Brace yourself for the food-price bubble

[RandomGuy]

Interesting opinion piece at the Christian Science Monitor.

It may be an opinion piece, but I think the guy has it right about the effects of prices. He is a bit too alarmist as to the ultimate effects, IMO. If you are a farmer with a good supply of water, life will be good for you.

What you can expect from this is a concurrent rise in the price of water in the US as well. US cities have have previously made attempts at conservation measures will see some hansome dividends.

Funny thing is that the people who bitch most about "those damn environmentalist whackos" and thier silly "anti-market" strategies that favor long term solutions over short terms ones, are probably going to be the same dumbasses who bitch most about their water bills going up. "I love the free market, just not when it means I have to pay more for stuff". :rolleyes

Most water use in the US goes towards electrical power generation, by the way, followed closely behind by agriculture. http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/water/a_wateruse.html

-------------------------------------------------------

By Lester R. Brown Lester R. Brown – Tue Feb 8, 1:24 pm ET
Washington – In early January, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) reported that its Food Price Index had reached an all-time high in December, exceeding the previous record set during the 2007-08 price surge. Even more alarming, on February 3, the FAO announced that the December record had been broken in January as prices climbed an additional 3 percent.

Will this rise in food prices continue in the months ahead? In all likelihood we will see further rises that will take the world into uncharted territory in the relationship between food prices and political stability.

Everything now depends on this year’s harvest. Lowering food prices to a more comfortable level will require a bumper grain harvest, one much larger than the record harvest of 2008 that combined with the economic recession to end the 2007-08 grain price climb.

IN PICTURES: Harvest season

If the world has a poor harvest this year, food prices will rise to previously unimaginable levels. Food riots will multiply, political unrest will spread, and governments will fall. The world is now one poor harvest away from chaos in world grain markets.

Overpumped aquifersOver the longer term, expanding food production rapidly is becoming more difficult as food bubbles based on the overpumping of underground water burst, shrinking grain harvests in many countries. Meanwhile, increasing climate volatility, including more frequent, more extreme weather events, will make the expansion of production more erratic.

Some 18 countries have inflated their food production in recent decades by overpumping aquifers to irrigate their crops. Among these are China, India, and the United States, the big three grain producers.

When water-based food bubbles burst in some countries, they will dramatically reduce production. In others, they may only slow production growth. In Saudi Arabia, which was wheat self-sufficient for more than 20 years, the wheat harvest is collapsing and will likely disappear entirely within a year or so as the country’s fossil (nonreplenishable) aquifer, is depleted.

In Syria and Iraq, grain harvests are slowly shrinking as irrigation wells dry up. Yemen is a hydrological basket case, where water tables are falling throughout the country and wells are going dry. These bursting food bubbles make the Arab Middle East the first geographic region where aquifer depletion is shrinking the grain harvest.

While these Middle East declines are dramatic, the largest water-based food bubbles are in India and China. A World Bank study indicates that 175 million people in India are being fed with grain produced by overpumping. In China, overpumping is feeding 130 million people. Spreading water shortages in both of these population giants are making it more difficult to expand their food supplies.

Climate changeBeyond irrigation wells going dry, farmers must contend with climate change. Crop ecologists have a rule of thumb that for each 1-degree-Celsius rise in temperature during the growing season, grain yields drop 10 percent. Thus it was no surprise that searing temperatures in western Russia last summer shrank the grain harvest by 40 percent.

On the demand side of the food equation, there are now three sources of growth. First is population growth. There will be 219,000 people at the dinner table tonight who were not there last night, many of them with empty plates. Second is rising affluence. Some three billion people are now trying to move up the food chain, consuming more grain-intensive meat, milk, and eggs. And third, massive amounts of grain are being converted into oil, i.e. ethanol, to fuel cars. Roughly 120 million tons of the 400-million-ton 2010 US grain harvest are going to ethanol distilleries.

Encouragingly, President Nicolas Sarkozy of France vowed to use his term as president of the G-20 in 2011 to stabilize world food prices. Thus far the talk has been about such measures as regulating export restrictions and speculation, but if the G-20 ends up treating the symptoms and not the causes of rising food prices, the effort will be of little avail.

What is needed now is a worldwide effort to raise water productivity, similar to the one launched by the international community a half-century ago to raise cropland productivity. This earlier effort tripled the world grain yield per acre between 1950 and 2010.

