Kobe and Duncan's respective rankings on the all-time playoff leaderboards.

[midnightpulp]

Lately, Kobe fan has been making a big deal about their hero's climb up on the all-time scoring list. Every time Kobe passes another all-time great, a player he is usually inferior to, these idiots gather around and circle jerk their testicles dry. I find this behavior amusing considering it comes from a fanbase who claims to not care about regular season achievements, and who will often insult fans of opposing teams for being proud of their favorite team or player's regular season accomplishments. A common mantra of asshole Laker fan is, "Congrats on your -insert regular season accomplishment here- banner."

So that said, let's cut out the bullshit and examine the leaderboards that really matter. Playoff leaderboards.

Since Kobe fan is once again starting many a Duncan thread, which illustrates their insecurity of the fact that Duncan is the more decorated individual performer, I figured it'd be interesting to compare Kobe and Duncan's individual rankings and see who ranks better overall.

Points: Kobe 4th, Duncan 7th.
Rebounds: Duncan 5th, Kobe 40th.
Blocks: Duncan 4th, Kobe 35th.
Assists: Kobe 11th, Duncan 32th.
Steals: Kobe 7th, Duncan 56th.
True Shooting %: Duncan 94th, Kobe 115th.
Offensive rating: Kobe 102nd, Duncan 103rd.
Defensive rating: Duncan 15th, Kobe 142nd.
Win Shares: Duncan 6th, Kobe 9th.
PER: Duncan 5th, Kobe 20th.
Finals MVPs: Duncan 3 (in 4 Finals appearances), Kobe 2 (in 7 Finals appearances).

As you can see, both players win the categories they're supposed to. Kobe wins the perimeter stats, like steals and assists; and Duncan wins the big man stats, like rebounds and blocks. However, Duncan takes every advanced stat but one: offensive rating. And even then, Kobe is only one place above Duncan in that category, while Duncan is significantly ranked higher in all other advanced areas.

Now we know Kobefan will dismiss advanced stats because they have never been favorable to their boy, but as much as they will want to deny it, advanced stats are a legitimate statistical measurement and are useful when comparing players.

Finally tally: Duncan 7, Kobe 4.

[Giuseppe]

Boiled down...

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[ButtHurt Committee]

You forgot the most important stats.

Rings: Kobe 5, Duncan 4

Shall we mention head to head as well?

[TheMACHINE]

LOL wrote an essay about Kobe.

[midnightpulp]

You forgot the most important stats.

Rings: Kobe 5, Duncan 4

Shall we mention head to head as well?

Rings are a team accomplishment. Sorry, bro.

Hondo 8, Bryant 5.

And so are head-to-head records:

Nash 2, Kobe 1.

[Giuseppe]

LOL wrote an essay about Kobe.

Can ya imagine it? That goofy bastard sittin' there at the kitchen table...pencils and notebook paper all over the f'in place doin' 3 drafts before he headed for the Acer.:lmao

[TheMACHINE]

All star mvps?

[Venti Quattro]

Right another Kobe thread. Why don't you try doing something else

[midnightpulp]

Boiled down...

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

None of that happy horseshit.

We're talking about the individual here.

Duncan 3 Finals MVPs, Kobe 2.

[midnightpulp]

Right another Kobe thread. Why don't you try doing something else

It's a Duncan thread, as well.

[TheMACHINE]

Who made more money in thier career?

[midnightpulp]

Who made more money in thier career?

Who knows? Duncan never had to buy his wife a 4 million dollar ring to keep her beaner ass from divorcing him and taking half his estate, nor did he have to pay trailer trash an untold sum of hush money.

[Venti Quattro]

Who knows? Duncan never had to buy his wife a 4 million dollar ring to keep her beaner ass from divorcing him and taking half his estate, nor did he have to pay trailer trash an untold sum of hush money.

You didn't answer TheMACHINE's question.

[WeNeedLength]

Kobe raped, Duncan did not. Case closed.

[TheMACHINE]

Who knows? Duncan never had to buy his wife a 4 million dollar ring to keep her beaner ass from divorcing him and taking half his estate, nor did he have to pay trailer trash an untold sum of hush money.

LoL butthurt all of a sudden

[DeadlyDynasty]

Who knows? Duncan never had to buy his wife a 4 million dollar ring to keep her beaner ass from divorcing him and taking half his estate, nor did he have to pay trailer trash an untold sum of hush money.

tbh brah TD's probably spent a small fortune on everquest and world of warcraft over the years

[duncan228]

Career salary through this season, doesn't include endorsements.

Duncan: $183,679,917

Kobe: $196,190,615

Edit: Also doesn't include the 9 million (or 11 million, depending where you get the info) Duncan left on the table when he signed his last contract in 2007.

[midnightpulp]

You didn't answer TheMACHINE's question.

Sure I did. I have no clue who's made more money. You have to remember that property is much cheaper in Texas, not to mention they have no state income tax.

Kobe makes more in salary and endorsements, but who knows how much of it he's kept.

[ElNono]

You obviously have to spend more money when you have to make lawsuits go away...

[j.dizzle]

:lmao Mid writing essays on a saturday night

[Venti Quattro]

You obviously have to spend more money when you have to make lawsuits go away...

But it doesn't answer the question "who's earned/who's earning more money"

Theoretically speaking, can't Duncan pay for lawsuits (grey spurfans this is THEORETICAL) even if Kobe makes more money?

[WeNeedLength]

:lmao Mid writing essays on a saturday night

Us posting on Spurstalk on a saturday night :lol

So who's really laughing at who??

[midnightpulp]

But it doesn't answer the question "who's earned/who's earning more money"

Theoretically speaking, can't Duncan pay for lawsuits (grey spurfans this is THEORETICAL) even if Kobe makes more money?

We have no idea who has more money.

Higher salary =/= more money.

And honestly, I couldn't give a shit who has more money. It's just funny that Machine's little troll attempt backfired because his dumb ass can't comprehend externalities.

[Killakobe81]

LOL there is a thread for this ... obsessed ...

[midnightpulp]

LOL there is a thread for this ... obsessed ...

Where's the Duncan thread around here? I don't see one.

This thread has as much to do with Duncan as it does Kobe.

[j.dizzle]

Us posting on Spurstalk on a saturday night :lol

So who's really laughing at who??

I just got out of the shower & killing time before I get ready to go out. Im in LA, its still early.

[Killakobe81]

Where's the Duncan thread around here? I don't see one.

This thread has as much to do with Duncan as it does Kobe.

Penis envy look it up ...

[ElNono]

But it doesn't answer the question "who's earned/who's earning more money"

I wasn't answering any questions. It's just something that obviously has to be considered when trying to answer the question though.


Theoretically speaking, can't Duncan pay for lawsuits (grey spurfans this is THEORETICAL) even if Kobe makes more money?

Duncan could. I don't quite understand what that has to do when trying to determine who made more money though.

We certainly know for a fact that Kobe snitched AND paid for a lawsuit to go away. These are things we know.

[midnightpulp]

I just got out of the shower & killing time before I get ready to go out. Im in East LA, its still early.

Fixed.

So what Ranchero clubs are you gonna hit up?

[ButtHurt Committee]

Career salary through this season, doesn't include endorsements.

Duncan: $183,679,917

Kobe: $196,190,615

Edit: Also doesn't include the 9 million (or 11 million, depending where you get the info) Duncan left on the table when he signed his last contract in 2007.

So he's stupid too. It's not like it made the team better. He could have used that 9-11 mil to get his wife a face lift.

[ElNono]

:blah

Why not login with your regular account? You already welched by posting in the Spurs forum after the loss to Boston... :lol

[j.dizzle]

Fixed.

So what Ranchero clubs are you gonna hit up?

:lmao Encino & I'm not mexican son. What city are you in?

[midnightpulp]

So he's stupid too. It's not like it made the team better. He could have used that 9-11 mil to get his wife a face lift.

2000 First Round. Duncan's injured and doesn't play, Spurs don't advance.

2005, 06, 07, Kobe's totally healthy (aside from a few games in '05). Team misses playoffs, gets raped by Nash twice.

Who doesn't make their team better again?

[midnightpulp]

:lmao Encino & I'm not mexican son. What city are you in?

One of the few Lakers fans.

North Hollyweird.

[Killakobe81]

2000 First Round. Duncan's injured and doesn't play, Spurs don't advance.

2005, 06, 07, Kobe's totally healthy (aside from a few games in '05). Team misses playoffs, gets raped by Nash twice.

Who doesn't make their team better again?

Is this latest flurry of posts a dirrect response to kobe moving up the scoring ladder? We get it Duncan is better than kobe in your book ...good for you.
hollinger and Bill simmons may even agree with you ...congrats :toast

[ButtHurt Committee]

2000 First Round. Duncan's injured and doesn't play, Spurs don't advance.

2005, 06, 07, Kobe's totally healthy (aside from a few games in '05). Team misses playoffs, gets raped by Nash twice.

Who doesn't make their team better again?

Duncan got skunked by Nash. Being tied for 8th seed is just like missing the playoffs, really.

[baseline bum]

Who knows? Duncan never had to buy his wife a 4 million dollar ring to keep her beaner ass from divorcing him and taking half his estate, nor did he have to pay trailer trash an untold sum of hush money.

:rollin

[midnightpulp]

Duncan got skunked by Nash. Being tied for 8th seed is just like missing the playoffs, really.

Since when were the Spurs the 8th seed, dumbass?

[Killakobe81]

LOL Kobe got yall talking ...

"24/7, 365 Kobe stays on your minds"

The real line is supposed to be "pussy" but apparently pulp would rather hate on kobe

[midnightpulp]

LOL Kobe got yall talking ...

