PDA

View Full Version : Current Spurs team only beaten by 03 Spurs champs



Jimcs50
01-20-2011, 09:26 PM
Of the 4 Spurs championship teams, only the 2003 team could beat the current Spurs team in a series, according to computer simulation.


For what seemed like the fifth straight preseason, critics claimed the San Antonio Spurs were going the way of the dodo. But for once, this theory appeared to be coming to fruition. The Spurs were coming off the business end of a 4-0 sweep at the hands of the Phoenix Suns in May. Geriatrics like Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Antonio McDyess were set to have major roles in '10-11 without ample backup to alleviate their minutes. There was speculation that free agent to-be Tony Parker would test the market for greener pastures after the season. Richard Jefferson was underwhelming in his first year in silver and black, posting his lowest scoring average since the '01-02 season. Making matters worse, Western Conference powers Los Angeles and Dallas bolstered their rosters in the offseason, and upstart Oklahoma City appeared ready to challenge for a title. A last stand at the Alamo, indeed.

So it's apropos that at the halfway mark of the season, San Antonio has the best record in the league at 36-6. To put that in perspective, the Spurs are on pace to hit 70 wins, a feat accomplished by only one other team in NBA history ('95-96 Bulls). The Spurs have been benefactors from a bill of good health, as coach Gregg Popovich has rolled out the same starting lineup every game this season. Ginobili has reverted to his '07-08 form, averaging 18.9 points and 4.7 assists a game. Parker, who signed a contract extension in late October, is on pace for a career high in assists and steals. Jefferson has unexpectedly become a long-range assassin, shooting a career-best 42.4 percent behind the arc. To help limit his minutes and maximize his efficiency, McDyess has been coming off the bench, a move that has helped second-year forward DeJuan Blair gain more experience.

Saints and Winners
The 2010-11 Spurs are on pace for 70 wins. A huge catalyst for the Spurs' success has been the play of the bench. Thought to be the Achilles' heel, the "secondary Spurs" have proved to be one of the best second units in the league. Guard George Hill has provided scoring when Ginobili and Parker need a breather, and Matt Bonner is second in the league in three-point field goal percentage with a ridiculous mark of 50.4 percent. After a three-year stint in Europe, rookie Gary Neal finally found his way to the NBA and has become one of the league's first-half surprises, chipping in 8.7 points a game. And while Tiago Splitter has underwhelmed thus far, the Brazilian big man has shown glimpses of greatness despite dealing with a few bumps and bruises.

And then there is the great Tim Duncan. The Big Fundamental will finish his career as the best power forward in the history of the league, but the stoic Spur is clearly near the end of the proverbial road. Duncan's first-step and quickness are almost non-existent, and while never considered a "skywalker" the Wake Forest product seems more rooted to the ground than years past. This sentiment, added with the element that Pop has limited his forward's minutes to preserve him for the playoffs, has correlated to career lows in points (13.7) and boards (9.5) for Duncan.

Yet don't let modest figures minimalize the 12-time All-Star's contributions to San Antonio's start. With his physical talents diminishing, Duncan has relied on his superior court IQ and sound fundamentals to maximize his performance, as well as that of the team. His average of 2 blocks per game are the most since the '06-07 campaign and his defensive presence is a major reason the Spurs own the league's best point differential at +8. Furthermore, Duncan is still capable of the occasional scoring outburst, notching 18 or more points 10 times this season.

With San Antonio's splendid start forcing detractors to overhaul their preseason predictions, we thought it would be fitting to simulate this Spurs team against the other four championship squads of the Duncan Era. We pitted the '10-11 version of the Spurs against their historical counterparts 251 times, and here are the results:

1998-99 Spurs
The 1998-99 Spurs owned the best record in the league with a 37-13 mark (this season was shortened to a 50-game schedule due to a lockout). Duncan posted averages of 19.9 points, 10.5 rebounds and 2.3 blocks, earning All-NBA First Team honors in the process. David Robinson started to show signs of decline, but still averaged 15.8 points and 10 boards. The dynamic duo of Duncan and Robinson bulldozed through the playoffs, going 15-2 including a 4-1 Finals win over the New York Knicks.