On the climate front, the goal of cutting carbon emissions 80 percent by 2050 – the widely accepted goal by governments – is not sufficient. The challenge now is to cut carbon emissions 80 percent by 2020 with a World War II-type mobilization to raise energy efficiency and to shift from fossil fuels to wind, solar, and geothermal energy.

RELATED: Inflation rate headed up? The impact of higher food, energy prices.

On the demand side, we need to accelerate the shift to smaller families. There are 215 million women in the world who want to plan their families but lack access to family-planning services. They and their families represent over a billion of the world’s poorest people. While filling the family-planning gap, we need to simultaneously launch an all-out effort to eradicate poverty. Once under way, these two trends reinforce each other.

And in an increasingly hungry world, converting grain into fuel for cars is not the way to go. It is time to remove subsidies for converting grain and other crops into automotive fuel. If President Sarkozy can get the G-20 to focus on the causes of rising food prices, and not just the symptoms, then food prices can be stabilized at a more comfortable level.

Lester R. Brown, founder of the Earth Policy Institute, has been called one of the world’s most influential thinkers by The Washington Post. His latest book is “Outgrowing the Earth: The Food Security Challenge in an Age of Falling Water Tables and Rising Temperatures.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20110208/cm_csm/361915
---------------------------------------------------

[BlairForceDejuan]

Bought my seeds off of Glenn Beck advertisements. Ain't even mad.

[boutons_deux]

This is all bullshit.

The world is on a completely sustainable paths in every sector.

And I expect our leadership to keep us on the same paths, just as they are told to do by the VRWC, which is perfectly positioned to be fully immune to, insulated from any crisis as well as reaping windfall, extortionate profits in every sector.

[BlairForceDejuan]

VRWC stocked up on seeds too?

[boutons_deux]

yep, Monsanto has purchased patents on all kinds of seeds, while selling the world sterile seeds that produce one crop and die, forcing the suckered farmers to keep buying Monsanto seeds every year.

10s of 1000s of Indian farmers have committed suicide when they realized they had been suckered by Monsanto and Monsanto's hitmen in India.

It was amazing that when Monsanto "donated" seeds to help the Haiti earthquake victims, the Haitians burned the seeds, showing they are smarter than US farmers suckered into the Monsanto hall of suckers.

[sickdsm]

yep, Monsanto has purchased patents on all kinds of seeds, while selling the world sterile seeds that produce one crop and die, forcing the suckered farmers to keep buying Monsanto seeds every year.

10s of 1000s of Indian farmers have committed suicide when they realized they had been suckered by Monsanto and Monsanto's hitmen in India.

It was amazing that when Monsanto "donated" seeds to help the Haiti earthquake victims, the Haitians burned the seeds, showing they are smarter than US farmers suckered into the Monsanto hall of suckers.


Explain what they hell you mean. I'm not aware of ANYTHING like that.


Are urban folk THIS misunderstood about agriculture?
:wow:wow:wow

[Winehole23]

Never heard of the terminator gene?

[sickdsm]

..........showing they are smarter than US farmers suckered into the Monsanto hall of suckers.


......Or showing that they don't have the same laws........
:rolleyes

[sickdsm]

Never heard of the terminator gene?


Not in regards to US crops........... If he's inferring that the reason that US farmers are being "suckered" into buying seed every year because of that, he's dead wrong.


Its the deadbeats in other countries that don't have any laws enforced that need to have this gene, if they do it.

I applaud it solely for the reason that the US farmer takes it in the shorts for places like Brazil and anywhere else where they don't respect that they need to pay tech fees.

If you don't want the technology thats put into GMO seeds, don't plant them!

[RandomGuy]

Explain what they hell you mean. I'm not aware of ANYTHING like that.


Are urban folk THIS misunderstood about agriculture?
:wow:wow:wow

I also did some fact checking on it.

That would be the "terminator" seeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto



In June 2007,[33] Monsanto acquired Delta & Pine Land Company, a company that had patented a seed technology nicknamed Terminators. This technology, which was never known to have been used commercially, produces plants that have sterile seeds so they do not flower or grow fruit after the initial planting. This prevents the spread of those seeds into the wild, however it also requires customers to repurchase seed for every planting in which they use Terminator seed varieties. Farmers who do not use a terminator seed could also be affected by his neighboring farmer that does through natural pollination. In recent years, widespread opposition from environmental organizations and farmer associations has grown, mainly out of the concerns that hypothetical seeds using this technology could increase farmers' dependency on seed suppliers.