"24/7, 365 Kobe stays on your minds"

The real line is supposed to be "pussy" but apparently pulp would rather hate on kobe

How is objectively comparing Duncan and Kobe's playoff stats "hating?"

I didn't utter one hateful remark toward Kobe in this thread. Everything I've said was a statement of fact. Lakers fans seriously need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills.

[Killakobe81]

How is objectively comparing Duncan and Kobe's playoff stats "hating?"

I didn't utter one hateful remark toward Kobe in this thread. Everything I've said was a statement of fact. Lakers fans seriously need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills.

come on you dont need to be a mind reader to discern your intent. and this thread you have posted about Kobe in at least 3 in the last hour ...get over it.

[j.dizzle]

H1Yt0xJKDY8

[midnightpulp]

come on you dont need to be a mind reader to discern your intent. and this thread you have posted about Kobe in at least 3 in the last hour ...get over it.

I see. Because Kobe comes out on the losing end of a statistical comparison, "I'm hating."

No hate, honestly. Just trying to bring things back into perspective for you Lakers fans who are all about the "playoffs" and care fuck all about the regular season.

[ButtHurt Committee]

Since when were the Spurs the 8th seed, dumbass?

My, your memory short. You were tied for 8th place last year, jackass. Kobe took a team full of scrubs to a 7th game against Nash's all-stars, while Duncan couldn't even get a fucking win, with a healthy Manu and cheating Parker.

http://www.nba.com/standings/2009/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Std_Cnf.html

[Killakobe81]

I see. Because Kobe comes out on the losing end of a statistical comparison, "I'm hating."

No hate, honestly. Just trying to bring things back into perspective for you Lakers fans who are all about the "playoffs" and care fuck all about the regular season.

Im not sayig your posts were hateful, in fact my guess your true intent was trolling laker fans ...but geez it does come off a little obsessed. Why dont you and luva or BR just debate this one on one?

[midnightpulp]

My, your memory short. You were tied for 8th place last year, jackass. Kobe took a team full of scrubs to a 7th game against Nash's all-stars, while Duncan couldn't even get a fucking win, with a healthy Manu and cheating Parker.

http://www.nba.com/standings/2009/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Std_Cnf.html

7th seed =/= 8th seed. Sorry, bro.

And no, Kobe did not take a team full of scrubs to a 7th game against all-stars. He blew a 3-1 lead to a team missing their second best player :lol

[midnightpulp]

Im not sayig your posts were hateful, in fact my guess your true intent was trolling laker fans ...but geez it does come off a little obsessed. Why dont you and luva or BR just debate this one on one?

There's no debate. Duncan comes out ahead every time, reducing Kobe fan to the "rings argument."

That's all they (you) have. That, and regular season scoring records.

[Killakobe81]

There's no debate. Duncan comes out ahead every time, reducing Kobe fan to the "rings argument."

That's all they (you) have. That, and regular season scoring records.

LOL Ok whatever floats your boat ... some of the spur fans (you) really have an issue with Kobe's place in history comapred to Tim's. Even if most logical people argue that MJ is better ...kobe is in the debate and duncan is not and it KILLS yall.
That is really why many of you hate on Kobe or Mark Jackson or anyone that points out the obvious that kobe is the best player since MJ... and it is hilarious.
Duncan is a great player just not as great as Kobe ...you can pull up all the advanced stats that you want ... it doesnt change history.

[Killakobe81]

Besides i would argue Duncan is the 2nd best player A.J. (after jordan) just a half step ahead of Shaq. That is not bad ...

[Dex]

Duncan is a great player just not as great as Kobe ...you can pull up all the advanced stats that you want ... it doesnt change history.


Besides i would argue Duncan is the 2nd best player A.J. (after jordan) just a half step ahead of Shaq. That is not bad ...

Nice flop flop. Way to go. :tu

[TDMVPDPOY]

i assume kobe found out where duncan got his success from, so he couldnt marry one so he had to go colorado....

[midnightpulp]

LOL Ok whatever floats your boat ... some of the spur fans (you) really have an issue with Kobe's place in history comapred to Tim's. Even if most logical people argue that MJ is better ...kobe is in the debate and duncan is not and it KILLS yall.
That is really why many of you hate on Kobe or Mark Jackson or anyone that points out the obvious that kobe is the best player since MJ... and it is hilarious.
Duncan is a great player just not as great as Kobe ...you can pull up all the advanced stats that you want ... it doesnt change history.

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the hell can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this shit out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot spiked to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the hell can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this shit out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot spiked to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

Doth protests too fiercely ...
i also agree Magic is greater than kobe, said it many times on here.
notice i said Kobe was the best since MJ ...Magic played BEFORE MJ genius ...

[Killakobe81]

Kobe's not in the MJ debate. That's a media fabrication for the purpose of ratings that only dumbass homers fall for. Kobe's not even the greatest Laker, so how the hell can he logically be compared to Jordan? He can't. The media throws this shit out there and all the Laker fans and haters alike tune in en masse, guaranteeing good ratings.

It doesn't kill me at all. I rely on reality for facts, not media hyperbole.

And the facts are:

Duncan: Better overall playoff stats. More Finals MVPs. 2 top 15 all-time Finals series performances. Guess who made the worst list?

"With the good sometimes comes the bad. Here are the 10 worst Finals performances since the merger, in chronological order:

Henry Bibby, Philadelphia, 1977
Sixers vs. Blazers -- Bibby's PER 7.4
Bibby was awful in both Finals appearances -- he had a 5.6 PER in 1980 -- but this one takes the cake because he played 38 minutes a game and still couldn't do anything right. For the series, the Sixers point guard shot 31.3 percent and averaged just 4.2 assists per game.

John Johnson, Seattle 1978
Sonics vs. Bullets -- Johnson's PER 7.9
Dennis Johnson's 0-for-14 Game 7 is more famous, but for the series he wasn't even the worst Johnson on the Sonics. John Johnson shot 38.2 percent in the seven games and only took three free throws all series -- on 68 shots -- for a miserable 38.9 true shooting percentage.

Michael Cooper, L.A. Lakers 1988
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Cooper's PER 1.3
The Lakers repeated, but let's just say Coop wasn't a big reason. He shot 9-for-44 for the series, including 3-of-20 on 3s, and in more than 25 minutes a game, he put up 3.7 points, 1.6 boards and 2.1 assists. His only positive contribution was getting Isiah Thomas to sprain an ankle after Zeke landed on Cooper's foot in Game 6.

Mark Aguirre, Detroit, 1989
Pistons vs. Lakers -- Aguirre's PER 5.8
As with Bibby, Aguirre has two contenders for this list -- he came back with a 9.3 PER in the 1990 Finals against Portland. His effort against L.A. takes the prize because even in going up against the likes of Tony Campbell and Jeff Lamp, he still shot 12-for-33 for the series, with only eight foul shots.

Kevin Johnson, Phoenix, 1993
Suns vs. Bulls -- Johnson's PER 9.8
Although he did a halfway-decent job guarding Michael Jordan, KJ's offensive game completely tanked. He dipped to 42.3 percent shooting, committed 4.23 turnovers a game and twice came up short in the clutch. Johnson dropped an inbound pass at the end of Game 4 to seal Chicago's win, and then he had his last-second shot spiked to close out Game 6.

Nick Anderson, Orlando, 1995
Magic vs. Rockets -- Anderson's PER 11.4
Anderson shot 36.0 percent in the series and 30 percent from the line, including his infamous four straight misses in Game 1 that allowed Houston to steal the opener and set the stage for a Rockets sweep.

Larry Johnson, New York, 1999
Knicks vs. Spurs -- Johnson's PER 3.9
"Grandmama" played like an old lady in this one, shooting 14-for-49 for the series and finishing with more turnovers than assists. Included in his "effort" was a 2-for-18 performance from 3-point range.

Stephen Jackson, San Antonio, 2003
Spurs vs. Nets -- Jackson's PER 6.7
Jackson was a huge part of the Spurs' run to the Finals, but then he was a train wreck once they got there. It wasn't just that he shot 37.8 percent, or that he earned only 12 free-throw attempts from his 61 shots. Jackson made 26 turnovers in the six games -- an amazing total for a player whose main job was to spot up as a shooter -- and finished with more miscues than baskets (23).

Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers, 2004
Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games.

LeBron James, Cleveland, 2007
Cavs vs. Spurs -- James' PER 14.3
The King's first Finals visit wasn't a memorable one. Bruce Bowen hounded him into 35.6 percent shooting, and James committed 5.8 turnovers per game as San Antonio swept the Cavs in four. It didn't help that he couldn't get a whistle as he tried to draw a foul on a last-second 3-point try at the end of Game 3."

You might think it's "hating," but it's not. There's just no evidence to suggest that Kobe is greater player than Duncan. Not any. Sorry.

Nope you are NOt hating just obsessed ...

[midnightpulp]

Doth protests too fiercely ...
i also agree Magic is greater than kobe, said it many times on here.
notice i said Kobe was the best since MJ ...Magic played BEFORE MJ genius ...

No. You said Kobe was "in the MJ debate." That's what I was responding to. He's not in the debate. Not even close.

