Manu better than Kobe THIS season. Facts don't lie.

[WeNeedLength]

Kobe Bryant will suit up to start his 13th-straight NBA All-Star game this coming February while Spurs stalwart Manu Ginobili rides the bench or quite possibly sits out altogether as Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, and Steve Nash are certain to garner votes from the coaches after fan-voting is finalized.http://thesportsjury.com/images/stories/Mark_Ferland/jordan/aginobili.jpg

I’m here to tell you that something is slightly wrong with the above and while you may not agree with what I have to say I hope to enlighten the folks out there who want Kobe to start simply because, you know, he’s Kobe Bryant.

I firmly believe Manu Ginobili deserves to start in the 2011 NBA All-Star game over everyone mentioned above.
Yes, even over Kobe Bean Bryant.

I know to suggest such a thing will seem like a major gaffe on my part considering the devout following Kobe has all over the planet and his championship pedigree but give me a few minutes of your time and I’ll state my case.

Kobe Bryant may be the most talented player in the league right now not named LeBron James and I happen to agree with The Sporting News for choosing Kobe as the league’s best player earlier this season. I am also a huge fan of Bryant’s game and believe that when he plays within the offense, doesn’t gamble too often on defense, and stays patient by not shooting the Lakers out of games there isn’t a better shooting guard in the league, much less the Western Conference.

However, even the most zealous of Kobe-lovers can agree that this hasn’t been the best of seasons for Bryant and his somewhat-average performance (for him) has opened the door for a debate that would have been downright blasphemous to suggest in any other season during the previous decade. Yes, I realize that Bryant recently admitted that he has barely practiced this season due to balky knees and that could (and should) be playing a part in his uncharactaristic performance this season but that's not Manu's fault! What happens ON the court is what counts!
That being said, keep in mind that we are not talking about the 2002-03 Kobe or the ridiculously superhuman 35.4 version of Bryant. I realize that it’s easy to just assume that Kobe deserves to start due to his sheer star-power but we should be looking at this season only and Manu holds a slight edge right now in my eyes.
The Spurs sit at 35-6 as I write this and no one is more responsible for their surprising start than a healthy, finally-starting Manu Ginobili. In a year where Spurs great Tim Duncan has been limited to just 29-minutes per game Manu has acted as the unpredictable, dynamic, shooting guard-version of Steve Nash for San Antonio on offense and a ball-hawking terror on defense.
And you can't claim that Kobe has been more clutch this year as Manu has a few game-winners to his credit, both offensively and defensively, so far this season. Ask the Bucks and Nuggets about that.

He’s on pace for the best statistics of his career and his per-36 minute production is nearly identical to that of Kobe, who is logging his lowest MPG total since the 1997-98 season (33.2). Their advanced statistics are nearly equal as well. I provide a table with all season statistics below for reference.
So let's see... he's the best player on the league's best team. Reason enough to be considered for an All-Star Game start, right?

Sure, Tony Parker has been splendid as usual, dropping over 17-points per night and adding seven assists per game while operating Popovich’s pick-and-roll schemes at an extremely high level.

He is not Manu, however, and without the ageless Ginobili the Spurs would not be on pace to somewhat challenge the 1995-96 Bulls 72-10 mark. Fifty wins would definitely be a possibility but they would not be elite, championship contenders.

I’m not the only one who believes Manu is MVP-worthy as ESPN has placed Ginobili higher than Kobe Bryant most of the season in their weekly MVP board. I have placed him fourth or fifth all season in my own MVP Power Rankings here at TSJ with Kobe just now re-entering the top ten.
Keep in mind that while Manu has Tim Duncan and Tony Parker by his side Bryant’s team is loaded with Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, and a slew of solid role players. Kobe certainly can’t claim that he’s carrying his squad alone right now and at times he’s hurting them by being too competitive and launching shot after shot to keep L.A. in games instead of showing patience and working within the Jackson’s offense. Not all the time, mind you, but enough to cause Jackson and Kobe to feud through the media recently.
Manu? While he's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination I'm not the first to believe that if he tried to he could put up 25 or more per night by liberating himself from Popovich's offensive schemes.
Also remember that while five years ago Tim Duncan was a much better power forward than Pau Gasol the tables have turned thanks to an aging Duncan, Gasol entering his prime and the slashing of Duncan's minutes by the Spurs coaching staff to rest him for another postseason push.
Looking for a statistical comparison between Manu and Kobe for 2010-11? Check out the table below:


CURRENT SEASON STATISTICS

PLAYER GP MPG PPG FG% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG TPG PER
KOBE BRYANT 42 33.2 25.2 .452 .830 5.6 4.9 1.4 0.1 3.2 24.5
MANU GINOBILI 41 31.6 18.9 .442 .871 4.0 4.7 1.8 0.4 2.4 23.0
As you can see, even if you compare their standard per-game averages both are having very similar seasons (other than PPG) and are nearly even in player efficiency rating (PER) which remains the new advanced-standard for judging a player's ultimate statistical value. PER is not the end-all-be-all of player evaluation but it's pretty damn close - as close as statistical analysis can get right now. Read more about what PER is from ESPN by CLICKING HERE (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2850240).
He's also winning in the ever-important "win shares" column 6.0 to 5.7, respectively, and defeats Mr. Bryant in defensive win shares as well.
How about offensive and defensive ratings? It might surprise you to learn that Ginobili is scoring more points (117-112) and allowing less points (102-105) per 100 possessions than Kobe this season. Not only that, his advantage over Kobe in offensive rating is even more impressive considering Bryant's usage rate is much higher. Check out Basketball-Reference.com (http://www.basketball-reference.com/) for more info.
So what am I trying to say here? That Kobe Bryant is past his prime and that Ginobili is the new king of shooting guards out West? No way! What I am attempting to illustrate is that as fans, just for a moment, we should disregard Kobe's past accomplishments and Manu's perpetual bench-role and focus on the season at hand by watching each of them play and how valuable each is to their respective team's title hopes instead of handing a start over to Kobe based on "name value" alone.
Am I in the minority for thinking Manu deserves an All-Star start? Sure. Do I wish folks would actually watch Ginobili play before claiming that he's unworthy and that he has no business even being named an All-Star in the first place? You bet.
Seriously, for those of you who doubt Ginobili's dynamic, game-altering presence on both ends I ask that you watch a few Spurs games first, then get back to me. You may not agree that he deserves to start over Bryant but you'll have a better idea of why I'm making this argument in the first place.
Kobe Bryant remains one of my favorite players to watch. He continues to play a dynamic, elite brand of basketball and I would not be surprised to see him claim his sixth championship ring this spring, thereby igniting the MJ vs. Kobe debate all over again (no contest to me, as MJ is the greatest ever, but I digress). In every season since 1999-00 I have voted Kobe in as a starter out West. I'm not even saying I'll be incredibly upset when Bryant is announced as the starter.
However, based on statistical and visual evidence, this season my vote will be for Manu Ginobili.
by Mark Ferland from SportsJury


Man speaks the truth. Suck on that trolls. :lol

[Zelophehad]

"SportsJury"

[Killakobe81]

LOL writer uses stats but yet Kobe outscores, has more assists, is shooting better from the field has higher PER but decides Manu deserves to start based on win share and offensive rating...genius!!!