If there is any condemnation to be made on this squad, it was the lack of peripheral landscape given to the All-Star big men. Sean Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ and Avery Johnson were solid starters, but the cupboard was pretty bare for the '99 Spurs. This could explain why the '11 Spurs won this matchup 51.43 percent of the time. Young Duncan took his sage-like self to town, averaging 26 points and 13 rebounds in the series. But the '99 Spurs could not counter the production of Parker and Ginobili, who combined for nearly 44 points per contest. The '11 bench outperformed their '99 adversaries, outscoring the second unit by an average of 32 to 23.

NBA Simulation Results
Matchup Win% Avg Score
2011 Spurs 51.4335 104.078
@ 1999 Spurs 48.5665 101.098


2002-03 Spurs
This was perhaps Duncan's finest individual season, garnering his second straight MVP award with averages of 23.3 points, 12.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists and 2.9 blocks. He also submitted one of the greatest Finals performances of all-time with 21 points, 20 boards, 10 assists and eight blocks to clinch the series victory for the Spurs over the New Jersey Nets in Game 6. Parker began to come into his own, averaging 15.5 points and 5.3 assists in a starting role. Ginobili arrived from the Euroleague during the '02-03 season, and despite a slow start, became an integral part in the playoff rotation. The Spurs received additional help from a young swingman named Stephen Jackson, whose offense penalized opponents for focusing on Duncan and Parker. This year also marked the swan song for the Admiral, who retired after 14 seasons, all with San Antonio.

Robinson's ride into the sunset must have given the '03 Spurs the emotional edge as they defeated the '11 squad 54.08 percent of the time by an average score of 102 to 99. Present day TD could not keep up with his past, as the 27-year-old Duncan averaged 28 and 15 to pace the '03 Spurs to triumph. Jackson was vital with 16 points and two steals per game, and Robinson chipped in with 9 points and 9 boards per contest.

NBA Simulation Results
Matchup Win% Avg Score
2011 Spurs 45.9183 99.451
@ 2003 Spurs 54.0817 102.431


2004-05 Spurs
This team is remembered for two things: 1) Robert Horry adding to his "Big Shot Rob" legacy with 21 points in the fourth quarter and overtime, including the game-winning shot, in Game 5 of the Finals and 2) Participating in one of the more boring Finals ever conducted (although the series went seven games, four of the contests were blowouts). The trio of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker turned in All-Star caliber years; former journeyman Bruce Bowen had transformed into of the NBA's elite defenders; Brent Barry and Horry gave San Antonio a solid presence off the bench.

But despite this firepower, the '11 Spurs come out on top in a nail biter, winning 50.42 percent of the time by an average margin 105 to 100. Neal and Hill were the difference in the series, as the two averaged a combined 28 points per game. In keeping with the trend of our simulations, the younger of the two TDs prevailed, as '05 Duncan finished the series with a 24-12 average, compared to the elder Duncan's 14-8.

NBA Simulation Results
Matchup Win% Avg Score
2011 Spurs 50.4218 105.151
@ 2005 Spurs 49.5782 100.032


2006-07 Spurs
The '07 roster had little overhaul from the '05 team, save for the addition of scoring presence Michael Finley and big men Fabricio Oberto and Francisco Elson. While the '07 Spurs swept the Cavs to give Duncan his fourth title, this season has somewhat of an asterisk next to it thanks to the proceedings during the Conference Semifinals against the Suns. In the closing moments of Game 4, Horry clobbered Steve Nash into the scorers' table. Amar'e Stoudemire and Boris Diaw left the bench area as this occurred, and although they did not participate in the ensuing squabble, both earned one-game suspensions for Game 5. Without any frontcourt presence, the Suns lost Game 5, and ultimately the series in Game 6. Additionally, Game 3 featured a plethora of shaky calls, most which seemed to favor San Antonio.

