Venti Quattro
12-25-2010, 12:25 AM
The only thing Ric Bucher and Chris Broussard like to do more than report on the NBA is argue about the NBA. So we decided to combine those two skills for Insider's weekly One-on-One series, in which they'll debate the hottest topics in The Association.
Question: Better "Big Three," the Los Angeles Lakers or Miami Heat?
BROUSSARD: Ever since Miami's Big Three came together, they've been getting compared to other Big Threes. So how do they stack up against Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom? While L.A. obviously has a great trio, I think LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are superior.
BUCHER: Obviously there are different ways to measure a Big Three: a comparison of each player's pure gifts; how the three players fit together on the court; their time-tested accomplishments. But as physically imposing as Wade and LeBron can be, particularly in transition, and as much incredible hype as the Wade-LBJ-Bosh marriage has received, I don't see one of those categories in which I'd take the Heat trio over the Lakers' three of Kobe, Gasol and Odom. I'm truly interested in hearing why you would.
CB: At this point, there's no doubt the Lakers' chemistry tops that of Miami. But as time goes on and the Heat's trio continues to jell, it will become more potent than L.A.'s "Big Three."
I put L.A.'s "Big Three" in quotes because I'm not sure Odom qualifies as the third guy. Many would argue that Andrew Bynum is the third guy. I would certainly argue that he's been a bigger factor in their past two titles than Odom (not to diminish LO's importance). So you may be arguing for a "Big Two and a Half."
RB: Claiming that Odom doesn't deserve to be considered part of the Big Three over Bynum is a huge disservice to his contributions over the past two seasons and especially this one, in which he's played at an All-Star level. Mr. Inconsistency has 13 double-doubles already and is shooting nearly 60 percent from the floor and 37.5 percent from the arc, both career highs. He's contributed at least six and as many as 17 boards every night.
CB: Face it, for as much heat as LeBron, Bosh and Wade have gotten this season, they've been more effective than Kobe, Pau and Odom. Their records are virtually identical, and the Lakers' schedule has been a cakewalk. Los Angeles has beaten only two teams with winning records and is 2-3 against winning clubs. One of those wins was against a Chicago Bulls team without Carlos Boozer. Later in the season, when Boozer played, Chicago beat L.A. The other "quality win" was against a Portland Trail Blazers team that's barely over .500.
If the Lakers were under the same scrutiny as Miami, the sky would be falling in La-la Land. And fact is, if Bynum weren't coming to the rescue, folks would really be panicking.
Meanwhile, the Heat are 5-7 against teams with winning records, which is a slightly better winning percentage than the Lakers' (.416 versus .400). Plus, the Heat have beaten better teams -- Utah, Atlanta, Orlando, New Orleans, New York -- than L.A. has. The Heat have played more than twice as many winning teams (12 to five) than the Lakers, yet they have a better point differential, outscoring teams by an average of 9.4 points per game to 7.6 for the Lakers.
When you consider that L.A.'s Big Three has a better supporting cast (Bynum, Ron Artest, Derek Fisher), a better coach and has been together for years (versus two months for Miami), I'd say the Heat's group has been better.
RB: I have no doubt the Heat's chemistry will improve over time, but there's an inherent flaw in their makeup that will prevent them from ever achieving what the Lakers' Big Three has achieved: They can't impact the game without the ball. Forget the offensive side of the ball for a minute: Kobe, Pau and LO are all versatile and premier defenders at their positions. I can't say that about Bosh, Wade still gambles too much and LeBron is very good when he chooses to be -- he just doesn't always make that choice.
No one's making much of how the Lakers are playing because they've made three consecutive runs to the Finals and are determined to make a fourth. They know the level they have to play at and they know when they have to play at that level; November/December is not the time. And I'm sorry, but I don't think the two-time defending champions look at any part of their schedule as being something they can't squeeze an eight-game winning streak out of, no matter who they're playing or where.
That's what disappoints me about the Heat's Big Three: They should be the hungriest team in the league, bar none, and yet fire and energy and attention to detail are the elements they consistently lack. The teams they've beaten are teams they can physically overwhelm with their speed. I don't know that they've outexecuted a team yet. When Boston's Big Three came together for the first time, they pounced on opponents from day one. I didn't hear any of them suggesting Doc Rivers was playing them too many minutes or asking them to go too hard in practice.
The biggest part of the Lakers' arsenal that the Heat Big Three doesn't have, though, is the ability to execute under pressure as a unit. When it comes to that, the Heat are not even the league's second-best Big Three. Because for all of Kobe's, Pau's and LO's amazing athleticism and physical gifts, it is their ability to play off each other by cutting, passing and moving without the ball that sets them apart. And that is how playoff games are decided and "Big Three" monikers are truly earned.