Many of the spur fans on here could make a much better case for manu (such as Many gamewinners 4th quarter play) ... than this ass clown. Article? FAIL.

[Venti Quattro]

Statistically, yes Manu is kind of better than Kobe this year.

[WeNeedLength]

LOL writer uses stats but yet Kobe outscores, has more assists, is shooting better from the field has higher PER but decides Manu deserves to start based on win share and offensive rating...genius!!!

Many of the spur fans on here could make a much better case for manu (such as Many gamewinners 4th quarter play) ... than this ass clown. Article? FAIL.


Statistically, yes Manu is kind of better than Kobe this year.

Uh oh. Complete contradiction. LOL. Maybe you guys should have discussed amongst yourselves before you posted. :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Statistically, yes Manu is kind of better than Kobe this year.

No he doesnt. again stats can always point where you want.

Traditional: Kobe
PER: Kobe
win share: Manu
offensive/defensive rating: Manu

[Killakobe81]

thing that is funny watching the games I would of never guessed Manu is shooting less from the field than kobe. He must of slumped and I know Kobe has improved ... last 10 games ... but early on it seemed Manu never missed but I dont usually watch all 48 of most spur games mostly the 4th quarters ...

[Venti Quattro]

No he doesnt. again stats can always point where you want.

Traditional: Kobe
PER: Kobe
win share: Manu
offensive/defensive rating: Manu

Honestly, I just based my observation on how they've been showing up on the court. I don't stat-crunch and neither I have the time for it.

But lately Kobe has shaped up with his shooting. His win share dipped but it's evenly distributed. That can't be a bad thing.

[duhoh]

starters are voted in.

fail.

[Killakobe81]

Honestly, I just based my observation on how they've been showing up on the court. I don't stat-crunch and neither I have the time for it.

But lately Kobe has shaped up with his shooting. His win share dipped but it's evenly distributed. That can't be a bad thing.

LOL im not either all i did was look at the stats the writer uses ...pretty crappy article if he was trying to prove his point but at least he used a variety of metrics. But I have heard callers on Sportstalk San antonio make better argumets than this one ...

[21_Blessings]

Statistically, yes Manu is kind of better than Kobe this year.

Then you're looking at the wrong statistics.

Win share is pretty worthless and no one credible takes it seriously when comparing two players.

[Cry Havoc]

Pretty poorly written article.

"Yes, I realize that Bryant recently admitted that he has barely practiced this season due to balky knees and that could (and should) be playing a part in his uncharactaristic performance this season but that's not Manu's fault! What happens ON the court is what counts!"

This reminds me of the gaming review I posted to The Geek Zone a couple of days ago. It smacks of partiality, and any writer worth his salt would never, ever use a sentence like this in a serious article.

[Pero]

thing that is funny watching the games I would of never guessed Manu is shooting less from the field than kobe. He must of slumped and I know Kobe has improved ... last 10 games ... but early on it seemed Manu never missed but I dont usually watch all 48 of most spur games mostly the 4th quarters ...

Yeah Manu slumped in the recent games.

[Venti Quattro]

Pretty poorly written article.

"Yes, I realize that Bryant recently admitted that he has barely practiced this season due to balky knees and that could (and should) be playing a part in his uncharactaristic performance this season but that's not Manu's fault! What happens ON the court is what counts!"

This reminds me of the gaming review I posted to The Geek Zone a couple of days ago. It smacks of partiality, and any writer worth his salt would never, ever use a sentence like this in a serious article.

I don't take credence in this article primarily because it looks like it's been freshly baked from Bleacher Report

[WeNeedLength]

Honestly it was a LOL article to mock the Laker trolls who post shit just like this to infuriate spur fans. Sad thing is, it works most of the time. Ah wellz....

[howbouthemspurs]

Manu is a winner and does what the coach asks of him. Kobe has gone astray a few too many times this season ignoring what Jackson wants out of him. He has been hard to coach and tried too many times to take over games and failed. Manu is as big competitor as Kobe is but knows when to stop and listen to his coach. Manu can school Kobe any day and vice versa. I would love to watch them play one on one at a playground sometime... that would be so cool!

[Killakobe81]

Manu is a winner and does what the coach asks of him. Kobe has gone astray a few too many times this season ignoring what Jackson wants out of him. He has been hard to coach and tried too many times to take over games and failed. Manu is as big competitor as Kobe is but knows when to stop and listen to his coach. Manu can school Kobe any day and vice versa. I would love to watch them play one on one at a playground sometime... that would be so cool!


LOL sophmoric ...but better than the OP's article ...

[NRHector]

I don't take credence in this article primarily because it looks like it's been freshly baked from Bleacher Reportyou are right, I don't take credence either if the article comes from Bleacher Report specially if is about Kobe

[Venti Quattro]

Honestly it was a LOL article to mock the Laker trolls who post shit just like this to infuriate spur fans. Sad thing is, it works most of the time. Ah wellz....

It really worked. I feel so bad now :cry :cry :cry

Come on Laker brethren, please feel bad about the op's article too :cry

[Blake]

bad article.

:td

[Phillip]

dumb

[ChrisRichards]

Yeah, thats reaching. I mean these players are voted in by the fans. Fail.


I think he'll have a better case if he took the All Star Appearance out of the equation. Not a lot of people can argue that Manu is playing better than Kobe. Just look at the Spurs record.

[ElNono]

dumb

:stupid:

[Phillip]

im stupid

[Venti Quattro]

Weneedlength I have a tip for you. Need to elicit a lot of butthurt responses? Post this on LG or Clublakers. That's your only shot

[hater]

he is more efficient. that is nonnegotiable.

but still I would not call him better than Kobe.

Kobe is slightly better than him at this point in their careers.

[NRHector]

he is more efficient. that is nonnegotiable.he also knocked down bats, blocked Durant, have twins, I don't think Kobe can do that

[Killakobe81]

he is more efficient. that is nonnegotiable.

but still I would not call him better than Kobe.

Kobe is slightly better than him at this point in their careers.

Not this season. Hollinger has kobe 5th and Manu 18th (IIRC) ... in Player EFFICIENCY RATING ...

I do think Manu should get more votes for MVP than Kobe though ...if the season ended today. he just has made a bunch of clutch plays that have contributed to the spurs start.

[ElNono]

:cry

I was agreeing with you :wakeup

[WeNeedLength]

Weneedlength I have a tip for you. Need to elicit a lot of butthurt responses? Post this on LG or Clublakers. That's your only shot

Well obviously I suck at trolling haha. I guess I'll stick to being a normal poster who isn't ridiculously annoying. Well not all of the time at least like your Laker trolls.. :lol

[Venti Quattro]

he also knocked down bats, blocked Durant, have twins, I don't think Kobe can do that

Has he blocked Yao ... multiple times? Nah uh :nope :nope :nope

[Giuseppe]

Whatever Manu has done this season it's better than laying down for the Suns like he did during The Skunker.

Christ-a-mighty, even I couldn't look after awhile.

[Rummpd]

Kobe deserves to start and Manu deserves a selection. Both are great.

