and he's taking advantage of it If he were a no-talent guy, I'd have a much bigger issue with what he's doing. The Sonics collectively flopped more than any team I've seen in a while in their series with the Spurs. I had a much tougher time watching Reggie Evans bludgeon guys one minute and then fall over, as Rick Adelman said, when the AC came on the next.

Bucher brings up a good point there.

[Catharsis]

He may do some acting on occasion, but sometimes he really does get hammered when he goes to the rack.

Call him a method actor.
No doubt that if you're going 100 mph, the point of impact is going to be greater. However, he'll drive around someone and if his arm is even slightly touched, both will go up in the air as if he was molested. That's the biggest problem I have with him.

But I wouldn't complain if he was on my team. :)

[Useruser666]

I love his energy, but HATE his energy. He doesn't just flop, he flings his arms any time he's bumped. Basketball is a contact sport, you're going to get touched. But the way he reacts is dishonest, and a little sad. I have no problem with him going 100% and dunking over players, but if you're going to try and draw a foul, at least have the respect of your opponent to let it be a legit foul instead of trying to sell it.

In game 2 Manu and Nash clipped each other's shoulders. Manu went flying to the ground as his he was hit my a semi. There is no way that Nash had the force to do that to him. Of course the ref saw the reaction and called it an offensive foul. It's that kind of stuff that drives people insane. He's good enough to play and put up the same numbers without the flops.

Just my two cents.

95% of the time, even when Manu exaggerates he HAS gotten hit. He doesn't flop unless something happened almost all of the time. He isn't a D Fish for god's sakes. He gets punished on a regular basis for his fearless style of play. Why do you think the other Spurs have given him the nick name they have?

[MiNuS]

I guess its that subconscious reminder of the "flip-flop" Bush used against Kerry last November.
Then G Karl brought it up in the 1st round and it catched fire. Since then people cannot see the value that we see Manu brings to the Spurs. It's that X-tra something G-force brings to the table most players don't have.

Last year I TOO hated anytime Fisher in L.A. would draw a foul. He also was good at it.
When I saw Vlade Divac in the free agency I thought he would be a GREAT addition to the Spurs.One of his qualities is precisely being the MASTER in flopping. Great ACTOR.

Whenever G-Man throws a three or does any of his kamakazi moves in the paint or gives one of those killer assists,I don't think anyone is thinking "flopper".

Manu is in an enviable position and people just can't take it! SO they Hate him.

[TOP-CHERRY]

But I wouldn't complain if he was on my team. :)

Nobody would. ;)

[Catharsis]

I had a much tougher time watching Reggie Evans bludgeon guys one minute and then fall over, as Rick Adelman said, when the AC came on the next.
Reggie Evans is amazing. One momment he'll knock Shaq to the floor, the next Speedy Claxton is knocking him to the floor. Poor brother can't get a break!

[FromWayDowntown]

I love his energy, but HATE his energy. He doesn't just flop, he flings his arms any time he's bumped. Basketball is a contact sport, you're going to get touched. But the way he reacts is dishonest, and a little sad. I have no problem with him going 100% and dunking over players, but if you're going to try and draw a foul, at least have the respect of your opponent to let it be a legit foul instead of trying to sell it.

In game 2 Manu and Nash clipped each other's shoulders. Manu went flying to the ground as his he was hit my a semi. There is no way that Nash had the force to do that to him. Of course the ref saw the reaction and called it an offensive foul. It's that kind of stuff that drives people insane. He's good enough to play and put up the same numbers without the flops.

Just my two cents.

You can't deny, however, that Manu gets hit, hit often, and hit hard when he attacks the basket. If he was just focused on flopping around, he wouldn't be the deadly finisher that he is. He takes hits and continues to go at the rim, but he does sometimes exaggerate contact when he can. But tell me what great finisher doesn't sometimes exaggerate contact?

