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Winehole23
01-20-2011, 02:23 PM
U.S. Prepares to Lift Ban on Guantánamo Cases

By CHARLIE SAVAGE (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/charlie_savage/index.html?inline=nyt-per)

Published: January 19, 2011

WASHINGTON — The Obama administration is preparing to increase the use of military commissions (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/d/detainees/military_commissions/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) to prosecute Guantánamo (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/guantanamobaynavalbasecuba/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) detainees, an acknowledgment that the prison in Cuba remains open for business after Congress imposed steep new impediments to closing the facility.


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/01/20/us/jp-TRIALS/jp-TRIALS-articleInline.jpg
Pool photo by Brennan Linsley

Charges might be brought within weeks against one or more Guantánamo Bay detainees.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/robert_m_gates/index.html?inline=nyt-per) is expected to soon lift an order blocking the initiation of new cases against detainees, which he imposed on the day of President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per)’s inauguration. That would clear the way for tribunal officials, for the first time under the Obama administration, to initiate new charges against detainees.

Charges would probably then come within weeks against one or more detainees who have already been designated by the Justice Department for prosecution before a military commission, including Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/n/abd_alrahim_al_nashiri/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a Saudi accused of planning the 2000 bombing of the American destroyer Cole in Yemen; Ahmed al-Darbi, a Saudi accused of plotting, in an operation that never came to fruition, to attack oil tankers in the Straits of Hormuz; and Obaydullah, an Afghan accused of concealing bombs.

Preparations for the tribunal trials — including the circulation of new draft regulations for conducting them — were described by several administration officials familiar with the discussions. A spokeswoman for the military commissions system declined to comment.

With the political winds now against more civilian prosecutions of Guantánamo detainees, the plans to press forward with additional commission trials may foreshadow the fates of many of the more than 30 remaining detainees who have been designated for eventual prosecution: trials in Cuba for war crimes before a panel of military officers.

The administration is also preparing an executive order to create a parole board-like system for periodically reviewing the cases of the nearly 50 detainees who would be held without trial.

Any charging of Mr. Nashiri would be particularly significant because the official who oversees the commissions, retired Vice Adm. Bruce MacDonald of the Navy, may allow prosecutors to seek the death penalty against him — which would set up the first capital trial in the tribunal system. The Cole bombing killed 17 sailors.

Mr. Nashiri’s case would also raise unresolved legal questions about jurisdiction and rules of evidence in tribunals. And it would attract global attention because he was previously held in secret Central Intelligence Agency (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/index.html?inline=nyt-org) prisons and is one of three detainees known to have been subjected to the drowning technique known as waterboarding (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/t/torture/waterboarding/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier).

Lt. Cmdr. Stephen Reyes of the Navy, a military lawyer assigned to defend Mr. Nashiri, declined to comment on any movement in the case. But he noted that two of Mr. Nashiri’s alleged co-conspirators were indicted (http://www.justice.gov/archive/ag/speeches/2003/051503agremarksusscole.htm) in federal civilian court in 2003, and he made clear that the defense would highlight Mr. Nashiri’s treatment in C.I.A. custody.

“Nashiri is being prosecuted at the commissions because of the torture issue,” Mr. Reyes said. “Otherwise he would be indicted in New York along with his alleged co-conspirators.”

As a candidate, President Obama criticized the Bush administration’s tribunals. But after taking office, he backed a system in which some cases would tried by revamped military tribunals while others would go before civilian juries. He also pressed to close the Guantánamo prison.

But last month, Congress made it much harder to move Guantánamo detainees into the United States, even for trials in federal civilian courthouses. That essentially shut the door for now on the administration’s proposal to transfer inmates to a prison in Illinois and its desire to prosecute some of them in regular court.

More than a year ago, Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/h/eric_h_holder_jr/index.html?inline=nyt-per) designated Mr. Nashiri, Mr. Darbi and Mr. Obaydullah for trial in a military commission. But they have lingered in limbo amid administration indecision about broader terrorism prosecution policies. The paralysis followed a backlash against Mr. Holder’s proposal to prosecute suspected conspirators in the Sept. 11 attacks in a Manhattan federal courthouse.

Three other detainees were also approved for tribunals by Mr. Holder in 2009. Those cases have progressed — two pleaded guilty last year, and the third is scheduled for trial at Guantánamo next month. But the charges in those cases were left over from the Bush administration.

While Mr. Nashiri and Mr. Darbi had also been charged in tribunals in the Bush administration, their cases were later dropped and must be started over.