[TE]

lol laker fans thinking they didn't get trolled

[ChrisRichards]

lol laker fans thinking they didn't get trolled
Pretty bad :lol

[Koolaid_Man]

Pretty poorly written article.

"Yes, I realize that Bryant recently admitted that he has barely practiced this season due to balky knees and that could (and should) be playing a part in his uncharactaristic performance this season but that's not Manu's fault! What happens ON the court is what counts!"

This reminds me of the gaming review I posted to The Geek Zone a couple of days ago. It smacks of partiality, and any writer worth his salt would never, ever use a sentence like this in a serious article.


Hey bitch...Manu is Kobe's whipping boy...Manu can't play in the Allstar because of Kobe...wah wah wah....Manu is the guy that would have been had not Kobe existed...

[history2b]

LOL!

Stat happy internet fanboys make me laugh.:lol

[Rummpd]

They both deserve their respective picks - Kobe starts and Manu plays some with him - they have great mutual respect - period!

On page 16 of The Art of a Beautiful Game, while waxing about Kobe’s over-competitiveness, author Chris Ballard drops this little quote from No. 24: “‘I love Manu,’ says Bryant. ‘He plays exactly the way I play, balls to the wall.’”

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2010/09/top-50-manu-ginobili-no-31/

Underrated. It might be the most overused word in sports. As hoop-aholics we always beat our chests and stand on the curb shouting about how our favorite player gets no love. Therein lies the roundball rub. Our arguments are often dismissed because of our allegiances. This case for Manu Ginobili’s greatness can’t be. Why? Because as a Houston native, I loathe the San Antonio Spurs. I can assure you that no bias exists here. I went to college twenty-five minutes away from San Antonio and had to listen every day about the San Antonio Spurs dynasty. I made it my mission to debunk the fantasies Spurs had about their team. The thing is that the more you examine Manu’s career, the better he becomes. In fact, Manu may be the most underrated, there’s that word again, player of our generation.


How well-rounded is Ginobili’s offensive game? A New York Times article regarding Shane Battier, the defensive student of the game that he is, studied the very subject. Battier is given data to study every opponent. The results speak for themselves. “Manu Ginobili is a statistical freak: he has no imbalance whatsoever in his game,” the article offers. “There is no one way to play him that is better than another. He is equally efficient off the dribble as he is off the pass, going left and right and any spot from on the floor.” It’s true. You’re just as likely to get beaten by a quick slash to the lane as you are a bucket from behind the line when it comes to Ginobili. He can score from anywhere. On any other team he would be a perennial All-Star.

But it’s not about that. See, unlike other players who are too caught up in the “importance” of getting starter’s minutes (see Allen Iverson), Manu Ginobili kills ‘em softly any way the team needs him. He doesn’t mind letting Timmy and Tony have their names on the marquee, even though he could lead the team in points and assists. He just keeps on keeping on and counts the championship rings at the end of the day.

The word clutch has become synonymous with Kobe Bryant but it’s an undeserved association. Yeah, you guessed it, Manu’s the real heir to the last minute throne. Forbes did a study chronicling the top players in the last five minutes of a game including overtime. It wasn’t even close. Manu topped the list and shoots lights out at a 57.4% clip. Your boy Kobe? 44.8%. Do I have your attention yet?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=ginobma01


It is uncanny that these two have have had almost the identical shooting percentage against each other (0.423 Manu vs. 0.422 Bryant with Manu better on the three shooting 37% vs. 30% - Kobe scores a lot @ 26 PPG vs. about 16 PPG but has played about 10 minutes more per game). In the last four or so years Manu has scored with Kobe in a few games or been right there with him (27, 24, and 32 points in some of his head to heads when Bryant had 29. 24, and 22) interestingly for what it is worth although Bowen was guarding Bryant some of that time , Manu is more often now guarding Bryant.

Bottom line when Spurs face the LAL - having to put Manu out there against Kobe is about as good as it gets in regards to a near as possible equivelence at the SG position (other than Wade) and both Kobe and Manu flat out deserve all star status with Kobe deserving to start.

[NRHector]

They both deserve their respective picks - Kobe starts and Manu plays some with him - they have great mutual respect - period!

On page 16 of The Art of a Beautiful Game, while waxing about Kobe’s over-competitiveness, author Chris Ballard drops this little quote from No. 24: “‘I love Manu,’ says Bryant. ‘He plays exactly the way I play, balls to the wall.’”

http://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/slamonline-top-50/2010/09/top-50-manu-ginobili-no-31/

Underrated. It might be the most overused word in sports. As hoop-aholics we always beat our chests and stand on the curb shouting about how our favorite player gets no love. Therein lies the roundball rub. Our arguments are often dismissed because of our allegiances. This case for Manu Ginobili’s greatness can’t be. Why? Because as a Houston native, I loathe the San Antonio Spurs. I can assure you that no bias exists here. I went to college twenty-five minutes away from San Antonio and had to listen every day about the San Antonio Spurs dynasty. I made it my mission to debunk the fantasies Spurs had about their team. The thing is that the more you examine Manu’s career, the better he becomes. In fact, Manu may be the most underrated, there’s that word again, player of our generation.


How well-rounded is Ginobili’s offensive game? A New York Times article regarding Shane Battier, the defensive student of the game that he is, studied the very subject. Battier is given data to study every opponent. The results speak for themselves. “Manu Ginobili is a statistical freak: he has no imbalance whatsoever in his game,” the article offers. “There is no one way to play him that is better than another. He is equally efficient off the dribble as he is off the pass, going left and right and any spot from on the floor.” It’s true. You’re just as likely to get beaten by a quick slash to the lane as you are a bucket from behind the line when it comes to Ginobili. He can score from anywhere. On any other team he would be a perennial All-Star.

But it’s not about that. See, unlike other players who are too caught up in the “importance” of getting starter’s minutes (see Allen Iverson), Manu Ginobili kills ‘em softly any way the team needs him. He doesn’t mind letting Timmy and Tony have their names on the marquee, even though he could lead the team in points and assists. He just keeps on keeping on and counts the championship rings at the end of the day.

The word clutch has become synonymous with Kobe Bryant but it’s an undeserved association. Yeah, you guessed it, Manu’s the real heir to the last minute throne. Forbes did a study chronicling the top players in the last five minutes of a game including overtime. It wasn’t even close. Manu topped the list and shoots lights out at a 57.4% clip. Your boy Kobe? 44.8%. Do I have your attention yet?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=bryanko01&p2=ginobma01


It is uncanny that these two have have had almost the identical shooting percentage against each other (0.423 Manu vs. 0.422 Bryant with Manu better on the three shooting 37% vs. 30% - Kobe scores a lot @ 26 PPG vs. about 16 PPG but has played about 10 minutes more per game). In the last four or so years Manu has scored with Kobe in a few games or been right there with him (27, 24, and 32 points in some of his head to heads when Bryant had 29. 24, and 22) interestingly for what it is worth although Bowen was guarding Bryant some of that time , Manu is more often now guarding Bryant.

