and the top ranked center in the West by Hollinger

[Rummpd]

Is none other than Tim Duncan (whom Hollinger has consistently rated a center) and he is 3rd overall in the NBA in his viewpoint by his beloved PER measure at that position, making him a valid pick IMO to take the West centerspot in place of Yao.

Interestingly the Spurs also have 3 top 25 players among all NBA players and are the only NBA team to have so using PER: Duncan is 22nd, Parker 25th and Manu at 17th and no other NBA team has three in the top 25 (Heat and Lakers to be fair have two in the top ten with the Heat having Wade and James both in the top 3 but Bosh down at 36 and LAL have Kobe at 5 and Gasol at 10 and Odom at 30 - interestingly Boston has no one higher than Garnett at 23rd and Pierce at 28th the Mavs have only Dirk at 6 and Chandler is way down the ratings at 53rd.).

Many statistical experts believe that PER is a pretty good "starting point" assessment of a players value (although it is certainly not perfect with limitations especially on the value of defensive contributions and other intangibles and Hollinger tries to address that in EWA (earned win average) where again Spurs have Duncan, Manu and Parker all rating in the top 25. again the only NBA team with that many stars in the top 25.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=VORPe&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fsort%3dVORPe





Although the Spurs deep bench and role players have certainly contributed to the Spurs unreal start of the season, at least the PER and EWA show that the big three are still pretty stout and top tier NBA talents. The true Big Three still provide the base for the Spurs credible championship aspirations and Holllinger's metrics support all 3 for strong all star consideration.

(To be fair at least based on either PER or EWA it would be hard to keep Love or Blake off the all star game either IMO.)


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=c&league=west&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fposition%3dc%26league% 3dwest

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=c&league=west&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fposition%3dc%26league% 3dwest


http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?position=c&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fhollinger%2fstatistics%3fposition%3dc

[honestfool84]

:tu

Spurs proving that they don't need "superstars" to win.

[Seventyniner]

The league should step in and name Duncan as Yao's replacement as starting center for the All-Star game. Let Timmy whine about it, but he should be a starter.

[DMC]

I don't like Hollinger's methods. I don't suddenly change my mind because he picks someone I like.

[MannyIsGod]

:tu

Spurs proving that they don't need "superstars" to win.

WTF? Duncan is most definitely a superstar.

[DMC]

WTF? Duncan is most definitely a superstar.

Tim is a HOFer, he's acknowledged as one of the best to ever play the game by experts everywhere. At the same time, he's ignored by the same people when time comes to list their 5 man roster off all the people to ever play. They don't do it intentionally, Tim just slips their mind.

Superstars don't slip the minds of journalists and pundits. Superstars aren't necessarily HOFers. I doubt Anthony would be a HOFer if he retired today, but he's a superstar right now.

Tim is not a superstar, not in the context that was being used.

[YoMamaIsCallin]

Also, Timmy, not really giving even a small crap about All-Star games, never asserts himself when playing there. He treats it kind of like a scrimmage where the coach is working with and trying to feature other players. Therefore the All-Star voters (both fans and players) don't remember him as "ah he really brought something to the game last year, let's vote for him".

[MannyIsGod]

Tim is a HOFer, he's acknowledged as one of the best to ever play the game by experts everywhere. At the same time, he's ignored by the same people when time comes to list their 5 man roster off all the people to ever play. They don't do it intentionally, Tim just slips their mind.

Superstars don't slip the minds of journalists and pundits. Superstars aren't necessarily HOFers. I doubt Anthony would be a HOFer if he retired today, but he's a superstar right now.

Tim is not a superstar, not in the context that was being used.

Tim Duncan is a superstar. He's not being used nearly as much this year but that doesn't mean he's not a superstar in this league and that they Spurs don't need him the way every other team needs their superstar.

If Tim Duncan were to go down for the season at this moment with a season ending injury the Spurs hopes at a championship would go down with him. The Spurs need him just as much as any other team needs their Superstar.