Sometimes that "exaggeration" is necessary to get whistles blown. He's not like Amare, who drew ridiculously ticky-tack calls in Game 2 on both Duncan (#4) and Horry, both of whom played with arms extended straight up and were called for fouls when Amare initiated the relatively minor contact. If the officials are going to call that stuff, and they won't give a call to an aggressive penetrator who's hit on his way to the rim, the penetrator can either just give up on getting calls, or he can exaggerate the contact to show that he's been hit. Smart finishers mostly do the latter.

People hated that crap about Stockton, too. But Stockton just took advantage of what was available and most advantageous to him and his team. I think people exaggerate the Manu flops in this post-season, keying off of Karl's whining in round 1 and that bad exaggeration on the AD play in Game 3 in Seattle. Fair enough; the guy does occasionally flop. But on Tuesday, Nash ran right at him, out of control and laid a screen on Manu, and basically knew he was going to get called. He almost seemed to make the play in an effort to start a conversation with the official.

You can say that there's no way Nash had the force to bowl over Ginobili, but at least that's plausible. Unlike, say, the idea of Tony Parker bowling over Danny Fortson (in the Seattle series that the Spurs played). It's not like he's Dirk Nowitzki, who flops and then gets T'd up for arguing about a no-call on his flop.

[picnroll]

Lakers of yesterday, Bulls, Pistons and Celtics of old were widely hated, players and team alike. Why? Because they were great. Spurs are hated. Team's boring. Duncan's boring. Duncan gets all the calls. Bowen's dirty. Manu flops. Why because they are great. If the Spurs sucked nobody would say anything or care. It's great to be hated. Embrace the hatred.

[Solid D]

A lot of people get irritated with a player who seems to get to (seemingly) all the loose balls, and finish on shots where he is knocked down. This, to go along with the hair-flying whiplash he exhibits when someone shoves him on a screen rub.

If Manu were on the Lakers, how many of you would just love to see somebody slap Manu when the Spurs seem to get a stop & Manu twists in between two Spurs and outhustles them for an offensive rebound?

He takes away the expected outcome of a play, any play...and that is frustrating.

[Catharsis]

I've noticed that flopping has become bigger in the league the last couple years. In the past you had player like Danny Ainge who were good at it, but they kept it to a reaction from taking a hit. Now some players are actually creating the contact and acting as if they're the victim. I'm not saying this his how Many plays, just a trend in the league. One thing, however, is the Spurs already had a good flopper in Horry. Manu is slowly surpassing him. I have to say I laughed my ass off when I saw Parker fall to the ground the other night after Phx made a shot. It looked like he was trying to get into position with Duncan and the contact with Duncan made him go to the ground. That looked like a flop and I don't know if he realized that the contact was with his own player. Either way, it was funny.

I can seriously see the league implementing rules aimed at preventing flopping. I can also see the league changing the rules so that a defender can't be called for a foul if they do not initiate the contact--ala Reggie Miller. Wait, isn't that already a rule? :)

[MiNuS]

Lakers of yesterday, Bulls, Pistons and Celtics of old were widely hated, players and team alike. Why? Because they were great. Spurs are hated. Team's boring. Duncan's boring. Duncan gets all the calls. Bowen's dirty. Manu flops. Why because they are great. If the Spurs sucked nobody would say anything or care. It's great to be hated. Embrace the hatred.


Yeah, who hates the Hawks,Bobcats,Clippers,Raptors or Suns?No ONE!

[myhc]

I guess its that subconscious reminder of the "flip-flop" Bush used against Kerry last November.
Then G Karl brought it up in the 1st round and it catched fire. Since then people cannot see the value that we see Manu brings to the Spurs. It's that X-tra something G-force brings to the table most players don't have.


That's a good point. You start with a small flame and when it gets going, nothing can stop it. Now all anybody can see is Manu's flopping. Bucher just addressed the same thing in his chat. Here's secret Manu hater John from Providence.


