Philadelphia doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[mrsmaalox]

Have you guys read about this? Absolutely horrific...

Philadelphia doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

Philadelphia (CNN) -- Allegedly running what the prosecutor calls "a house of horrors," a Philadelphia physician, Kermit Barron Gosnell, was charged Wednesday with murder and other offenses related to illegal, late-term abortions.
The doctor is accused of causing the death of one of his female patients and killing seven viable babies in illegal abortions, Philadelphia District Attorney Seth Williams said.
The babies were born alive in the sixth, seventh and eighth months of pregnancy, but their spinal cords were allegedly severed with scissors, Williams said in a statement.
Nine other people who worked in the west Philadelphia medical office, including Gosnell's wife and sister-in-law, also were charged, Williams said. The practice, called the Women's Medical Society, served mostly low-income minority women for years, he said.
Williams provided a grisly scenario of the shuttered abortion clinic: A search of the office last year by authorities found bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken.
In an interview with CNN, Williams described the abortion clinic as "horrific" and providing "botched and illegal abortions."
"It was a house of horrors beyond any type of definition or explanation I can humbly try to give," Williams told CNN. "And it's very sad for the women that were there, that were subjected to such horrific and barbaric -- I would say medical treatment but it wasn't medical -- treatment.
"My grasp of the English language doesn't really allow me to fully describe how horrific this clinic was -- rotting bodies, fetal remains, the smell of urine throughout, blood-stained," Williams continued.
He said women patients were often "very poor."
"The doctor gained a reputation. People far and wide knew that he performed abortions at any time," Williams said.
Williams described one of the alleged infant deaths.
"The baby had been born and was on a cold steel table and murdered by using -- there's no medical basis for snipping or taking scissors and putting them into the neck and cutting, severing the spinal cord. It's just homicide. It's just murder," Williams told CNN.
--------------------------------------------------------

Too long to post, the rest of the story is here:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/19/pennsylvania.abortion.doctor/index.html?hpt=T1

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Yep. How could this bastard perform abortions without even practicing medicine?!?!!
And he didn't do it for months it was frickin' yearsssss. He deserves everything coming at him now and on the other side. Sorry sack of putrid monkey shit!!!

[lebomb]

Death Penalty.................

..............then he will roast in the fiery pits of hell.

[mrsmaalox]

Yep. How could this bastard perform abortions without even practicing medicine?!?!!
And he didn't do it for months it was frickin' yearsssss. He deserves everything coming at him now and on the other side. Sorry sack of putrid monkey shit!!!

He is a doctor, but he's not certified in OB or GYN

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Jesus!...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

He is a doctor, but he's not certified in OB or GYN

So not being trained as an OB/GYN, or a "doctor" for that matter, keeps one from performing barbaric actions against defenseless human beings for many years? Gee. Where do I sign up?

[mrsmaalox]

So not being trained as an OB/GYN, or a "doctor" for that matter, keeps one from performing barbaric actions against defenseless human beings for many years? Gee. Where do I sign up?

No, being a decent human being with a conscience is what keeps one from doing such things :)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

No, being a decent human being with a conscience is what keeps one from doing such things :)

Ah. So you were just correcting my statement. I thought you were saying he wasn't trained with open plumbing and that made him do these bad things. Gotcha :toast

[Trainwreck2100]

Yep. How could this bastard perform abortions without even practicing medicine?!?!!
And he didn't do it for months it was frickin' yearsssss. He deserves everything coming at him now and on the other side. Sorry sack of putrid monkey shit!!!

What do the women who went to him deserve

[Viva Las Espuelas]

What do the women who went to him deserve

That's not for me to determine.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Dare I say, that's waaaaaaaaaay above my pay grade.


















I shall :reading

[Trainwreck2100]

[/LIST]13416]That's not for me to determine.

But the doctor is?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

But the doctor is?

That's exactly what I said after I read that same post.

[mrsmaalox]

What do the women who went to him deserve

To be treated humanely?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

To be treated humanely?

I think the actual act of getting the abortion is his angle, imo

[desflood]

To be treated humanely?

bags and bottles holding aborted fetuses scattered throughout the building. Jars containing the severed feet of babies lined a shelf. Furniture and equipment was blood-stained, dusty and broken.