[lefty]

ROY
2 time MVP
5 time NBA champion

[Werdsniper2]

I just don't picture Duncan as a center. I know he's been playing the position all year, but I still see him as a PF.

[DMC]

Tim Duncan is a superstar. He's not being used nearly as much this year but that doesn't mean he's not a superstar in this league and that they Spurs don't need him the way every other team needs their superstar.

You are creating your own definition for the term "superstar" and arguing from that definition.

We could say some 5 year old kid is a superstar if we qualify it with "in his mom's eyes". Tim is not a superstar because he doesn't command superstar media attention. Just because he's the best player on the team doesn't mean he's reached super stardom. Any movie deals? Any ESPN shows about his decisions? Any reality shows? Any commercials besides HEB?

Tim doesn't want to be a superstar. He could have been one for years if he wanted to be.

Sorry, but Tim is not a superstar in the sense that Kobe, Wade and LeBron are superstars. It's not about what they've accomplished, Lebron's accomplished jack shit, but how they are perceived by the average person.

You could pass a picture of Timmy around and most people wouldn't know who it was. Do that with Kobe, Lebron or Wade. It wouldn't be like MJ, but Kobe would be close with Lebron a close 2nd.

It's not about your opinion.


If Tim Duncan were to go down for the season at this moment with a season ending injury the Spurs hopes at a championship would go down with him. The Spurs need him just as much as any other team needs their
Superstar.That means Tim is really really needed by this franchise. It doesn't mean he's a superstar.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/338336-top-current-basketball-franchise-players#page/7

[ChuckD]

The league should step in and name Duncan as Yao's replacement as starting center for the All-Star game. Let Timmy whine about it, but he should be a starter.
If the coaches don't vote him as a reserve, he'll likely get Yao's roster spot, but I doubt they'll start someone who is a league pick.

[MannyIsGod]

You are creating your own definition for the term "superstar" and arguing from that definition.

We could say some 5 year old kid is a superstar if we qualify it with "in his mom's eyes". Tim is not a superstar because he doesn't command superstar media attention. Just because he's the best player on the team doesn't mean he's reached super stardom. Any movie deals? Any ESPN shows about his decisions? Any reality shows? Any commercials besides HEB?

Tim doesn't want to be a superstar. He could have been one for years if he wanted to be.

Sorry, but Tim is not a superstar in the sense that Kobe, Wade and LeBron are superstars. It's not about what they've accomplished, Lebron's accomplished jack shit, but how they are perceived by the average person.

You could pass a picture of Timmy around and most people wouldn't know who it was. Do that with Kobe, Lebron or Wade. It wouldn't be like MJ, but Kobe would be close with Lebron a close 2nd.

It's not about your opinion.
That means Tim is really really needed by this franchise. It doesn't mean he's a superstar.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/338336-top-current-basketball-franchise-players#page/7

This is some of the most retarded drivel I've ever had to read on this forum.

Its about the context of the post I replied to, not about the ridiculous shit you're listing there. In any event, saying that Duncan is anything other than a superstar is simply a completely retarded stance to take.

Here is a bit of proof Tim Duncan's mother (RIP) would not be the only one considering him a superstar.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=tim+duncan+superstar

[MannyIsGod]

You are creating your own definition for the term "superstar" and arguing from that definition.

We could say some 5 year old kid is a superstar if we qualify it with "in his mom's eyes". Tim is not a superstar because he doesn't command superstar media attention. Just because he's the best player on the team doesn't mean he's reached super stardom. Any movie deals? Any ESPN shows about his decisions? Any reality shows? Any commercials besides HEB?

Tim doesn't want to be a superstar. He could have been one for years if he wanted to be.

Sorry, but Tim is not a superstar in the sense that Kobe, Wade and LeBron are superstars. It's not about what they've accomplished, Lebron's accomplished jack shit, but how they are perceived by the average person.