Bottom line when Spurs face the LAL - having to put Manu out there against Kobe is about as good as it gets in regards to a near as possible equivelence at the SG position (other than Wade) and both Kobe and Manu flat out deserve all star status with Kobe deserving to start.this just show how great Manu is, He's been doing this as not being the main man in the team, unlike Kobe that he is the star of that team and demanding help

[DMC]

You could do worse than being compared to either player, Manu or Kobe. Which is having a better year is a moot point, because it's a team game.

[hater]

He plays exactly the way I would like to play, balls to the wall.

fixed

[Giuseppe]

What hurts The Compost Man (aka Manure) is the same thing that hurts Duncan:::their chronologic inability to go back-to-back.

[Phillip]

im stupid

[Phillip]

this just show how great Manu is, He's been doing this as not being the main man in the team, unlike Kobe that he is the star of that team and demanding help

if manu was the leader of his team, he would have no rings. replace kobe with manu the past two years, the lakers may not even get out of the first round either year.

[Giuseppe]

if manu was the leader of his team, he would have no rings. replace kobe with manu the past two years, the lakers may not even get out of the first round either year.

Sometimes Phil hits it square.

This is one of those times.

[hater]

Kobe thinking he plays as hard as Manu is the funniest thing I heard all day.

Manu has the athletic ability of a dog, the strength of a woman, the fragility of Bynum, got a big nose, a bald spot and looks white and goofy out there.

yet he still manages to put crazy stats and is a good of better than Kobe in the clutch.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe thinking he plays as hard as Manu is the funniest thing I heard all day.

Manu has the athletic ability of a dog, the strength of a woman, the fragility of Bynum, got a big nose, a bald spot and looks white and goofy out there.

yet he still manages to put crazy stats and is a good of better than Kobe in the clutch.

But, Manu can't go back-to-back. Makes his strength of a woman look puny in comparison.

[Phillip]

Kobe thinking he plays as hard as Manu is the funniest thing I heard all day.

Manu has the athletic ability of a dog, the strength of a woman, the fragility of Bynum, got a big nose, a bald spot and looks white and goofy out there.

yet he still manages to put crazy stats and is a good of better than Kobe in the clutch.

i think manu is incredibly skilled. id say hes honestly about even to kobe in terms of skills, and in some ways he is even more skilled (his craftiness in getting to the rim is something ive never seen before), but physically, he is considerably inferior. if he had kobes athletic ability, id say he would be every bit as good or better than Kobe. unfortunately for him, he doesnt have that ability, and thats why he will never be better than a #2 option on a team that contends for a championship.

[Giuseppe]

Yep, Phil has it right:::Manure is a second banana.

[ElNono]

i think manu is incredibly skilled. id say hes honestly about even to kobe in terms of skills, and in some ways he is even more skilled (his craftiness in getting to the rim is something ive never seen before), but physically, he is considerably inferior. if he had kobes athletic ability, id say he would be every bit as good or better than Kobe.

:stupid:

[Phillip]

im stupid

[ElNono]

Yep, Phil has it right:::Manure is a second banana.

Just like Kobe...

What sets them apart is the physical ability. Kobe is and has been athletically superior.

[ElNono]

:cry

I was agreeing with you :wakeup

[Phillip]

Just like Kobe...


2 rings as #1 banana

[Phillip]

im stupid

[ElNono]

2 rings as #1 banana

Debatable. Could not survive playoffs with Odom, Bynum and Phil until Gasol got there.

[ElNono]

:cry

[mikeschy55]

I understood the whole Kobe vs Lebron debate..... but Kobe vs Manu? Damn.... there's some homers on this board.

Btw, Kobe is still the best player in the league. He'll show you why yet again come playoff time.

[jjktkk]

Sometimes Phil hits it square.

This is one of those times.

The problem though is faggot loses credibility when the cully endorses him.

[FkLA]

Manu couldve been a #1 guy on a team tbh. His teams wouldve been competitive too, maybe not championship level but definitely competitive. He's won at every level where he's been the #1 guy...I dont get how people can sit there and say if he was ever that in the NBA his teams would suck. His olympic run should be enough, he took a squad with some nba talent, but definitely not the most talented team in the tournament to the gold medal. Won the world championships prior to that too.

[jestersmash]

Ginobili = 3rd best shooting guard in the league end of story. Kobe/Wade are almost on a separate tier above him. Ginobili holds his own on a separate tier after those two. And then it's everybody else (Kevin martin, etc)

[jestersmash]

I understood the whole Kobe vs Lebron debate..... but Kobe vs Manu? Damn.... there's some homers on this board.

Btw, Kobe is still the best player in the league. He'll show you why yet again come playoff time.


Hands down worst post in this thread.

[ElNono]

I understood the whole Kobe vs Lebron debate..... but Kobe vs Manu? Damn.... there's some homers on this board.

There's really no debate between Lebron and Kobe.
One has 2x League MVP, one doesn't.


Btw, Kobe is still the best player in the league. He'll show you why yet again come playoff time.

Like in 2005? :lol
You mean, MVPau will show us...

[FkLA]

I understood the whole Kobe vs Lebron debate..... but Kobe vs Manu? Damn.... there's some homers on this board.

Btw, Kobe is still the best player in the league. He'll show you why yet again come playoff time.

you suck at analyzing bball tbh

kobe hasnt been the best player in the league in yrs

[Giuseppe]

Ginobili = 3rd best shooting guard in the league end of story. Kobe/Wade are almost on a separate tier above him. Ginobili holds his own on a separate tier after those two. And then it's everybody else (Kevin martin, etc)

It's Kobe on the top tier, then Manure on a separate tier beneath Kobe, then the remainder. I don't buy Wade. I ain't denigrating his ring. I wouldn't do that. But, I want to see him do that again before I judge him higher.

[Giuseppe]

you suck at analyzing bball tbh

kobe hasnt been the best player in the league in yrs

It's true, Fk. Kobe is the best player in the league. & 55 is right: it's not even close.

[history2b]

It's true, Fk. Kobe is the best player in the league. & 55 is right: it's not even close.


NBA coaches, GMs, current players and past legends all tend to agree Kobe is still the best player on the planet.

Fanboys on Spurstalk see things different...

Gee, I wonder which perspective holds more weight. :lmao:lmao:lmao

[ChrisRichards]

It's Kobe on the top tier, then Manure on a separate tier beneath Kobe, then the remainder. I don't buy Wade. I ain't denigrating his ring. I wouldn't do that. But, I want to see him do that again before I judge him higher.
We'd like to see Kobe win a ring without a Superstar big man and we'll judge him accordingly.

[FkLA]

It's true, Fk. Kobe is the best player in the league. & 55 is right: it's not even close.

pure delusion

even u know that isnt true, cubby.

[ElNono]

NBA coaches, GMs, current players and past legends all tend to agree Kobe is still the best player on the planet.

Fanboys on Spurstalk see things different...

Gee, I wonder which perspective holds more weight. :cry:cry:cry

Looks that when they had to actually vote, they handed the League MVP trophy to Lebron... twice...

[Rummpd]

if manu was the leader of his team, he would have no rings. replace kobe with manu the past two years, the lakers may not even get out of the first round either year.

I am not sure I buy that one -Manu assuming he was healthy and playing a few more minutes would have most likely gotten the LAL out of the 1st round at least.

