Why Manu is an all star and Tony is not ?

[analyzed]

I've always wondered why inspite of Manu's and Tony stats being almost at the same level, Manu's ( 19 points , 5 Assists) vs Tony's (17 points , 7 assist), the consensus opinion is Manu is more valuable to the Spurs and its unquestionalbe leader.

(ESPN pics Manu as the number one pick for all Star reserve, while Tony is not an all star )
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110128-30/stein-all-star-reserves

After analyzing their stats, it boils down to when they produce ( 4th quarter points, assist, steals etc) that explains the reason why Manu is generally considered as the Spurs MVP and go to guy and Tony is not.

Tony is just avg 15 % (2.7 pts) of 17 point avg in the 4th quarter (one of the lowest % of all NBA players avg 15 or more points) . While Manu is averaging a 42 % ( 7 points) of his 19 point avg in the 4th quarter ( one of the highest in the NBA) . I haven't checked but it's the same case for assist as well ( Manu get's most of his assist in the 4th vs Tony )

So now you know, what most people beleived, but could'nt point to exactly why: One produces when it counts the other piles stats early

[DJB]

Because Gino's competing with SGs. Tony's competing with PGs. And there's more PGs playing better ball than TP in the Western Conference. Same thing can't be said for SGs.

[ajballer4]

Lol the easts squad is not nearly as good. West should run away with it

[Pauleta14]

because the places are limited and as you noticed with the stats, Manu is used more than Tony in the 4th

[jestersmash]

OP needs a lesson on the concept of PER. This isn't 2001...we don't compare players by looking at points per game, assists per game, etc in isolation anymore.

[Giuseppe]

Tony is "Beaver" to Manu's "Wally." Pop is "Ward." & "June" is played by Kor I. Ellis in the ingenue role of a lifetime. Luva will play "Eddie Haskell." DPG will play the fire hydrant out front.

[anakha]

Tony is "Beaver" to Manu's "Wally." Pop is "Ward." & "June" is played by Kor I. Ellis in the ingenue role of a lifetime. Luva will play "Eddie Haskell." DPG will play the fire hydrant out front.

I take it you're the Mike Nelson in all this.

[Dunc n Dave]

Tony is "Beaver" to Manu's "Wally." Pop is "Ward." & "June" is played by Kor I. Ellis in the ingenue role of a lifetime. Luva will play "Eddie Haskell." DPG will play the fire hydrant out front.

:rolleyes Get back in the basement Cully, where you belong...

[ALVAREZ6]

t3fNauvrAZQ

kH8UbFpkN6Q

Rl_v3yo3Lxo

z8Mg6Zj2P7w

WzGY9aAdgmQ

[Juanobili]

I totally forgot it was Gary Neal who hit that game winner in Mexico City

[Giuseppe]

:rolleyes Get back in the basement Cully, where you belong...

It's like a morgue down there. I wanted to come up here and peek under some kimono's. Anybody see Swords around?

[Giuseppe]

I totally forgot it was Gary Neal who hit that game winner in Mexico City

She was bent over in Mexico City, eh? Splains the vomiting part.

[DPG21920]

Tony is "Beaver" to Manu's "Wally." Pop is "Ward." & "June" is played by Kor I. Ellis in the ingenue role of a lifetime. Luva will play "Eddie Haskell." DPG will play the fire hydrant out front.

The fact I have a role is all I ask. The Hydrant. No flash, and you don't appreciate it until you need it.

Sounds right up my alley.

[analyzed]

wheter one plays PG of SG is irrelevant for all star selection chances. as voters (coaches) are not asked to differentiate SG or PG but simply to pick 2 guards plus an extra 2 wildcard (can be any position) .
Coaches are not picking Westbrook ( a PG who plays like SG) over Martin because Westbrook is PG and Martin is not, their picking Westbrook over Martin because he simply is playing better. If Tony or any PG like Nash is playing better than Manu they would be selected over Manu in regardless of their guard position they play.



Because Gino's competing with SGs. Tony's competing with PGs. And there's more PGs playing better ball than TP in the Western Conference. Same thing can't be said for SGs.

[MmP]

this article is great in order to manu to be an AS. Previous years that he deserved to be as well he didn't have any lobby and national attenntion to get in, even if he was playing the same way as this year's (in 08).
I remember in 05 everybody was speaking about him and his recent gold medal.

[urunobili]

It's like a morgue down there. I wanted to come up here and peek under some kimono's. Anybody see Swords around?

lol crossing borders without going through customs

[TDMVPDPOY]

Neal with it

[Kori Ellis]

Manu's been great in the 4th this year. However, I don't think the coaches that vote are going to analyze all that. They'll probably just glance at their basic stats (points/assists/FG%) and think about who impacted the particular games that were played against their own team.

If one of them goes, I prefer it's Manu. But I can see a scenario where neither of them is picked.

[WalterBenitez]

Because he is Manu Ginobili

[MmP]

True Kori but I've hearing commets during NBA analysis and games about him being "fantastic" and "MVP type season". Those comments weren't there only in 05. He's getting national attention and that's positive.

[analyzed]

Coaches might not go into the detail of analyzing 4th quarter production prior to making their picks. But you have to admit a players "clutchness" has a huge lasting impression in how people vote. And likewise if a player chokes or disappers in the 4th , that must make a huge bad impression on how one views a player. So yeah , absolutely how one performs when it counts most does matter a lot


Manu's been great in the 4th this year. However, I don't think the coaches that vote are going to analyze all that. They'll probably just glance at their basic stats (points/assists/FG%) and think about who impacted the particular games that were played against their own team.

If one of them goes, I prefer it's Manu. But I can see a scenario where neither of them is picked.

[Kori Ellis]

True Kori but I've hearing commets during NBA analysis and games about him being "fantastic" and "MVP type season". Those comments weren't there only in 05. He's getting national attention and that's positive.

Oh I agree -- especially early in the year, he was getting tons of national praise. I think Manu has his best shot that he's had at making the AS game in a long time.

I'm just saying that the coaches who are voting don't go into as much detail as the original poster. They just basically glance at the stats and think about who has done well against them (which this year, Manu has done really well against many teams).

[Martin R]

just because Manu is a better player ???

[Lady M]

When you see Love in the reserve you know the analyst is bad
maybe Griffin will go with Stern but Love is a statman in a losing team like Ellis

[kuato]

Manu feed his teammates when his shot is "off", he makes the team better without the ball in his hands.

[Bruno]

Haters gonna hate...

And maybe this thread would be more relevant with the true stats:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3527/splits.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3380/splits.html

[anakha]

Manu feed his teammates when his shot is "off", he makes the team better without the ball in his hands.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/12/28/129065226180439461.jpg

[Spurs Brazil]

Tony and Manu deserves to go.

TP is playing great this season and is as important as Manu for the Spurs

[concken]

we need both...

:wakeup

[servalli]

Because he is Manu Ginobili

[DPG21920]

Why do people care about the All-Star game? I really don't get it.

All that is important is that TP and Manu are both healthy and playing at a level that is good enough for the Spurs to have a shot at a title.

[Blackjack]

If Tony would just pass the ball both he, Manu and Larry Owens would make the All-Star game . . .

[TD 21]

Manu's been great in the 4th this year. However, I don't think the coaches that vote are going to analyze all that. They'll probably just glance at their basic stats (points/assists/FG%) and think about who impacted the particular games that were played against their own team.

If one of them goes, I prefer it's Manu. But I can see a scenario where neither of them is picked.

Not a chance. Ginobili is a lock and was before the season even started. Duncan, Nowitzki and Williams are, too.

Parker will probably get snubbed and it'll be reasoned that there is just too much competition at the point in the West and too many deserving players in the West period. There's definitely some truth to that, but the reality is the Celtics are probably getting four All-Stars and if in fact they do, then there's no excuse for the Spurs to not get three.

I love how winning always mattered . . . until the Spurs were running away with the best record in the league (and doing it unexpectedly, to boot) and there was a ridiculously exciting player and a white player leading the way when it came to "good stats/bad team" guys. Then all of that went out the window and suddenly numbers mattered more than winning. Many debate whether Duncan should be there, let alone even mention Parker.

The Duncan debate is ridiculous. He's done what Garnett's done for three years, but when he does it, now scoring average matters and defense, rebounding, leadership, winning at a ridiculous rate, etc. are out the window. No one ever debated the merits of Garnett being selected when he was throwing up 13/7 and playing under 30 mpg and he's not as good as Duncan.

[urunobili]

it'd be a dream to have the big three there! TP deserves it as much as Manu tbh

[ducks]

pistons had a worse record and had 4 starters in the allstar game


yes east sucks but what

all three should go

[Kori Ellis]

Haters gonna hate...

And maybe this thread would be more relevant with the true stats:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3527/splits.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3380/splits.html

If those are the right stats, where did the original poster get his stats? :wtf

[ducks]

tp shoots better

[lefty]

Lmao Ducks

[Cane]

Imo the Big 3 all have a case for getting in. Duncan should be the replacement for Yao to honor the best record in the league since the Spurs won't have any starters otherwise and he's still one of the best bigs. Parker should get in since he's having a career year in assists without having to play career high minutes and is one hell of an aggressive and efficient scorer.

But I think Manu has a pretty solid case over Parker since he's the leading scorer on the team with the best record and Manu's one of the most clutch in the league when it comes to doing all it takes to get the W.

I also think Ginobili's heroics is still fresh in coaches minds from the second half of last season which was simply a spectacular performance for any player; he basically carried the Spurs for that stretch.

But as always the West is stacked. For example looking at other teams its kinda crazy that Deron Williams only has one all star appearance

[ducks]

spurs in the east would have 4 all stars

[ElNono]

Haters gonna hate...

And maybe this thread would be more relevant with the true stats:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3527/splits.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3380/splits.html

tbh, I don't know where the numbers came from, but this appeared on the ESPN Weekend Dime (http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110128-30/stein-all-star-reserves) yesterday:

2.7: The Lakers' Pau Gasol, averaging 2.7 points in fourth quarters, has the lowest fourth-quarter scoring average of any player in the league's top 60 scorers. San Antonio's Tony Parker is No. 59 at 2.8 points per game in the final period.

EDIT: Looks like those are numbers for this past week

[duncan228]

No surprise, Monroe thinks the Big Three should be there.


...Third in fan voting, Ginobili has been the best clutch performer for the league’s top team, statistics failing to quantify his value to the Spurs.

