All-Star reserves

[ElNono]

We can keep updating this thread when people hear more, or tonight when the official list is out. So far:


Y! Sports has learned that Celtics guard Rajon Rondo has been selected as an Eastern Conference All-Star Reserve.

http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/33227637610516480

[Dex]

Shocking.

[in2deep]

East:
Rondo
Felton
Johnson
Pierce
Garnett
Horford
Boozer

West:
Williams
Ginobili
Parker
Dirk
Gasol
Aldridge
Duncan (or Griffin)

[history2b]

East:
Rondo
Felton
Johnson
Pierce
Garnett
Horford
Boozer

West:
Williams
Ginobili
Parker
Dirk
Gasol
Aldridge
Duncan (or Griffin)

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


4 rolling on the floors for each Spur on your reserve roster.

Westbrook-Paul-Nash >>>> Tony Parker

[Gutter92]

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao


4 rolling on the floors for each Spur on your reserve roster.

Westbrook-Paul-Nash >>>> Tony Parker


So Ginobili and Duncan won't be reserves?

[in2deep]

Westbrook-Paul-Nash >>>> Tony Parker

Paul is a starter ya dumb shit

I concede if it's not parker its westbrook. :toast

[LnGrrrR]

Not sure if Allen will make the roster. Likely either him or Johnson. I think Duncan will make it, but only because the coaches don't want to end his streak.

[history2b]

So Ginobili and Duncan won't be reserves?


None of them are playing at an all-star level. Gino is most deserving because he is your teams best player.

Duncan might get in solely on the fact that the West has no legitimate big at center. That would be a charity vote a la Jamal Magloire a few years back in the East.

I could see one Spur, with a shot at 2.

But 3?

:lmao:lmao:lmao

[in2deep]

None of them are playing at an all-star level. Gino is most deserving because he is your teams best player.

Duncan might get in solely on the fact that the West has no legitimate big at center. That would be a charity vote a la Jamal Magloire a few years back in the East.

I could see one Spur, with a shot at 2.

But 3?

:lmao:lmao:lmao

40-8 homegirl

[Muser]

I'm with Cubby tbh, don't give a shit about the whole weekend.

[history2b]

Not sure if Allen will make the roster. Likely either him or Johnson. I think Duncan will make it, but only because the coaches don't want to end his streak.

I'd go with Allen over Joe myself but probably won't get it.

[history2b]

40-8 homegirl

With no legitimate all-star.

That's good coaching.

[Trainwreck2100]

With no legitimate all-star.

That's good coaching.

and what qualifier to be an all star is there besides being voted in by coaches or fans?

[Darthkiller]

East:
Rondo
Felton
Johnson
Pierce
Garnett
Horford
Boozer

West:
Williams
Ginobili
Parker
Dirk
Gasol
Aldridge
Duncan (or Griffin)

no. felton is not an allstar, dude is starting to lose his starting job as the knicks point guard. every knick fans hate him and wants him off the team. dude has been shooting sub 40% from the field, doesnt pass the ball when our other players have it going. dude sux

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Duncan and Parker won't be reserves, please be serious.
Manu might though

[Phillip]

ginobili in.

duncan and parker should not be in, although duncan is more deserving.

[ElNono]

Gino is a lock, imo.

I can see Stern picking Griffin or Love to replace Yao if the coaches don't select either, and I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[DAF86]

Duncan and Parker won't be reserves, please be serious.

If the coaches don't pick Duncan, there's a good chance Stern will.

[crc21209]

I think Tim gets in along with Manu. And I have a feeling only one of Griffin, Love, and Aldridge is going to get in...and you know it's going to be Griffin....

[DPG21920]

ginobili in.

duncan and parker should not be in, although duncan is more deserving.

Parker is really having every bit as good of a year as Manu tbh.

Duncan has been solid and they do have the best record. But I agree, if you are voting using real logic and not just who you want to see, Tim probably doesn't deserve to go.

[history2b]

and what qualifier to be an all star is there besides being voted in by coaches or fans?

Playing at an all-star level?

[jestersmash]

Top players by PER in the Western Conference -

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/3720/westper.jpg

I was a little bit surprised to see Duncan as high as he is. My "eye test" has told me that Parker has clearly been the 2nd most valuable player on the Spurs team this season so far, but the numbers suggest that we might have been undervaluing Duncan's contributions.

Again, I recognize that PER is by no means the end all be all.

[jestersmash]

Playing at an all-star level?

Circular reasoning.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Playing at an all-star level?

:lol

[history2b]

Parker is really having every bit as good of a year as Manu tbh.

Duncan has been solid and they do have the best record. But I agree, if you are voting using real logic and not just who you want to see, Tim probably doesn't deserve to go.


Likewise for Parker logically speaking when you consider that there are 4 points in the west alone that blow him out of the water as a lead guard.

[DPG21920]

Still, Spurs have 3 of the top 20 PER performers. To say all 3 flat out don't deserve to go is ridiculous in my opinion. They have the best record in the league and are all playing well.

[DPG21920]

Likewise for Parker logically speaking when you consider that there are 4 points in the west alone that blow him out of the water as a lead guard.

No.

[Killakobe81]

If you had to choose 2 of the 3 you would choose Manu and Parker ...

Duncan as a center is not a bad choice the wEst is short on centers anyway ...but if they went by all-star type production ZBo or aldridge would get that spot ...

I almost feel bad for LA he has lost Roy, Oden, Camby and he keeps plugging away ...

[DPG21920]

If you had to choose 2 of the 3 you would choose Manu and Parker ...

Duncan as a center is not a bad choice the wEst is short on centers anyway ...but if they went by all-star type production ZBo or aldridge would get that spot ...

I almost feel bad for LA he has lost Roy, Oden, Camby and he keeps plugging away ...

I agree with this.

[Phillip]

Parker is really having every bit as good of a year as Manu tbh.

Duncan has been solid and they do have the best record. But I agree, if you are voting using real logic and not just who you want to see, Tim probably doesn't deserve to go.

in terms of guards, I think that Williams, Westbrook, Manu, and Nash are more deserving than Parker.

Duncan I dont mind seeing get in at C to replace Yao or something, but Love and Griffin both are more deserving than him.

[history2b]

Circular reasoning.


Absolutely not. He asked what, other than fan and coach voting is a qualifier.

That would be it.

[DPG21920]

Sure it's arguable with those other guards, but I think TP is right at their level. It's not his fault that his team is much more balanced. It is however important to note his team is winning at a ridiculous rate and he is one of the top 2 reasons why.

[Killakobe81]

PER is garbage. Sure Kobe is having a great season in PER I believe better than the last two but are the Lakers or even Kobe playing better?

Ok garbage is overstating ...flawed is probably better ...

But glad Kobe is "up there" only so when I point out the flaws of PER people cant just say it's because it is not "kobe friendly" ...like I give a shit? PER is like BCS ratings ...

[Darrin]

West:
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
Lamar Odom
Kevin Love
Deron Williams
Manu Ginobili
*Pau Gasol

*Replaces Yao Ming

East:
Rajon Rondo
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Carlos Boozer
Raymond Felton
Joe Johnson

[DPG21920]

PER is garbage. Sure Kobe is having a great season in PER I believe better than the last two but are the Lakers or even Kobe playing better?

Ok garbage is overstating ...flawed is probably better ...

