Best Player in Texas???

[Amarelooms]

We all know the answer sons...no need to hurt feelings. God bless

:elephant

[BoricuaCJA]

And?????? Who has the best career in texas from players playing now??

[Leetonidas]

Currently? Dirk Nowitzki.

Obviously Duncan destroys Dirk in his prime but that's not the present reality unfortunately.

[jaffies]

Luis Scola?

[barbacoataco]

Nowitzki is the best right now. He is one of the hardest players to defend in the history of the game. I have to say that when he is on he can not be stopped. How can you defend a fadeaway jumper from a 6'11" guy?

In his prime Duncan. #2 player in Texas is Ginobili.

[jjktkk]

I'll go with Jason Witten.

[ALVAREZ6]

cool story bra

[ALVAREZ6]

interesting thread bro

[Blackjack]

You really want to put more expectation on a player, team with a choker label?

Stealth Mode, mucca - Spurs been doing it for years. :toast

[ALVAREZ6]

Most rings in Texas??????????


crofl, total combined rings of all Maverick players, all-time?

Less than Nazr Mohammed, TBH.

[TD 21]

It sure isn't that one dimensional, chronically overrated punk putting up Bargnani-esque rebounding totals.

Nowitzki is the only 7-0 I've ever see that can get away with being completely one dimensional (not to mention, being a career long choke artist) and have people slobber over him constantly. Gasol can throw up 21/9 on 60% and have people rip him relentlessly. You know how I know? Because that's exactly what he's doing this month.

[jjktkk]

Amarelooms, do you use the pink elephant on dm.com?

[oski1000]

How many :lobt2: won Nowitzky???

Best Texas players last decade: Duncan, Ginobili, Nowitzki.

[JR3]

I understand Texas is huge and I'm from Texas myself but.... why do people keep making an imaginary award for the "best in Texas". There is only 3 teams! There is no trophy or "TEXAS MVP" award! I just think this is weird and worthy of NO bragging rights at all. Especially as a Spurs fan, I would never start a thread like this. Our standards and goals are far beyond being the best out of three teams.

[hater]

Derrick Rose

[xmas1997]

Nowitski is the best BB player in Texas right now, followed closely by Manu.
The greatest BB player in Texas has to be TD by a long margin. Nowitski doesn't even, nor will he ever, come close.

[Phillip]

Currently? Dirk Nowitzki.

Obviously Duncan destroys Dirk in his prime but that's not the present reality unfortunately.

Destroy? Not quite. I think they both pretty much are a deadlock going head to head at their best. Both of them have extremely unique skill-sets, and neither have ever been able to guard each other effectively. Pop would never let Timmy guard Dirk straight up, even when Timmy was in his prime, and Dirk was still developing.

If you are talking about career accomplishments, then sure, although Duncan pretty much destroys the vast majority of players in NBA history in those.

[JR3]

Mav fans have to find small victories- its their MO.

[Phillip]

its funny how many gnsf got massively trolled here by fucking amarelooms of all posters

[y2kbug]

This existed once!
http://www.nba.com/spurs/promotions/texas_showdown_0405.html

[rascal]

Nowitski is the best BB player in Texas right now, followed closely by Manu.
The greatest BB player in Texas has to be TD by a long margin. Nowitski doesn't even, nor will he ever, come close.

Duncan > manu

The spurs would not even make the playoffs without Duncan.

[Shank]

lol still going with that "choke artist" bullshit that lives in your feeble little minds

[mikeschy55]

uh.... duh, roddy beaubois

[mikeschy55]

Duncan > manu

The spurs would not even make the playoffs without Duncan.

Is this really an argument in spurs land?

[8FOR!3]

Ehh, Ginobili's better than Nowitzki, Duncan's defense this year has been so solid that he's just as good or better...

[GrandeDavid]

Manu Ginobili is the greatest player in the state of Texas.

[Shank]

Manu Ginobili is the greatest player in the state of Texas.

6-18 shooting in a facefucking proves just as much. Please, do go on.

[poop]

lol still going with that "choke artist" bullshit that lives in your feeble little minds

no team in pro sports history has had an epic series of Chokes even close to the Dallas Mavericks.

hope this heps

[Shank]

no team in pro sports history has had an epic series of Chokes even close to the Dallas Mavericks.

hope this heps

no mexican will ever be elected president

hope this heps

[island_dude]

It sure isn't that one dimensional, chronically overrated punk putting up Bargnani-esque rebounding totals.

Nowitzki is the only 7-0 I've ever see that can get away with being completely one dimensional (not to mention, being a career long choke artist) and have people slobber over him constantly. Gasol can throw up 21/9 on 60% and have people rip him relentlessly. You know how I know? Because that's exactly what he's doing this month.

One of five players in NBA history to average 25-10 in the post season. Yeah, I guess that makes you a one dimensional choke artist. One bad series in 10 years of post season play does not make someone a choke artist.

[wontstartdumbthreads]

Vaginald Poopshoosten?

[Solid D]

Best Player in Texas???

In what? H.O.R.S.E.? Regular Season? NBA Finals?

[wontstartdumbthreads]

In what? H.O.R.S.E.? Regular Season? NBA Finals?

In Finals, it's Vaginald Poopshoosten
In Horse, it's Diapers Maghee
In Regular season, it's probably, Dingo Fillwhilly

[Leetonidas]

Destroy? Not quite. I think they both pretty much are a deadlock going head to head at their best. Both of them have extremely unique skill-sets, and neither have ever been able to guard each other effectively. Pop would never let Timmy guard Dirk straight up, even when Timmy was in his prime, and Dirk was still developing.

If you are talking about career accomplishments, then sure, although Duncan pretty much destroys the vast majority of players in NBA history in those.


I mean as an overall player, Duncan was a defensive beast and a monster on the offensive end in the post when he was in his prime. Dirk, while he has developed into an above average defender over the last few years, will never have the overall impact that Tim Duncan had on games. I will concede that on the offensive end he was better, but Duncan also had an extremely wide-array of post moves as well as a good midrange game. Nowitzki has an excellent high post game as well as some good moves around the basket. His ability to fadeaway as well as nail the three with regularity puts him above Duncan offensively imo.

He won't ever be remembered like Duncan, but he certainly deserves props because a lot of people had him pinned as a soft jumpshooter and he is a lot more versatile than most people give him credit for. Plus his efficiency is insane. :wow Wasn't he like 13-18 last night for 35 points? That's incredible.

[Solid D]

In what? H.O.R.S.E.? Regular Season? NBA Finals?


In Finals, it's Vaginald Poopshoosten
In Horse, it's Diapers Maghee
In Regular season, it's probably, Dingo Fillwhilly

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS4tVoSFmiLN_DiDtlm_guUWs8X9d4Wa HIONymGr6DBBmznIV1e5w

That boy...ah say, that boy ain't got a lick 'o sense.

[41times]

Right now and for the past few years it is Dirk. no doubt.
In the late 90's through 2005 it was Duncan. no doubt

[8FOR!3]

6-18 shooting in a facefucking proves just as much. Please, do go on.

LOL at shooting 2-7 and getting blown out by Memphis in January.

[Shank]

LOL at shooting 2-7 and getting blown out by Memphis in January.

Great retort. Well thought-out AND relevant.

[Shank]

LOL at shooting 2-7 and getting blown out by Memphis in January.