...(Parker's) ability to create offense for 39-7 Spurs can’t be overstated; Spurs’ record rationalizes his spot on All-Star roster.

...Even at a career-low 29.4 minutes per game, Duncan remains a force in the paint, a top-10 rebounder and shot blocker.

NBA All-Star Game: Deserving reserves (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2011/01/29/nba-all-star-game-deserving-reserves/)
Mike Monroe

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2011/01/29/nba-all-star-game-deserving-reserves/

[lefty]

Haters gonna hate...

And maybe this thread would be more relevant with the true stats:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3527/splits.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3380/splits.html
Yep

Manu is better

[Cessation]

No argument, manu is better.

[ego]

No argument, manu is better.

TP FG = 52 %
MANU FG = 43 %

Yes no Argument !!

You can also look at FG on the first quarter. TP put his team on a good way in each game !

[lefty]

TP FG = 52 %
MANU FG = 43 %

Yes no Argument !!

You can also look at FG on the first quarter. TP put his team on a good way in each game !

And Manu scores in the 4th

When it matters the most

[jestersmash]

TP FG = 52 %
MANU FG = 43 %

Yes no Argument !!

You can also look at FG on the first quarter. TP put his team on a good way in each game !

Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 57.1
Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.6

Zing, I win.

Field goal percentage is an absolutely awful statistic. It doesn't take into account the fact that shooting 40% from 3 point land is statistically equivalent to shooting 50% from 2 point land, and in case you haven't noticed, Ginobili shoots the 3 quite a bit...and makes quite a bit.

True shooting percentage encompasses all of that, and more (free throw%) to give you a nice, neat number.

And by the way, true shooting percentage isn't some arbitrary pulled-out-of-the-ass stat geek formula. It's a mathematical fact.

[jestersmash]

And Manu scores in the 4th

When it matters the most

No need to use Manu's brilliant 4th quarter scoring to rationalize his relatively greater usefulness to the team. He statistically is more efficient overall. In fact he's one of the most efficient shooting guards in the league.

[jestersmash]

Quick disclaimer: I love Tony Parker (not in a gay way) and I would love to see him on the all star team. I'm not trying to start yet another Tony vs Manu thread, I was merely correcting facts.

[ego]

And Manu scores in the 4th

When it matters the most

The first quater ! When your team takes the head at the beginning of the game, the whole game is more easy. When Manu scores in the 4th, sometimes, it's after bad shooting game in the first quarters. I'm not a Manu hater, I love this player but I don't understand how Spurs fans can not see the qualities of TP.
I think TP is very consistent actually and I'm sure that Pop asks to the top players to play softly (no risk) . There are three all stars in the team : a big fundamental TD, a little fundamental TP and a flashy player with extraordinary qualities Manu.
(sorry for my bad english)

[analyzed]

These numbers from SI are not for the all the games they played this season. ( must be a different split (last week game etc ?) as their stats for four quarters are exceeding and are inconsistent with their total current avgs for the season.


Haters gonna hate...

And maybe this thread would be more relevant with the true stats:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3527/splits.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/players/3380/splits.html

[ego]

Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 57.1
Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.6

Zing, I win.

Field goal percentage is an absolutely awful statistic. It doesn't take into account the fact that shooting 40% from 3 point land is statistically equivalent to shooting 50% from 2 point land, and in case you haven't noticed, Ginobili shoots the 3 quite a bit...and makes quite a bit.


no :) you lost !

Actually for the nba stats TP 2PM/2PA .535 Manu .50 ( and you can also remove easy layouts, dunks etc ... if you want)

Tp is not bad at 3PT but I agree with you that Manu takes more shoots at 3PT but TP .33 is not bad, Manu is (only) at .37

Only one remark : It's one of the better season for TP in 3PT, FT and AST.
Look at the last 3PT and FT !!!

[ALVAREZ6]

Kori Ellis knows her shit, period.

[jestersmash]

no :) you lost !

Actually for the nba stats TP 2PM/2PA .535 Manu .50 ( and you can also remove easy layouts, dunks etc ... if you want)

Tp is not bad at 3PT but I agree with you that Manu takes more shoots at 3PT but TP .33 is not bad, Manu is (only) at .37

Only one remark : It's one of the better season for TP in 3PT, FT and AST.
Look at the last 3PT and FT !!!

Once again you threw an utterly irrelevant statistic at me. The fact that Tony Parker's 2 point field goal percentage is higher than Manu's 2 point field goal percentage is irrelevant. Why?

Because - once again - you're completely ignoring 3 point field goal percentage corrected for volume. That's what true shooting percentage does. It corrects for both the fact that 3 pointers are more valuable than 2 pointers (40% from 3 = 50% from 2) and for volume differences. Manu shoots a lot more 3s than Tony (and makes a high percentage of them) and gets to the free throw line more often while shooting much better from the free throw line, which is why overall Manu's true shooting percentage is higher.

That's it, the end. It's a simple concept. Look up true shooting percentage if you have any more questions.

It's ok to be wrong.

I agree that Tony Parker is certainly deserving of an all star berth this year.

I disagree with your implication that Parker is somehow more efficient from the field than Manu, and yes that certainly was your implication because you compared overall field goal percentage for both players in isolation which is just about the worst thing you can do. It's analogous to comparing points per game between players without correcting for shot attempts per game or minutes per game.

[Bruno]

These numbers from SI are not for the all the games they played this season. ( must be a different split (last week game etc ?) as their stats for four quarters are exceeding and are inconsistent with their total current avgs for the season.

It's called rounding off...

[oski1000]

Manu is simply the best of the team.

:flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2 ::lobt2::lobt2:

[ElNono]

I think what Tony has going against him is that DWill is the better point guard.
As far as 2 guards go, with Roy being out, Manu doesn't have a lot of competition as the backup to Kobe.

I wish both Manu and Tony would make it though. What they're doing along with everyone else with this team is historical.

[Pauleta14]

And Manu scores in the 4th

When it matters the most


Come on Lefty...

Even if I agree Manu is (slightly) more valuable this year than Tony, you can't bring (only) that argument to compare their game!

If Tony doesn't produce as much in the 4th, it's also because Pop chooses to put the ball in Manu's hand.
NOT ONLY because he is clutch, but MAINLY because he is a machine a the FT line...

It's not because you have to chose someone than the other choices (Tony and Timmy) can't be clutch... (both have proved to be!)

There are many games where Manu wouldn't have had the opportunity to be clutch because the team would have been blown out before the 4th (in part because of him, a lot of Manu amazing/great/clutch plays come after a TO/dumb play... by himself!)

My point is the choice isn't THAT obvious BB wise...
But nowdays, it's all about highlights, spectacular plays... even if it's still 2 points...

Just imagine the spurs without Tony... (speed, % shooting, unselfishness/ego, D against speedy PG, systems knowledges...)

It's scray that not only the media, but even his own fans underestimate him...
I can't find another example in ANY sports! :wow

[ducks]

what makes the spurs players have better stats then some players
is this team is so balance

no one shoots more then 14 shots

spurs ususally have 6 players in double figures
it helps them when
teams can not shut down one player
it just hurts each person having allstar years and making the team

[Bukefal]

Because he Is Manu, the allmighty and Tony Is just, well Tony, the underrated and hated. Haters gonna hate.

Analyzed said, one produces when it counts while the other piles stats early. But if the other does not pile stats early, one won't even have the chance to count in the 4th. So, It's both important.

And no, I don't hate Manu, he deserves It. I just think they both deserve to be All-Stars. TP Is just as important for the team as Manu so far this season. Both have been doing great.

Anyway, f*ck the ASG tbh

[Frankie23]

Well, Manu finished 3rd in the fans poll.. So, he should definitly be a lock to a guard spot. Also, he's being considered as an MVP candidate.
Tony has been playing amazing this year. His % are great, he's running the point much better and his defense has really developed. I think he's being underated by most NBA fans (maybe cause there're great PGs), but he deserved a spot at the ASG.

It would be just ridiculous to only have one Spurs (player) at the All Star Game. Would be great for the original big3 to be there all together..

[cd98]

Tony is underrated. If he played on the Jazz or the Hornets, he'd have gaudier numbers. As is, he does well in a system where he shares the creating with Manu and everyone on the team shares the shooting opportunities.

[ElNono]

Tony is definitely underrated. He's also going against overrated guys like Westbrook, who is all the rage in the media these days.

[urunobili]

I would bet Money that if the coaches don't vote TP in, the league would like to see a big 3 with Pop on the helms before TD retires. They may consider that on their ballot, it has to.

I say TP makes it. Period.

[ChuckD]

Tony Parker true shooting percentage = 57.1
Manu Ginobili true shooting percentage = 59.6

Zing, I win.

Field goal percentage is an absolutely awful statistic. It doesn't take into account the fact that shooting 40% from 3 point land is statistically equivalent to shooting 50% from 2 point land, and in case you haven't noticed, Ginobili shoots the 3 quite a bit...and makes quite a bit.

True shooting percentage encompasses all of that, and more (free throw%) to give you a nice, neat number.

And by the way, true shooting percentage isn't some arbitrary pulled-out-of-the-ass stat geek formula. It's a mathematical fact.

Actually, shooting 40% from 3 is the equivalent of shooting 60% from 2.

3pt 100 shots 40 makes 120 points
2pt 100 shots 60 makes 120 points

That's why most uninformed posters don't understand the value of a Bonner. He scores with the efficiency of a good post player, without clogging the lane. In fact, he spaces the lane for T,T,and M.

[MmP]

I think Manu has more resources in his game in order to win than Tony, but TP is equally important to Manu for the team. If he's not healthy / playing well we have little chances.

And c'mon Tony has been 3 times an All star...why complaining?

[Josepatches_]

Manu is simply the best of the team.

:flag::flag::flag::flag::flag::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2 ::lobt2::lobt2:


This season is true.

[jestersmash]

Actually, shooting 40% from 3 is the equivalent of shooting 60% from 2.

3pt 100 shots 40 makes 120 points
2pt 100 shots 60 makes 120 points

That's why most uninformed posters don't understand the value of a Bonner. He scores with the efficiency of a good post player, without clogging the lane. In fact, he spaces the lane for T,T,and M.

Ah, my bad, good catch.

Varner from 48MOH brought up the interesting prospect of Bonner potentially causing match up issues for the Lakers in a potential playoff series because of the way he spaces the floor as a 3 point shooting big man.