BTW, here' the top statistically rated Finals series performances since the merger:

Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 34.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8
Tim Duncan SA 2003 24.2 17.0 5.3 49.5 32.0
Michael Jordan Chi 1991 31.2 6.6 11.4 55.8 31.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 36.3 12.3 3.8 59.5 31.4
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 38.0 16.7 2.3 61.1 31.1
Michael Jordan Chi 1998 33.5 4.0 2.3 42.7 30.8
Tim Duncan SA 1999 27.4 14.0 2.4 53.7 30.7
Michael Jordan Chi 1997 32.3 7.0 6.0 45.6 29.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 33.0 15.8 4.8 57.3 29.4
Michael Jordan Chi 1992 35.8 4.8 6.5 52.6 29.2


Kobe?

[Killakobe81]

No. You said Kobe was "in the MJ debate." That's what I was responding to. He's not in the debate. Not even close.

BTW, here' the top statistically rated Finals series performances since the merger:

Dwyane Wade Mia 2006 34.7 7.8 3.8 46.8 33.8
Tim Duncan SA 2003 24.2 17.0 5.3 49.5 32.0
Michael Jordan Chi 1991 31.2 6.6 11.4 55.8 31.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2002 36.3 12.3 3.8 59.5 31.4
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2000 38.0 16.7 2.3 61.1 31.1
Michael Jordan Chi 1998 33.5 4.0 2.3 42.7 30.8
Tim Duncan SA 1999 27.4 14.0 2.4 53.7 30.7
Michael Jordan Chi 1997 32.3 7.0 6.0 45.6 29.5
Shaquille O'Neal LAL 2001 33.0 15.8 4.8 57.3 29.4
Michael Jordan Chi 1992 35.8 4.8 6.5 52.6 29.2


Kobe?

He is in the debate ...whether you like it or not. You keep throwing stats at the argument just as easy as someone could throw rings. Im glad you are having fun with copy and paste but that does nothing for me. Manning has some great stats too but I still would take Brady everytime ...why? rings.

[Killakobe81]

LOL so Dwade is better than MJ?

[midnightpulp]

He is in the debate ...whether you like it or not. You keep throwing stats at the argument just as easy as someone could throw rings. Im glad you are having fun with copy and paste but that does nothing for me. Manning has some great stats too but I still would take Brady everytime ...why? rings.

Are you too dense to understand how rings are a team accomplishment? How much influence can one guy really have when 8-11 other players (or in the case of football, 30+ other players) are factored into the equation?

When comparing individual players, compare what they did individually. Not within the team.

Oh, do me a favor and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

[ezau]

midnight destroying the Laker fans that he's supposed to destroy. Nothing to see here TBH.

And LOL at the Machine pulling that "who makes more money" card. :lol:lol
Fucking desperate:lol:lol

[midnightpulp]

LOL so Dwade is better than MJ?

Per the usual with you. Missing the point. Jordan placing 4 times on that list is obviously better than Wade's single placement, no matter where he ranked. I showed you the list to demonstrate Kobe's inability (because he's not a great Finals performer) to place on that list.

The best player since MJ and one who is "in the debate" should have no problem making that list. After all, the two other players in the that conversation, Shaq and Duncan, both placed more than once.

Why not Kobe?

[ezau]

Duncan got skunked by Nash. Being tied for 8th seed is just like missing the playoffs, really.

LOL, how many times did the Spurs raped the Suns in the playoffs? We beat those fuckers in 03, 05 and 07 on our way to our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th championships.:lobt2:

[xellos88330]

Lakers fans being Lakers fans.

Can't blame them for wanting to talk up their best, but it is pretty hypocritical when they get upset and laugh at people talking up their own. It gets even more confusing when the stat comparisons are thrown out the window when the facts being brought up are all numerical. Facts are facts.

Kobe has had better teams, therefore won more rings. It is a FACT based on a numerical value. One that I will not deny. After all, the NUMBERS, say so. Of course, Duncan has the lions share of the individual playoff statistics which once again are FACTS based on numerical value. After all, the NUMBERS say so as well.

If you are using numbers to state a fact, shouldn't you acknowledge the numbers from the other side too? It isn't a difficult concept really. No Spurs fan can deny that Duncan has fewer rings than Kobe. Therefore, no Laker fan can deny that Duncan is the better individual playoff performer.

See... simple! :toast





Edit: Another thing... If you aren't going to let numbers change your mind, just say so. After all, fan is short for Fanatic.

[midnightpulp]

LOL, how many times did the Spurs raped the Suns in the playoffs? We beat those fuckers in 03, 05 and 07 on our way to our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th championships.:lobt2:

Kobe also blew a 3-1 lead to Nash's Suns, who were missing Amare.

One of the best series I've seen. Nash proving he was the MVP that year over the player Lakers fans thought deserved it.

And no bullshit excuses about "supporting cast." Kobe went 7-21 in Game 1, a game the Lakers lost by 5. Smush Parker went 6-13 :lol

Who the fuck gets outplayed by Smush Parker in a key playoff game?

[Killakobe81]

Per the usual with you. Missing the point. Jordan placing 4 times on that list is obviously better than Wade's single placement, no matter where he ranked. I showed you the list to demonstrate Kobe's inability (because he's not a great Finals performer) to place on that list.

The best player since MJ and one who is "in the debate" should have no problem making that list. After all, the two other players in the that conversation, Shaq and Duncan, both placed more than once.

Why not Kobe?

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a title is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win titles ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

[jjktkk]

pulp electronically bitchslapping Laker fans. Nice. :toast

[xellos88330]

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a title is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win titles ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

You do seem like a "sane" Laker fan.

I have a question for you. Do you feel that the Finals MVP is a measure for being the best player on the biggest stage of competitive basketball in the NBA?

[024]

kobe is the luckiest player in the world. he could have easily had an iverson, vince carter, tmac (before injuries), or arenas type career. the typical volume/selfish scorer usually ends in failure. instead, since kobe plays for stern's beloved lakers, he gets multiple bailouts in the form of shaq and gasol.

[midnightpulp]

I am not missing the point. Making one. Stats can be always be manipulated by the data gatherer to shape the argument to their viewpoint. You chose Finals numbers to shape yours others use the scoring list to shape theirs ...

Yes winning a title is a team accomplishement but all the greatest win titles ...so that is how you seperate the men from the boys. duncan and kobe are BOTH great players ...so how else you gonna determine who is greater career numbers, advced stats? You can but i choose rings ...it's my religon. For the record i think it's close but kobe is better just my opinion im not talking like it's fact ...most of the media does but I do not.

But you can see how the ring argument can be faulty. John Havlicek is not better than Jerry West because he has 8 rings. And Hondo was a first option type player with comparable stats to West. The difference was that West never had the supporting casts like Havlicek.

And any Spurfan who uses the rings argument in a Malone/Duncan comparison commits the same fault. Duncan is not a better player than Malone because he has 4 rings, it's because he improved during the playoffs, while keeping his FG steady at 50%, while Karl dropped from 52% during the regular season to 46% during the playoffs. Huge dropoff. Not to mention Duncan is the better defender, rebounder, and playmaker.

[Killakobe81]

You do seem like a "sane" Laker fan.

I have a question for you. Do you feel that the Finals MVP is a measure for being the best player on the biggest stage of competitive basketball in the NBA?

I would say yes you are right it is a measure (one of them)...but we have seen examples of supporting players like Tony Parker getting Finals MVP's over the real star (duncan) so I would not say it's perfect.

I also freely admit Kobe has had some rough Finals even the past two years he has had scintilating and also some disappointing moments. that is a fair and valid criticism. And I would concede duncan has been the more conistent finals performer no doubt about it ... that is why I say it's a close argument. If not for that I would argue the gap is wider ...

[xellos88330]

I would say yes you are right it is a measure (one of them)...but we have seen examples of supporting players like Tony Parker getting Finals MVP's over the real star (duncan) so I would not say it's perfect.

I also freely admit Kobe has had some rough Finals even the past two years he has had scintilating and also some disappointing moments. that is a fair and valid criticism. And I would concede duncan has been the more conistent finals performer no doubt about it ... that is why I say it's a close argument. If not for that I would argue the gap is wider ...

So what would your thoughts be if you were a Spurs fan?

[Killakobe81]

So what would your thoughts be if you were a Spurs fan?

Like I said many times Ducan was ahead of kobe before the past 3 years in my opinion.

[TheMACHINE]

midnight destroying the Laker fans that he's supposed to destroy. Nothing to see here TBH.

And LOL at the Machine pulling that "who makes more money" card. :lol:lol
Fucking desperate:lol:lol

So who makes more money?

[cherylsteele]

My, your memory short. You were tied for 8th place last year, jackass. Kobe took a team full of scrubs to a 7th game against Nash's all-stars, while Duncan couldn't even get a fucking win, with a healthy Manu and cheating Parker.

http://www.nba.com/standings/2009/team_record_comparison/conferenceNew_Std_Cnf.html
There was a 3-way tie for 6,7,8 (50-32) spots and the Spurs were 7th due to tie breakers, that is how playoff postions are officially detrmined.

Actually The Spurs were tied for 6th place if we were to use your fractured logic.

[Medvedenko]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. Hell, you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.

[TDfan2007]

You forgot the most important stats.

Rings: Kobe 5, Duncan 4

Shall we mention head to head as well?

Where was this in the malone > duncan thread?

[024]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. Hell, you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.
ask any gm and coach, if they had to pick between a 21 year old tim duncan or kobe to start a franchise, 29/30 franchises will pick tim duncan, with probably the grizzlies rolling the die on kobe. LOL trading love for mayo. that still cracks me up in addition to the gasol trade.

[midnightpulp]

Midnight, getting his obsession on as usual.

Dude, I know it's close buddy, too close to call. 5 rings versus 4....

Still, in Duncan's and Kobe's tenure so far, Kobe's teams have been to the finals 7 times, hence winning the Western Confererance 7 times. Duncan won 4 times.....end of thread.