But glad Kobe is "up there" only so when I point out the flaws of PER people cant just say it's because it is not "kobe friendly" ...like I give a shit? PER is like BCS ratings ...

No, PER is not really like BCS and it is always pretty Kobe friendly. If you look at things in a bubble, yes, Kobe is playing pretty damn well (statistically) this season.

[ElNono]

PER is garbage. Sure Kobe is having a great season in PER I believe better than the last two but are the Lakers or even Kobe playing better?

Ok garbage is overstating ...flawed is probably better ...

But glad Kobe is "up there" only so when I point out the flaws of PER people cant just say it's because it is not "kobe friendly" ...like I give a shit? PER is like BCS ratings ...

PER is just not a complete look. It intrinsically favors offense over defense, and rewards inefficient shooting...

[Killakobe81]

Paul at# 1 and Love ahead of Dirk are laughable ...

Now dont get me wrong Paul is looking much better the past month ...but even BR had forsaken him earlier this season.

and Im not trying to hate on Paul last 3 games (i have seen) he has changed my mind I thought he was heading down the PG list ...but he has moved back up.

But any stat that says he has been the best (WC) player in the first half of THIS season is flawed ...

[DAF86]

West:
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
Lamar Odom
Kevin Love
Deron Williams
Manu Ginobili
*Pau Gasol

*Replaces Yao Ming

East:
Rajon Rondo
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Carlos Boozer
Raymond Felton
Joe Johnson

No way Odom gets the nod over Duncan, even if it's in LA.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

West:
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
Lamar Odom
Kevin Love
Deron Williams
Manu Ginobili
*Pau Gasol

*Replaces Yao Ming

East:
Rajon Rondo
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Carlos Boozer
Raymond Felton
Joe Johnson

:lol

[Killakobe81]

Oh and Bynum OVER Odom, Melo and Scola THIS season ... LOL

[DPG21920]

:lol Not really. Almost every statistic known to man has Paul playing at a really high level. However, when the standard is ridiculously high and a team struggles, it always skews perception.

Is Paul playing his best ball ever? No. But he is still one of the most elite players in the game.

[jestersmash]

PER is garbage. Sure Kobe is having a great season in PER I believe better than the last two but are the Lakers or even Kobe playing better?

Ok garbage is overstating ...flawed is probably better ...

But glad Kobe is "up there" only so when I point out the flaws of PER people cant just say it's because it is not "kobe friendly" ...like I give a shit? PER is like BCS ratings ...

It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than trying to "eyeball" rankings based on many factors that go into PER in a more refined and calculated way.

PER might be shit, but I'd argue it's better trying to judge players on some hodgepodge eye test that's inevitably going to vary from person to person.

[ElNono]

I also think Westbrook is severely overrated... he's a guy that laid a few turds this season in 'big' games, and most notably, his offensive contribution diminish very rapidly if he can't get to the foul line.

[DAF86]

PER rewards inefficient shooting...

PER rewards efficiency, how can it do that and reward inefficient shooting at the same time?

[Killakobe81]

PER rewards efficiency, how can it do that and reward inefficient shooting at the same time?

I was gonna post the same ...but since I dont value it I left it alone ... LOL

[ElNono]

PER rewards efficiency, how can it do that and reward inefficient shooting at the same time?

To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

[Trainwreck2100]

Playing at an all-star level?

:lmao

[jestersmash]

Paul at# 1 and Love ahead of Dirk are laughable ...

Now dont get me wrong Paul is looking much better the past month ...but even BR had forsaken him earlier this season.

and Im not trying to hate on Paul last 3 games (i have seen) he has changed my mind I thought he was heading down the PG list ...but he has moved back up.

But any stat that says he has been the best (WC) player in the first half of THIS season is flawed ...

So because PER has Paul at #1 and Love at #6 over Dirk (#8), it's absolutely useless to you? I don't know anybody who makes hard distinctions between ranks that are close to each other.

You make it sound like according to PER, Lebron is the worst player in the league and Keith Bogans is the best player in the league. It's not nearly as useless as you make it out to be. If anything, it's remarkable that of the top 10 players in PER, most would put at least 6 or 7 of them in their personal top 10 rankings.

[ElNono]

BTW, I don't necessarily agree with Berri's "Wins Produced" method, but his take on that math is spot on.

[history2b]

West:
Blake Griffin
Dirk Nowitzki
Russell Westbrook
Lamar Odom
Kevin Love
Deron Williams
Manu Ginobili
*Pau Gasol

*Replaces Yao Ming

East:
Rajon Rondo
Chris Bosh
Kevin Garnett
Paul Pierce
Carlos Boozer
Raymond Felton
Joe Johnson


Best list so far.

[DPG21920]

It is a good statistic. It has it's flaws and should only be used to gain some perspective.

[jestersmash]

To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

Interesting. That's a clear flaw with PER and I'd imagine it'll be fixed 5 years down the road, at which point PER still won't be perfect (it never will) but it will at least bring some semblance of objectivity to the matter of player value.

[DPG21920]

Best list so far.

:lmao Of course you would think that.

[Killakobe81]

To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

I get what you are saying but of course Dave Berri (and Wayne winston) is going to say his system (that is why I compared to BCS) is better and poke holes at Holly's ...

Most useful stat I have seen is adjusted plus/minus FOR lineup combinations. I think i saw Wayne use it first. Not syaing he invented, but saw an article and thought as a coach that would be the most useful.

Because in reality simple plus/minus ina vacum doesnt tell you shit. Neal/Brown could come in when Duncan or Pau are rolling vs. second string big men and have better plus/minus than manu or Kobe yet they did the heavy work against defensive stoppers.

Looking at lineup combinations can tell you which "group" of lineups have the most impact on winning. who cares who did the heavy lifting as long as the group functioned well?

Most of this other stuff I would only use if i was a front-office guy arguing salary ... "well yes you averaged 20 butyour PER ranked (blank)" out of PG's "

[Killakobe81]

It is a good statistic. It has it's flaws and should only be used to gain some perspective.

Now this I would agree with. YEs, I spoke in broad strokes but my issue more is ina PG debate knockiing down Derek rose because in PER he is behind not only Paul and williams but Westbrook (IIRC) ...

I just think as a final criteria it is foolish. I wont say it's completely useless ..like i said If i was GM I would use it more than as coach which I pointed to in my last post. When I coach i use my "eyes" first stats second.

And Like I said adjusted plus/minus for position players is teh the advanced statistic I find most useful.

[Killakobe81]

History2b may be a bit misguided ...but in a barbershop or on the playground or gym do you guys reallly use PER as a foundation for your who is better arguments?

Not saying it is wrong it does show a higher level of digging in to a question ...but I think that would be hilarious. I know some great barbershops and some great pickup games in Downtown L.A. the Valley, or even downtown San Antonio where I would LOVe to hear that debate ...

[rickross]

my nigga bosh 4 mvp.

[jestersmash]

Now this I would agree with. YEs, I spoke in broad strokes but my issue more is ina PG debate knockiing down Derek rose because in PER he is behind not only Paul and williams but Westbrook (IIRC) ...

I just think as a final criteria it is foolish. I wont say it's completely useless ..like i said If i was GM I would use it more than as coach which I pointed to in my last post. When I coach i use my "eyes" first stats second.

And Like I said adjusted plus/minus for position players is teh the advanced statistic I find most useful.