CB: Members of the Lakers' trio don't really overlap, like LeBron and D-Wade do to a degree. But much of what you mentioned as an advantage for the Lakers -- the cutting, passing and moving without the ball -- is due to Phil Jackson and the triangle, not the Big Three themselves. Give Miami's Big Three Phil Jackson and they'd be better in those areas as well.
RB: No doubt the triangle requires players to move and cut and pass, but to suggest all a player -- any player -- needs is to have a coach who can teach him the system is simply not true. Certainly not at the NBA level. A player doesn't learn how to do those things because he's in the system, a player functions in the system because he can do those things. Or to put it another way: Take away isolations and pick-and-rolls from Wade, LeBron and Bosh and I'm sure they'd still be very good. But to suggest they'd be even better because a coach forced them into a pass-and-cut system is a leap of faith nothing in their careers justifies.
CB: I agree that the Miami Big Three is still a work in progress on the offensive end. But they've been terrific defensively. Miami has the top-ranked defense in the league -- No. 1 in opponents' field goal percentage (.425), points allowed (91.5) and opponents' 3-point percentage (.307), all by a wide margin -- and LeBron and Wade are the main reasons for that. Fact is their defense generates plenty of their offense. It's practically unheard of for a team with no significant presence in the middle to lead the league defensively, but because of LeBron's and Wade's length and athleticism on the perimeter, they've been able to do it.
Defensively, I'd take the Heat's Big Three over L.A.'s any day. Kobe has slowed down because of age to the point that he's no longer a lockdown guy. And Pau and Odom have been known for playing soft. Even against a much lighter schedule, the Lakers are allowing teams to shoot much better (.436) than the Heat are. And that still-solid percentage is largely due to Artest, not so much the Big Three.
RB: Slow your roll on that great defense. Just as the Lakers have played a load of lightweight opponents, the Heat's schedule has been littered with the worst offensive teams in the league. The Heat have played nine of the 10 worst shooting teams in the league, four of them twice. They've been good on the defensive end, but not great. As for comparing the Lakers' and Heat's respective Big Threes right now, I suppose if you closed one eye and somehow narrowed the focus to the first 25 games of this season, you could come up with statistics that somehow suggested the Heat are superior. But it requires turning a blind eye to far too many other factors.
As for Pau and Odom being soft, that's all relative. Compare them to Boston's front line and sure, they're more finesse than fire. But they've proved to be tougher than everybody else, including a very physical Denver Nuggets front line two years ago. The same can't be said for your Big Three. Big men around the league routinely pound Bosh, and LeBron, for all his willingness to draw contact with a full head of steam, shies away from the post and fighting for rebounds.
CB: The Lakers have had years to hone their chemistry under the greatest coach ever (particularly in the chemistry department), and Miami has been playing together for less than two months. Admittedly, LeBron and Wade aren't the greatest fit together, but they are two of the best and most spectacular wings of this generation. They've shown over the past three weeks that they're learning quickly: LeBron is posting a little more, both are moving better without the ball and neither is pounding his dribble repeatedly for 14 seconds anymore. And Bosh has found his place in the system as well. Their numbers over the past month have been monstrous, with all three shooting over 50 percent, Bosh averaging 18 and 9, LeBron 24, 6 and 6, and Wade 27 and 7 boards. And they're clearly still a ways away from fulfilling their potential.
Heck, give Miami's Big Three Bynum, Fisher, Steve Blake, Artest, Shannon Brown and Phil Jackson and they'd defeat L.A.'s Big Three plus Carlos Arroyo, Mario Chalmers, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Erick Dampier, James Jones and Erik Spoelstra.
RB: Years to jell? The Lakers added Gasol halfway through the season and went to the Finals the same year. That was a Lakers team that started Vladimir Radmanovic at power forward and had Sasha Vujacic as the sixth man. Whatever Pau's and LO's failings were in the Finals against Boston, they combined with Kobe to get them there with one championship-caliber role player (Fisher). By that measure, if Miami's Big Three is as superior as you say, the Heat have no excuses for not getting to the Finals this year.
Of course, the Heat Big Three's numbers are monstrous right now: It's the regular season and the entire game plan is geared toward them, to the point of letting them take turns and keeping one of them off the floor so they can get their "numbers" without stepping on each other. And here are a few other "spectacular" wings from the last generation: Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony. Common integer: phenomenal individual talents who were given a pass on their failings, the blame landing on the players and coaches around them. Only as we found out later, there was something missing (though the jury's still out on Melo) in them -- the ability to be fully effective in a system not tailored for them. Now you're telling me Wade, LeBron and Bosh would all step right into the triangle -- a system unlike anything they've ever played in -- and not only make it work for them, but also for a shifting cast around them, to win multiple championships. I'll give you this: That presumption is on the same level as talking about winning seven titles. Without having won one.