Kobe's actually a more talented and better individual player than TD. Hell, you ask any pundit, expert, GM and coach an they'll tell you the same damn thing.

Keep acting like Shaq wasn't the greater half of that equation for the first 4 trips to the Finals.

Quote your hero: "I'm tired of being a sidekick." But since Kobe fan says he was the leader, he must be. Never mind the fact Kobe himself knew he wasn't the leader of those teams.

Kobe as "the man": 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs.
Duncan as "the man": 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs.

And Kobe's the better individual player if the game is 1 on 1, but last I checked, the NBA is 5 on 5 basketball. The "skills" argument, which is what you're alluding to, is weak. Kevin Garnett has more "skills" than Shaq, but he is not the better team basketball player.

And as for the last point, when Duncan was winning his titles, all these pundits, experts, and GMs were declaring him the best player in the league, the best PF of all time, etc, etc. Kobe's en vogue at the moment because he's winning titles, and if any GM would rather build around an inefficient SG than a low-post big, I would have to question his basketball expertise.


BTW, find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

[Killakobe81]

ask any gm and coach, if they had to pick between a 21 year old tim duncan or kobe to start a franchise, 29/30 franchises will pick tim duncan, with probably the grizzlies rolling the die on kobe. LOL trading love for mayo. that still cracks me up in addition to the gasol trade.

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...

[midnightpulp]

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...

Not me. I take Hakeem over MJ, even with hindsight bias. You have a better chance of building a championship contender around Hakeem than you do with MJ. Jordan found the perfect storm of complementary talents on those Bulls teams, but I have my doubts that you replicate that success elsewhere. With Hakeem, all you need are some shooters, a couple of decent slashers, and a committed defensive ideology, and you're an instant contender.

Also, one thing Jordan never did was beat a prime Showtime Lakers. Hakeem did it. And maybe if Ralph Sampson had a pair of good knees, Hakeem has a couple more titles.

[024]

You maybe right but that changes nothing. Every Gm would of taken hakeem over MJ too ... (and would of been right) but now that both careers are over everyone would take MJ even rox fans ...Same here all those GM's take kobe. more rings, more endorsement dollars and more worldwide appeal ...even with the rape allegations ...
that's why i said to start a franchise, as in this will be the team's franchise player for the next 10 years. 29/30 franchises will choose tim duncan, knowing what they know now, which includes duncan's repeat mvp performances, offensive efficiency, willingness to pass, willingness to accomodate, defensive nature, clutchness in playoffs, lack of drama, perpetual dominance of other players, and all around superiority.

[Medvedenko]

Keep acting like Shaq wasn't the greater half of that equation for the first 4 trips to the Finals.

Quote your hero: "I'm tired of being a sidekick." But since Kobe fan says he was the leader, he must be. Never mind the fact Kobe himself knew he wasn't the leader of those teams.

Kobe as "the man": 2 rings, 2 Finals MVPs.
Duncan as "the man": 4 rings, 3 Finals MVPs.

And Kobe's the better individual player if the game is 1 on 1, but last I checked, the NBA is 5 on 5 basketball. The "skills" argument, which is what you're alluding to, is weak. Kevin Garnett has more "skills" than Shaq, but he is not the better team basketball player.

And as for the last point, when Duncan was winning his titles, all these pundits, experts, and GMs were declaring him the best player in the league, the best PF of all time, etc, etc. Kobe's en vogue at the moment because he's winning titles, and if any GM would rather build around an inefficient SG than a low-post big, I would have to question his basketball expertise.


BTW, find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

Hey hollinger jr with your crazy analysis and stats....I know it was Shaq the main reason the Lakers got past your spurs....sureeeeee. This whole thread is TD vs Kobe....

Remember partner, all of the talk vs who's the best MJ or Kobe year after year has nothing to do with your boy. He's not in the discussion and never will be. It's too late for TD, no worries. He's had a solid career and is a great role player now.

[Killakobe81]

that's why i said to start a franchise, as in this will be the team's franchise player for the next 10 years. 29/30 franchises will choose tim duncan, knowing what they know now, which includes duncan's repeat mvp performances, offensive efficiency, willingness to pass, willingness to accomodate, defensive nature, clutchness in playoffs, lack of drama, perpetual dominance of other players, and all around superiority.

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.

[midnightpulp]

...I know it was Shaq the main reason the Lakers got past your spurs.....

Thanks for finally admitting it. Didn't think your Kobe fanboy ass had it in you.

[midnightpulp]

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.

I take Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem over Kobe all day and every day.

[Medvedenko]

Thanks for finally admitting it. Didn't think your Kobe fanboy ass had it in you.

Wow, quote manipulation smack. I knew you had it in you.

[Medvedenko]

I take Duncan, Hakeem, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem over Kobe all day and every day.

Hopefully not in the clutch....

[ezau]

So who makes more money?

Manny Pacquiao>>>>Kobe:toast:toast

[ezau]

Kobe also blew a 3-1 lead to Nash's Suns, who were missing Amare.

One of the best series I've seen. Nash proving he was the MVP that year over the player Lakers fans thought deserved it.

And no bullshit excuses about "supporting cast." Kobe went 7-21 in Game 1, a game the Lakers lost by 5. Smush Parker went 6-13 :lol

Who the fuck gets outplayed by Smush Parker in a key playoff game?

Midnightpulp

[midnightpulp]

Wow, quote manipulation smack. I knew you had it in you.

Just quoting the facts. Everything else was typical Medvedenko Kobe's cock in your mouth bullshit, so it wasn't worth quoting.

Oh, and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

[ezau]

Medvenko is legendary here. He's the only poster who genuinely believes that Kobe>>Jordan. LMAO

[midnightpulp]

Hopefully not in the clutch....

There too. Maybe not Shaq and Wilt. But those other players surely shoot better than 25% on game winners, like Kobe.

"...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups

Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below."

The clutchiest, clutchest, clutch player to ever shoot a clutch shot in the clutch.

Jesus fuckin' Christ. Is there anything that Kobe isn't overrated at?

[Medvedenko]

Just quoting the facts. Everything else was typical Medvedenko Kobe's cock in your mouth bullshit, so it wasn't worth quoting.

Oh, and find Kobe on this list:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-1

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

[Gutter92]

Has Duncan ever guaranteed a finals victory then gone on to chuck his team out of it?

Kobe has.

[TinTin]

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

So which one would you take?

A back to back with no dominating finals performance

or

Dominating performances on intervals

[Medvedenko]

There too. Maybe not Shaq and Wilt. But those other players surely shoot better than 25% on game winners, like Kobe.

"...and then we get to Kobe Bryant. Kobe fans don't like to hear it, but while their man is #4 in the league in total game winners hit, he holds the top spot in a less glamorous category: most game winning opportunity missed shots!

42 - Kobe
35 - Vince Carter
33 - Joe Johnson, LeBron
32 - Crawford
31 - Billups

Now we're not Kobe haters by any means and I will readily give him his due as one of the best NBA players (note however, I didn't say the best) but he certainly has an overblown reputation when it comes to the clutch shot: people remember the ones he hits, but not the ones he misses, and heck you think a 56 FGA to 1 assist ratio might be part of the problem? He does have a better record in the playoffs though, which we'll get to down below."

The clutchiest, clutchest, clutch player to ever shoot a clutch shot in the clutch.

Jesus fuckin' Christ. Is there anything that Kobe isn't overrated at?

Hollinger, look the math is nice. Once again, I'm sure you can google the GM's and coaches choices for their most clutch player....Kobe. We can argue all night and getting trolled in your own thread is pretty funny. Unfortunately TD's relevance is waining and had been for a while. A really good role player now.

[midnightpulp]

That's a superb list, oh how many times did TD go back to back after a dominating finals performance. Serioulsy bro, you parroting Hollinger is comical enough.

back-to-back championships are team accomplishments. We're talking about individuals here. Try to keep up.

Why isn't Kobe on that list? I thought he was like the best ever and all that. Surely the best ever can appear on a list that ranks the 50 best Finals performances.

To be fair, that list was made in 2008. His Orlando series probably sneaks in (no way in hell does this last performance that concluded with a 6-24 chokejob make it). So that's 1 placement out of 7. Not bad :tu

Duncan's on there 4 times, FWIW.

[024]

I would normally take the big over the smaller player but you dont Pas on Mj or Kobe.

BTW Blazers did it again with Oden over Durant dumb move.
lol, blazers and mj argument is irrelevant as this is knowing what we all know now. if a 21 year old kobe and duncan were available tomorrow, you really think a franchise, even the lakers, will choose kobe over duncan? knowing the past history of the two, you really believe a franchise would rather have kobe over duncan for 10 years? that team would have to constantly look for an all star big that they can either steal or sign through the FA, deal with kobe's refusal to pass, address kobe's overshooting in the playoffs, all while sweating that kobe might bad mouth another teammate or demand publicly for a trade. or they can pick tim duncan, add a few talented role players (no all star necessary like in 2003) and let him lead the franchise to championships. kobe may have helped shaq revive a struggling championship franchise but tim duncan, like jordan, built his own and instilled his own values into it.

[Medvedenko]

So which one would you take?

A back to back with no dominating finals performance

or

Dominating performances on intervals

Hmmm, I guess winning once in a while is ok.

[Medvedenko]

back-to-back championships are team accomplishments. We're talking about individuals here. Try to keep up.

Why isn't Kobe on that list? I thought he was like the best ever and all that. Surely the best ever can appear on a list that ranks the 50 best Finals performances.