John (Providence, RI): Ric, in regards to Christine's question about why is the game not as exciting as in the 80's or 90's. The players of today are more worried about flopping to get fouls called and not playing like men. In other words, todays game is for actors, not men. Todays game has no flow, since there are so many fouls being called and there a ton of time-outs.

Ric Bucher: (3:48 PM ET ) john, you haven't been watching. there's more flow to the game this year than in the past 10 years. the game ground to a halt in the mid-90s with defense that required every player to put 30 pounds of muscle on to survive and get free, rather than work on his J and ball skills. the game is in a great place right now. Let's just hope there isn't a lockout. I was told last night the feeling is there won't be.

[spur219]

People either hate Manu because he crushed their teams in the playoffs or because he is finally starting to emerge as a superstar and some jealous fans can't handle that.

[Catharsis]

You can't deny, however, that Manu gets hit, hit often, and hit hard when he attacks the basket. If he was just focused on flopping around, he wouldn't be the deadly finisher that he is. He takes hits and continues to go at the rim, but he does sometimes exaggerate contact when he can. But tell me what great finisher doesn't sometimes exaggerate contact?
Shaq.



Sometimes that "exaggeration" is necessary to get whistles blown. He's not like Amare, who drew ridiculously ticky-tack calls in Game 2 on both Duncan (#4) and Horry, both of whom played with arms extended straight up and were called for fouls when Amare initiated the relatively minor contact.

Actually, on many of those fouls the call is because two hands are on him--which is viewed as holding. You can't jump as a defender with one hand in the air trying to block the shot and the other holding on to the player. But Amare doesn't get the call any more than Duncan.



If the officials are going to call that stuff, and they won't give a call to an aggressive penetrator who's hit on his way to the rim, the penetrator can either just give up on getting calls, or he can exaggerate the contact to show that he's been hit. Smart finishers mostly do the latter.

People hated that crap about Stockton, too. But Stockton just took advantage of what was available and most advantageous to him and his team. I think people exaggerate the Manu flops in this post-season, keying off of Karl's whining in round 1 and that bad exaggeration on the AD play in Game 3 in Seattle. Fair enough; the guy does occasionally flop. But on Tuesday, Nash ran right at him, out of control and laid a screen on Manu, and basically knew he was going to get called. He almost seemed to make the play in an effort to start a conversation with the official.

You can say that there's no way Nash had the force to bowl over Ginobili, but at least that's plausible. Unlike, say, the idea of Tony Parker bowling over Danny Fortson (in the Seattle series that the Spurs played). It's not like he's Dirk Nowitzki, who flops and then gets T'd up for arguing about a no-call on his flop.
I know Manu is getting hit, but when the rational of the playoffs is that the Refs aren't going to call ticky-tac stuff, it misleads them into thinking it's not ticky-tac. That isn't right. Play 100% and take the fall when you're really hit. Many of Manu's poster posed dunks are against the Suns because they don't want to slow down the game with a whistle.

[Catharsis]

Yeah, who hates the Hawks,Bobcats,Clippers,Raptors and Suns?No ONE!
Suns? You're kidding, right?

[TOP-CHERRY]

Suns? You're kidding, right?

They're relatively new to this.. Not much to hate there.

[JUUOT]

I had the manu problem last week.
we were having dinner with some friends and in canada basket fans are just getting blind by nash so after the dinner we start talking basket cause they know i am a spursfan and one start saying manu just flop and puts his heads down until someone fouls him... the usual bullsghit the nuggets started.

Hopefully i had mystilinnvideo and another one Kbaze i think on manu to show . it was already better and the friend starts admitting he was not the kind of player he thought.
So i had to make hime watch a half of a game with me to finally here him admit that they never see the Spurs except when they play the raptors and that manu is an amazing player.

[T Park]

anyone that has a problem with Ginobili or his antics

is just secretly jealous that they dont have HIM on their team.

That simple.


If Ginobili played on the Suns Catharis would be exponging the wonderfull things about Ginobili.

