Ed Reed finishes with league lead 8 interceptions...

[DeadlyDynasty]

...in just 10 games. :wow

Might be the best defensive player ever, tbh.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Night Train had 14 in 12.

In a non-passing league.

As a rookie.

[LnGrrrR]

Eh, not best ever, by far. There's a guy named LT that you might have heard of... and Deion Sanders says hi too.

[jack sommerset]

LT was a BADASS. Best ever!!!!

[VBM]

and Deion Sanders says hi too.

One of the greatest cover corners ever...although dude was a matador whenever it came time to tackle somebody

[DeadlyDynasty]

Night Train had 14 in 12.

In a non-passing league.

As a rookie.

Impressive, I wasn't even thinking about players from the 50's:lol


Eh, not best ever, by far. There's a guy named LT that you might have heard of... and Deion Sanders says hi too.

I wouldn't say by far. Deion was a sick CB and hell of a ballhawk, but as another poster said he couldn't make a tackle to save his life. You're right about LT tho, he's gotta be the GOAT.

[Booharv]

According to Lawrence Taylor's Wikipedia article (which appears to be well sourced and accurate) Sporting News, the NFL Network, and others have ranked him as the best defensive player in history and a top 2-3 player overall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Taylor

Kinda sucks that he's such an embarrassment to the league off the field.

Even that guy they're trying to put up as the NFL's Hollinger at ESPN fellates him:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=3312830

[Booharv]

Another article on this topic from a few years where they poll a few NFL players, sportswriters, and one NFL personnel guy (sicko convicted child molester Jeremy Green, but still):

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/print?id=2823763&type=story

[san antonio spurs]

Impressive, I wasn't even thinking about players from the 50's:lol



I wouldn't say by far. Deion was a sick CB and hell of a ballhawk, but as another poster said he couldn't make a tackle to save his life. You're right about LT tho, he's gotta be the GOAT.
He said numerous times that his shoulders were made for suits and not tackling

[gaKNOW!blee]

bruce smith bitches.

200 sacks as a 3-4 DE?

[Phillip]

Eh, not best ever, by far. There's a guy named LT that you might have heard of... and Deion Sanders says hi too.

Asomugha > Deion

Asomugha can tackle as well as any CB ever, and shut down top tier receivers like Moss, Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, etc... despite being on a team with no pass rush, giving the offense all day to throw. Deion was great but also was on teams with great all-around defenses and pass rush like the Cowboys and 49ers.

My vote for best (although I think the better words would be "Most Impactful) defender would go to Ray Lewis though.

[Greg Oden]

rofl raiders homer

[monosylab1k]

My vote for best (although I think the better words would be "Most Impactful) defender would go to Ray Lewis though.

Oh hell no. If we're going MLB, then Singletary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis.

[LnGrrrR]

Oh hell no. If we're going MLB, then Singletary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis.

I think Lewis could be a better head coach though. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

And while Ray Lewis is better, Andre Tippett was no slouch.

[Phillip]

Oh hell no. If we're going MLB, then Singletary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lewis.

how so?

[monosylab1k]

how so?

It's not like they're not even close, they are, but give me Singletary any day. 85 Bears defense >>>>>>>> 2000 Ravens defense.

Also, name another LB on the Bears in the 80's. You can't. I can't. Nobody but Bill Swersky's Super Fans can, because Singletary never had the benefit of fellow LB's as talented as Peter Boulware, Terrell Suggs, Adalius Thomas, or Bart Scott. The guys around him were talented, but he was a one man wrecking crew.

And, non football related, Mike Singletary never helped stab a guy to death.

[monosylab1k]

bruce smith bitches.

200 sacks as a 3-4 DE?

lol wide right, curbstomping, curbstomping, semi-curbstomping.

[Phillip]

It's not like they're not even close, they are, but give me Singletary any day. 85 Bears defense >>>>>>>> 2000 Ravens defense.

Also, name another LB on the Bears in the 80's. You can't. I can't. Nobody but Bill Swersky's Super Fans can, because Singletary never had the benefit of fellow LB's as talented as Peter Boulware, Terrell Suggs, Adalius Thomas, or Bart Scott. The guys around him were talented, but he was a one man wrecking crew.

And, non football related, Mike Singletary never helped stab a guy to death.

85 Bears defense was fantastic, but only for its era. The 46 defense that made their defense so unique was a set that worked great against Run-Heavy teams that focused on passing mainly through play-action and out of I-Form sets. However it would get absolutely shredded by teams that used Shotgun/Spread formations. That is why the Dolphins were the one team to beat them that year (and beat them solidly at that, 38-24) because they had an offense that could run those spread sets that would give the 46 fits. Teams can't run a 46 today on a consistent basis like those Bears teams, because of that exact reason. It would get shredded by offenses like the Colts, Patriots, Eagles, and Saints, and probably a lot more, as offenses have evolved so much, and passing schemes are much more advanced and widely seen since the 80s.