I also like how you had to dig for a game well over a month ago, one where Dirk was coming back from injury to make your sad little point.

[Solid D]

Tim Duncan

4× NBA Champion (1999, 2003, 2005, 2007) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif
3× NBA Finals MVP (1999, 2003, 2005) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

2× NBA Most Valuable Player (2002–2003) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

NBA Rookie of the Year (1998) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

13× NBA All-Star (1998, 2000–2011) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

9× All-NBA First Team (1998–2005, 2007) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

3× All-NBA Second Team (2006, 2008–2009)
All-NBA Third Team (2010)
8× All-Defensive First Team (1999–2003, 2005, 2007–2008) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

5× All-Defensive Second Team (1998, 2004, 2006, 2009–2010) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

NBA All-Rookie First Team (1998) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

NBA All-Star Game MVP (2000) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif


Dirk Nowitzki

NBA Most Valuable Player (2007)
10× NBA All-Star (2002–2011)
4× All-NBA First Team (2005–2007, 2009)
4× All-NBA Second Team (2002–2003, 2008, 2010) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

2× All-NBA Third Team (2001, 2004) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

NBA 3-Point Shootout Champion (2006) http://job-interview-answers.com/checkmark_small.gif

[awktalk]

Tiago Splitter. If it weren't for injuries, he would be in LA this weekend.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Gary Neal???? No.. wait.. Tigo Splitner????? No, wait.......

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Dirty and nobody comes close

[Obstructed_View]

Lacedarius Dunn.

[Phillip]

I mean as an overall player, Duncan was a defensive beast and a monster on the offensive end in the post when he was in his prime. Dirk, while he has developed into an above average defender over the last few years, will never have the overall impact that Tim Duncan had on games. I will concede that on the offensive end he was better, but Duncan also had an extremely wide-array of post moves as well as a good midrange game. Nowitzki has an excellent high post game as well as some good moves around the basket. His ability to fadeaway as well as nail the three with regularity puts him above Duncan offensively imo.

He won't ever be remembered like Duncan, but he certainly deserves props because a lot of people had him pinned as a soft jumpshooter and he is a lot more versatile than most people give him credit for. Plus his efficiency is insane. :wow Wasn't he like 13-18 last night for 35 points? That's incredible.

I agree Duncan was a more complete player than Dirk has ever been, but to say that he never had the overall impact on games that Timmy had is kinda unfair, because they both had incredible impacts on their teams, but in different manners. I guess if by overall impact, you mean on offense and defense, I agree. Duncan had an impact the way a typical big man should - drawing defensive attention with his fantastic post offense, and clogging the lane well on defense, but to a larger degree than most post men. However Dirk was a walking mismatch, arguably the biggest offensive mismatch machine in NBA history, along with Magic. The presence he brought to the offensive end was a presence that perhaps no player in NBA history has ever been able to bring, and often times is not very well appreciated. People just think he is a big guy who can shoot good, but it goes a lot further than that, as its impossible to find a single defender who can hold their own against him. Put a big guy on him, and the interior defense and rebounding suffers while Dirk can tire the hell out of them with his series of frustrating, guard-type moves. Put a small guy on him, then obviously that is a mis-match in itself, but it also causes a mismatch elsewhere on the court, either with a big guarding a small, or that the opponent has to play small-ball, which again, will hurt their interior defense and rebounding.

I'd say both of them had an impact that neither player was ever able to have (Duncan had a defensive presence Dirk could never have, while Dirk had an offensive presence that Duncan never had). Fortunately, (and this is no knock on him, because he still has to be able to seal the deal, which he obviously has done, 4 times, and is the greatest PF ever) Timmy has generally had a more well-constructed team and more well-coached team, which helped him be in a position where he could lead his team to multiple titles, while Dirk had talented teams, but teams that honestly were not-well built (all-offense, no-defense), and then by time his teams were constructed in a more balanced manner, he honestly just didn't have as much talent, and then of course there was the very controversial Finals series, in which Dirk was still pretty damn good, unfortunately Wade had the series of his life, and pulled it out in the end.

It sucks for Dirk that the series went the way it did. Dude has worked his ass off year after year to try to win a title, and people just sit around ignorantly calling him a soft choker. If the Mavs were to win a title, I would be more happy over the fact that Dirk finally got his, more than the fact that the won a championship, period. I don't think any ringless player in the NBA right now deserves a ring more than Dirk. I'd say Steve Nash is a close second. Both dudes play their heart out year after year, are class-acts of the NBA, and seem to be genuinely good dudes.


Either way, this is just my personal opinion on the matter. Not to say either one of ours is wrong, as our opinions are quite similar here. But I do think sometimes people underrate how Dirk affects a team, and how his offensive effect on games is so extreme, that it honestly can have a good effect defensively, by causing ridiculous mismatches, adding that extra element of length on the floor, and by being so frustrating to deal with offensively, that it baits teams into uncharacteristic shots/mistakes on the offensive end themselves.

[DAF86]

Great retort. Well thought-out AND relevant.

He learned from you.

[Shank]

He learned from you.

Really? That's what you come back with?

[TampaDude]

Best NBA player in Texas???

Right now: Dirk

All time: Duncan

[TampaDude]

I'll go with Jason Witten.

:lol Good one...true, the OP didn't specify NBA...

I'm not a Cowboys fan, but Witten is awesome, to be sure. :toast

[JR3]

Mavs suck - "Best player in Texas" and still can't win it all. hmm interesting.

[Solid D]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ROz81JW074k/TDuA2aVj1uI/AAAAAAAAEMY/G_JLVEgZRTE/s1600/vanCliburn.jpg

Van Cliburn

[maddnezz]

lol still going with that "choke artist" bullshit that lives in your feeble little minds
This Feeble boy :lobt: :lobt: :lobt: :lobt: .Try again with a better take . Hell your kid if you have one is prob better than you at something, like maybe dealing with reality? No diss just fact. When Tim and Dirk play a one on one best out of three match let me know son, hell I'll pay for your traveling expenses.

[TD 21]

Look, Mavs fans, I've got nothing against Nowitzki. I've been more than fair about his place in the game. I said earlier in the season he should be starting in the All-Star game, I've called him a no brainer future Hall-of-Famer and a top ten player of the past decade.

I'm just not going to pretend he's not without a boatload of flaws as a player, just because he scores lots of points. People nitpick myriad high scoring bigs like Stoudemire, Bosh, Randolph, etc. and even Hall-of-Famers like Robinson, Ewing, Malone, etc., because they are/were defenseless, or soft, or couldn't be the lead player on a championship team, etc. Yet all of that get's overlooked when it comes to Nowitzki, because he's white.

I'd still take Duncan over Nowitzki, because I value defense, shot blocking, rebounding, passing, screen setting, etc. Duncan's also had more of an offensive impact than Nowitzki. If you don't understand how, they you don't understand basketball.

[Shank]

This is all being taken out of context. The OP is likely referring to Barkley's comments about the 'best player in Texas right now'. So all your horsehit about 4 rings and career numbers obviously don't apply. But it's good to see you all mad and pissy. It doesn't take much to set off Spurfan.

[Hoops Czar]

I'd still take Duncan over Nowitzki, because I value defense, shot blocking, rebounding, passing, screen setting, etc. Duncan's also had more of an offensive impact than Nowitzki. If you don't understand how, they you don't understand basketball.