No knock on Kobe who is and has been better of course the better player; but the difference between the two as competitors and players is not that great and do not underestimate the value of how well Gasol and Manu would play together - they would throw crazy and effective passes around.

Some rankings to consider NOTE in one year at least by Hollinger's PER Manu was greater than Bryant:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west

1) Bryant 3) Manu

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west/year/2010 1) Manu higher than 2) Bryant.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west/year/2009

1) Bryant 3) Manu Roy is there and if healthy is certainly in the tier right below Bryant and Wade and alongside Manu IMO

[FTLSpur]

lol Laker fans trolled so easily :lol

[history2b]

We'd like to see Kobe win a ring without a Superstar big man and we'll judge him accordingly.


Pau is not a superstar, lol.

[mikeschy55]

NBA coaches, GMs, current players and past legends all tend to agree Kobe is still the best player on the planet.

Fanboys on Spurstalk see things different...

Gee, I wonder which perspective holds more weight. :lmao:lmao:lmao

It doesn't matter what NBA coaches and GM's say, anyone who disagrees with a spurs fan and their homerism is clearly an idiot. Wake up man.

[history2b]

Looks that when they had to actually vote, they handed the League MVP trophy to Lebron... twice...


Lol, GMs, coaches, legends and players don't vote for League MVP putz.

That would be a national panel of journalists.

[FkLA]

Lol, GMs, coaches, legends and players don't vote for League MVP putz.

That would be a national panel of journalists.

links of GMs, coaches, legends, and players proclaiming that kome is still the best player in the league this yr

[Giuseppe]

We'd like to see Kobe win a ring without a Superstar big man and we'll judge him accordingly.

That's neither here nor there. Wade is suspect. I want to see him win another ring before I bestow upon him.

[NRHector]

That's neither here nor there. Wade is suspect. I want to see him win another ring before I bestow upon him.come on Culby mentioning Wade in this thread is completely irrelevant

[Giuseppe]

I didn't cite Wade first.

[mikeschy55]

links of GMs, coaches, legends, and players proclaiming that kome is still the best player in the league this yr

He's the best player on the planet come playoff time and he has the rings to prove it. You need quotes? Have you watched Kobe in the playoffs? He's an entirely different player..... regular season doesn't mean shit. Steve Nash won the MVP twice and he's not ever going to be in the discussion of top ten or top twenty greatest players because a bunch of journalists had a hard on for him at the time. If Kobe wins his second 3-peat, he will unquestionably go down as a top ten player to ever play the game.

Manu will NEVER be as good as Kobe. He could stay the same age for the rest of his life and Kobe would still beat him on his death bed in the hospital..... And for that matter, same goes with Dirk. If Kobe is playing for a ring, it doesn't matter.

[Giuseppe]

^55, the goods, Wednesday evening.

[FkLA]

He's the best player on the planet come playoff time and he has the rings to prove it. You need quotes? Have you watched Kobe in the playoffs? He's an entirely different player..... regular season doesn't mean shit. Steve Nash won the MVP twice and he's not ever going to be in the discussion of top ten or top twenty greatest players ever because a bunch of journalists had a hard on for him at the time. If Kobe wins his second 3-peat, he will unquestionably go down as a top ten player to ever play the game.

Manu will NEVER be as good as Kobe. He could stay the same age for the rest of his life and Kobe would still beat on his death bed in the hospital.

You mean like his 6-24 peformance in last yrs Game 7?He's had stacked teams with dominant big men at his side, of course he's going to have rings...he also plays for arguably the most storied franchise in NBA history. The Lakers have won rings before Kobe and will win rings after Kobe. Its funny to me that the rings argument is used when comparing Kobe to Bron considering how opposite their circumstances were...Bron was playing for a team and city that is notrious for losing, and was surrounded by guys that are like 8-35 one yr after having had the best record in the league. People conveniently ignore how Kobe did when he was playing alongside scrubs, he did much worse than Bron ever did.

Manu > Kobe this season...Kobe has the upperhand career wise though obviously. Similar to Dirk > Duncan this season, while Duncan's career trumps Dirk's.

[NRHector]

I didn't cite Wade first.what's going on with you old fart? you where here 24/7

[Giuseppe]

Chris lodged Wade first. I just boned him soon thereafter.

[jestersmash]

You mean like his 6-24 peformance in last yrs Game 7?He's had stacked teams with dominant big men at his side, of course he's going to have rings...he also plays for arguably the most storied franchise in NBA history. The Lakers have won rings before Kobe and will win rings after Kobe. Its funny to me that the rings argument is used when comparing Kobe to Bron considering how opposite their circumstances were...Bron was playing for a team and city that is notrious for losing, and was surrounded by guys that are like 8-35 one yr after having had the best record in the league. People conveniently ignore how Kobe did when he was playing alongside scrubs, he did much worse than Bron ever did.

Manu > Kobe this season...Kobe has the upperhand career wise though obviously. Similar to Dirk > Duncan this season, while Duncan's career trumps Dirk's.

Not even that, actually. Through the first 1/4 of the season? Sure.

Cumulatively through the first half? Not anymore, mostly because his 3 point shooting has been awful as of late. I mean uncharacteristically awful.

Can he still get the free throw line pretty much at will when he wants to score? Sure. Is his mid-range jumper/floater still good? Sure. Both pre-requisites of an elite SG.

But, his recent slump in 3 point shooting has especially hurt his stats because he simply takes more of them this season. No point in banging up his body more than need be during the regular season just to get 4+ more FT attempts per game when it's not necessary to win games.

Kobe's doing the same thing as well, by the way. He's relying more on his outside shot and post game to score as needed during the regular season. Once playoff time comes around, he's going to attack the rim a lot more often than usual and he'll get to the line a lot more often accordingly.

[mikeschy55]

You mean like his 6-24 peformance in last yrs Game 7?He's had stacked teams with dominant big men at his side, of course he's going to have rings...he also plays for arguably the most storied franchise in NBA history. The Lakers have won rings before Kobe and will win rings after Kobe. Its funny to me that the rings argument is used when comparing Kobe to Bron considering how opposite their circumstances were...Bron was playing for a team and city that is notrious for losing, and was surrounded by guys that are like 8-35 one yr after having had the best record in the league. People conveniently ignore how Kobe did when he was playing alongside scrubs, he did much worse than Bron ever did.

Manu > Kobe this season...Kobe has the upperhand career wise though obviously. Similar to Dirk > Duncan this season, while Duncan's career trumps Dirk's.

Who was the finals MVP again?

[mikeschy55]

^55, the goods, Wednesday evening.

It takes a while.... but most them come around in the end.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe's doing the same thing as well, by the way. He's relying more on his outside shot and post game to score as needed during the regular season. Once playoff time comes around, he's going to attack the rim a lot more often than usual and he'll get to the line a lot more often accordingly.

Smash, with the goods...i.e., Bryant went not once, not twice, but, thrice on suicide drives into the dotted line 4th quarter Game 7....

- "Go for it, Rock!!!"

[jestersmash]

Who was the finals MVP again?

Actually (based on reasonable assessment by watching the games) or just officially?

[FkLA]

Who was the finals MVP again?

So Paul Pierce was the best player in the league in 08'? Tony Parker in 07'?


Not even that, actually. Through the first 1/4 of the season? Sure.

Cumulatively through the first half? Not anymore, mostly because his 3 point shooting has been awful as of late. I mean uncharacteristically awful.

Can he still get the free throw line pretty much at will when he wants to score? Sure. Is his mid-range jumper/floater still good? Sure. Both pre-requisites of an elite SG.

But, his recent slump in 3 point shooting has especially hurt his stats because he simply takes more of them this season. No point in banging up his body more than need be during the regular season just to get 4+ more FT attempts per game when it's not necessary to win games.

Kobe's doing the same thing as well, by the way. He's relying more on his outside shot and post game to score as needed during the regular season. Once playoff time comes around, he's going to attack the rim a lot more often than usual and he'll get to the line a lot more often accordingly.

This definitely holds some truth, Manu has gone on a shooting slump as of latee.

I think it was a little longer than 1/4 of the season before his slump began too. And I would also put more emphasis on how efficiently Manu can run or be apart of the Spurs' offense...and not focus so much on just his shooting. While Kobe at times disrupts the Lakers' offense when he goes into chucker mode. He's lost several games for the Lakers that way, the Spurs game here in SA, being one example. I dont think the same could be said about any game for Manu. I'd still give the edge slightly to Manu for the season tbh, although yeaa at this point it alot closer than it was earlier on in the season were Manu was clearly playing better than Kobe.

[mikeschy55]

Not even that, actually. Through the first 1/4 of the season? Sure.

Cumulatively through the first half? Not anymore, mostly because his 3 point shooting has been awful as of late. I mean uncharacteristically awful.

Can he still get the free throw line pretty much at will when he wants to score? Sure. Is his mid-range jumper/floater still good? Sure. Both pre-requisites of an elite SG.

But, his recent slump in 3 point shooting has especially hurt his stats because he simply takes more of them this season. No point in banging up his body more than need be during the regular season just to get 4+ more FT attempts per game when it's not necessary to win games.

Kobe's doing the same thing as well, by the way. He's relying more on his outside shot and post game to score as needed during the regular season. Once playoff time comes around, he's going to attack the rim a lot more often than usual and he'll get to the line a lot more often accordingly.

You are talking about regular season statistics. If you want to go by stats, a lot of players are better than Kobe right now.

RIGHT NOW.... Kobe, your own Duncan, Peirce & KG, some other players..... are for the most just going through the motions, only turning it on when necessary, keeping their teams in good shape. When everyone is at their best and playing for a ring, regular season stats don't count for shit and the best players come to play.

[jjktkk]

When everyone is at their best and playing for a ring, regular season stats don't count for shit.

A mav fan would definitely know this tbh.

[jestersmash]

This definitely holds some truth, Manu has gone on a shooting slump as of latee.

I think it was a little longer than 1/4 of the season before his slump began too. And I would also put more emphasis on how efficiently Manu can run or be apart of the Spurs' offense...and not focus so much on just his shooting. While Kobe at times disrupts the Lakers' offense when he goes into chucker mode. He's lost several games for the Lakers that way, the Spurs game here in SA, being on example. I dont think the same could be said about any game for Manu. I'd still give the edge slightly to Manu for the season tbh, although yeaa at this point it alot closer than it was earlier on in the season were Manu was clearly playing better than Kobe.

Maybe 2/5. Just a rough estimation.

[jestersmash]

You are talking about regular season statistics. If you want to go by stats, a lot of players are better than Kobe right now.

RIGHT NOW.... Kobe, your own Duncan, Peirce & KG, some other players..... are for the most just going through the motions, only turning it on when necessary, keeping their teams in good shape. When everyone is at their best and playing for a ring, regular season stats don't count for shit and the best players come to play.

You..do realize I was arguing for Kobe > Manu through the first half of the season, right?

[ElNono]

Lol, GMs, coaches, legends and players don't vote for League MVP putz.

That would be a national panel of journalists.

it's the official trophy handed to the best player in the league... that you're all butthurt about it, doesn't make it any different...

[FkLA]

You are talking about regular season statistics. If you want to go by stats, a lot of players are better than Kobe right now.

RIGHT NOW.... Kobe, your own Duncan, Peirce & KG, some other players..... are for the most just going through the motions, only turning it on when necessary, keeping their teams in good shape. When everyone is at their best and playing for a ring, regular season stats don't count for shit and the best players come to play.

Kobe isnt just going through the motions, have u watched him play this season? He's too competitive for that. He's still chucking up shots like crazy like he always has...its apparent that he's not deferring like Duncan.

Kobe is simply declining. He's 33 with tons of mileage. Its expected, he's human tbh.

[ElNono]

It doesn't matter what NBA coaches and GM's say, anyone who disagrees with a spurs fan and their homerism is clearly an idiot. Wake up man.

Plenty of spursfan here saying Kobe > Manu...
They're just not into giving Kobe a fellatio like some larkerfan in here...

[ElNono]

Who was the finals MVP again?

If that's the sole measuring stick, then Shaq > Kobe
If rings are the sole measuring stick, then Horry > MJ > Kobe

It's silly. The league already hands a 'best player of the year' trophy. Kobe has one. Lebron has the last two.

[mikeschy55]

So Paul Pierce was the best player in the league in 08'? Tony Parker in 07'?

Would you like to go over the number of players that have won the Finals MVP more than once? Do that, and ask yourself how Manu compares with that list. Players like Tim Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, and MJ fill that list. In the playoffs, when Duncan, KG & Peirce, Kobe, etc turn it on, Manu doesn't even come close.


This definitely holds some truth, Manu has gone on a shooting slump as of latee.

I think it was a little longer than 1/4 of the season before his slump began too. And I would also put more emphasis on how efficiently Manu can run or be apart of the Spurs' offense...and not focus so much on just his shooting. While Kobe at times disrupts the Lakers' offense when he goes into chucker mode. He's lost several games for the Lakers that way, the Spurs game here in SA, being one example. I dont think the same could be said about any game for Manu. I'd still give the edge slightly to Manu for the season tbh, although yeaa at this point it alot closer than it was earlier on in the season were Manu was clearly playing better than Kobe.

[jestersmash]

mikeschy55 I have to ask, do you even watch NBA games?

Serious question.

[mikeschy55]

If that's the sole measuring stick, then Shaq > Kobe
If rings are the sole measuring stick, then Horry > MJ > Kobe

It's silly. The league already hands a 'best player of the year' trophy. Kobe has one. Lebron has the last two.

Very... very deep analysis here by ElNono

In all honesty though....As I just said to your other Spurs homer, ask yourself if Manu compares to the list of multiple Finals MVP winners. That's what Kobe and MJ are, Duncan as well. No matter how well Manu may be playing RIGHT NOW, the best player on the floor for you come playoff time will be Duncan. The best player in the league come playoff time, will be Kobe Bryant..... Manu.... well he'll just be Manu.

[mikeschy55]

mikeschy55 I have to ask, do you even watch NBA games?

Serious question.

Do you wipe your own ass? Serious question man

Sorry I don't agree with Manu>Kobe:lmao

[jestersmash]

And that's all she wrote, folks...

