Public Enemy #1: Public Education

[Nbadan]

Prediction #1 for 2011: Expect the wing-nuts attack on public education to intensify...

If liberals like Reich are spreading lies about education, what's a pro voucher wing-nut to do?

Robert Reich joins the attack on American public education while documenting the attack on American public education
George N. Schmidt - December 25, 2010


Just before Christmas, on December 23, University of California (Berkeley) economics professor and pundit Robert Reich published an analysis totaling up some of the costs of the recent attacks on public education across the USA. This holiday, it's worth reading (or re-reading) as we take a closer look at what 2011 will bring to American democracy, America's public schools, and our unions. Leaving aside Reich's boneheaded notion about vouchers (below), a closer look at the national attacks on both k-12 and higher education like the one Reich begins here (Illinois is conspicuously absent from many of his listings below) is more necessary now than ever. And maybe someone reading this can pull Reich over and fill him in on why vouchers are one of the worst ideas every touted by "economists."

Berkeley professor and former Clinton administration Labor Secretary Robert Reich (above) favors vouchers but admits that public schools need support. But one of the most significant things that can be culled already from these data is the simple facts that the USA is simply reverting to the status quo that existed throughout most of history, when k-12 schooling was manual training (remember "grammar school"?) for the working class, and college excluded working class children by means of the "free market." At the time Grapes of Wrath was published (and documented some of the horrors facing the working class in California, where Reich works today), to urge working class children (white, black, other) to aspire to college was cruel. All the child had to do was harvest a million tons of strawberries while working 36 hours a day in one of those labor camps or canneries in California depicted in John Steinback's novels.

So we're simply getting back to that as a country. But since a couple of generations of children have been raised believing that they had the right to a decent k-12 education and higher learning if they worked hard, the propaganda machine has to obliterate economic class and most of U.S. history as a piece of the current debate. With liberals like Robert Reich preaching vouchers, imagine what the "conservatives" are coming up with?

Basically, until the American working class helped out allies around the world win World War II, higher learning in the USA was "pay to play." And most of those of us who were "qualified" for higher learning — even as late at the early 1960s, when I finished high school — couldn't pay and therefore weren't eligible to play. Most of my high school friends didn't get college scholarships, so they were "channeled" into the military via the Draft ("Selective Service"), some to die in the imperialist war in Vietnam (and elsewhere in Southeast Asia) and others to be seriously messed up by the empire's misuse of their talents.

One of the grotesque lies being spread lately by Bill Gates (and others) is that the majority of working class kids in the USA are not "college ready" and therefore not doing college. One of the most ridiculous "data sets", which I heard recently from Advance Illinois, Stand for Children, and CPS officials at the Aurora hearings on Illinois "school reform," is that only a handful of Chicago high school children ever make it through a four-year college. The data were lies when they were first repeated from my Alma Mater (the University of Chicago) in 2002 and repeated over and over by that corporate reformer, Andy Stern, in 2006.

And they don't become any more true when spouted by Alicia Winckler of CPS in 2010.

Working class kids don't finish college in four years because, for the first time in about fifty years, the working class, no matter how motivated or talented, has been priced out of higher education. Vouchers and other crazy economists' nostrums won't solve that, because the problem is rooted in the most vicious returns to class warfare (against the working class and poor) in the USA.

How many children were forced to drop out of the University of California at Berkeley, where Reich teaches. the past three years because tuition went through the roof and the family faced financial trouble, or ruin? Reich asks some of the right questions in the discussion below, but misses a lot.

Link (http://www.substancenews.net/articles.php?page=1864&section=Article)

[boutons_deux]

By blocking the extension of Build America bonds, the Repugs are intent on forcing municipal and state govts into bankruptcy, wiping out pension funds (already one county has stopped pension checks, a clear violation of the law), which of course includes unionized teacher and govt employee pension plans.

The VRWC and Repugs will not stop, and cannot be stopped, until America is wrecked, and govt so enfeebled so that nothing will obstruct the corps and capitalist as they mop up whatever power and wealth they don't already own.

[Drachen]

I have a question. I understand the constitutional aspect of vouchers (i.e. the problem it creates regarding separation of church and state), but I want to know what is wrong with them otherwise?

This is an honest question.

[Drachen]

I am guessing the argument is that there will be less money per public school, but wouldn't that be equalized by the fact that fewer students are attending?

[Trainwreck2100]

i'm for sending the smart kids to private schools away from the dumbass kids

[boutons_deux]

TEXAS SCHOOL SPENDING TOPS $11K PER PUPIL

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

==========

The right-wing voucher push was clearly racist, as charter schools in the racist south rose as white schools were forced to integrate, and also clearly Christian supremacist as "Christian" charter schools could teach their Bible indoctrination on private premises. Clearly, being able to spout in rote and quote Bible chapter and verse is an excellent preparation for college and employment.

Although there is some Robin-Hooding of K-12 funding in TX, we can assume it fails more often than not, so that public schools in wealthy districts spend a lot more than $11K/student.

[Trainwreck2100]

robin hooding ended like 3 years ago

[Drachen]

TEXAS SCHOOL SPENDING TOPS $11K PER PUPIL

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=19360

==========

The right-wing voucher push was clearly racist, as charter schools in the racist south rose as white schools were forced to integrate, and also clearly Christian supremacist as "Christian" charter schools could teach their Bible indoctrination on private premises. Clearly, being to spout and quote Bible chapter and verse is an excellent preparation for college and employment.

Although there is some Robin-Hooding of K-12 funding in TX, we can assume it fails more often than not, so that public schools in wealthy districts spend a lot more than $11K/student.