Despite the fact that in 1999, Monsanto pledged not to commercialize Terminator technology,[34] Delta Vice President, Harry Collins, declared at the time in a press interview in the Agra/Industrial Biotechnology Legal Letter, ‘We’ve continued right on with work on the Technology Protection System (TPS or Terminator). We never really slowed down. We’re on target, moving ahead to commercialize it. We never really backed off.’ [35]
See also:
Genetic Use Restriction Technology (GURT) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_technology)

If you aren't aware of this, you probably should be. If your neighbor starts using the seeds and they effect your crops, you would start having a direct interest in this tragedy of the commons-style snafu.

I think that bouton's direct linking of these seeds to suicides is outright spurious, because from what I have seen, the technology has never been used commercially anywhere. These suicides have been caused by increased indebtedness on the part of Indian farmers who have been predated upon by what amounts to loansharks, but none of that indebtedness has been caused by Monsanto.

Not that Monsanto is some saintly company. It isn't.

[sickdsm]

As far as the water situation RG, I always find it humorous that when waters in need, the downstream communities insist its their water. When flooding or its inconvenient, how dare you push water downstream.


Most commodity crops that are irrigated are grown in non-ideal locations. Texas, arizona, nebraska, etc.... Yes, Nebraska. It may be known for corn but theres a reason why when you fly over all you can see is center pivots. But hey, its obvious that using water off of your own land to raise crops is second priority to providing water to desert cities like Vegas. Maybe some of these cities should be looking at their own resources first instead of an afterthought?

[sickdsm]

I also did some fact checking on it.

That would be the "terminator" seeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto



See also:
Genetic Use Restriction Technology (GURT) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_technology)

If you aren't aware of this, you probably should be. If your neighbor starts using the seeds and they effect your crops, you would start having a direct interest in this tragedy of the commons-style snafu.

I think that bouton's direct linking of these seeds to suicides is outright spurious, because from what I have seen, the technology has never been used commercially anywhere. These suicides have been caused by increased indebtedness on the part of Indian farmers who have been predated upon by what amounts to loansharks, but none of that indebtedness has been caused by Monsanto.

Not that Monsanto is some saintly company. It isn't.

I don't think that anyone really cares for Monsonto. But GMO seed is alot like music or movies. Do you have a problem with renting movies that expire 24 hours? No one is forcing you to use Monsonto seed. More than likely i'm guessing that they're doing it because of third world countries using illegal seed.

[balli]

If you don't want the technology thats put into GMO seeds, don't plant them!
As if cross pollination doesn't exist.

And as if Monsanto doesn't have an army of lawyers out there making sure to sue the pants off any (read every) farmer who is affected by it.

Yes, in effect, forcing farmers to plant GMO seeds.

[sickdsm]

I also did some fact checking on it.

That would be the "terminator" seeds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto



See also:
Genetic Use Restriction Technology (GURT) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_use_restriction_technology)

If you aren't aware of this, you probably should be. If your neighbor starts using the seeds and they effect your crops, you would start having a direct interest in this tragedy of the commons-style snafu.

I think that bouton's direct linking of these seeds to suicides is outright spurious, because from what I have seen, the technology has never been used commercially anywhere. These suicides have been caused by increased indebtedness on the part of Indian farmers who have been predated upon by what amounts to loansharks, but none of that indebtedness has been caused by Monsanto.

Not that Monsanto is some saintly company. It isn't.



per linked article

but it is not yet commercially available.

boutons claim

while selling the world sterile seeds that produce one crop and die




Sooooo, exactly where are they selling seed with this gene?

[sickdsm]

As if cross pollination doesn't exist.

And as if Monsanto doesn't have an army of lawyers out there making sure to sue the pants off any (read every) farmer who is affected by it.

Yes, in effect, forcing farmers to plant GMO seeds.

I'm not saying it doesn't. But you're not going to suddenly have a crop infected just like that. Say you're planting non-gmo soybeans (because you can't really grow a crop using overrun field corn) and by some miracle my neighbor did have the terminator gene. It will do some cross pollination, but not enough to cause a problem in seed germ for a new crop.

Monsanto does have police out there, they allow a certain percentage of RR beans on a non-RR field. Believe me, I'm in no way happy with how they do things but I play fair because they can be so ruthless. RR 1 patent expires in 2014 so i'm curious as to how that will play out then.

