Defense Gameplan against Knicks

[timvp]

First of all, props to the Knicks. That was a got damn impressive offensive display. Their passing was excellent and their shooting was even better. The 1999 Spurs wouldn't have had much success against the Knicks on this night.

That said, two mystifying defensive decisions seemed to doom the Spurs. First of all, why was the gameplan to go under the screen against Felton? He's a good shooter who became a great shooter once he knew the Spurs were going to dare him to shoot each and every time he was in a pick-and-roll. I realize going over the pick-and-roll would have allowed him to get more penetration ... but with the way he was murdering the Spurs from the perimeter, a change to the plan would have been nice at some point.

The only time the Spurs had moderate success against Felton was when they were switching everything. But when Duncan on the floor, that was no longer possible in the fourth quarter. At that point, going over the screen and forcing him to make plays going toward the basket would have been nice.

The other issue I had was the decision to throw hard double-teams at Stoudemire in the second half. With as hot as the shooters around Stoudemire were firing, it was suicide. I'd much rather Stoudemire take a contested 17-footer than allow an open three-pointer time after time. I know Stoudemire isn't exactly Magic Johnson when it comes to passing but he's a good enough passer to find the open man when he's doubled so far away from the hoop while facing up.

Again, the Knicks deserve a lot of the credit for putting 128 points on the board but those two coaching decisions weren't helping matters. It was almost as if Pop wanted to expose his own team's defensive shortcomings . . .

[honestfool84]

I understand the back-to-back against the Celtics is looming but WTF. Another 1:30 wouldn't hurt anything and at this pace, that could be another five possessions.


It was almost as if Pop wanted to expose his own team's defensive shortcomings . . .

[xellos88330]

After reading this it helped me think of something.

I think you are spot on as far as going under the screen on Felton. It would force him to become a driver and normally the easiest pass to make (If the help defense was there to contest at the rim) would be in the corner for a 3.

I believe the Spurs have the footspeed to close out on the corner pretty well considering it will keep Timmy under the basket and free up a guard to close out. What do you think timvp?

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Looked to me like Pop came up with a plan, obviously involving the two aspects you outline, and then he panicked during the game as the Knicks' hot shooting continued no matter what he did.

I bet he'll make some major adjustments when they come to SA.

[Warlord23]

The perimeter D was lazy. They went under screens far too often and didn't rotate to cover shooters either. That keystone cops sequence when 2 Spurs collided and gave the Knicks an easy bucket was the last straw. Pop needs to start benching people for not showing up on defense.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

For mine, Chandler presents the biggest worry - we have no-one outside of RJ who even has a hope of keeping up with him.

Like I've said a number of times, the long tweener 3s really present a problem for this roster. It is the one glaring hole. I wonder if James Anderson might have had more success?

[xellos88330]

For mine, Chandler presents the biggest worry - we have no-one outside of RJ who even has a hope of keeping up with him.

Like I've said a number of times, the long tweener 3s really present a problem for this roster. It is the one glaring hole. I wonder if James Anderson might have had more success?

That is a good question.

I think he could have done better if he had been playing the whole season. Judging by his pre-injury performance, he might have been outmatched. I am not saying that he would be useless as his size/athleticism really could have helped regardless. Not enough data to really go by.

[ALVAREZ6]

Again, the Knicks deserve a lot of the credit for putting 128 points on the board but those two coaching decisions weren't helping matters. It was almost as if Pop wanted to expose his own team's defensive shortcomings . . .
...yyyyyup.

Pop is a fucking moron. At least when it comes to teams that can shoot from outside. The Suns series was fucking embarrassing. Pathetic.

Man to man and goddamnit that should be it against the Knicks, why can't anyone play any fucking decent defense? Amare is the only player that could cause problems on that roster when it comes to creating offense off the dribble against the defender.

[timvp]

The perimeter D was lazy. They went under screens far too often and didn't rotate to cover shooters either.

Oddly, that laziness of going under the screen was by design.


Like I've said a number of times, the long tweener 3s really present a problem for this roster.

I haven't really noticed that weakness. Other examples?

[GSH]

When everybody on a team is shooting, it's tough to find a good defensive plan, other than to have Bruce lock their best player down. I'm afraid if they did come over the screens, they still would have gotten torched on the penetration. And when anyone came over to help tonight, the Knicks were quick to find the next open man to knock a shot down. After a while it feeds on itself.