There's no controversy in our simulation engine's result, as the '11 edition wiped the floor with the '07 Spurs, winning 66.25 percent of the matchups. For the first time, '11 Duncan held his own against, well, himself, averaging 15 points and 10 rebounds. Hill and Neal again proved to be menaces, pouring in 27 points a game, and '11 Ginobili added averages of 19 points and 5 assists.

NBA Simulation Results
Matchup Win% Avg Score
2011 Spurs 66.2487 104.078
@ 2007 Spurs 33.7513 101.098


The '11 Spurs still have an arduous road ahead to claim the championship crown. But as our simulation illustrated, they have more than enough ammunition in their arsenal to compete with their historical contemporaries.

cutewizard
01-20-2011, 09:45 PM
Ah this is cool!

Would you make simulations against the current elite teams?

Thanks!

Sense
01-20-2011, 09:55 PM
is there a link to this?

Jimcs50
01-20-2011, 10:07 PM
is there a link to this?


Yes this is What If Sports

http://www.whatifsports.com/locker/lockerroom.asp

Sec24Row7
01-21-2011, 09:16 AM
lol yet again someone using the big * on ANOTHER year...

lololol

Cry Havoc
01-21-2011, 09:31 AM
And yet I'm almost certain that the 2003 Spurs were the weakest of the 4 championship teams.

Blake
01-21-2011, 10:03 AM
And yet I'm almost certain that the 2003 Spurs were the weakest of the 4 championship teams.

That was the year they took out the defending champ Lakers and it was probably Duncan's best year as a pro, so it depends on what your definition of team is.

imo,

1. 2003
2. 2005
3. 1999
4. 2007

I think this year's team is better than the 2007 and 1999 squad, but I have a hard time believing that they would beat the 03, 05 and maybe even the 06 teams.

lefty
01-21-2011, 10:05 AM
2003: most talented
2005: best overall; perfect balance of offense and defense, stars and role players
2007: toughest, meanest, craftiest Spurs team; grind in and out team that beat the odds (too old, unathletic....)
1999: *

Blake
01-21-2011, 10:06 AM
2003: most talented

I forgot how stacked they were.

They were stacked.

urunobili
01-21-2011, 10:08 AM
the 05 team would have lunch with this TD and Blair Frontcourt tbh. Also, Manu was sickest then. so me disagrees.

The_Worlds_finest
01-21-2011, 10:08 AM
This is cool, but lets not go put the horse before the cart

Blake
01-21-2011, 10:10 AM
This is cool, but lets not go put the horse before the cart

so you'd rather put the cart in front of the horse?

k.

The_Worlds_finest
01-21-2011, 10:20 AM
so you'd rather put the cart in front of the horse?

k.

Check out the Brain on Blake, The thread board grammar police!

Jose Ole
01-21-2011, 10:21 AM
If there is any condemnation to be made on this squad, it was the lack of peripheral landscape given to the All-Star big men. Sean Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ and Avery Johnson were solid starters, but the cupboard was pretty bare for the '99 Spurs.

Interesting read but it seems like no one can spell Sean's name right...

sa_butta
01-21-2011, 10:29 AM
Interesting read but it seems like no one can spell Sean's name right...
That reminds me of a game earlier this year when Sean corrected a fan holding a sign. "Thats two T's" and proceeded to draw an extra T on the screen.:lol

Blake
01-21-2011, 10:48 AM
Check out the Brain on Blake, The thread board grammar police!

I'm not doing any policing.

Feel free to fail.

nkdlunch
01-21-2011, 01:51 PM
03 - most dangerous team

young run n gun SJAX + Manu, plus vintage Duncan, plus legendary DRob

The Truth #6
01-21-2011, 02:03 PM
That was the year they took out the defending champ Lakers and it was probably Duncan's best year as a pro, so it depends on what your definition of team is.

imo,

1. 2003
2. 2005
3. 1999
4. 2007

I think this year's team is better than the 2007 and 1999 squad, but I have a hard time believing that they would beat the 03, 05 and maybe even the 06 teams.