To be fair, that list was made in 2008. His Orlando series probably sneaks in (no way in hell does this last performance that concluded with a 6-24 chokejob make it). So that's 1 placement out of 7. Not bad :tu

Duncan's on there 4 times, FWIW.

What about the other 3 times that Kobe's eclipsed and actually made it to the finals over TD. Get on google and get those dominating stats from TD. How about getting swept last year, while Kobe's team won it.

[TinTin]

Hmmm, I guess winning once in a while is ok.

You define 4 times while being the man of your team as "once in a while" ?

In those terms kobe hasn't won shit before 2009

[midnightpulp]

Hollinger, look the math is nice. Once again, I'm sure you can google the GM's and coaches choices for their most clutch player....Kobe. We can argue all night and getting trolled in your own thread is pretty funny. Unfortunately TD's relevance is waining and had been for a while. A really good role player now.

Doesn't take a stat geek to recognize that Kobe shoots 25% on game winners.

And GMs and coaches are prone to hyperbole just like anyone else. Their opinions are not fact.

What is fact (supported by numbers) is that Kobe is a relatively ordinary performer in the clutch, and not this messiah you morons make him to be.

And yeah, I'm getting trolled in my own thread by regulating your fanboy ass.

Every one knows you have Kobe's cock jammed so far up your ass that you can see his nuts when you open your mouth, so what you're doing in this thread is not trolling, it's your legitimate, fucktarded opinion.

Oh, and lol highlights.

[Medvedenko]

lol, blazers and mj argument is irrelevant as this is knowing what we all know now. if a 21 year old kobe and duncan were available tomorrow, you really think a franchise, even the lakers, will choose kobe over duncan? knowing the past history of the two, you really believe a franchise would rather have kobe over duncan for 10 years? that team would have to constantly look for an all star big that they can either steal or sign through the FA, deal with kobe's refusal to pass, address kobe's overshooting in the playoffs, all while sweating that kobe might bad mouth another teammate or demand publicly for a trade. or they can pick tim duncan, add a few talented role players (no all star necessary like in 2003) and let him lead the franchise to championships. kobe may have helped shaq revive a struggling championship franchise but tim duncan, like jordan, built his own and instilled his own values into it.

If I was running a team (Owner) I would choose the player that would bring the largest ROI and that's Kobe and MJ. Sales, tickets sold, jerseys, merchandise, shoes and championships etc...not shaving cream.

[Medvedenko]

Doesn't take a stat geek to recognize that Kobe shoots 25% on game winners.

And GMs and coaches are prone to hyperbole just like anyone else. Their opinions are not fact.

What is fact (supported by numbers) is that Kobe is a relatively ordinary performer in the clutch, and not this messiah you morons make him to be.

And yeah, I'm getting trolled in my own thread by regulating your fanboy ass.

Every one knows you have Kobe's cock jammed so far up your ass that you can see his nuts when you open your mouth, so what you're doing in this thread is not trolling, it's your legitimate, fucktarded opinion.

Oh, and lol highlights.

Yup, didn't take too long for you to resort to gay smack. Oh, and I delayed my highlight appointment to have a nice discussion regarding a role player vs Kobe.

[midnightpulp]

What about the other 3 times that Kobe's eclipsed and actually made it to the finals over TD. Get on google and get those dominating stats from TD. How about getting swept last year, while Kobe's team won it.

All that means is the Lakers beat the Spurs in the playoffs. And the Suns beat the Spurs last year. Your fucktarded logic would give credence to the idea that Nash is a better player than Kobe because he holds a 2-1 lead over him in playoff matchups.

Teams beating teams have nothing to do with comparing individual players. Again, try to keep up.

[midnightpulp]

If I was running a team (Owner) I would choose the player that would bring the largest ROI and that's Kobe and MJ. Sales, tickets sold, jerseys, merchandise, shoes and championships etc...not shaving cream.

Then how come the Spurs are leading the Lakers in attendance this year :lmao

[midnightpulp]

All that means is the Lakers beat the Spurs in the playoffs. And the Suns beat the Spurs last year. Your fucktarded logic would give credence to the idea that Nash is a better player than Kobe because he holds a 2-1 lead over him in playoff matchups.

Teams beating teams have nothing to do with comparing individual players. Again, try to keep up.

:king

[024]

If I was running a team (Owner) I would choose the player that would bring the largest ROI and that's Kobe and MJ. Sales, tickets sold, jerseys, merchandise, shoes and championships etc...not shaving cream.
:rollin

[midnightpulp]

Yup, didn't take too long for you to resort to gay smack. Oh, and I delayed my highlight appointment to have a nice discussion regarding a role player vs Kobe.

And yet a role player is a better playoff performer than Kobe.:lol

What does that say about Kobe?

He's more overrated than I initially thought.

[Medvedenko]

All that means is the Lakers beat the Spurs in the playoffs. And the Suns beat the Spurs last year. Your fucktarded logic would give credence to the idea that Nash is a better player than Kobe because he holds a 2-1 lead over him in playoff matchups.

Teams beating teams have nothing to do with comparing individual players. Again, try to keep up.

LOL, you just fucked up your entire thread with this statement. I need to keep up eh....

[Medvedenko]

And yet a role player is a better playoff performer than Kobe.:lol

What does that say about Kobe?

He's more overrated than I initially thought.

How did that role player do in the playoffs the last 3 years when the Lakers made it to the finals.

[Medvedenko]

Then how come the Spurs are leading the Lakers in attendance this year :lmao

Are you dense....look at the Laker road games the past decade and you see Kobe jerseys and sold out arenas. Globally there isn't a bigger star or draw.

[midnightpulp]

LOL, you just fucked up your entire thread with this statement. I need to keep up eh....

Are you that fucking stupid?

You're the one who brought team vs. team matchups into this thread. The premise of this thread is comparing individual players using each player's individual statistics.

Head-to-head record against each other is irrelevant. If we follow that idiot logic, we'd have to say that Isiah Thomas is better than Jordan because "he" holds a 3-1 lead over Jordan in the playoffs.

[midnightpulp]

Are you dense....look at the Laker road games the past decade and you see Kobe jerseys and sold out arenas. Globally there isn't a bigger star or draw.

What do ticket and merchandise sales have to do with comparing players on the hardwood?

If you want to compare Duncan and Kobe's fiscal impact, start a thread about it. This thread is comparing how they each performed in the playoffs.

Quit going off topic.

[Medvedenko]

And Kobe's the better individual player if the game is 1 on 1, but last I checked, the NBA is 5 on 5 basketball. The "skills" argument, which is what you're alluding to, is weak. Kevin Garnett has more "skills" than Shaq, but he is not the better team basketball player.

This is your quote, not mine. Like I said earlier, what has TD done statistically in the last 3 years, reg season and playoffs that eclipsed Kobe....See, stats are a funny thing eh?

[midnightpulp]

This is your quote, not mine. Like I said earlier, what has TD done statistically in the last 3 years, reg season and playoffs that eclipsed Kobe....See, stats are a funny thing eh?

Too bad the last 3 years doesn't equal an entire career, which is what we're comparing.

Fail again, Highlights.

[midnightpulp]

And lol Canadian Lakers fan.

[Medvedenko]

Too bad the last 3 years doesn't equal an entire career, which is what we're comparing.

Fail again, Highlights.

I'm happy you brought that up. The ENTIRE career is paramount and while TD spends the last few years as a role player it will be interesting to see how he fares in the history of the game, let alone being compared to a top 5 player in Kobe.

[Medvedenko]

And lol Canadian Lakers fan.

Just shows you Kobe's universal appeal.

[midnightpulp]

Just shows you Kobe's universal appeal.

No, it shows that you're a bandwagoning asshole.

[midnightpulp]

I'm happy you brought that up. The ENTIRE career is paramount and while TD spends the last few years as a role player it will be interesting to see how he fares in the history of the game, let alone being compared to a top 5 player in Kobe.

Yes it is.

And Duncan's career playoff stats and accomplishments are thus far better than Kobe's.

And I guess spending the last few years of your career as a role player is better than the first few years of your career, like Kobe was up until 2005. Still, Kobe's spent more time in the NBA as a role-player than Duncan has. And with his knee the way it is, Kobe's probably hitting role player status as early as next year.

Duncan 13 seasons as the main man on his team. Kobe 7 seasons.

I can live with that.

[Medvedenko]

Yes it is.

And Duncan's career playoff stats and accomplishments are thus far better than Kobe's.

And I guess spending the last few years of your career as a role player is better than the first few years of your career, like Kobe was up until 2005. Still, Kobe's spent more time in the NBA as a role-player than Duncan has. And with his knee the way it is, Kobe's probably hitting role player status as early as next year.

Duncan 13 seasons as the main man on his team. Kobe 7 seasons.

I can live with that.

Keep telling yourself that, when did you become a spur fan, because prior to 05 I recall Kobe having a few decent games vs your team....sorry for the late response, I was too busy watching Kobe score 61 points vs the Knicks and the 81 point game vs the raps.

[midnightpulp]

Keep telling yourself that, when did you become a spur fan, because prior to 05 I recall Kobe having a few decent games vs your team....sorry for the late response, I was too busy watching Kobe score 61 points vs the Knicks and the 81 point game vs the raps.

Kobe's a good player, so it stands to reason he's going to play well most of the time. He just hasn't played as well as Duncan in the playoffs up until this point. He seems to sputter in the Finals, where most legitimate all-time greats flourish.

Kobe's top 15 all time, and there ain't nothing wrong in that. Quite an accomplishment.

And why are you watching those games? Thought regular season doesn't matter to Lakers fans?