Question: Better "Big Three," the Los Angeles Lakers or Miami Heat?
BROUSSARD: Ever since Miami's Big Three came together, they've been getting compared to other Big Threes. So how do they stack up against Kobe Bryant, Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom? While L.A. obviously has a great trio, I think LeBron James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh are superior.
BUCHER: Obviously there are different ways to measure a Big Three: a comparison of each player's pure gifts; how the three players fit together on the court; their time-tested accomplishments. But as physically imposing as Wade and LeBron can be, particularly in transition, and as much incredible hype as the Wade-LBJ-Bosh marriage has received, I don't see one of those categories in which I'd take the Heat trio over the Lakers' three of Kobe, Gasol and Odom. I'm truly interested in hearing why you would.
CB: At this point, there's no doubt the Lakers' chemistry tops that of Miami. But as time goes on and the Heat's trio continues to jell, it will become more potent than L.A.'s "Big Three."
I put L.A.'s "Big Three" in quotes because I'm not sure Odom qualifies as the third guy. Many would argue that Andrew Bynum is the third guy. I would certainly argue that he's been a bigger factor in their past two titles than Odom (not to diminish LO's importance). So you may be arguing for a "Big Two and a Half."
RB: Claiming that Odom doesn't deserve to be considered part of the Big Three over Bynum is a huge disservice to his contributions over the past two seasons and especially this one, in which he's played at an All-Star level. Mr. Inconsistency has 13 double-doubles already and is shooting nearly 60 percent from the floor and 37.5 percent from the arc, both career highs. He's contributed at least six and as many as 17 boards every night.
CB: Face it, for as much heat as LeBron, Bosh and Wade have gotten this season, they've been more effective than Kobe, Pau and Odom. Their records are virtually identical, and the Lakers' schedule has been a cakewalk. Los Angeles has beaten only two teams with winning records and is 2-3 against winning clubs. One of those wins was against a Chicago Bulls team without Carlos Boozer. Later in the season, when Boozer played, Chicago beat L.A. The other "quality win" was against a Portland Trail Blazers team that's barely over .500.
If the Lakers were under the same scrutiny as Miami, the sky would be falling in La-la Land. And fact is, if Bynum weren't coming to the rescue, folks would really be panicking.
Meanwhile, the Heat are 5-7 against teams with winning records, which is a slightly better winning percentage than the Lakers' (.416 versus .400). Plus, the Heat have beaten better teams -- Utah, Atlanta, Orlando, New Orleans, New York -- than L.A. has. The Heat have played more than twice as many winning teams (12 to five) than the Lakers, yet they have a better point differential, outscoring teams by an average of 9.4 points per game to 7.6 for the Lakers.
When you consider that L.A.'s Big Three has a better supporting cast (Bynum, Ron Artest, Derek Fisher), a better coach and has been together for years (versus two months for Miami), I'd say the Heat's group has been better.
RB: I have no doubt the Heat's chemistry will improve over time, but there's an inherent flaw in their makeup that will prevent them from ever achieving what the Lakers' Big Three has achieved: They can't impact the game without the ball. Forget the offensive side of the ball for a minute: Kobe, Pau and LO are all versatile and premier defenders at their positions. I can't say that about Bosh, Wade still gambles too much and LeBron is very good when he chooses to be -- he just doesn't always make that choice.
No one's making much of how the Lakers are playing because they've made three consecutive runs to the Finals and are determined to make a fourth. They know the level they have to play at and they know when they have to play at that level; November/December is not the time. And I'm sorry, but I don't think the two-time defending champions look at any part of their schedule as being something they can't squeeze an eight-game winning streak out of, no matter who they're playing or where.
That's what disappoints me about the Heat's Big Three: They should be the hungriest team in the league, bar none, and yet fire and energy and attention to detail are the elements they consistently lack. The teams they've beaten are teams they can physically overwhelm with their speed. I don't know that they've outexecuted a team yet. When Boston's Big Three came together for the first time, they pounced on opponents from day one. I didn't hear any of them suggesting Doc Rivers was playing them too many minutes or asking them to go too hard in practice.
The biggest part of the Lakers' arsenal that the Heat Big Three doesn't have, though, is the ability to execute under pressure as a unit. When it comes to that, the Heat are not even the league's second-best Big Three. Because for all of Kobe's, Pau's and LO's amazing athleticism and physical gifts, it is their ability to play off each other by cutting, passing and moving without the ball that sets them apart. And that is how playoff games are decided and "Big Three" monikers are truly earned.