In one ear out the other....

[MiNuS]

Suns? You're kidding, right?

Yes I'm kidding! D'Antoni has NO SPINE. How can you not like a guy
that doesn't even get upset being down 2?

One on one: Ditka Vs D'Antoni

One on one: D'Antoni Vs Dasani bottle


you get me.

[spurschick]

I find it amusing that we now call "flopping", what we used call
"selling the foul". I don't like to bitch about officiating, but I
don't think it's coincidence that officiating in the NBA has become
more questionable in recent years. Good players adapt to the game as it
changes, and the game unfortunately now dictates that players have to
"sell fouls" for them to be called. It's not necessarily what we as
fans want to see, but it is the way the game has evolved and we're just
going to have to live with it and hope that our players are good enough
to use it to their advantage.

[spurster]

I've noticed that flopping has become bigger in the league the last couple years.

....

I can seriously see the league implementing rules aimed at preventing flopping. I can also see the league changing the rules so that a defender can't be called for a foul if they do not initiate the contact--ala Reggie Miller. Wait, isn't that already a rule? :)
This points to standard problems with the refs.

1) If you don't get knocked down hard on the floor, the refs will not call a charge. Players know this, and so the good floppers will take a hit and flop at the same time. It would help a lot if the refs would call charges regardless of whether the defender falls down.

1b) A similar thing is true in general. The refs will often not call hits, but a hit and the player's reaction. If the player doesn't react, the refs think it must not have been that bad. Again, the good floppers will time their flop with the hit.

2) We see a half-dozen replays per game where the dribbler initiates the contact and gets the foul call, and the announcers are pointing it all out, often in praise of the player. This never made sense to me.

[lotr1trekkie]

Manu takes some shots that make me cringe. I think he shouldn't stop what he's doing as soon as the refs start calling all the flagrant fouls that don't get called on him.

[picnroll]

Give it a couple of years of success with the Suns and suddenly everyone will notice and complain that Nash carries the ball on virtually every dribble and Amare initiates contact diving toward the basket on slams and still getting the foul call. Just give it time and success Catharsis.

[rr2418]

I love his energy, but HATE his energy. He doesn't just flop, he flings his arms any time he's bumped. Basketball is a contact sport, you're going to get touched. But the way he reacts is dishonest, and a little sad. I have no problem with him going 100% and dunking over players, but if you're going to try and draw a foul, at least have the respect of your opponent to let it be a legit foul instead of trying to sell it.

In game 2 Manu and Nash clipped each other's shoulders. Manu went flying to the ground as his he was hit my a semi. There is no way that Nash had the force to do that to him. Of course the ref saw the reaction and called it an offensive foul. It's that kind of stuff that drives people insane. He's good enough to play and put up the same numbers without the flops.

Just my two cents.


You know the thing is that "all" players flop! To me, there is no degree or levels in flopping. A flop is a flop, no matter if the player is good at it or sucks at it, it's all the same. Every player, every, every, every player in ALL TEAMS flop! The Lakers, Celtics, Bulls,Sonics, Suns, and yes, the Spurs, just to name a few, they all flop! So, what is dishonest about Manu, when the players on your team flop also? Whether his arms go flying all over the place, it doesn't make a difference. Some players exaggerate more then others. If anything, Manu has probably learned that to get calls in this league, you might have to do a few things what other players in this league have been doing for a long time. So Manu is not dishonest, if he is, then so are all the players in every team. Including yours!

[ALVAREZ6]

Fuck the haters, they are jealous of his skills, leadership, and gold medal.

Fuck 'em all.

I guarantee they would idolize Manu if he played on their team.

[smeagol]

anyone that has a problem with Ginobili or his antics

is just secretly jealous that they dont have HIM on their team.

That simple.


If Ginobili played on the Suns Catharis would be exponging the wonderfull things about Ginobili.

In one ear out the other....
Tpark´s right.