You could pass a picture of Timmy around and most people wouldn't know who it was. Do that with Kobe, Lebron or Wade. It wouldn't be like MJ, but Kobe would be close with Lebron a close 2nd.

It's not about your opinion.
That means Tim is really really needed by this franchise. It doesn't mean he's a superstar.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/338336-top-current-basketball-franchise-players#page/7


And I just had to actually LOL when I read those two statements in close succession.

[Bito Corleone]

Tim's played PF all year...lol. DJB's our starting center. They call Tim that because he's been our jump-ballsman ever since David retired.

Actually Tim has been playing Center, even if people still want to call him a PF. Watch Pop's play calls from time to time... "4 down" has turned to "5 down" this season.

[Bito Corleone]

You are creating your own definition for the term "superstar" and arguing from that definition.

We could say some 5 year old kid is a superstar if we qualify it with "in his mom's eyes". Tim is not a superstar because he doesn't command superstar media attention. Just because he's the best player on the team doesn't mean he's reached super stardom. Any movie deals? Any ESPN shows about his decisions? Any reality shows? Any commercials besides HEB?

Tim doesn't want to be a superstar. He could have been one for years if he wanted to be.

Sorry, but Tim is not a superstar in the sense that Kobe, Wade and LeBron are superstars. It's not about what they've accomplished, Lebron's accomplished jack shit, but how they are perceived by the average person.

You could pass a picture of Timmy around and most people wouldn't know who it was. Do that with Kobe, Lebron or Wade. It wouldn't be like MJ, but Kobe would be close with Lebron a close 2nd.

It's not about your opinion.
That means Tim is really really needed by this franchise. It doesn't mean he's a superstar.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/338336-top-current-basketball-franchise-players#page/7

lol using bleacher report to support your argument.

[mathbzh]

Ian Mahinmi is top ranked center in the West #2 in the league (PER 23.43) :hat

[DMC]

Actually I wasn't using Bleacher report to support an argument. I was showing a certain definition of superstar and how other people have opinions that don't necessarily agree with his.

The argument stems from his first objection of the "we don't need a superstar" comment. We do not have a superstar. If the Spurs had a superstar, our ratings wouldn't be so low. We would get more press coverage. We would have a "Spur Index" page on ESPN. This superstar would be doing "what should I do" commercials and the like instead of local supermarket commercials.

Tim has had a superstar career, but he's not currently a superstar in the sense the OP mentioned.

Tim could be a superstar if he wanted to be. He could have gone to another team. Tony and Manu could both be superstars. They aren't. They are super players, but not superstars in the sense that the OP used the term.

Context.... try to stick to that. Or would it be better if I just said "lol not sticking to context"?

[DMC]

And I just had to actually LOL when I read those two statements in close succession.

That's because you aren't considering it in context with what you were arguing against:

honestfool84 Re: and the top ranked center in the West by Hollinger
:tu

Spurs proving that they don't need "superstars" to win.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



When he put "superstars" in quotations like that, he was saying "media celebs". Tim is not a media celeb. You defined it as a great player, so you were equivocating terms and you are doing it again.

[JamStone]

Duncan is probably the best center in the west.

That said, I'd choose Pau Gasol to start at center in the ASG. He's had a better year and has played quite a bit at center this season too.

[DMC]

This is some of the most retarded drivel I've ever had to read on this forum.

Its about the context of the post I replied to, not about the ridiculous shit you're listing there. In any event, saying that Duncan is anything other than a superstar is simply a completely retarded stance to take.

Here is a bit of proof Tim Duncan's mother (RIP) would not be the only one considering him a superstar.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=tim+duncan+superstar
Maybe you just have really poor comprehension skills or maybe you are a tool.

It seems to be a bit of both. Debating with you is like trying to teach a dog nuclear physics. The dog is entertained but never does the homework. He just barks the same shit over and over.

[MannyIsGod]

Tim Duncan: Role Player!