CB: Members of the Lakers' trio don't really overlap, like LeBron and D-Wade do to a degree. But much of what you mentioned as an advantage for the Lakers -- the cutting, passing and moving without the ball -- is due to Phil Jackson and the triangle, not the Big Three themselves. Give Miami's Big Three Phil Jackson and they'd be better in those areas as well.
RB: No doubt the triangle requires players to move and cut and pass, but to suggest all a player -- any player -- needs is to have a coach who can teach him the system is simply not true. Certainly not at the NBA level. A player doesn't learn how to do those things because he's in the system, a player functions in the system because he can do those things. Or to put it another way: Take away isolations and pick-and-rolls from Wade, LeBron and Bosh and I'm sure they'd still be very good. But to suggest they'd be even better because a coach forced them into a pass-and-cut system is a leap of faith nothing in their careers justifies.
CB: I agree that the Miami Big Three is still a work in progress on the offensive end. But they've been terrific defensively. Miami has the top-ranked defense in the league -- No. 1 in opponents' field goal percentage (.425), points allowed (91.5) and opponents' 3-point percentage (.307), all by a wide margin -- and LeBron and Wade are the main reasons for that. Fact is their defense generates plenty of their offense. It's practically unheard of for a team with no significant presence in the middle to lead the league defensively, but because of LeBron's and Wade's length and athleticism on the perimeter, they've been able to do it.
Defensively, I'd take the Heat's Big Three over L.A.'s any day. Kobe has slowed down because of age to the point that he's no longer a lockdown guy. And Pau and Odom have been known for playing soft. Even against a much lighter schedule, the Lakers are allowing teams to shoot much better (.436) than the Heat are. And that still-solid percentage is largely due to Artest, not so much the Big Three.
RB: Slow your roll on that great defense. Just as the Lakers have played a load of lightweight opponents, the Heat's schedule has been littered with the worst offensive teams in the league. The Heat have played nine of the 10 worst shooting teams in the league, four of them twice. They've been good on the defensive end, but not great. As for comparing the Lakers' and Heat's respective Big Threes right now, I suppose if you closed one eye and somehow narrowed the focus to the first 25 games of this season, you could come up with statistics that somehow suggested the Heat are superior. But it requires turning a blind eye to far too many other factors.
As for Pau and Odom being soft, that's all relative. Compare them to Boston's front line and sure, they're more finesse than fire. But they've proved to be tougher than everybody else, including a very physical Denver Nuggets front line two years ago. The same can't be said for your Big Three. Big men around the league routinely pound Bosh, and LeBron, for all his willingness to draw contact with a full head of steam, shies away from the post and fighting for rebounds.
CB: The Lakers have had years to hone their chemistry under the greatest coach ever (particularly in the chemistry department), and Miami has been playing together for less than two months. Admittedly, LeBron and Wade aren't the greatest fit together, but they are two of the best and most spectacular wings of this generation. They've shown over the past three weeks that they're learning quickly: LeBron is posting a little more, both are moving better without the ball and neither is pounding his dribble repeatedly for 14 seconds anymore. And Bosh has found his place in the system as well. Their numbers over the past month have been monstrous, with all three shooting over 50 percent, Bosh averaging 18 and 9, LeBron 24, 6 and 6, and Wade 27 and 7 boards. And they're clearly still a ways away from fulfilling their potential.
Heck, give Miami's Big Three Bynum, Fisher, Steve Blake, Artest, Shannon Brown and Phil Jackson and they'd defeat L.A.'s Big Three plus Carlos Arroyo, Mario Chalmers, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Erick Dampier, James Jones and Erik Spoelstra.
RB: Years to jell? The Lakers added Gasol halfway through the season and went to the Finals the same year. That was a Lakers team that started Vladimir Radmanovic at power forward and had Sasha Vujacic as the sixth man. Whatever Pau's and LO's failings were in the Finals against Boston, they combined with Kobe to get them there with one championship-caliber role player (Fisher). By that measure, if Miami's Big Three is as superior as you say, the Heat have no excuses for not getting to the Finals this year.
Of course, the Heat Big Three's numbers are monstrous right now: It's the regular season and the entire game plan is geared toward them, to the point of letting them take turns and keeping one of them off the floor so they can get their "numbers" without stepping on each other. And here are a few other "spectacular" wings from the last generation: Allen Iverson, Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Carmelo Anthony. Common integer: phenomenal individual talents who were given a pass on their failings, the blame landing on the players and coaches around them. Only as we found out later, there was something missing (though the jury's still out on Melo) in them -- the ability to be fully effective in a system not tailored for them. Now you're telling me Wade, LeBron and Bosh would all step right into the triangle -- a system unlike anything they've ever played in -- and not only make it work for them, but also for a shifting cast around them, to win multiple championships. I'll give you this: That presumption is on the same level as talking about winning seven titles. Without having won one.