[Medvedenko]

Kobe's a good player, so it stands to reason he's going to play well most of the time. He just hasn't played as well as Duncan in the playoffs up until this point. He seems to sputter in the Finals, where most legitimate all-time greats flourish.

Kobe's top 15 all time, and there ain't nothing wrong in that. Quite an accomplishment.

And why are you watching those games? Thought regular season doesn't matter to Lakers fans?

Really, 7 finals appearances to 4. What has TD done in the playoffs the last 3 years. You keep skirting that question.

[midnightpulp]

Really, 7 finals appearances to 4. What has TD done in the playoffs the last 3 years. You keep skirting that question.

Why is it relevant? My thread has to do with both player's entire careers, not arbitrarily selected years.

If you want to compare both players over the last 3 years, make a thread about it.

[Medvedenko]

Why is it relevant? My thread has to do with both player's entire careers, not arbitrarily selected years.

If you want to compare both players over the last 3 years, make a thread about it.

It is relevant, your posted the ESPN top 50 performances in the finals. That a pretty big cherry pick is it not. Since Kobe went to the finals 3 more times in his career, he tops out. How many points did TD get in the finals the last 3 years. What's his per, TS% and rebounding stats. Oh yeah, 0.

[midnightpulp]

It is relevant, your posted the ESPN top 50 performances in the finals. That a pretty big cherry pick is it not. Since Kobe went to the finals 3 more times in his career, he tops out. How many points did TD get in the finals the last 3 years. What's his per, TS% and rebounding stats. Oh yeah, 0.

Not a cherry pick, as the list considered the careers of the players.

Magic went to the Finals 3 more times than Jordan. What do Finals appearances have to do with anything?

Bottom line: Both Kobe and Duncan have decent sample sizes in the Finals. Duncan places 4 times on the list, Kobe 0 (although I suspect his '09 performance would sneak in at the bottom if the list were to be redone).

And your "last 3 years" angle is retarded.

[pookenstein]

Jesus fuckin' Christ. Is there anything that Kobe isn't overrated at?

Raping.

[Fernando TD21]

Lakers fans being Lakers fans.

Can't blame them for wanting to talk up their best, but it is pretty hypocritical when they get upset and laugh at people talking up their own. It gets even more confusing when the stat comparisons are thrown out the window when the facts being brought up are all numerical. Facts are facts.

Kobe has had better teams, therefore won more rings. It is a FACT based on a numerical value. One that I will not deny. After all, the NUMBERS, say so. Of course, Duncan has the lions share of the individual playoff statistics which once again are FACTS based on numerical value. After all, the NUMBERS say so as well.

If you are using numbers to state a fact, shouldn't you acknowledge the numbers from the other side too? It isn't a difficult concept really. No Spurs fan can deny that Duncan has fewer rings than Kobe. Therefore, no Laker fan can deny that Duncan is the better individual playoff performer.

See... simple! :toast





Edit: Another thing... If you aren't going to let numbers change your mind, just say so. After all, fan is short for Fanatic.
:toast


But you can see how the ring argument can be faulty. John Havlicek is not better than Jerry West because he has 8 rings. And Hondo was a first option type player with comparable stats to West. The difference was that West never had the supporting casts like Havlicek.

And any Spurfan who uses the rings argument in a Malone/Duncan comparison commits the same fault. Duncan is not a better player than Malone because he has 4 rings, it's because he improved during the playoffs, while keeping his FG steady at 50%, while Karl dropped from 52% during the regular season to 46% during the playoffs. Huge dropoff. Not to mention Duncan is the better defender, rebounder, and playmaker.
:toast

[Quit Hatin']

Duncan already ruined his legacy when he differed to Tony Parker and Manu ginobili.

[midnightpulp]

Duncan already ruined his legacy when he differed to Tony Parker and Manu ginobili.

You obviously need to "Quit Hatin" spelling.

Per the usual for Lakers fan, though. Dumbfucks that they are.

[Quit Hatin']

I'm sorry you need a tissue.

[midnightpulp]

I'm sorry you need a tissue.

Yeah, to wipe the tears away from my face from laughing at the fact your dumbass can't spell simple words.

[Quit Hatin']

Hey you want the "because spell checking makes me cool" badge.

[midnightpulp]

Hey you want the "because spell checking makes me cool" badge.

I guess we simply differ on the importance of spelling, but if you're not sure of the proper spelling or usage of a word, it can be sometimes wise to defer to a spell checker or dictionary, so you don't come off looking like a dumbass.

[Quit Hatin']

Lol thanks for spell checking my sentence now do you understand and agree with it.

[Brazil]

Duncan already ruined his legacy when he differed to Tony Parker and Manu ginobili.

lol at this argument, the fact TD is differing to TP and Manu at the O side just show how great Tim Duncan is. Tim Duncan's preoccupation is the team not preserving his average carreer stats. BTW this what Kobe should do to help his team right now, he should begin to differ to Pau and Andrew.

[Giuseppe]

He got ya good, didn't he, Bra?

Methinks you doth protest too much.

tee, hee.

[rayjayjohnson]

There's no debate. Duncan comes out ahead every time, reducing Kobe fan to the "rings argument."

That's all they (you) have. That, and regular season scoring records.

I hate the raping bastard as much as anyone, but isn't the rings argument the only one that matters?

[TheRealCB]

Kobe

25ppg 44.8% fg/33.7% 3pt/81% ft/5.2 rpg/4.8apg/2.95TO

Timmy

23ppg 50%fg,68% ft/12.4rpg/3.5apg/2.6bpg/3TO

Dirk

25.6ppg/46% fg/37%3pt/88%ft/11rpg/2.6apg/1 bpg/2 TO


So,who is the best playoff performer of the three?

[Giuseppe]

I hate the raping bastard as much as anyone, but isn't the rings argument the only one that matters?

It was at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

---

A little different at:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[midnightpulp]

:sleep

[midnightpulp]

Kobe

25ppg 44.8% fg/33.7% 3pt/81% ft/5.2 rpg/4.8apg/2.95TO

Timmy

23ppg 50%fg,68% ft/12.4rpg/3.5apg/2.6bpg/3TO

Dirk

25.6ppg/46% fg/37%3pt/88%ft/11rpg/2.6apg/1 bpg/2 TO


So,who is the best playoff performer of the three?

Stat wise?

1.Duncan
2.Dirk
3.Kobe

Factoring in defense.

1. Duncan
2. Kobe
2b. Dirk

I'm sure Laker fan will chime in with his Dirk is a choker bullshit, but Bryant has had just as many shit performances in important playoff series as Dirk has had. Difference is, Dirk never had a Shaq or Gasol to pick up the slack. He had Josh Howard and Jason fuckin' Terry.

[Giuseppe]

:sleep

Though you weren't snoozin' at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

[TheMACHINE]

Last time I checked the best playoff stats is rings.

[ElNono]

Last time I checked the best playoff stats is rings.

Thus Horry >>>> MJ >> Kobe, logically.

[Giuseppe]

Last time I checked the best playoff stats is rings.

Yep, that's the way it was at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

And that's the way it's gonna be at:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[Giuseppe]

Thus Horry >>>> MJ >> Kobe, logically.

That's fine.

You do that one, El, and I'll handle:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

[midnightpulp]

Last time I checked the best playoff stats is rings.

Havlicek>Bryant.

[ElNono]

That's fine.

You do that one, El, and I'll handle:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

I have no problem with Kobe riding coattails to 5. Horry did it, why not Kobe?

[Giuseppe]

Havlicek>Bryant.

Fine.

You do that one, Mid.

I'll handle:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Let us proceed...

[TheMACHINE]

Thus Horry >>>> MJ >> Kobe>Duncan:depressed, logically.

Added Duncan for you...logically

[midnightpulp]

Added Duncan for you...logically

Havlicek>>>Bryant.

Logically.

[TheMACHINE]

I have no problem with Kobe riding coattails to 5. Horry did it, why not Kobe?

That's fine..too bad duncan rode ONLY 4 rings to Kobes 5.

[Giuseppe]

Havlicek>>>Bryant.

Logically.

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[TheMACHINE]

Havlicek>>>Bryant.

Logically.

Bryant>>> Duncan, logically.

Thus Havilcek>>Duncan, logically.

[ElNono]

Added Duncan for you...logically

Fine by me... I think it clearly shows that ring count has little to do when ranking the better players... Basically, dispells the contention that ring count is the best playoff stat when trying to identify the best players.

[DeadlyDynasty]

Spurfan is not going to concede to Kobe being better and Lakerfan is not going to concede to Duncan being better. We can argue this shit till we're blue in the face, but it's not going to sway anybody's opinion.

[ElNono]

Spurfan is not going to concede to Kobe being better and Lakerfan is not going to concede to Duncan being better. We can argue this shit till we're blue in the face, but it's not going to sway anybody's opinion.

Logically.

[midnightpulp]

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Boiled down.

Manu Ginobili: 3
Jerry West: 1

Let us indeed proceed.

[Giuseppe]

Boiled down.

Manu Ginobili: 3
Jerry West: 1

Let us indeed proceed.

True.

Just like:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[midnightpulp]

True.

Just like:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

You can have that, but I'm content with:

Manu: 3

Zeke: 1

[Giuseppe]

You can have that, but I'm content with:

Manu: 3

Zeke: 1

Good. I'll stick exclusively with:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[ElNono]

This finally proves that Manu > Dirk, tbh :lol

[midnightpulp]

Good. I'll stick exclusively with:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

But my guy has a two ring lead. Yours is only up by one.

tee, hee.