Despite your hyperbole, I don't see the problem with this idea. Why can't they get all of that education at such a school if the parents so choose? You are veering into the Church V. State thing, which is understandable, but is there ANOTHER reason to be against vouchers. I honestly could care less about the fact that the school I want to send my daughter to is a catholic school. I am far more interested in the quality of education. I went to a catholic school up until I was in 4th grade and once I hit public school, everything was easy because I was so far ahead. I want that for my daughter. However, just because the voucher system will benefit me (greatly as it is still unclear if I will be able to afford tuition), doesn't make it right, which is why I am asking for reasons other than church and state (I keep ignoring this part because I am sure that there is a way to structure the system which avoids this conflict).

[boutons_deux]

Established Catholic K-12 schools do have a record of better quality of general education, while recent charter schools mostly have non-academic priority (re-segregation, Biblical indoctrination), with academics being secondary.

[CosmicCowboy]

I sent my kids to private school through the 8th grade and they were MUCH better prepared for high school that their public mis-educated peers.

[Drachen]

Established Catholic K-12 schools do have a record of better quality of general education, while recent charter schools mostly have non-academic priority (re-segregation, Biblical indoctrination), with academics being secondary.

Oh, ok. I was unaware of that. So it just turns out I was lucky to be Catholic? lol

One thing I will say was that the school I went to seems to be strange when you talk to people about their preconceived notions of catholic school. I had told one of my teachers (for religion class) that I wasn't sure I agreed with what was being taught (cant remember the lesson that day), and my teacher told me that this was fine, that it was important to question our faith, because otherwise, how do we know it is right. She also said that when our faith is proven to be correct that it makes it that much stronger. While this is a specific example, it wasn't necessarily an isolated incident. I benefited greatly from attending and just want my daughter to have the same opportunity.

Most people think its some weird cult like experience, I found it to be quite enlightening.

[Duff McCartney]

I sent my kids to private school through the 8th grade and they were MUCH better prepared for high school that their public mis-educated peers.

I think it's a mistake to say that public school children are mis-educated. The flaws are from our entire public school system that favors standardized testing over creativity, critical thinking, and reason. I find it problematic that now everyone is so entirely focused on math and science in schools. I think I will be hard pressed to find a job since I am in neither of these fields.

I think focusing on math and science at the expense of other subjects like arts, music, and social studies will only hurt our education system rather than help it.

As per the voucher thing, I'm pretty sure that the court system found it constitutional to use them for parochial schools because the intent of the statute is neutral under the Establishment Clause.

[MannyIsGod]

Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).

[DarrinS]

Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).


So true.

[Trainwreck2100]

Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).

just took a certification test where the math was supposed to be insanely hard I studied a 60 page book, for 4 hours and passed a test sad suckers pay 10000 for a class to learn to pass

[scott]

The students I see every semester are not prepared for college. I never should have to spend time explaining to students how to calculate a percentage change between two numbers, or to calculate the area of a triangle. Yet, every semester I do.

I find that a significant portion of incoming students (I mostly teach 200 level courses, but have a large number of freshman enrolled) are not only not prepared from an academic perspective, but are not prepared from a study habits or maturity perspective. I don't have a solution to propose, I am merely pointing out the problem.

I went to a Catholic high school and even as an atheist I would send my children to Catholic school.

[Duff McCartney]

I find that a significant portion of incoming students (I mostly teach 200 level courses, but have a large number of freshman enrolled) are not only not prepared from an academic perspective, but are not prepared from a study habits or maturity perspective.

I agree with you there. Maybe it's just our society that we have become accustomed to going directly to college after high school. For some students that does them good because they were focused in high school. But alot of students, especially ones who have it paid for them, just see college as an opportunity to fuck off away from home. They don't put in the time and effort studying.

I'll be the first to admit that I hate mathematics with a passion. But I know when I left high school even though my grades were good I was not ready for college. Now I know that even though I hate math, I still have to put in the effort to study and do the homework in order to succeed and I don't think alot of college students fresh from high school do that.

[baseline bum]

I spent roughly the first half of my K-12 education in Catholic school and the second in public, and I have to say public was an enormous step down in difficulty until I could start taking AP classes (which were great). For instance, from 2nd grade on in Catholic school we'd have to write a book report every other week at least, while in public jr. high we might do it twice a semester max. The reading and writing loads were ridiculously weak in public school until I got to AP Language and AP Literature. I thought the gap was way less in math and science though.

[ploto]

A big difference with a Catholic school is that the students more often come from families that value education. That is why they are there in the first place. Part of the battle that teachers face in public school is not there. They also manage to educate students better for less money per pupil, but they also do not have to face the financial challenges of special needs students and programs.

You also have districts like NEISD and NISD spending ridiculous amounts of money to build buildings like Johnson High School while old Catholic schools in old buildings are educating the kids better overall. I am not sure how a gigantic stone wall helps the kids become better prepared for college.

[ploto]

I have a question. I understand the constitutional aspect of vouchers (i.e. the problem it creates regarding separation of church and state), but I want to know what is wrong with them otherwise?


I assume the issue is not so much the kids that would be "lost" after the voucher program went into effect, as it would be all the kids ALREADY not in public school who would take their money out. I know the area in which I live does not have nearly the number of public schools that would be expected for the population of kids in the area because so many parents send their kids to private school- religious or otherwise. If tomorrow all those schools closed, the district would have no clue what to do with them all. Every kid on my street- given that this only equals 5- goes to Catholic school despite the public schools being very good. If we all took our money with us tomorrow, what would the district do?

[CosmicCowboy]

I assume the issue is not so much the kids that would be "lost" after the voucher program went into effect, as it would be all the kids ALREADY not in public school who would take their money out. I know the area in which I live does not have nearly the number of public schools that would be expected for the population of kids in the area because so many parents send their kids to private school- religious or otherwise. If tomorrow all those schools closed, the district would have no clue what to do with them all. Every kid on my street- given that this only equals 5- goes to Catholic school despite the public schools being very good. If we all took our money with us tomorrow, what would the district do?

Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?

[TheSullyMonster]

Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?

Well to be fair, there is probably another 10k+ in benefits cost for said teacher.