Don't forget that the Bears also had a far superior offense to the Ravens, finishing 2nd in the NFL in points, and 7th in yards, while the Ravens finished 14th in points, and 16th in yards. The Bears defense benefitted greatly from having Walter Payton running over everyone, as their offense pretty much could just milk the clock all game riding his back, with some play action short passes and an occasional deep heave to Willie Gault to keep defenses honest. Statistically, the 2000 Ravens were quite comparable to the 85 Bears defense (slightly superior in some ways, slightly inferior in others, but pretty much even overall), despite not having a talent like Walter Payton to keep the offense flowing and to control the clock to help the defense more fresh and an offense that is actually able to score points, allowing the defense to play more aggressively.

The argument that you "cant name another Bears LB" is pretty pointless. People of a newer generation like us might not be able to name some of those linebackers, but do you think people 20 years from now who didn't grow up watching the Ravens in the 2000's very much, will be able to remember anyone other than Ray Lewis from the Ravens LB core? Strongly doubt it. MAYBE Bart Scott, but that's it, at best. I bet a lot of people even today don't have a strong memory of Adaleus Thomas or Peter Boulware, as they were a couple of guys who had a few nice seasons, but were never consistently great. Both of those guys were also more of Hybrid LBs, as they were constantly switching between OLB, and DE, and were best suited as pass rushers as the Ravens were also constantly going back and forth between 4-3 and 3-4 defensive sets to keep opponents guessing more.

Truth is, that 85 defensive core was obviously pretty loaded, considering 7 guys were either pro-bowlers or 1st-team All-Pro on the defense alone, which is less than the 3 pro-bowl/1st-team All-Pro (Ray Lewis being the lone All-Pro nominee) that the Ravens had. If anything, Ray Lewis was more of a 1 man wrecking crew than Mike Singletary was.

[gaKNOW!blee]

lol wide right, curbstomping, curbstomping, semi-curbstomping.

lol has nothing to do with it

[Zelophehad]

name another LB on the Bears in the 80's. You can't. I can't. Nobody but Bill Swersky's Super Fans can

Wow, you really have to know jack shit about football to have never heard of Wilber Marshall.

[monosylab1k]

Wow, you really have to know jack shit about football to have never heard of Wilber Marshall.

How long did you look at 85 Bears LB's on pro-football-reference.com before pulling this name at random?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The 85 Bears had the best defense I've ever seen. The funny thing is that I can name the front 7 and safeties, but I have no idea who played corner for them.

And one defense that rarely gets mentioned when these talks come up is the Reggie White/Jerome Brown led Eagles' D of the early 90s.

That front four used to destroy opposing OLs and QBs.

[DeadlyDynasty]

That 2000 Ravens D is still the best imo, but I was only 2 years old during the Bears '85 run, so I'm biased. I just think people forget the dominance displayed by that Baltimore team. Didn't they have a 5-game stretch midseason where their offense didn't score a TD, yet they managed to go 3-2 in that span? They also gave Tennessee their first ever home loss (back when the Titans were dominant).

In the playoffs they beat Denver in the WC round 21-3...Denver crossed the 50 yard line ONCE in that game. That's fucking insane.
Next game they traveled to Tennessee--and after an opening td drive by the Titans--they allowed only 3 points the rest of the game and sealed it with a defensive TD, 24-10 win iirc. In the AFC Championship they dominated Oakland in the black hole, 16-3. The superbowl against the G-men was a laugher...34-7, 5 int's of Kerry Collins. Raven D pitched a shutout. Giants' only points came off a KO return.

[Phillip]

That Ravens team relied ENTIRELY on their defense. the team as a whole is fairly weak, but the defense was absolutely ridiculous. its amazing to look at the guys they had on offense, yet somehow they still won a super bowl with those dudes.

[Phillip]

And one defense that rarely gets mentioned when these talks come up is the Reggie White/Jerome Brown led Eagles' D of the early 90s.

That front four used to destroy opposing OLs and QBs.

Man those Eagle's defenses were stacked. I think one year they led the league in scoring defense, rushing defense, and passing defense. Crazy good.

[DeadlyDynasty]

That Ravens team relied ENTIRELY on their defense. the team as a whole is fairly weak, but the defense was absolutely ridiculous. its amazing to look at the guys they had on offense, yet somehow they still won a super bowl with those dudes.