[ElNono]

Actually, shooting 40% from 3 is the equivalent of shooting 60% from 2.

3pt 100 shots 40 makes 120 points
2pt 100 shots 60 makes 120 points

That's why most uninformed posters don't understand the value of a Bonner. He scores with the efficiency of a good post player, without clogging the lane. In fact, he spaces the lane for T,T,and M.

If the opponent is shooting 60%+ against Bonner, then the value is non-existent. Not to mention that shooting 60%+ is great if you're taking a lot of shots. He's a 8ppg guy at the very best.

[cd98]

The problem is both should be there and it defies reason why Ginobili has only been there once.

Manu is getting the much deserved hype and Tony is being ignored.

[romain.star]

The problem is both should be there and it defies reason why Ginobili has only been there once.

Manu is getting the much deserved hype and Tony is being ignored.

Manu is a HOF with 3 rings. ASG is a joke compared to that

[ChuckD]

If the opponent is shooting 60%+ against Bonner, then the value is non-existent. Not to mention that shooting 60%+ is great if you're taking a lot of shots. He's a 8ppg guy at the very best.

So? His 8ppg keeps one opponent big out of the paint playing him, whether he's shooting the ball or not.

Do you have stats that say his man shoots 60% or did you just pull that out of your ass? My stats are solid.

[MB20]

Both Manu and Tony deserve to be at the ASG. The reason being that the Spurs are the team with the best record in the NBA at 40-7!
The team has been carried by the backcourt for long stretches of the season, which has helped to keep Duncan's minutes down.
Manu started the season playing awesome basketball, and was clearly playing at another level. But in the last 40 days or so, Tony has been as good or better sometimes.
Stats are even.
Both should be there.
This team is so balanced that there's no clear cut "best player".
Everybody is contributing, including the rookies and the whole bench.

40-7 should be rewarded with 2 or 3 players at the ASG, imo.

[DJ Mbenga]

I've always wondered why inspite of Manu's and Tony stats being almost at the same level, Manu's ( 19 points , 5 Assists) vs Tony's (17 points , 7 assist), the consensus opinion is Manu is more valuable to the Spurs and its unquestionalbe leader.

(ESPN pics Manu as the number one pick for all Star reserve, while Tony is not an all star )
http://espn.go.com/nba/dailydime/_/page/dime-110128-30/stein-all-star-reserves

After analyzing their stats, it boils down to when they produce ( 4th quarter points, assist, steals etc) that explains the reason why Manu is generally considered as the Spurs MVP and go to guy and Tony is not.

Tony is just avg 15 % (2.7 pts) of 17 point avg in the 4th quarter (one of the lowest % of all NBA players avg 15 or more points) . While Manu is averaging a 42 % ( 7 points) of his 19 point avg in the 4th quarter ( one of the highest in the NBA) . I haven't checked but it's the same case for assist as well ( Manu get's most of his assist in the 4th vs Tony )

So now you know, what most people beleived, but could'nt point to exactly why: One produces when it counts the other piles stats early

brandon roy is hurt. after kobe the only sg out there that might desreve it is kevin martin. manu is a lock. for pg tony has no shot. paul, williams, westbrook are all ahead of him. parker is only ahead of nash and its by a little

[ElNono]

So? His 8ppg keeps one opponent big out of the paint playing him, whether he's shooting the ball or not.

Except his big man doesn't stay on him. That's exactly what good coaches play him like (ie: Phil Jackson). It's playing the averages. You much rather get beat by Bonner than TD/Manu/Tony. If he hits 7/7 from downtown you tip your hat to him, dare him to do it again and move on.


Do you have stats that say his man shoots 60% or did you just pull that out of your ass? My stats are solid.

lol, your stats are not stats, they're simple math inside a vacuum. I'm putting your 'stats' in perspective by stating he's a 8ppg guy. That's a stat and a fact also. His 3 rpg are also a fact. That he's a liability on defense and a playoff choker shouldn't be a surprise to anybody at this point.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Who cares about meaningless All-stars?

I think Manu is incomplete without Tony and the latter without Manu. Without either the Manu-TP combination, the Spurs lose a lot of their lethality. Both are super-unique players thriving within a system. Tony with his solid paint based game because of his speed, despite his short stature, and Manu with his PG abilities being as good as his shooting ones complement each other so much. Manu's successes therefore have a lot to do with TP's paint-penetration abilities as much as the latter's is helped by Manu's overall game.

And thats all I am happy about. TP has to compete with the likes of CP3, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook and Steve Nash for an All-star spot and all of those guys carry a much larger load (with difficult returns as opposed to TP who is the most winningest). Manu's made easy because apart from Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade there are no better shooting guards in the league.

[BackHome]

Tony reminds me of Romo a great player but not a leader.........Manu is a freakin
Four Star General ****

[TMTTRIO]

I'd rather have Tony go. All Star selection doesn't seem like Manu's kind of thing and I think he would rather spend his weekend with his boys.
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs071.snc6/168119_10150130431336934_71769686933_7997958_39473 5_n.jpg

[analyzed]

Actually wheter one plays SG or PG is irrelevant in the all star selection process as there is no differentiation between the 2 positions , both fan and coach votes are differentiated simply by Guards, forwards and centers. That is why even if there is an abundance of Power forwards over small forwards , it has no impact on the chances of Love, Griffin, Duncan , Aldridge, Norwitski, Gasol all PF( LOL half of the team 6 players could all be Power forwards, ) just like half of the team could be PG, if they are all deserving, but the thing is there not, or there are SG who are simply better.


Who cares about meaningless All-stars?


. TP has to compete with the likes of CP3, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook and Steve Nash for an All-star spot and all of those guys carry a much larger load (with difficult returns as opposed to TP who is the most winningest). Manu's made easy because apart from Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade there are no better shooting guards in the league.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I would bet Money that if the coaches don't vote TP in, the league would like to see a big 3 with Pop on the helms before TD retires. They may consider that on their ballot, it has to.

I say TP makes it. Period.

This. All 3 deserve to be in. As much as the all star game and weekend is all about hype and is ultimately irrelevant, all 3 deserve the recognition and now is the best time for that to happen with Pop at the helm.

The Tony vs Manu debate is bullshit, they're both equally important and equally good, they're also both underrated because the Spurs play team oriented basketball and no one's stats are impressive.

Now, admittedly I've watched Parker much more than Westbrook and Rondo and yesterday's games might be one offs or whatever, but I like Parker's game much more than these 2. Same with Manu when people compare him to Iguodala, Joe Johnson, etc, they might have better stats but they're in no way shape or form better players than Manu.

[FromWayDowntown]

This forum has been begging for a legitimate reason for Spurs fans to pit Manu Ginobili against Tony Parker with real vitriol for a while -- I personally consider the absence of those threads one of the few unfortunate consequences of a 40-7 start (for the record, I think we're also woefully short of: "the refs screwed us" threads, legitimate "Fire Pop!" meltdowns, and "[D-League guy] is the answer" rants).

[Mel_13]

The Tony vs Manu debate is bullshit, they're both equally important and equally good, they're also both underrated because the Spurs play team oriented basketball and no one's stats are impressive.

:tu

That about says it all. Over the last few years, we've seen too much of Tony without Manu and Manu without Tony. This year, we're seeing Tony AND Manu together as healthy starters for the first time in years. That combo works pretty good, wouldn't you say?

[wildbill2u]

I never liked the "Manu off the bench" program although Manu went along with Pop's decision very gracefully.

When you have a limited number of minutes and three great players, you put them on the court together for as much of every game as you can against the other team's great players.

It makes no sense to put a second tier player on the court agaist a first tier opponent at the start of the game when many games momentum are decided. That's generating a mismatch in favor of the other team for too many minutes.

[mathbzh]

IMO Manu has been the best Spurs this season (clutch, best PER, best +/-, intangibles...)

But Tony is not far behind and would be a legit pick.

Now, if we assume both player are just as good. Gino is still the #1 pick just because at this point in his career he should have more than one All Star selection.

[eric365]

I never liked the "Manu off the bench" program although Manu went along with Pop's decision very gracefully.

When you have a limited number of minutes and three great players, you put them on the court together for as much of every game as you can against the other team's great players.

It makes no sense to put a second tier player on the court agaist a first tier opponent at the start of the game when many games momentum are decided. That's generating a mismatch in favor of the other team for too many minutes.

Manu doesn't come off the bench anymore but they are still playing limited time together.

Manu is out at the 6 minute mark in the 1rst quarter and sub Parker with 2 minutes left. They only play again together the last 6 minute of the 2nd quarter

The same for the second half.

=> 24 minutes together per game.

And Tony is scoring the most of his points once Manu is out.

[wontstartdumbthreads]

:tu

That about says it all. Over the last few years, we've seen too much of Tony without Manu and Manu without Tony. This year, we're seeing Tony AND Manu together as healthy starters for the first time in years. That combo works pretty good, wouldn't you say?

Yeah, Manu and Tony are great but I think Manu with any healthy top tier point guard would work just as well.

Tony is replacable with probably 5 or 6 other point guards.
Manu is irreplacable.

[FTLSpur]

TP will be in, period.

[lefty]

WGAF

It's the fucking ASG

Look at the big picture, people

[ALVAREZ6]

TP will be in, period.
TP has small chances in making this ASG. Saying he will be in period/for sure/without a doubt....is a pretty stupid thing to say tbh.

[FTLSpur]

TP has small chances in making this ASG. Saying he will be in period/for sure/without a doubt....is a pretty stupid thing to say tbh.
Let's revisit the issue after the rosters have been set.

It's as stupid as you saying he has small chances.

[mathbzh]

Yeah, Manu and Tony are great but I think Manu with any healthy top tier point guard would work just as well.

Tony is replacable with probably 5 or 6 other point guards.
Manu is irreplacable.

I like Manu, but he could be replaced by Kobe or Wade just as easily as you would replace Parker with Paul or Williams. But I agree the NBA is really stacked with top tier PG.
By the way Parker and Ginobili are both very unique.

[xtremesteven33]

Parker just isnt better than Manu. Simple as that.

[Kent_in_Atlanta]

It is often said of a given player... "His value can't be summed up on a stat sheet". That can be said of many players... but that's probably truer of Ginobili than any other player in basketball.