The Knicks played a perfect game. The Spurs would have had to play a perfect game to beat them. Most teams in the NBA would have gotten blown out against the Knicks, they way they played tonight.

I know Pop always says that defense is the answer, but some nights another team can be impossible to stop. I bet we could look up a few games against the old Suns where they scored just like this. Over 7 games, they won't keep that up. That was always the difference, and will be this year.

[Warlord23]

Oddly, that laziness of going under the screen was by design.


Are you sure of that? There was a sequence (as you noted in your OP) where they began to switch. They abandoned that too soon, whether or not Duncan was involved. On a few other occasions they let the ball handler penetrate, but the poor rotations led to easy shots for the NYK.

If they had stuck to any one of those tactics for over 75% of the game, I'd agree it was by design. However, (and this is a rough estimate), they went under the screen about 50% of the time, let the PG penetrate about 35% of the time, and switched about 15% of the time.

I'd be really surprised if Pop intended it to be that way.

[timvp]

Are you sure of that? There was a sequence (as you noted in your OP) where they began to switch. They abandoned that too soon, whether or not Duncan was involved. On a few other occasions they let the ball handler penetrate, but the poor rotations led to easy shots for the NYK.

If they had stuck to any one of those tactics for over 75% of the game, I'd agree it was by design. However, (and this is a rough estimate), they went under the screen about 50% of the time, let the PG penetrate about 35% of the time, and switched about 15% of the time.

I'd be really surprised if Pop intended it to be that way.

When Duncan was on the floor, the Spurs went under the screen because they didn't want Duncan switched onto Felton. When Duncan was on the bench, the Spurs switched.

[Arc]

i agree with gsh. the only way to beat the knicks tonight would have to be with better O. they were straight up monsters.

[spurtech09]

Who cares....bring on the celtics

[EricB]

For mine, Chandler presents the biggest worry - we have no-one outside of RJ who even has a hope of keeping up with him.

Like I've said a number of times, the long tweener 3s really present a problem for this roster. It is the one glaring hole. I wonder if James Anderson might have had more success?


Yeah they need to get that guy for the 2 games against the KNicks and 2 against Orlando.

[EricB]

BTW I don't know how supportive Pop was about going under the pick on Felton cause it seemed everytime they did it Pop had a gesture of some sort....

[Blackjack]

I haven't really noticed that weakness. Other examples?

I wouldn't say tweeners, as Ruff suggested, but the lack of size on the perimeter was pretty noticeable when Hill was out. And when I say size, I mean a 2/3 that can move his feet -- it was a domino effect when RJ couldn't keep the man in front or from going middle, or whomever was asked to control the point of attack against legit scorers with size on the perimeter.

That's why I don't believe the Spurs will have any problem finding use for Anderson once he returns. He's not someone they'll just let ride the pine because Neal has proven to be legit (if he's healthy).

The Spurs may not need him to be a huge factor, but they will need him to be a factor -- Splitter as well.

[Dex]

I'm almost convinced the Spurs would've done better without a defensive gameplan. Just form a box around the paint and hold your arms up and the Knicks couldn't have shot much better. :lol

[rasho8]

We had a game plan? I thought it was "Fuck it, lets see if they can shoot 60% uncontested."

[Solid D]

First of all, props to the Knicks. That was a got damn impressive offensive display. Their passing was excellent and their shooting was even better. The 1999 Spurs wouldn't have had much success against the Knicks on this night.

That said, two mystifying defensive decisions seemed to doom the Spurs. First of all, why was the gameplan to go under the screen against Felton? He's a good shooter who became a great shooter once he knew the Spurs were going to dare him to shoot each and every time he was in a pick-and-roll. I realize going over the pick-and-roll would have allowed him to get more penetration ... but with the way he was murdering the Spurs from the perimeter, a change to the plan would have been nice at some point.

The only time the Spurs had moderate success against Felton was when they were switching everything. But when Duncan on the floor, that was no longer possible in the fourth quarter. At that point, going over the screen and forcing him to make plays going toward the basket would have been nice.

The other issue I had was the decision to throw hard double-teams at Stoudemire in the second half. With as hot as the shooters around Stoudemire were firing, it was suicide. I'd much rather Stoudemire take a contested 17-footer than allow an open three-pointer time after time. I know Stoudemire isn't exactly Magic Johnson when it comes to passing but he's a good enough passer to find the open man when he's doubled so far away from the hoop while facing up.

