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RandomGuy
02-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Shocker.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110202/us_yblog_thelookout/study-says-college-isnt-for-everyone

A new Harvard study (http://www.gse.harvard.edu/news_events/features/2011/Pathways_to_Prosperity_Feb2011.pdf)(PDF) says American students need to begin to decide in middle school whether they want to prepare for four-year college and then a career. The alternative approach, the study says, is to begin vocational training for a job earlier.

The study is inspired by European systems of education, and its authors say too many students are graduating high school without middle-level skills that could help them land well-paying jobs as electricians, for example. About a third of jobs in the next decade won't require a four-year college education, the study says, and this program would help American kids prepare for them.

The study may raise the specter of "tracking"--the process by which minority and poor kids are pushed into vocational programs at their schools and held to lower expectations. EdWeek's Catherine Gewertz notes that the authors seem to anticipate that concern, writing that students should be able to change their minds about whether they want to go to college or try a different career at any time. But the report also argues that "the coursetaking requirements for entry into the most demanding four-year colleges should not be imposed on students seeking careers with fewer academic requirements."

Gewertz writes that one of the study's co-authors, Robert Schwartz, previously championed a "college for all" approach to K-12 education.


Higher ed policy analyst Sandy Baum told the AP the idea is to enhance opportunities for everyone. "What we'd like is a system where people of all backgrounds could choose to be plumbers or to be philosophers," Baum added. "Those options are not open. But we certainly need plumbers so it's wrong to think we should be nervous about directing people in that route."

President Obama has said he wants the United States to lead the world in college graduation rates again.

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I have seen an interesting argument about encouraging college in this country recently made by an economist:


We are spending too much on encouraging people to go to college.

After WW2, we got the "low hanging fruit" by getting a lot of people into college that would not have otherwise gone, and have since done a good job at getting people into college.

The kicker is that almost anybody who really can go to college already does. There is little "bang for the buck" for any extra spending.

While this may hold true better for a static, unchanging population, new kids enter college every day. I can sort of buy into this argument, but one has to constantly be making sure people who really can succeed in college are getting there.

That said, many other countries that we always get measured up against have similar splits when it comes to vocational/college bound.

They test their high schoolers at some point, and split people off into two groups. The stronger academics go to college, the weaker get more vocational.

The above "split" is why many think the US tends to not do that well in country to country comparisons. The top 50% of one country is measured against the average kid in our country. Not quite a completely "fair" measure.

I think such vocational training is a good idea.

Wild Cobra
02-03-2011, 12:21 PM
Who cares what a college educated asshole thinks?

101A
02-03-2011, 01:19 PM
Haven't read the op, just responding to the title:

...water is wet, and the Pope is Catholic

101A
02-03-2011, 01:23 PM
I'm thinking anyone that knows how to work with their hands in 20 years is going to be in serious demand; trades could be more lucrative for many students than college.

Generic undergrad social science degrees, especially, are a dime a dozen....History, Sociology etc...

Oh, Gee!!
02-03-2011, 01:29 PM
tuition prices say college isn't for everyone.

baseline bum
02-03-2011, 01:38 PM
What'll the colleges do without a steady stream of unqualified students they can milk for a semester or two before dropping out?

Sportcamper
02-03-2011, 01:44 PM
The world needs ditch diggers too....

http://l.yimg.com/eb/ymv/us/img/hv/photo/contrib_pix/t/e/hds/ted_knight.jpg

coyotes_geek
02-03-2011, 01:51 PM
What'll the colleges do without a steady stream of unqualified students they can milk for a semester or two before dropping out?

Something tells me colleges aren't going to have to worry about there being a shortage of 18-19 year olds looking to live the college lifestyle (minus the studying) for a semester or two before being forced to join the real world.

Winehole23
02-03-2011, 01:58 PM
Who cares what a college educated asshole thinks?Other college educated assholes, maybe. I'll readily agree the value is wildly overrated.

Stringer_Bell
02-03-2011, 02:02 PM
A college education does not indicate the level of intelligence a person has, anyone can do it. There's plenty of intelligent people that can't sit in a classroom or that function better with hands-on training programs.

What pisses me off is when college educated people use their paper degrees to shit on people that didn't go to college. I have a degree, did it in 3 1/2 years while also studying abroad, but never once have I thought that going to college made me better than someone that's worked up the ranks from the ground level (non-degree level). It's just a different route to the same place - taxes, marriage, mortgage, insurance costs, divorce, and death in a brothel.

Winehole23
02-03-2011, 02:32 PM
Haven't read the op, just responding to the title:

...water is wet, and the Pope is CatholicIt flies in the face of equalitarian pieties about opportunity and the fable that the tide never subsides in America, but keeps rising forever.


(Earning more than your American daddy by merely continuing to breathe and holding down a steady job, would seem to be going out of style.)

DarrinS
02-03-2011, 02:35 PM
And bears do, indeed, shit in the woods


Also, home-ownership isn't for everyone either.

ploto
02-03-2011, 04:31 PM
exactly why i'm going for accounting..in my eyes there are useful degrees in this day and age and then there are "worthless" degrees

It depends on why you are going to college. Are you looking for an education or for a job?

Stringer_Bell
02-03-2011, 10:19 PM
Also, home-ownership isn't for everyone either.

Yes, it is. Everyone should be able to have a home they can hold dominion over. Obviously, it's not neccessary that everyone have a home set aside for them given city layouts and space, but the ability should be there if someone works a steady job and wants to stake their claim. It's part of the American dream to have a piece of the Earth you call your own.

Wild Cobra
02-03-2011, 11:49 PM
I'm thinking anyone that knows how to work with their hands in 20 years is going to be in serious demand; trades could be more lucrative for many students than college.

Generic undergrad social science degrees, especially, are a dime a dozen....History, Sociology etc...
The article was pointing out that students do not prepare for life after school. We should all know that college isn't for everyone, but it's because not all trades require it. Apprenticeship used to me one of the best ways to secure a good life.

As for trade jobs...

I disagree, As long as our government penalized employers, we will have a hard time competing with trades moving to other countries. With Mexican trucking coming to the USA, it may become cheaper to send your car to Mexico to have it serviced in the future.

sickdsm
02-04-2011, 07:36 AM
The article was pointing out that students do not prepare for life after school. We should all know that college isn't for everyone, but it's because not all trades require it. Apprenticeship used to me one of the best ways to secure a good life.

As for trade jobs...

I disagree, As long as our government penalized employers, we will have a hard time competing with trades moving to other countries. With Mexican trucking coming to the USA, it may become cheaper to send your car to Mexico to have it serviced in the future.
:lol

boutons_deux
02-04-2011, 03:55 PM
A lot kids who get suckered into for-profit "colleges", go into debt, drop out at twice the rate of the bona fide colleges, and the US taxpayer gets ripped off.

The For-Profit College Rip-Off: Predatory Schools Take 90 Percent Of Revenue From Govt, Leave Students Bankrupt

25 percent of students who attend for profit colleges default within three years.

– Just 11 percent of higher education students in the country attend for-profit schools, yet they account for 26 percent of federal student loans and 44 percent of student loan defaults.

– Many of the schools make up to ninety percent of their revenue from U.S. taxpayers, through the Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, and other federal assistance used by their students. 91.5 percent of Kaplan’s revenue comes from the government, along with 88 percent revenue at the University of Phoenix.

– CEO’s of for-profit colleges receive up to 26 times the amount of pay that the heads of traditional universities do.

The schools also engage in aggressive recruiting and marketing tactics, promising students quick degrees and good jobs, when the result is more often a rip-off, resulting in “crushing debt and bleak job prospects.” A new report from the National Consumer Law Center said that the for-profits’ in-house loan programs are, for all intents and purposes, predatory.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/04/for-profits-data/

baseline bum
02-04-2011, 04:15 PM
A lot kids who get suckered into for-profit "colleges", go into debt, drop out at twice the rate of the bona fide colleges, and the US taxpayer gets ripped off.

The For-Profit College Rip-Off: Predatory Schools Take 90 Percent Of Revenue From Govt, Leave Students Bankrupt

25 percent of students who attend for profit colleges default within three years.

– Just 11 percent of higher education students in the country attend for-profit schools, yet they account for 26 percent of federal student loans and 44 percent of student loan defaults.

– Many of the schools make up to ninety percent of their revenue from U.S. taxpayers, through the Pell Grants, Stafford Loans, and other federal assistance used by their students. 91.5 percent of Kaplan’s revenue comes from the government, along with 88 percent revenue at the University of Phoenix.

– CEO’s of for-profit colleges receive up to 26 times the amount of pay that the heads of traditional universities do.

The schools also engage in aggressive recruiting and marketing tactics, promising students quick degrees and good jobs, when the result is more often a rip-off, resulting in “crushing debt and bleak job prospects.” A new report from the National Consumer Law Center said that the for-profits’ in-house loan programs are, for all intents and purposes, predatory.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/04/for-profits-data/

Pretty sickening stuff. I have read ITT Tech also has their textbooks done in India or Indonesia and that they're of extremely poor quality, but still cost the same as the ridiculously overpriced but useful textbooks you'd use in a real school. Of course you're stuck either buying them or dropping out, since no one will accept their worthless credits in transfer.