Unions vs. Republicans...

[fraga]

This is actually getting very interesting...

Article. (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145033-wisconsin-gov-gop-emboldened-by-protests-)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Fantasy vs. Reality

In God we trust. All others pay cash that isn't fresh off the presses.

[fraga]

What's that now...

[Winehole23]

http://www.achristmasstoryhouse.com/images/leglamp/leglamp2.jpg

[Viva Las Espuelas]

What's that now...

What's what?

[boutons_deux]

Union bashing is just part of the VRWC's bigger plan of bashing all of labor (the labor they haven't yet or can't get overseas), going back to St Ronnie sanctioning union-busting by busting the ATCs.

[CosmicCowboy]

So Boutons, WHEN are you moving to Norway?

[BlairForceDejuan]

This is getting entertaining indeed.

[boutons_deux]

Despite Public Perception, Government Workers Aren't Living Large

Though the media often reports on eye-popping, six-figure salaries of government officials, such as school superintendents and other political appointees, most public-sector workers don't do nearly as well. Typically, they earn about 6% less than workers in the private sector.

The average salary of a member of the American Federation of State County and Municipal Employees (AFSCME), the largest union representing government workers, is about $45,000, according to Kerry Korpi, the union's director of research and collective bargaining. Data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics shows the median salary of a U.S. worker at $43,640. The average AFSCME member collects a pension of about $19,000 a year.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/media/Wisconsin-protests-government-workers-arent-livin/19848851/

[CosmicCowboy]

Boutons...it's real simple.

It's a free country. If they don't want to work in the public sector they don't have to.

[boutons_deux]

Koch Industries Slashed WI Jobs, Helped Elect Scott Walker, Now Orchestrating Pro-Walker Protest

Wisconsin’s newly elected Republican Gov. Scott Walker is facing a growing backlash over his attempt to cut pay and eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in his state. Although Walker is claiming his power grab is an attempt to close a budget gap, the budget “crisis” was engineered by Walker as soon as he got into office. As Brian Beutler reported, half of the budget shortfall comes from Walker’s own tax cuts for businesses and other business giveaways enacted in January.

A number of the big business interests standing with Walker are beneficiaries of his administration’s tax giveaways. But the greatest ally to Walker is the dirty energy company Koch Industries. In response to the growing protests in Madison, Koch fronts are busing in Tea Party protesters to support Walker and his union-busting campaign. Last night, MSNBC’s Ed Schultz reported on the involvement of Club for Growth and the Koch-financed Americans for Prosperity in the pro-Walker protest scheduled tomorrow.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/18/business-teaparty-wisconsin/

===============

Enrich and protect the corps, fuck the citizens.

That's how Repug/conservative America rolls.

[Marcus Bryant]

So what activity for profit is not "dirty," at least for those of you in the asylum?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Boutons...it's real simple.

It's a free country. If they don't want to work in the public sector they don't have to.

The govt didn't have to make the deals..I guess breaking contracts now is going to be legal.

[Nbadan]

So what activity for profit is not "dirty," at least for those of you in the asylum?

False equivalence much?

[fraga]

Looks like now the "Tea Party" is getting involved...SHOCKER!!!

[BlairForceDejuan]

I like how privatizing social security is more dangerous than trillion dollar pension plans to be paid for by a bankrupt government lulz

[Capt Bringdown]

delete dubble post

[Capt Bringdown]

It's way past time that American workers starting fighting back in the vicious class war being waged against them, as workers have started to do in the ME.

Egypt’s protests were a denunciation of neo-liberalism and the political suppression required to impose it. (http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/02/20112148356117884.html)


These policies included privatisation of public assets, opening up to foreign investment, 'streamlining' public services, eliminating trade regulations, leaving prices to 'market forces' and encouraging the private sector to play an ever larger role in the running of the state. This new policy orientation, noted Abdelazim, 'effectively confined the state to judicial, legislative and security - rather than economic - issues.'

Sound familiar? As it turn out in the States, security means endless war and nation building in other countries, judicial means shredding the Bill of Rights and an abandonment of the rule of law, and legislative means staggering tax cuts for the wealthy and corporate rule.

[Crookshanks]

It's time to put an end to Public Sector Unions. The country is going broke and can't afford to pay these outrageous costs.

[LnGrrrR]

It's time to put an end to Public Sector Unions. The country is going broke and can't afford to pay these outrageous costs.