Rose is 4th, Westbrook is 2nd. If anything, it's amazing that a single formula managed to place those two players within 2 ranks.

It's not as though some no-name scrub who shoots 2-3, 3-5, 2-2, 0-1 from the field in 7 minutes of play and averages 10 minutes per game is ranked comparably to point guards we "eyeball" as elite.

[DPG21920]

Well that is where you get into the "average fan" vs here. Most of us, at least in "real life", don't talk to other people or argue like this. Even with other fans.

For example, if I met you at a bar Killa, during a game for LA/SA, I wouldn't start yelling at you and going into crazy long debates like I do here. I would just say the basic stuff and watch the game.

[LnGrrrR]

To quote Dave Berri, the author of The Wages of Wins:

"Hollinger argues that each two point field goal made is worth about 1.65 points. A three point field goal made is worth 2.65 points. A missed field goal, though, costs a team 0.72 points. Given these values, with a bit of math we can show that a player will break even on his two point field goal attempts if he hits on 30.4% of these shots. On three pointers the break-even point is 21.4%. If a player exceeds these thresholds, and virtually every NBA player does so with respect to two-point shots, the more he shoots the higher his value in PERs. So a player can be an inefficient scorer and simply inflate his value by taking a large number of shots."

Good post.

[rickross]

Rose is 4th, Westbrook is 2nd. If anything, it's amazing that a single formula managed to place those two players within 2 ranks.

It's not as though some no-name scrub who shoots 2-3, 3-5, 2-2, 0-1 from the field in 7 minutes of play and averages 10 minutes per game is ranked comparably to point guards we "eyeball" as elite.

im sorry 2 say it son but a pg without a J is fools gold. Dem triggas b droppin 20-5-5s but dem triggas is fragile when da shyt plays. And lmao @roses defense, dat nigga overrated as fuck.

[DAF86]

I like PER 'cause it usually matches my "eye" perception, often I see a player that is hyped by everyone and think "meh, he isn't that good", I go to see the PER ranking and realize that his PER number isn't that good, or the other way around: I think very highly of a player that nobody talks about and when I go look his PER numbers they are really good.

[jestersmash]

Top 5 PGs by PER:

CP3
Westbrook
Nash
Rose
Dwill

How bad is that, really? The only glaring omission is perhaps Rondo (#8). Would I rank Rondo as the 8th best point guard in the league? No. I think that's underrating him, but at the same time I appreciate the fact that PER at least validated his place in the discussion of top 5 point guards.

If Rondo was ranked 50th in the league among PGs in PER, then that should cause us to reconsider whether he's as good as we think he is.

That's how I use PER. I don't consider it to be an exact ranking. I use it as a compass.

[jestersmash]

im sorry 2 say it son but a pg without a J is fools gold. Dem triggas b droppin 20-5-5s but dem triggas is fragile when da shyt plays. And lmao @roses defense, dat nigga overrated as fuck.

Rose is really hyped up among Chicago fans. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's overrated, but he certainly gets quite a bit of praise among the Chicago crowd.

From today's Hollinger chat -

Blake (Chicago)
Are you ready to call Rose the best PG in the game yet?

John Hollinger
Did Chris Paul retire?



Phil (Chicago )
No, Chris Paul didn't retire but his numbers are down across the board compared to 2 years ago. Live in the present, John.

John Hollinger
Which numbers? Turnovers? Missed shots? Paul is second in the NBA in PER ... he's become the master of efficiency.



Mike (Chicago)
I know you love PER, but it's YOUR made up stat. Why should fans trust it when clearly our eyes can tell us that D Rose is playing way better than Paul and when PER doesn't account for how a player has to play when teammates are hurt?

John Hollinger
I trust you reached this eye test after watching all the Hornets' games too?




:lol "Trollinger" at his finest. Loved the last exchange, particularly.

[Killakobe81]

Rose is 4th, Westbrook is 2nd. If anything, it's amazing that a single formula managed to place those two players within 2 ranks.

It's not as though some no-name scrub who shoots 2-3, 3-5, 2-2, 0-1 from the field in 7 minutes of play and averages 10 minutes per game is ranked comparably to point guards we "eyeball" as elite.

You like it I get that Jeter. I don't that is my perogative as well. Using my eyeballs (look at my ranking PG thread)

Overall:
1. Dwill
2. Paul I'm leaning towards flipping him back to #1
3. Rose
4. Rondo
5. close between Parker, Westbrook, Nash etc.

I think Rose is the best star or "player" but looking at the criteria it is hard for me to NOT choose Dwill and Cp3 as my top 2 PG's

Your right my "eyeball" subjective analysis is not far off of hollinger's so why do I need another man, telling me who is better? It his opinions based on criteria HE HOLDS sacred. Wayne has his, so does Berri. I trust mine. Do ignore them? No. I read True Hoop daily and MOST of the guys on abbot's network are advanced saber-metrics disciples.

I just think using PER as the final decidor is just like me using the ring argument ...it's a criteria or system for judging players basedon what YOU value most ...neither is wrong. I just dont care for PER much

[DPG21920]

Well, I just realized that as soon as this SA/LA game tips off, all of this nice conversation is over.

[jestersmash]

Speaking of which, just out of curiosity, how important is tonight's game for LA fans? Are you all 100% indifferent about the outcome? Will you give the outcome slightly more weight than usual given that it's February?

[Killakobe81]

Well that is where you get into the "average fan" vs here. Most of us, at least in "real life", don't talk to other people or argue like this. Even with other fans.

For example, if I met you at a bar Killa, during a game for LA/SA, I wouldn't start yelling at you and going into crazy long debates like I do here. I would just say the basic stuff and watch the game.

Fair enough same, here. But in pickup-ball (between games) or at Barbershops those are the old school havens for ball debate and I just was curious if anyone ever dropped the PER card ...

"Well according to Hollinger's metric that calculates True shooting% Rebound percentage, assist rate, etc. Not only is rose not an MVP, but he is only the 4th best PG in the NBA" ... looks great on Hollinper's PER DIEM ...just saying in a debate how would THAT work?

Also not sure if any of you guys have done spoken word, or were involved in competitive debates, or mock trials (yes, I was involved i played ball and was a "nerd" too) We did use stats to make points ... but the way to sway an audience/jury is always through emotions ...relating them to your case. stats and facts are just used to support the argument. And I can always fins some stat to support "pro/con".
That is why in debates in sports people point to playoff performances and Finals, Super bowls etc. Because those all resonate ...

Kobe lost what little chance he had at approaching MJ's legacy with the 6-24 in Game 7, even in a win. Doesnt matter what his PER was BEFORE that. 6-24 stains that performance eternally.

If someone clowns him do I show his PER for games 1-6? I could, but what good does it do? Hollinger (on his chat today) argued Kobe's PER alone was enough for Kobe to win Finals MVP (over Pau) and i agree he deserved the win.

But even so his legacy took a hit and it was the eyeball test and the "standard stats" that bore that out. PER was not necessary ... good for me i dont care about his legacy!!! We got 16 that is ALL that matters!!! But find it funny people still care about that ...

[Killakobe81]

Speaking of which, just out of curiosity, how important is tonight's game for LA fans? Are you all 100% indifferent about the outcome? Will you give the outcome slightly more weight than usual given that it's February?