The process of charging Mr. Obaydullah had started under the Bush administration, but it was frozen before completion.

Mr. Nashiri would be the first so-called high-value detainee — a senior terrorism suspect who was held for a time in secret C.I.A. prisons and subjected to what the Bush administration called “enhanced interrogation techniques (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/cia_interrogations/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier)” — to undergo trial before a tribunal.

Another former such detainee, Ahmed Ghailani (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/ahmed_khalfan_ghailani/index.html?inline=nyt-per), was convicted in federal civilian court for playing a role in the 1998 Africa embassy bombings.

While Mr. Ghailani faces between 20 years and life in prison, many Republicans have pointed to his acquittal on 284 related charges — and a judge’s decision to exclude an important witness because investigators learned about the man during Mr. Ghailani’s C.I.A. interrogation (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/c/central_intelligence_agency/cia_interrogations/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) — to argue that prosecuting terrorism cases in federal court is too risky.

Mr. Nashiri’s treatment was apparently more extreme than Mr. Ghailani’s. The C.I.A. later destroyed videotapes of some waterboarding sessions.

Moreover, the C.I.A. inspector general called Mr. Nashiri the “most significant” case of a detainee who was brutalized in ways that went beyond the Bush administration’s approved tactics — including being threatened with a power drill. Last year, Polish prosecutors investigating a now-closed C.I.A. prison granted Mr. Nashiri “victim status.”

An effort to prosecute Mr. Nashiri could also put a sharp focus on one of the crucial differences between federal civilian court and military commissions: the admissibility of hearsay evidence — statements and documents collected outside of court.

Much of the evidence (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01cole.html) against Mr. Nashiri consists of witness interviews and documents gathered by the F.B.I. (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/federal_bureau_of_investigation/index.html?inline=nyt-org) in Yemen after the bombing. Prosecutors may call the F.B.I. agents as witnesses to describe what they learned during their investigation — hearsay that would be admissible under tribunal rules, but not in federal court.

It remains unclear whether the Supreme Court (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/s/supreme_court/index.html?inline=nyt-org) would uphold a tribunal conviction that relied on such evidence.

Mr. Nashiri’s case would also test another legal proposition: whether a state of war existed between the United States and Al Qaeda (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/a/al_qaeda/index.html?inline=nyt-org) at the time of the Cole bombing — before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the authorization by Congress to use military force against their perpetrators.

The United States initially handled the Cole attack as a peacetime terrorism crime, but the government now contends that a state of armed conflict had legally existed since 1996, when Osama bin Laden (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/osama_bin_laden/index.html?inline=nyt-per) declared war against the United States.

The question is important because military commissions for war crimes are generally understood to have jurisdiction only over acts that took place during hostilities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/20/us/20trials.html?_r=3&ref=charliesavage

boutons_deux
01-20-2011, 02:46 PM
Miliatary justice is to justice as military music is to music.

The shit that dubya and dickhead committed lives long after they've retired unprosecuted to wealthy comfort.

The wars, GITMO, TSA, MIC enlargement are now out of control of the Exec and Congress, dragging America down spiritually and materially.

coyotes_geek
01-20-2011, 02:46 PM
Obama merely continuing the work of his mentor, W.

LnGrrrR
01-20-2011, 02:49 PM
Obama merely continuing the work of his mentor, W.

Very true. Very sad.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 02:51 PM
As a candidate, President Obama criticized the Bush administration’s tribunals. But after taking office, he backed a system in which some cases would tried by revamped military tribunals while others would go before civilian juries. He also pressed to close the Guantánamo prison.

But last month, Congress made it much harder to move Guantánamo detainees into the United States, even for trials in federal civilian courthouses. That essentially shut the door for now on the administration’s proposal to transfer inmates to a prison in Illinois and its desire to prosecute some of them in regular court. Why are people so eager to keep Gitmo open?

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 02:58 PM
Processing detainees outside the criminal court system and continuing to hold them indefinitely, right off the bat.

Also, it's expedient to have an alternate venue with lesser standards for due process and evidence for especially tough, or politically sensitive cases like this one.

jack sommerset
01-20-2011, 02:58 PM
The promise that keeps on breaken. My take never has changed. You spend all that money on a prision, you use it. All that political rhetoric that gitmo staying open helps recruit terroist is/was bullshit.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 03:00 PM
Clearly, the US prefers not to try Nashiri in open court. We have a multi-tiered system of justice now, so we needn't.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 03:01 PM
Processing detainees outside the criminal court system and continuing to hold them indefinitely, right off the bat.