[FromWayDowntown]

Actually, on many of those fouls the call is because two hands are on him--which is viewed as holding. You can't jump as a defender with one hand in the air trying to block the shot and the other holding on to the player. But Amare doesn't get the call any more than Duncan.

Had that happened, I'd see your point. But in neither instance that I'm talking about did that happen. Amare drew Duncan's 4th foul on a play where Duncan's feet were planted, Duncan's arms were straight up, and Amare initiated contact. Duncan doesn't get that call very often, and particularly not against superstar caliber defenders, certainly not in the WCF, and decidedly not if it's going to be the 4th foul on the defender. The same was true of the call that Amare drew on Horry in the early stages of Tuesday's game. Horry was planted and had his arms straight up in the air. Amare initiated contact and got the call.

And we haven't even discussed Q's flop at the end of the first half to draw Duncan's 3rd. Q grabbed Duncan's arm and when Timmy tried to extricate himself, Q flung himself like a rag doll. Want to talk about unlikely -- Tim Duncan is a strong man, but he's not strong enough to throw Quentin Richardson away like that.

Flops go both way.

[Catharsis]

anyone that has a problem with Ginobili or his antics

is just secretly jealous that they dont have HIM on their team.

That simple.


If Ginobili played on the Suns Catharis would be exponging the wonderfull things about Ginobili.

In one ear out the other....
Jesus! At least read ALL of my posts before you go off. I'll steer you to it. Second post in this thread:



But I wouldn't complain if he was on my team. :)

[smeagol]

That and he's also a foreign player.
Now, there´s a real reason to hate Manu! :depressed

[Catharsis]

Give it a couple of years of success with the Suns and suddenly everyone will notice and complain that Nash carries the ball on virtually every dribble and Amare initiates contact diving toward the basket on slams and still getting the foul call. Just give it time and success Catharsis.
I don't see it, but I also know that you can go 90 degrees with the ball and still be legal.

[spurschick]

That and he's also a foreign player.

Now, there´s a real reason to hate Manu! :depressed

I don't get all this differentiation between American and International players. They're all good basketball players and they've earned a spot in the NBA. Who cares where they come from?

[picnroll]

I don't see it, but I also know that you can go 90 degrees with the ball and still be legal.
Doug Collins has already called Nash out a couple of times for his hesitation, change of direction dribble/carries. They all do it but Nash is way up there with the best of them.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

He takes away the expected outcome of a play, any play...and that is frustrating.

Bingo.

The problem most people have is they're used to guys just coming down and either jacking up threes or going in for dunks.

With Manu, you've got a guy who does all that, plus has a mid-range game, is great at creating for teammates, always hustles all out, and oh yeah - he plays defense.

And a lot of it has to do with the fact that most of the haters are fans of former or current playoff opponents, and given Manu's clutchness most have already seen their team drop a big regular season game or get dropped in a playoff series because Manu steps up and owns their prodigal son of a shooting guard who thinks defense is a four letter word.

[gregpschneid]

I think Manu is someone you either love or hate. That's the way all great players are, I never liked Jordan!!

[myhc]

Good points everyone. It's good to be hated! :elephant

[angel_luv]

I think Manu is someone you either love or hate. That's the way all great players are, I never liked Jordan!!

I think Manu is like Mary Poppins - practically perfect in every way.

All NBA players want to be something else, usually rappers. So I see no problem with Gino acting a bit, if he wants too. ; )

[rr2418]

Another thing that is associated with flopping, but is done by the offensive player, is when the player drives to the basket with no intentions of trying to score, but rather to draw the foul. Antonio Daniels and Ray Allen are good at going hard to the hole and fall(flop) on their own. There was one play where Allen was to far underneath the basket. His shot hit under the backboard. No one made contact with him, but yet he threw himself to the floor to draw the foul. The refs will see that, b/c it happens to fast, that they just see the end result. Sometimes I think they anticipate that a foul will be commited and call it, instead of really seeing the play.