For me it means something. If you lose the 3 biggest games of your season at home that is a red flag. If they lose doesnt mean that the season is over and if they win it does not solve all of the problems. In fact, if we win I wouldnt be surprised if we dont lose our next game in Indy or Philly or some other mediocre team.

But I have advocated a minor trade (or pickup) for the Lakers win or lose ...
Need some speed and defense

[Kyle Orton]

I also think Westbrook is severely overrated... he's a guy that laid a few turds this season in 'big' games, and most notably, his offensive contribution diminish very rapidly if he can't get to the foul line.

He's a much better defender than Parker and is averaging more assists than Parker ever has (even counting his fluke 09 season).

lol Parkaluvas calling other PGs overrated

[jestersmash]

I can understand why people don't embrace PER as the ultimate objective rating.

I don't understand why people haven't moved on to using true shooting percentage over field goal percentage when assessing shooting efficiency among players. That makes no sense to me.

Player A shoots only 2 point field goals, takes 20 shots per game, and makes 50% of his shots. He'll go 10-20 in a game and score 20 points on 20 possessions.

Player B shoots only 3 point field goals, takes 20 shots per game, and makes 40% of his shots. He'll go 8-20 in a game and score 24 points on 20 possessions.

This is an extreme hypothetical, of course, merely to demonstrate a point. Citing field goal percentage totally ignores these important nuances. Player B is far and away more efficient shooting-wise than Player A, but in casual conversation the casual fan would almost certainly look at "40%" versus "50%" and deem player A to be more efficient.

You have to control for volume differences between 2 point shots and 3 point shots attempted (and made), and for free throw shooting.

All of this is nicely encompassed into true shooting percentage. I don't understand why it hasn't caught on yet. TS% is nothing like PER.

PER is an arbitrary formula. TS% is a mathematical fact. 24 points on 20 possessions versus 20 points on 20 possessions.

[Killakobe81]

Rose is really hyped up among Chicago fans. I don't know if I'd go as far as to say he's overrated, but he certainly gets quite a bit of praise among the Chicago crowd.

From today's Hollinger chat -

Blake (Chicago)
Are you ready to call Rose the best PG in the game yet?

John Hollinger
Did Chris Paul retire?



Phil (Chicago )
No, Chris Paul didn't retire but his numbers are down across the board compared to 2 years ago. Live in the present, John.

John Hollinger
Which numbers? Turnovers? Missed shots? Paul is second in the NBA in PER ... he's become the master of efficiency.



Mike (Chicago)
I know you love PER, but it's YOUR made up stat. Why should fans trust it when clearly our eyes can tell us that D Rose is playing way better than Paul and when PER doesn't account for how a player has to play when teammates are hurt?

John Hollinger
I trust you reached this eye test after watching all the Hornets' games too?




:lol "Trollinger" at his finest. Loved the last exchange, particularly.

I watched the both last night...They both played on NBA TV. Paul was very good I think NO had only 3 TO's in the first half ...and were in a close game with OKC (With Westbrook the #4 PG) and Paul was was efficient.
But Rose was dominant. He was teh best player on teh floor even though he was putscored by Blake in the first half ...Tough to watch that doubleheader and not feel Rose was teh better player. However Paul faced Westbrook and Rose had davis so that should be factored in ...

[DPG21920]

He's a much better defender than Parker and is averaging more assists than Parker ever has (even counting his fluke 09 season).

lol Parkaluvas calling other PGs overrated

No, he is not a much better defender than Parker. For a PG that is really touted as a good defender, Westbrook disappoints on that end.

Also, for reasons unknown to me, TP has this stigma of being a bad defender when that couldn't be further from the truth.

[Killakobe81]

No, he is not a much better defender than Parker. For a PG that is really touted as a good defender, Westbrook disappoints on that end.

Also, for reasons unknown to me, TP has this stigma of being a bad defender when that couldn't be further from the truth.

Im not saying Rondo isnt a better (defender) but I also think he is overrated defensively ...like westbrook. they both give you great hustle, rebounds and can stay in front of their men ok ...but both gamble too much for my taste.

Most of the top PG's suck on defense if you ask me. Only reason I like Rose, Wesbrook Kidd and Dwill (defensively) if they switch on a SG they cant be bullied in the post. But I think Dwill and kidd do that best of the top PG's ...

[jestersmash]

Im not saying Rondo isnt a better (defender) but I also think he is overrated defensively ...like westbrook. they both give you great hustle, rebounds and can stay in front of their men ok ...but both gamble too much for my taste.

Most of the top PG's suck on defense if you ask me. Only reason I like Rose, Wesbrook Kidd and Dwill (defensively) if they switch on a SG they cant be bullied in the post. But I think Dwill and kidd do that best of the top PG's ...

DWill, especially, is so well built in this regard. He also will not hesitate to overpower smaller point guards in the post when he's on offense, creating yet another situation where he often demands a double team.

[eric365]

@johnhollinger Pau Gasol, Rajon Rondo and Kevin Garnett have All-Star pages up on NBA.com. I tried every suspect and only those three names worked. 6 minutes ago

[jestersmash]

http://www.nba.com/allstar2011/players/rajon_rondo.html
http://www.nba.com/allstar2011/players/kevin_garnett.html
http://www.nba.com/allstar2011/players/pau_gasol.html

[Killakobe81]

@johnhollinger Pau Gasol, Rajon Rondo and Kevin Garnett have All-Star pages up on NBA.com. I tried every suspect and only those three names worked. 6 minutes ago

Nice find.

Question, who were the last great really good Defensive PG's? Out of those guys how many were top 5 PG's?
The last two pretty damn good defensive PG's I could think of are: GP and Jkidd (young version).

Stockton to me was overrated defensively (underrated as a clutch player though ...guy used to piss me off!!!).

Most of the really good PG defenders (Greg Anthony, Nate McMillan) were just OK offensively ...

[Mugen]

Nice find.

Question, who were the last great really good Defensive PG's? Out of those guys how many were top 5 PG's?
The last two pretty damn good defensive PG's I could think of are: GP and Jkidd (young version).

Stockton to me was overrated defensively (underrated as a clutch player though ...guy used to piss me off!!!).

Most of the really good PG defenders (Greg Anthony, Nate McMillan) were just OK offensively ...

best defender at the PG spot was lindsey hunter. limited offensively but I still remember him hitting some big shots.

[Killakobe81]

best defender at the PG spot was lindsey hunter. limited offensively but I still remember him hitting some big shots.

thought of him too after I posted ...

[LnGrrrR]

Also not sure if any of you guys have done spoken word, or were involved in competitive debates, or mock trials...

Did both actually. Nerds unite!

There used to be an awesome poetry slam night at Sam's Burger Joint in San Antonio on Tuesday nights.

[ElNono]

I get what you are saying but of course Dave Berri (and Wayne winston) is going to say his system (that is why I compared to BCS) is better and poke holes at Holly's ...

Most useful stat I have seen is adjusted plus/minus FOR lineup combinations. I think i saw Wayne use it first. Not syaing he invented, but saw an article and thought as a coach that would be the most useful.

Because in reality simple plus/minus ina vacum doesnt tell you shit. Neal/Brown could come in when Duncan or Pau are rolling vs. second string big men and have better plus/minus than manu or Kobe yet they did the heavy work against defensive stoppers.

Looking at lineup combinations can tell you which "group" of lineups have the most impact on winning. who cares who did the heavy lifting as long as the group functioned well?