[RandomGuy]

If you don't want the technology thats put into GMO seeds, don't plant them!

Unfortunately, that isn't quite the way that plant biology works. You should know that.

A Tale Of Two Seed Farmers: Organic Vs. Engineered (http://www.npr.org/2011/01/25/133178893/a-tale-of-two-seed-farmers-organic-vs-engineered)


Since seeds are genetic packages, it is perhaps unsurprising that a battle erupted when some of these farmers started growing genetically engineered sugar beets a few years ago. The beets have a new gene, created in the laboratory, which allows them to tolerate the weedkiller Roundup.

On one side of the battle is organic farmer Frank Morton, a relative newcomer to the Willamette Valley's farming community. He grew up in West Virginia, but moved to Oregon in the 1970s to go to college. "This valley is not big enough to have genetically engineered crops and normal crops growing together without cross contamination happening," he says.

On the other side is Tim Winn, who has lived and worked on the same farm his whole life, on the banks of the Willamette River just northeast of Corvallis. Winn says government scientists have concluded that there is nothing dangerous in the new gene, and thus no novel risk for Morton or his customers to worry about.

Questions about the science/harm involved in genetic modification aside, there is a great deal of demand for non-GM crops, from people who don't want that, so there is real commercial harm done to an organic farmer if his neighbor chooses to use the GM stuff.


In fact, [Morton] says, just the possibility of contamination is starting to hurt.

"We think that buyers from overseas — organic seed companies — we think they have already started to avoid buying from us," he says.

So Morton, together with some environmental groups, went to court and won.

A federal judge banned the planting of "Roundup Ready" sugar beets until the USDA does an environmental impact study that examines the economic consequences of cross-pollination, especially for organic farmers. In a similar case, another judge demanded the same thing for genetically engineered alfalfa.

[balli]

It will do some cross pollination, but not enough to cause a problem in seed germ for a new crop.
Maybe not, but enough of a problem for Monsanto to sue for patent infringement.

RR 1 patent expires in 2014 so i'm curious as to how that will play out then.
I have no real informed idea what it will mean for the soybean biz. I'd expect Monsanto simply releases a new version of RR soybean, with a new patent. Given the obscene RR alfalfa decision just rendered by the USDA, I don't know if it matters. Monsanto will rape these crops one at a time. If one patent expires, so what? They'll get another.

[RandomGuy]

per linked article

but it is not yet commercially available.

boutons claim

while selling the world sterile seeds that produce one crop and die




Sooooo, exactly where are they selling seed with this gene?


I think that bouton's direct linking of these seeds to suicides is outright spurious, because from what I have seen, the technology has never been used commercially anywhere. These suicides have been caused by increased indebtedness on the part of Indian farmers who have been predated upon by what amounts to loansharks, but none of that indebtedness has been caused by Monsanto.

You are asking the wrong person.

[sickdsm]

I wasn't really asking you, just using your post as a basis. Terminator gene is just fear mongering as of now.

[RandomGuy]

As far as the water situation RG, I always find it humorous that when waters in need, the downstream communities insist its their water. When flooding or its inconvenient, how dare you push water downstream.


Most commodity crops that are irrigated are grown in non-ideal locations. Texas, arizona, nebraska, etc.... Yes, Nebraska. It may be known for corn but theres a reason why when you fly over all you can see is center pivots. But hey, its obvious that using water off of your own land to raise crops is second priority to providing water to desert cities like Vegas. Maybe some of these cities should be looking at their own resources first instead of an afterthought?

They are. Regional water management bodies are starting to form, because of the interdependency of various areas on available water.

Texas is having some nasty court battles over this at the moment.

[sickdsm]

Maybe not, but enough of a problem for Monsanto to sue for patent infringement.

I have no real informed idea what it will mean for the soybean biz. I'd expect Monsanto simply releases a new version of RR soybean, with a new patent. Given the obscene RR alfalfa decision just rendered by the USDA, I don't know if it matters. Monsanto will rape these crops one at a time. If one patent expires, so what? They'll get another.


Really? Why do you say that?


RR2 genes have been out for a bit now. The problem is that GMO seed with ONLY the RR gene in it was one of the first RR seeds available. Basically I believe that would be non-existant right now. Sort of like making microsoft technology all free as long as its only combined with a 486 processor, floppy drive and windows 3.1.

[sickdsm]

They are. Regional water management bodies are starting to form, because of the interdependency of various areas on available water.