[TheMACHINE]

Fine by me... I think it clearly shows that ring count has little to do when ranking the better players... Basically, dispells the contention that ring count is the best playoff stat when trying to identify the best players.

good point.

Karl Malone > Tim Duncan, logically.

[midnightpulp]

This finally proves that Manu > Dirk, tbh :lol

Culburn has no problem with KC Jones>Kobe, so Manu>Dirk is a foregone conclusion.

[Giuseppe]

But my guy has a two ring lead. Yours is only up by one.

tee, hee.

I don't care.

My equation drives your people nuts.

[midnightpulp]

good point.

Karl Malone > Tim Duncan, logically.

Nope. Duncan still has better overall stats despite Malone's scoring proficiency.

Not logically.

[ElNono]

good point.

Karl Malone > Tim Duncan, logically.

I don't have a problem with people that view it like that, tbh.
I don't agree, and I think Duncan is the much more complete player.
But Malone was up there with the top PFs, so I can see where you're coming from.

[TheGreatest23]

Its obvious that Kobe winning his 5th ring really fucked up everything for Spurs fans.

[midnightpulp]

I don't care.

My equation drives your people nuts.

Yes you do care.

Methinks West is your favorite all-time Laker, and the fact that::::

Manu: 3
Zeke: 1

Grills yer goat.

[TheMACHINE]

I don't have a problem with people that view it like that, tbh.
I don't agree, and I think Duncan is the much more complete player.
But Malone was up there with the top PFs, so I can see where you're coming from.

but imo, Duncan > Malone cuz of the rings.

[Giuseppe]

Yes you do care.

Methinks West is your favorite all-time Laker, and the fact that::::

Manu: 3
Zeke: 1

Grills yer goat.

Even if West were I'd still abide the equation.

I'm a trend setter.

I set trends.

[ElNono]

but imo, Duncan > Malone cuz of the rings.

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't think rings alone is what differentiate them. I think Malone would have had the rings if he played Duncan-level defense.

[midnightpulp]

Its obvious that Kobe winning his 5th ring really fucked up everything for Spurs fans.

No.

As long as Laker fan is consistent. If they want to reduce everything to rings, then::::

KC Jones>Bryant
Manu>West

[Giuseppe]

Its obvious that Kobe winning his 5th ring really fucked up everything for Spurs fans.

That's it. And that's all.

[midnightpulp]

You're entitled to your opinion. I don't think rings alone is what differentiate them. I think Malone would have had the rings if he played Duncan-level defense.

Only a moron would use the "rings argument."

It makes no sense to credit a team championship to an individual player.

[Giuseppe]

No.

As long as Laker fan is consistent. If they want to reduce everything to rings, then::::

KC Jones>Bryant
Manu>West

Sure. I got no problem with that. I had no problem with:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

I wanted 5-4 Kobe, but, I cited 4-3 Duncan, and soldiered on.

[midnightpulp]

That's it. And that's all.

I'm fine and dandy, because I have:

Manu: 3
Zeke/Baylor: 1

[Giuseppe]

Only a moron would use the "rings argument."

It makes no sense to credit a team championship to an individual player.

It's just a mechanism for ball busting.

You all tortured us with it at 4-3 Duncan. It's only right & proper that we strip you down naked and do likewise at 5-4 Kobe.

[Giuseppe]

I'm fine and dandy, because I have:

Manu: 3
Zeke/Baylor: 1

Who's "Zeke" again?

[TheMACHINE]

I'm fine and dandy, because I have:

Manu: 3
Zeke/Baylor: 1

Congratz to Manu.

and Congrats to Kobe for 1-upping Duncan.

[TheMACHINE]

It's just a mechanism for ball busting.

You all tortured us with it at 4-3 Duncan. It's only right & proper that we strip you down naked and do likewise at 5-4 Kobe.

Cully, based on your equation, does this work too?

Kobe 5
Spurs Franchise 4

Thus, Kobe > Spurs Franchise

[midnightpulp]

It's just a mechanism for ball busting.

You all tortured us with it at 4-3 Duncan. It's only right & proper that we strip you down naked and do likewise at 5-4 Kobe.

I wasn't one of those wielding the whip, however.

I'm not a user of the rings argument.

I stay focused on the individual in these comparisons. Like Finals MVPs. And that count is at:::

Duncan: 3
Kobe: 2

[Giuseppe]

I wasn't one of those wielding the whip, however.

I'm not a user of the rings argument.

I stay focused on the individual in these comparisons. Like Finals MVPs. And that count is at:::

Duncan: 3
Kobe: 2

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[midnightpulp]

Cully, based on your equation, does this work too?

Kobe 5
Spurs Franchise 4

Thus, Kobe > Spurs Franchise

Steve Garvey>Angels Franchise, if you want to play that game. He has more Pennants than the entire shitty Angel franchise.

[Giuseppe]

Cully, based on your equation, does this work too?

Kobe 5
Spurs Franchise 4

Thus, Kobe > Spurs Franchise

True, but, that one doesn't get their ire like:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

They absolutely loath that one. There are consequences & repercussions to winning an NBA World Championship.

Next time don't get skunked.

[Giuseppe]

Steve Garvey>Angels Franchise, if you want to play that game. He has more Pennants than the entire shitty Angel franchise.

Mid, you're makin' an ass of yourself.

- "Go to lunch. Will you please go to lunch?"

- "Williamson" - "Glenngary Glennross"

[xellos88330]

Cully, based on your equation, does this work too?

Kobe 5
Spurs Franchise 4

Thus, Kobe > Spurs Franchise

Come on Sasha...

Spurs Franchise has a shitload more than Kobe. Add in Holt's rings, Popovich's assistants, bench players, the whole enchilada. Franchise is a business. Therefore all the rings won by the WHOLE franchise should count if you are going to throw in that word.

[midnightpulp]

Mid, you're makin' an ass of yourself.

- "Go to lunch. Will you please go to lunch?"

- "Williamson" - "Glenngary Glennross"

How? My Garvey example is consistent with your logic, as is Sandy Koufax>Cleveland Indians.

[midnightpulp]

Come on Sasha...

Spurs Franchise has a shitload more than Kobe. Add in Holt's rings, Popovich's assistants, bench players, the whole enchilada. Franchise is a business. Therefore all the rings won by the WHOLE franchise should count if you are going to throw in that word.

He can play that game if he wants. But if he is, he needs to understand and accept:::

Kirk Gibson: 2 rings.
Shitty Angels franchise: 1 ring

Thus, Kirk Gibson>Shitty Angel franchise.

[Giuseppe]

Jesus, we took the pickle in the finest tradition at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

And you guys were plain spoken and brief about it. No addendums, no qualifiers. Just pure:

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

:rolleyes

[midnightpulp]

Jesus, we took the pickle in the finest tradition at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

And you guys were plain spoken and brief about it. No addendums, no qualifiers. Just pure:

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

:rolleyes

What pickle did you take? You were dicking around at Sose's joint when that pickle was being given. You only came 'round here when the going was good, when Kobe was knotted up at 4.

You have no place.

[BanditHiro]

Jesus, we took the pickle in the finest tradition at:::

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

And you guys were plain spoken and brief about it. No addendums, no qualifiers. Just pure:

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 3

:rolleyes

lol who the fuck cared about kobe at the time except the kobe fanfags that would try to bring him into the discussion. Shaq getting his 4th before Duncan was way more irksome

[Giuseppe]

What pickle did you take? You were dicking around at Sose's joint when that pickle was being given. You only came 'round here when the going was good, when Kobe was knotted up at 4.

You have no place.

True.

But, I still took the pickle in essence.

& nonetheless whereas my Lakers Brothers suffer I suffer. Ipso facto when they were stripped naked, bent over and tossed said pickle. I was also done likewise.

- "And that hurts. I wasn't able to go to Flags the next day. I had to sit on a box of frozen peas all day."

- "Jennifer Chek" - "Jennifer's Body"

[BUMP]

Giuseppe

[Giuseppe]

lol who the fuck cared about kobe at the time except the kobe fanfags that would try to bring him into the discussion. Shaq getting his 4th before Duncan was way more irksome

I call ass. You f'ers don't give two shits about Daddy eclipsing Duncan. It's nothing but a ruse to put us off the scent of Kobe eclipsing not only Duncan, but, also Daddy. You f'ers don't like that one either. I've seen ya's sniffin' Daddy's blow hole.

Don't even start.

[xellos88330]

I call ass. You f'ers don't give two shits about Daddy eclipsing Duncan. It's nothing but a ruse to put us off the scent of Kobe eclipsing not only Duncan, but, also Daddy. You f'ers don't like that one either. I've seen ya's sniffin' Daddy's blow hole.

Don't even start.

So, if Duncan beats Kobe in the WCF, and wins his 5th ring. Who is better? Kobe or Duncan?

[Giuseppe]

So, if Duncan beats Kobe in the WCF, and wins his 5th ring. Who is better? Kobe or Duncan?

^In that precise protocol::: Tim Duncan

[midnightpulp]

I call ass. You f'ers don't give two shits about Daddy eclipsing Duncan. It's nothing but a ruse to put us off the scent of Kobe eclipsing not only Duncan, but, also Daddy. You f'ers don't like that one either. I've seen ya's sniffin' Daddy's blow hole.

Don't even start.

Cause he ain't a Laker no more.

That's what this all about, has always been about. The Lakers. The best player on the Lakers will always be the biggest villain and subject to ridicule. In the halcyon 3 peat days, it was slights against Daddy's weight and attitude, and today, we're taking Kobe to task for all his deficiencies.

Just the way it works.