Most of this other stuff I would only use if i was a front-office guy arguing salary ... "well yes you averaged 20 butyour PER ranked (blank)" out of PG's "

I think there's everything out there. I could see how a guy like Cuban, with his background would be much more obsessed with numbers than, say, a guy like Pop.

That said, I think at this point no pro team really overlooks statistical analysis anymore. Some will give it more weight than others, and nobody claims it's the magic formula, but it certainly enrichs the decision process.

[ElNono]

He's a much better defender than Parker and is averaging more assists than Parker ever has (even counting his fluke 09 season).

lol Parkaluvas calling other PGs overrated

I don't even think Tony is a top 5 PG at the moment...
You're barking at the wrong tree...

[PGDynasty24]

Y! Sources: Western Conference All-Star reserves: T. Duncan, P. Gasol, R. Westbrook, B. Griffin, M. Ginobili, D. Nowitzki, and D. Williams.

[PGDynasty24]

Y! Sports has obtained list of All-Star reserves. Eastern Con: R. Allen, P. Pierce, R. Rondo, K. Garnett, C. Bosh, A. Horford, J. Johnson,

[ChrisRichards]

Who's replacing Yao?

[ElNono]

nice...

[Amarelooms]

Who's replacing Yao?

Tyson Chandler

:elephant

[badfish22]

Love should be in over Duncan

[ChrisRichards]

Tyson Chandler

:elephant
Should be Love. If Stern wants to honor LA players then it may be Odom.


Word has it its going to be Steve Nash though.

[slick'81]

where the fck is kevin love

[tlongII]

LaMarcus should be on the team instead of Duncan. That's a TRAVESHAMOCKERY!

[tlongII]

LaMarcus has been WAY BETTER than Love also!

[ElNono]

I figured it would end up being one of Love or Griffin. I just thought whoever they selected would take TD's spot.

[ElNono]

So now word word who Stein picked?

[DPG21920]

Love should have gotten in over Dirk and Duncan. Duncan out rebounds, assists, steals and blocks Dirk in far less minutes and is on the best team in the league record wise and anchors the defense. So Love should have beat them both.

[usdane]

Tim Duncan should do the right thing and withdraw from the All Star team. He has no business being there.

[slick'81]

aldridge really hadnt started playing well till the last few weeks love is an allstar no fckn doubt

[ElNono]

Phoenix's Steve Nash is a strong favorite to replace the injured Yao Ming on the Western Conference roster, sources told Y! Sports

[PGDynasty24]

I don't think Kevin Love should get it. His team has 3 more wins than Cavs,great all star players make their teams better. I would have to go with Aldridge

[ElNono]

Tim Duncan should do the right thing and withdraw from the All Star team. He has no business being there.

Coaches say otherwise...

[ElNono]

LaMarcus has been WAY BETTER than Love also!

He could still make it...

[badfish22]

LaMarcus should be on the team instead of Duncan. That's a TRAVESHAMOCKERY!

yeah maybe this too. Duncan kind of rode his name in.

[DPG21920]

I agree, Aldridge should have gotten in before Love and over Tim and Dirk for the reasons I listed above. Scoring more points is not the only thing in the league. Tim does a lot of stuff better than Dirk in less minutes and his team is first in the league.

Hell, Boston has 4 all stars this year with a worse record.

[slick'81]

however duncan should not be in ahead of love or aldridge this season

[ohmwrecker]

Kevin Love is a essentially a stat whore on a bad team. Those type of players are not usually rewarded with All-Star selections. It doesn't mean that much tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

Called the Duncan placement.

[DPG21920]

I am not trolling when I say this: Why is it universal that Dirk is a shoe in and Tim is not?

Tim is obviously still one of the best defensive players in the league. He has played a large role (maybe not offensively) in getting the Spurs to the Number One record in the league.

He out does Dirk in every major category except for points in less minutes per game and if Tim played the 5 extra minutes per game that Dirk had, that gap would be negligible.

So why is it that Dirk is a "no-brainer" and Kevin Love deserves to be in over Tim hands down?

[ohmwrecker]

Massive, spontaneous retardation?

[BRHornet45]

Dirk is in because he can actually score the basketball. Duncan is struggling to put up 13 points a game.

[DPG21920]

Also, wait, Chris Paul is not an all-star?

[DPG21920]

Dirk is in because he can actually score the basketball. Duncan is struggling to put up 13 points a game.

So scoring is weighted more than winning, defense, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks combined?

[BRHornet45]

duncan has absolutely no business being in the all star game this season. Dirk, Love, and Griffin are all twice the player Duncan is now days.

[badfish22]

I am not trolling when I say this: Why is it universal that Dirk is a shoe in and Tim is not?

Tim is obviously still one of the best defensive players in the league. He has played a large role (maybe not offensively) in getting the Spurs to the Number One record in the league.

He out does Dirk in every major category except for points in less minutes per game and if Tim played the 5 extra minutes per game that Dirk had, that gap would be negligible.

So why is it that Dirk is a "no-brainer" and Kevin Love deserves to be in over Tim hands down?

:lol spurhomers

[DPG21920]

:lol spurhomers

Good argument :tu

[DPG21920]

So scoring is weighted more than winning, defense, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks combined?


duncan has absolutely no business being in the all star game this season. Dirk, Love, and Griffin are all twice the player Duncan is now days.

[ohmwrecker]

duncan has absolutely no business being in the all star game this season. Dirk, Love, and Griffin are all twice the player Duncan is now days.

Something is going wrong in your distillation process. Not enough filtration perhaps?

[tlongII]

duncan has absolutely no business being in the all star game this season. Dirk, Love, and Griffin are all twice the player Duncan is now days.

And Aldridge is better than Dirk, Love, or Griffin.

[Mugen]

Also, wait, Chris Paul is not an all-star?

hes a starter.

[DPG21920]

Oh, ok. I was confused about Paul for some reason. I was about to say....

[jeebus]

The butthurt is strong in this thread

[BRHornet45]

Sons stop being homers. Anyone who thinks Duncan deserve to be an all star this season is just downright fucking stupid. The all star selections are based on individual stats and shouldn't be based on pitty just because a player has been around for a long time. the spurs really don't have any legit all stars this season whenever you look at the stats, but Manu will get in because of their record.

[ElNono]

Dirk is in because he can actually score the basketball. Duncan is struggling to put up 13 points a game.

He plays less minutes though...

[ohmwrecker]

Sons stop being homers. Anyone who thinks Duncan deserve to be an all star this season is just downright fucking stupid. The all star selections are based on individual stats and shouldn't be based on pitty just because a player has been around for a long time. the spurs really don't have any legit all stars this season whenever you look at the stats, but Manu will get in because of their record.

The real "pitty" is what a shitty poster you are.

[DPG21920]

Sons stop being homers. Anyone who thinks Duncan deserve to be an all star this season is just downright fucking stupid. The all star selections are based on individual stats and shouldn't be based on pitty just because a player has been around for a long time. the spurs really don't have any legit all stars this season whenever you look at the stats, but Manu will get in because of their record.


So scoring is weighted more than winning, defense, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks combined?

So please answer my post(s) (multiple) above. I showed Dirk's stats compared to Duncan's and you failed to address them because you seem so upset over this :lol

[redzero]

He plays fewer minutes though...