But yeah.


Not being able to get a job in your field has more to do with the absolute flood of liberal arts degrees. Public schools are not focusing on Math and Science very well if thats what they're doing (look at Math literacy in our country and its not exactly good).

I'm a bit surprised you didn't complain about English literacy as well. It's also woefully deficient.

[Drachen]

Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?

Interest expense on bonds?

I know that the Catholic school I attended was in a series of what I call "permanent portable" buildings. They looked like all wood trailers with a wooden deck between classrooms. The cafeteria was in the old church building (a new one was built in the 70s or so). Then when they decided that they needed to upgrade, they squirreled away the money, passed a second collection plate for a few years and built a new school building in 1987 or 88 (complete with its own cafeteria!) as well as a gym. The old church is now a thrift shop and has been since that year. Its no super church or anything, basically a small one in Converse (st. monicas). I just wish I could send my daughter there (it is on the other side of town from where I live now) because tuition is only about 2500 a year whereas the nearest catholic school to where I live is St. Matthews and it is about 5500 a year. Hope its worth it.

[Drachen]

I just realized I am turning the conversation away from the original topic. I won't bring it up again other than to discuss the problem with vouchers. Sorry about that.

[TeyshaBlue]

Hopefully be more efficient and quit pissing off money. The average 22 pupil third grade class gets over 1/4 million dollars for the year and the teacher gets about 40K of that. What happens to the other $210,000?

You've got to amortize the buildings, utilities, bond repayment and maintenance, among other costs, CC.

[CosmicCowboy]

You've got to amortize the buildings, utilities, bond repayment and maintenance, among other costs, CC.

Teysha, I own a business and understand the concept of overhead. However, do we REALLY need 100 MILLION Dollar High schools in order to teach kids? How is it that 80% of every teaching dollar gets spent on overhead that is not directly related to educating students?

[TeyshaBlue]

Teysha, I own a business and understand the concept of overhead. However, do we REALLY need 100 MILLION Dollar High schools in order to teach kids? How is it that 80% of every teaching dollar gets spent on overhead that is not directly related to educating students?

Oh, I completely agree. But, I understand the value of functional facilities. In my school district, we recently built a new Tech center. http://schools.birdvilleschools.net/cotal/site/default.asp
It was easily 20 million, but what they do there is simply unbelievable. This is the center that my son will attend to learn auto mechanics. The service bay there is larger than any dealership in DFW. And that's just a tiny piece of the program.

Yeah, there's alot you can do without, but sometimes, you've just got to spend the dough to reap the reward.

[Wild Cobra]

i'm for sending the smart kids to private schools away from the dumbass kids

Agreed. Government schools maintain that lowest common denominator attitude.

[Wild Cobra]

I think it's a mistake to say that public school children are mis-educated. The flaws are from our entire public school system that favors standardized testing over creativity, critical thinking, and reason. I find it problematic that now everyone is so entirely focused on math and science in schools. I think I will be hard pressed to find a job since I am in neither of these fields.

I think focusing on math and science at the expense of other subjects like arts, music, and social studies will only hurt our education system rather than help it.

As per the voucher thing, I'm pretty sure that the court system found it constitutional to use them for parochial schools because the intent of the statute is neutral under the Establishment Clause.
No...\

The problem is two-fold. Government, and union teachers who care more about themselves, than our national treasures.

[Wild Cobra]

You've got to amortize the buildings, utilities, bond repayment and maintenance, among other costs, CC.
Agreed, but it's still excessive.

[Nbadan]

I just realized I am turning the conversation away from the original topic. I won't bring it up again other than to discuss the problem with vouchers. Sorry about that.

Vouchers won't solve anything, it would just make school funding even more inequitable...and that's the real reason wingnuts want to destroy public education...let's say vouchers pass, every kid gets about $7k per year to pay for their own education in a private or public school...do you think catholic schools will be ready to face all the requirements of the American with Disability Act or other laws public schools must abide by? No....these kids along with those with mental, psychological, and educational needs will be rejected by private school because they are not required to accept these kids by law like public schools are..

[Nbadan]

This and having parents with a vested interest in their child's education are the real reasons why kids do better in some private schools.....typically, experienced teachers in public schools have better training and a better curriculum, but its very difficult to keep gppd teachers in poor school districts...especially in Math and Science...so these kids with the most needs typically get inexperienced teachers...

[Nbadan]

BOT...if everyone was given a voucher, the rich would price out everyone else because they could afford to pay another $4-$10 thousand per year on top of their voucher... so consequently, private schools would get the best teachers...and the poor? screwed.

[TeyshaBlue]

No....these kids along with those with mental, psychological, and educational needs will be rejected by private school because they are not required to accept these kids by law like public schools are..

Actually, that's not entirely true. While it is true that there is no compulsory law to accept special needs kids, there is a mechanism within IDEA itself to address this issue. In short, the children need to be evaluated by local agencies. Then a meeting is set up with the school, parents and evaluating agencie(s). At that point, much like what occurs in a public school, an IEP is drawn up and funding is directed to the school for accommodation.
Yes, the school technically has the right of refusal, but I've never heard of a school doing so. Also, there are many, many private schools specifically for special needs kids.

[Duff McCartney]

No...\

The problem is two-fold. Government, and union teachers who care more about themselves, than our national treasures.

They care about oil as much as the next person does.

[ploto]

Yes, the school technically has the right of refusal, but I've never heard of a school doing so. Also, there are many, many private schools specifically for special needs kids.

I know of private schools informing parents that they do not accept kids with certain needs. If you have a small school with only one class per grade and one teacher per class, then you really can not properly handle some kid's needs. Granted there are also private schools geared specifically toward certain special needs, such as the Winston School.

[MannyIsGod]

If I ever have any kids, I can't in good faith send them to public school. One of the reasons I don't plan on having kids without a large amount of money to spend on a private education.