To me the 2003 team was the weakest, by far, because they took every playoff round to 6 games. They had talent but the team wasn't completely mature yet as a whole.

I think the 1999 team was by far the most dominant, though not the prettiest or versatile.

It's fun comparing though. Everyone has their favorites.

Seventyniner
01-21-2011, 02:06 PM
I forgot how stacked they were.

They were stacked.

Stacked with names, sure. But most of those were either still green (Parker, Ginobili, Jax) or at the end of their career (Robinson, Willis). Still the weakest of the 4 title teams.

Blake
01-21-2011, 03:16 PM
Stacked with names, sure. But most of those were either still green (Parker, Ginobili, Jax) or at the end of their career (Robinson, Willis). Still the weakest of the 4 title teams.

Wow......people really do forget just how deep that roster was....

starters:

Tim, David, Tony, SJax, and Bowen

reserves:

Manu, Malik, Speedy, Ferry, Willis, Kerr and even Steve Smith.

this team had to go through a feisty Suns team, the defending champ Lakers with Kobe and Shaq, and then the 60 win Mavs with Dirk and Nash before beating runner-up MVP candidate Kidd in his prime....


tbh, I think it's prime Bowen that makes the difference for me in ranking this team #1 over the others.

LoneStarState'sPride
01-21-2011, 03:20 PM
All time fave was the '05 team--they could beat you no matter what style you wanted to play. Manu was sick, Tony was a nightmare nobody could contain when he was on, Timmy was Timmy, and you had the lockdown D of Bruce and the clutchness of Horry. That team simply did not give a fuck what you did--they'd take your game and use it against you.

The '03 team WAS the most talented, imho, but they hadn't figured out how to utilize their talent yet. I remember that team more than any of the other title teams because of their maddening propensity to blow comfortable leads late in games. Remember the Horry shot that rattled out? Spurs were up 25 points in that game and should have won going away. Game 1 against the Mavs in the WCF? Same story, Finley leads the mavs back from being down 17. I know the '03 team wasn't the only one to blow leads on a regular basis, but had they not been so stacked with pure talent, that team wasn't nearly mature enough to match up with the other title teams from top to bottom.

Blake
01-21-2011, 04:16 PM
Remember the Horry shot that rattled out? Spurs were up 25 points in that game and should have won going away.

yup.....that could have been as deadly for the Spurs as the .4 shot had it gone in.

but the Lakers still had game 6 back at home and I think they were pretty confident that they were going to win that one and force a game 7.

Instead, Timmy came in to LA and flat out destroyed them almost singlehandedly.

rR6AgYWdoBQ

:cry Kobe :cry

lefty
01-21-2011, 05:46 PM
yup.....that could have been as deadly for the Spurs as the .4 shot had it gone in.

but the Lakers still had game 6 back at home and I think they were pretty confident that they were going to win that one and force a game 7.

Instead, Timmy came in to LA and flat out destroyed them almost singlehandedly.

rR6AgYWdoBQ

:cry Kobe :cry
Duncan was unreal in that game

FkLA
01-21-2011, 06:15 PM
Yall serious? 03' was without a doubt the weakest team of the four.

Parker-2nd yr, consistantly was being pulled in favor of Speedy Claxton in 4th qtrs.
Manu-rook, still very erratic and inconsistant.
SJax-journeyman with very little experience, was still prone to bad shot selection and stupid turnovers.
DRob-shell of his former self, falling apart.

That title was all Tim Duncan, that yr is enough to prove that he was this past decade's best player...he carried a pretty average team on his back literally. IMHO:

1.99'
2.05'
3.07'
4.03'

Martin R
01-21-2011, 06:19 PM
this is GREAT!!! thanks for posting.

Take a look at this simulation :

95-96 Chicago Bulls : 91 at 02-03 San Antonio Spurs : 111
02-03 San Antonio Spurs : 102 at 95-96 Chicago Bulls : 113

and this !!!!