The energy, the raw desire to win, drawing fouls, taking charges, getting under the skin of opposing players... and yes, his ability in the clutch, are what set him apart from Parker.

Also, versatility. Ginobili can play the 2, 3 or run the point (and he often does, unofficially, when on the floor).

[ALVAREZ6]

I like Manu, but he could be replaced by Kobe or Wade just as easily as you would replace Parker with Paul or Williams. But I agree the NBA is really stacked with top tier PG.
By the way Parker and Ginobili are both very unique.
Not really. Wade and Kobe are THE only replacements, and they're of the most expensive in the game. Parker could be replaced by many more, the PG position is loaded in this league. Ginobili is one of the most valuable players in the league period, specifically because his market value is so low relative to what he commands. He's probably without a doubt a top 3 most valuable players in the league in that context.

I'm not saying Tony's case is too far off from what I just described, but definitely on another level for Manu.

[cd98]

Manu is a HOF with 3 rings. ASG is a joke compared to that

You wait. When the debate comes around, the ESPN types will be saying, "Well, he was a member of three championship teams, but he only made one all star team and spent most of his career coming off the bench."

I'm not saying he's not a HOF player, but I am saying that talking heads give greater respect to players with multiple All-Star appearances. They'll be voices out there saying he was a good role player.

Of course, if Spurs win the title this year and he is the MVP, then that would change things (although it hasn't really changed things for underrated Parker- so maybe nothing he does will impress some talking heads).

[cd98]

Not really. Wade and Kobe are THE only replacements, and they're of the most expensive in the game. Parker could be replaced by many more, the PG position is loaded in this league. Ginobili is one of the most valuable players in the league period, specifically because his market value is so low relative to what he commands. He's probably without a doubt a top 3 most valuable players in the league in that context.

I'm not saying Tony's case is too far off from what I just described, but definitely on another level for Manu.

The point guard position is deep league-wide, but not so much in the West. Paul and Williams are obviously the two best and most heralded players in the West and both make it. I'd have to say, though, that after those two, you'd have to take Parker over Nash and Westbrook because Parker has played as good or better than those two and he is on a team that is making a historic run. It all depends on how many guards they take (will there be extra point guards or extra forwards).

[jestersmash]

You wait. When the debate comes around, the ESPN types will be saying, "Well, he was a member of three championship teams, but he only made one all star team and spent most of his career coming off the bench."

I'm not saying he's not a HOF player, but I am saying that talking heads give greater respect to players with multiple All-Star appearances. They'll be voices out there saying he was a good role player.

Of course, if Spurs win the title this year and he is the MVP, then that would change things (although it hasn't really changed things for underrated Parker- so maybe nothing he does will impress some talking heads).

The media will occasionally (rarely, actually) bring up Ginobili and hall of fame chances, and everybody agrees that he is a HOFer due to his achievements outside the NBA.

Manu Ginobili is Drazen Petrovic only far superior. Drazen was inducted into the hall of fame in 2002.

[ALVAREZ6]

The point guard position is deep league-wide, but not so much in the West. Paul and Williams are obviously the two best and most heralded players in the West and both make it. I'd have to say, though, that after those two, you'd have to take Parker over Nash and Westbrook because Parker has played as good or better than those two and he is on a team that is making a historic run. It all depends on how many guards they take (will there be extra point guards or extra forwards).
Ok, that's two PGs CLEARLY ahead of Parker.

Nash probably also is on the same level, if not better IMO because he's still shooting 52% (like parker #s) and averaging 11 assists per game in a completely changed team.

Westbrook's stats are retarded good, but yeah he's not on the Spurs, but still a respectable team.



Manu, by contrast, has one clear SG above him: Kobe Bryant. and even this season, it's not totally clear, but when it all comes down to it, sure I agree Kobe should be ahead of Manu.

Every other SG in the west is clearly inferior to Manu. Clearly. Manu is a top 3 SG in the league, period. And we both know for the reserves, it doesn't matter exactly which guard or forward position you play, but one thing I believe is that Manu has better chances than Tony, for the reasons already given in this thread.

And Manu making in my opinion, actually lowers the chances Tony will also, because he is another guard at west ahead of him, on top of all of the PGs out west. Given Manu makes it, I highly doubt they're putting Tony ahead of D-Will, and with all of the great forwards out west also, I think it's very very very very very very very stupid to claim that Tony will make it, period.


It's a long shot. If he makes it, awesome, but I wouldn't count on it.

[jestersmash]

One of the NBA TV analysts (I forget who) who also does fantasy basketball said Ginobili is a lock for the hall of fame a couple of weeks ago, and gave all the obvious reasons emphasizing the fact that basketball hall of fame is not just NBA.

[jestersmash]

Drazen -

A star on multiple stages, Petrović earned two silver medals and one bronze in Olympic basketball, a gold and a bronze in the FIBA World Championship, a gold and a bronze in the FIBA European Championship, earned four Euroscar Awards, and was named Mr. Europa in basketball twice. In 1985 he received the golden badge award for best athlete of Yugoslavia.

Seeking a bigger arena after his career start in Europe, Petrović joined the National Basketball Association in 1989 as a member of the Portland Trail Blazers. After playing mostly off the bench that year, Petrović experienced a break-out following a trade to the New Jersey Nets, starting and becoming one of the league's best shooting guards.

Petrović is considered the crucial part of the vanguard to the present-day mass influx of European players into the NBA.[1] Petrović's #3 was retired by the Nets in 1993 and in 2002, he was posthumously enshrined in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame.[2]

[ALVAREZ6]

What Manu has that Drazen doesn't is rings, and multiple of them.

[wontstartdumbthreads]

Unfortunately for Parker, the NBA brethren will not treat him kindly for his indiscressions. If he is not selected to the All Star game, it is surely because of his affair with Ernie Johnson.

[jestersmash]

What Manu has that Drazen doesn't is rings, and multiple of them.

Exactly.

I'm just surprised that people think you have to be on the level of Kobe Bryant or Tim Duncan to get into the hall of fame. Those two players are locks for the HOF due to NBA achievements alone.

Ginobili has a pretty solid NBA resume in and of itself, but what makes him a lock are his out of NBA achievements.

I'll look up the NBA TV fantasy video where the guy said Ginobili was a lock for the HOF a couple of weeks (maybe a month) ago. His co-host agreed also. Bill Walton used to bring it up a lot and said Ginobili will make it into the HOF. Barkley says Ginobili is a HOFer.

I've never heard anybody in the media disagree. People certainly don't bring it up that often, but nobody ever disagrees, and for good reason.

[MmP]

Magic Johnson said best: "Petrovic was just a scorer, Ginobili has multiple threats"

[ALVAREZ6]

Wild cards


Manu Ginobili, Spurs: The best player on the league's best team, Ginobili nonetheless has a tough fight in this group. Despite playing only 31.5 minutes a game, he prevails for a few reasons. First, he's probably the best defender on this list other than Williams. Second, he's consistently played at this level for the past seven years, so we can confidently say this is his true level of ability and not a short-term fluke.

And third, he's vastly more qualified than any other perimeter player. The only question is whether one of the hordes of power forwards should outrank him. I would argue that since wing talent is much more scarce than power forward talent at the moment, it should count heavily in Manu's favor.

for my friend that thinks Tony has great chances...looks like I wasn't the only one with these thoughts.

[ALVAREZ6]

Western Conference


Point guard: Chris Paul, New Orleans. This is the toughest position to pick in the whole league. Picking Paul means I did not pick Russell Westbrook, who averages 22 and 8 and ranks seventh in the league in PER, or Steve Nash, who is pushing for a career high in PER at age 36 despite the organizational tomfoolery that's denuded his team's roster, or Deron Williams, who has done the same with a stripped-down Utah squad.
wow...not even a mention for Tony from an analyst (Hollinger) that DOES know what he's talking about (even though his power rankings are gey). And yet, he is a lock.

[ALVAREZ6]

Magic Johnson said best: "Petrovic was just a scorer, Ginobili has multiple threats"

"Drazen could score, but who you seen dunk like this man here?" :lol That interview was filled with funny lines.

"I'm hungry?" :lmao


Ahh yes, here's that great interview:

MMX3niqRi-s


I'm fucking baffled that this dude may possibly retire with only 1 AS appearance.

[jestersmash]

Ginobili will make the all star team this year. He's a lock. I don't think I've seen a list yet from media that doesn't include Ginobili as a "lock."

Case in point:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/01/28/all-star-reserves-western-conference/

Best player on the team with the best record = all star lock.

[ALVAREZ6]

Ginobili will make the all star team this year. He's a lock. I don't think I've seen a list yet from media that doesn't include Ginobili as a "lock."

Case in point:

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/01/28/all-star-reserves-western-conference/

Best player on the team with the best record = all star lock.



http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110126

[jestersmash]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110126

Hollinger was talking about who deserved to be an all star starter. He wasn't talking about all star reserves.

And I posted the full article here a couple of days ago -

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171278

[jestersmash]

Wing: Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City. Picking Kobe as the first wing was easy. Splitting hairs between Manu Ginobili and Durant for the second spot was much more difficult. Durant has a higher efficiency mark and leads the league in scoring, even though his shooting numbers are a bit down from the past two seasons. Ginobili, meanwhile, has been the best player on the league's best team.

Ginobili has been the better defender thus far, but Durant also has a big advantage in minutes, one that I think is relevant in this case since it's hard to imagine Manu keeping up this output while playing 40 minutes every night. It feels a little odd to leave a 38-7 team with no starters, but denying Durant is equally inexplicable.


I don't think Hollinger did an article on all star reserves. Marc Stein did on one of his weekend dimes, I believe.

[MmP]

"Drazen could score, but who you seen dunk like this man here?" :lol That interview was filled with funny lines.

"I'm hungry?" :lmao


Ahh yes, here's that great interview:

MMX3niqRi-s


I'm fucking baffled that this dude may possibly retire with only 1 AS appearance.

I remember those times when Barkley recognizing Manu was a huge wow. I'd say he was pretty much the first one believing he'd be a star.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i hope both get snub for selection, just gives them more fire to light up till end of the season

[cd98]

The media will occasionally (rarely, actually) bring up Ginobili and hall of fame chances, and everybody agrees that he is a HOFer due to his achievements outside the NBA.

Manu Ginobili is Drazen Petrovic only far superior. Drazen was inducted into the hall of fame in 2002.