"My grasp of the English language doesn't really allow me to fully describe how horrific this clinic was -- rotting bodies, fetal remains, the smell of urine throughout, blood-stained,"
How high, drunk, and/or stupid do you have to be to voluntarily walk into a place that looks and smells like the Hostel torture building and expect to be treated well?

[Trainwreck2100]

I think the actual act of getting the abortion is his angle, imo

that's for another thread, my angle is that these abortions were knowingly done illegally. The doctor didn't put a gun to these women's heads and say get on the bed. If its murder its murder both should be culpable or both should walk.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

that's for another thread, my angle is that these abortions were knowingly done illegally. The doctor didn't put a gun to these women's heads and say get on the bed. If its murder its murder both should be culpable or both should walk.

Ah. I got you now. Good point. Didn't think of that. Well it depends on the actual place the patient saw or had the procedure done. One question that comes up is did they do it with this guy cuz of low cost, secrecy, etc? F'd up all around.

[mrsmaalox]

How high, drunk, and/or stupid do you have to be to voluntarily walk into a place that looks and smells like the Hostel torture building and expect to be treated well?

I don't know, but from the article I assumed they were probably very poor, ignorant ( uneducated) and desperate; possibly abused and/or victimized.

I don't think you necessarily have to treat a person well to be humane.

[vy65]

I don't know, but from the article I assumed they were probably very poor, ignorant ( uneducated) and desperate; possibly abused and/or victimized.

I don't think you necessarily have to treat a person well to be humane.

The irony . . .

[Summers]

Oy, this is one of those things I wish I didn't know. :(

When I was about 10, my mom was a floor nurse supervisor in a hospital in the Austin area and I overheard her telling my dad about a doctor that was being fired (and the hospital being sued) because he was doing an ultrasound on a pregnant woman and just sort of wigged out. He thought the baby's heart rate was dropping, so he grabbed a scalpel and began cutting her open. She was 6 months pregnant and just there for a routine US, wide awake, etc.

But this article is way worse than that.

[johnsmith]

I can't begin to describe how much I wished that I didn't read that story.




This is the kind of person that I think everyone in America should get one free shot at, then he should be executed.

[boutons_deux]

Hey, it's a job, he's a millionaire! Isn't that The American Dream?

[Creepn]

I would like to see pictures of this office. The doctor had jars of baby parts all over the place? Or was there some secret locked rooms filled with jars? I find it hard to believe that you walk into an office and see jars of baby parts in the lobby and nobody says anything for years.

But fuck, digging scissors in a baby's neck and snipping it??:wow Then putting body parts in jars and shelving it for show?? That is like devil shit right there. Pure evilness.

[CosmicCowboy]

You guys ever heard the term "partial birth abortion"? It is still perfectly legal to kill late term babies...You just have to do it before they get completely out of the mother. They take these tong/scissor things and crush the back of their skull. This guy just got lazy and did it out on the table.

[mrsmaalox]

Isn't there a Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003? Upheld by the Supreme Court in 2006 or 2007? And as I understand it, most states also have banned it; I need to do some refresher reading on that stuff.

p.s. I'm aware that other methods of late term abortion are legal, it's just this particular method that has been banned

[ploto]

Gosnell didn't advertise, but word got around. Women came from across the city, state and region for illegal late-term abortions, authorities said. They paid $325 for first-trimester abortions and $1,600 to $3,000 for abortions up to 30 weeks. The clinic took in $10,000 to $15,000 a day, authorities said.

"People knew near and far that if you needed a late-term abortion you could go see Dr. Gosnell," Williams said.

White women from the suburbs were ushered into a separate, slightly cleaner area because Gosnell believed they were more likely to file complaints, Williams said.

Few if any of the sedated patients knew their babies had been delivered alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were much further along, authorities said.

Prosecutors said Gosnell falsified the ultrasound examinations that determine how far along a pregnancy is, teaching his staff to hold the probe in such a way that the fetus would look smaller...

State regulators ignored complaints about Gosnell and the 46 lawsuits filed against him, and made just five annual inspections, most satisfactory, since the clinic opened in 1979, authorities said. The inspections stopped completely in 1993...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/19/AR2011011902911.html

[CosmicCowboy]

Isn't there a Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003? Upheld by the Supreme Court in 2006 or 2007? And as I understand it, most states also have banned it; I need to do some refresher reading on that stuff.

p.s. I'm aware that other methods of late term abortion are legal, it's just this particular method that has been banned

Oops, you are correct. I remember that Obama voted against banning the procedure. Apparently they still do late term abortions but to get around the law just inject the fetus with drugs to kill it before it comes out...

