The truth about Kobe's reputation as a clutch player

[Pedobear1]

Laker fans, I warn you, do not read this.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time


Bryant has racked up almost as many airballs as makes
Bryant shoots more than most, passes less, and racks up misses at an all-time rate.
When Bryant is on the floor in crunch time, Bryant's Lakers are actually outscored by their opponents (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/columns/story?columnist=haberstroh_tom&page=KobeLeBronclutch-101222).

There are a number of other things everyone here should read.

While I'm typing this, I gotta give credit to Chris Paul...





That's not what happens, though. In the final 24 seconds of close games the Laker offense regresses horribly, managing just 82 points per 100 possessions. And it's not a simple case of every team having a hard time scoring in crunch time. Over Bryant's career, 11 teams have had better crunch time offenses, led by the Hornets with a shocking 107 points per 100 possessions in crunch time, a huge credit to Chris Paul (http://www.nba.com/2011/news/features/john_schuhmann/01/27/hornets-chris-paul-clutch/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1). I'd love to hear some of these claims disputed...but most liekly gonna get butthurt Laker fans who can't back up their arguments tbh..

[Ashy Larry]

Pretty good article by Abbott ....most Laker fans will flip out. to be expected but it's whatever. Bean has had his moments but he has missed more than he makes.

[j.dizzle]

Still would take him in the last few minutes over anybody in the league. You gotta have balls & no fear of criticism to get to the top.

[TheMACHINE]

Laker fans, I warn you, do not read this.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/24200/the-truth-about-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time



There are a number of other things everyone here should read.

While I'm typing this, I gotta give credit to Chris Paul...



I'd love to hear some of these claims disputed...but most liekly gonna get butthurt Laker fans who can't back up their arguments tbh..

good read.

[JamStone]

Really good article. Better statistical information proving Kobe's unclutchness than most articles in the past.

Actually makes it quite surprising the amount of success the Lakers have had considering how unclutch their offense is in crunchtime.

[TheNextGen]

Laker fans, I warn you, do not read this.


I'd love to hear some of these claims disputed...but most liekly gonna get butthurt Laker fans who can't back up their arguments tbh..

The NoobTroll trying to troll Lakers fans but failing miserably.

[redzero]

But Kobe has five championships, so he's clutch.

[DPG21920]

I don't see how it's trolling. It takes reputation out of the equation and looks at the facts. Many people have argued this point (and met a ton of resistance) for a while now.

Doesn't mean Kobe can't get it done, just means that the shadow is bigger than the body.

[Pedobear1]

The NoobTroll trying to troll Lakers fans but failing miserably.


? Just showing that Kobe isn't as clutch as people here like to claim he is...

I'm shocked most of them are accepting the reality. Until cully comes with his

Duncan: 4

Kobe: 5

tee,hee

etc.

tbh

[JamStone]

Abbott does throw Kobe an olive branch in the article so it's not all Kobe bashing. But he also uses this quasi-praise in explaining how Kobe's perception of being clutch is skewed.


The makes
Nobody playing today has a crunch time résumé with half the excitement, or sheer bulk, of Bryant's: A banked 3 against Miami in 2009. Two ridiculous plays in Game 4 in that 2006 playoff series against the Suns. Making the Celtics' great defense look meaningless. Those four shots would make a career for most All-Stars. They are a mere eighth of Bryant's best moments.

Respect the brute force of numbers. If you want to see someone who has proven he can hit big buckets, nobody can rival his collected works. That speaks to his preparation, his dedication, the trust his teammates have in him, and more subtle things like how his training regimen has kept him healthy and productive for such a long time.

At all times he's cool as hell. At all times he's polished, fearless, ruthless even. Most of the time he's double-teamed. The shots are impossibly difficult. It's intimidating. He looks like a robot of crunch time destruction, if robots could jump really high, shoot really well and scowl really hard.

Nobody can match that. And so we live in a world where Bryant has been appointed king of all crunch time and it's not hard to see why.

And well worth noting is that over that period he has clearly been one of the best players in the world, period, leading a team that has won five championships and has the potential to win more.

Bryant's absolutely the best in the world at the game of winning the hearts and minds of crunch time. A lot goes into it: creating shots against any defense, staying calm, ignoring fear and more. It's about who most has the rest of the league by the throat. In that game, it's cowardly to pass the ball, and misses are merely the cost of doing business. In that game, degree of difficulty counts.

That game, though, is not basketball.

In basketball, entrusting the ball to the open teammate really does benefit the team. Remember when Jordan passed to a wide open Bill Wennington in the lane? Or to Steve Kerr or John Paxson in the Finals?

[Pedobear1]

I don't see how it's trolling. It takes reputation out of the equation and looks at the facts. Many people have argued this point (and met a ton of resistance) for a while now.

Doesn't mean Kobe can't get it done, just means that the shadow is bigger than the body.

Exactly...DPG gets it..

If I had 3 chances to win the game at the end of a game, I'd let Kobe do it...

If I only had 1, I'd go with 'Melo..

[TheNextGen]

I don't see how it's trolling. It takes reputation out of the equation and looks at the facts. Many people have argued this point (and met a ton of resistance) for a while now.

Doesn't mean Kobe can't get it done, just means that the shadow is bigger than the body.

its trolling when you make a thread expecting to get butthurt responses as stated by the OP.

[TheMACHINE]

Exactly...DPG gets it..

If I had 3 chances to win the game at the end of a game, I'd let Kobe do it...

If I only had 1, I'd go with 'Melo..

Well good for you!

[DPG21920]

No, it's not trolling. In fact, if anything, it's reverse trolling by Laker fans who are trying their best to sound "impartial" when they really want to argue because they are Kobe fans :lol

[j.dizzle]

LOL nobody would take Melo, theres a reason why his team has never won shit. He's a mental midget & collapses when the going gets tough haha.

[TheNextGen]

No, it's not trolling. In fact, if anything, it's reverse trolling by Laker fans who are trying their best to sound "impartial" when they really want to argue because they are Kobe fans :lol

oh god..reverse trolling = OP troll fail.

get with the program DPG.

[TheMACHINE]

oh god..reverse trolling = OP troll fail.

get with the program DPG.

ahh the counter troll method. ftw

[DPG21920]

LOL nobody would take Melo, theres a reason why his team has never won shit. He's a mental midget & collapses when the going gets tough haha.

Again with the perception. When you look at the clutch numbers, Melo>Kobe.

Just because Kobe has stacked teams, and hogs every clutch shot, doesn't make him better. It makes him a chucker.

Kobe was missing the playoffs before Gasol arrived, why wasn't he "winning shit" then?

[TheMACHINE]

Again with the perception. When you look at the clutch numbers, Melo>Kobe.

Just because Kobe has stacked teams, and hogs every clutch shot, doesn't make him better. It makes him a chucker.

Kobe was missing the playoffs before Gasol arrived, why wasn't he "winning shit" then?

why wasnt melo?

[DPG21920]

Melo was maximizing what he was getting from his team. They were making playoff runs, even though he didn't win a title.

That still doesn't change the fact that by all factual evidence, Melo is > Kobe in the clutch as defined by the article.

[TheMACHINE]

That still doesn't change the fact that by all factual evidence, Melo is > Kobe in the clutch as defined by the article.

Sweet!

[DPG21920]

Melo hasn't missed the playoffs IIRC. Kobe has.

[Pedobear1]

its trolling when you make a thread expecting to get butthurt responses as stated by the OP.

:lmao

I was trolling by posting an article that's featured on ESPN on an NBA discussion forum?...

Most Laker fans here get butthurt whenever people talk about Kobe, I was merely predicting the reactions tbh...


Also, j.dizzle, you would take Kobe in the clutch over Melo? Did you read the article or was it too long :lol

Kobe is so easy to guard in the clutch because he's very predictable...he gets the ball, he's gonna shoot, and less than 1/3 of those shots is gonna go in...

[DPG21920]

Sweet!

:lol If you don't want to discuss the merits of the article, why are you in here?

[TheMACHINE]

Props to Melo for being more clutch then Kobe!!!

[TheGreatest23]

lol DPG seems like he is about to cry.

[DPG21920]

Props to Melo for being more clutch then Kobe!!!

Here is some of that anger from Kobe fan starting to surface. :lol We knew they couldn't hold out long.

I'm impressed they lasted 6 minutes tbh.

[Jelloisjigglin]

Melo was maximizing what he was getting from his team. They were making playoff runs, even though he didn't win a title.

That still doesn't change the fact that by all factual evidence, Melo is > Kobe in the clutch as defined by the article.

I've wanted the Lakers to trade his anti clutch ass for years. Tired of this scrub.

[j.dizzle]

Again with the perception. When you look at the clutch numbers, Melo>Kobe.

Just because Kobe has stacked teams, and hogs every clutch shot, doesn't make him better. It makes him a chucker.