Also, it's expedient to have an alternate venue with lesser standards for due process and evidence for especially tough, or politically sensitive cases like this one.We do these things not because they are hard, but because they are easier.

boutons_deux
01-20-2011, 03:06 PM
Has everybody forgotten how loudly and longly the Repugs sqealed and whined about closing GITMO and moving untried/uncharged "terrorists", whose minds have been tortured to mush, to a US prison?

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 03:06 PM
We do these things not because they are hard, but because they are easier.Fuck tradition. Fuck morality. Expedience is God.

coyotes_geek
01-20-2011, 03:11 PM
Has everybody forgotten how loudly and longly the Repugs sqealed and whined about closing GITMO and moving untried/uncharged "terrorists", whose minds have been tortured to mush, to a US prison?

No. In fact, it's becoming increasingly apparent that Obama agreed with them all along. Gitmo has never been anything more than a talking point.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 03:18 PM
Gitmo has never been anything more than a talking point.Disagree. Appears to be more of a crutch than a talking point by now.

TeyshaBlue
01-20-2011, 03:59 PM
Miliatary justice is to justice as military music is to music.


John Phillips Sousa waves his testicles at you.:lol

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 06:44 PM
Very true. Very sad.
Very necessary.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 06:59 PM
Very necessary.Why is it necessary?

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 08:11 PM
How Many Real Rubes Were There? (http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/19200.html)


Instapundit says that another rube self-indentifies (http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/113473/) when linking to a piece about Glenn Greenwald’s anguish over discovering that Obama has endorsed and legitimized most of Bush’s War on Terror policies.

For myself, I wonder how many “rubes” were really out there, especially in the ranks of the big leftwing players. Did Obama and other major leftists ever truly think that Bush’s policies were unnecessary or did they just adopt a position of opposition to differentiate themselves in the political marketplace? Did any of these people oppose Bush’s policies on principle after careful study or did they just see hysterical criticism of Bush as a useful political tool they could use for selfish purposes?

I think it pretty clear that for most leftists, opposition to Bush’s policies was nothing more than cynical, political opportunism.

Indeed

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 08:16 PM
Indeed, once the US started torturing suspects, it became necessary to circumvent the legal system that frowns upon that sort of thing.

Two wrongs have to make a right!

ElNono
01-20-2011, 08:18 PM
About time.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 10:34 PM
About time what?

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 10:36 PM
About time what?
'Bout time Obama got a clue; that's what.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:38 PM
About time what?

About time they get tried.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 10:40 PM
Go play with yourself Yoni. Grown folks talkin.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:40 PM
Oops, I missed it's not going to be in the Justice or Military courts. :td

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 10:41 PM
About time they get tried.Yeah, well I guess some hearing is better than none at all. It's very irregular.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:41 PM
I thought they finally would get a fair trial... Oh well... at least if this gets the cases moving again they can maybe appeal to the justice system, much like what happened in the Habeas cases.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:42 PM
Last time a Military commission judge had to rule, it backfired.

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 10:42 PM
Try 'em and fry 'em.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 10:47 PM
In principle there's no rational limit to the scandalization of the national conscience.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:50 PM
Try 'em and fry 'em.

This is the kind of people Palin appeals to, I would guess... smh

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 10:52 PM
I didn't know Palin was in favor of fair trials for terrorists.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 10:58 PM
I didn't know Palin was in favor of fair trials for terrorists.

I'm talking about the expediency. The 'trial' is a mere formality that preludes the frying part.

Winehole23
01-20-2011, 11:00 PM
(Too slow, wino!)

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:00 PM
I'm talking about the expediency. The 'trial' is a mere formality that preludes the frying part.
Actually, I think it was the President's spokesperson that suggested they'd be tried and executed. Well, Khalid Sheik Mohammed...but, it's a start.

Hey, I'm liking the way Obama is turning on this issue. I stand behind the idea expressed by Robert Gibbs.

There you go, blood libeling Sarah Palin again. I don't know that she ever suggested "trying and frying," but, Gibbs damn sure did.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:01 PM
Actually, I think it was the President's spokesperson that suggested they'd be tried and executed. Well, Khalid Sheik Mohammed...but, it's a start.

Hey, I'm liking the way Obama is turning on this issue. I stand behind the idea expressed by Robert Gibbs.

Surprised you didn't think Ayers had a hand in this...
But Obama has been a complete turd on this. So it makes sense you actually side with him.

