The Flamethrowing Five

[timvp]

Tonight Pop once again went to The Flamethrowing Five© and it again produced. With Manu Ginobili, Gary Neal, George Hill, Matt Bonner and Antonio McDyess on the court at the same time, the opposition really has a difficult time figuring out how to defend that group. That's five knock-down shooters, including four elite three-point shooters.

The offense becomes pretty damn simple when The Flamethrowing Five is on the court. All they have to do is run a pick-and-roll, look for any help defender, pass it to the help defender's man and shoot the open jumper. If there's no help, all five players can move well enough to go all the way to the bucket.

Obviously, defense is this combo's weakness. But with Hill able to guard three positions and Neal able to body bigger opponents, they actually do decent work on that end. Add in the fact that Bonner and McDyess are the best bigmen on the team when it comes to moving their feet and it's a group that can scramble to cover any mismatches.

Tonight, The Flamethrowing Five outscored the Mavs 19-2 in 4:21 of action. (Why Pop didn't use the lineup more may be a question for another thread.) On the season, if my math is right, The Flamethrowing Five has now outscored opponents 131-94 in 49:41. :wow

And perhaps the best part of this lineup is that it allows arguably the two best players on the Spurs to rest.

My question for SpursTalk is whether you think this is a gimmick lineup that will be exposed come playoff time or if it's something Pop should go to more often. Right now, he tends to use it mostly when the offense is ragged and he wants to jumpstart it. Should it be used more liberally?








P.S.

Before you reply, the key word was "arguably".

[DMC]

I think any lineup that doesn't win the ring is eventually exposed. That doesn't make it a gimmick.

[TDMVPDPOY]

4/5 of them players can attack the rim when they pumpfake the defender and challenge the defense

how about first basket from bonner, the tip in jam out of nowhere...

[ajballer4]

On the season, if my math is right, The Flamethrowing Five has now outscored opponents 131-94 in 49:41. :wow
[/SIZE]

Nice stat.

[Mugen]

any group with "Flame" in the nickname must include RJ.


i know, sorry.

[spurs1990]

Plus we'll be able to slot James or Jefferson into the FTF.

I would say if they're healthy come May and are the 1 seed, you might as well count on the 5th banner in the SBC center.

[jjktkk]

Tonight Pop once again went to The Flamethrowing Five© and it again produced. With Manu Ginobili, Gary Neal, George Hill, Matt Bonner and Antonio McDyess on the court at the same time, the opposition really has a difficult time figuring out how to defend that group. That's five knock-down shooters, including four elite three-point shooters.

The offense becomes pretty damn simple when The Flamethrowing Five is on the court. All they have to do is run a pick-and-roll, look for any help defender, pass it to the help defender's man and shoot the open jumper. If there's no help, all five players can move well enough to go all the way to the bucket.

Obviously, defense is this combo's weakness. But with Hill able to guard three positions and Neal able to body bigger opponents, they actually do decent work on that end. Add in the fact that Bonner and McDyess are the best bigmen on the team when it comes to moving their feet and it's a group that can scramble to cover any mismatches.

Tonight, The Flamethrowing Five outscored the Mavs 19-2 in 4:21 of action. (Why Pop didn't use the lineup more may be a question for another thread.) On the season, if my math is right, The Flamethrowing Five has now outscored opponents 131-94 in 49:41. :wow

And perhaps the best part of this lineup is that it allows arguably the two best players on the Spurs to rest.

My question for SpursTalk is whether you think this is a gimmick lineup that will be exposed come playoff time or if it's something Pop should go to more often. Right now, he tends to use it mostly when the offense is ragged and he wants to jumpstart it. Should it be used more liberally?








P.S.

Before you reply, the key word was "arguably".

I think some Spurs fans get alittle nervous when they see the Spurs play "smallball", but IMO, there basing that off the previous versions from recent seasons. This new and improved small ball has shown to be very effective. Good defenses might be able to slow it down, but not to the point where Pop would have to quit using it altogether.

[m33p0]

only for short streches... while the opposition is still scratching their heads. any longer than that will be asking too much.

[TDMVPDPOY]

I think some Spurs fans get alittle nervous when they see the Spurs play "smallball", but IMO, there basing that off the previous versions from recent seasons. This new and improved small ball has shown to be very effective. Good defenses might be able to slow it down, but not to the point where Pop would have to quit using it altogether.

its only nervous when the opposing team gives you that open shot, you should take it....bonner has no business bouncing the ball lookinf a open man, just pull the trigger and shoot

as for neal, he sometimes pull a fake and dribble into the key for no reason only to have the defense collapse on him and going for a low % shot...i prefer him to shoot the 3 then passing it out to any available shooter waiting on the perimeter....