:tu

[ElNono]

:tu

:tu

[DPG21920]

I just asked a very simple, clear and concise question and I don't know why BR won't address it? It's like his is furious or something and he can't even see it cause he is so angry.

[ElNono]

Son, tell the truth... you're just mad that Capt West didn't make the cut... :lol

[DPG21920]

:tu

Do you think that points should be weighted heavier than winning, defense, rebounding, steals, assists and blocks combined? Regardless of minutes?

[ohmwrecker]

:crySons where my boy West at?:cry

[redzero]

Do you think that points should be weighted heavier than winning, defense, rebounding, steals, assists and blocks combined? Regardless of minutes?

Only points? No. If that was the case, Kevin Martin would definitely be an all star.

[DPG21920]

Only points? No. If that was the case, Kevin Martin would definitely be an all star.

So then what is the case for Dirk being a shoe in and Duncan not deserving it if Duncan beats Dirk in every single category I mentioned above?

[ohmwrecker]

Red, your sig is bitchin'.

[BRHornet45]

The "plays less minutes" excuse is laughable and shows just how fragile, weak, and fallen off Duncan truly is. The truth is that if he actually played legit minutes his numbers would be down even more because of how out of shape and weak he has become over the last few years. Why should other, youbger players be punished for playing more minutes and working twice as hard as Duncan? Even if Duncan played the same amount of minutes there is still noway in hell he would be able to put up Griffin or Love's numbers...or Dirks

[endrity]

So then what is the case for Dirk being a shoe in and Duncan not deserving it if Duncan beats Dirk in every single category I mentioned above?

cause scoring over 23 with 52% FG > all those other statistics

and ofcourse we are not even mentioning the advanced statistics which truly dominate decision making today, like PER, efficiency, Win Shares, +/-, TS%, usage rate and such. Cause if we were to, we would be comparing players from two different planets.

[ohmwrecker]

Sons go sleep it off somewhere.

[ElNono]

The "plays less minutes" excuse is laughable and shows just how fragile, weak, and fallen off Duncan truly is. The truth is that if he actually played legit minutes his numbers would be down even more because of how out of shape and weak he has become over the last few years. Why should other, youbger players be punished for playing more minutes and working twice as hard as Duncan? Even if Duncan played the same amount of minutes there is still noway in hell he would be able to put up Griffin or Love's numbers...or Dirks

Calm down son, why you mad?

It's the coaches that made the selections, not us. You should ask Monty next time you see him why he voted for him... :lol

[DPG21920]

The "plays less minutes" excuse is laughable and shows just how fragile, weak, and fallen off Duncan truly is. The truth is that if he actually played legit minutes his numbers would be down even more because of how out of shape and weak he has become over the last few years. Why should other, youbger players be punished for playing more minutes and working twice as hard as Duncan? Even if Duncan played the same amount of minutes there is still noway in hell he would be able to put up Griffin or Love's numbers...or Dirks

Ok, but even in less minutes, Duncan beats Dirk in Rebounding, Assists, Steals, Blocks and Defense and his team has the number one record in the league (that is playing with a bunch of guys whom you say don't even deserve to be all-stars).

That is not taking into consideration minutes. That argument is out the window. So what now?

Can you make an argument that doesn't make you look incredibly upset :lol?

[ohmwrecker]

cause scoring over 23 with 52% FG > all those other statistics

and ofcourse we are not even mentioning the advanced statistics which truly dominate decision making today, like PER, efficiency, Win Shares, +/-, TS%, usage rate and such. Cause if we were to, we would be comparing players from two different planets.

Dumb. Advanced stats actually support the pro-Duncan argument.

[DPG21920]

cause scoring over 23 with 52% FG > all those other statistics

and ofcourse we are not even mentioning the advanced statistics which truly dominate decision making today, like PER, efficiency, Win Shares, +/-, TS%, usage rate and such. Cause if we were to, we would be comparing players from two different planets.

Not really. Tim is top 20 in PER. Has Dirk beat in defensive win shares amongst other metrics. Tim is leading the league in point differential defensively when he is on the court vs off it.

Of course Dirk is more efficient and a better scorer, but that's it. Your argument doesn't hold water. It really boils down to people thinking points is greater than the sum of winning, defense, rebounding, assists, steals and blocks combined.

[BRHornet45]

Duncan got in out of pitty. Plain and simple. Shit like this tarnishes the game because there are dozens of players more deserving of that spot.

[DPG21920]

Duncan got in out of pitty. Plain and simple. Shit like this tarnishes the game because there are dozens of players more deserving of that spot.

Ok, it's official. BR ignoring blatant FACTS and just posting out of sheer anger. I'll let you be man. I don't want you going all crazy or anything. It's just a stupid All-Star game.

[ohmwrecker]

lol dozens

[silverblk mystix]

Duncan got in out of pitty. Plain and simple. Shit like this tarnishes the game because there are dozens of players more deserving of that spot.

BR...weren't you begging for the whorenets to get rid of west just a couple of months ago?

Weren't you constantly raggin' on him and throwing him under the bus?

[ohmwrecker]

BR...weren't you begging for the whorenets to get rid of west just a couple of months ago?

Weren't you constantly raggin' on him and throwing him under the bus?

Do you actually expect that drunken jackass to remember back that far?

[Flight3107]

Hopefully this is his one and only pity vote, Duncan should be embarrassed to show his face with those All-Stars.

[Killakobe81]

Dont blame the coaches, blame the chinese. If fans voted in Pao, or Duncan at center coaches wouldnt of had to select Tim ...as for is he deserving? They do deserve 2 all-stars if Celts deserve 4 ... I would argue Tony Parker but 2 spurs seems legit.

[DPG21920]

Hopefully this is his one and only pity vote, Duncan should be embarrassed to show his face with those All-Stars.

Great argument :tu

[badfish22]

Good argument :tu

When I see someone being a big homer I have learned not to argue with them. Its never ends good.

[HarlemHeat37]

I wouldn't have put Tim in the game, but to act like it's an outrage is a stretch..he's by far the best defensive player and rebounder on the best team in the NBA..does that outweigh Kevin Love's numbers on a horrible team?(also, one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA)..it's debatable..

I would have put Aldridge in the game..

[badfish22]

I wouldn't have put Tim in the game, but to act like it's an outrage is a stretch..he's by far the best defensive player and rebounder on the best team in the NBA..does that outweigh Kevin Love's numbers on a horrible team?(also, one of the worst defensive bigs in the NBA)..it's debatable..

I would have put Aldridge in the game..

agreed

[DPG21920]

When I see someone being a big homer I have learned not to argue with them. Its never ends good.

Fantastic argument :tu

[DPG21920]

agreed

Great takes continued :tu

[WeNeedLength]

Got damn, so many Duncan haters in this thread. WTF is up with you trolls/homers/dipshits/etc...etc..? Duncan is still good and obviously other people agree with this. Get it through your fucking skull. In the mean time...
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/71/tumblr_lex9k17afK1qzmowao1_500.gif

[badfish22]

Fantastic argument :tu

not making one. Don't argue against homers remember?

[Ashy Larry]

however duncan should not be in ahead of love or aldridge this season


Hell, Duncan shouldn't be above Lamar Odom .....

[HarlemHeat37]

If you replaced Duncan with any of these players, the Spurs would be significantly worse..that's why I don't understand the outrage..