[TeyshaBlue]

If I ever have any kids, I can't in good faith send them to public school. One of the reasons I don't plan on having kids without a large amount of money to spend on a private education.

While that is completely your prerogative, it's just not a black/white-either/or issue. There are some fabulous public schools out there. My children attend one such school system. I wouldn't, for a minute, consider pulling them out and going the private route.
Don't predispose yourself to go the private route without exploring what's available when the time comes.:toast

[MannyIsGod]

Fair enough, and while I think there are great magnet public high schools they still have to go through public elementary and public middle schools before getting there. I hear what you're saying though, and should I ever decide to unless minimannys upon the world I will keep it in mind.

[SnakeBoy]

Vouchers won't solve anything, it would just make school funding even more inequitable...and that's the real reason wingnuts want to destroy public education...let's say vouchers pass, every kid gets about $7k per year to pay for their own education in a private or public school...do you think catholic schools will be ready to face all the requirements of the American with Disability Act or other laws public schools must abide by? No....these kids along with those with mental, psychological, and educational needs will be rejected by private school because they are not required to accept these kids by law like public schools are..

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. The end result of your progressive concept of equitable education is that everyone gets an equally poor education. I don't see anything wrong with kids who want to succeed and are willing to do the work getting a better education than those who don't care about their future.

[TheSullyMonster]

I don't think there is anything wrong with this. The end result of your progressive concept of equitable education is that everyone gets an equally poor education. I don't see anything wrong with kids who want to succeed and are willing to do the work getting a better education than those who don't care about their future.

Because it brings the entire country down.

[Nbadan]

Actually, that's not entirely true. While it is true that there is no compulsory law to accept special needs kids, there is a mechanism within IDEA itself to address this issue. In short, the children need to be evaluated by local agencies. Then a meeting is set up with the school, parents and evaluating agencie(s). At that point, much like what occurs in a public school, an IEP is drawn up and funding is directed to the school for accommodation.
Yes, the school technically has the right of refusal, but I've never heard of a school doing so. Also, there are many, many private schools specifically for special needs kids.

My point was that most private schools don't have the resources to deal with special needs students, therefore, they will simply fail to enroll them, especially if the kid has behavior issues too... public schools are there to educate everyone...they will even go looking for kids in the district...

[boutons_deux]

"brings the entire country down."

The wealthy will always provide the best education for their kids, just like the super-wealthy are detached/shielded from The Rest of US by their wealth. Please don't worry about them.

The priority of the VRWC/Repugs not extending Buy America Bonds/state/local aid was to bust the school/state/municpal unions AND bankrupt their pension plans, as well as impoverish public schools.

The VRWC knows that a dumb, uneducated, vapidly entertained (sports, "reality" TV, celebrity-saturated, electronic doo-dads/games-obsessed, Fox-Propaganda-"informed", uncritically thinking, Jay-walking populace is the VRWC's best strategy for maintaining and increasing their oligarchic control of America.

We have many examples of such duped zombies in this forum.

[Geezerballer]

If vouchers were ever implemented, I’d start a school for boys only and staff it with black or latino retired/former military men. I’d promote the school to the children of un-wed mothers who wanted their sons to have a positive role model in their lives. Each day would start w/ physical training & school uniforms would be mandatory.

I am certain that this model could produce better educated young men from that community than the public schools do. “Separate but equal?” I don’t care. I’d rather try that than continue with the failure that (most) public schools have been.

Why should only the wealthy have a choice about where they send their kids?

[TheSullyMonster]

"brings the entire country down."

The wealthy will always provide the best education for their kids, just like the super-wealthy are detached/shielded from The Rest of US by their wealth. Please don't worry about them.

The priority of the VRWC/Repugs not extending Buy America Bonds/state/local aid was to bust the school/state/municpal unions AND bankrupt their pension plans, as well as impoverish public schools.


I was referring to the fact that an uneducated populace is not generally a productive, ambitious or innovative one. We also don't have the manufacturing base to herd people into, either. I was talking about the rest of the country, not the wealthy.

And geezer, why not white retired military? What, Patton not good enough for you?:rollin

[boutons_deux]

"uneducated populace is not generally a productive"

The corps and Wall St don't need the US populace to be productive, ambitious, innovative anymore. There is now, for US corps, plenty of consumers, growth, cheap design+labor, and manufacturing in East and South Asia to replace the depressed US consumers. So the wealthy VRWC busting the schools and state/local govts is pure vicious meanness.

The Big Money economy is booming, the The Real Economy is stagnant, declining. This was already true in the 2000s, and GDP and productivity rose along with corp mgmt compensation while household incomes stagnated and household debt reached record levels.

[Geezerballer]

And geezer, why not white retired military? What, Patton not good enough for you?:rollin

You can’t ignore the fact that many kids from the demographic I’m talking about see doing well in school as “acting white”. You’ve got to meet them where they are if you want to make a difference.

The public school mindset is “one size fits all” and that is clearly not working (nor should we be surprised).

[Nbadan]

If vouchers were ever implemented, I’d start a school for boys only and staff it with black or latino retired/former military men. I’d promote the school to the children of un-wed mothers who wanted their sons to have a positive role model in their lives. Each day would start w/ physical training & school uniforms would be mandatory.

We've got that already, it's called Prison...

[ploto]

Why should only the wealthy have a choice about where they send their kids?

There are many non-wealthy people who make huge sacrifices to send their kids to private school. Not everyone there is rich. Many have parents who work 2 jobs to pay the tuition. I sold my house so I could send my kid to Catholic school.

[Wild Cobra]

Why should only the wealthy have a choice about where they send their kids?
This is the land of opportunity. Strive to make more money and do the same. maybe if we could talk the federal government to give vouchers at half of what the government pays, more people could pay the little extra to put their kids in a private school.