Kobe was missing the playoffs before Gasol arrived, why wasn't he "winning shit" then?
:lol Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook etc. Come on son, atleast come back with something good. Melo has had stacked teams & hasnt won a damn thing. Kobe owns the Nuggets in the playoffs. "Jesus couldnt cover Kobe"- Coach Karl :lmao

[DPG21920]

lol DPG seems like he is about to cry.

It's because I'm typing this from the Quickens Loan Arena.

[Zelophehad]

Props to Melo for being more clutch then Kobe!!!

What, if anything, did you gather from reading that article?

[DPG21920]

I've wanted the Lakers to trade his anti clutch ass for years. Tired of this scrub.

Kobe is not a scrub and Kobe is definitely better than Melo. Just not in the "clutch" as outlined in the article.

[TheMACHINE]

Melo hasn't missed the playoffs IIRC. Kobe has.

Props to Melo never missing the playoffs! Hooray!!

[z0sa]

Lakerfan meltdown thread has commenced.

[redzero]

I was thinking about posting this article earlier, but I knew there would be a shitstorm.

[TheMACHINE]

Here is some of that anger from Kobe fan starting to surface. :lol We knew they couldn't hold out long.

I'm impressed they lasted 6 minutes tbh.

Props to DPG for knowing something!!! whoo hooo!

[jjktkk]

It can't be trolling when the Op is a Spurs fan. How can a Spurs fan troll on a Spurs fan website?

tee hee

[Zelophehad]

What, if anything, did you gather from reading that article?

[TinTin]

No, it's not trolling. In fact, if anything, it's reverse trolling by Laker fans who are trying their best to sound "impartial" when they really want to argue because they are Kobe fans :lol


ahh the counter troll method. ftw


why wasnt melo?

:lmao

[TheGreatest23]

lol spurs thinking there is a meltdown but lakers fan troll reversing the spurs fan.

Who in here is really gettig trolled? That is the question.

[DPG21920]

:lol Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook etc. Come on son, atleast come back with something good. Melo has had stacked teams & hasnt won a damn thing. Kobe owns the Nuggets in the playoffs. "Jesus couldnt cover Kobe"- Coach Karl :lmao

:lol Conveniently leaving off Caron Butler and Lamar Odom.

:lmao at calling Nene, Andre Miller & Camby stacked

[TheNextGen]

tbh, Nene, Miller and Camby > Odom and Butler in 2005.

[DPG21920]

They Stackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeddddddddddddddddd

[TheMACHINE]

They Stackkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkeddddddddddddddddd

tee hee

[DPG21920]

tbh, Nene, Miller and Camby > Odom and Butler in 2005.

:lol No.

[ChrisRichards]

Absolutely a great read. Exactly what these Kobe supporters needed/ A doze of reality.


I think Kobe's biggest enemy is the "Sin Of predictability" and more importantly his Poor Decision Making skills. That IMO has seperated the greater players of all time away from Kobe (Magic, Larry & Jordan).


Jordan knew when to trust his teammates ( Kerr & Paxson's GW shots in the Finals for once) Bird's inbound pass steal and assist to Dennis Johnson etc. I've been saying this for years but people would call me a troll and a hater.




"I sometimes think Kobe is so addicted to being in control that he would rather shoot the ball when guarded, or even double-teamed, than dish it to an open teammate," Jackson wrote in his 2004 book "The Last Season." "He is saying to himself: how can he trust anyone else? Well, he should learn to trust ..."




In one instance, he describes drawing up a play with multiple options, in crunch time of a 2004 playoff series against Houston. Bryant destroyed all the options; instead of setting a baseline screen for Shaquille O'Neal he ran straight to the ball. "With the twenty-four-second clock winding down," writes Jackson, "Kobe forced a long jumper, a horrible shot in the game's most critical possession. The ball did not reach the rim..."




"Kobe tends to hold on to the ball longer than necessary causing the offense to stagnate."
"He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
"As usual, Kobe seemed intent on taking over."
Those were quotes from Phil Jackson's book in 2004. I saw a lot of Kobe's games since then and unfortunately his thirst for personal glory has never changed, Kobe is still the same player 8 years ago. THe only difference is Shaq was not here anymore. Gasol, Odom & Ron Artest of all people has masked Kobe's failrues were it mattered the most. The NBA Finals.



I still think Kobe is a great player, I'd pick him over a lot of guys in todays era like Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas & Iverson because I have learned to respect his work ethic and his mental apporach to the game, but lets stop all these other illusions attached to Kobe's resume/legacy.


Kobe is not clutch. Kobe is not the player of this decade/Kobe is not the best player of his generation. Kobe is NOT half the player Jordan was. Kobe does not deserve to be in the Top 10 player list.



IMO Kobe is just like Clyde Drexler but the difference is Clyde never had the same type of role players Kobe had in his career.

[j.dizzle]

:lol Conveniently leaving off Caron Butler and Lamar Odom.

:lmao at calling Nene, Andre Miller & Camby stacked
Odom was a mental midget & appeared & disappeared whenever he felt like it. He's actually having his best season as a pro this year IMO. Props to Khloe for turning him into a better man lmao

[hater]

The truth:
getting bailed out by Shaq, Horry, Gasol, Ariza, Fisher when it matters.

[Booharv]

sqcgy6xLrEM

[TheMACHINE]

Absolutely a great read. Exactly what these Kobe supporters needed/ A doze of reality.


I think Kobe's biggest enemy is the "Sin Of predictability" and more importantly his Poor Decision Making skills. That IMO has seperated the greater players of all time away from Kobe (Magic, Larry & Jordan).


Jordan knew when to trust his teammates ( Kerr & Paxson's GW shots in the Finals for once) Bird's inbound pass steal and assist to Dennis Johnson etc. I've been saying this for years but people would call me a troll and a hater.


"I sometimes think Kobe is so addicted to being in control that he would rather shoot the ball when guarded, or even double-teamed, than dish it to an open teammate," Jackson wrote in his 2004 book "The Last Season." "He is saying to himself: how can he trust anyone else? Well, he should learn to trust ..."




In one instance, he describes drawing up a play with multiple options, in crunch time of a 2004 playoff series against Houston. Bryant destroyed all the options; instead of setting a baseline screen for Shaquille O'Neal he ran straight to the ball. "With the twenty-four-second clock winding down," writes Jackson, "Kobe forced a long jumper, a horrible shot in the game's most critical possession. The ball did not reach the rim..."




"Kobe tends to hold on to the ball longer than necessary causing the offense to stagnate."
"He won't listen to anyone. I've had it with this kid."
"As usual, Kobe seemed intent on taking over."

Those were quotes from Phil Jackson's book in 2004. I saw a lot of Kobe's games since then and unfortunately his thirst for personal glory has never changed, Kobe is still the same player 8 years ago.



I still think Kobe is a great player, I'd pick him over a lot of guys in todays era like Vince Carter, Gilbert Arenas & Iverson because I have learned to respect his work ethic and his mental apporach to the game, but lets stop all these other illusions attached to Kobe's resume/legacy.


Kobe is not clutch. Kobe is not the player of this decade/Kobe is not the best player of his generation. Kobe is NOT half the player Jordan was. Kobe does not deserve to be in the Top 10 player list.



IMO Kobe is just like Clyde Drexler but the difference is Clyde never had the same type of role players Kobe had in his career.

no one believes anything you say anymore. Go back to the NBA Forum thread list and you'll see why.

:lmao

[TheMACHINE]

sqcgy6xLrEM

busting out vintage ballhog kobe vids. Sweet!

[j.dizzle]

:lol ChrisRichards

[ChrisRichards]

no one believes anything you say anymore. Go back to the NBA Forum thread list and you'll see why.

:lmao
Machine, I see where your coming from. But don't let my welching creditbility affect you.

These are facts quoted from Phil Jackson himself. I didn't say those, I just passed it on.

[TheMACHINE]

Machine, I see where your coming from. But don't let my welching creditbility affect you.


:toast

[JamStone]

Everyone in the basketball universe already knows that Kobe is a ballhog, especially in a close game down the stretch. That's nothing new. And even many Laker fans and Kobe fanbois realize that Kobe's clutchness is exaggerated. But it's also not surprising that most GMs would still give the basketball to Kobe in crunchtime over any other player in the league. It's obviously not because of the clutch statistical information. The article showed that Kobe's a ballhog, takes bad shots, doesn't pass to teammates, and stagnates the offense in crunchtime. So why do all those GMs still give Kobe the ball?

It's because being clutch is not only defined by the numbers. And it's not just about the perception or reputation. It's because it's regarded that no one in the league works harder at his game than Kobe. it's because make or miss, Kobe has never showed the fear of taking a clutch shot, nor the fear of failing. It's because there isn't a defense of five guys that can force Kobe not to attempt a shot and have a chance for it to go in if Kobe has his mind set on shooting. It's because missing 100 clutch shots in a row won't stop Kobe from attempting 101.

The numbers don't lie. Kobe is not a great clutch player on offense. He shoots a poor percentage and he hurts the offense and doesn't make his teammates better. The article does a great job explaining all of this. The perception and reputation can only last so long. So why do all these GMs still want Kobe in crunchtime? It goes beyond the numbers. You don't give the basketball to Melo. You give it to Kobe. The numbers tell you not to give it to Kobe over Melo. But everything else tells you that's the right call.

[Jt.ONE]

Again with the perception. When you look at the clutch numbers, Melo>Kobe.

Just because Kobe has stacked teams, and hogs every clutch shot, doesn't make him better. It makes him a chucker.

Kobe was missing the playoffs before Gasol arrived, why wasn't he "winning shit" then?


reaching the playoffs with such a shitty cast is :king within itself


tbh, gasol wasn't doing shit in memphis anyway :toast

[ChrisRichards]

:lol ChrisRichards
Why are you laughing? Do you not agree with Phil Jackson and with the stats provided by ESPN?


Seriously? Its a great article by Abbott. I feel the timing though is pretty bad considering Kobe just came off two NBA Championship seasons but its a valid argument and I don't even hate Kobe. ESPN does have bias though towards Kobe and I think this article is unnecessary, like bringing quotes frm 2004 is dumb. The article is excellent but again the timing is way off. This would be good in 2006 not 2011.

[TheMACHINE]

Everyone in the basketball universe already knows that Kobe is a ballhog, especially in a close game down the stretch. That's nothing new. And even many Laker fans and Kobe fanbois realize that Kobe's clutchness is exaggerated. But it's also not surprising that most GMs would still give the basketball to Kobe in crunchtime over any other player in the league. It's obviously not because of the clutch statistical information. The article showed that Kobe's a ballhog, takes bad shots, doesn't pass to teammates, and stagnates the offense in crunchtime. So why do all those GMs still give Kobe the ball?

It's because being clutch is not only defined by the numbers. And it's not just about the perception or reputation. It's because it's regarded that no one in the league works harder at his game than Kobe. it's because make or miss, Kobe has never showed the fear of taking a clutch shot, nor the fear of failing. It's because there isn't a defense of five guys that can force Kobe not to attempt a shot and have a chance for it to go in if Kobe has his mind set on shooting. It's because missing 100 clutch shots in a row won't stop Kobe from attempting 101.

The numbers don't lie. Kobe is not a great clutch player on offense. He shoots a poor percentage and he hurts the offense and doesn't make his teammates better. The article does a great job explaining all of this. The perception and reputation can only last so long. So why do all these GMs still want Kobe in crunchtime? It goes beyond the numbers. You don't give the basketball to Melo. You give it to Kobe. The numbers tell you not to give it to Kobe over Melo. But everything else tells you that's the right call.

Damn Jams..why you bringing logic into this thread? I was having fun. I wanted to see how long DPG will keep going this time around.

[TheMACHINE]

Why are you laughing? Do you not agree with Phil Jackson and with the stats provided by ESPN?


Seriously? Its a great article by Abbott. I feel the timing though is pretty bad considering Kobe just came off two NBA Championship seasons but its a valid argument and I don't even hate Kobe. ESPN does have bias though towards Kobe and I think this article is unnecessary, like bringing quotes frm 2004 is dumb. The article is excellent but again the timing is way off. This would be good in 2006 not 2011.

Phil Jackson? The guy who said all that shit and came back anyways and now is going for a three peat with Kobe? ok.

[Greg Oden]

tbh, gasol wasn't doing shit in memphis anyway :toast

Actually he was quite busy in Memphis crying for a trade after realizing his sorry ass couldn't win 1 playoff game despite having a good supporting cast.

[jestersmash]

Overall cumulative "clutch PER" per 82games

1. Ginobili 39.0
2. Stoudemire 36.2
3. Nash 35.4
4. Wade 33.7
5. Nowitzki 32.3
...
8. Lebron
...
...
...
20. Ridnour 19.2 <--- :lmao
21. Bryant 19.0


NBA.com feature on clutch players -

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html

[hater]

Lmao

[z0sa]

The knowledgeable basketball world realized a long, long time ago that Kobe warrants the description of "overrated superego chucker." Sometime around June 2004 is when it really became clear.

[j.dizzle]

TBH, Jam >>> ESPN. We all know why this article was written. Anti-Kobe articles get a ton of attention. Like CR said, this was terrible timing though.

[ChrisRichards]

Phil Jackson? The guy who said all that shit and came back anyways and now is going for a three peat with Kobe? ok.
Like I said, great article but Abbott made a huge mistake quoting Phil Jackon in 2004. Sure Kobe's still a ballhog but you don't use the Last Book as your reference to prove your point TODAY especially when Kobe has proved he can still win and the person who said those had a change of heart, at leat publicly.

[DPG21920]

Damn, Machine, why don't you make another sig bet to calm your nerves or something :lol

[Rummpd]

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html

Manu anyone - over a 5 year period he was the most clutch player in the NBA by these stats at least! (Bryant not even close)

[jestersmash]

Truth be told Kobe has had his fair share of clutch shots this season so far, albeit not at a terribly good rate. He took a couple of awful ones early on but he's made up for it, sort of.

He leads the league in points scored during the "clutch" per 48 minutes, but his FG% is markedly less than his usual shooting average -

http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/8205/clutchstats.jpg

Notice of the top 15 or so "clutch" players by points scored per 48 minutes, Kobe and Lebron have the lowest FG% by far (38.5 and 33.3, respectively).

Kobe does have a nice assist to turnover ratio, though. Dirk's ratio is < 1 in the clutch. Stoudemire's is just awful.

[TheMACHINE]

Damn, Machine, why don't you make another sig bet to calm your nerves or something :lol

Should i reserve you for the next Spurs-Lakers game?

[redzero]

TBH, Jam >>> ESPN. We all know why this article was written. Anti-Kobe articles get a ton of attention. Like CR said, this was terrible timing though.

So, you disagree with the content of the article?

[DPG21920]

Damn Jams..why you bringing logic into this thread? I was having fun. I wanted to see how long DPG will keep going this time around.

:lol Sure you backpedaling Kobe fan. I was arguing about the article, please point out where I was wrong and Jam is right?

Of course you think someone defending Kobe is correct :lmao and try to play off your butthurt and piggy back someone elses argument because you weren't smart enough to articulate one yourself.

Classic Machine/Laker Fan.

[jestersmash]

I think if you rated the clutch players this season by efficiency, Kevin Martin might actually take the top spot. That's just based on a rough estimate. He shoots phenomenal percentages from the field and from 3, though he's not much of a team player in the clutch (0 assists to 2.8 turnovers)

[DPG21920]

Laker fan:


Jam is so awesome and smart, that is exactly what I meant when I said "Look at the scrub Melo :lol :lol :lol"

[TheMACHINE]

:lol Sure you backpedaling Kobe fan. I was arguing about the article, please point out where I was wrong and Jam is right?

Of course you think someone defending Kobe is correct :lmao and try to play off your butthurt and piggy back someone elses argument because you weren't smart enough to articulate one yourself.

Classic Machine/Laker Fan.

February 3 - we on for a sig bet muchacho?

[DPG21920]

No, I don't do sig bets. That is your thing. That is too "internetty" for me.

[Rummpd]

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/05/clutch.numbersgame/index.html

Manu in the mix as well for a 5 year period and even better I am sure this year - as for Bryant not even in the ballpark. (He is very dangerous though in the last 5 minutes just ask him or any Laker fan)

[DPG21920]

The thing is while I understand what Jam meant, it really doesn't matter overall because all of the guys being compared have shown the consistent willingness to do clutch things. Difference is, they make the right basketball plays and convert at a much higher clip.

[ChrisRichards]

56 FGA-1 Assist

KObe aint passing shit :lol

[TheNextGen]

No, I don't do sig bets. That is your thing. That is too "internetty" for me.

http://willowridge.shs.k12.ny.us/WR_Teacher_Pages/sarnackij/01674679-00758307.2/chicken-0011.jpg

[Phillip]

I don't see how it's trolling. It takes reputation out of the equation and looks at the facts. Many people have argued this point (and met a ton of resistance) for a while now.

the truth right there. just like the "reputation" by many ignorant people that dirk is a soft choker, even though he has been consistently clutch through his career. or the "reputation" that KG is some great leader, when in fact he often shied away from big shots in games and far more often than not, had mediocre performances when he was most needed (especially in Minny where he was the #1 guy)

[z0sa]

It's because being clutch is not only defined by the numbers. And it's not just about the perception or reputation. It's because it's regarded that no one in the league works harder at his game than Kobe. it's because make or miss, Kobe has never showed the fear of taking a clutch shot, nor the fear of failing. It's because there isn't a defense of five guys that can force Kobe not to attempt a shot and have a chance for it to go in if Kobe has his mind set on shooting. It's because missing 100 clutch shots in a row won't stop Kobe from attempting 101.

What a clever euphemism. I mean, you basically just wrote off the majority of of Kobe's problems in the clutch (being an ego-infested ballhog) as being good. Bravo you.

Kobe: Always ready for that 101st clutch FGA, even if it shouldn't be this close and you'll probably miss.