Shouldn't people have the liberty to collectively bargain?

[Crookshanks]

Shouldn't people have the liberty to collectively bargain?

Not when their wages are being paid by taxpayers.

[baseline bum]

It's way past time that American workers starting fighting back in the vicious class war being waged against them, as workers have started to do in the ME.


Hah... the military would start shooting Americans in a second.

[LnGrrrR]

Not when their wages are being paid by taxpayers.

What does that have to do with anything? Do govt workers lose their liberties because they're paid through tax dollars?

[LnGrrrR]

Hah... the military would start shooting Americans in a second.

I take some offense to that statement. We arent all mindless zombies ya know.

[Stringer_Bell]

What does that have to do with anything? Do govt workers lose their liberties because they're paid through tax dollars?

I believe the point was made in another thread that, ideally, unions are meant to counter the greed of corporations. There's a certain level of job security when you're a state/federal employee that isn't there when you're just a cog in the private sector.

While I'd agree that ANY worker in ANY sector should have a way to voice their opinions as part of an organized body when asking for reasonable work conditions according to their occupation, there's a ferociousness that these federal workers seem to be lashing out with when they're so easy to replace considering all the people with degrees that don't have jobs. There's a lot of problems in our institutions and I refuse to believe it's because some workers simply want collective bargaining agreements in place...shit output is shit output, and it needs to be recognized before any other demands are met. What about the demands of our institutions by the tax payers? The hyperbole about this being an assault on unions is asinine. I wonder how much the "union leaders" lose out on membership dues if the budget plan goes through...

Everyone is struggling, but those with federal jobs should be grateful they aren't working midnight shift as a cleaning woman at an hourly motel. If they're still pissed about something while the systems around them continue to fail on their watch, then fuck 'em. Fuck 'em in the ass and kick them out of the house so someone else can do the job right.

[boutons_deux]

Boutons...it's real simple.

It's a free country. If they don't want to work in the public sector they don't have to.

It's really simple. It's a free country. If they want to work in the public sector, they have the right to.

And if employees sign contracts, they have he legal power to demand the other signer (the state) honor the contracts.

This fuck-the-employee is exactly like the loan business.

If a Corporate-American reneges on a loan contract (like the MBA did on its HQ building) with another Corporate-American, silence.

If a Human-American reneges on a loan contract (like underwater mortgage clients), then Corporate-Americans destroy their reputations among all other Corporate-Americans (which includes future employers), will hunt them down, sue them, and harass them for years.

[boutons_deux]

12 Things You Need to Know About the Uprising in Wisconsin


What's happening in Wisconsin is not complicated. At the beginning of this year, the state was on course to end 2011 with a budget surplus of $120 million. As Ezra Klein explained, newly elected GOP Governor Scott Walker then " signed two business tax breaks and a conservative health-care policy experiment that lowers overall tax revenues (among other things). The new legislation was not offset, and it turned a surplus into a deficit."

Walker then used the deficit he'd created as the justification for assaulting his state's public employees. He used a law cooked up by a right-wing advocacy group called the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC). ALEC likes to fly beneath the radar, but I described the organization in a 2005 article as "the connective tissue that links state legislators with right-wing think tanks, leading anti-tax activists and corporate money." Similar laws are on the table in Ohio and Indiana.

Walker's bill would strip public employees of the right to bargain collectively for anything but higher pay (and would cap the amount of wage hikes they might end up gaining in negotiations). His intentions are clear -- before assuming office, Walker threatened to decertify the state's employees' unions (until he discovered that the governor doesn't have that power).

But he's spinning the measure as something else -- a bitter pill state workers must swallow in order to save Wisconsin's government. So the first things you need to know are:

1. Wisconsin's public workers have already "made sacrifices to help balance the budget, through 16 unpaid furlough days and no pay increases the past two years," according to the Associated Press. The unions know their members are going to have to make concessions on benefits, but they rightly see the assault on their fundamental right to negotiate as an act of war.

2. There are already 13 states that restrict public workers' bargaining rights and it hasn't helped their bottom lines. As Ed Kilgore notes, "eight non-collective-bargaining states face larger budget shortfalls than either Wisconsin or Ohio," and " three of the 13 non-collective bargaining states are among the eleven states facing budget shortfalls at or above 20%."