Right, but doesn't that kind of diminish his accomplishments in the NBA?

[jestersmash]

Hollinger just posted who he would pick for all star reserves -

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110131&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26page%3dPERDiem-110131

Can anybody with insider access post the article?

[ALVAREZ6]

Hollinger just posted who he would pick for all star reserves -

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-110131&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dholling er_john%26page%3dPERDiem-110131

Can anybody with insider access post the article?

Here's the west:

Western Conference
Guards

Williams
Deron Williams, Jazz: The Jazz's recent stumbles have had little to do with the play of Williams (well, except that Boston thing), who played at an MVP level the first month of the season and by and large has been really good even as the Jazz have struggled. If anything, Sunday's game in Golden State allowed everyone to see how fearsomely untalented the Jazz are once one subtracts Williams from the equation.

The most impressive thing about Williams' 2010-11 is that he's been able to boost both his usage and his efficiency; normally one can only increase the first by decreasing the second. His 60.2 TS percentage is a career best and he's pumping in 23.3 points per 40 minutes as he's been asked to take on a heavier scoring load.


Westbrook
Russell Westbrook, Thunder: Westbrook's defensive attentiveness fades in and out, which is why I rank him behind Williams on this list, but it's hard to argue with the rest of his performance. Like Williams, Westbrook has improved both is usage and his efficiency on offense. He's blossomed into a star by averaging a staggering 25 points per 40 minutes from the point and upping his TS percentage to a respectable 53, mostly by a constant attack mode that has sent him to the line over eight times a game. Westbrook adds to that by leading all point guards in rebound rate, offsetting what are still shaky credentials as a true point guard.

Center

Gasol
Pau Gasol, LA Lakers: The coaches are allowed considerable flexibility with positions, so it's completely permissible to list a player like Gasol at center even though he starts at power forward for the Lakers.

As for his qualifications, he's overly qualified and is likely to be named the starter to replace the injured Yao Ming. While Gasol has slumped a bit since a torrid first month, he ranks 12th in the NBA in PER thanks to his devastating efficiency in the low post and his underrated rebounding skill. As always, we just wish he'd do it a little more often -- 20 power forwards have a higher usage rate, even though only Dirk Nowitzki and Stoudemire can match his skill level.

Forwards

Nowitzki
Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks: Nowitzki missed nine games with a knee injury and has been wobbly since returning, but he still easily qualifies as one of the top 12 players in the West. At 32, he's shooting a career-high 52 percent and averaging just as many points per minutes as a year ago; his scoring average is down only because his minutes are too.

Nowitzki's remarkable consistency is another feather in his cap -- this is his seventh straight season with a PER of 23 or better, and he's scored in double figures in every game he's finished. As the unquestioned centerpiece of a likely top-four Western squad, there's no way he's not making it.


Love
Kevin Love, Timberwolves: Virtually every list I've seen has placed Love on the All-Star team, which may lead people to think he's a shoo-in. Actually, I'm dubious. For starters, there's the long-held bias against players from teams with losing records that I mentioned above.

But in Love's case, a larger bias is at work. Since I presume most of you don't regularly talk with scouts and assistant coaches, I can't emphasize this enough: It is shocking how dismissive virtually every old-school basketball type is of Love. Most personnel types grudgingly admit he's a spectacular rebounder before adding that he's unathletic, struggles on defense and basically doesn't fit their prototype of what a star big man ought to be.

Even his own coach was indifferent toward him for 10 games until the first 30-30 game in a quarter-century clued him in to the fact that Love might be pretty good. Since these are the people doing the voting, and since Love already faces an uphill battle thanks to his non-reclining middle seat aboard Kahn Air, I'm not sure if he's getting in.

I should point out that there is some validity to the scout-speak -- Love is a subpar defender and he can't consistently get his own shot. Nonetheless, it would be unprecedented to leave out a player with such spectacular individual accomplishments. Love has a whopping two-board lead on the field in the chase for the rebound title; additionally, he's shooting 44.5 percent on 3s, and scores at a phenomenal rate (23.5 points per 40 minutes) for a guy who never has plays called for him. The T-wolves may stink, but it's tough to pin that on him. In fact, I'd argue it hurts him -- by my calculations, Sota's soft defense costs Love nearly half a defensive rebound per game.

Wild cards

Ginobili
Manu Ginobili, Spurs: The best player on the league's best team, Ginobili nonetheless has a tough fight in this group. Despite playing only 31.5 minutes a game, he prevails for a few reasons. First, he's probably the best defender on this list other than Williams. Second, he's consistently played at this level for the past seven years, so we can confidently say this is his true level of ability and not a short-term fluke.

And third, he's vastly more qualified than any other perimeter player. The only question is whether one of the hordes of power forwards should outrank him. I would argue that since wing talent is much more scarce than power forward talent at the moment, it should count heavily in Manu's favor.


Nash
Steve Nash, Suns: Nash officially wins the "We changed, not you" award for 2010-11. He's having a season that's at least the equal of his 2004-05 and 2005-06 seasons; in those seasons he was honored with two MVP awards but in this one he probably won't even make the All-Star team.

Don't believe me? Let's do Rob Neyer's Player A/Player B test.

Player A: 15.5 points, 11.5 assists, 50.2 percent shooting, 22.04 PER
Player B: 17.0 points, 11.0 assists, 52.8 percent shooting, 24.05 PER

Quick, which one was an MVP year, and which one is this season? Give up?

Nash is playing one minute per game less than in his 2004-05 MVP year. One. Nonetheless, his percentages remain ridiculously good and his PER may set a new career high; his numbers also compared favorably to his 2005-06 MVP campaign.

And now we're gonna leave him off the All-Star team? If so, what we're basically saying is that Nash was responsible for having Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion on his team, and now it's his fault that they're gone. If you strictly follow the logic, that's where "rewarding winning" takes you. Unfortunately, there is no doubt in my mind that the coaches are going to hose Nash, even though it's preposterous to take somebody like Tim Duncan or David West ahead of him, which is what they'll do.

My seven-point list for the West, by the way, goes Gasol-Williams-Westbrook-Nowitzki-Ginobili-Love-Nash.

Injury substitution For Yao Ming

Griffin
Blake Griffin, Clippers: Gee, if it comes down to this and the commissioner has to choose between Blake Griffin and, well, anybody, whom do you suppose he'll pick? Those who have conspiracy theories about the commish wanting to keep Griffin in the rookie-sophomore game can forget it -- that thing is such an afterthought they give away the tickets to teeming hordes of shrieking kids. The league wants the Blake Show in the big event Sunday.

Griffin's addition is also justifiable in basketball terms, although it's very a close call between Griffin, Zach Randolph and David West for my final spot. Actually, I think both West and Griffin will make the team in real life -- the coaches will snub Nash and Love and take West and Tim Duncan instead, and then Stern will pick Griffin.

But in John's little world the vote is down to Z-Bo, West or Griffin, and it's a nail-biter. West can't match the other two on PER, but he's a much better defender, especially this season -- he'd kinda mailed it in at the end of the Byron Scott era but has redoubled his efforts under Monty Williams. Also, West hasn't had the benefit of playing nearly all his games at home like Griffin, and Randolph has had a decidedly road-heavy slate.

However, what tilted the balance for me was Griffin's monthly splits -- he's still gaining steam as a force in this league, so I would argue that mid-February Griffin is better than mid-February West and Randolph, even if that statement may not apply to the entire first half of the season. Randolph, incidentally, would be my choice for the next roster spot if Nowitzki decides to sit the game out because of his knee, or if Carmelo Anthony is traded to the East in the next two weeks.

Actually, if by some stroke of misfortune two players from my above list couldn't participate (let's say Melo gets traded and Dirk's knee makes him exit), then I would pick Randolph next.

Snubs
OK, let's talk first about Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Spurs fans will undoubtedly be outraged that I only picked one player even though they're 40-7, making the infamous "representation" argument; this line of thought makes sense until you remember we're picking an All-Star team, not choosing delegates to a convention. When you ask for representation over having the best basketball players you're essentially asking for more Mo Williamses and Wally Szczerbiaks. No thanks.

"How can a 40-7 team have only one All-Star?" is the other question I get, but actually it's fairly common. The past two Cleveland teams were perhaps an extreme example, but in San Antonio's case it's just as easy to explain: They have three of the top 20 players in the conference and eight of the top 75. That stacks up favorably with everyone else, and they haven't had any injuries, and that's why they've won.

So sorry, San Antonio -- I'm not going to endorse Tony Parker just because his front office found Gary Neal and DeJuan Blair, or nominate Duncan because Richard Jefferson figured out how to play off the ball. Instead, I have to compare the individual output of Duncan and Parker to their peers, and when I do, they don't stand up.

Nene, Nuggets: He has a much stronger case than most people realize, and if Anthony hadn't snagged a slot in fan voting he might be getting a heavier push for a spot. The number that kills him, however, is 30.5 -- that' s how many minutes per game he plays, making it tough to put him ahead of the guys who get close to 40.

LaMarcus Aldridge, Blazers: He has been mentioned for the All-Star team quite a bit because he played so well in the month leading up to the vote, right up until his duds against Sacramento and Boston this week. The Blazers' big man would be a shoo-in in the East, of course, but there are simply too many good power forwards in the West, and there's really nothing in his résumé that sets him apart from the others. In retrospect, a slow November killed him.

Eric Gordon, Clippers: He is hurt now, but even before the injury, he suffered from two factors -- nobody was going to take a second player from a Clippers team that's in 13th place in the West, and he plays guard in a conference stacked with great guards. What he did do was establish himself as a legitimate aspirant for a spot on next year's squad, especially with most of the good players at his position getting rather long in the tooth.

Monta Ellis: He is a monument to the extremes of the quantity-over-quality approach. While he's improved his shot selection from last year's "reprehensible" to this year's grade of "shaky," he still suffers in any apples-to-apples comparison with his peers. Ellis is third in the league in scoring largely because he plays an insane number of minutes for a fast-paced team. But adjust for pace and minutes and he's 15th with a league-average true shooting percentage and mediocre secondary stats.

The most damning line on Ellis's résumé, however, remains the fact that an awful defensive team magically becomes decent as soon as he checks out of the game. Looking at Golden State's basketballvalue.com chart will amaze you -- no other substitution has any impact on their defensive numbers, but replacing Ellis immediately produces a dramatic improvement.

In the East, perhaps I could look past all these warts, but in the West it makes him a no-hoper.