Well thats fine... Apparently, Dirk can't set a screen or grab a rebound, or pass the ball or tie his shoes. Yet, for the same reason Duncan doesn't score a lot of points because of the strong supporting cast, Chandler grabs the blocks and rebounds so Dirk can concentrate on Offense. And then you say Duncan has more of an impact than Dirk this year... take off your Spurs goggles. Have you not noticed how poorly the Mavs played when Dirk went down? Both the offense and defense struggled mightily. If you can't see that Dirk is the better player this year, then I don't know what to say...


I'm just not going to pretend he's not without a boatload of flaws as a player, just because he scores lots of points.

You mean Duncan is flawless?? You mean to tell me OLD is not a flaw?

[TD 21]

Well thats fine... Apparently, Dirk can't set a screen or grab a rebound, or pass the ball or tie his shoes. Yet, for the same reason Duncan doesn't score a lot of points because of the strong supporting cast, Chandler grabs the blocks and rebounds so Dirk can concentrate on Offense. And then you say Duncan has more of an impact than Dirk this year... take off your Spurs goggles. Have you not noticed how poorly the Mavs played when Dirk went down? Both the offense and defense struggled mightily. If you can't see that Dirk is the better player this year, then I don't know what to say...

I never said that. Just another message board clown that lacks basic reading comprehension. When I said Duncan has had more of an offensive impact, I meant career-wise.

The Mavs played poorly when Nowitzki went down because they lack players who can create their own shot and are explosive offensively to begin with. That was exacerbated with Butler and Beaubois also down. That says more about their roster composition than it does Nowitzki.

Nowitzki is the better range shooter and that's it. He does nothing else anywhere close to as well as Duncan. He's the worst screen setting big I've ever seen, is an average passer, his rebounding is verging on terrible, he's a decent team defender, but a weak man defender and he provides little shot blocking.

Who said Duncan was flawless? No player is flawless. Yeah, he's old, but so is Nowitzki. He still impacts the game in a lot more ways than Mr. One Dimensional, though.

[Hoops Czar]

I never said that. Just another message board clown that lacks basic reading comprehension. When I said Duncan has had more of an offensive impact, I meant career-wise.

The Mavs played poorly when Nowitzki went down because they lack players who can get their own shot and are explosive offensively to begin with. That was exacerbated with Butler and Beaubois also down. That says more about their roster composition than it does Nowitzki, though.

Nowitzki is the better range shooter and that's it. He does nothing else anywhere close to as well as Duncan. He's the worst screen setting big I've ever seen, is an average passer, his rebounding is verging on terrible, he's a decent team defender, but a weak man defender and he provides little shot blocking.

Reading comprehension to the message board flunky... The thread reads "Best player in Texas???" I guess to many simpletons, who can't accept cold hard facts, have to jump in with the "career wise" angle because you simply can't give credit where credit is due without mentioning TD.

Plain and simple, Duncan is a mere role player for the 1st place Spurs while Dirk is still the star for the second-place Mavs.

Don't make this about Beaubois, he was never in the equation. Dirk’s steadiness and reliability has made his constantly stellar play go under-appreciated. The minutes, boards, and steals are down slightly for Dirk this year because of all the help he has from his teammates, but his FG% is at a career high. The Mavs struggled because they lost their main playmaker, the No. 1 option in crunch time. Butler's injury heightened the concern, but was not the reason for the Mavs struggles.

Dirk averages 8 rebounds/year, hardly verging on terrible. You must be confusing Nowitski with Splitter.

Don't be confused by the few blocks Duncan receives in the paint. Maybe you should count the number of attempts has well. He gives up a ton of easy layups because he's out of position or he's just too slow. The numbers game can be very misleading. Have you not noticed how the paint is attacked on nearly every possession with or without Duncan in the game?

[TD 21]

Reading comprehension to the message board flunky... The thread reads "Best player in Texas???" I guess to many simpletons, who can't accept cold hard facts, have to jump in with the "career wise" angle because you simply can't give credit where credit is due without mentioning TD.

Plain and simple, Duncan is a mere role player for the 1st place Spurs while Dirk is still the star for the second-place Mavs.

Don't make this about Beaubois, he was never in the equation. Dirk’s steadiness and reliability has made his constantly stellar play go under-appreciated. The minutes, boards, and steals are down slightly for Dirk this year because of all the help he has from his teammates, but his FG% is at a career high. The Mavs struggled because they lost their main playmaker, the No. 1 option in crunch time. Butler's injury heightened the concern, but was not the reason for the Mavs struggles.

Dirk averages 8 rebounds/year, hardly verging on terrible. You must be confusing Nowitski with Splitter.

I said offensively he's had a bigger impact career-wise, in response to Phillip's claim that Nowitzki has. Other than that, nothing I've said has been career-wise. I'm talking right now, please tell me what Nowitzki does better than Duncan, other than range shooting?

The Mavs struggled mightily when Nowitzki went down because either their second or third best scorer and fourth best scorer were also down to begin with, so when Nowitzki went down, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Why is that so difficult to grasp? If you had an ounce of intelligence, you'd realize that's not a knock on him. It speaks more to how they're constructed. If Duncan went down, the Spurs would fall off dramatically defensively. Does that make him the Defensive Player of the Year or does it speak more to how they're constructed?

No chance Nowitzki is "under-appreciated". He's arguably the most over-appreciated player in the entire league. He pissed away a gift wrapped championship, has never won one despite annually having a top three payroll and is one dimensional, yet he's hailed as some all-time great. It's ridiculous. If he weren't white, he'd be scrutinized to no end, just like the examples I listed.

Who cares about average? That's primarily a product of height and minutes, not prowess. Rebound percentage is a much better indication of prowess. He's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. He's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki.

[Shank]

I said offensively he's had a bigger impact career-wise, in response to Phillip's claim that Nowitzki has. Other than that, nothing I've said has been career-wise. I'm talking right now, please tell me what Nowitzki does better than Duncan, other than range shooting?

The Mavs struggled mightily when Nowitzki went down because either their second or third best scorer and fourth best scorer were also down to begin with, so when Nowitzki went down, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Why is that so difficult to grasp? If you had an ounce of intelligence, you'd realize that's not a knock on him. It speaks more to how they're constructed. If Duncan went down, the Spurs would fall off dramatically defensively. Does that make him the Defensive Player of the Year or does it speak more to how they're constructed?

No chance Nowitzki is "under-appreciated". He's arguably the most over-appreciated player in the entire league. He pissed away a gift wrapped championship, has never won one despite annually having a top three payroll and is one dimensional, yet he's hailed as some all-time great. It's ridiculous. If he weren't white, he'd be scrutinized to no end, just like the examples I listed.

Who cares about average? That's primarily a product of height and minutes, not prowess. Rebound percentage is a much better indication of prowess. He's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. He's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki.

Classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees.

[maddnezz]

This is all being taken out of context. The OP is likely referring to Barkley's comments about the 'best player in Texas right now'. So all your horsehit about 4 rings and career numbers obviously don't apply. But it's good to see you all mad and pissy. It doesn't take much to set off Spurfan.And yet your still here in spurtalk like a crackfiend in a crackhouse. The only solace you get is to come here and TRY to piss someone off. Sad little mav fan. I'd like to root for your team cause it's from the grear state of TEXAS but some of the fans with your mentality make it really hard. I kinda wish you would of beat the Heat so we could boast as the only state in history with 3 pro basketball teams that all had a championship. But remember Dirk aint gonna win a ring by himself so you might wanna go talk to Mr. Cuban bout that one buddy. And I feel for you in your support for your team, we had a lot of years in SA when big Dave didnt win shit! So maybe Dirk needs to pull a Lebron and move on. Just a thought, :lol

[ezau]

destroy? Not quite. I think they both pretty much are a deadlock going head to head at their best. Both of them have extremely unique skill-sets, and neither have ever been able to guard each other effectively. Pop would never let timmy guard dirk straight up, even when timmy was in his prime, and dirk was still developing.

If you are talking about career accomplishments, then sure, although duncan pretty much destroys the vast majority of players in nba history in those.

4>0

[Shank]

And yet your still here in spurtalk like a crackfiend in a crackhouse. The only solace you get is to come here and TRY to piss someone off. Sad little mav fan. I'd like to root for your team cause it's from the grear state of TEXAS but some of the fans with your mentality make it really hard. I kinda wish you would of beat the Heat so we could boast as the only state in history with 3 pro basketball teams that all had a championship. But remember Dirk aint gonna win a ring by himself so you might wanna go talk to Mr. Cuban bout that one buddy. And I feel for you in your support for your team, we had a lot of years in SA when big Dave didnt win shit! So maybe Dirk needs to pull a Lebron and move on. Just a thought, :lol

I'm not going to read all that. The first sentence alone told me it was going to be the same cliche bullshit that I've been reading for over 5 years. Try to come with something new. Dig?

[Spurologist]

We all know the answer sons...no need to hurt feelings. God bless

:elephant

whatever helps you sleep better at night

:lmao

http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v62/68/42/3103453/n3103453_31171382_7557.jpg

[koriwhat]

Nowitzki is the best right now. He is one of the hardest players to defend in the history of the game. I have to say that when he is on he can not be stopped. How can you defend a fadeaway jumper from a 6'11" guy?

In his prime Duncan. #2 player in Texas is Ginobili.

gotta love that off-arm and step back over and over again with no calls. just sayin'.

[Phillip]

his rebounding is verging on terrible

his rebounding is not nearly as bad as you say. im not sure many, if any players in the NBA have better timing on their rebounds than Dirk does. its extremely rare to see him mistime a rebound, and because of that, he very frequently is able to snag rebounds away from guys who have far more athletic ability and SHOULD be getting the rebounds, like Dwight Howard, KG, etc...

the reason why Dirk has never had great rebounding totals, is because he doesnt get very many offensive rebounds, and that is mainly due to his offensive playing style. he plays a lot on the perimeter and high post, and the majority of the offense is ran through him out there, especially since having him on the perimeter usually means a big man is being taken out of the middle, allowing other guys to more easily get rebounds and get into the lane for easier buckets.

fact is, on the defensive glass, dirk has always been solid at DRPG, with very respectable defensive rebound % numbers. i believe for his career he snags around 22% of the available defensive rebounds when on the floor. compare it to Pau Gasol, who is commonly known as a very solid rebounder, Dirk statistically is a considerably superior defensive rebounder. To say that Dirk is on the verge of being a "terrible" rebounder is quite misinformed, which isnt something i wouldnt expect from you, considering your constant ignorance about Dirk.

[Phillip]

:cry

[InRareForm]

http://www.rap-wallpapers.com/data/media/40/paul_wall_texas_baby.jpg

[InRareForm]

http://www.texansgab.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Johnson-241x300.jpg

[Hoops Czar]

I said offensively he's had a bigger impact career-wise, in response to Phillip's claim that Nowitzki has. Other than that, nothing I've said has been career-wise. I'm talking right now, please tell me what Nowitzki does better than Duncan, other than range shooting?

The Mavs struggled mightily when Nowitzki went down because either their second or third best scorer and fourth best scorer were also down to begin with, so when Nowitzki went down, it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Why is that so difficult to grasp? If you had an ounce of intelligence, you'd realize that's not a knock on him. It speaks more to how they're constructed. If Duncan went down, the Spurs would fall off dramatically defensively. Does that make him the Defensive Player of the Year or does it speak more to how they're constructed?

No chance Nowitzki is "under-appreciated". He's arguably the most over-appreciated player in the entire league. He pissed away a gift wrapped championship, has never won one despite annually having a top three payroll and is one dimensional, yet he's hailed as some all-time great. It's ridiculous. If he weren't white, he'd be scrutinized to no end, just like the examples I listed.

Who cares about average? That's primarily a product of height and minutes, not prowess. Rebound percentage is a much better indication of prowess. He's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. He's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki.


So far this season, no team has depended more on one player than the Mavs have with Nowitzki. The numbers are staggering. Even if we exclude the fact that Dirk had a league-high 27.0 plus-minus differential prior to his injury, when Nowitzki's in the game, the Mavs had outscored their opponent by 13.3 points per 48 minutes. When he was out, the Mavs got outscored by 13.7 points per 48 minutes. That's the largest swing for any player with enough minutes to matter in the league. The fact that the Mavs were mediocre without Nowitzki is only surprising to those who are delusional or in denial. While Duncan still produces, the Spurs can afford to rest him games without it affecting the team in the standings.

Butler is Not the impact player you think he is. Two of those seven losses came with Butler in the lineup. Does it still not surprise that the Mavs are still without Butler and they've polished off 14 of their last 15? Are you going to somehow make this about the return of Roddy B. who hasn't played long enough to make a serious impact and Peja who's only made an impact in 1 of his 6 games played? Your right... Its not hard to grasp but its easy to deny.

You talk about Nowitski pissing away a championship in 2006? Basketball is a team sport. No one player pisses away a championship. Dirk doesn't have GM responsibilities. He has no control over payroll and doesn't hand pick his teammates. Brian Cashman has only one championship under his watchful eye and yet has the highest payroll in baseball year in and year out. Putting together a competent team is half the battle, but that's not Dirk's fight. If Duncan didn't have Ginobili, Parker, or the Admiral to lean on, I wonder how many Championships TD would have.... And you talk about all-time greats, Stockton and Malone never won a championship, yet they're hailed as two of the all-time greats. And I'll leave Lebron out of this.

HOLY BLEEPING SH!T!!!! That wasn't suppose to be taken seriously. Your going to seriously compare Splitter's garbage time production to that of Dirk. Splitter with his smurf hands (which causes the ball to slip out of his grasp on a regular basis) gets bounced around like a rag doll and arguably over-matched in almost every situation. Splitter is NOT a good rebounder nor will he ever be. He may one day become a solid role player but that's likely his ceiling. Like you said, thank god he's white or he would undoubtedly be receiving the Mahimni treatment.

Nobody is denying Duncan's career achievements... Career-wise Duncan has the edge, but this year, its clearly Nowitski.

[G-Dawgg]

Dirk is NOT the best player in Texas. He only plays half the game of basketball... he may be the best "offensive player", but that wasn't the question that you asked. You asked who is "the BEST player". That would be Manu Ginobili.

[maddnezz]

I'm not going to read all that. The first sentence alone told me it was going to be the same cliche bullshit that I've been reading for over 5 years. Try to come with something new. Dig?
So I guess the sky is green and blue? move along sir move along..........

[J_Paco]

One of five players in NBA history to average 25-10 in the post season. Yeah, I guess that makes you a one dimensional choke artist. One bad series in 10 years of post season play does not make someone a choke artist.

This thread is stupid and pointless. But, did Dirk win a championship during any of his playoff runs???? Well, then that means he's a choke-artist in most people's opinions. Other than a couple series against the Spurs and Suns, Dirk usually shrivels up like a raisin in the sun during winning time. He can knock'em down during the regular season, though.


Look, Mavs fans, I've got nothing against Nowitzki. I've been more than fair about his place in the game. I said earlier in the season he should be starting in the All-Star game, I've called him a no brainer future Hall-of-Famer and a top ten player of the past decade.

I'm just not going to pretend he's not without a boatload of flaws as a player, just because he scores lots of points. People nitpick myriad high scoring bigs like Stoudemire, Bosh, Randolph, etc. and even Hall-of-Famers like Robinson, Ewing, Malone, etc., because they are/were defenseless, or soft, or couldn't be the lead player on a championship team, etc. Yet all of that get's overlooked when it comes to Nowitzki, because he's white.

I'd still take Duncan over Nowitzki, because I value defense, shot blocking, rebounding, passing, screen setting, etc. Duncan's also had more of an offensive impact than Nowitzki. If you don't understand how, they you don't understand basketball.

+1000


You talk about Nowitski pissing away a championship in 2006? Basketball is a team sport. No one player pisses away a championship. Dirk doesn't have GM responsibilities. He has no control over payroll and doesn't hand pick his teammates. Brian Cashman has only one championship under his watchful eye and yet has the highest payroll in baseball year in and year out. Putting together a competent team is half the battle, but that's not Dirk's fight. If Duncan didn't have Ginobili, Parker, or the Admiral to lean on, I wonder how many Championships TD would have.... And you talk about all-time greats, Stockton and Malone never won a championship, yet they're hailed as two of the all-time greats. And I'll leave Lebron out of this.

I don't know if you noticed between writing all that tripe, but Duncan has won a championship while being the only elite player on a title team. Or do you really believe that he "leaned" on a rookie Ginobili, 2nd-year Parker and declining Robinson in '03? The Spurs are a smaller market team and don't have the financial resources that Dallas/Cuban have, yet they've used shrewd moves in the draft and free-agency to surround Duncan with talent. Nowitzki has had plenty of talented teammates like Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Caron Butler and an owner that is willing to spend. Yet, one excuse after another is used when they haven't gotten it done. The two constants throughout the years have been Dirk and Cuban.

[Hoops Czar]

I don't know if you noticed between writing all that tripe, but Duncan has won a championship while being the only elite player on a title team. Or do you really believe that he "leaned" on a rookie Ginobili, 2nd-year Parker and declining Robinson in '03? The Spurs are a smaller market team and don't have the financial resources that Dallas/Cuban have, yet they've used shrewd moves in the draft and free-agency to surround Duncan with talent. Nowitzki has had plenty of talented teammates like Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Caron Butler and an owner that is willing to spend. Yet, one excuse after another is used when they haven't gotten it done. The two constants throughout the years have been Dirk and Cuban.

A Spurs fan who doesn't even recognize Jackson or Bowen as part of the 2003 team is pretty insulting or uneducated. Tony Parker was a huge addition that year and Gino provided a spark off the bench. I think you fail to see the irony of your post. Team basketball wins championships not a couple of superstars and a bunch of bimbo's filling out the roster. Those players you mentioned as talented players are barely that when donning a Mavs uni. Nash didn't take off until he was in Pho; Jamison and Butler are decent scorers and nothing more. None of those aforementioned player played a lick of defense. And with the exception of Finley, they're all still looking for there first championship.... Imagine that.

[J_Paco]

A Spurs fan who doesn't even recognize Jackson or Bowen as part of the 2003 team is pretty insulting or uneducated. Tony Parker was a huge addition that year and Gino provided a spark off the bench. I think you fail to see the irony of your post. Team basketball wins championships not a couple of superstars and a bunch of bimbo's filling out the roster. Those players you mentioned as talented players are barely that when donning a Mavs uni. Nash didn't take off until he was in Pho; Jamison and Butler are decent scorers and nothing more. None of those aforementioned player played a lick of defense. And with the exception of Finley, they're all still looking for there first championship.... Imagine that.

Yeah, Bruce and S-Jax were lighting it up for that title team. How many points did they average respectively, again? Oh, a combined 19 points per game between them was a devastating amount. That team won the championship because Duncan played the best season of his career, Popovich did his best coaching job ever and luck/good fortune was on their side throughout the season/playoffs. The role-players and Robinson did their part, but Duncan was the catalyst.

Nowtizki has played on plenty of talented and balanced teams, but they've always come up short. People always avoid putting the blame directly on his shoulders or deflect it by saying it's Cuban or his teammates fault. Shit, we've even seen Dirk blame his teammates during games and press conferences. He's not built to lead a team to a championship as the number one guy, but people can continue to delude themselves into believing he is.

[UnWantedTheory]

Dirk is easily the best player in Texas at the moment. For how much longer, I am not sure.

In regards to this TD vs. Dirk shit, I will say this for both of their careers...If you tell Tim that he needs to get 20 & 10 to win the game, he gets 25 & 14. If you tell Dirk he needs 20 & 10, he gets you 20 & 10. I happen to respect Dirk, that's just the way I see it.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

I see your Jason Witten, jjktkk, and I raise you an Andre Johnson (and yes, I'm a Cowboys fan)

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Dirk is NOT the best player in Texas. He only plays half the game of basketball... he may be the best "offensive player", but that wasn't the question that you asked. You asked who is "the BEST player". That would be Manu Ginobili.

:lmao

[rascal]

Dirk is NOT the best player in Texas. He only plays half the game of basketball... he may be the best "offensive player", but that wasn't the question that you asked. You asked who is "the BEST player". That would be Manu Ginobili.

Dirk> Ginobili
only homer spur fans would think otherwise

[rascal]

Manu Ginobili is the greatest player in the state of Texas.

:lol

[Leetonidas]

I agree Duncan was a more complete player than Dirk has ever been, but to say that he never had the overall impact on games that Timmy had is kinda unfair, because they both had incredible impacts on their teams, but in different manners. I guess if by overall impact, you mean on offense and defense, I agree. Duncan had an impact the way a typical big man should - drawing defensive attention with his fantastic post offense, and clogging the lane well on defense, but to a larger degree than most post men. However Dirk was a walking mismatch, arguably the biggest offensive mismatch machine in NBA history, along with Magic. The presence he brought to the offensive end was a presence that perhaps no player in NBA history has ever been able to bring, and often times is not very well appreciated. People just think he is a big guy who can shoot good, but it goes a lot further than that, as its impossible to find a single defender who can hold their own against him. Put a big guy on him, and the interior defense and rebounding suffers while Dirk can tire the hell out of them with his series of frustrating, guard-type moves. Put a small guy on him, then obviously that is a mis-match in itself, but it also causes a mismatch elsewhere on the court, either with a big guarding a small, or that the opponent has to play small-ball, which again, will hurt their interior defense and rebounding.

I'd say both of them had an impact that neither player was ever able to have (Duncan had a defensive presence Dirk could never have, while Dirk had an offensive presence that Duncan never had). Fortunately, (and this is no knock on him, because he still has to be able to seal the deal, which he obviously has done, 4 times, and is the greatest PF ever) Timmy has generally had a more well-constructed team and more well-coached team, which helped him be in a position where he could lead his team to multiple titles, while Dirk had talented teams, but teams that honestly were not-well built (all-offense, no-defense), and then by time his teams were constructed in a more balanced manner, he honestly just didn't have as much talent, and then of course there was the very controversial Finals series, in which Dirk was still pretty damn good, unfortunately Wade had the series of his life, and pulled it out in the end.

It sucks for Dirk that the series went the way it did. Dude has worked his ass off year after year to try to win a title, and people just sit around ignorantly calling him a soft choker. If the Mavs were to win a title, I would be more happy over the fact that Dirk finally got his, more than the fact that the won a championship, period. I don't think any ringless player in the NBA right now deserves a ring more than Dirk. I'd say Steve Nash is a close second. Both dudes play their heart out year after year, are class-acts of the NBA, and seem to be genuinely good dudes.


Either way, this is just my personal opinion on the matter. Not to say either one of ours is wrong, as our opinions are quite similar here. But I do think sometimes people underrate how Dirk affects a team, and how his offensive effect on games is so extreme, that it honestly can have a good effect defensively, by causing ridiculous mismatches, adding that extra element of length on the floor, and by being so frustrating to deal with offensively, that it baits teams into uncharacteristic shots/mistakes on the offensive end themselves.

:tu

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there. I give him credit for the 2006 Finals. He's a champ in my eyes for that year, because anyone could see how lopsided the officiating was, not to mention his team sucked hard and lol Josh Howard timeout.

It really sucks that he bricked those free throws though. I know it's not entirely his fault his team lost because he was the only reason they were in a position to win but I imagine it's like Manu's foul...you think "fuck man what the fuck is wrong with you?!?!?" but you give him a pass because he got you there in the first place and it shouldn't have even come down to that.

So yeah, Dirk is definitely the best European baller ever in the NBA and definitely one of the most underrated players ever. You're right though, having Don Nelson as a coach all those years ago was probably extremely detrimental to those Maverick teams. They had a big three and then guys like Van Exel who was a beast in the playoffs for them. Nelson just never gave a shit about defense.

[Fpoonsie]

Dirk is easily the best player in Texas at the moment. For how much longer, I am not sure.

In regards to this TD vs. Dirk shit, I will say this for both of their careers...If you tell Tim that he needs to get 20 & 10 to win the game, he gets 25 & 14. If you tell Dirk he needs 20 & 10, he gets you 20 & 10. I happen to respect Dirk, that is just the way I see it. Never quite enough.

This argument doesn't make sense. If both players "need" to get a certain number of points/rebounds, and both players get at least that, how is it "not quite enough" for 1 of the 2?

If you're trying to say that one of two players consistently gets "more than enough", then you need to re-think your argument...

[Blackjack]

So we're saying best player in Texas not named Matt Bonner?

[UnWantedTheory]

This argument doesn't make sense. If both players "need" to get a certain number of points/rebounds, and both players get at least that, how is it "not quite enough" for 1 of the 2?

If you're trying to say that one of two players consistently gets "more than enough", then you need to re-think your argument...
First off, it isn't an argument, it's an opinion. That is all. Secondly, thats not at all what I was trying to say.

[Fpoonsie]

First off, it isn't an argument, it's an opinion. That is all. Secondly, thats not at all what I was trying to say.

Ok, then what were you trying to say? What was your "opinion"?

[baseline bum]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_t4V0SqZ8TY0/TGC0WXgr9KI/AAAAAAAAAQU/1KdY4QLGye4/s1600/rodrigue-beaubois.jpg

[UnWantedTheory]

Just so I don't have to type a long ass paragraph explaining myself, I will just say I have more faith in Duncan's ability to go the extra mile & deliver a W.

[TD 21]

Shank, your response is akin to: "He's right. Which is why I'm not going to get into or debate any actual point made. But because I'm a defensive fan boy and I'm annoyed that he's exposed Nowitzki as the overrated, one dimensional player that he is, I've got to reply with something, to pretend as if he doesn't know what he's talking about".

Phillip, the numbers don't lie and unlike you, they have no bias; they just present the facts. Nowitzki corrals 11.2%, T-119th. That's terrible for someone 7-0, whether he plays in the paint on not. Garnett plays plenty in the mid post, yet he's a far better rebounder. Don't give me this crap about "athletic ability", when Garnett is going on 35. Whether you want to admit it or not, Nowitzki is verging on being a terrible rebounder and that's being generous.

Hoops Czar, it's clear you lack basic reading comprehension, as you've failed twice now to grasp a simple point. I'll say it one more time, this time in bold (third times a charm?): The main reason the Mavs struggled without Nowitzki is because either their second or third best scorer and their fourth best scorer were already injured when he got injured. That left them perilously thin in terms of shot creation and left them with no one who's worthy of significant attention from defenses. It also left them without a rotation quality PF. That's not a knock on Nowitzki, though, it just speaks to their composition. I notice you failed to answer my question. Not surprising, since you probably failed to grasp the analogy.

I didn't overstate Butler's impact and I never made this about Beaubois. Learn to read.

The '06 chokejob falls squarely on Nowitzki's shoulders, just like it would have any lead player, particularly when they're of the elite variety (which he supposedly is). There's no excuse for his team, which was on the verge of a 3-0 Finals lead, to inexplicably blow the series and lose four straight to a clearly inferior team.

Don't put Duncan and Nowitzki in the same category. Duncan carried a ridiculous load from 01-05. How quickly people forget how little help he had. He won two titles without a go-to perimeter player and the second one was without a second star period and went through a three-time defending champ to do it. He's also accomplished what he has with his team rarely exceeding the tax.

The numbers don't lie. Nowitzki's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. Splitter's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki. I never said Splitter is a good rebounder, though and I also never said thank god he's white, or he'd be receiving the Mahinmi treatment. More made up garbage.

Another question evaded. I didn't ask you who was better currently between Duncan and Nowitzki, I asked you what Nowitzki did better than Duncan currently, besides range shooting?

[Muser]

Okay that's just fucking retarded. Dirk is a much better rebounder than Splitter.

Why can't dumbass spurfan respect Dirk? The guy is a once in a generation player. Going to be a sad day when he hangs 'em up.

[Hoops Czar]

Hoops Czar, it's clear you lack basic reading comprehension, as you've failed twice now to grasp a simple point. I'll say it one more time, this time in bold (third times a charm?): The main reason the Mavs struggled without Nowitzki is because either their second or third best scorer and their fourth best scorer were already injured when he got injured. That left them perilously thin in terms of shot creation and left them with no one who's worthy of significant attention from defenses. It also left them without a rotation quality PF. That's not a knock on Nowitzki, though, it just speaks to their composition. I notice you failed to answer my question. Not surprising, since you probably failed to grasp the analogy.

I didn't overstate Butler's impact and I never made this about Beaubois. Learn to read.

Its not reading comprehension, its your erroneously faulty analogy that makes no sense. The Mavs were at full strength when Dirk went down minus Roddy. Let me spell it out for you... The second leading scorer was Jason Terry (15.9); third leading scorer Caron Butler (15.0); fourth leading scorer Shawn Marion (11.6). What's not to understand? They were all present and accounted for when Dirk went down. The Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When he's out, the offense breaks down. Dirk had a league-high 27.0 plus-minus differential prior to his injury, when Nowitzki's in the game, the Mavs had outscored their opponent by 13.3 points per 48 minutes. When he was out, the Mavs got outscored by 13.7 points per 48 minutes. That's the largest swing for any one player in the league. So, who is this phantom second and fourth best scorer already injured you speak of? I truly see a disconnect but its not on this end. Help me help you...

With Dirk back in the fold and their third leading scoring out of the mix, the Mavs have rattled off 14 of their last 15. Coincidence anyone?


The '06 chokejob falls squarely on Nowitzki's shoulders, just like it would have any lead player, particularly when they're of the elite variety (which he supposedly is). There's no excuse for his team, which was on the verge of a 3-0 Finals lead, to inexplicably blow the series and lose four straight to a clearly inferior team.

In order for their to be a choke, the choker must be the favored. If your going top scorn Nowitzki for the 2006 Finals choke job, you must hold Duncan accountable for the Western Conference Semis choke job against these same Mavs eventhough it was Ginobili's careless foul on Nowitzki in the closing seconds of regulation that ultimately propelled Dallas to the WCF's. the Spurs were the favorites to win the title.

All told, Dallas has only two choke jobs (2006 Finals, 2007) in the Dirk era which ironically matches the Spurs in total (2004, 2006). I personally don't blame one particular player for a choke. Basketball is a team sport. You win as a team and lose as a team.


Don't put Duncan and Nowitzki in the same category. Duncan carried a ridiculous load from 01-05. How quickly people forget how little help he had. He won two titles without a go-to perimeter player and the second one was without a second star period and went through a three-time defending champ to do it. He's also accomplished what he has with his team rarely exceeding the tax.

Your placing too much value on the superstar. I'm not questioning one of the greatest power forwards ever to grace this game. However, you put less emphasis on the team and more onto the player. In 2003, he had plenty of support with Stephen Jackson and manu ginobili, who could create their own shots and were always a threat to drop long range bombs and lets not exclude the cutting and slashing guard play from Tony Parker and Speedy Claxton. They also had one of the best one-on-one defenders in the NBA in Bowen who could also knock down the corner three. All that and I didn't even mention The Admiral, Malik Rose or Steve Kerr. One might say that was the deepest Spurs roster in the Duncan Era... short on Super Stars but plenty of balance.

In 2005, the spurs relied on balance from a prine TP and Manu along with a steady dose of Duncan. They still had the leagues best defender in Bowen, and two long range bombers in B. Barry and Robert Horry. Again, not discounting Duncan's importance in any way, but the chemistry and composition was much better than anything the Mavs could account for in the Dirk era.

I can't comment on the Tax because the Spurs don't have Cuban's money to fall back on, but the big three (primarily Duncan and Manu) did restructure their contracts to keep the core together. Until this year, The Mavs have relied heavily on offense to get them that coveted championship, but similarly to the Phoenix Suns, lack of Defense would lead to their ultimate demise. Dallas has never had a defender like Tyson Chandler so it will be interesting to see how things shake out come playoff time. But again to restate... Dirk doesn't hand pick his teammates. He has no control over the roster. Its up to Mark Cuban to find the right mix of players that will deliver a championship to D-Town.


The numbers don't lie. Nowitzki's at 11.2%, good for T-119th. Splitter's at 14.0, good for 73rd. Splitter's clearly a superior rebounder to Nowitzki. I never said Splitter is a good rebounder, though and I also never said thank god he's white, or he'd be receiving the Mahinmi treatment. More made up garbage.

When you make statements like this, I envision Bobo the clown sitting on the toilet reading the funnies. Let me show you how statistical manipulation works.... a quick statistical comparison between Tiago Splitter and Ian Mahimni (per 36 minutes).

.......................FG%....ORB....DRB....TRB... .AST....STL....BLK...PPG
Tiago Splitter.....509......3.0......5.8.....8.8....1.4. .....1.2....0.9....13.3

Ian Mahimni.......608.....3.3......7.0.....10.3...0.7. .....0.7...1.6.....19.1

One can surmise by looking at the raw data that Mahimni is by far and away the better overall player and 3 years younger to boot. Although, that's not the belief by many.

So, when you tell me that Splitter is by far and away a better rebounder than Nowitzki, you understand why I can't help but laugh. I don't expect Splitter's garbage time production to trump Nowitski's because you found a statistic that says it to be true. Just a hunch, but if you run through that stat again and select the option "qualified players", Splitter's name would disappear.


Another question evaded. I didn't ask you who was better currently between Duncan and Nowitzki, I asked you what Nowitzki did better than Duncan currently, besides range shooting?

I don't believe I dodged the question. I think your confusing yourself or misinterpreting the thread entitled "Best payer in Texas?". This is a tug-a-war between offense and defense...pick your preference. Dirk is all things offense while TD is all things defense. Nowitzki leads in PPG, FG%, 3P-FG%, FT%, eFG%, TOV%, USG%, and ORtg%. Duncan conversely, leads in all the major defensive categories. However, i will point out that TWS (total win shares), and WS/48 (win shares/ 48 minutes), which are the number of wins contributed by the player that combines both offensive and defensive win shares gives a decided advantage to Nowitzki:

..................Dirk Nowitzki................Tim Duncan
Win Shares.........7.1..............................5. 7
Win Shares/48....210..............................171

All this means is Dirk Nowitzki is more valuable to his team than Duncan. In other words, If Duncan went down with an injury, the Spurs could still survive until Duncan returns. This isn't to minimizing Duncans value or effectiveness to the Spurs, make no mistake about it, no Duncan in the playoffs means no championship. Conversely, if Dirk went down for an extended period of time, Dallas would be hit much harder because they would lack the depth and dependency that Dirk brings to the table. The entire Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When Dirk is out, the Mavs don't have a reliable no. 2. That may be part of the Mav's problem. They rely too heavily on one player to shoulder the load. It's why they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize.

Career wise, Duncan is the better player, but Nowitzki is clearly having the better season.

[wildbill2u]

I haven't seen anything about another quality that a great player brings to the game.

What about the ability--and willingness--to make his teammates better by using his skills in team offense and team defense?

Duncan, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and a few other current superstars use that ability as part of their game. You expect it from premier point guards, not so much from big men.

[wildbill2u]

How about an answer to this question to settle this great discussion.

Situation: 7th Game of the NBA finals. 10 seconds to go. Behind by 2 points. The player who gets the ball must be able to anticipate and play against a double team from the opposing team's best defenders, make the decision to shoot from the perimeter for 3, drive if that's what they give you, pass to an open teammate, make a foul shot if necessary to win the game.

What player gets the ball? When we were kids, playing in the gym or on the driveway, it was us. But today, in the real world, who is the MAN?

That's the best player in Texas.

[Hoops Czar]

How about an answer to this question to settle this great discussion.

Situation: 7th Game of the NBA finals. 10 seconds to go. Behind by 2 points. The player who gets the ball must be able to anticipate and play against a double team from the opposing team's best defenders, make the decision to shoot from the perimeter for 3, drive if that's what they give you, pass to an open teammate, make a foul shot if necessary to win the game.

What player gets the ball? When we were kids, playing in the gym or on the driveway, it was us. But today, in the real world, who is the MAN?

That's the best player in Texas.

In the past, I would say Duncan . But in the here and now, eventhough he's going through a rough patch, Gino with his ability to create and defer to the open shooter and his ability to knock down free throws. The balls got to be in his hands.

[TD 21]

Muser, I have respect for his game. Unlike the vast majority, I have the proper respect and not an inflated amount. And the numbers aren't "retarded". They don't lie and they have no biases.


Its not reading comprehension, its your erroneously faulty analogy that makes no sense. The Mavs were at full strength when Dirk went down minus Roddy. Let me spell it out for you... The second leading scorer was Jason Terry (15.9); third leading scorer Caron Butler (15.0); fourth leading scorer Shawn Marion (11.6). What's not to understand? They were all present and accounted for when Dirk went down. The Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When he's out, the offense breaks down. Dirk had a league-high 27.0 plus-minus differential prior to his injury, when Nowitzki's in the game, the Mavs had outscored their opponent by 13.3 points per 48 minutes. When he was out, the Mavs got outscored by 13.7 points per 48 minutes. That's the largest swing for any one player in the league. So, who is this phantom second and fourth best scorer already injured you speak of? I truly see a disconnect but its not on this end. Help me help you...

With Dirk back in the fold and their third leading scoring out of the mix, the Mavs have rattled off 14 of their last 15. Coincidence anyone?

It's reading comprehension. Not long after Nowitzki went down, so too did Butler. Beaubois was already out. They're the third and fourth scorers I'm referring to. So, having all three out is what ground their offense to a halt. Again I'll say, though, that that's not a knock on Nowitzki and speaks more to the composition of their roster.


In order for their to be a choke, the choker must be the favored. If your going top scorn Nowitzki for the 2006 Finals choke job, you must hold Duncan accountable for the Western Conference Semis choke job against these same Mavs eventhough it was Ginobili's careless foul on Nowitzki in the closing seconds of regulation that ultimately propelled Dallas to the WCF's. the Spurs were the favorites to win the title.

All told, Dallas has only two choke jobs (2006 Finals, 2007) in the Dirk era which ironically matches the Spurs in total (2004, 2006). I personally don't blame one particular player for a choke. Basketball is a team sport. You win as a team and lose as a team. The Mavs were favored to win the '06 Finals, as they should have been. They had a better team and they had home court. The only thing they didn't have was the best player in the series (despite many thinking they did going in). How did Duncan choke in that series? He played one of the greatest series in recent memory. It took beyond awful officiating and a player on his own team costing his team the series. What exactly did you want Duncan to do about either? Duncan is one of the most accomplished, proven players in the history of the game. His legacy and reputation are intact. Nowitzki is a career loser, who never got it done when it mattered most and if he weren't white, he'd never live his numerous failures down.


Your placing too much value on the superstar. I'm not questioning one of the greatest power forwards ever to grace this game. However, you put less emphasis on the team and more onto the player. In 2003, he had plenty of support with Stephen Jackson and manu ginobili, who could create their own shots and were always a threat to drop long range bombs and lets not exclude the cutting and slashing guard play from Tony Parker and Speedy Claxton. They also had one of the best one-on-one defenders in the NBA in Bowen who could also knock down the corner three. All that and I didn't even mention The Admiral, Malik Rose or Steve Kerr. One might say that was the deepest Spurs roster in the Duncan Era... short on Super Stars but plenty of balance.

In 2005, the spurs relied on balance from a prine TP and Manu along with a steady dose of Duncan. They still had the leagues best defender in Bowen, and two long range bombers in B. Barry and Robert Horry. Again, not discounting Duncan's importance in any way, but the chemistry and composition was much better than anything the Mavs could account for in the Dirk era.

I can't comment on the Tax because the Spurs don't have Cuban's money to fall back on, but the big three (primarily Duncan and Manu) did restructure their contracts to keep the core together. Until this year, The Mavs have relied heavily on offense to get them that coveted championship, but similarly to the Phoenix Suns, lack of Defense would lead to their ultimate demise. Dallas has never had a defender like Tyson Chandler so it will be interesting to see how things shake out come playoff time. But again to restate... Dirk doesn't hand pick his teammates. He has no control over the roster. Its up to Mark Cuban to find the right mix of players that will deliver a championship to D-Town.
He had a team full of role players in '03. None of those guys were legit second stars, especially not for a championship team. It's easy to look back at the names and go "he had plenty of help", but anyone who watched the team game in, game out back then knows better.

Parker was not in his prime in '05. In fact, he struggled mightily in the '05 Finals. The only reason the Spurs were better than the Mavs back then was because they had the best player on the planet, who could do virtually anything. The Mavs had a one dimensional choke artist, who couldn't carry them to the promised land.

The Spurs have rarely paid the tax and when they have, they haven't exceeded it by $ 15 or 20 million, like the Mavs do annually. Of course the Mavs have had to rely heavily on offense, because they had a 7-footer on the back line who played like a 6-5 guy. An all too familiar fate is awaiting the Mavs: 2nd round exit, this time at the hands of the Lakers. When will people ever learn that a team with Nowitzki as their best player can't win a championship? It's been made abundantly clear, yet every season hope springs eternal and their past is forgotten. People have selective amnesia when it comes to the Mavs. Cuban has spent oodles of cash; don't blame him. Blame his sorry excuse for a 7-footer, who hasn't been able to put them over the top.


I don't believe I dodged the question. I think your confusing yourself or misinterpreting the thread entitled "Best payer in Texas?". This is a tug-a-war between offense and defense...pick your preference. Dirk is all things offense while TD is all things defense. Nowitzki leads in PPG, FG%, 3P-FG%, FT%, eFG%, TOV%, USG%, and ORtg%. Duncan conversely, leads in all the major defensive categories. However, i will point out that TWS (total win shares), and WS/48 (win shares/ 48 minutes), which are the number of wins contributed by the player that combines both offensive and defensive win shares gives a decided advantage to Nowitzki:

..................Dirk Nowitzki................Tim Duncan
Win Shares.........7.1..............................5. 7
Win Shares/48....210..............................171

All this means is Dirk Nowitzki is more valuable to his team than Duncan. In other words, If Duncan went down with an injury, the Spurs could still survive until Duncan returns. This isn't to minimizing Duncans value or effectiveness to the Spurs, make no mistake about it, no Duncan in the playoffs means no championship. Conversely, if Dirk went down for an extended period of time, Dallas would be hit much harder because they would lack the depth and dependency that Dirk brings to the table. The entire Dallas offense runs through Dirk. When Dirk is out, the Mavs don't have a reliable no. 2. That may be part of the Mav's problem. They rely too heavily on one player to shoulder the load. It's why they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize.

Career wise, Duncan is the better player, but Nowitzki is clearly having the better season.You've dodged it multiple times, because the truth is, deep down you know that the only thing Nowitzki has on Duncan is range shooting. The Spurs couldn't survive more than a couple of games without Duncan, because he's to the Spurs defensively what Nowitzki is to the Mavs offensively. Take him out and the Spurs West's best defense would fall off considerably. It would be a layup drill inside.

No, they've struggled to reach the pinnacle and win the ultimate prize because they didn't have a truly great player who could carry a flawed team to glory, like Duncan did in '99 and '03. It's funny, when Robinson couldn't win without Duncan, he was criticized. When Nowitzki can't win, it's "he doesn't have enough help" (never mind the fact that his team annually has a bloated payroll).

I didn't disagree that Nowitzki is having the better season. Another perfect example of your lack of reading comprehension. What I said was, I'd still take Duncan over him, because he still impacts the game in more ways.