:tu
They sucked something awful on offense...Shannon Sharpe was their only offense in the first 3 playoff games and they still won.

Trent Dilfer
Jamal Lewis
Qadry Ismail
Brandon Stokely (lol Sehorn getting burned)
Shannon Sharpe
Jermaine Lewis

How an offense like that ever won games is a miracle. 2000 Raven D was flat-out disgusting.

[monosylab1k]

85 bears vs 2000 Ravens, the Bears win in a blowout.

the 2000 Ravens took advantage of a really weak few years in the NFL. One group of great teams were on their way out (Cowboys, Niners, etc) and the new crop were either really young or not yet formed (Colts, Patriots, etc). Franchises still hadn't figured out how to stay competitive year after year in the era of free agency and parity. You had 50 year old John Elway winning titles, and of course Brett Favre actually won something, which we know never would have happened unless he had that weak era and got to play a Patriots team that honestly had no business being in a Super Bowl.

From 96 to 2002 was the weakest time the NFL has seen since the 70's tbh.

[rayray2k8]

Ravens are a dark horse to win it all and probably the team that can actually beat New England. But only time will tell.
DD, who you follow?

[DeadlyDynasty]

Ravens are a dark horse to win it all and probably the team that can actually beat New England. But only time will tell.
DD, who you follow?

I'm a Bills fan but since they'll never see the playoffs again I'm pulling for Baltimore in the playoffs this year. That, and the fact they were my preseason pick to win the SB.

[Zelophehad]

How long did you look at 85 Bears LB's on pro-football-reference.com before pulling this name at random?

Holy fuck, this must be the bizarro universe. If you watch any video about that team, he only had what everyone on the team considers the biggest or most memorable play of the season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKkRBBShzaI#t=8m1s

He was an all-pro and pro bowler for two of the greatest teams of all time; the 1985 Bears and 1991 Redskins.

[Phillip]

85 bears vs 2000 Ravens, the Bears win in a blowout.

the 2000 Ravens took advantage of a really weak few years in the NFL. One group of great teams were on their way out (Cowboys, Niners, etc) and the new crop were either really young or not yet formed (Colts, Patriots, etc). Franchises still hadn't figured out how to stay competitive year after year in the era of free agency and parity. You had 50 year old John Elway winning titles, and of course Brett Favre actually won something, which we know never would have happened unless he had that weak era and got to play a Patriots team that honestly had no business being in a Super Bowl.

From 96 to 2002 was the weakest time the NFL has seen since the 70's tbh.

Well yeah, they most likely do beat the Ravens because they were simply a better team. Their offense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Ravens offense. But I'd say the defenses were pretty damn close, not nearly as far apart as you suggest, again because the 85 Bears relied on what is basically a gimmick defense, that worked against 80s offensive schemes, but would have no chance in the league today. If it was such a truly great scheme, it would be still used in the NFL today, as opposed to maybe once a game by one of the Ryan brothers. Of course they were very capable of playing a 4-3, but the 46 is what made them so deadly and such a unique defense. Without the 46, they wouldn't have been nearly as successful as they were.

[Blake]

How an offense like that ever won games is a miracle. 2000 Raven D was flat-out disgusting.

True, however, I think they are a bit overrated though because they played against teams that year that were rather weak on offense.

The toughest QBs they faced were probably Gannon and McNair and neither of them had more than 3500 yards or 28 TDs on the year.

If you look at the following year, they gave up 31 points to Favre's offense and 27 to Peyton's offense.

[monosylab1k]

Holy fuck, this must be the bizarro universe. If you watch any video about that team, he only had what everyone on the team considers the biggest or most memorable play of the season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKkRBBShzaI#t=8m1s

He was an all-pro and pro bowler for two of the greatest teams of all time; the 1985 Bears and 1991 Redskins.

yeah nobody cares. go back to DB.com

[Zelophehad]

yeah nobody cares. go back to DB.com

The db burn is cute, but ineffective since I've still never been there.

Seriously though, you should care since this kind of proves you know shit about football from the 80s. When he left for Washington they gave the Bears two first round picks for him and signed him to an unprecedented fully guaranteed contract making him the highest paid defensive player in the league. Then he made the All-NFL team numerous times and started in several pro bowls for Washington.

[Phillip]

True, however, I think they are a bit overrated though because they played against teams that year that were rather weak on offense.

The toughest QBs they faced were probably Gannon and McNair and neither of them had more than 3500 yards or 28 TDs on the year.

If you look at the following year, they gave up 31 points to Favre's offense and 27 to Peyton's offense.