[jestersmash]

Do you wipe your own ass? Serious question man

I do, usually while sitting, though I've recently learned that there's a school of thought that suggests wiping your ass while partially standing might promote better cleanliness overall.

Are you a sitter or a stander?

[FkLA]

Very... very deep analysis here by ElNono

In all honesty though....As I just said to your other Spurs homer, ask yourself if Manu compares to the list of multiple Finals MVP winners. That's what Kobe and MJ are, Duncan as well. No matter how well Manu may be playing RIGHT NOW, the best player on the floor for you come playoff time will be Duncan. The best player in the league come playoff time, will be Kobe Bryant..... Manu.... well he'll just be Manu.

Duncan and Shaq both have more finals MVPs than Kobe...shouldnt they be the best players in the league cum playoff time ??

[mikeschy55]

I do, usually while sitting, though I've recently learned that there's a school of thought that suggests wiping your ass while partially standing might promote better cleanliness overall.

Are you a sitter or a stander?

Yea o.k.... we're just going to leave it at that.

[ElNono]

Very... very deep analysis here by ElNono

Just as deep as your Finals MVP analysis, tbh :jack


In all honesty though....As I just said to your other Spurs homer, ask yourself if Manu compares to the list of multiple Finals MVP winners. That's what Kobe and MJ are, Duncan as well. No matter how well Manu may be playing RIGHT NOW, the best player on the floor for you come playoff time will be Duncan. The best player in the league come playoff time, will be Kobe Bryant.

Manu had more than a hand in our championships. Pop himself said we wouldn't have won in '05 and '07 without him.
Finals MVP is nice and all, but it's not even representative of the entire playoffs. Case in point, if not for Fish, Artest and Gasol bailing him out in previous series and games, Kobe doesn't even get his.

Again, the best player in the league for the past few seasons has been clearly Lebron. The way Cleveland is struggling after his departure should really leave little doubt about it.

[mikeschy55]

Duncan and Shaq both have more finals MVPs than Kobe...shouldnt they be the best players in the league cum playoff time ??

Trying to oversimplify the logic isn't getting you anywhere. If you have won the MVP finals more than once, your more than likely one of the best players to ever step foot on the floor. Manu Giniboli isn't one of those players. If you want to believe that Manu Ginobili is better than Kobe Bryant... be my guest. He'll show you wrong come playoff time..... again.

[Tp9gospursgo]

Has he blocked Yao ... multiple times? Nah uh :nope :nope :nope

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVICUds1X4k

[FkLA]

Trying to oversimplify the logic isn't getting you anywhere. If you want to believe that Manu Ginobili is better than Kobe Bryant... be my guest. He'll show you wrong come playoff time..... again.

so the logic only works when it supports your argument? god bless you and your family son.

also how is kobe just cruising, watch him play...watch him chuck up shots like hes always done just at a much more ineffective rate, and then comeback and say that hes cruising with a straight face. jester nailed itt--it doesnt seem like u even watch games tbh.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVICUds1X4k

thats a dunk not a block tbh

[mikeschy55]

so the logic only works when it supports your argument? god bless you and your family son.

also how is kobe just cruising, watch him play...watch him chuck up shots like hes always done just at a much more ineffective rate, and then comeback and say that hes cruising with a straight face. jester nailed itt--it doesnt seem like u even watch games tbh.

No, I actually laid the incredibly simple logic out for you in my last post.

Multiple MVP winner (2,3,4 however many)= one of the best players to ever play. Manu is not that. God bless your homerism

thats a dunk not a block tbh

[DMC]

Wow learn how to use quote tags.

[DMC]

if manu was the leader of his team, he would have no rings. replace kobe with manu the past two years, the lakers may not even get out of the first round either year.
We already know if you remove Gasol, Kobe loses to the Suns in the 1st round. That's not even a debate.

I will give Kobe this: He's developed on ONE team, unlike the mercs that the Lakers splurged on who have been developed by other franchises and find their way to LA to help the "greatest of all time" win a ring. This is the same thing the majority of you guys bitched non stop about with Lebron. The "ya but" arguments are pointless, one big name went to play with another big name to get over the hump. Pau was a big name, Shaq was a big name. Both were the best players on their respective teams.

When have the Spurs ever acquired the best player from another team to get over the hump? Every ring the Lakers have since Kobe's been playing has come under those circumstances. Just as Wade's legacy will be tarnished by needing Shaq and Lebron to get over the hump (if they do), Kobe's will be by needing Pau and Shaq.

No role players have played better because they were on the Lakers team. All they had to do was fit in and pass the ball to Kobe or Shaq or Pau, and occasionally Bynum. Sasha fucked up by shooting a couple of times and Fish just has tenure. On the other hand, the Spurs role players improve in order to get the Spurs past mediocrity. What other team in the league boasts the kinds of performances we see every game from Spurs role players? Some of these same guys weren't even noticed before the Spurs acquired them. We made RMJ look like Ray Allen for a year. Now he doesn't even get a minute a game in NY.

[FkLA]

Who is saying that Manu is an all-time great, or that Manu's career is better than Kobe's? Noone. Youre arguing by yourself there.

Kobe hasnt been the best player in the league in years, thats basically what everyone other then the lovable cubby disagrees with. Still waiting for you to tell me how Kobe is simply cruising this season too.


Wow learn how to use quote tags.

:lol

[Dayum78]

Just as deep as your Finals MVP analysis, tbh :jack

Again, the best player in the league for the past few seasons has been clearly Lebron. The way Cleveland is struggling after his departure should really leave little doubt about it.

Not just Lebron left Cleveland its the entire team..

[FkLA]

solid first post

[NRHector]

We already know if you remove Gasol, Kobe loses to the Suns in the 1st round. That's not even a debate.

I will give Kobe this: He's developed on ONE team, unlike the mercs that the Lakers splurged on who have been developed by other franchises and find their way to LA to help the "greatest of all time" win a ring. This is the same thing the majority of you guys bitched non stop about with Lebron. The "ya but" arguments are pointless, one big name went to play with another big name to get over the hump. Pau was a big name, Shaq was a big name. Both were the best players on their respective teams.

When have the Spurs ever acquired the best player from another team to get over the hump? Every ring the Lakers have since Kobe's been playing has come under those circumstances. Just as Wade's legacy will be tarnished by needing Shaq and Lebron to get over the hump (if they do), Kobe's will be by needing Pau and Shaq.

No role players have played better because they were on the Lakers team. All they had to do was fit in and pass the ball to Kobe or Shaq or Pau, and occasionally Bynum. Sasha fucked up by shooting a couple of times and Fish just has tenure. On the other hand, the Spurs role players improve in order to get the Spurs past mediocrity. What other team in the league boasts the kinds of performances we see every game from Spurs role players? Some of these same guys weren't even noticed before the Spurs acquired them. We made RMJ look like Ray Allen for a year. Now he doesn't even get a minute a game in NY.this :toast

[ElNono]

Not just Lebron left Cleveland its the entire team..

Big Z and Shaq are the only two significant minutes-getters that left. Jamison, Mo Williams, Varejao, JJ Hickson, Boobie Gibson, Anthony Parker... they're all there. They also added Sessions. Went from best record in the league to worst.