Again, the Knicks deserve a lot of the credit for putting 128 points on the board but those two coaching decisions weren't helping matters. It was almost as if Pop wanted to expose his own team's defensive shortcomings . . .

Well said. Good questions. Antonio McDyess showed excellent D on Amare. More of him and guys like him would have been better tonight.

Also, that 3-2 zone in the 4th quarter was just worthless.

[Blackjack]

Spurs lost this game in the first. They were forcing passes they didn't need to, which led to turnovers, and then their D was sub-par,which led to Chandler and others making the shots that unleashed Fuego Mode.

Once that rock got rollin', there was no way they were gonna stop it tonight. They were going to have to outscore the Knicks, and not even a 115-point night on 54% shooting was good enough to do it.

Tip the cap.

[Blackjack]

I'm almost convinced the Spurs would've done better without a defensive gameplan. Just form a box around the paint and hold your arms up and the Knicks couldn't have shot much better. :lol

That 3-2 Zone was Pop testing the theory. Worked against the Nuggs. :lol

[angelbelow]

Well said. Good questions. Antonio McDyess showed excellent D on Amare. More of him and guys like him would have been better tonight.

Also, that 3-2 zone in the 4th quarter was just worthless.

His defense was fantastic tonight. I think he might have been the only player that showed a consistent defensive intensity - albeit it was brief.

[024]

if popovich did this on purpose, he's crazier than i thought. he just showed the rest of the league how to beat the spurs.

[DesignatedT]

Felton strategy is hit or miss, I don't mind him shooting jumpers. He just had a good night (along with the rest of their team)

Bringing the double on Amare probably ended up being a bad decision since all their shooters were on fire, but it seems like we do that against pretty much every team these days.

[SouthTexasRancher]

Timvp says: "Defense Gameplan against Knicks"

LOL, good one Timvp, damn funny! :rollin:blah:rollin

[DesignatedT]

if popovich did this on purpose, he's crazier than i thought. he just showed the rest of the league how to beat the spurs.

The rest of the league isn't capable of playing that style of ball tbh.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I haven't really noticed that weakness. Other examples?

Caron Butler lit us up for 3 quarters. Melo in our first game against Denver (although admittedly he lights everyone up). Beasley from Minne.

My point is that we don't have anyone to guard big SFs who are also quick. RJ can try but usually fails. Trapping works sometimes but not always. Bonner/Dice/Grizzly are too slow. Manu/George/Neal are too small. JA is an incomplete.

We really need a long, quick, 6'8-9" guy committed to D to throw at those big, quick tweener forwards IMHO.

[GSH]

The rest of the league isn't capable of playing that style of ball tbh.

If the Spurs played the exact same game as they played tonight, they would come out on top of the Knicks 3/4 of the time. And if you stop to think about it, you know it's true.

The Knicks scored 128 tonight - second only to the 129 they put on Denver. Sorry, but SA and Denver aren't the two worst defensive teams they have faced this year. That's the nature of a D'Antoni team. When they're really on, they can outscore anyone. What happened tonight was that we didn't defend well AND the Knicks were in the zone shooting. But heavy on being in the zone shooting.

Think about it this way: Did it feel like the Spurs scored 115 tonight? Does it seem like they did anything special on the offensive end? Nope. It will be a lot easier for us to score 115 on them next time, than for them to score 128 on us again.

The Knicks played well, accept the loss. Don't try to read too much into what it says about the team or the season.



Caron Butler lit us up for 3 quarters. Melo in our first game against Denver (although admittedly he lights everyone up). Beasley from Minne.

My point is that we don't have anyone to guard big SFs who are also quick. RJ can try but usually fails. Trapping works sometimes but not always. Bonner/Dice/Grizzly are too slow. Manu/George/Neal are too small. JA is an incomplete.

We really need a long, quick, 6'8-9" guy committed to D to throw at those big, quick tweener forwards IMHO.

We need a Robert Horry, but I don't know where to get one. But even at that, it's usually not enough to beat this team. The Knicks have 3 of them, and they were all on their game. I'll take my chances against this team in a 7 game series.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Yeah they need to get that guy for the 2 games against the KNicks and 2 against Orlando.