Yeah the Ravens definitely faced some weaker opponents and offenses, but at the same time, like I've said, the Ravens offense was absolute crap too. You could easily argue that if they had an offense like the 85 Bears, they would have been CONSIDERABLY more dominant, because they wouldnt have to rely as much on their defense to win games for them the way they did.

[Booharv]

Wilber Marshall was a pretty big deal in the 80s and early 90s. Not a star but a really, really good elite level player. I read somewhere he's crippled now like so many other retired players.

[monosylab1k]

The db burn is cute, but ineffective since I've still never been there.

Seriously though, you should care since this kind of proves you know shit about football from the 80s. When he left for Washington they gave the Bears two first round picks for him and signed him to an unprecedented fully guaranteed contract making him the highest paid defensive player in the league. Then he made the All-NFL team numerous times and started in several pro bowls for Washington.

Good for him. Not a Hall of Famer LOL

[Zelophehad]

Good for him. Not a Hall of Famer LOL

Quick tip: You might want to edit "name another LB" to "name other HOF LB" in your op itt at this point. Otherwise the HOF stuff is irrelevant. Lol ticketfan

[monosylab1k]

:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

[Zelophehad]

^nice work. Consistent with the effort level you've maintained throughout this "discussion".

[monosylab1k]

:cry ^nice work. :cry :cry Consistent with the effort :cry :cry :cry level you've :cry maintained throughout :cry :cry :cry :cry this "discussion". :cry

[Blake]

Yeah the Ravens definitely faced some weaker opponents and offenses, but at the same time, like I've said, the Ravens offense was absolute crap too. You could easily argue that if they had an offense like the 85 Bears, they would have been CONSIDERABLY more dominant, because they wouldnt have to rely as much on their defense to win games for them the way they did.

The Ravens offense ranked 14th in points scored and 16th in yards gained. They were right at average.

The passing game was mediocre, but the running game with Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes was #5 in attempts #5 in yards and #8 in YPA. They were also #1 in fewest fumbles lost (#1 in def fumble takeaways).

It wasn't great like what Billick obviously had in Minny, but it was a decent enough conservative ball control offense that got the job done.

[Phillip]

The Ravens offense ranked 14th in points scored and 16th in yards gained. They were right at average.

The passing game was mediocre, but the running game with Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes was #5 in attempts #5 in yards and #8 in YPA. They were also #1 in fewest fumbles lost (#1 in def fumble takeaways).

It wasn't great like what Billick obviously had in Minny, but it was a decent enough conservative ball control offense that got the job done.

Obviously it got it done, because they won a superbowl. But they didn't have anywhere close to a top 10 offense like the 85 Bears had, or arguably the best RB of all time in Walter Payton. If I recall, someone earlier posted that there was like a 5 game stretch in which the offense of the Ravens didn't score a single touchdown, and they won 3 of them or something like that. That's complete defensive domination.

[Blake]

like I've said, the Ravens offense was absolute crap.


Obviously it got it done, because they won a superbowl.

getting job done = absolute crap.

k.

[Jose Canseco]

Back on topic... best ever defensive player is obviously pushing it, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to claim he's the greatest playmaking safety ever. He's had an unbelievable career. How old is he? Didn't he talk about retiring a few years ago because of back problems? Or is that someone else I'm thinking about? The guy is still a beast at his age.

[Blake]

Back on topic... best ever defensive player is obviously pushing it, but I don't think it's a stretch at all to claim he's the greatest playmaking safety ever. He's had an unbelievable career. How old is he? Didn't he talk about retiring a few years ago because of back problems? Or is that someone else I'm thinking about? The guy is still a beast at his age.

I'd probably argue that it helps Reed that he has guys like Ray Lewis playing in front of him.

I'd take Ronnie Lott over him any day of the week.

[LnGrrrR]

The Ravens offense ranked 14th in points scored and 16th in yards gained. They were right at average.
The passing game was mediocre, but the running game with Jamal Lewis and Priest Holmes was #5 in attempts #5 in yards and #8 in YPA. They were also #1 in fewest fumbles lost (#1 in def fumble takeaways).

I wonder how many of those points were scored on a short field, given this data.

After all, the main reason Pats have scored 30+ 8 games in a row or so are due to the sick turnover differentials they've had.

[Phillip]

getting job done = absolute crap.

k.

getting the job done often due to the defense constantly getting them more opportunities to be on the field and shorter fields to work with.

its much easier for an offense to flow when they have 40-60 yard fields to work with every posession, as opposed to 70-90 yard fields. i strongly doubt that if they consistently had bad field position and didn't have the ball as often as they did, their offense would be far less productive than it was. granted, that obviously played a factor in the 85 Bears offense as well, but at the same time, they were still CLEARLY superior to the 2000 Ravens offense.