[TheSullyMonster]

"uneducated populace is not generally a productive"

The corps and Wall St don't need the US populace to be productive, ambitious, innovative anymore. There is now, for US corps, plenty of consumers, growth, cheap design+labor, and manufacturing in East and South Asia to replace the depressed US consumers. So the wealthy VRWC busting the schools and state/local govts is pure vicious meanness.

The Big Money economy is booming, the The Real Economy is stagnant, declining. This was already true in the 2000s, and GDP and productivity rose along with corp mgmt compensation while household incomes stagnated and household debt reached record levels.


You can’t ignore the fact that many kids from the demographic I’m talking about see doing well in school as “acting white”. You’ve got to meet them where they are if you want to make a difference.

The public school mindset is “one size fits all” and that is clearly not working (nor should we be surprised).

It's like neither of you even read. "Hey look, somebody quoted my post. Time to parrot some more talking points.":lol

[ploto]

maybe if we could talk the federal government to give vouchers at half of what the government pays, more people could pay the little extra to put their kids in a private school.

I would gladly take half of that $11,000. My kid's school costs less than $5500 until he hit high school.

[Wild Cobra]

I would gladly take half of that $11,000. My kid's school costs less than $5500 until he hit high school.

It's sad when better schools cost so much less than the government spends, isn't it.

Does the government do anything as efficient as the private sector?

[desflood]

"Public" school is done for. I'm sorry. It needs to be eliminated and education needs to be privatized.

[Nbadan]

I would gladly take half of that $11,000. My kid's school costs less than $5500 until he hit high school.

You would have a point if schools spent $11k per student but they don't...the avg public school education is about $7k per year...once again....private schools do not have to follow the law like public schools do, nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing....

Wing-nuts always want to compare the best private schools to the worst public schools...if private schools are so good then lets take the worst kids in public school put them in a private school and see if they do any better...

[ploto]

You would have a point if schools spent $11k per student but they don't...the avg public school education is about $7k per year...


Then, I would glady take the $3500 because my kid's school cost that much until he started high school.


nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing...

My child takes the Stanford Aptitude Tests every year. They are much harder than the TAKS tests that the public schools take. Granted, he does not have to "pass them" but they are as good or better of an indicator than what the state administers. Thankfully, his teachers never teach to these tests. They simply give them in the spring and consider them more to be an overall evaluation on how the school is performing.

[Wild Cobra]

You would have a point if schools spent $11k per student but they don't...the avg public school education is about $7k per year...once again....private schools do not have to follow the law like public schools do, nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing....

Wing-nuts always want to compare the best private schools to the worst public schools...if private schools are so good then lets take the worst kids in public school put them in a private school and see if they do any better...
No Dan. Ask for the "all funds" budget. These numbers are higher.

[boutons_deux]

On a similar note, non-academic activities as a huge business

The Most Profitable College Football Teams

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/30/the-most-profitable-colle_n_802810.html#s217317&title=University%20of%20Texas

[boutons_deux]

Does the government do anything as efficient as the private sector?

yes.

military, VA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security.

The only way to get medical costs down is a hard-core, in-their-face public health insurance option competing directly against for-profit private insurers who are draining Americans' wealth by the $100Bs/year

[Drachen]

It's sad when better schools cost so much less than the government spends, isn't it.

Does the government do anything as efficient as the private sector?

To be fair, the winston school costs 15k a year, and services students that public schools also must service.

[Nbadan]

Then, I would glady take the $3500 because my kid's school cost that much until he started high school.

...and that right there is the main problem with vouchers.....Ploto knows the value of education and being an involved parent....most poor kids don't have that....so Ploto will take his $5-$7 K voucher, add the $3-$5K he was going to spend on his child's education anyway...and send his kid to the best school possible.....now if your a teacher you can work at a school where most kids pay 5-7K or where the kids and parents pay 10-15K per year....which school will attract the best teachers? Which school will attract the teachers with less experience and training?

Have we solved anything in education? NO.

[TheSullyMonster]

You would have a point if schools spent $11k per student but they don't...the avg public school education is about $7k per year...once again....private schools do not have to follow the law like public schools do, nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing....


Nor do they have any requirements or standards for their teachers...:depressed

[desflood]

again....private schools do not have to follow the law like public schools do, nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing...
And yet, private schools generally turn out more highly-educated students for less money. Could it be that these things you mention are actually detrimental to the performance of public schools?

[Nbadan]

And yet, private schools generally turn out more highly-educated students for less money. Could it be that these things you mention are actually detrimental to the performance of public schools?

Less money up front...most parents with kids in private schools pay at least $5K per year but if it's a Catholic School, the parishioners are going to pick up the rest of the tab, which generally covers operating expenses of the church and school...there are no parishioners to pick up the public school tab, although I would not be against more private advertising, especially in Cafeterias and at sporting events, to help defray costs for local tax payers...

....standardized testing is just plain loopy...most grades have so many TEKS to teach its difficult for kids to master any one concept, that's why most kids don't know their multiplication table like we did as kids, but know how to add fractions with different denominators or how to find the circumference or area of a circle....

[Blake]

While that is completely your prerogative, it's just not a black/white-either/or issue. There are some fabulous public schools out there. My children attend one such school system. I wouldn't, for a minute, consider pulling them out and going the private route.
Don't predispose yourself to go the private route without exploring what's available when the time comes.:toast

I think my kid's current public school is good. I thought my step-daughter's public school experience was good as well.

I went to private school myself and comparing notes with what they went through, feel like I missed out on some of the resources and curriculum that was offered in the public school.

The one thing that the private schools will always have a leg up on the public schools in is discipline.

[desflood]

This is an issue we're currently struggling with. We're going to sell our house and move closer to the in-laws. They're in a better school district, so public school would be a viable option for the first time in years; but we love where they are now (it's a homeschool run by a certified former teacher). Damn these moral dilemmas.