Texas is having some nasty court battles over this at the moment.

They should have thought about that decades ago.

I can't drain water nor do I have the right to pump water onto my land. Kinda BS, isn't it? That's included in your subsidies. Don't think for a second that if subsidies end the rulebook won't be thrown out the window.

[boutons_deux]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1082559/The-GM-genocide-Thousands-Indian-farmers-committing-suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_in_India

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/12/13/vandana_shiva_on_farmer_suicides_the

http://www.naturalnews.com/z030913_Monsanto_suicides.html

"globalization" = predatory corps fucking everybody and everything. When the US corps were initially pushing for "free trade" and "globalization" we should have known it was good for the corps and fucked for everybody else.

Monsanto hires PIs to sample farmers' crops, then sues the farmers for license fees if their crops have been contaminated by Monsanto proprietary GM products.

[Winehole23]

I wasn't really asking you, just using your post as a basis. Terminator gene is just fear mongering as of now.Sure. As of now, it's speculative.

But you yourself said Monsanto can be ruthless in their practices. How do you see all this getting thrashed out in 2014 and afterward? Would you characterize all of the concerns about about RR and GMO engineering as irrational and baseless?

[sickdsm]

Organic farmer have some of the biggest crooks in the farming community among them. Alot that I know are about as shady as you can get.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to co-mingle "organic" and GMO crops together and pass them all off as organic. I believe its pretty common, as most organic farms that i've seen AREN'T 100% organic. Not to mention it can be alot harder on the environment.


But you're point is that organic needs to be 100% to truly be organic still is true. Its alot like having black paint and you're neighbor having white paint. It needs only a drop of black to make that white impure. There is no health or enviroment problems from it though.

[RandomGuy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1082559/The-GM-genocide-Thousands-Indian-farmers-committing-suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_in_India

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/12/13/vandana_shiva_on_farmer_suicides_the

http://www.naturalnews.com/z030913_Monsanto_suicides.html

"globalization" = predatory corps fucking everybody and everything. When the US corps were initially pushing for "free trade" and "globalization" we should have known it was good for the corps and fucked for everybody else.

Monsanto hires PIs to sample farmers' crops, then sues the farmers for license fees if their crops have been contaminated by Monsanto proprietary GM products.

These people would be in trouble no matter what kind of seed they used, simply because of the lack of rain.

Monsanto is no saint, but saying that the only reason the people are in trouble is the seeds they bought from the company is simply, and provably false.

Monsanto does seem to be a bunch of thugs, don't get me wrong. I just don't think they had as much to do with the problem of farmer suicides as some want us to think.

[RandomGuy]

Organic farmer have some of the biggest crooks in the farming community among them. Alot that I know are about as shady as you can get.

You'd be surprised how easy it is to co-mingle "organic" and GMO crops together and pass them all off as organic. I believe its pretty common, as most organic farms that i've seen AREN'T 100% organic. Not to mention it can be alot harder on the environment.


But you're point is that organic needs to be 100% to truly be organic still is true. Its alot like having black paint and you're neighbor having white paint. It needs only a drop of black to make that white impure. There is no health or enviroment problems from it though.

Aside from increased usage of the herbicides and pesticides that these crops are supposed to be resistant to, you mean.

Start drinking the run-off from fields where this stuff is used, and I might find that credible.

[sickdsm]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1082559/The-GM-genocide-Thousands-Indian-farmers-committing-suicide-using-genetically-modified-crops.html

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Monsanto_in_India

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/12/13/vandana_shiva_on_farmer_suicides_the

http://www.naturalnews.com/z030913_Monsanto_suicides.html

"globalization" = predatory corps fucking everybody and everything. When the US corps were initially pushing for "free trade" and "globalization" we should have known it was good for the corps and fucked for everybody else.

Monsanto hires PIs to sample farmers' crops, then sues the farmers for license fees if their crops have been contaminated by Monsanto proprietary GM products.



Are you fucking serious? They had a crop failure and couldn't pay his bills. Do you honestly think that doesn't happen with everything? What if he borrowed money for a tractor, or a toilet? Are tractors and toilets the reason he killed himself? When you don't work for someone else, you assume all risks, just as this guy did. I'm not going to bother reading any more fucking links you post if there going to be as retarded as you.


Go look up some more fucking links to tell me where all these one and done seeds are being sold. Tell me if they enforce patents and copyrights too.