[Phillip]

I think Brian Dawkins definitely deserves some consideration as one of the best safeties ever. Constantly overlooked, but the dude has been a monster his whole career. Consistent. Great in coverage. Can play both safety positions. Feared hitter, great tackler, fantastic athlete.

[DeadlyDynasty]

I think Brian Dawkins definitely deserves some consideration as one of the best safeties ever. Constantly overlooked, but the dude has been a monster his whole career. Consistent. Great in coverage. Can play both safety positions. Feared hitter, great tackler, fantastic athlete.

Dawkins reminds me of Steve Atwater...both great all-around players and very underrated.

IMO I think Sean Taylor would've been one of the best ever had he not been killed.

[monosylab1k]

IMO I think Sean Taylor would've been one of the best ever had he not been killed.

if he was better in coverage, then maybe. I saw that guy take shitty angles all the time. But holy crap could he hit somebody. That hit on the punter in the Pro Bowl is still awesome, even if it was kind of a punk move.

[Blake]

getting the job done often due to the defense constantly getting them more opportunities to be on the field and shorter fields to work with.

its much easier for an offense to flow when they have 40-60 yard fields to work with every posession, as opposed to 70-90 yard fields. i strongly doubt that if they consistently had bad field position and didn't have the ball as often as they did, their offense would be far less productive than it was. granted, that obviously played a factor in the 85 Bears offense as well, but at the same time, they were still CLEARLY superior to the 2000 Ravens offense.


I wonder how many of those points were scored on a short field, given this data.

After all, the main reason Pats have scored 30+ 8 games in a row or so are due to the sick turnover differentials they've had.

I dunno where their average starting line of scrimmage was per drive, but although they had problems punching the ball into the end zone, they were still 16th out of 31 teams in total yardage and 14th in scoring.

Hardly awesome, but hardly absolute crap. Pretty much just average.

[DeadlyDynasty]

if he was better in coverage, then maybe. I saw that guy take shitty angles all the time. But holy crap could he hit somebody. That hit on the punter in the Pro Bowl is still awesome, even if it was kind of a punk move.

He did occasionally take awful angles, but often time his freakish speed and athletic ability would help him recover. He was very young too, and angles of pursuit is definitely a coachable thing. That being said, like you alluded to he could knock the shit out of people. He also had a knack for the ball that mimicked Reed or Polamalu at times. That 2005 WC game against TB still sticks out to me--he was amazing, and won that game for the Skins.

I remember there was a point when people were arguing over who was the better safety: Roy Williams or Sean Taylor :lmao

[Blake]

I remember there was a point when people were arguing over who was the better safety: Roy Williams or Sean Taylor :lmao

that should tell you something about Taylor right there.

[monosylab1k]

I remember there was a point when people were arguing over who was the better safety: Roy Williams or Sean Taylor :lmao

:lmao yeah that's insane. Roy wasn't even all that great of a hitter. He rarely ever got a big hit when the team needed it, or on a receiver, generally it was on a running back who had a shitty screen pass thrown to him so he needed a second to recover, and there comes Roy leading with his helmet. In the open field against a receiver going right at him, Roy was an ankle tackler (as I think Santana Moss once called him).

That was another great thing about Taylor, he was for the most part a clean hitter. Leading with the shoulder and putting it square into a dude's chest.

[DeadlyDynasty]

that should tell you something about Taylor right there.

:rolleyes

[Blake]

:rolleyes

so people actually had legit arguments about how Williams was better than Taylor?

[DeadlyDynasty]

so people actually had legit arguments about how Williams was better than Taylor?

Legit? No. Visual evidence trumps everything else, and even Stevie Wonder could see that ST was world's better than that overrated POS.

[monosylab1k]

so people actually had legit arguments about how Williams was better than Taylor?

No, people compared them because Taylor is a hard hitter and Roy had the reputation of a hard hitter. Don't pretend you don't remember Roy's first couple of years in the league where he was living off his big plays at Oklahoma and that big hit on Emmitt, only for people to quickly realize that he sucked.

[Blake]

No, people compared them because Taylor is a hard hitter and Roy had the reputation of a hard hitter. Don't pretend you don't remember Roy's first couple of years in the league where he was living off his big plays at Oklahoma and that big hit on Emmitt, only for people to quickly realize that he sucked.

so the arguments that Williams was better than Taylor were legit then?

k.

[monosylab1k]

so the arguments that Williams was better than Taylor were legit then?

k.

4/10 troll job

[LnGrrrR]

Ryan Leaf was compared to Manning when they were about to be drafted. Does that mean that Manning vs Ryan is a legitimate comparison now?