[ElNono]

I think it's basically Gino running the second unit much like last season, but with Neal instead of Mason/Bogans... I think Manu and Dice run a very good pick and roll already and Neal being hot definitely helps when Bonner can't buy a basket.
Its just another small ball lineup combo to throw out there. I think some teams are not going to respect some of the shooters and if we don't hit then it's not going to be as effective. But having options is always good.

[DMC]

How about Bonner with that top shelf attempt in the 3rd? LOL...

I was like "what the hell Matt, if you are going to do that, put that damn thing down, don't go in there and look like an ass clown".

That guy's got balls. I like balls.

[DMC]

its only nervous when the opposing team gives you that open shot, you should take it....bonner has no business bouncing the ball lookinf a open man, just pull the trigger and shoot

as for neal, he sometimes pull a fake and dribble into the key for no reason only to have the defense collapse on him and going for a low % shot...i prefer him to shoot the 3 then passing it out to any available shooter waiting on the perimeter....

They have to drive into the paint or at least close the gap to keep the defense honest. Any team can defend an all three point shooting team.

[DMC]

any group with "Flame" in the nickname must include RJ.


i know, sorry.
Georgie is cute too though.

[TDMVPDPOY]

NEAL is a better ball handler then RM, he is limited to what he can do on the run, but he knows his strengths and weaknesses...as for RM when he was force to create the offense on the run, dude had no inside game or a floater to speak of....

nearly every clown on the spurs team has a floater or the underhand layup drill....

[ShoogarBear]

I think that inarguably, this is the lamest nickname seen in some time.

And whether it's going to be effective for real depends on what Playoff Neal is like, and whether Playoff Bonner is any different from his brethren.

[ShoogarBear]

I mean it sounds like a bunch of circus performers trying out for Marvel Comics.

[timvp]

Plus we'll be able to slot James or Jefferson into the FTF.

For some reason, the lineup doesn't work as well with RJ included. I think it's probably due to him not being a quick enough passer. The Flaming Five are all better passers, tbh.


Matt Bonner scrambling on defense looks like a circus performer trying out for Marvel Comics.

True.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Well, while this Five seems to have a lot of potential, the +/- stats overall tells you that it is only fourth in the list of most productive lineups and fifth in the number of minutes played with the same lineup -

Link here (http://basketballvalue.com/teamunits.php?year=2010-2011&sortnumber=17&sortorder=DESC&team=SAS).

So, Pop is actually staying true to this lineup's potential.

[mazerrackham]

jeez, that unit's posting 124.44 points per 100 possessions? That's an insane offensive efficiency...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

We used a similar lineup but with blair for dice to blow up the lakers game didn't we?

[GSH]

Obviously, defense is this combo's weakness. But with Hill able to guard three positions and Neal able to body bigger opponents, they actually do decent work on that end. Add in the fact that Bonner and McDyess are the best bigmen on the team when it comes to moving their feet and it's a group that can scramble to cover any mismatches.

Tonight, The Flamethrowing Five outscored the Mavs 19-2 in 4:21 of action. (Why Pop didn't use the lineup more may be a question for another thread.) On the season, if my math is right, The Flamethrowing Five has now outscored opponents 131-94 in 49:41. :wow

My question for SpursTalk is whether you think this is a gimmick lineup that will be exposed come playoff time or if it's something Pop should go to more often. Right now, he tends to use it mostly when the offense is ragged and he wants to jumpstart it. Should it be used more liberally?

That combo is holding its holding opponents to the equivalent of 91 points per game, overall. That doesn't look like they are weak on defense at all. The problem is that is that there are times when they blitz the opponent, like last night - and other times where they do allow a lot more points.

Put another way: before last night's 19-2 run, they had outscored their opponents by 112-92, in 45:20. That's the equivalent of 97.5 ppg by their opponents. Take out a couple more of those big blitzes, and for the remainder they are probably just holding their own - and probably giving up the equivalent of about 102 ppg. Not that holding their own is a bad thing. I would be interested to know how often that lineup has been outscored.

The thing I like about the lineup is that it can do a lot of damage before opponents have a chance to adjust. I don't think there's a question of them getting exposed, so much as how effectively other teams can adjust. I don't think that group can beat the Celtics starting 5, for instance. But they could force the Celtics to bring a couple of their best players back off the bench early, or keep them on the floor too long.

Even against a group of predominantly starters, this group could change the momentum of a game, especially if they are shooting well. By the time the playoffs come around, they will be well scouted, so they aren't likely to catch anyone totally off guard. But they are just such a change of pace that even starters have to adjust the way they are playing.

I'd like to see them get a little more time in the regular season. And I think they will continue to have pretty much the same role and impact in the playoffs.

BTW - did you notice how much difference it made having Neal on the floor against that zone defense, at the end of the game last night? I think it was a huge mistake not getting him out there sooner. Just one more reason I don't think Pop will shorten the rotation as much in the playoffs this year.