[DPG21920]

the truth right there. just like the "reputation" by many ignorant people that dirk is a soft choker, even though he has been consistently clutch through his career. or the "reputation" that KG is some great leader, when in fact he often shied away from big shots in games and far more often than not, had mediocre performances when he was most needed (especially in Minny where he was the #1 guy)

Exactly. This doesn't mean Kobe isn't a better overall player than many of the guys listed against him in these metrics or that no one fears Kobe in the last minute of a close game, it simply sheds light on the facts and the truth of the matter.

[TheGreatest23]

Spurs fans rejoicing! Down with Kobe, the Spurs killer!

[DPG21920]

No one is rejoicing, we are simply partaking in a basketball discussion relevant to the topic at hand. I know, that is a rarity around here.

[j.dizzle]

So, you disagree with the content of the article?
I dont disagree it with it but its obvious the writer is just trying to get some attention. LOL coming out with this after Kobe leads LA to to the finals three years straight. Who the hell would pass up a big shot to Odom, Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown etc. :lmao. Kobe still takes bad shots at times but he's a lot better at getting his teammates involved now because he actually trusts the ones he has now. Ron-Ron missed 2-3 wide open buzzer beaters last season but Kobe still kept passing him the ball & it paid off in game 7 when he hit the biggest shot of his life.:toast

[kamikazi_player]

Good read tbqh. Good to actually see some discussions and not some homer type arguments :lol

[z0sa]

Kobe still takes bad shots at times but he's a lot better at getting his teammates involved now because he actually trusts the ones he has now.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Usual kobmefan bullshit. It was the lack of trust that made him miss so many late game shots!


Ron-Ron missed 2-3 wide open buzzer beaters last season but Kobe still kept passing him the ball & it paid off in game 7 when he hit the biggest shot of his life.:toast

Does anyone besides lakerfan remember anything about that Game 7 besides 6-24 and 27 4th q FTAs? I mean any self respecting basketball fan when I say "anyone."

[Cry Havoc]

Everyone in the basketball universe already knows that Kobe is a ballhog, especially in a close game down the stretch. That's nothing new. And even many Laker fans and Kobe fanbois realize that Kobe's clutchness is exaggerated. But it's also not surprising that most GMs would still give the basketball to Kobe in crunchtime over any other player in the league. It's obviously not because of the clutch statistical information. The article showed that Kobe's a ballhog, takes bad shots, doesn't pass to teammates, and stagnates the offense in crunchtime. So why do all those GMs still give Kobe the ball?

I don't know. Why did Manu Ginobili go late in the 2nd round of the draft? Why did the Spurs get DeJuan Blair as a 37th pick? Why did probably 90% of GMs pick the Lakers to beat your Pistons in 2004?


It's because being clutch is not only defined by the numbers.

Neither is public opinion. Which is why Camby has more DPoY awards than Duncan.


And it's not just about the perception or reputation.

A lot of it is, though.


It's because it's regarded that no one in the league works harder at his game than Kobe. it's because make or miss, Kobe has never showed the fear of taking a clutch shot, nor the fear of failing.

You could say the same thing about 15 other superstars in the league. You think Blake Griffin (a rookie) would shy away from having the ball in his hands in the final 15 seconds? Manu? Derrick Rose? Melo? Do you think any of these guys would ever think twice before shooting the game winner?


It's because there isn't a defense of five guys that can force Kobe not to attempt a shot and have a chance for it to go in if Kobe has his mind set on shooting.

It's really not hard to get a shot off when you are so self-centered that you think you can hit from 28 feet out when you have open teammates on the 3 point line. Joe Schmoe from the local YMCA could get off half-court shots if he wanted to without getting them blocked, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.


The numbers don't lie. Kobe is not a great clutch player on offense. He shoots a poor percentage and he hurts the offense and doesn't make his teammates better. The article does a great job explaining all of this. The perception and reputation can only last so long. So why do all these GMs still want Kobe in crunchtime? It goes beyond the numbers. You don't give the basketball to Melo. You give it to Kobe. The numbers tell you not to give it to Kobe over Melo. But everything else tells you that's the right call.

If 1,000,000 people say a dumb thing, it is still a dumb thing. The volume of people saying something give no weight to it's authenticity if they cannot back up their opinions with SOME kind of scientific facts. The NBA is still functioning in the post-Jordan era, and as a result people still look to the SG with the most star power as a "go-to guy" above everyone else.

But it's a mystique. It's not built on actual empirical evidence, but rather a skewed perception.

If you put Wade, Melo, Kobe, Manu, and Chris Paul on the court together, and you need a bucket to win the game with 10 seconds left, Kobe is going to be, at best, the 4th guy to get the ball. The fact that he simply refuses to pass in the dying moments of a loss shows how many GMs out there are idiots when they say they'd give him the ball, because he could be triple-teamed and would rather take a falling 26 footer than pass the ball to someone who's got a much better look at it. You can argue the intangibles all you want, and if Kobe was CLOSE (say, within percentage point or two), then you might be able to make a convincing argument for him.

But he's not. And the NBA (at it's worst) is still little more than a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 contest with a bunch of decent players and scrubs thrown in the mix. When Jordan superseded his team and the entire league, he put instilled an almost mythological reverence for the individual, and Kobe is the ultimate embodiment of that. GMs look at him as the go-to because he carries that alpha-male me vs. the entire world status better than anyone. But basketball is a STILL a team game, and a guy who refuses to pass the ball in crunch time means it's a bad decision to give him the ball, GMs be damned.

[Cry Havoc]

the truth right there. just like the "reputation" by many ignorant people that dirk is a soft choker, even though he has been consistently clutch through his career. or the "reputation" that KG is some great leader, when in fact he often shied away from big shots in games and far more often than not, had mediocre performances when he was most needed (especially in Minny where he was the #1 guy)

I think most real basketball fans (when not trolling Mavs fans) abandoned the thought that Dirk is soft or a choker a long time ago.

[TheMACHINE]

5 rings bitch

[redzero]

You can criticize Kobe for 6-24, but all those free throws for the Lakers were the Celtics' fault. They made incredibly stupid fouls in the fourth, probably in part because they weren't getting anything offensively.

[TheMACHINE]

You can criticize Kobe for 6-24, but all those free throws for the Lakers were the Celtics' fault. They made incredibly stupid fouls in the fourth, probably in part because they weren't getting anything offensively.

plus the fouls the cetics were doing in the 4th were straight out lazy and obvious. Dumb ass fouls.

[Mugen]

David Stern/ESPN has spent a great deal of time creating this image of Kobe for a long, long time. Perception rarely equals reality.

Do I fear Kobe in the clutch? Sure because hes a great player who has a good chance of making even the most highly contested attempts.

But i don't fear him anymore than I would fear Manu, Dirk, Wade, Melo, even Fish, etc.

[Veterinarian]

5 rings bitch

Its at this point where the Machine effectively gave up.

[Pedobear1]

Such a thought-provoking article...

Who was the Laker fan that asked "Why is he coming out with this after Kobe led his team to 3 straight Finals"? Should that make him immune from all criticism?

Now, on to the real subject, can I get my thread-starting privileges back on Gutter plz thx

[ambchang]

GMs voting for Kobe because they are afraid Kobe will rat them out to police about them womanizing.

True story.

[JamStone]

I don't know. Why did Manu Ginobili go late in the 2nd round of the draft? Why did the Spurs get DeJuan Blair as a 37th pick? Why did probably 90% of GMs pick the Lakers to beat your Pistons in 2004?

Because the Spurs were ahead of their time in the NBA with their international scouting. Surprising the Kings didn't take a chance on Manu instead of spending the #45 pick on Ryan Robertson. Even then, it wasn't much of a gamble on the Spurs part. And it's not like they had the premonition that Manu would be as good as he turned out. Otherwise, don't you think they would have selected him with the last pick in that draft instead of taking Leon Smith?

DeJuan Blair is a 6-foot-5 power forward with no ACLs. His production warranted getting selected higher. Actual production isn't the only thing GMs look at when they draft players.

I think your point was something to the effect that some things are just not easily explained. Yet you asked two questions that are easily explained to analogize why GMs still would take Kobe in crunchtime. Poor comparisons.


I'll get to the rest of your post in a little bit...

[jjktkk]

Spurs fans rejoicing! Down with Kobe, the Spurs killer!

Your trolling skills really needs some work weaksauce. I'm here to lend you hand.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/4895/trollingfordummies.jpg

[Phillip]

I think most real basketball fans (when not trolling Mavs fans) abandoned the thought that Dirk is soft or a choker a long time ago.

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Only people who follow Dirk closely and pay attention abandoned that though. Generally a lot of Spurs fans in recent years have come to aknowledge that, but not fans of most other fanbases.

[Gutter92]

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Only people who follow Dirk closely and pay attention abandoned that though. Generally a lot of Spurs fans in recent years have come to aknowledge that, but not fans of most other fanbases.

What he means is, people that have eyes and watch games can see that Dirk is a clutch player

[Cry Havoc]

unfortunately, that's not the case. Only people who follow dirk closely and pay attention abandoned that though. Generally a lot of spurs fans in recent years have come to aknowledge that, but not fans of most other fanbases.

\/ \/ \/


what he means is, people that have eyes and watch games can see that dirk is a clutch player

[jjktkk]

Unfortunately, that's not the case. Only people who follow Dirk closely and pay attention abandoned that though. Generally a lot of Spurs fans in recent years have come to aknowledge that, but not fans of most other fanbases.

True fans know Dirk isn't a choke artist. Until Butler's injury, I thought this was the most talented Mavs team since Dirks been there, talented as far as their defensive ability. Getting Chandler was a great move, although, because of big money Hayword riding the pine, an expensive one. The Mavs are still in the picture though, but they need to shore up that 3 spot.

[Cry Havoc]

I think your point was something to the effect that some things are just not easily explained. Yet you asked two questions that are easily explained to analogize why GMs still would take Kobe in crunchtime. Poor comparisons.

I'll get to the rest of your post in a little bit...

No, things are very easily explained. GMs as a whole make a lot of bad decisions and 9 times out of 10 will draft someone with talent ahead of everything else.

There is a huge difference between paying attention to basketball and being a student of the game. Would YOU want the ball in Kobe's hands in crunchtime, Jamstone? Ahead of CP3, Wade, Manu, Melo, Dirk, and Durant?

[DMC]

Props to Melo for being more clutch then Kobe!!!
Props to you for not knowing the difference between "then" and "than".

[DMC]

The reason we remember MJ passing to Kerr or Paxon or anyone else is because we didn't expect it.

[Gutter92]

The reason we remember MJ passing to Kerr or Paxon or anyone else is because we didn't expect it.


lol

according to the article, the reason we remember any gamewinners kobe made are cause we didn't expect them to go in :lmao

[JamStone]

Neither is public opinion. Which is why Camby has more DPoY awards than Duncan.

I would say the perception of being clutch can be "public opinion" and I think you would agree as much.

Using numbers is not public opinion, but nor is it the end-all, be-all in a discussion of something that can be subjective like "clutchness." Statistics are great, especially for a foundation for an argument, but to rely only on numbers isn't always the best way to go. I think most people agree with that.



A lot of it is, though.

Some, sure. A lot, maybe. I don't know. Didn't Kobe hit something like 7 game winning shots last season? Recent history actually supports Kobe's clutchness more than takes away from it, even if you consider game 7 of the NBA Finals. Perception is generally based on something, generally facts. If Kobe only hit one clutch in his entire career and people still talked about his clutchness, then you'd have a point. But even Abbott himself admitted that Kobe having such a large resume of clutch shots helps magnify the perception. It's based on something. Kobe has a lot of made clutch shots in his career.




You could say the same thing about 15 other superstars in the league. You think Blake Griffin (a rookie) would shy away from having the ball in his hands in the final 15 seconds? Manu? Derrick Rose? Melo? Do you think any of these guys would ever think twice before shooting the game winner?

Maybe about showing no fear, but when it comes to work ethic and improving his game, Kobe is pretty much regarded as the most fanatic about maintaining and improving his game.

But ok. I'll add to that comment then. Kobe's lack of fear on taking shots doesn't only border, but crosses the line of irrationally. Kobe will take shots even other cold blooded assassin players like Manu or Rose will pass up because the defense forces them to. It's that irrational, illogical confidence and lack of fear for missing or failure that does distinguish Kobe. And, no, it's not really a compliment. Kobe takes horribly dumb shots at time because of the confidence in his talent and skill. Sometimes, it's a really bad thing because he'll ignore wide open teammates. But that's who Kobe is. That's his mentality. That's his confidence. That's his ego. I'm not saying it's a good thing.




It's really not hard to get a shot off when you are so self-centered that you think you can hit from 28 feet out when you have open teammates on the 3 point line. Joe Schmoe from the local YMCA could get off half-court shots if he wanted to without getting them blocked, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Agreed. But Can Joe Shmo attempt a 30 food, fade-away jumper with three guys draped all over him, and still have a legitimate chance to make the shot? Like I just said above, I'm not saying it's a good quality to be like that. But it's that mentality that apparently many NBA GMs find valuable in those crunchtime moments.




If 1,000,000 people say a dumb thing, it is still a dumb thing. The volume of people saying something give no weight to it's authenticity if they cannot back up their opinions with SOME kind of scientific facts. The NBA is still functioning in the post-Jordan era, and as a result people still look to the SG with the most star power as a "go-to guy" above everyone else.

Disagree.

If 1,000,000 Laker fans with little knowledge of say a dumb thing, it's a still a dumb thing. If 27 or 28 (or however many it was) NBA GMs says something you think is dumb, then reconsider. GMs who are paid a lot of money to analyze the game, evaluate players, and build successful teams. If the vast majority of those people say something you think is dumb, maybe it's not as dumb as you think. There's more weight when those GMs say something regarding NBA basketball than if you took 1,000,000 people in say some island in the Pacific who have never watched the NBA before. There is a difference. It's not just any random group of people saying such.



But it's a mystique. It's not built on actual empirical evidence, but rather a skewed perception.

Sure, it's mystique. But it is built on "some" empirical evidence. Did Kobe not hit a bunch of game-winners last season? Has Kobe not had huge games and hit huge shots and made huge plays in the clutch before? You choose to focus on the percentage of his success versus the sheer number of successful clutch plays he's had. By sheer number, and this is even specifically touched upon in the article, Kobe's resume is the most impressive when it comes to crunchtime shots. The sheer number. It's not just a perception. It is skewed, but it is based on empirical evidence. You just view it one way. There are other ways to view it than just by looking at FG% in those situations. Other factors include how big the game was when he made the clutch shots, the opponents he made them against, the type of defense being played on him, other circumstances in the game.

If you look at just the "numbers," Kobe's 81 point performance trumps his 62 point performance against the Mavs in three quarters. However, when you look at the opponents and the fact Kobe put up 62 in three quarters against an elite team, most people on these boards would agree and have agreed that the 62 was more impressive.

Numbers, statistics don't always tell the entire story.



If you put Wade, Melo, Kobe, Manu, and Chris Paul on the court together, and you need a bucket to win the game with 10 seconds left, Kobe is going to be, at best, the 4th guy to get the ball.

4th best option, maybe. But with the exception of Manu, I bet the other 3 would defer to Kobe. We already saw that movie in 2008 in Beijing.



The fact that he simply refuses to pass in the dying moments of a loss shows how many GMs out there are idiots when they say they'd give him the ball, because he could be triple-teamed and would rather take a falling 26 footer than pass the ball to someone who's got a much better look at it. You can argue the intangibles all you want, and if Kobe was CLOSE (say, within percentage point or two), then you might be able to make a convincing argument for him.

You talked earlier about skewed perception. Kobe "simply refusing to pass in the dying moments" is also a skewed perception. When Kobe had ultimate confidence in his teammates, he has been a willing passer. Do you forget the alley-oop pass to Shaq against the Blazers? How about several other times during their threepeat run where Kobe drew in defenses and kicked out to guys like Fisher and Fox for the open jumper. This very year and even some last year, Kobe has made efforts to passing the ball to his teammates for wide open jumpers when the game was on the line. Artest and Farmar last year notably were given opportunities. We all know that Kobe has no problem passing it to Fisher if he's open in clutch situations. Is Kobe usually selfish? Yes. Absolutely. Is he "NEVER" willing to pass it to teammates in clutch situations? Skewed perception.

This "perception" and "reputation" that Kobe will never pass to teammates started around 2003 or 2004 when Kobe got tired of Shaq getting all the glory. Kobe was selfish. He tried to force superstardom on himself. He wasn't content being a Scottie Pippen. Then this "perception" and "reputation" manifested itself further after Shaq left because Kobe had Smush Parker, Luke Walton, Brian Cook, and Chris Mihm to pass it to. Sure he had Odom and Butler for one year. But those guys weren't the ones always being left open in crunchtime. Not saying Kobe isn't an egomaniacal and selfish player. He is. I'm saying as much as you are claiming skewed perception over his clutchness, there is skewed perception over how you view him as well.



But he's not. And the NBA (at it's worst) is still little more than a 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 contest with a bunch of decent players and scrubs thrown in the mix. When Jordan superseded his team and the entire league, he put instilled an almost mythological reverence for the individual, and Kobe is the ultimate embodiment of that. GMs look at him as the go-to because he carries that alpha-male me vs. the entire world status better than anyone. But basketball is a STILL a team game, and a guy who refuses to pass the ball in crunch time means it's a bad decision to give him the ball, GMs be damned.

Don't disagree with this last paragraph. It has plenty of truth in it. It's not the only reason why GMs would take Kobe. But I'm sure it carries part of the logic.

[DMC]

Does anyone remember when Tim Duncan passed out to Jacko for the three (a few times) in 05? Spurs fans do, but everyone remembers MJ to Kerr or Paxon and when. Just sayin'.

[JamStone]

No, things are very easily explained. GMs as a whole make a lot of bad decisions and 9 times out of 10 will draft someone with talent ahead of everything else.


Drafting talent is not the same thing as evaluating proven NBA talent.

GMs' evaluation of Kobe in the clutch is not the same thing as evaluating a college player or international teenager.



There is a huge difference between paying attention to basketball and being a student of the game. Would YOU want the ball in Kobe's hands in crunchtime, Jamstone? Ahead of CP3, Wade, Manu, Melo, Dirk, and Durant?

I take Kobe over each of those players with Dirk being very close behind. Dirk would present almost always present the best mismatch to exploit and would be able to get a quality shot against almost anyone with a good chance to make it. I take Kobe because he will get a shot off against anyone, against any defense, and still have a good chance to make it. I like his mentality and confidence in those situations. That's who I want to have the ball in his hands with the game on the line in crunchtime to win the game.

That being said, I wouldn't mind having any of the guys you mentioned have the ball in their hands in crunchtime with the game on the line.

[Killakobe81]

LOL I expected this to be here after i read the article ...

I dont think henry is a hater ...or that his article is way off base. I just hate the criteria he uses. I also dont think you can make these comparisons when a player like melo or Paul have been in few big games and have played a lot less seasons. Really what he should say these guys are more EFFICIENT in the clutch ...and I don't disagree.

GM's also do dumb stuff and though I think they are more credible and knowledgable than abbott, doesnt men they are right either. Manu for example is not listed. would anyone on here spur fan or not disagree that manu is almost as clutch as kobe?

And let me officially LOL at:
Webber, KG, eddie jones, Karl malone, Glen robinson, Felton, Francis, above them both.

1. Horry and Shaq used to clown Eddie jones for shrinking inthe clutch. part of why he was traded for Glen rice.
2. Many on here have riducled Karl malone for choking especially when the Malone vs. duncan debate comes up (ditto KG)
3. the rest of these guys havent amounted to squat so I won't waste a "bar" on those scrubs.

I agree with duncan, Lebron (to an extent) Melo, Paul ARE clutch ...and afew others. But this is a perfect example of why stats with no context are useless. The writer tried ...but just looking at this list is hilarious ...thanks for the laughs ...

[Zelophehad]

Does anyone remember when Tim Duncan passed out to Jacko for the three (a few times) in 05? Spurs fans do, but everyone remembers MJ to Kerr or Paxon and when. Just sayin'.

Well even if those were the only three times he did that, that still gives him three times as many assists as Kobe.

lol 1

[Killakobe81]

For the record, I have no problem with the article. this was his opinion he did some research and culled together some others and came to his conclusion. As Ashy said kobe has made plenty and missed plenty more ...so dont dispute any of this.

I just disagree with his premise. I read him pretty regularly and when he first brought this up he said if the fate of the universe rested on one player to take one shot he would use stats to make that choice. And his stats make him choose Melo. Really would even Nuggs fans choose melo?

In many walks of life that makes sense to just choose stats i just think sports and emotions, who do you trust or fear with a game on the line ...that matters.

But i cant fault him for that. Hie s a stat guy more power to him.

Me I want the guy who has done it the most. I would not choose a stock broker who has hit on 3 out 5 stoocks over the guy that hit on 30 out of 100. sure the first brooker has a better percentage ...but I want the guy who is proven and has done it more often.

would i take MJ over Kobe in that scenario? Of course! would i take horry? No even though he may have a great % i want the proven winners give me MJ, Kobe, Magic Bird etc i dont care what the stats say ...

[Killakobe81]

LOL using Henry's calculated stats to make an emotional rant about Kobe ...nice job CR!!!

[ChrisRichards]

I'll say this, Kobe is a clutch player, but he's not the clutchest. I'd take Ray Allen and Wade given the chance. But in the sake of fainess I'll also say the lists of players and its according percentage should not be used to determine a players true clutch value. Defensive plays and/or FT's are not taken into consideration. Abbott reached here and he sure did yank a lot of chains so he got his hits and a lot of traffic, mission accomplished.


I think what makes Kobe clutch is he doesn't defer from the idea of failure or missing a shot, his preparation and determination is top notch and he did made a whole lot of GW shots in his career so this is not a guy who just shoots with no returning dividends. Not a lot of player can miss that many shot and approach the next game winning opportunity as a fresh one. But what Kobe made great in the eyes of many also made his resume less impressive.



People should take note that players like Jalen Rose, Shawn Marion, & Raymond Felton are above players like Lebron, Kobe and even Ray Allen. That's pretty damning and disproportional IMO. Even Damon Stoudemire & Gelnn Robinson are above Kevin Garnett. I don't know when did you watch NBA but before KG became a Celtic, he was one of the best closers in the game and I'd pick him over, say Glenn Robinson for a GW shot 10 times out of 10.


Abbott made some great and objective points but he also had poor execution on the others. As I've mentioned before, using Phil's book in 2004 though true is not the best tool to prove a point. Its 2011 and the scar between the Kobe-Jackson relationship has somewhat healed. Additionally, using Kobe's failed GW shot as a rookie in 97 to also prove your claim is another failure.



But the truth remains. Kobe is a ballhog and he's the type of player that will not going to pass in closing seconds (something we've all known for more than a decade) although recently he has learned to trust his teammates more, especially Ron Artest & Derek Fisher and last but not the least he's not the best closer in the game and never has been despite what GM's and countless NBA players wishes us to believe. That being said, there are only 2-3 players I'd pick if I want to close the game in todays game. Kobe's right there but if I want to just win a game without the added flair, I'd take Wade, Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.

[Killakobe81]

I'll say this, Kobe is a clutch player, but he's not the clutchest. I'd take Ray Allen and Wade given the chance. But in the sake of fainess I'll also say the lists of players and its according percentage should not be used to determine a players true clutch value. Defensive plays and/or FT's are not taken into consideration. Abbott reached here and he sure did yank a lot of chains so he got his hits and a lot of traffic, mission accomplished.


I think what makes Kobe clutch is he doesn't defer from the idea of failure or missing a shot, his preparation and determination is top notch and he did made a whole lot of GW shots in his career so this is not a guy who just shoots with no returning dividends. Not a lot of player can miss that many shot and approach the next game winning opportunity as a fresh one. But what Kobe made great in the eyes of many also made his resume less impressive.



People should take note that players like Jalen Rose, Shawn Marion, & Raymond Felton are above players like Lebron, Kobe and even Ray Allen. That's pretty damning and disproportional IMO. Even Damon Stoudemire & Gelnn Robinson are above Kevin Garnett. I don't know when did you watch NBA but before KG became a Celtic, he was one of the best closers in the game and I'd pick him over, say Glenn Robinson for a GW shot 10 times out of 10.


Abbott made some great and objective points but he also had poor execution on the others. As I've mentioned before, using Phil's book in 2004 though true is not the best tool to prove a point. Its 2011 and the scar between the Kobe-Jackson relationship has somewhat healed. Additionally, using Kobe's failed GW shot as a rookie in 97 to also prove your claim is another failure.



But the truth remains. Kobe is a ballhog and he's the type of player that will not going to pass in closing seconds (something we've all known for more than a decade) although recently he has learned to trust his teammates more, especially Ron Artest & Derek Fisher and last but not the least he's not the best closer in the game and never has been despite what GM's and countless NBA players wishes us to believe. That being said, there are only 2-3 players I'd pick if I want to close the game in todays game. Kobe's right there but if I want to just win a game without the added flair, I'd take Wade, Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.

Though i might not agree with every line, this is the best and most balanced post I have seen you make since i have been here. I dont think he is a ballhog (especially now) ... but i think Kobe's supreme confidence in his own talent (ego) makes him take tough shots ...and that includes in the clutch as well. I have said many time I dont mind the number of shots Kobe takes especially in the clutch ...i just wished he took less difficult ones. Problem is he makes them sometimes so he keeps taking them ...

[ChrisRichards]

Kobe just needs to flip the script from time to time, just a little bit and the Lakers IMO will be harder to stop. With the game on the line and the Lakers down by 2-3, every coach and defender out there knows Kobe is going to close, so stopping him on game winning situations is not that hard.

[TheMACHINE]

Props to you for not knowing the difference between "then" and "than".

oh shiznit..grammer pulice in da houze

[jjktkk]

oh shiznit..grammer pulice in da houze

Machine your girl went on weightwatchers?:lol

[Giuseppe]

As long as it's:::

Kobe: 5

Duncan: 4

I'm fine.

[jestersmash]

I saw "last post Giuseppe" and already knew it was going to be about 5 > 4 before I even entered.

[ChrisRichards]

You need a new line old man!

[Giuseppe]

I saw "last post Giuseppe" and already knew it was going to be about 5 > 4 before I even entered.

Oh, you can count on it, daddy-O. I'm gonna pound this shit like trout meat. This, The Skunker & Neal raping that vomiting asshole.