Kevin Martin, Rockets: He is the opposite of Ellis -- he's arguably the league's most potent scorer, but his accomplishments are masked by his low minutes and limited impact in other areas. His true shooting percentage remains ridiculous and he's second in the NBA in pace-adjusted points per 40 minutes behind Kobe Bryant, but he's only playing 31.2 minutes a game. Martin's bigger shortcoming, however, is that he provides zilch in the other categories; in fact, he might be even worse on defense than Ellis. He does, however, have the best PER of any player I excluded that has played at least 1,000 minutes.

Lakers fans argue for Lamar Odom because he's really good. That's the problem, though -- "really good" doesn't cut it in this crowd. If you aren't a big star, you aren't getting into this game from the West. News flash: Odom isn't. Ditto for Luis Scola, Rudy Gay and Tyson Chandler.

By my count, that's 23 players from the West (not counting Yao) with legitimate All-Star-caliber first halves of the season. It's a shame we can't export a few more of them eastward.

[jestersmash]

Here's the west:

Western Conference
Guards

Williams
Deron Williams, Jazz: The Jazz's recent stumbles have had little to do with the play of Williams (well, except that Boston thing), who played at an MVP level the first month of the season and by and large has been really good even as the Jazz have struggled. If anything, Sunday's game in Golden State allowed everyone to see how fearsomely untalented the Jazz are once one subtracts Williams from the equation.

The most impressive thing about Williams' 2010-11 is that he's been able to boost both his usage and his efficiency; normally one can only increase the first by decreasing the second. His 60.2 TS percentage is a career best and he's pumping in 23.3 points per 40 minutes as he's been asked to take on a heavier scoring load.


Westbrook
Russell Westbrook, Thunder: Westbrook's defensive attentiveness fades in and out, which is why I rank him behind Williams on this list, but it's hard to argue with the rest of his performance. Like Williams, Westbrook has improved both is usage and his efficiency on offense. He's blossomed into a star by averaging a staggering 25 points per 40 minutes from the point and upping his TS percentage to a respectable 53, mostly by a constant attack mode that has sent him to the line over eight times a game. Westbrook adds to that by leading all point guards in rebound rate, offsetting what are still shaky credentials as a true point guard.

Center

Gasol
Pau Gasol, LA Lakers: The coaches are allowed considerable flexibility with positions, so it's completely permissible to list a player like Gasol at center even though he starts at power forward for the Lakers.

As for his qualifications, he's overly qualified and is likely to be named the starter to replace the injured Yao Ming. While Gasol has slumped a bit since a torrid first month, he ranks 12th in the NBA in PER thanks to his devastating efficiency in the low post and his underrated rebounding skill. As always, we just wish he'd do it a little more often -- 20 power forwards have a higher usage rate, even though only Dirk Nowitzki and Stoudemire can match his skill level.

Forwards

Nowitzki
Dirk Nowitzki, Mavericks: Nowitzki missed nine games with a knee injury and has been wobbly since returning, but he still easily qualifies as one of the top 12 players in the West. At 32, he's shooting a career-high 52 percent and averaging just as many points per minutes as a year ago; his scoring average is down only because his minutes are too.

Nowitzki's remarkable consistency is another feather in his cap -- this is his seventh straight season with a PER of 23 or better, and he's scored in double figures in every game he's finished. As the unquestioned centerpiece of a likely top-four Western squad, there's no way he's not making it.


Love
Kevin Love, Timberwolves: Virtually every list I've seen has placed Love on the All-Star team, which may lead people to think he's a shoo-in. Actually, I'm dubious. For starters, there's the long-held bias against players from teams with losing records that I mentioned above.

But in Love's case, a larger bias is at work. Since I presume most of you don't regularly talk with scouts and assistant coaches, I can't emphasize this enough: It is shocking how dismissive virtually every old-school basketball type is of Love. Most personnel types grudgingly admit he's a spectacular rebounder before adding that he's unathletic, struggles on defense and basically doesn't fit their prototype of what a star big man ought to be.

Even his own coach was indifferent toward him for 10 games until the first 30-30 game in a quarter-century clued him in to the fact that Love might be pretty good. Since these are the people doing the voting, and since Love already faces an uphill battle thanks to his non-reclining middle seat aboard Kahn Air, I'm not sure if he's getting in.

I should point out that there is some validity to the scout-speak -- Love is a subpar defender and he can't consistently get his own shot. Nonetheless, it would be unprecedented to leave out a player with such spectacular individual accomplishments. Love has a whopping two-board lead on the field in the chase for the rebound title; additionally, he's shooting 44.5 percent on 3s, and scores at a phenomenal rate (23.5 points per 40 minutes) for a guy who never has plays called for him. The T-wolves may stink, but it's tough to pin that on him. In fact, I'd argue it hurts him -- by my calculations, Sota's soft defense costs Love nearly half a defensive rebound per game.

Wild cards

Ginobili
Manu Ginobili, Spurs: The best player on the league's best team, Ginobili nonetheless has a tough fight in this group. Despite playing only 31.5 minutes a game, he prevails for a few reasons. First, he's probably the best defender on this list other than Williams. Second, he's consistently played at this level for the past seven years, so we can confidently say this is his true level of ability and not a short-term fluke.

And third, he's vastly more qualified than any other perimeter player. The only question is whether one of the hordes of power forwards should outrank him. I would argue that since wing talent is much more scarce than power forward talent at the moment, it should count heavily in Manu's favor.


Nash
Steve Nash, Suns: Nash officially wins the "We changed, not you" award for 2010-11. He's having a season that's at least the equal of his 2004-05 and 2005-06 seasons; in those seasons he was honored with two MVP awards but in this one he probably won't even make the All-Star team.

Don't believe me? Let's do Rob Neyer's Player A/Player B test.

Player A: 15.5 points, 11.5 assists, 50.2 percent shooting, 22.04 PER
Player B: 17.0 points, 11.0 assists, 52.8 percent shooting, 24.05 PER

Quick, which one was an MVP year, and which one is this season? Give up?

Nash is playing one minute per game less than in his 2004-05 MVP year. One. Nonetheless, his percentages remain ridiculously good and his PER may set a new career high; his numbers also compared favorably to his 2005-06 MVP campaign.

And now we're gonna leave him off the All-Star team? If so, what we're basically saying is that Nash was responsible for having Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion on his team, and now it's his fault that they're gone. If you strictly follow the logic, that's where "rewarding winning" takes you. Unfortunately, there is no doubt in my mind that the coaches are going to hose Nash, even though it's preposterous to take somebody like Tim Duncan or David West ahead of him, which is what they'll do.

My seven-point list for the West, by the way, goes Gasol-Williams-Westbrook-Nowitzki-Ginobili-Love-Nash.

Injury substitution For Yao Ming

Griffin
Blake Griffin, Clippers: Gee, if it comes down to this and the commissioner has to choose between Blake Griffin and, well, anybody, whom do you suppose he'll pick? Those who have conspiracy theories about the commish wanting to keep Griffin in the rookie-sophomore game can forget it -- that thing is such an afterthought they give away the tickets to teeming hordes of shrieking kids. The league wants the Blake Show in the big event Sunday.

Griffin's addition is also justifiable in basketball terms, although it's very a close call between Griffin, Zach Randolph and David West for my final spot. Actually, I think both West and Griffin will make the team in real life -- the coaches will snub Nash and Love and take West and Tim Duncan instead, and then Stern will pick Griffin.

But in John's little world the vote is down to Z-Bo, West or Griffin, and it's a nail-biter. West can't match the other two on PER, but he's a much better defender, especially this season -- he'd kinda mailed it in at the end of the Byron Scott era but has redoubled his efforts under Monty Williams. Also, West hasn't had the benefit of playing nearly all his games at home like Griffin, and Randolph has had a decidedly road-heavy slate.

However, what tilted the balance for me was Griffin's monthly splits -- he's still gaining steam as a force in this league, so I would argue that mid-February Griffin is better than mid-February West and Randolph, even if that statement may not apply to the entire first half of the season. Randolph, incidentally, would be my choice for the next roster spot if Nowitzki decides to sit the game out because of his knee, or if Carmelo Anthony is traded to the East in the next two weeks.

Actually, if by some stroke of misfortune two players from my above list couldn't participate (let's say Melo gets traded and Dirk's knee makes him exit), then I would pick Randolph next.

Snubs
OK, let's talk first about Tony Parker and Tim Duncan. Spurs fans will undoubtedly be outraged that I only picked one player even though they're 40-7, making the infamous "representation" argument; this line of thought makes sense until you remember we're picking an All-Star team, not choosing delegates to a convention. When you ask for representation over having the best basketball players you're essentially asking for more Mo Williamses and Wally Szczerbiaks. No thanks.

"How can a 40-7 team have only one All-Star?" is the other question I get, but actually it's fairly common. The past two Cleveland teams were perhaps an extreme example, but in San Antonio's case it's just as easy to explain: They have three of the top 20 players in the conference and eight of the top 75. That stacks up favorably with everyone else, and they haven't had any injuries, and that's why they've won.

So sorry, San Antonio -- I'm not going to endorse Tony Parker just because his front office found Gary Neal and DeJuan Blair, or nominate Duncan because Richard Jefferson figured out how to play off the ball. Instead, I have to compare the individual output of Duncan and Parker to their peers, and when I do, they don't stand up.

Nene, Nuggets: He has a much stronger case than most people realize, and if Anthony hadn't snagged a slot in fan voting he might be getting a heavier push for a spot. The number that kills him, however, is 30.5 -- that' s how many minutes per game he plays, making it tough to put him ahead of the guys who get close to 40.

LaMarcus Aldridge, Blazers: He has been mentioned for the All-Star team quite a bit because he played so well in the month leading up to the vote, right up until his duds against Sacramento and Boston this week. The Blazers' big man would be a shoo-in in the East, of course, but there are simply too many good power forwards in the West, and there's really nothing in his résumé that sets him apart from the others. In retrospect, a slow November killed him.

Eric Gordon, Clippers: He is hurt now, but even before the injury, he suffered from two factors -- nobody was going to take a second player from a Clippers team that's in 13th place in the West, and he plays guard in a conference stacked with great guards. What he did do was establish himself as a legitimate aspirant for a spot on next year's squad, especially with most of the good players at his position getting rather long in the tooth.