If you put Duncan on the Blazers instead of Aldridge, would they be better?..probably not..same with Love..however, the #1 team in the NBA is anchored by Duncan on D, which wouldn't be replaced by any of his All-Star competition, and he's the best passer of the bunch, which is another underrated key to the Spurs' offense..

The Spurs are #3 in the NBA from an offensive standpoint, they don't need any more offensive firepower..

[Killakobe81]

Hell, Duncan shouldn't be above Lamar Odom .....

I agree he shouldn't but I agree with chuck you could say the same about Pau ...

Pau's best has been better than Lamar's but Odom has brought it almost every night. No black swan speech necessary ...

[badfish22]

If you replaced Duncan with any of these players, the Spurs would be significantly worse..that's why I don't understand the outrage..

If you put Duncan on the Blazers instead of Aldridge, would they be better?..probably not..same with Love..however, the #1 team in the NBA is anchored by Duncan on D, which wouldn't be replaced by any of his All-Star competition, and he's the best passer of the bunch, which is another underrated key to the Spurs' offense..

The Spurs are #3 in the NBA from an offensive standpoint, they don't need any more offensive firepower..

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think his D has been that great this year. Spurs seem to be getting by on their offense.

[DPG21920]

not making one. Don't argue against homers remember?

No. You can't. You are ok about talking typical sports talk but as soon as the conversation turns serious and someone puts out an argument that goes beyond "lol Spurs", you fold and scoff.

I am clearly one of the least homer people on the site. I always make argument for what I believe is true, even if it comes out unfavorably for my team.

I presented a factual argument and asked a simple question which you failed to answer because you can't.

It isn't homer when you present a reasonable case and use statistics to back up your claims.

Something you know nothing about.

[DPG21920]

Hell, Duncan shouldn't be above Lamar Odom .....

This is very retarded. Very.

[badfish22]

No. You can't. You are ok about talking typical sports talk but as soon as the conversation turns serious and someone puts out an argument that goes beyond "lol Spurs", you fold and scoff.

I am clearly one of the least homer people on the site. I always make argument for what I believe is true, even if it comes out unfavorably for my team.

I presented a factual argument and asked a simple question which you failed to answer because you can't.

It isn't homer when you present a reasonable case and use statistics to back up your claims.

Something you know nothing about.

lol up your own ass
lol homer
lol mavs insider

[badfish22]

This is very retarded. Very.

like good argument bro way not to just scoff stupid things :tu

[DPG21920]

I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think his D has been that great this year. Spurs seem to be getting by on their offense.

So you don't agree that Duncan does everything better than Dirk besides score? You don't agree that Duncan's team has the number one record in the league, that he out rebounds, assists, steals and blocks Dirk and that the only thing Dirk does better is score?

You don't think that Tim's defense has been that good even though they are ranked top 7 in the league defensively and Tim leads the league in +/- defensively when he is on the court vs off of it?

Great arguments, and you are clearly not a homer :tu

[DPG21920]

No. You can't. You are ok about talking typical sports talk but as soon as the conversation turns serious and someone puts out an argument that goes beyond "lol Spurs", you fold and scoff.

I am clearly one of the least homer people on the site. I always make argument for what I believe is true, even if it comes out unfavorably for my team.

I presented a factual argument and asked a simple question which you failed to answer because you can't.

It isn't homer when you present a reasonable case and use statistics to back up your claims.

Something you know nothing about.


lol up your own ass
lol homer
lol mavs insider

An we are back to your comfort zone :lol

also, link to me being an insider or saying I was one?

[badfish22]

Stop being a homer and then I might argue with you. I was talking to trainwreck.

[DPG21920]

like good argument bro way not to just scoff stupid things :tu

I made my arguments, b*tch. Where are yours?

[DPG21920]

Stop being a homer and then I might argue with you. I was talking to trainwreck.

Link to me being a homer, b*tch?

[badfish22]

lol getting mad

And you're being a homer by arguing Duncan>Dirk when even some greys think otherwise.

[DPG21920]

lol getting mad

And you're being a homer by arguing Duncan>Dirk when even some greys think otherwise.

You are being a DB.COMER because you have no ground to stand on and all you know how to do is "lol..."

Where did I argue Duncan>Dirk? Or did I say can someone please explain to me why Duncan on the All-Star team is some egregious thing, but Dirk is not when Duncan out performs Dirk in every area of the game (in less minutes) except for scoring?

To which you respond: "Uhhhhhhhh, I have no stats to back up my claim, but but but I don't think Tim has defended that well", to which I reply with statistical evidence that proves otherwise.

You are the one that literally knows shit about basketball. But hey, this forum welcomes DB.COMERS that don't bring shit to the table like yourself all the time.

[badfish22]

Dirk is just >>> Duncan. Its really that simple. Manu is >> Duncan.


We could also say "OHH!! CHANDLER IS BETTER THAN DIRK BECUASE HE OUTPERFORMS HIM IN EVERY THING BUT THE SCORING!! IS SCORING ALL THAT MATTERS!???"

That is another stupid take I wouldn't respond too.

[Spur_Fanatic]

To be honest, I would have preferred Aldridge over TD, and TD getting in with Stern's vote. It would have been fairer and easier to defend ("Spurs should have at least 2 All Stars due to their record") when considered against the other stars left out there.

[sefant77]

So free bricking for Durant and Anthony because Duncan and Dirk wont play more than 5min...and i think Gasol wont play much either

[DPG21920]

Dirk is just >>> Duncan. Its really that simple. Manu is >> Duncan.


We could also say "OHH!! CHANDLER IS BETTER THAN DIRK BECUASE HE OUTPERFORMS HIM IN EVERY THING BUT THE SCORING!! IS SCORING ALL THAT MATTERS!???"

That is another stupid take I wouldn't respond too.

But he doesn't. Chandler doesn't. Chandler isn't the anchor of the team with the best record. Chandler doesn't lead the league in defensive +/- when he is off the court. Chandler doesn't out Rebound/Assist/Steal/Block/Defend/Win Dirk in less minutes.

So yes, if someone said something that stupid that was a bold faced lie, then your argument would hold water.

Saying Dirk is just >>> Duncan is a DB.COMER take. Present your argument.

Not only can you not present one, you again miss the damn point because you are either incapable of understanding it, or because you are really butthurt over a Spur making it.

For now the fourth time, I never argued Duncan>>>>Dirk. What I did ask (for the fourth time now) is for people to explain why Duncan on the All-Star team is some egregious, horrific sham and why Dirk is a no brainer when Tim anchor's the defense on the best team in the league record wise and out produces Dirk in every category (Defense/Rebounding/Assist/Steals/Blocks) except for points.

Especially when you take into consideration Tim doesn't have to score for the Spurs to win, but he anchors the defense? Why is that one stat and side of the ball so important and is winning not factored in?

[TD 21]

If you replaced Duncan with any of these players, the Spurs would be significantly worse..that's why I don't understand the outrage..

If you put Duncan on the Blazers instead of Aldridge, would they be better?..probably not..same with Love..however, the #1 team in the NBA is anchored by Duncan on D, which wouldn't be replaced by any of his All-Star competition, and he's the best passer of the bunch, which is another underrated key to the Spurs' offense..

The Spurs are #3 in the NBA from an offensive standpoint, they don't need any more offensive firepower..

Exactly.

Anyone questioning Duncan's selection has no credibility.