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:03 PM
Surprised you didn't think Ayers had a hand in this...
But Obama has been a complete turd on this. So it makes sense you actually side with him.
I think you owe Palin an apology.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:03 PM
I have no problem telling anybody that wants to hear that Palin is as dumb as they come. This is exactly why I was saying earlier in the other thread: "We'll see who runs in 2012"...

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:06 PM
I think you owe Palin an apology.

Uh?

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:11 PM
Uh?
I didn't misspell anything, did I?

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 11:13 PM
yoni is serious.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:16 PM
An apology for what? She's on the record that the prisoners in Gitmo do not deserve access to the justice system (despite omitting that Bush tried the shoe bomber successfully that way).

She's for expedited try 'em and fry 'em.

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:18 PM
An apology for what? She's on the record that the prisoners in Gitmo do not deserve access to the justice system (despite omitting that Bush tried the shoe bomber successfully that way).

She's for expedited try 'em and fry 'em.
You're going to have to produce the "fry 'em" part to pin that on her. I can post video of Gibbs saying it.

Once again, you've got this narrative you have to follow.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:23 PM
You're going to have to produce the "fry 'em" part to pin that on her. I can post video of Gibbs saying it.

Once again, you've got this narrative you have to follow.

It doesn't matter if they fry 'em, inject 'em, or lock 'em and throw the key.
It's not the outcome that's the problem, it's the process.

You could have the same outcome under established systems of justice that provide for a fair trial. Again, you can keep harping on the outcome, my concern is with the process to get there.

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:27 PM
It doesn't matter if they fry 'em, inject 'em, or lock 'em and throw the key.
It's not the outcome that's the problem, it's the process.

You could have the same outcome under established systems of justice that provide for a fair trial. Again, you can keep harping on the outcome, my concern is with the process to get there.
The process for trying and disposing of combatant cases has been fine until this war. And, now Obama is seeing what Bush saw and, he's agreeing.

Good on him.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 11:29 PM
The process for trying and disposing of combatant cases has been fine until this war. And, now Obama is seeing what Bush saw and, he's agreeing.

Good on him.Except Bush tried terrorists in Federal court.

And got convictions.

Why do you hate the American justice system?

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:30 PM
The process for trying and disposing of combatant cases has been fine until this war. And, now Obama is seeing what Bush saw and, he's agreeing.

Good on him.

You mean the federal process? Because most of the released prisoners were never actually tried. And those still in there are still waiting.

Yonivore
01-20-2011, 11:31 PM
You mean the federal process? Because most of the released prisoners were never actually tried. And those still in there are still waiting.
If it hadn't been for liberal whining none of them would have been released and tribunals would have commenced a long time ago.

ChumpDumper
01-20-2011, 11:34 PM
If it hadn't been for liberal whining none of them would have been releasedWell thank God for liberal whining. Detaining people in error was wrong.

ElNono
01-20-2011, 11:41 PM
If it hadn't been for liberal whining none of them would have been released and tribunals would have commenced a long time ago.

The tribunals commenced and at least two cases were dismissed because the judge ruled that the accused were not properly determined to be under their jurisdiction.

This is what happens when you try to put a hack job in place of real justice. It backfires. So, the liberal whining had nothing to do with it. The lack of actual evidence did.

I bet Glenn Beck didn't explain it like that.

Winehole23
01-21-2011, 03:55 AM
It sounds much worse when you quantify the rate of failure: the US is losing 2/3 habeas cases 50 cases in.

That means judges have determined the USG had insufficient evidence to detain in the first place, in 2/3 of the reviewed cases.

Winehole23
01-21-2011, 04:10 AM
The process for trying and disposing of combatant cases has been fine until this war.The criminal system still works. It was good enough for Ghailani, who was recently found guilty and sentenced in the routine way.

Obama's predecessor did not decline to keep prosecuting terrorists in the pre 9/11 way. Why should we?

coyotes_geek
01-21-2011, 12:15 PM
I thought they finally would get a fair trial... Oh well... at least if this gets the cases moving again they can maybe appeal to the justice system, much like what happened in the Habeas cases.

Doesn't matter if they get a fair trial or not. The Obama administration has already asserted they have the right to continue detaining them even if they're acquitted.

ElNono
01-21-2011, 12:43 PM
Doesn't matter if they get a fair trial or not. The Obama administration has already asserted they have the right to continue detaining them even if they're acquitted.

What they say and do are two different things. Originally they said they wouldn't have access to habeas, and once a judge ruled they would, they had to cave. When the discussion shifts from administration-defendant to administration-judicial, that's where the bluffs normally end. As they should.