Monta Ellis: He is a monument to the extremes of the quantity-over-quality approach. While he's improved his shot selection from last year's "reprehensible" to this year's grade of "shaky," he still suffers in any apples-to-apples comparison with his peers. Ellis is third in the league in scoring largely because he plays an insane number of minutes for a fast-paced team. But adjust for pace and minutes and he's 15th with a league-average true shooting percentage and mediocre secondary stats.

The most damning line on Ellis's résumé, however, remains the fact that an awful defensive team magically becomes decent as soon as he checks out of the game. Looking at Golden State's basketballvalue.com chart will amaze you -- no other substitution has any impact on their defensive numbers, but replacing Ellis immediately produces a dramatic improvement.

In the East, perhaps I could look past all these warts, but in the West it makes him a no-hoper.

Kevin Martin, Rockets: He is the opposite of Ellis -- he's arguably the league's most potent scorer, but his accomplishments are masked by his low minutes and limited impact in other areas. His true shooting percentage remains ridiculous and he's second in the NBA in pace-adjusted points per 40 minutes behind Kobe Bryant, but he's only playing 31.2 minutes a game. Martin's bigger shortcoming, however, is that he provides zilch in the other categories; in fact, he might be even worse on defense than Ellis. He does, however, have the best PER of any player I excluded that has played at least 1,000 minutes.

Lakers fans argue for Lamar Odom because he's really good. That's the problem, though -- "really good" doesn't cut it in this crowd. If you aren't a big star, you aren't getting into this game from the West. News flash: Odom isn't. Ditto for Luis Scola, Rudy Gay and Tyson Chandler.

By my count, that's 23 players from the West (not counting Yao) with legitimate All-Star-caliber first halves of the season. It's a shame we can't export a few more of them eastward.

Thanks, but I posted the full article already here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171459

[ALVAREZ6]

Eastern Conference
Guards

Rondo
Rajon Rondo, Celtics: The first guard reserve for the East is a comically easy call, as he's the only one having a truly All-Star-caliber season. Rondo leads the league in assists and continues to befuddle opposing offenses with his long arms and ball-hawking pressure, all of which make him an extremely valuable player despite the fact that he can't make a foul shot (49.2 percent? That's just embarrassing) and is erratic at best from the perimeter. His D is a big reason Boston's second in defensive efficiency, and his passing is a huge factor in their second-place ranking in true shooting percentage.


Johnson
Joe Johnson, Hawks: This is tricky, because there aren't four guards deserving of making the All-Star team in the East, but the rules require the coaches to select two subs in additions to starters Wade and Rose. The three least-unqualified ones for the last spot are Johnson, Boston's Ray Allen, and New York's Raymond Felton. Felton appeared to have this wrapped up by Christmas but basically disqualified himself with a brutal January, dropping to 17th among point guards in PER.

That leaves Johnson and Allen, and there's a strong irony there, because over the past seven years or so these two have accounted for more dodgy All-Star selections than the rest of the league put together. They may each get another.

I chose Johnson, for three reasons. First, he's having a better season statistically, despite playing much of the season with an injured elbow. Second, he's been better over the past several seasons, so we can't dismiss this as some kind of short-term blip -- the last time Allen had a better PER, he was a Sonic.

There's a good chance the coaches pick Allen instead. He's more famous and his team has won more games, and Johnson has been maligned for the contract the Hawks gave him -- though I'll remind everyone that it didn't make him any worse a player.

Forwards

Garnett
Kevin Garnett, Celtics: When he isn't seeking out the opposition's least threatening player for displays of false bravado, Garnett is once again the game's most imposing defender at his position. The movement that returned during last season's playoffs has stayed with him this entire campaign, and he's supported it by supplying more post offense than a year ago. Garnett is shooting 53.3 percent and averaging nearly a point every two minutes; if you ignored defense entirely, he'd still be a solid pick here.

Nonetheless, the D is the difference-maker for KG -- nobody can match his combination of length, mobility and intensity, and there's no question that his superior effort rubs off on his teammates. It's pretty amazing considering just a year ago we were worried that Garnett's knee problems would end his career. That's no longer a concern; instead, his career will end when an opponent throws him through the stanchion.


Pierce
Paul Pierce, Celtics: Because Boston kept winning, nobody talked much about Pierce's steady offensive decline over the past three seasons. And because of that, nobody has talked much about his resurrection in 2010-11 at the age of 33.

Pierce's 51.2 percent shooting mark is a career high, as are his 42.3 percent on 3s and 85.3 percent from the line. His rebound rate is as high as it's been in half a decade. He's making dramatically fewer turnovers than in the past several seasons, and he remains one of the game's most underrated defenders. In an Eastern Conference largely devoid of good small forward candidates, he's about as obvious a choice as they come.

Center

Horford
Al Horford, Hawks: Horford is one of the most improved players in basketball and has been, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best player on the Hawks this season. His once-mechanical post game has now become increasingly refined (well, except for the part where he swings the ball from hip to hip 27 times in a row before making his move) and his mid-range jump shot is money, plus he's the only center in the league who routinely snares defensive rebounds, pushes it upcourt and makes the right decision in transition.

The proof is in the numbers, of course: Horford is shooting 57 percent while playing a much more prominent role in the Atlanta offense, has cut his turnovers and maintained his solid rebound rate, and among centers who actually score, only Brad Miller has a better assist rate. The amazing part is that the 6-foot-10 Horford is a natural power forward who has been able to thrive out of position.

Wild cards

Bosh
Chris Bosh, Heat: As a reminder, coaches are required to list two forwards, two guards, two fake tough guys and a center with their reserves. I've already chosen a center, two guards and a fake tough guy, so Bosh is the obvious name left on the list. While offensively his game has been in-and-out, especially early in the season, defensively he's much more engaged than he was in Toronto, and as the lone quality big man on one of the league's premier defensive teams, he needs to be.

This is despite Bosh's numbers being well down from what he produced in Toronto. Offensively he has had fewer touches but, unexpectedly, is also shooting a lower percentage. And his rebound rate has withered to its lowest level since his rookie season. He'd have a lot of trouble getting into the game from the West because of this, but in this conference he's overqualified.


Boozer
Carlos Boozer, Bulls: Many will be tempted to look at Ray Allen or Josh Smith for this spot, especially since Boozer has only played 29 games.

Here's what it comes down to for me: Boozer is better than Allen and Smith. He was better last season, he's been better when he's played this season, and we expect him to be better next season. The fact that he missed so many games did nothing to alter that hierarchy. So if we're selecting the best players, why on earth would we exclude him? It's not like he's slacked off, either -- Boozer has the best PER of any East power forward with at least 750 minutes played.

Another reminder -- coaches list their reserves in order of priority, with seven points for the first name and one point for the seventh. Using that scale, I'll list my East ballot as Horford-Rondo-Garnett-Pierce-Bosh-Boozer-Johnson.

Snubs
There are none. Don't give me this tripe about Allen or Andrew Bogut or Smith -- they haven't played well enough, and in the West they wouldn't even get the time of day.

If anything, we have the opposite of snubs. I'll call them "Sbuns" -- players who aren't having All-Star seasons but made the team because we couldn't come up with 12 legit All-Stars from the East. Joe Johnson, Chris Bosh and Carlos Boozer are definitely Sbuns this season.

[jestersmash]

Eastern Conference
Guards

Rondo
Rajon Rondo, Celtics: The first guard reserve for the East is a comically easy call, as he's the only one having a truly All-Star-caliber season. Rondo leads the league in assists and continues to befuddle opposing offenses with his long arms and ball-hawking pressure, all of which make him an extremely valuable player despite the fact that he can't make a foul shot (49.2 percent? That's just embarrassing) and is erratic at best from the perimeter. His D is a big reason Boston's second in defensive efficiency, and his passing is a huge factor in their second-place ranking in true shooting percentage.


Johnson
Joe Johnson, Hawks: This is tricky, because there aren't four guards deserving of making the All-Star team in the East, but the rules require the coaches to select two subs in additions to starters Wade and Rose. The three least-unqualified ones for the last spot are Johnson, Boston's Ray Allen, and New York's Raymond Felton. Felton appeared to have this wrapped up by Christmas but basically disqualified himself with a brutal January, dropping to 17th among point guards in PER.

That leaves Johnson and Allen, and there's a strong irony there, because over the past seven years or so these two have accounted for more dodgy All-Star selections than the rest of the league put together. They may each get another.

I chose Johnson, for three reasons. First, he's having a better season statistically, despite playing much of the season with an injured elbow. Second, he's been better over the past several seasons, so we can't dismiss this as some kind of short-term blip -- the last time Allen had a better PER, he was a Sonic.

There's a good chance the coaches pick Allen instead. He's more famous and his team has won more games, and Johnson has been maligned for the contract the Hawks gave him -- though I'll remind everyone that it didn't make him any worse a player.

Forwards

Garnett
Kevin Garnett, Celtics: When he isn't seeking out the opposition's least threatening player for displays of false bravado, Garnett is once again the game's most imposing defender at his position. The movement that returned during last season's playoffs has stayed with him this entire campaign, and he's supported it by supplying more post offense than a year ago. Garnett is shooting 53.3 percent and averaging nearly a point every two minutes; if you ignored defense entirely, he'd still be a solid pick here.

Nonetheless, the D is the difference-maker for KG -- nobody can match his combination of length, mobility and intensity, and there's no question that his superior effort rubs off on his teammates. It's pretty amazing considering just a year ago we were worried that Garnett's knee problems would end his career. That's no longer a concern; instead, his career will end when an opponent throws him through the stanchion.


Pierce
Paul Pierce, Celtics: Because Boston kept winning, nobody talked much about Pierce's steady offensive decline over the past three seasons. And because of that, nobody has talked much about his resurrection in 2010-11 at the age of 33.

Pierce's 51.2 percent shooting mark is a career high, as are his 42.3 percent on 3s and 85.3 percent from the line. His rebound rate is as high as it's been in half a decade. He's making dramatically fewer turnovers than in the past several seasons, and he remains one of the game's most underrated defenders. In an Eastern Conference largely devoid of good small forward candidates, he's about as obvious a choice as they come.

Center

Horford
Al Horford, Hawks: Horford is one of the most improved players in basketball and has been, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the best player on the Hawks this season. His once-mechanical post game has now become increasingly refined (well, except for the part where he swings the ball from hip to hip 27 times in a row before making his move) and his mid-range jump shot is money, plus he's the only center in the league who routinely snares defensive rebounds, pushes it upcourt and makes the right decision in transition.