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/women/articles/2007/08/10/shots_assist_in_aborting_fetuses/?page=1

[CosmicCowboy]

What a crazy legal world we live in. Injecting a live potentially viable baby with the same drug used to execute criminals is perfectly legal as long as it's still in the womb.

BTW, I am not anti-abortion. Just pointing out the inconsistency.

[mrsmaalox]

What a crazy legal world we live in. Injecting a live potentially viable baby with the same drug used to execute criminals is perfectly legal as long as it's still in the womb.

Yea it's crazy. But if the baby comes out dead already, that pretty much cancels out the viability question and prevents the individual doctor from having to make that call at that moment. I think that's the reasoning......

[CosmicCowboy]

Yea it's crazy. But if the baby comes out dead already, that pretty much cancels out the viability question and prevents the individual doctor from having to make that call at that moment. I think that's the reasoning......

I guess everyone has to follow their own moral compass...I'm pretty sure I'd be saying "You dumb bitch...you waited six fucking months to decide to get an abortion? You need to talk to an adoption agency because I'm not killing that baby..."

[mrsmaalox]

I guess everyone has to follow their own moral compass...I'm pretty sure I'd be saying "You dumb bitch...you waited six fucking months to decide to get an abortion? You need to talk to an adoption agency because I'm not killing that baby..."

Yea well it's a pretty rotten situation all the way around, that's for sure.

[Sisk]

Can't wait to hear BR's opinion.

[Sisk]

I hope that the doctor and everyone else that knew even a little information about any of this gets killed.

[Wild Cobra]

So not being trained as an OB/GYN, or a "doctor" for that matter, keeps one from performing barbaric actions against defenseless human beings for many years? Gee. Where do I sign up?
That's funny that it should take a certificate to allow you to murder innocent life.

[Wild Cobra]

To be treated humanely?
Hmmmm...

A woman who wants a doctor to kill innocent life, in a late term abortion, should be treated with respect?

Such women should be in jail for assisting in murder.

[vy65]

Hmmmm...

A woman who wants a doctor to kill innocent life, in a late term abortion, should be treated with respect?

Such women should be in jail for assisting in murder.

It's not murder.

[Wild Cobra]

It's not murder.
By law, it's not. Morally, it is. In fact, late term abortions are illegal in some places.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

And who in the hell would name their kid Kermit?

[Kori Ellis]

You guys ever heard the term "partial birth abortion"? It is still perfectly legal to kill late term babies...You just have to do it before they get completely out of the mother. They take these tong/scissor things and crush the back of their skull. This guy just got lazy and did it out on the table.

Not in most states, right? I thought most states made it illegal after 20 or 24 weeks.

[ChumpDumper]

Not in most states, right? I thought most states made it illegal after 20 or 24 weeks.A ban has been black letter federal law since 2003.

[mrsmaalox]

A ban has been black letter federal law since 2003.

As I understand it, the federal ban is on the late term abortion method called "partial birth". Most states have banned all late term abortions after 24 weeks. There's a handful of states that allow late term abortions by methods other than partial birth. And I believe all states will permit it in the event that the mother's life is in danger.

[ChumpDumper]

As I understand it, the federal ban is on the late term abortion method called "partial birth". Most states have banned all late term abortions after 24 weeks. There's a handful of states that allow late term abortions by methods other than partial birth. And I believe all states will permit it in the event that the mother's life is in danger.Correct. Should have been more specific saying what I was talking about. The mother's life exception exists in the federal law too, though it would be a tough sell in court.

[lil'mo]

ima have to say that im pro choice and i support this doctor and his patients

[lil'mo]

yall are all about as cool as a late term abortion

[Jekka]

I read an extended article on this earlier today. I'm definitely pro-choice, but I also think you should get your shit together way before 24 weeks. I know that nothing behind a decision like that is simple, but Jesus. Birth control should be free and everywhere. If your boyfriend doesn't want to use condoms and you can't remember to take a pill? Get a freaking IUD. Use the Ring. Wear the Patch. Get an Implanon. Cervical cap, diaphragm, sponge, spermicide. Something, anything.

The scissors bit will haunt me, and while his crimes against the fetuses are heinous, I am just as horrified that these women felt that getting what is basically a back alley abortion was their only option.

[Homeland Security]

The upshot is that what would have been several hundred future black criminals will never grow up to steal, rape, and kill. He saved us all both the mayhem and the cost of trying and incarcerating them.

Gosnell should get a medal, not an indictment.

[ploto]

I am just as horrified that these women felt that getting what is basically a back alley abortion was their only option.
It is your only option when you are getting an illegal abortion- which in PA is after 24 weeks.

[Jekka]

It is your only option when you are getting an illegal abortion- which in PA is after 24 weeks.

I'm saying that an illegal abortion should not have been these women's only option. It should never have come to that in the first place.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I'm saying that an illegal abortion should not have been these women's only option. It should never have come to that in the first place.

Hmmm and I imagine the reason for you saying your last statement is because birth control wasn't available for free and everywhere to everyone, right?
ok.................

Are you for the banning of any types of guns?

[Trainwreck2100]

Gosnell didn't advertise, but word got around. Women came from across the city, state and region for illegal late-term abortions, authorities said. They paid $325 for first-trimester abortions and $1,600 to $3,000 for abortions up to 30 weeks. The clinic took in $10,000 to $15,000 a day, authorities said.

"People knew near and far that if you needed a late-term abortion you could go see Dr. Gosnell," Williams said.

White women from the suburbs were ushered into a separate, slightly cleaner area because Gosnell believed they were more likely to file complaints, Williams said.

Few if any of the sedated patients knew their babies had been delivered alive and then killed, prosecutors said. Many were first-time mothers who were told they were 24 weeks pregnant, even if they were much further along, authorities said.

Prosecutors said Gosnell falsified the ultrasound examinations that determine how far along a pregnancy is, teaching his staff to hold the probe in such a way that the fetus would look smaller...

State regulators ignored complaints about Gosnell and the 46 lawsuits filed against him, and made just five annual inspections, most satisfactory, since the clinic opened in 1979, authorities said. The inspections stopped completely in 1993...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/19/AR2011011902911.html
Bullshit

[Viva Las Espuelas]

The picture they paint is just too macabre for no one at all, with any sense, to notice and report what the hell was going on there for all those years. It's to the point where it sounds like fiction.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PHILADELPHIA – When Davida Johnson walked into Dr. Kermit Gosnell's clinic to get an abortion in 2001, she saw what she described as dazed women sitting in dirty, bloodstained recliners. As the abortion got under way, she had a change of heart — but claims she was forced by the doctor to continue.
"I said, 'I don't want to do this,' and he smacked me. They tied my hands and arms down and gave me more medication," Johnson told The Associated Press.
Johnson, then 21, had a 3-year-old daughter when she became pregnant again. She said she first went to Planned Parenthood in downtown Philadelphia but was frightened away by protesters.
"The picketers out there, they just scared me half to death," Johnson, now 30, recalled this week.
Someone sent her to Gosnell's West Philadelphia clinic, at the Women's Medical Society, saying anti-abortion protesters wouldn't be a problem there. She said she paid him $400 cash.
A few months after the abortion, she began to have gynecological problems. An examination revealed venereal disease. She blames Gosnell, 69, for the lifelong illness, which she declined to identify, and for the four miscarriages she has subsequently suffered.
Johnson learned last week that Philadelphia prosecutors believe Gosnell frequently delivered late-term babies alive at his clinic, then severed their spines with scissors, and often stored the fetal bodies — along with staff lunches — in refrigerators at the squalid facility. Tiny baby feet, prosecutors said, were discovered in specimen jars, lined up in a macabre collection.
"Did he do that to mine? Did he stab him in the neck?" Johnson asked at her North Philadelphia home. "Because I was out of it. I don't know what he did to my baby."


Rest of the artice. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110123/ap_on_re_us/us_abortion_clinic_investigation_8)

[lil'mo]

right right..i'm also pro choice, i think i should have hte choice to kill ugly babies like that bastard child of yours

shyeah right brah, i have the most beautiful & handsome baby boy in existence :toast

[Jekka]

Are you for the banning of any types of guns?... non sequitur much?

Hmmm and I imagine the reason for you saying your last statement is because birth control wasn't available for free and everywhere to everyone, right?
ok.................
Holy crap, you're taking a sentiment that I don't think MOST people would argue with (that this is tragic and none of these women should have been at that "clinic" in the first place) and made an issue out of it. I just pointed out that it would be better make it easier to prevent these situations than not. This was a really dumb place to come looking for an argument.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

... non sequitur much?

Holy crap, you're taking a sentiment that I don't think MOST people would argue with (that this is tragic and none of these women should have been at that "clinic" in the first place) and made an issue out of it. I just pointed out that it would be better make it easier to prevent these situations than not. This was a really dumb place to come looking for an argument.

Well, thanks for letting explain myself. Silly me to ask politely where you stood before I did..........but I guess I missed the mark there, huh?...........

By you answering that way, It tells me you'll give more liberties to a clear-state-of-mind minor, rather that a clear-state-of-mind adult. That they would do the right thing with something readily available that could have a life-altering affect if not used properly.

.............That's all.

[MannyIsGod]

Rick Perry doing his best to keep "doctors" like this guy in business.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171032

I wonder what Perry's stance on gun laws is (Obviously very important in this debate).

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Well I'm sure the catch-all birth control devices out there will prevent that from ever happening.

And I believe he's pro second amendment, iirc.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Also, I'm saying all I've said here in regards to minors. Kids. If you're in preK-12th, you're a kid. I didn't read that thread in the other forum. Didn't know about it til now. I don't think it's the government's place to do that. Especially, since we'll all be paying for it, but in the grand scheme of things, we'll be paying for it either way.

[vy65]

I'd like to know what makes this type of abortion so (morally) wrong compared to abortions that take place earlier? Is it there an argument that the fetus feels more pain compared, and that's why it's bad? Is it because there's a horror-movie quality to the image of snapping a fetus's spine with scissors?

I'm just curious as to how you can justify opposition to partial-birth abortions while claiming that a woman has a right to chose?

And for the record, I'm not supporting what this doctor did. I just wonder if these two positions are or are not contradictory.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I just wonder if these two positions are or are not contradictory.
Well I know two people here don't understand contradiction. Or so it seems.

[MannyIsGod]

Well I'm sure the catch-all birth control devices out there will prevent that from ever happening.

And I believe he's pro second amendment, iirc.

I don't think anyone ever advocated that "catch all" BC would eradicate this. I think it should be obvious that better birth control policies lower instances of illegal abortions taking place. But maybe we should think about gun control and see where it factors in that situation.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You are easily distracted. Not surprised.

[MannyIsGod]

I'd like to know what makes this type of abortion so (morally) wrong compared to abortions that take place earlier? Is it there an argument that the fetus feels more pain compared, and that's why it's bad? Is it because there's a horror-movie quality to the image of snapping a fetus's spine with scissors?

I'm just curious as to how you can justify opposition to partial-birth abortions while claiming that a woman has a right to chose?

And for the record, I'm not supporting what this doctor did. I just wonder if these two positions are or are not contradictory.

Its not a contradiction if you believe abortion is Ok at one point in the pregnancy but not at another. Its a contradiction because of the way you're framing it but its obviously not cut and dry. There could be many reasons why someone would feel this is the case but more than likely it has to do with the development level of the fetus.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Forest. Not tree.

[vy65]

Its not a contradiction if you believe abortion is Ok at one point in the pregnancy but not at another.

That's my question: what's the logic for that belief?

[MannyIsGod]

You are easily distracted. Not surprised.

Maybe, doesn't change that you brought in completely irrelevant information into the debate and missed an obvious and fairly widely accepted point.

[MannyIsGod]

That's my question: what's the logic for that belief?

I gave you an example as far as the developmental level of the fetus goes. I'm not going to speak for everyone, but personally I don't view a fetus that cannot survive without the mother's body as an independent life. Obviously, as we get further into the term this changes.

[MannyIsGod]

Forest. Not tree.

Can tree's own guns?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Maybe, doesn't change that you brought in completely irrelevant information into the debate and missed an obvious and fairly widely accepted point.


Forest. Not tree.


Thanks for confirming my point. Have a good day. :toast

[MannyIsGod]

I support gun control for trees.

[LnGrrrR]

I guess everyone has to follow their own moral compass...I'm pretty sure I'd be saying "You dumb bitch...you waited six fucking months to decide to get an abortion? You need to talk to an adoption agency because I'm not killing that baby..."

That's pretty much how I feel about it too. I don't think it's quite as bad, morally speaking, if it happens early in the pregnancy (within the first two/three months). Still not great, but better than late-term.

In a realpolitik-way though, outlawing abortions just leads desperate mothers to places like this, sadly.

[LnGrrrR]

I gave you an example as far as the developmental level of the fetus goes. I'm not going to speak for everyone, but personally I don't view a fetus that cannot survive without the mother's body as an independent life. Obviously, as we get further into the term this changes.

Manny, I used to think that way too, but then someone brought up the point that babies, even independent of the mother physically, are still dependent on the mother (or caregiver) to provide nutrition for them.

Is the difference between acceptance of abortion and non-acceptance only the matter of a baby being physically co-located with the mother? That doesn't seem a strong enough rationale.

[lil'mo]

no way scrah, i saw that pic and the child definitely has tard him him

:lmao who's retarded now?


that blank absent minded "nobody's home" look =/


i was holding a french fry in front of his face :lol

[Jekka]

Manny, I used to think that way too, but then someone brought up the point that babies, even independent of the mother physically, are still dependent on the mother (or caregiver) to provide nutrition for them.

Is the difference between acceptance of abortion and non-acceptance only the matter of a baby being physically co-located with the mother? That doesn't seem a strong enough rationale.

But isn't the point that a caregiver or someone besides the mother could give care? Prior to viability, a fetus cannot survive with ANYONE except the mother. At 24 weeks (generally accepted viability in most cases currently), machines and formula could keep a baby alive. At that point, the mother could relinquish parental rights of a child and let someone else take care of him/her. Prior to that, the fetus is not developed enough to survive outside the womb, and is therefore not an independent life (as far as science and semantics go, at any rate).

By your rationale, a child who cannot survive without a caretaker is one that has not yet attained independence, but I think we can generally agree that a 4 year old is an independent life - even if he/she can't survive without a caretaker.

[Jekka]

I support gun control for trees.

The loggers of America thank you for your support.

[easjer]

I can't begin to express the horror I'm feeling. I wish I hadn't read this, I really do.

The only thing I can point out is that through the dead baby community I've met a handful of women who terminated their pregnancies between 24 and 27 weeks, not because of their health (though I know several who had to induce b/c of their health and it was essentially a death sentence). Their babies had such deformities that it was kinder to the babies to terminate earlier when they would not feel any pain because their short lives would be excruciating if carried to term (and none of them were likely to carry to term). I know one mother who ended up carrying to term when they determined after four weeks of back and forth that condition was not treatable and the quality of life would be non-existent only to find they were two days past the termination deadline (though the size of the baby would still have qualified). Those remaining 13 weeks were excruciating and horrifying, knowing the entire time that her baby was going to die a very painful death as soon as she was born.

All of that is to say - late term abortions are not always about denial and murder. Sometimes the testing necessary to determine things isn't complete in time, particularly if there are no early ultrasounds or testing - it's possible to wind up halfway through the pregnancy before finding out your child has severe problems that aren't compatible with life.

ETA - what was going on in that 'clinic' is among the worst things I've ever heard. Ever. That should be prevented at all costs, however it can be prevented.

[lil'mo]

dead baby community? sorry about your miscarriages.

[easjer]

Yeah, that's what we tend to call it. Bit of black humor, I suppose. As most of us have learned, there is no good word for being baby-lost (the more polite term, I guess). People who lose their spouses are widows or widowers, people who lose their parents are orphans. There's no name for those of us who lost our children, particularly that subsection of us who lost babies during or shortly after pregnancy, to stillbirth or during delivery, when we were parents for a very short time. For SFIE and me, it was about 20-30 minutes between Gabe's birth and death. Remembering how it felt to hold him while he died makes this story even more horrifying. To think about what those poor babies may have felt makes me sick.

There are a number of support sites and blogs out there for babylost parents. The one I've been most involved with is www.glowinthewoods.com in case someone out there ever needs that sort of support (or needs to support someone going through that).

[Viva Las Espuelas]

W:wowW<--------Click me (http://articles.philly.com/2011-02-07/news/27105608_1_shore-house-grand-jury-report-investigators)

A pretty graphic depiction of the slaughterhouse this guy was running.