[Venti Quattro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVICUds1X4k
WNemKXW6YcM

[jestersmash]

WNemKXW6YcM

http://www.reece-eu.net/gallery/var/albums/funny/sort-of-want.jpg?m=1272645181

Db123b2UZxg

[ezau]

Better scorer: Kobe
Better passer/playmaker: Manu

thread over, bitches.

[ezau]

i think manu is incredibly skilled. id say hes honestly about even to kobe in terms of skills, and in some ways he is even more skilled (his craftiness in getting to the rim is something ive never seen before), but physically, he is considerably inferior. if he had kobes athletic ability, id say he would be every bit as good or better than Kobe. unfortunately for him, he doesnt have that ability, and thats why he will never be better than a #2 option on a team that contends for a championship.

I'd say Kobe is stronger and more athletic than Manu, but Manu's agility is all-world. That makes him really, really effective.

[jjktkk]

Better scorer: Kobe
Better passer/playmaker: Manu

thread over, bitches.

+1. Nothing to see here folks, move on.

[Phillip]

We already know if you remove Gasol, Kobe loses to the Suns in the 1st round. That's not even a debate.

what kind of fucking dumbass post is this?

if you remove duncan, the spurs may not even make the playoffs in some or all of the years they won it all with manu on the team.

[Phillip]

I'd say Kobe is stronger and more athletic than Manu, but Manu's agility is all-world. That makes him really, really effective.

i agree. his first step is sick.

[JayTheClown]

what kind of fucking dumbass post is this?

if you remove duncan, the spurs may not even make the playoffs in some or all of the years they won it all with manu on the team.


:lmao so so fucking true

[Phillip]

Debatable. Could not survive playoffs with Odom, Bynum and Phil until Gasol got there.

no shit. cant win a ring without someone to take the pressure off of you. Odom and Bynum at the time werent capable of that. Bynum MAY be now, although he gets hurt too much.

duncan probably wouldnt have won any rings without robinson or manu at his side for his rings.

jordan probably wouldnt have won any rings without pippen.

magic wouldnt have been winning rings without kareem.

[Phillip]

I am not sure I buy that one -Manu assuming he was healthy and playing a few more minutes would have most likely gotten the LAL out of the 1st round at least.

No knock on Kobe who is and has been better of course the better player; but the difference between the two as competitors and players is not that great and do not underestimate the value of how well Gasol and Manu would play together - they would throw crazy and effective passes around.

Some rankings to consider NOTE in one year at least by Hollinger's PER Manu was greater than Bryant:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west

1) Bryant 3) Manu

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west/year/2010 1) Manu higher than 2) Bryant.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west/year/2009

1) Bryant 3) Manu Roy is there and if healthy is certainly in the tier right below Bryant and Wade and alongside Manu IMO

i think you may set the record for spending more time trying to make a shit post look like it has quality. its like trying to remove chunks of nasty ass undigested food from a turd. no matter how much time you spend improving the quality of a piece of shit, it will always remain just that. shit. like your post.

[JR21]

:corn:

[diego]

i think manu is incredibly skilled. id say hes honestly about even to kobe in terms of skills, and in some ways he is even more skilled (his craftiness in getting to the rim is something ive never seen before), but physically, he is considerably inferior. if he had kobes athletic ability, id say he would be every bit as good or better than Kobe. unfortunately for him, he doesnt have that ability, and thats why he will never be better than a #2 option on a team that contends for a championship.

i agree with this, the main difference is physical- manu doesnt have the strength and stamina of a great franchise player like kobe. though I would add that for spurts manu can play better than anyone else on the planet, as he has in the 04 olympics, 05 playoffs, and stretches of the 07-08/09-10 seasons.

even if talking just about this season so far, manu's recent slump deflates the argument before it even starts.

[Rummpd]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/sg/league/west

Revised

Kobe 1 Manu 2 in shooting guards in the West. Kobe is the better player and deserves fully the start but Manu deserves a spot and the gap between the 2 is less than LAL homers realize. Last year Manu had a player efficiency rating > than Bryant and also in head to head competition over the last 3-4 years has had a number of similar stat lines to that of Bryant. The main difference is flatly that Bryant is more durable and plays more minutes.

[Phillip]

i like to post high quality shit

[Dayum78]

Big Z and Shaq are the only two significant minutes-getters that left. Jamison, Mo Williams, Varejao, JJ Hickson, Boobie Gibson, Anthony Parker... they're all there. They also added Sessions. Went from best record in the league to worst.

Varejao is injured. Before he went down they had a winning record and was above miami for a cool minute. Big Z and Shaq is a big shoe to be filled and you expect jj and jamison to fill that role?

[Rummpd]

Dear Phillip ala Mavs fan:

You only wish the Mavs had or could pick up either a Bryant or Manu instead of the non winning over-hyped wannabees the Mavs have put out at guard over the years - either one of these two would have assured the great Dirk would not go ringless.

[Greg Oden]

:jack

[hater]

Dear Phillip ala Mavs fan:

You only wish the Mavs had or could pick up either a Bryant or Manu instead of the non winning over-hyped wannabees the Mavs have put out at guard over the years - either one of these two would have assured the great Dirk would not go ringless.

I would be nicer to mavfan if I were you. Carlisle is about to unleash French Zeus up on this biatch

[urunobili]

lol Phillip in denial
CROFL all non Spurs fans trolled by the thread

[ElNono]

Varejao is injured. Before he went down they had a winning record and was above miami for a cool minute. Big Z and Shaq is a big shoe to be filled and you expect jj and jamison to fill that role?

JJ Hickson played more minutes than both Shaq and Big Z last season, when they had the best record in the NBA. Heck, Anthony Parker played more minutes than both combined. Jamison is a good player. I don't think that's up to debate.
Sure, the Varejao injury hurts, but he's no franchise player either. That team was Lebron and a bunch of scrubs. Now we definitely know.

[Phillip]

Dear Phillip ala Mavs fan:

shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post shit post .

[Phillip]

im stupid

[Phillip]

lol Phillip in denial
CROFL all non Spurs fans trolled by the thread

where is the denial? you expect me to say that manu is equally athletic to kobe?

stupid smelly argie

lol hitler lover

[ElNono]

:cry

:sleep

[Phillip]

im stupid

[ElNono]

:cry

:sleep

[Phillip]

im stupid

[ElNono]

:cry:cry

:sleep

[Phillip]

im stupid

[Blake]

Dear Phillip ala Mavs fan:

You only wish the Mavs had or could pick up either a Bryant or Manu instead of the non winning over-hyped wannabees the Mavs have put out at guard over the years - either one of these two would have assured the great Dirk would not go ringless.

yes!

high five, dude!

:flag::flag::flag:

[ElNono]

:cry

:sleep

[jjktkk]

Spurs fans think I'm a faggot.

[Phillip]

yes!

high five, dude!

:flag::flag::flag:

rofl

some spurfans just disappoint you, eh?

[jjktkk]

rofl

some spurfans just disappoint you, eh?

Absolutely. Any Mav fans disappoint you Phillip?

[Phillip]

Absolutely. Any Mav fans disappoint you Phillip?

around these parts, very few.