3. This isn't just about public employees. What even a majority of the protesters don't know is that Walker's law would also place all of the state's Medicaid funding in the hands of the governor. State senator Jon Erpenbach, D-Middleton -- one of the Dem law-makers who fled the state to block a vote on the bill -- told local media that this amounted to "substantial Medicaid changes" that put "the governor, all of a sudden... in charge of Medicaid, which is SeniorCare, which is BadgerCare ...and he has never once said what he intends to do” with those programs. But the provision led journalist Suzie Madrak to conclude that "the end game for all this is to defund state Medicaid programs and make it impossible to serve as part of the new health care safety net."

4. Health-care costs, rather than workers' greed, are what has driven up the price of employees' benefits. But generally speaking, those public sector health-care costs have grown at a slower clip than in the private sector.

5. Public employees' pensions account for just 6 percent of state budgets.

This has nothing to do with the state's fiscal picture. Aside from potentially undermining Wisconsin's public health-care system, it's really about destroying the last bastion of unionism in the American economy: public employees. As Addie Stan wrote on AlterNet's front page:

Walker is carrying out the wishes of his corporate master, David Koch, who calls the tune these days for Wisconsin Republicans. Walker is just one among many Wisconsin Republicans supported by Koch Industries -- run by David Koch and his brother, Charles -- and Americans For Prosperity, the astroturf group founded and funded by David Koch. The Koch brothers are hell-bent on destroying the labor movement once and for all.

Consider these facts:

6. Last year, more working people belonged to a union in the public sector (7.9 million) than in the private (7.4 million), despite the fact that corporate America employs five times the number of wage-earners. 37 percent of government workers belong to a union, compared with just 7 percent of private-sector employees.

7. Whether in the public or private sector, union workers earn, on average, 20 percent more than their non-unionized counterparts. They also have richer retirement and health benefits -- the “union compensation premium” rises to almost 30 percent when you include those bennies.

That workers can still negotiate from a position of strength somewhere in the US is simply unacceptable to the right, and that's what this is about. As you might expect, the tool they're using in their campaign is a pack full of lies and distortions about public employees. Here are some answers to those falsehoods:

8. Public sector workers have, on average, more experience and higher levels of education than their counterparts in the private sector (they are twice as likely to have a college degree).

9. When you adjust for those factors, they make, on average, 4 percent less than their private-sector counterparts.

10. Like any group of workers with a high union density, they have better benefits, on average. But even including those benefits, state and local employees still make less in total compensation than they would doing the same work in the private sector.

11. In 2007, the average pension for a public sector worker was $22,000. Not exactly caviar dreams.

12. Many public employees are not eligible for Social Security -- those pensions, and whatever they can put away on their own, is all that they'll have in their golden years.

(Unless otherwise indicated, you can find links to the data for all of the above in my piece, "Right-Wingers Using Public Employees as 21st-Century Welfare Queens.")

The Right has made great political progress getting Americans to ask the question: "How come that guy’s getting what I don’t have?" It’s the crux of the politics of grievance.

Progressives need to get Americans to ask a different question: "What’s keeping me from getting what that guy has?"

At least part of the answer is the Right’s decades-long assault on private sector workers’ ability to organize, and the latest battle is being waged in Wisconsin.

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/479560/12_things_you_need_to_know_about_the_uprising_in_w isconsin

========

When I lived in England, I heard the explanation that English workers looked at the hyper-wealthy and asked "how can I tear them down", where the American worker looked at the hyper-wealthy and asked "How can I become hyper-wealthy".

The VRWC's war on citizens has turned US citizens into the Englishmen. The VRWC difference is that the VRWC has totally fooled the bubbas into warring against their own interests, rather than warring against the real culprits, the VRWC.

But who benefits when the VRWC dupes/conscripts citizens into its the war on themselves, busts the unions, and reduces/stagnates all citizens' incomes? The VRWC.

[boutons_deux]

Debunking Tea Party Talking Points in Wisconsin


The Tea Party groups that are coming to counter protest at the Wisconsin state capitol Saturday have been given an strict set of talking points to stick to from their controllers at the Koch Brothers front group Americans for Prosperity. When they arrive on their camels, scratch that, their astroturfing buses from both in and out of state, the following is what you can expect to hear over and over, along with my analysis debunking each point.

“Quick facts about Wisconsin’s Budget Repair Legislation”

The plan is about reform: Wisconsin’s Budget Repair legislation is about enacting modest – but critical – reforms to public sector entitlement programs that are long past due. The proposal takes on some of the most egregious violators of taxpayer dollars including public employee unions and public sector pensions.