The proof is in the numbers, of course: Horford is shooting 57 percent while playing a much more prominent role in the Atlanta offense, has cut his turnovers and maintained his solid rebound rate, and among centers who actually score, only Brad Miller has a better assist rate. The amazing part is that the 6-foot-10 Horford is a natural power forward who has been able to thrive out of position.

Wild cards

Bosh
Chris Bosh, Heat: As a reminder, coaches are required to list two forwards, two guards, two fake tough guys and a center with their reserves. I've already chosen a center, two guards and a fake tough guy, so Bosh is the obvious name left on the list. While offensively his game has been in-and-out, especially early in the season, defensively he's much more engaged than he was in Toronto, and as the lone quality big man on one of the league's premier defensive teams, he needs to be.

This is despite Bosh's numbers being well down from what he produced in Toronto. Offensively he has had fewer touches but, unexpectedly, is also shooting a lower percentage. And his rebound rate has withered to its lowest level since his rookie season. He'd have a lot of trouble getting into the game from the West because of this, but in this conference he's overqualified.


Boozer
Carlos Boozer, Bulls: Many will be tempted to look at Ray Allen or Josh Smith for this spot, especially since Boozer has only played 29 games.

Here's what it comes down to for me: Boozer is better than Allen and Smith. He was better last season, he's been better when he's played this season, and we expect him to be better next season. The fact that he missed so many games did nothing to alter that hierarchy. So if we're selecting the best players, why on earth would we exclude him? It's not like he's slacked off, either -- Boozer has the best PER of any East power forward with at least 750 minutes played.

Another reminder -- coaches list their reserves in order of priority, with seven points for the first name and one point for the seventh. Using that scale, I'll list my East ballot as Horford-Rondo-Garnett-Pierce-Bosh-Boozer-Johnson.

Snubs
There are none. Don't give me this tripe about Allen or Andrew Bogut or Smith -- they haven't played well enough, and in the West they wouldn't even get the time of day.

If anything, we have the opposite of snubs. I'll call them "Sbuns" -- players who aren't having All-Star seasons but made the team because we couldn't come up with 12 legit All-Stars from the East. Joe Johnson, Chris Bosh and Carlos Boozer are definitely Sbuns this season.

:lol I posted that part too.

I do appreciate it, though.

[ALVAREZ6]

Yes I know, we essentially posted posts #120 and 121 at the same time and therefore I didn't notice til after

[JustinJDW]

Tony is more consistent and is a 24/7 scorer in all games throughout the whole season, but Manu is our closer.

[ducks]

to bad for manu backers
tp in past always gets voted in by coaches

[ALVAREZ6]

to bad for manu backers
tp in past always gets voted in by coaches

why does he only have 3 all-star appearances?


are you lying to me again ducks???

[analyzed]

What Manu has that Drazen doesn't is rings, and multiple of them.

and an Olympic gold medal ! that is a heck of a differentiator , no one remembers who won the silver behind Jesse Ownens . And BTW Manu's led national team was the first team to beat an NBA team , both in 2002 and in the 2004 Olympics ( these are things legends are made off) . Honestly from a Global perspective not limited to the NBA, the lasting impression Manu leaves when he retires, is he will easily be considered one of the top 10 greatest basketball players ever.

[jestersmash]

and an Olympic gold medal ! that is a heck of a differentiator , no one remembers who won the silver behind Jesse Ownens . And BTW Manu's led national team was the first team to beat an NBA team , both in 2002 and in the 2004 Olympics ( these are things legends are made off) . Honestly from a Global perspective not limited to the NBA, the lasting impression Manu leaves when he retires, is he will easily be considered one of the top 10 greatest basketball players ever.

:lol now I wouldn't go that far. It certainly makes him a lock for the hall of fame, though.

[ducks]

why does he only have 3 all-star appearances?


are you lying to me again ducks???

more then manu and more finals mvp then manu

[ElNono]

ducks, what are your thoughts on the chances Lebron has of being named the ASG MVP?

[ALVAREZ6]

more then manu and more finals mvp then manu
I know English is tough for you, but you did not answer my questions. Please reread them a little bit more slowly, and try again.

[ducks]

not to hard
he is more then a one time allstar like manu
and a finals mvp
coaches like him

[Tp9gospursgo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFU-wXsRhic

[Tp9gospursgo]

not to hard
he is more then a one time allstar like manu
and a finals mvp
coaches like him

I'm a huge Tony fan, but c'mon man. Manu is playing lights out this year. Way better than Tony especially.

[ducks]

really?

manu and tp numbers are close IMO
but manu gets more shot attempts in the 4 so he is way better NOT

tp sets the tone early gets usually 8-10 points in first and more assist after first
he sets up other guys later in the game


but I guess if manu just played the last 2 minutes of a game he would be the best LOL

it does not matter that other players got manu in the postion to close the game out

[Spurs Brazil]

This forum has been begging for a legitimate reason for Spurs fans to pit Manu Ginobili against Tony Parker with real vitriol for a while -- I personally consider the absence of those threads one of the few unfortunate consequences of a 40-7 start (for the record, I think we're also woefully short of: "the refs screwed us" threads, legitimate "Fire Pop!" meltdowns, and "[D-League guy] is the answer" rants).

And after one day we have this:


"the refs screwed us" threads: Does anyone literally realize how bad the officiating is right now? http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171543



"[D-League guy] is the answer" rants): Lets Get Sean Williams http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171559

Now we only need the Fire Pop to back to normal life :lol

[FromWayDowntown]

And after one day we have this:

: Does anyone literally realize how bad the officiating is right now? http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171543


: Lets Get Sean Williams http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171559

Now we only need the Fire Pop to back to normal life :lol

Wait for it . . . .

If things go badly tonight, life around ST should return to normal -- we'll have gotten (in one week): Manu v. Tony, Fire Pop!, Screwed by Officials, and D-League Stud

[ElNono]

Wait for it . . . .

If things go badly tonight, life around ST should return to normal -- we'll have gotten (in one week): Manu v. Tony, Fire Pop!, Screwed by Officials, and D-League Stud

At least nobody is going to be blaming Bonner :lol

[ALVAREZ6]

TP will be in, period.



TP has small chances in making this ASG. Saying he will be in period/for sure/without a doubt....is a pretty stupid thing to say tbh.


Let's revisit the issue after the rosters have been set.

It's as stupid as you saying he has small chances.


The point guard position is deep league-wide, but not so much in the West. (LOL...WHAT?) Paul and Williams are obviously the two best and most heralded players in the West and both make it. I'd have to say, though, that after those two, you'd have to take Parker over Nash and Westbrook because Parker has played as good or better than those two and he is on a team that is making a historic run. It all depends on how many guards they take (will there be extra point guards or extra forwards).




Ok, that's two PGs CLEARLY ahead of Parker.

Nash probably also is on the same level, if not better IMO because he's still shooting 52% (like parker #s) and averaging 11 assists per game in a completely changed team.

Westbrook's stats are retarded good, but yeah he's not on the Spurs, but still a respectable team.



Manu, by contrast, has one clear SG above him: Kobe Bryant. and even this season, it's not totally clear, but when it all comes down to it, sure I agree Kobe should be ahead of Manu.

Every other SG in the west is clearly inferior to Manu. Clearly. Manu is a top 3 SG in the league, period. And we both know for the reserves, it doesn't matter exactly which guard or forward position you play, but one thing I believe is that Manu has better chances than Tony, for the reasons already given in this thread.

And Manu making in my opinion, actually lowers the chances Tony will also, because he is another guard at west ahead of him, on top of all of the PGs out west. Given Manu makes it, I highly doubt they're putting Tony ahead of D-Will, and with all of the great forwards out west also, I think it's very very very very very very very stupid to claim that Tony will make it, period.


It's a long shot. If he makes it, awesome, but I wouldn't count on it.




FTLSpur, where you at boy

[ElNono]

really? :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry

[jestersmash]

ALVAREZ6 with the call out

[ALVAREZ6]

ALVAREZ6 with the call out

:tu


I was simply honoring the man's/woman's idea to revisit after the rosters have been set. Well, there they are.

[lefty]

http://i55.tinypic.com/2uz34zm.png

[ducks]

d williams is so overrated

boston shut his ass down 5 points LOL

[lefty]

d williams is so overrated

boston shut his ass down 5 points LOL
At least the Celtics are a great defensive team

LOL Parker with 6 pts vs Portland

[Naelven]

And TP will score a season high tonight against Lakers just to tell everyone...Hey guys...I dont give a shit of my stats (this is an american way of analyze player performance), I am here to win...but I will show you that I can score at will when I want.

TP not an all stars...well good, he will get some rest.
But imo, all the Big 3 should have been choosen (Boston, 2nd in the league and got 4 allstars...come on.....)

[ALVAREZ6]

d williams is so overrated

:lmao:lmao:lmao


You are honestly the most consistent poster on this entire site, it's good stuff. Well, good for me because it's comical but not exactly good for you because you're consistently moronic.

[TMTTRIO]

Well at this point Manu doesn't deserve to be an All Star the way he's been playing. Maybe Tony should take his spot and Manu should take his boys to a secluded beach and just chill.

[Ghjkll]

Manu deserved to be an all-star in 2007-2008, too. It´s so rare to see a guy like Joe Jonhson as a five time all-star, while Manu will finish his career with only two.

[Solid D]

Well at this point Manu doesn't deserve to be an All Star the way he's been playing. Maybe Tony should take his spot and Manu should take his boys to a secluded beach and just chill.

Young fella, even great players go through ups and downs. Manu was back to leading the team in scoring tonight with a nice assortment of plays and dagger shots. He is well-deserving of his All-Star slot this year.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu deserved to be an all-star in 2007-2008, too. It´s so rare to see a guy like Joe Jonhson as a five time all-star, while Manu will finish his career with only two.

That's why the ASG doesn't matter.

[Brazil]

manu shitting on ST as usual lol

[lefty]

TP shitting on Manu as usual lol
fify

[DMC]

Because he is Manu Ginobili
/thread

[DMC]

http://i55.tinypic.com/2uz34zm.png

That's the greatest photoshop ever posted.

[lefty]

That's the greatest photoshop ever posted.
I didnt make that one :D

To the author :worthy: