Wing Stopper

[TD 21]

Remember all the talk about the lack of a wing stopper in the off season? So much for that. Now, it is only two thirds of the way through the regular season, so there's plenty of time for this supposed vulnerability to emerge. But consider this: How many times this season have you thought to yourself after a game that the reason the Spurs struggled or lost because they didn't have anyone capable of playing acceptable defense on the wings?

This team is 7th in defensive efficiency at 100.4, a mere .3 away from 5th. They're better than they've been defensively in three years and this is with Duncan playing 28.7 mpg, Splitter not being a rotation player and Anderson having barely played at all. That's not to say their ranking is largely predicated on stellar defense on the wings. But if it were such an issue, even with an elite defensive anchor (which Duncan still is), they wouldn't be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Granted, they haven't played the Heat yet and did miss Anthony and Gay, among others, once.

What do you think, was the so-called issue overblown? Will it become an issue at some point? And, if you do think it will become an issue at some point, do you think they're strong enough in enough areas to overcome it?

[Mugen]

i thought this was a buffalo wing thread and got real excited for a second.

[lrrr]

Not having Finlet at the starting SF position has made all the difference.

[G-Dawgg]

i thought this was a buffalo wing thread and got real excited for a second.
DeJuan Blair looks like he could stop his fair share of buffalo wings....

[Obstructed_View]

Mmm...garlic wings with blue cheese...

[G-Dawgg]

But in all fairness, George Hill has been a pretty serious perimeter defender for us. He's definately not Bruce Bowen, but then again then aren't really many players in that class defensively anymore...

[Obstructed_View]

Remember all the talk about the lack of a wing stopper in the off season? So much for that. Now, it is only two thirds of the way through the regular season, so there's plenty of time for this supposed vulnerability to emerge. But consider this: How many times this season have you thought to yourself after a game that the reason the Spurs struggled or lost because they didn't have anyone capable of playing acceptable defense on the wings?

This team is 7th in defensive efficiency at 100.4, a mere .3 away from 5th. They're better than they've been defensively in three years and this is with Duncan playing 28.7 mpg, Splitter not being a rotation player and Anderson having barely played at all. That's not to say their ranking is largely predicated on stellar defense on the wings. But if it were such an issue, even with an elite defensive anchor (which Duncan still is), they wouldn't be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Granted, they haven't played the Heat yet and did miss Anthony and Gay, among others, once.

What do you think, was the so-called issue overblown? Will it become an issue at some point? And, if you do think it will become an issue at some point, do you think they're strong enough in enough areas to overcome it?

I said for a long time that the only way to replace Bowen is by committee. I'd submit that getting rid of guys like Barry, Finley, Mason and Bonner (in a starting role) and replacing them with Anderson, Neal, Hill, Blair and Dice is exactly why the Spurs have been able to succeed. For the first time in several years, the Spurs don't have one or two guys on the floor at any given time who are easily exploited by the other team (or just flat don't give a shit about defense).


In addition, you really can't overstate how much better Richard Jefferson has been on both ends of the floor this year.

[xmas1997]

Mmm...garlic wings with blue cheese...


Where do you get those??????????????

[ElNono]

What do you think, was the so-called issue overblown? Will it become an issue at some point? And, if you do think it will become an issue at some point, do you think they're strong enough in enough areas to overcome it?

I don't think it was overblown in the sense that a lot of people (me included) didn't think RJ had it on him anymore. But props to him for really working hard and sticking to putting the effort out there night in and out. Some credit also has to go to Dice, who has also improved on defensive rotations and understanding his defensive role much better, be it playing next to Duncan or not.

The other caveat is that nobody really knew the offense would turn into this meat grinder back then. I mean, it's rare if we don't shoot over 60% on at least a quarter in a game, and that was a rarity in season's past. Obviously, that puts less pressure on defense, and so giving up a few baskets is not a game changing proposition anymore.

All that said, I think we'll still have trouble with certain matchups, namely guys like Dirk, and potentially guys like Odom. But they're good players. As long as we can make up the difference on the other end (and this season looks like we can), then it's much less of a concern obviously.

[JR3]

I think it would still be nice to have but we dont need it! It has felt like a NEED in the past because of what we lacked in other areas of our team.. We have NEVER had shooting like this!

[honestfool84]

How many times this season have you thought to yourself after a game that the reason the Spurs ... lost because they didn't have anyone capable of playing acceptable defense on the wings?

not more than 9 times.

[honestfool84]

i thought this was a buffalo wing thread and got real excited for a second.

i was thinking more along the lines of this.

http://renewingcommunities.org/images/Wingstop_Green_Cream.jpeg

[Ditty]

i was thinking more along the lines of this.

http://renewingcommunities.org/images/Wingstop_Green_Cream.jpeg

:toast

I love there fries!

[barbacoataco]

Hill has done a good job when healthy defending some of the tougher matchups. Also Jefferson has been better, and it has been addition by subtraction because the Spurs don't have Finley or Mason anymore.

I still am not sure if the Spurs will be able to get enough stops when it really matters in the playoffs. They miss Bowen's ability to play physical defense without getting a lot of fouls called on him. George Hill trying to cover someone like Wade is not going to get a lot of calls his way, because he doesn't have the rep like Bowen had.

Still, the Spurs have had some good defensive moments this year holding teams to 13-15 points per quarter fairly often. Every team wishes they had some freaky 6' 10" athletic big who could cover the Dirk, Lebron, West, Aldridge and Odom type player. But there aren't that many guys like that out there.

[angelbelow]

I think this is an interesting thread. But my opinion is that wing stop is good but buffalo wild wings is better because of the environment and the bar environment.

[TDMVPDPOY]

this is how i see it

it use to be us adjusting our lineup to match the other team which = fail

now they are force to match up against our lineup and style of play, which is a win for us

remember since our last championship and small ball, pop went away from playin big frontline which costs us champions and losing to teams we have no business losing to.

[silverblk mystix]

Hill has done a good job when healthy defending some of the tougher matchups. Also Jefferson has been better, and it has been addition by subtraction because the Spurs don't have Finley or Mason anymore.

I still am not sure if the Spurs will be able to get enough stops when it really matters in the playoffs. They miss Bowen's ability to play physical defense without getting a lot of fouls called on him. George Hill trying to cover someone like Wade is not going to get a lot of calls his way, because he doesn't have the rep like Bowen had.

Still, the Spurs have had some good defensive moments this year holding teams to 13-15 points per quarter fairly often. Every team wishes they had some freaky 6' 10" athletic big who could cover the Dirk, Lebron, West, Aldridge and Odom type player. But there aren't that many guys like that out there.



Good points...

I also would add that the league is changing to allow OFFENSE to get away with more...and kind of handcuffing DEFENSES...

I don't know if Bowen was the last of his type-but the rule changes have made it much more important to be great at offense and just good at defense...

I think Pop saw this and made the changes to give the Spurs a chance to compete again.

[SenorSpur]

Remember all the talk about the lack of a wing stopper in the off season? So much for that. Now, it is only two thirds of the way through the regular season, so there's plenty of time for this supposed vulnerability to emerge. But consider this: How many times this season have you thought to yourself after a game that the reason the Spurs struggled or lost because they didn't have anyone capable of playing acceptable defense on the wings?

This team is 7th in defensive efficiency at 100.4, a mere .3 away from 5th. They're better than they've been defensively in three years and this is with Duncan playing 28.7 mpg, Splitter not being a rotation player and Anderson having barely played at all. That's not to say their ranking is largely predicated on stellar defense on the wings. But if it were such an issue, even with an elite defensive anchor (which Duncan still is), they wouldn't be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Granted, they haven't played the Heat yet and did miss Anthony and Gay, among others, once.

What do you think, was the so-called issue overblown? Will it become an issue at some point? And, if you do think it will become an issue at some point, do you think they're strong enough in enough areas to overcome it?

Because the NBA's better athletes can be found at the SG/SF position, I think about it everytime one of those players goes "iso" on the Spurs. Even your run-of-the-mill SG/SFs have individual field days on this team. DeMar DeRozan comes to mind, as of late. Caron Butler scorched the Spurs for 30 pts in an earlier game this season.

There's no question, as a team, the Spurs are playing better overall team defense. However, when they need to prevent opposing perimeter players from getting into the paint, denying face-up jumpers or keeping them getting to the offensive glass, this team STILL lacks a suitable defensive wing player that can cause problems for guys when they're "on a roll" and abusing the Spurs.

RJ and Neal are unable to defend at that type of level and it's unfair to expect Manu to do it, with his overall offensive responsibilities.

Furthermore, the lack of another big body, to help Tim protect the rim, really emphasizes the need for better perimeter defense.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I said for a long time that the only way to replace Bowen is by committee. I'd submit that getting rid of guys like Barry, Finley, Mason and Bonner (in a starting role) and replacing them with Anderson, Neal, Hill, Blair and Dice is exactly why the Spurs have been able to succeed. For the first time in several years, the Spurs don't have one or two guys on the floor at any given time who are easily exploited by the other team (or just flat don't give a shit about defense).

In addition, you really can't overstate how much better Richard Jefferson has been on both ends of the floor this year.

True and true.


I don't think it was overblown in the sense that a lot of people (me included) didn't think RJ had it on him anymore. But props to him for really working hard and sticking to putting the effort out there night in and out. Some credit also has to go to Dice, who has also improved on defensive rotations and understanding his defensive role much better, be it playing next to Duncan or not.

The other caveat is that nobody really knew the offense would turn into this meat grinder back then. I mean, it's rare if we don't shoot over 60% on at least a quarter in a game, and that was a rarity in season's past. Obviously, that puts less pressure on defense, and so giving up a few baskets is not a game changing proposition anymore.

All that said, I think we'll still have trouble with certain matchups, namely guys like Dirk, and potentially guys like Odom. But they're good players. As long as we can make up the difference on the other end (and this season looks like we can), then it's much less of a concern obviously.


Hill has done a good job when healthy defending some of the tougher matchups. Also Jefferson has been better, and it has been addition by subtraction because the Spurs don't have Finley or Mason anymore.

I still am not sure if the Spurs will be able to get enough stops when it really matters in the playoffs. They miss Bowen's ability to play physical defense without getting a lot of fouls called on him. George Hill trying to cover someone like Wade is not going to get a lot of calls his way, because he doesn't have the rep like Bowen had.

Still, the Spurs have had some good defensive moments this year holding teams to 13-15 points per quarter fairly often. Every team wishes they had some freaky 6' 10" athletic big who could cover the Dirk, Lebron, West, Aldridge and Odom type player. But there aren't that many guys like that out there.

Dice often does a great job on Dirk and West, although Lamar hacked him up (too quick) and LaMarcus stomped everyone who tried. We do lack that long, quick, defensive-minded 3/4/5, but as you say they are hard to come by, and the team D (and supercharged offense) is mostly making up for it.

This thread is a testament to how massively underrated Bruce Bowen always has been by all except hardcore Spurs fans. Here's to you, Bruce. :toast


Because the NBA's better athletes can be found at the SG/SF position, I think about it everytime one of those players goes "iso" on the Spurs. Even your run-of-the-mill SG/SFs have individual field days on this team. DeMar DeRozan comes to mind, as of late. Caron Butler scorched the Spurs for 30 pts in an earlier game this season.

There's no question, as a team, the Spurs are playing better overall team defense. However, when they need to prevent opposing perimeter players from getting into the paint, denying face-up jumpers or keeping them getting to the offensive glass, this team STILL lacks a suitable defensive wing player that can cause problems for guys when they're "on a roll" and abusing the Spurs.

RJ and Neal are unable to defend at that type of level and it's unfair to expect Manu to do it, with his overall offensive responsibilities.

Furthermore, the lack of another big body, to help Tim protect the rim, really emphasizes the need for better perimeter defense.

The "iso" guy who I used to worry about was Kobe, because he singlehandedly beat us more than once. However, he can't do it consistently any more, and I don't think he's capable of winning 4 out of 7 on his own.

I'll trust in the team D, the chemistry, and the high-octane O, and ride it as far as it goes. :D

[L.I.T]

What I think has helped overcome the issue somewhat is the fact that we seem to be playing a bit 'faster' on the defensive end as well; our players like RJ/Hill/Neal seem to be making a concerted effort to rotate quickly and stay with their man. I'm not sure if it's just the games I've been able to catch, but I've seen less funneling as well. At times though, it's been exposed when they get out of position or the ball is reversed; why some teams have been able to exploit us on the perimeter for open shots.

If our guys continue to be scrappy on the perimeter, tighten up rotations and play smart team defense we can mitigate the loss of a lockdown guy.

[TD 21]

ElNono, guys like Nowitzki and Odom have nothing to do with the wing defenders. They're power forwards.

honestfool84, the point was, even in games where the Spurs won, how many times have you felt the lack of a so-called wing stopper was noticeable or they had to overcome it?

SenorSpur, DeRozan isn't quite run of the mill, but even if you still consider him that, every team is going to have random players go off on them throughout the course of an 82 game season.

You're right, though. They're not good defensively in isolations on the perimeter and they really only have one shot blocker and have one player in their rotation above 6-9, yet despite that they're 7th in defensive efficiency and perilously close to 5th.

It's probably an issue that will become more pronounced eventually, but is it enough to be the Spurs undoing? My sense is, only the Heat could cause the Spurs enough of a problem in this area for that to be the case.

The reality is, the term "stopper" is becoming almost like the term "true center". There just aren't many around anymore and a lot of that has to do with the rules. Team defense and rim protection are more important than ever. This team is strong enough in enough areas that I'm confident they can overcome the lack of a go-to wing defender.

[BoricuaCJA]

i was thinking more along the lines of this.

http://renewingcommunities.org/images/Wingstop_Green_Cream.jpeg
http://the330.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/2751296-01_beefobradysspotlight.jpeg

[Solid D]

The Spurs could still use another good perimeter defender but the Spurs have done okay this year because:
1. RJ is playing very solid positional defense. Better than in the past.
2. Manu is playing very solid positional defense. Better than in the past.
3. Hill has been off and on playing solid positional defense.
4. The Spurs are trapping the ball on dangerous players (examples Melo, Kobe, Rose).
Note: This trapping may lose effectiveness in a 7 game series.

[Obstructed_View]

What I think has helped overcome the issue somewhat is the fact that we seem to be playing a bit 'faster' on the defensive end as well; our players like RJ/Hill/Neal seem to be making a concerted effort to rotate quickly and stay with their man. I'm not sure if it's just the games I've been able to catch, but I've seen less funneling as well. At times though, it's been exposed when they get out of position or the ball is reversed; why some teams have been able to exploit us on the perimeter for open shots.

If our guys continue to be scrappy on the perimeter, tighten up rotations and play smart team defense we can mitigate the loss of a lockdown guy.

Funnelling only works when you have two shot-blockers in the paint, which the Spurs don't have. It also served to really wear down Tim Duncan, as the only shot-blocker. The Spurs now have five guys who have quick enough feet to stay in front of their guy most of the time and quick enough hands to get into passing lanes to set up the running game. Also, unlike the last few years, they're running.

The biggest problem they've had defensively is when they switch on the pick and roll. The Knicks game comes to mind. Other than that they've been in just about every game, or they just lost because they couldn't hit a shot. For the relative effort level, they're playing far better defense than they have in a long time, which just means they're fresh for a playoff run.

[TampaDude]

I think this is an interesting thread. But my opinion is that wing stop is good but buffalo wild wings is better because of the environment and the bar environment.

+1 on BWW

Their new Thai Curry wings are off the chain! :hat

[bigdog]

Random fact: I met James Anderson at BWW on DeZavala in January.

I know that has nothing to do with this thread.....or maybe it does. Whatever.

[mingus]

George Hill has turned into a very good iso defender, which is what we hoped. The problem is he, nor anyone on this team can guard off the ball players very well, which is the one reason Ray Allen went off on us. So yeah against Boston I thought that was a vulnerability that cost us the game.

[ElNono]

ElNono, guys like Nowitzki and Odom have nothing to do with the wing defenders. They're power forwards.

They don't play like you classical power forwards though. They play a perimeter/midrange game. Especially Odom, who has played the wing while Gasol/Bynum man the interior.

They're rare matchups though. And guys like Dirk are hard to stop no matter who you throw at him.

[SsKSpurs21]

The Wing Stopper

you must get through him to getcho wings!

http://www.prlog.org/10122131-wingstop-spokesman-troy-aikman.jpg

[HarlemHeat37]

It's still a concern IMO, but having the wing stopper is no longer essential, as the Spurs potential competition doesn't have any dynamic wing scorers, unless the Spurs play the Heat in the Finals, which would be a cause for concern IMO..overall, the Spurs' D still concerns me..

The Spurs problem will be quick players that play off the dribble, and/or players that play primarily through screens..only Miami and Boston possess these types of impact players, and I'm fairly certain Pop would figure out a way to combat Ray Allen..

Some points:

- Jefferson's D is the same IMO..his statistical impact on the D is actually worse than last year, which isn't concrete proof, but he is far from the reason the Spurs' defense is better IMO..

- The Spurs' offense deserves a lot of credit, they are constantly putting pressure on the opposing defense, they control the tempo, and a forgotten key, is the fact that the opposing team's perimeter star(Kobe, Anthony, etc) can not roam on defense, like teams would previously do against the Spurs(Ime, Bogans, not needing quick rotations to close out on old players like Finley, even Bruce at the end), so they have to expand energy in guarding guys like Jefferson and Hill..the Spurs no longer have a weak link on offense, the opposing team can no longer have players that relax on the defensive end, vs. the Spurs..

- The Spurs' transition D is averaging 1 less PPG than last year, despite the faster pace..when you compound this with the fact that the Spurs' transition offense is much better, that's a significant swing of points..

- The Spurs' change of pace and addition of quicker players, has allowed them to gamble and swarm more, which has led to a significant increase in steals per game, which leads to fast breaks..

- The Spurs are #1 in the NBA in least fouls per game, which is huge improvement over last year..Blair and Hill in particular, have cut down on their fouls..Hill has improved his D, probably due to less offensive responsibility..

- The Spurs were last in the NBA in isolation defense last season..they aren't much better this year, but Pop seems to have recognized this flaw, and has allowed the D to play a quicker/free style, where they can gamble more and put on more pressure, to make up for the lack of a stopper..

- The Spurs' new style has improved the D in most ways, but it has also led to poor 3-point defense, due to allowing open looks from beyond..this will have to be addressed..

- One of the most important keys, is that the Spurs essentially added by subtraction..eliminating dead weight like Bogans, Finley and Mason was a major factor in this improvement IMO..they hurt the team on both ends of the floor, they didn't allow the Spurs' to play a free-flowing style, they were slow on rotations, they allowed the opposing team's perimeter star to rest on D..

[Solid D]

It's still a concern IMO, but having the wing stopper is no longer essential, as the Spurs potential competition doesn't have any dynamic wing scorers, unless the Spurs play the Heat in the Finals, which would be a cause for concern IMO..


- Jefferson's D is the same IMO..his statistical impact on the D is actually worse than last year, which isn't concrete proof, but he is far from the reason the Spurs' defense is better IMO....

Harlem, you and I are in agreement on several points...that is if your term for "swarming" means blitzing or trapping (which is what the Spurs are doing more of this season). It is an essential tactic and the Spurs have the players to do it more effectively now.

I disagree with you on your point about no real dynamic wing scorers as potential competition in the playoffs. Whether it's first round or following conference rounds, the Spurs may have to contend with Kevin Durant, Carmello Anthony (if he stays put) and Kobe Bryant. Each of these players are in the top 7 in NBA scoring and demand double attention whenever they get the ball in their hands.

Secondly, I have noticed some major changes in the way RJ approaches his defensive positioning and focus. He plays much stronger on the ball, he very physically plays over screen and his hand positioning and footwork are a page out of Bruce Bowen's primer. It's almost as though Bruce has taken RJ aside and showed him how to become a better defender. RJ has not gotten caught in no-man's land nearly as often as he did last season when he's on the weak side. I credit better focus for that aspect of his team defense.

Otherwise, you make some valid points.

[Seventyniner]

To answer the original question, I ask one of my own. Would you trade Richard Jefferson for Ron Artest?

[HarlemHeat37]

Harlem, you and I are in agreement on several points...that is if your term for "swarming" means blitzing or trapping (which is what the Spurs are doing more of this season). It is an essential tactic and the Spurs have the players to do it more effectively now.

:toast


I disagree with you on your point about no real dynamic wing scorers as potential competition in the playoffs. Whether it's first round or following conference rounds, the Spurs may have to contend with Kevin Durant, Carmello Anthony (if he stays put) and Kobe Bryant. Each of these players are in the top 7 in NBA scoring and demand double attention whenever they get the ball in their hands.

I should have elaborated when I said that..all 3 of those guys are great players, but I don't think the Spurs' need a "wing stopper" to stop Durant or Kobe..they're both strictly 1 on 1 scorers, they're both strictly jump shooters, neither is particularly athletic or quick..the Spurs usually do a decent job of defending players of that nature..

The Spurs' usually struggle against athleticism, wing players that attack the paint, wing players that move around a lot, at least IMO..Hill does a pretty good job at defending 1 on 1, and Manu has done a great job at defending Kobe 1 on 1 this season, as well..IIRC, Durant has only had 1 monster game vs. the Spurs this season/last season..

Carmelo would probably give the Spurs problems though, so I agree there..

Spurs' will struggle against guys like Lebron, Wade, Deron Williams, Rose, Rondo and other players of that nature..

Players like Ray Allen, that rely on ball movement, will also give the Spurs problems IMO..




Secondly, I have noticed some major changes in the way RJ approaches his defensive positioning and focus. He plays much stronger on the ball, he very physically plays over screen and his hand positioning and footwork are a page out of Bruce Bowen's primer. It's almost as though Bruce has taken RJ aside and showed him how to become a better defender. RJ has not gotten caught in no-man's land nearly as often as he did last season when he's on the weak side. I credit better focus for that aspect of his team defense.

I'll agree that he's made strides as a team defender, after thinking about it..I don't think he's made a significant improvement in 1 on 1 D, but I could be wrong..