[xellos88330]

^In that precise protocol:::Duncan

Well, then I hope that Duncan and the Spurs follow that protocol so I can toss you a pickle. :toast

[Giuseppe]

Well, then I hope that Duncan and the Spurs follow that protocol so I can toss you a pickle. :toast

You ain't gonna like my wrinkled ass anymore than jj likes it.

[xellos88330]

You ain't gonna like my wrinkled ass anymore than jj likes it.

It's not me you should be worried about.

It is this...

http://www.boulderjewishfestival.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/pickle.jpg

[Giuseppe]

Cause he ain't a Laker no more.

That's what this all about, has always been about. The Lakers. The best player on the Lakers will always be the biggest villain and subject to ridicule. In the halcyon 3 peat days, it was slights against Daddy's weight and attitude, and today, we're taking Kobe to task for all his deficiencies.

Just the way it works.

That's not it and you know it. Your fandom's preoccupation with Bryant is the crux of this "debate." You never thought he'd ring again (frankly I didn't either). Now that he has you're all consumed by your hatreds and bigotry.

[Giuseppe]

It's not me you should be worried about.

It is this...

http://www.boulderjewishfestival.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/pickle.jpg

Wow!

[midnightpulp]

That's not it and you know it. Your fandom's preoccupation with Bryant is the crux of this "debate." You never thought he'd ring again (frankly I didn't either). Now that he has you're all consumed by your hatreds and bigotry.

Hatred for the Lakers, yes.

If Bryant won his 4th and 5th with the Bulls, I wouldn't bat an eye. My hatred for the Lakers franchise far supercedes that of any individual player.

I use Bryant as a trolling mechanism because your fanbase's emotional attachment to him borders on the romantic and the religious.

[ALVAREZ6]

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/images/ency/fullsize/19813.jpg

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/salamander-280x400.jpg

http://christthetruth.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/anger.jpg

http://www.deviantart.com/download/2286940/Barney_madly_in_anger_with_U_by_lyonlamb.jpg

[TheMACHINE]

True...angels are pretty shitty.

Proceed with Kobe 5 - Duncan 4

[BanditHiro]

True...angels are pretty shitty.

Proceed with Kobe 5 - Duncan 4

but the conversation has been concluded...both parties agreed that Duncan is in fact a better overall player in the playoffs than Kobe..

[TheMACHINE]

I use Bryant as a trolling mechanism because your fanbase's emotional attachment to him borders on the romantic and the religious.

LoL...yet your the one writing essays and research papers about him.

Let us proceed. 5-4

[Ghazi]

TheMACHINE

[Killakobe81]

LOL Horry, hondo etc being used in the same sentence with Duncan, kobe and MJ ...

[dbreiden83080]

Boiled down...

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

More like

Kobe 2

Duncan 4

[dbreiden83080]

None of that happy horseshit.

We're talking about the individual here.

Duncan 3 Finals MVPs, Kobe 2.

Yes that is what happens when Kobe plays with a top 5 all time center in his prime and Duncan is stuck winning a title with Robinson in his final season and Parker and Ginobli who were more about turnovers than points in those days..

[Giuseppe]

More like

Kobe 2

Duncan 4

Perhaps, but, it's:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[Cessation]

lol butthurt kobe bean fanboys

[TheMACHINE]

lol butthurt kobe bean fanboys

Lol butthurt Duncan fans can't accept facts. 5-4

[TDfan2007]

Lol butthurt Duncan fans can't accept facts. 5-4

Pippen - 6

Kobe - 4

Pippen > Kobe

I love lakerfan logic. This is fun!

[Giuseppe]

Pippen - 6

Kobe - 4

Pippen > Kobe

I love lakerfan logic. This is fun!

I got no problem with it.

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

[dbreiden83080]

I got no problem with it.

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

So Pippen is better than Duncan, Kobe and Shaq..

Also better than Magic, Bird and Hakeem..

[midnightpulp]

Worth a bump, considering all the Duncan threads being started by Kobe cocksuckers.

[Killakobe81]

Worth a bump, considering all the Duncan threads being started by Kobe cocksuckers.

So not worth it ...

if you are arguing who had a better playoff or finals resume some good points here. But if you are asking where there all-time ranks are you have to factor rings, playoff performaces/success, and regular season.

I agree duncan at one time was the better Finals/playoff performer. But I love how Spur fans act like the past 4 playoffs never happened ...just like some Kobe fans act like the airballs against Utah or 6-24 never happened. I take all of that in to consideration and feel Kobe is greater ... but some of the Duncan fans want to give him and edge solely based on 1999-2007 ...which is quite silly.

So Hakeem is greater than Duncan because in his Finals MVP year he shit on every center known to man? No he is not. All-time Duncan PROBABLY gets the edge ...but prime Hakeem destroys Duncan. See the difference?

Ducan was far greater from 1999-2001
Kobe narrows the gap from 2002-2007, but duncan still on top ...
2008 - present ...Kobe catches and passes duncan in rings, stats, some of your precious advanced stats ...that is why he is ranked higher.

[pass1st]

Phil Jackson = GOAT

13 rings

[z0sa]

i seem to be confused.. there's a debate over who's higher ranked? I thought that only existed in giuseppe's dreams and stuff

[WeNeedLength]

Lakers fans are faggots. That is all.

[DMC]

Jackson missed being part of New York's 1970 championship season due to spinal fusion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_fusion) surgery; however, he authored a book entitled "Take It All," a photo diary of the Knicks' 1970 Championship run.

That says all I need to know about the frontrunner.

[Giuseppe]

I got no problem with it.

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

Obviously afore the shit bag.

[Spur_Fanatic]

Not worth to necro, since few care of Culby's tirade.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duncan isn't in the top 3 in any category, Kobe is
Kobe has a chance to end up #1 in total career playoff points

[ogait]

Nice thread. Medvedenko certainly has secured his legacy has the most retarded argument maker on the history of Spurs Talk.

[ogait]

Ducan was far greater from 1999-2001
Kobe narrows the gap from 2002-2007, but duncan still on top ...
2008 - present ...Kobe catches and passes duncan in rings, stats, some of your precious advanced stats ...that is why he is ranked higher.

Killa you are one the few Lakers fans that makes sense in this thread, but how exactly does Kobe narrows the gap from 2002 to 2007?

Seeing how you value rings, it has to be noticed that Duncan won 3 in that span of time and he also played maybe the most impressive playoff run of anyone post MJ in 2003 when you consider the value of his team and the final outcome (only Dirk run last year compares imo). Kobe has a couple of scoring championships, sabotaging his team in the finals, missing the playoffs and first round losses to show for.

Anyway in the big picture Kobe at age 31 was fortunately to have one more ring than Duncan. After that Duncan's decline has been much more pronounced than Kobe's but the role played on the championships runs has to be the main factor. Let's say, just for argument sake, that the Spurs somehow managed to win a ring this year (lol not going to happen). Seeing how Duncan is no longer the Spurs best player that ring it shouldn't add much if any value to his overall career.

Imo post MJ it's like this.
Shaq best prime.
Duncan and Shaq tied in first as overall career.
Kobe more rings (tied with Horry).

Maybe a championship well in his 30's as the man (sorry bringing in Dwight to do the work doesn't qualify) as well as a dominant finals performance for a change can put him in the same level of those 2.

[Giuseppe]

Killa you are one the few Lakers fans that makes sense in this thread, but how exactly does Kobe narrows the gap from 2002 to 2007?

Seeing how you value rings, it has to be noticed that Duncan won 3 in that span of time and he also played maybe the most impressive playoff run of anyone post MJ in 2003 when you consider the value of his team and the final outcome (only Dirk run last year compares imo). Kobe has a couple of scoring championships, sabotaging his team in the finals, missing the playoffs and first round losses to show for.

Anyway in the big picture Kobe at age 31 was fortunately to have one more ring than Duncan. After that Duncan's decline has been much more pronounced than Kobe's but the role played on the championships runs has to be the main factor. Let's say, just for argument sake, that the Spurs somehow managed to win a ring this year (lol not going to happen). Seeing how Duncan is no longer the Spurs best player that ring it shouldn't add much if any value to his overall career.

Imo post MJ it's like this.
Shaq best prime.
Duncan and Shaq tied in first as overall career.
Kobe more rings (tied with Horry).

Maybe a championship well in his 30's as the man (sorry bringing in Dwight to do the work doesn't qualify) as well as a dominant finals performance for a change can put him in the same level of those 2.

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

[daslicer]

Boiled down:::

Kobe: 5

tired old shit bag Duncan: 4

:lolTypical old faggot who cares you won't be around in 10 years anyways. I'm going to use my line

Duncan: 5 mvps

Alimony bitch Kobe: 3 mvps

[Giuseppe]

:lolTypical old faggot who cares you won't be around in 10 years anyways. I'm going to use my line

Duncan: 5 mvps

Alimony bitch Kobe: 3 mvps

To begin with:::only pussies and assholes do MVPs.

[LkrFan]

2000 First Round. Duncan's injured and doesn't play, Spurs don't advance.

2005, 06, 07, Kobe's totally healthy (aside from a few games in '05). Team misses playoffs, gets raped by Nash twice.

Who doesn't make their team better again?

Well well well. Interesting, wouldn't you say mid? ;)

[Reck]

Lkrfan with the bumping fever tonight. :lol

[midnightpulp]

Well well well. Interesting, wouldn't you say mid? ;)

Never said I blame him.

Besides, I was counter-trolling luva anyhow.

[LkrFan]

Never said I blame him.

Besides, I was counter-trolling luva anyhow.
:downspin: that shiiiiiiiiiit I said. :lol