[Wild Cobra]

...and that right there is the main problem with vouchers.....Ploto knows the value of education and being an involved parent....most poor kids don't have that....so Ploto will take his $5-$7 K voucher, add the $3-$5K he was going to spend on his child's education anyway...and send his kid to the best school possible.....now if your a teacher you can work at a school where most kids pay 5-7K or where the kids and parents pay 10-15K per year....which school will attract the best teachers? Which school will attract the teachers with less experience and training?

Have we solved anything in education? NO.
Make the public schools perform. Get rid of teachers who don't teach, get back to the basics of education and remove the social agendas. Return control back to the communities. That would make a big difference.

[boutons_deux]

WC is perfectly out of touch, with bubba-level simplistic ideas to a very complex problem with no practical chance of being implemented. WC never say an Ivory Tower he didn't view the world from.

[boutons_deux]

America will never admit, in the face of facts to the contrary, that it's the Best Fucking Country On The Planet, but other societies have organized themselves better, and are getting verifiably better results in, eg, health care and education.

eg: Finland

==========

America's latest school report card jump-started yet another wave of panic that our students will never be able to compete on the world stage.The Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development’s release of its annual Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) study, an international comparison of educational performance, placed U.S. kids in the incredibly average group.

But aside from the fear that our children won’t one day earn enough to prop up our Social Security/Medicare entitlements, the report wasn’t quite a death knell for the public school system.

America’s kids didn’t flunk. Where countries like England, France and Sweden are mired in mediocrity with no signs of improvement, the U.S. posted modest gains.

What’s most interesting about the PISA report, and important for the public school reformers here to focus on, is Finland.

Finland As A Model

Once again, Finnish students topped the PISA report card, but what makes this information worth scrutinizing is that 25 years ago Finland’s school system sat in the same predicament that public schools in the U.S. find themselves now. The Finns scored below average in math and science and had alarming achievement gaps between urban and affluent schools versus poor and rural schools.

So what did the Finns do?

They began scrutinizing the education policies and practices of more successful countries, took what worked, ignored that which went against the grain and built an educational system where today there is virtually no academic difference among socio-economic groups. Children in Finland can attend school anywhere in the country and be assured of the same quality of education.

The Exact Opposite

Not surprising to me, as a former teacher, is that Finland reformed its schools and rose to the top by doing almost the exact opposite of what reformers like Secretary of State Arne Duncan and Bill Gates would have Americans believe is the only cure for our ailing schools.

Despite the differences in our countries' make-ups, (America is far more diverse and has a child poverty rate that is four times higher than Finland) they have much to teach us.

What Did Finland Do?

First, no child in Finland ever takes a standardized test. The only test a Finnish student takes is the one that determines if he/she will go on to university. In addition, standardized tests are not used to measure teaching ability or to compare schools. Parents, teachers and students assess progress and effectiveness of schools. Any comparison assessment relies on sample-based learning tests, which are low-stakes because the data is simply used in research to determine what works and what doesn’t. The Finns believe that education is a process, not a game to be won or lost.

Second, Finland put time and money into elevating the teaching profession. Parents and politicians regard teachers in the same manner they do doctors. In fact, the Finns trust schools more than any other institution except the police.

Teachers come into the profession with advanced degrees and they work with autonomy. Teachers are key players in determining curriculum and assessment, which might explain why the teaching profession attracts the best and brightest. After all, who wants to go into a profession where it is assumed you graduated in the bottom half of your class and couldn’t get into any other discipline at university?

Third, administrators from principals to school superintendents are all former teachers. No one is allowed to oversee the education of Finnish children in any role who hasn’t the educational training and experience. There are no exceptions. The idea that a business person or politician, who never taught, understands the learning process or should be in charge of reform would puzzle a Finn.

Fourth, Finland does not promote the idea of educating its young as a competition. Schools work in tandem and cooperation is the rule rather than the freakish exception. Interestingly, Shanghai – whose students bested Finland in math and science this year – also shuns the competitive model of school reform. In Shanghai, low performing schools are paired with and mentored by high performing ones with the emphasis on sharing techniques that work. Closing schools and firing teachers is simply not a choice.

http://www.care2.com/causes/education/blog/four-reasons-finland-s-schools-are-better-than-ours/

[boutons_deux]

Can Teachers Run Schools?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-vander-ark/can-teachers-run-schools_b_803312.html?view=print

[ploto]

Nor do they have any requirements or standards for their teachers...:depressed

Many of them do. All 7 of my kid's teachers this year have Master's Degrees. 5 have Master's in the subject they are teaching. 1 has a Master's in Curriculum. The other one has a Bachelor's in the field she is teaching and a Master's in a different, but somewhat related field.

[Nbadan]

Many of them do. All 7 of my kid's teachers this year have Master's Degrees. 5 have Master's in the subject they are teaching. 1 has a Master's in Curriculum. The other one has a Bachelor's in the field she is teaching and a Master's in a different, but somewhat related field.

On a private school salary that's commendable...many teachers really like to teach, but they don't like all the requirements and laws they have to meet, especially the mountain of endless paper-work....planning lessons and dealing with students/parents is time consuming enough...

....this would certainly be the exception and not the rule if schools went totally private though...

[Drachen]

...and that right there is the main problem with vouchers.....Ploto knows the value of education and being an involved parent....most poor kids don't have that....so Ploto will take his $5-$7 K voucher, add the $3-$5K he was going to spend on his child's education anyway...and send his kid to the best school possible.....now if your a teacher you can work at a school where most kids pay 5-7K or where the kids and parents pay 10-15K per year....which school will attract the best teachers? Which school will attract the teachers with less experience and training?

Have we solved anything in education? NO.

Absolutely we have solved something. It allows those right on the edge like me to send my kids to private school. I can probably do it without, but it will be difficult. I also know many who arent on the edge, but they are close and an extra 2-3k could allow them to send their kids to private school. It is opening the way for more to have a choice about which school to send their kids to.