How can anyrone think Garnett is deserving and Duncan is not? Don't give me this "there's less competition in the East" bullshit. At Duncan's position, center (coaches can vote for players based on where they primarily play, even if they're not listed at that position on the ballot), his competition is Chandler, Okafor and Nene.

Who questions an all-time great making it? Almost all of them make it a year or two after they should have and no one says a damn thing (Garnett shouldn't have been on for three years, based on the flak Duncan is getting). The thing is, Duncan is still deserving, because he's top two in his position in the conference and his team has far and away the best record in the league.

It's funny how winning, defense, rebounding, intangibles, etc. trumped numbers (scoring average) until it was the Spurs who were running away with the best record in the league and it was a highly entertaining player and a white player leading the good stats/bad teams guys.

That fat, disrespectful clown Barkley is the biggest joke of all. He throws out this disclaimer whenever talking about Duncan "greatest power forward of all-time, but . . .". He thinks it gives him free reign to relentlessly bash him after saying that. As if no one will realize that he has a problem with him.

Based on how the standards have always been, Love has no business being an All-Star and neither does Griffin. Griffin has more of a case than Love, though. At least in his case, his team is trending up. Love has made zero impact on winning whatsoever. They're still the same basement dwellers they always are.

I've never seen so much hand wringing over a guy who's on a bottom feeder and isn't a perennial All-Star to begin with. No one cared when Abdur-Rahim was fifth in scoring or when Randolph was throwing up 20/10, etc. People complained about their lack of influence on winning, shoddy defense, etc. None of that with Love.

Parker should have had Griffin's spot and Aldridge should be named the replacement for Yao.

[FkLA]

are mav fans really talking shit about TD getting in?

funny how these idiots werent saying shit, a yr ago when Cuban got on his knees and got a much more blatanly undeserving Kidd into the game just bc it was in Dallas.

[badfish22]

:lol such a homer. Dirk is the number one option on a team with (no with caron gone) very little help. He can will them to wins. Replace him with Duncan and this team sucks.
And you are still over rating Duncans D. He rarely guards the teams best post player and when he does he gets bukkaked (ex Aldrige).
Dirk was number one on NBA.com and ESPN.coms MVP list for a long time before he got hurt. The only spur to appear on that list was manu.

The only one I would have to argue this too would be a homer spurfan.

[badfish22]

are mav fans really talking shit about TD getting in?


Not really mav fans. All fans.

[FkLA]

Not really mav fans. All fans.

you know what the funny thing is...I specifically remember you being the head of the mavs committee last yr trying to justify kidd's selection? where was this passion and hate for undeserving selections a yr ago ??

[FkLA]

There are enough scorers on the team. It needed some passers. And who cares if Kidd can't defend Rose worth a shit? Does anyone defend at the all-star game?

homer :lol

[DPG21920]

:lol such a homer. Dirk is the number one option on a team with (no with caron gone) very little help. He can will them to wins. Replace him with Duncan and this team sucks.
And you are still over rating Duncans D. He rarely guards the teams best post player and when he does he gets bukkaked (ex Aldrige).
Dirk was number one on NBA.com and ESPN.coms MVP list for a long time before he got hurt. The only spur to appear on that list was manu.

The only one I would have to argue this too would be a homer spurfan.

Caron has been gone the whole year? Dirk is the number one option on offense, great. Tim is the anchor of the defense, a job just as important as Dirk's and his team is number one.

So when you cancel those out, Tim outperforms Dirk in every other statistical category.

Replace Dirk with Tim and the Mavs don't suck. Tim can still score. There is a difference in not having to score and not able. If you put TP and Manu on the Mavs, Dirk isn't scoring as much. Plain and simple.

If you put Dirk on the Spurs, they are worse than they are now. Spurs need Tim's defense, not offense. We have the number one offense without Dirk and our defense would be SIGNIFICANTLY worse with Dirk.

:lol Using NBA.COM list as an argument.

Duncan barely guarded LA. Also, your shitty "eyeball test" argument about Duncan's defense doesn't hold up when you look at statistics.

Just throwing around words like "bukkaked" doesn't make the argument good. Especially when you cannot substantiate what you are saying.

Also, again, you failed to address my question.

[ohmwrecker]

Duncan is easily a better player than every Western Conference center on the All-Star ballot.

[sefant77]

The art of finding an AS in the East, "It's like going to a bar and trying to pick up a bunch of ugly girls. Somebody's gotta win" -Barkley

:rollin

[Bito Corleone]

Exactly.

Anyone questioning Duncan's selection has no credibility.

How can anyrone think Garnett is deserving and Duncan is not? Don't give me this "there's less competition in the East" bullshit. At Duncan's position, center (coaches can vote for players based on where they primarily play, even if they're not listed at that position on the ballot), his competition is Chandler, Okafor and Nene.

Who questions an all-time great making it? Almost all of them make it a year or two after they should have and no one says a damn thing (Garnett shouldn't have been on for three years, based on the flak Duncan is getting). The thing is, Duncan is still deserving, because he's top two in his position in the conference and his team has far and away the best record in the league.

It's funny how winning, defense, rebounding, intangibles, etc. trumped numbers (scoring average) until it was the Spurs who were running away with the best record in the league and it was a highly entertaining player and a white player leading the good stats/bad teams guys.

That fat, disrespectful clown Barkley is the biggest joke of all. He throws out this disclaimer whenever talking about Duncan "greatest power forward of all-time, but . . .". He thinks it gives him free reign to relentlessly bash him after saying that. As if no one will realize that he has a problem with him.

Based on how the standards have always been, Love has no business being an All-Star and neither does Griffin. Griffin has more of a case than Love, though. At least in his case, his team is trending up. Love has made zero impact on winning whatsoever. They're still the same basement dwellers they always are.

I've never seen so much hand wringing over a guy who's on a bottom feeder and isn't a perennial All-Star to begin with. No one cared when Abdur-Rahim was fifth in scoring or when Randolph was throwing up 20/10, etc. People complained about their lack of influence on winning, shoddy defense, etc. None of that with Love.

Parker should have had Griffin's spot and Aldridge should be named the replacement for Yao.

Please post this in BR's asshurt thread. Thanks :toast

[ALVAREZ6]

Parker should not have had Griffin's spot. Not that Parker is undeserving, but Griffin is one of the most, he's just on a shitty team.

[Kai]

IMO, both Ginobili and Duncan deserve to be on the team for the sole reason that their team has yet to lose 10 games. The Spurs are getting it done like no one else can, so their best players should be represented in LA.

[badfish22]

So when you cancel those out, Tim outperforms Dirk in every other statistical category.
:lol this is such shitty argument. Dirk blows Duncan out of the water in every thing related to scoring, and most advanced stats, but since Duncan has more rebounds, assist and block he is the better player.


Caron has been gone the whole year? Dirk is the number one option on offense, great. Tim is the anchor of the defense, a job just as important as Dirk's and his team is number one.



:lmao



:lol Using NBA.COM list as an argument.
? Dirk is a MVP candidate, Duncan isn't even in the discussion. telling.


Duncan barely guarded LA

:lol why not? If hes such a great defender, why didn't he guard the player at his position that was going off?

[badfish22]

you know what the funny thing is...I specifically remember you being the head of the mavs committee last yr trying to justify kidd's selection? where was this passion and hate for undeserving selections a yr ago ??

That was after multiple injuries.