04-05 San Antonio Spurs : 106 at 95-96 Chicago Bulls : 87

ALVAREZ6
01-21-2011, 06:27 PM
the 05 team would have lunch with this TD and Blair Frontcourt tbh. Also, Manu was sickest then. so me disagrees.

I think Manu is more effective now, these past 2 seasons, then in 05. He's not as athletic, but IMO his overall game is better. Manu was a boss in the 2005 playoffs though, in all 4 series, he dominated.

100%duncan
01-22-2011, 02:52 AM
this is a long one. great read

HarlemHeat37
01-22-2011, 03:15 AM
It depends how you look at it..the league is a lot tougher right now than it was back then, due to the collusion involving the Lakers + the Celtics' trade + superstar players joining together..so this Spurs team is deeper than any Spurs team other than maybe 2003, but it's also necessary due to the current state of the NBA..

The 2003 team was very stacked, but it was a team with the best player in the NBA at his peak, surrounded with role players..obviously Parker, Ginobili, Robinson and Jackson were far from their actual peaks/primes, they were far from star players at that point..

Also, even though the 2003 team was my favorite, they had the weakest competition of any of the Spurs' title teams, other than 2007..

The 2005 team was the most underrated and the best of the big 3 era..not only were they stacked, not only was it prime Duncan(even with the injury) + when Manu/TP were All-Star players, but their path to the title was very impressive..they consecutively knocked off 2 60-win caliber teams that played completely different styles of basketball, obviously a tough task for any team..

TDMVPDPOY
01-22-2011, 03:18 AM
the talent on that roster if were in the prime we be talkin unstoppable

indeed it was unstoppable, just look at the 05 squad was the ROI from the rebuilding stages early in 02/03 season summer...

howbouthemspurs
01-22-2011, 01:36 PM
I would put the current team ahead of any other team in the past decade!

Spurs Brazil
01-22-2011, 02:18 PM
Eastern Conference scout on the Spurs' 70-win pace:

"I can't see Pop [Spurs coach Gregg Popovich] spending two minutes worrying about 70 wins, but they've never been more fun to watch. They've just got five guys playing basketball. They're the best passing team in basketball. They're shooting lights out. They're so much more high octane than they used to be.

"Everybody shares the ball and Tim [Duncan] just gets his stuff out of flow instead of [the Spurs] just calling '4 Down' and '4 Up' every time down and pounding the ball into him. The Spurs win championships when Manu's healthy and they make 3s and that's what they've been doing all year. I think Boston, in a series, beats everybody in the East. But I really like San Antonio."

http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110121-23/nba-scouts-saying

ajh18
01-22-2011, 02:47 PM
Anyone who thinks the Lakers's size poses a threat to the Spurs this year has to concede that the 99 Spurs would have posed an even greater threat on the length front.

Robinson was consciously taking a step back offensively, but was still near his prime. Duncan was entering his. I'd argue those two were better offensively than any combination the Lakers have up there today, and MUCH better defensively. It's two of the all-time great post defenders side by side, near their peaks. I remember that team making opponents just give up on driving and settle for midrange jumpers.

As for the 03 Spurs... you know the big men we worry about going off against us this year? The Love's, Griffins, Howards of the world? Duncan was SIGNIFICANTLY better than them in 2003. There is no player in the league today that could hang with Tim Duncan that year.

Hemotivo
01-22-2011, 02:51 PM
simulation sucks

SpursNextRomanEmpire
01-22-2011, 03:06 PM
yup.....that could have been as deadly for the Spurs as the .4 shot had it gone in.

but the Lakers still had game 6 back at home and I think they were pretty confident that they were going to win that one and force a game 7.

Instead, Timmy came in to LA and flat out destroyed them almost singlehandedly.

rR6AgYWdoBQ

:cry Kobe :cry

Love this video, amazing performance.

Martin R
01-25-2011, 09:28 PM
simulation sucks

great story, bro....