Believe it or not, there are many poor kids whose parents DO care, but cannot provide for a better education.

Those poor (or rich, or middle class) kids whose parents do not care about their education are not going to benefit either way. There is nothing I, or you can do about that. A voucher program will allow more people to send their kids to private school, and your argument that there are people who will choose not to take advantage of it doesn't hold water.

[Wild Cobra]

WC is perfectly out of touch, with bubba-level simplistic ideas to a very complex problem with no practical chance of being implemented. WC never say an Ivory Tower he didn't view the world from.
LOL...

It's not a complex problem, it is simple. Government rules and regulations teaching to the lowest common denominator, and too many shameless teachers who only have a job because it's union. I live in the real world.

[scott]

For those truly interested in the topic, this is an excellent book.

http://www.amazon.com/School-Choice-Wars-Scarecrow-Education/dp/0810839563/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1294029685&sr=8-1

[desflood]

"By the way I am a teacher ,I had to study years of child development and psyc ,as well as subject material ,how everyone now thinks they can home school is a joke.Even Judge Judy asks what university did you graduate from ?when someone says they home school.How do they feel so qualified!"
This quote, taken from a post in scott's link, provides an excellent example of why parents should to be able to choose where their children attend school. I doubt that even the most ardent public school supporter would be comfortable having this individual "teaching" their child.

[CosmicCowboy]

You would have a point if schools spent $11k per student but they don't...the avg public school education is about $7k per year...once again....private schools do not have to follow the law like public schools do, nor do they have any type of checks like standardized testing....

Wing-nuts always want to compare the best private schools to the worst public schools...if private schools are so good then lets take the worst kids in public school put them in a private school and see if they do any better...

Dan the average in Texas is $11,000 per student.

Check it out.

[boutons_deux]

TX underspends per inmate (missing out 5000 guards) but it's still twice the expense per student. The TX MIC really need to up it game, get them 5000 guards hired, non-unionized, of course.

[Blake]

TX underspends per inmate (missing out 5000 guards) but it's still twice the expense per student. The TX MIC really need to up it game, get them 5000 guards hired, non-unionized, of course.

well, room and board naturally costs more.

That $3 lunch my kid has at school every day adds up fast.

[jack sommerset]

well, room and board naturally costs more.

That $3 lunch my kid has at school every day adds up fast.

I'm thinking of home schooling my kids. I'll have room for a few more kids. Shoot me over a pm and I will see if ur kid qualifies for my institution. Meals will run you a a buck a day if you choose to have ur kid eat in my kitchen. Hours are from 9-12.

[DarkReign]

My kids will go to private school and any method whereby I can extract my tax money from the public pool to supplement that decision is a priority.

Public schools have always been complete trash. Not because of the teachers or the environment, but because of parents. Most parents, in case you havent noticed, are negligent morons. When 70% of the kids in public school come from parents who are almost completely uninvolved in their education, you have the American system.

Those parents that do care save their money and send their kids to private schools (at least until middle school). It doesnt break my heart that most people cant afford it, tough breaks, life sucks, get a helmet. My child's development will not be stunted because of some altruistic, hands-across-America bullshit.

My kid will excel, even at the expense of yours. Sorry.

[DarkReign]

All these studies comparing the dollar value of an American education system versus some European system fail to account for the very obvious demographic and cultural differences between "us" and "them".

Moreover, since their heritage is older than 2.5 centuries, theyve logically concluded that not every kid is the next Isaac Newton. Some kids just make better mechanics than physicists. Hence, early vocational education for those who elect it.

Not so in America! Everyone here is created equal, therefore we are ALL educated equally. What a complete waste of resources and time. Some people arent worth the effort, there is no problem with that mantra until the people who arent worth it outnumber those that are. Ergo, American students.

[Blake]

I'm thinking of home schooling my kids. I'll have room for a few more kids. Shoot me over a pm and I will see if ur kid qualifies for my institution. Meals will run you a a buck a day if you choose to have ur kid eat in my kitchen. Hours are from 9-12.

Teaching kids that being gay is gross does nothing to prepare them for the SATs.

Thanks, but I'll pass on having my kid taught by the skull grinder.

[Blake]

Most parents, in case you havent noticed, are negligent morons. When 70% of the kids in public school come from parents who are almost completely uninvolved in their education, you have the American system.


These would be my sentiments.

I would agree with the part where it's a main reason why private schools are better.......the parents care.

[jack sommerset]

Teaching kids that being gay is gross does nothing to prepare them for the SATs.

Thanks, but I'll pass on having my kid taught by the skull grinder.

No problem but for the record there will be no sex education taught on my campus. I'll leave that for the kids parents/guardians to discuss.

[boutons_deux]

Here's one of the nuttiest Repugs assholes and how he talks to K-12 students, the other one is also King (New York)

Steve King: I Often Raise 'Abortion Issue' To School Kids, Even At Kindergarten Level

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/03/steve-king-abortion_n_803694.html

[frodo]

I have a question. I understand the constitutional aspect of vouchers (i.e. the problem it creates regarding separation of church and state), but I want to know what is wrong with them otherwise?

This is an honest question.

public education bestowed you a home, a citizenship etc... everything you have, your just naturally speaking good of the bridge that carried you over, really no surprise

[Nbadan]

No Dan. Ask for the "all funds" budget. These numbers are higher.

:lol

There has to be some federal oversight of schools, just like there has to be some oversight of greedy banks, coal mines, and Wall Street.....you would have those costs whether we had private schools or public schools

[Nbadan]

To be fair, the winston school costs 15k a year, and services students that public schools also must service.

Those special needs kids are exactly the kids which private schools would throw under the bus...there are special schools that handle some of these kids, but as you mentioned, the costs is often twice or more than it is in public schools and the need in most communities is so great that it would overwhelm all private schools...