We, there are others, but it's a decent point. With Butler gone, our biggest threats in the West (Fakers/Mavs) don't really attack from the SF. Green at OKC could be a problem but we seem to defend him well.

[EricB]

We, there are others, but it's a decent point. With Butler gone, our biggest threats in the West (Fakers/Mavs) don't really attack from the SF. Green at OKC could be a problem but we seem to defend him well.


Didn't mean to come off dickish, but, again its gone from a position of dire need, to now, eh, luxury position honestly.


Butler? I think they've guarded him well he's just a good player.

Green, Blair played him well the other night and I don't think is a problem player as much.

[SenorSpur]

For mine, Chandler presents the biggest worry - we have no-one outside of RJ who even has a hope of keeping up with him.

Like I've said a number of times, the long tweener 3s really present a problem for this roster. It is the one glaring hole. I wonder if James Anderson might have had more success?

I was actually wondering the same thing during the telecast. All this talk about where JA would fit when he returns is hogwash. The Spurs could've used him tonight - on both ends of the court.

In the meantime, this was the worst defensive effort of the season. Perhaps of the past 5 years.

[MannyIsGod]

All I know is that the decision to go under the screens made me want to puke. I probably bitched so much about that my neighbors got sick of hearing it.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, in particular one double team late in the game really pissed me off. Manu doubled Amare at the elbow in a position where it was IMPOSSIBLE to cut him off and of course he made an easy pass to the corner. Doubling in the high post is just retarded IMO. Its so easy to hit open cutters and shooters from there.

[gospursgojas]

Knicks shot lights out. IMHO it was more the Knicks catching fire than the SPurs playing shitty D.

SPurs going under the screen was to prevent Felton penetration and then the easy dump off pass to Amare, which he always kills the Spurs with.

Amare is a defensive gameplan nightmare for spurs, same as w the Suns...you guard the pass or guard the shooter on the p&r, spurs guarded the pass and Felton burned them.

[Yorae]

How bout let amare get his but clamp up on everybody. (Everybody?) EVERYBODY!!!!

[gospursgojas]

How bout let amare get his but clamp up on everybody. (Everybody?) EVERYBODY!!!!

Amare had 28

[the cat's balls]

Going over the screen and a mixture of hedging and switching would have been the smartest option to take.

While Felton has improved considerably this year, he is not the most creative player in the game of basketball.


Moving foward the Spurs should work on becoming less predictable defensively. The days of strangling the life out of teams are over. We need to move towards a variety of defensive systems and matchups to make teams question their very existence and desire to play basketball.

[gospursgojas]

Spurs actually hedge on the screen all the time. But what big man on the spurs is fast enough to hedge the ball and get back to defend a cutter like Amare?

As far as switching goes, why would you want Tp or hill guarding Amare, or Tim or other big man out guarding a perimeter player? Again the spurs big men are too slow, you might as well go under the screen as one dribble move and the perimeter player is wide open again.

When it comes to Amare and defending him in the P&R, its really pick your poison.

[Yorae]

Jefferson on Amare? He will post him up but hmm.....

[The Truth #6]

I thought Blair was playing well. I haven't looked at the stats but it seemed like the score was always close when he was in the game. Or closer, I should say.

[frodo]

poor perimeter defense... ripped by pick&rolls...

[urunobili]

To me honestly, it felt they didn't want to win the game from tip off. THEY DIDN"T EVEN TRY TO DEFEND.

[George Gervin's Afro]

This might have been the worst defenisive game I have seen under the Pop regime. I was almost sick to my stomach watching the Knicks score at will the entire game. Does anyone know how many times during the game the Knicks went three possessions without scoring? I started to pay attention in the 3rd qtr because the Spurs could never make up any ground on the 4 to 11 point lead. I was waiting for the spurs to stop them on successive possessions and it RARELY happened. I do not think at anytime in the second half they went three possessions wiht out a point. It was DISGUSTING

[elec99]

At first i thought it was pop's attempt to pace this team in light of the back-to-back. I thought cool, he's gonna try and win both games. But when the 4th came around and the d was no better, I didnt know what to think, it was kinda like they were moving in slo mo, or like their plane had just landed and didnt get a chance to warm up. Just hope they still have enough in the tank for tonight, they should considering they didnt play any D, right?