Let us proceed...

[Giuseppe]

You need a new line old man!

Uh, uh. Only way I'll stop is if The Princess so ordains it.

Otherwise, go back and get your f'in shine box.

[Booharv]

Uh, uh. Only way I'll stop is if The Princess so ordains it.

Otherwise, go back and get your f'in shine box.

Serious question: did you read the article Cubby? If so what is your honest opinion of it? I'm guessing you went the Machine route ie; labeled the author a hater and dismissed it outright.

At the very least I think it shows that Kobe would be well served to pass the ball at end of game situations every once in a while to make the Lakers offense less predictable.

[TheMACHINE]

machine your girl went on weightwatchers?:lol

om nom nom!

[JamStone]

I'll say this, Kobe is a clutch player, but he's not the clutchest. I'd take Ray Allen and Wade given the chance. But in the sake of fainess I'll also say the lists of players and its according percentage should not be used to determine a players true clutch value. Defensive plays and/or FT's are not taken into consideration. Abbott reached here and he sure did yank a lot of chains so he got his hits and a lot of traffic, mission accomplished.

Circumstances might dictate who you would take though. If the team defending Ray Allen was doing a great night all night slipping or switching picks so Ray Allen couldn't get the basketball with a clean pass for a jumper, if he had to actually create his own shot off the dribble, would you take him in that situation over Kobe? If you're talking about coming off a couple staggered screens for a corner three pointer and you know he can get open against that defense and the team needed a three pointer, I'd take Ray Allen over Kobe in that situation. In most other scenarios, I'd take Kobe over Ray.

Similarly, if the game was a three point deficit and the team needed a three-pointer just to tie, I'd take Kobe over Wade. It's not that Wade can't make a game-tying three pointer, but I'd feel better about Kobe shooting it than Wade. But if you know the other team has been defending the jumper great all night and you needed a sure shot at the rim against a good interior defensive team, I like Wade actually being able to finish an and-one opportunity better than Kobe because Wade has a knack of making tough and sometimes weird shots through contact. I think circumstances like score and how much time is left and who is defending him and what is required to win the game all factor in who you'd want to win the game.

Kobe might not be the #1 choice in every single scenario you can think of in clutch situations, but he's high on the list in probably all of them. Need a three pointer, I'll take Kobe over most players that have higher three point percentages in crunchtime aside from maybe Ray Allen. With less than a second on the clock, I'll take Kobe in that situation. Down by only 1 with plenty of time for a dribble drive or a pull up jumper, give me Kobe over most right by Wade, Manu, and Dirk. Down two and a foul, I'll take Kobe at the free throw line up there after guys like Nash, Ray Allen, Dirk, and Chauncey.

Situation dictates. But you wouldn't feel uncomfortable with Kobe taking a shot in almost any clutch scenario, except maybe in the NBA Finals against a top defensive team. Lol.




But the truth remains. Kobe is a ballhog and he's the type of player that will not going to pass in closing seconds (something we've all known for more than a decade) although recently he has learned to trust his teammates more, especially Ron Artest & Derek Fisher and last but not the least he's not the best closer in the game and never has been despite what GM's and countless NBA players wishes us to believe. That being said, there are only 2-3 players I'd pick if I want to close the game in todays game. Kobe's right there but if I want to just win a game without the added flair, I'd take Wade, Ray Allen & Paul Pierce.

Pretty good summation. Don't necessarily agree with the end, but appreciate and respect that opinion. I already mentioned how different circumstances might change your mind about having Wade or Ray Allen as your guy in crunchtime. But I don't begrudge that opinion. Pierce is a pretty good call too. That being said, if you can think of all the clutch players in the league, including those you mentioned plus guys like Dirk and Manu and Chris Paul, it's not like you would overwhelmingly feel they should have the ball before Kobe in crunchtime. It's not like a huge difference, at least in my opinion. If you prefer Ray Allen because of his jumper, I can see that. If you prefer Wade because his ability to finish at the rim or make circus shots through contact better, I can understand that as well. If you prefer Dirk because of his height and the height of his release making it pretty much impossible to defend, I certainly can understand that. I don't think it's a huge difference though. As you suggested, regardless of his shooting percentage, Kobe would still be among the top guys you'd want in those crunchtime situations.


Really good post, CR.

[DPG21920]

Uh, uh. Only way I'll stop is if The Princess so ordains it.

Otherwise, go back and get your f'in shine box.

Uh Uh. Absolutely not on my watch. Your ass has no right. After The Extinction you are nothing round these parts and I'll be damned if you ever forget that on my watch. I will ferociously and tirelessly be there to make sure you remember that damn fact.

You are Extinct.

[Otaku]

Drafting talent is not the same thing as evaluating proven NBA talent.

GMs' evaluation of Kobe in the clutch is not the same thing as evaluating a college player or international teenager.




I take Kobe over each of those players with Dirk being very close behind. Dirk would present almost always present the best mismatch to exploit and would be able to get a quality shot against almost anyone with a good chance to make it. I take Kobe because he will get a shot off against anyone, against any defense, and still have a good chance to make it. I like his mentality and confidence in those situations. That's who I want to have the ball in his hands with the game on the line in crunchtime to win the game.

That being said, I wouldn't mind having any of the guys you mentioned have the ball in their hands in crunchtime with the game on the line.

That's exactly where you're wrong. The chance for the shot to go in is really awful. Just look at his FG% in the clutch.

[JamStone]

Fair enough. A "good chance" compared to any other player taking the same shot with the same defense on them. Kobe takes a lot of tough shots where he should just pass the ball instead to an open teammate. But if he's going to shoot a tough shot with great defense on him, he has a "good chance" of making it compared to any other player taking that same exact shot in the same exact situation.

[Otaku]

But selecting Kobe you're making it too easy to the defense to predict everything. He's gonna shoot, ok, just double or triple team him and that's it.

You give the ball to Manu or any other player, and there's that sense of impredictability that can destroy the defense balance, and in the end, can make you win the game (no matter who effectively shoots the last ball).

[Veterinarian]

Little disappointed it took 4,500 words for Jamstone to get around to slobbing Kobe's knob. We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, he should have just got it out of the way early and saved us all the time.

[DPG21920]

I think Jam is underrating the ability of NBA players to chuck up bad shots and then call it a "mindset".

[Giuseppe]

Serious question: did you read the article Cubby? If so what is your honest opinion of it? I'm guessing you went the Machine route ie; labeled the author a hater and dismissed it outright.

At the very least I think it shows that Kobe would be well served to pass the ball at end of game situations every once in a while to make the Lakers offense less predictable.

No. It's a hit piece written before he rang at 4 & 5.

I don't have to read it. Bryant made sure we didn't have to.

[JamStone]

But selecting Kobe you're making it too easy to the defense to predict everything. He's gonna shoot, ok, just double or triple team him and that's it.

You give the ball to Manu or any other player, and there's that sense of impredictability that can destroy the defense balance, and in the end, can make you win the game (no matter who effectively shoots the last ball).

Fair. I'll put it to you this way. If you ask me who I wanted to take and make a really tough shot against good defense in the clutch, Kobe is high on the list. If you ask me who I wanted to make "the right basketball play" whether it be take a relatively good and open shot or pass it to an open teammate, Kobe would not be anywhere near the top of the list.




Little disappointed it took 4,500 words for Jamstone to get around to slobbing Kobe's knob. We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, he should have just got it out of the way early and saved us all the time.

Brool cory sto.



I think Jam is underrating the ability of NBA players to chuck up bad shots and then call it a "mindset".

A lot of NBA player can chuck up bad shots. Kobe can actually make some of those bad shots.

[Man In Black]

What Abbott really needs to add to this piece is the effect the decision making has on the outcome for clutchness. In other words, don't just show us if he made the shot, give us what happened if he passed off the ball off.

And besides, the whole clutch thing, while held up high as an amazing stat, I'd prefer the old Spurs way of just winning the game outright early on, that way...there isn't a need for clutch. But alas, that's not the Bean boy's way. In the world according to Phil, he has said that Bean keeps the game close on purpose so he can look bigger when the situation and time calls for it. I do admire the confidence, it's borderline cockiness but, clutch enough or truthfully, not clutch enough, the guy has the gonads to take a bad shot. I prefer the guy that gives the team more options late but hey...polarizing is as polarizing does.

[Booharv]

Little disappointed it took 4,500 words for Jamstone to get around to slobbing Kobe's knob. We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, he should have just got it out of the way early and saved us all the time.
I have to admit I was a little surprised at his first post in this thread, in which he said the article was good at showing how unclutch Kobe was and how he ruined the Lakers offense. Really all Kobe needs to do is pass the ball once in a while to throw opponents off balance in end of game scenarios. He's got some good teammates, its like he still doesn't trust them but as the article shows, he isn't such a sure thing himself.

No. It's a hit piece written before he rang at 4 & 5.

cI don't have to read it. Bryant made sure we didn't have to.

You think he wrote this article in 2008?