[Nbadan]

And yet, private schools generally turn out more highly-educated students for less money. Could it be that these things you mention are actually detrimental to the performance of public schools?

blah....right-wing talking point.....why are you comparing the best private schools to avg or below avg. public schools? There are many very poor charter schools out there too....

[Nbadan]

Make the public schools perform. Get rid of teachers who don't teach, get back to the basics of education and remove the social agendas. Return control back to the communities. That would make a big difference.

Texas sets it own standards, community leaders and parents make important decisions that effect schools in their area, and low=performing schools are 'restructured' if they do not perform to standards set by Texas politicians...the result? among the worst in the nation....

[Nbadan]

WC is perfectly out of touch, with bubba-level simplistic ideas to a very complex problem with no practical chance of being implemented. WC never say an Ivory Tower he didn't view the world from.

He is very apt at parroting wing-nut talking points, but clearly does not understand the complexity of the problem...to WC, problems associated with poverty, parent and family neglect and abuse, PTSD in kids, schizophrenia, disassociation syndrome...everything will disappear if we just privatize schools....what a simpleton.

[Nbadan]

Absolutely we have solved something. It allows those right on the edge like me to send my kids to private school. I can probably do it without, but it will be difficult. I also know many who arent on the edge, but they are close and an extra 2-3k could allow them to send their kids to private school. It is opening the way for more to have a choice about which school to send their kids to.

Believe it or not, there are many poor kids whose parents DO care, but cannot provide for a better education.

Those costs would not go away though....you would still needs schools with very high costs, because the kids need so many special services which would need to be paid for, so even if you got money for your kid, you would still have to pay for schools for kids that cannot get into private schools...

[Nbadan]

Those poor (or rich, or middle class) kids whose parents do not care about their education are not going to benefit either way. There is nothing I, or you can do about that.

Who are you to hold moral authority over the lives of other people?

...are poor kids responsible for the economic and and (often) bad family and community situations they are born into? ....that is a very elitist attitude

....despite their often horrendous situations, many poor kids do very well in school, in fact, the great majority do OK, but those aren't the kids that make the right-wing headlines...

[Nbadan]

TX underspends per inmate (missing out 5000 guards) but it's still twice the expense per student. The TX MIC really need to up it game, get them 5000 guards hired, non-unionized, of course.

...some wing-nuts would rather put these kids in prisons than educate them and make sure they become productive members of a community...but the vast majority have never really put any time in studying the problem and believe that teachers, administrators, and school districts are out to indoctrinate their children...what morons...

[Blake]

CROFL fucked up marriage all in the name of the babbeh :lol

CROFL soliciting guys photos for a "school project"

:lol:lol

[Blake]

AT least I can call myself a man, you turned your dick and balls in when your wife fucked another man and you did nothing about it :rollin

you sound like vulvaface, which sounds like mavs>spurs

CROFL it would explain your near genius posts

[Blake]

Hey genius, what does any of that have to do with another man's penis inside your wife?

Nothing at all. Why are you suddenly so interested in what another man's penis is doing? Are you going to start asking for my facebook picture too?

[Blake]

No, I simply want to know what on earth possesses a man to stay with a cheating wife? SHE FUCKING LET ANOTHER MAN HAVE HIS WAY WITH HER. Serious question? You're letting men everywhere down and it's so pathetic it really irks me.

I haven't given any details about my current situation in nearly 3 months.

You're letting a horribly ignorant assumption about a sports messageboard poster continue to irk you after 3 months?

CROFL

[Blake]

first thing on this forum that's every bothered me in the slightest i might add. What gives?

crofl

[Blake]

Blake youre either worlds #1 pussy or #1 troll. which is it?

Neither. More faulty assumptions on your part based on a post from 3 months ago.

CROFL

[Winehole23]

CROFL soliciting guys photos for a "school project"

:lol:lolLike you said in another thread (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162281&highlight=tits), the NBA forum might sooner oblige the implicit degeneracy of such a request.

[Blake]

So enlighten me. Updates?

Life is good at the moment. :tu

[DarkReign]

Who are you to hold moral authority over the lives of other people?

Im the motherfucker paying for them, thats who I am.

Uninvolved parents are the problem with Public Education and no amount of government oversight can force them to improve.

[Blake]

Did you dump her or not wise guy?

She is in the legal processes of getting dumped.

Your three months of being irked over my personal life can now be put to rest.

You're welcome.

[Winehole23]

You're monstrously insincere, Tyson. Anyone who read through will see it instantly.

[Winehole23]

Your rudeness to Blake was plain for all to see.

[Blake]

CROFL fucked up marriage all in the name of the babbeh :lol


The political forum is the one forum on this site that I DON'T troll. Maybe that's why you'd think that I'm insincere.

CROFL sincerity

[Wild Cobra]

Im the motherfucker paying for them, thats who I am.

Uninvolved parents are the problem with Public Education and no amount of government oversight can force them to improve.
Though I agree that is the major problem with our youth, the schools have also had their hands tied when it comes to kids. It takes the schools being run at a community level, to handle various problems,. than the one-size-fits-all approach of the governments least common denominator approach.

Schools lack the ability to impose good disciple too. I say let them start spanking kids, embarrass them in class, etc. Shame works wonders.

[Nbadan]

America's lost city...


Detroit’s financial manager, Robert Bobb, wants to close 70 more schools to help close the city’s $327 million budget deficit. Bobb said that the school closings will increase high school class sizes to an appalling 62 students per class. 60 schools have already been shut down over the past two years. The plan also calls for laying off 249 teachers and extends a plan that deducts $250 per period from teachers’ paychecks.

Michael Dunn
Modern School


apalling

[TheSullyMonster]

Many of them do. All 7 of my kid's teachers this year have Master's Degrees. 5 have Master's in the subject they are teaching. 1 has a Master's in Curriculum. The other one has a Bachelor's in the field she is teaching and a Master's in a different, but somewhat related field.

I meant at the state or national level. Certainly individual schools have great staff.