[sickdsm]

Aside from increased usage of the herbicides and pesticides that these crops are supposed to be resistant to, you mean.

Start drinking the run-off from fields where this stuff is used, and I might find that credible.


Glyphospate is one if not the most harmless herbicides there is. It breaks down in sunlight and it has ZERO residual effect. Meaning if it doesn't make direct contact with the plant, it will have zero effects. You can go to a field the next day, dig up soil, pour water in it and strain the soil out and pour the liquid on a weed and it will not kill it.

Glyphospate is also DECREASING the amount of herbicide's used prior to RR seed.

Farmers health has improved since getting rid of some of the older chemicals. I used to get really sick after spraying other things years ago.

Is it good for the environment to cultivate umpteen times a year? You do realize the amount of land required to produce the same amount is a lot higher with organice with the hard task of weed control, right?

Start drinking the run-off from fields where this stuff is used, and I might find that credible.


My dad actually has done that after it runs through the tile. I've got a pretty good story about that one time.....
:lol

[sickdsm]

These people would be in trouble no matter what kind of seed they used, simply because of the lack of rain.

Monsanto is no saint, but saying that the only reason the people are in trouble is the seeds they bought from the company is simply, and provably false.

Monsanto does seem to be a bunch of thugs, don't get me wrong. I just don't think they had as much to do with the problem of farmer suicides as some want us to think.


I remember reading story a few years ago on how they sued a guy who run a seed cleaning business. Basically because he was "helping" farmers who wanted to illegally save seed.


Really isn't up to him to determine if its GMO or non GMO.

Non GMO beans will yield the same if not better than RR beans. Problem is its cheaper to pay the tech fees and spray cheap Rup a couple times then it is to spray the expensive, very fussy herbicides.

[Winehole23]

You and Cosmic Cowboy should commiserate someday. Sounds like you might have a few things in common.

[sickdsm]

I have enough in common with alot of the people i know.

If I'm going to seek out someone, i'll take the suggestion from someone I value, no offense.

[Winehole23]

None taken.

[Winehole23]

I'm kind of disappointed there's been no substantive discussion as yet of a probable food/fuel bubble. Could be pretty gnarly.

[Nbadan]

well, in all fairness...RG posts about the commodity bubble about once a week, it's been rehashed in many threads...

[Winehole23]

well, in all fairness...RG posts about the commodity bubble about once a week, it's been rehashed in many threads... Before I attempt to demolish it utterly I ought to say, that is a fair point, Dan. :tu

OTOH, is the topic really so unworthy of the focus given, in your view? How many people are potentially effected by the price of food and fuel?

It should also be kept in mind that topics sometimes vanish into free-form banter and ribaldry in this forum. In fact, it is unusual for threads not to dissipate in petty strife, false hilarity and nonsense.That something has already been posted on extensively is no guarantee any substantive topical discussion has taken place yet.

If it has been rehashed ad nauseam in your opinion, perhaps you can put it in a nutshell for us. What did you take from the previous state of the conversation, sir?

[Winehole23]

The contention that the theme has been overcooked here has merit IMO. Should a food/fuel bubble come to pass however, it could overcook us.

[LnGrrrR]

For what it's worth, I appreciated the rather in-depth discussion. I wasn't informed on this topic very well, and think I've gleaned a little insight. So thanks to all who have participated thus far.

[Winehole23]

I was more referring to the previous state of the conversation. The present one sorta got derailed from the ostensible topic, but it's not the worst thread ever.

[Nbadan]

Before I attempt to demolish it utterly I ought to say, that is a fair point, Dan. :tu

OTOH, is the topic really so unworthy of the focus given, in your view? How many people are potentially effected by the price of food and fuel?

It should also be kept in mind that topics sometimes vanish into free-form banter and ribaldry in this forum. In fact, it is unusual for threads not to dissipate in petty strife, false hilarity and nonsense.That something has already been posted on extensively is no guarantee any substantive topical discussion has taken place yet.

Let me ask you this.....the wing-nut pundits are a lot of fun....seriously.... all their shit is bullshit...visit any Yoni thread for proof....yet the M$M has bit into nutty wing-nut conspiracy theories like the Reverend Wright story.....the ACORN pimp.....the Birther movement....

So.....these pundits are laughable, just as many threads in this forum sometimes turn out....

....but have they none-the-less changed America? Hasn't America swung more wing-nut than ever with candidates like Sarah Palin and Michelle Bachmann offering her own state-of-the Union?