[Giuseppe]

Reading the article in the shadow of 4 & 5 would be an insult to Bryant. I won't do it.

I'd a read it, and taken my shit sandwich in the finest traditions had he not rang 4 & 5. But, you're out of your mind to think I'd read it now.

I walked the floors on that night last June, fretted & ruminated over certain calamity. But, if that glorious sob can go 6 for 24 and not be seduced by the lure of relief of the final buzzer (win or lose), I can certainly categorically refuse to read words written for his demise, 4 & 5 withstanding.

[Zelophehad]

Cubby with the nonsense. Per the usual

[Giuseppe]

I have to admit I was a little surprised at his first post in this thread, in which he said the article was good at showing how unclutch Kobe was and how he ruined the Lakers offense. Really all Kobe needs to do is pass the ball once in a while to throw opponents off balance in end of game scenarios. He's got some good teammates, its like he still doesn't trust them but as the article shows, he isn't such a sure thing himself.


You think he wrote this article in 2008?

Of course he wrote it before 4 & 5. His turn on his editor's carousel was not of any concern in the Summer of '08. Bryant would wait as he turned on the spit, skewered by the Celtics, a total failure like Magic almost a quarter century earlier in the Summer of '84 when the Celtics were done with him in like manner. But, like Magic, Bryant would grab his hammer, his tong, his jacks and his timbers and he started back down.

Luva knew. I knew. Fish knew. And Bryant, he knew that Florida in '09 wouldn't do it, even when we did it. So at 6 for 24, he got it in sight, and then launched himself not once, but, three times into the front of the rim and ended it.

- "I don't forget anything."

[Giuseppe]

Cubby with the nonsense. Per the usual

Perhaps, but, I ain't O & Forever.

You'll take '06 to your grave. And you know it.

[Zelophehad]

Perhaps, but, I ain't O & Forever.

You'll take '06 to your grave. And you know it.

Your adorable Cubby, adorable!

[Giuseppe]

Your adorable Cubby, adorable!

I exist.

[HarlemHeat37]

I didn't read the entire article, but anybody that has closely followed the NBA for years, knows that Kobe's reputation as a "clutch assassin" is one of the most overplayed NBA fabrications..to be fair, almost everything that is Kobe-related is overplayed and overhyped by the media and "NBA people"..

However, Kobe is CLEARLY clutch..Kobe's %s are higher than the league average, and while the numbers aren't impressive at first glance, the amount of shots he takes will generally lead to any player having a lower % than you would expect..by following all the stat databases and scouting tools that I have, Kobe's production actually does go up in clutch time..so while the reputation is certainly overplayed, Kobe is still a clutch player..

There have been numerous articles/research projects that examine "clutch time" in the NBA..the consistent trend in these articles has been that Kobe is clearly not the best clutch shooter in the NBA, he probably isn't even in the top 5..the other one is that Kobe forces up more shuts in clutch time than any other player, often ignoring the open teammate, which obviously isn't news to most people..

Also, while it's nice to have these numbers, the definition of "clutch" varies, and most of these articles have criteria that doesn't appeal to everybody..

The "clutch" argument is probably the most difficult and subjective arguments..nobody ever talks about clutch blocks or rebounds..rarely talked about is the clutch assist, unless it comes from a big-name player..a lot of people don't even believe in "clutch"(I'm not one of them, but there are many non-believers)..

To me, a clutch player is a player that makes the right decision, despite the high amount of pressure in said situation..a player that always wants to take the shot, even though he might miss it..that's all it means to me, in regards to "game winning shots", especially during the regular season..it's an overplayed argument IMO..all these "game winner" stats have different circumstances around them..

The only "clutch player" argument that I fully agree with is referring to a clutch player in regards to his performances in big playoff games..NBA Finals or the biggest series they're going to play in the playoffs..series-clinching games in any series', not just the NBA Finals..obviously game 7s..

Under that criteria, Kobe does qualify as one of the most clutch players in the NBA..he's a good playoff performer, particularly before the Finals..he has led a team to multiple NBA titles..his performances during the NBA Finals, particularly his series' in 2008 and 2004, lower his value as a clutch player from a historic standpoint, his lack of a dominant NBA Finals(IMO) also works against him as well..

[HarlemHeat37]

- I also find it humorous how badly Laker fans are taking to this..not necessarily in this thread, but the fans on other forums, particularly RealGM..the Laker fans on RealGM are having a meltdown about this, ranting about bias and whatever else:lol..

- The access that fans now have to advanced stats and scouting tools has helped demonstrate the incompetence and overrated knowledge from NBA front offices..being an NBA-level basketball player doesn't make you a great NBA mind or a great evaluator of talent(since most people with NBA jobs were former players or coaches on some high level of basketball, not necessarily the NBA, or had connections to other NBA people)..

- What's up with all the basketball talk here lately?..must be because certain people were on hiatus or aren't posting as much..

[Giuseppe]

If only Bryant hadn't rung at 4 & 5 the story wouldn't had to sit on the shelf for two years.

But, Bryant did ring at 4 & 5.

And there ain't nary one thing you can do about it.

[ezau]

Still would take him in the last few minutes over anybody in the league. You gotta have balls & no fear of criticism to get to the top.

Balls to miss and fail. Good thing Kobe always had an excellent cast to bail his ass out.

[Giuseppe]

Balls to miss and fail. Good thing Kobe always had an excellent cast to bail his ass out.

Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him in. Odom and Artest never rang until Kobe took them in.

The constant? Kobe.

[ezau]

Though Gasol never won a playoff game until Kobe took him in. Odom and Artest never rang until Kobe took them in.

The constant? Fisher.

:toast:toast

[ezau]

There's a reason why Henry Abbot is getting paid a lot of money to write while Jamstone isn't. That said, Abbott>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jamstone

[CubanMustGo]

How many shots did "Mr. Clutch" miss against the Queens at the end of tonight's game?

01:53 Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
01:13 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (37 PTS)
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (38 PTS)
00:20.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:08.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:02.1 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Killakobe81]

I didn't read the entire article, but anybody that has closely followed the NBA for years, knows that Kobe's reputation as a "clutch assassin" is one of the most overplayed NBA fabrications..to be fair, almost everything that is Kobe-related is overplayed and overhyped by the media and "NBA people"..

However, Kobe is CLEARLY clutch..Kobe's %s are higher than the league average, and while the numbers aren't impressive at first glance, the amount of shots he takes will generally lead to any player having a lower % than you would expect..by following all the stat databases and scouting tools that I have, Kobe's production actually does go up in clutch time..so while the reputation is certainly overplayed, Kobe is still a clutch player..

There have been numerous articles/research projects that examine "clutch time" in the NBA..the consistent trend in these articles has been that Kobe is clearly not the best clutch shooter in the NBA, he probably isn't even in the top 5..the other one is that Kobe forces up more shuts in clutch time than any other player, often ignoring the open teammate, which obviously isn't news to most people..

Also, while it's nice to have these numbers, the definition of "clutch" varies, and most of these articles have criteria that doesn't appeal to everybody..

The "clutch" argument is probably the most difficult and subjective arguments..nobody ever talks about clutch blocks or rebounds..rarely talked about is the clutch assist, unless it comes from a big-name player..a lot of people don't even believe in "clutch"(I'm not one of them, but there are many non-believers)..

To me, a clutch player is a player that makes the right decision, despite the high amount of pressure in said situation..a player that always wants to take the shot, even though he might miss it..that's all it means to me, in regards to "game winning shots", especially during the regular season..it's an overplayed argument IMO..all these "game winner" stats have different circumstances around them..

The only "clutch player" argument that I fully agree with is referring to a clutch player in regards to his performances in big playoff games..NBA Finals or the biggest series they're going to play in the playoffs..series-clinching games in any series', not just the NBA Finals..obviously game 7s..

Under that criteria, Kobe does qualify as one of the most clutch players in the NBA..he's a good playoff performer, particularly before the Finals..he has led a team to multiple NBA titles..his performances during the NBA Finals, particularly his series' in 2008 and 2004, lower his value as a clutch player from a historic standpoint, his lack of a dominant NBA Finals(IMO) also works against him as well..

Good fair post. I agree the numbers show he is not the most efficient clutch player. My point was if you had one shot to win a game I would take Kobe. only way i would consider someone else if it was a shooting contest with no defense. Then i would take Ray allen or Nash maybe even consider dirk depending on the distance. But with a defender on him one shot to save the universe I take kobe.

That was the original question and still my answer. he would use stats that put guys like robinson on that list over much better choices not only kobe. I would also take Manu over Melo, and Pierce even though his numbers dont favor them either ...

[Gutter92]

How many shots did "Mr. Clutch" miss against the Queens at the end of tonight's game?

01:53 Bryant Jump Shot: Missed
01:13 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 1 of 2 (37 PTS)
00:32.3 Bryant Free Throw 2 of 2 (38 PTS)
00:20.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:08.9 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed
00:02.1 Bryant 3pt Shot: Missed

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


:lmao

[Michael Jordan.]

:lol