This plan is about destroying the last stronghold of organized labor in America: the public sector. Union participation was over 1/3rd of the work force 50 years ago, but has dropped to less than 10% today, except in the public sector. This bill is designed to not only go after wages and pensions, but end the ability of state workers to collectively bargain in the future, something that has nothing to do with any supposed budget “crisis”.

Ending public sector collective bargaining: The plan would end the practice of public sector union bosses strong-arming politicians for exorbitant benefits and absurd contract concessions. The plan rightly calls for an end to the ability of certain public sector unions to band together to pressure policymakers into unnecessary contract concessions.

Conservative groups like AFP have no interest in preserving ANY collective bargaining. They understand that workers are much easier to control individually, and seek to lower wages, lessen safety regulations, and end grievance mechanisms to maximize corporate profits that go almost exclusively to the rich.

Respecting the taxpayer: When public sector workers – who are paid with taxpayers dollars – resort to bullying tactics to gain sweetheart contracts filled with plush benefits unheard of in the private sector the taxpayer loses every time.

This is an attempt to portray public employees as not critical to the state, but these people perform critical functions like plowing snow, fixing roads, and making the government run. Further, it is mysteriously absent why public workers such as firefighters, police, and state troopers unions are exempt from this bill.

Respecting the public’s trust: When teachers choose not to teach purely to pad their already lavish contracts with taxpayer dollars they are violating a sacred public trust. Using students and their parents as leverage in contract disputes is a tried and true practice of teacher’s unions that must end.

There is no evidence that teachers have ever pressured students or parents to attend these demonstrations. The value of a strong education depends on attracting talented professionals to schools, not chasing them away.

Stopping out-of-control benefit costs in the public sector: The proposal would prevent unions from forcing extravagant pension and health benefits on the state that only serve to further cripple state budget. Also, the plan would make the commonsense change that public sector wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by voters.

o Also, some contracts would be limited to one year and wage rates would be frozen until the new contract is settled

There would be no serious crisis had Walker not rammed through tax cuts for the rich and big corporations. “Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit, but he and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes — or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues — the “crisis” would not exist.”

The public vs. private sector: In Wisconsin, private sector workers make 74% of their state-level public sector counterparts. This is the 48th worst pay differential in the nation and clearly shows that the public sector employee unions aren’t hurting for better pay or benefits.

This is a blatant lie. A study on this issue was just released a week ago that exposes it: “On an annual basis, full-time state and local government employees in Wisconsin are undercompensated by 8.2% compared with otherwise similar private sector workers.”

Paying a fair share: The plan also would help ease the tremendous financial burden placed on the state by its bloated pension plan by finally requiring some public workers to pay their fair share into the program.

o Overall, public employees would fund 50 percent of the annual pension payment – a total that would require a modest contribution of 5.8 percent of 2011’s salary.

Again, if the financial burden on the state is being caused by tax cuts for the rich and large, multinational corporations. Walker is deliberately making the budget situation worse in order to break the backs of public unions.

In typical Tea Party fashion, the talking points are filled with pejorative terminology like egregious violators, strong-arming, absurd contract, bullying, plush benefits, lavish contracts, extravagant health benefits, and bloated pension. They are designed from the top down to give the illusion of a common voice among conservatives about this issue, and like all propaganda, when the points are actually examined in detail, the whole charade begins to unravel.

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/02/18/debunking-tea-party-talking-points-in-wisconsin/

[jack sommerset]

Politics are so much fun. You have Pelosi and company saying repugs want to shut down government and in Wisconsin you have dems hiding, freaken HIDING so they don't have to vote on the budget. You can't just raise taxes to balance a budget, you need to cut expenses. Cowards are avoiding doing their job they were voting in to do.

State and Federal governments have been reckless in writing checks other people have to cash. They have way, way, way overspent and thrown way way way too much money at public sector employees, it is time to make some adjustments...and what do they do...they freaken leave town. Oh and the best is the actual protest, the civility our public peeps are showing.

I don't know one person that is happy with the school system and the people teaching and running them. Not one. I can't think of anyone in here over the years that says that everything is good or even average. People are generally disgusted with our school system and yet in Wisconsin those peeps are being paid on average 50 G's maybe more, they are getting 30 g's in benifits, maybe more and they get 3 months off a year off.

And freaken barry saying this is an attack on unions. That dude freaken blows.

[boutons_deux]

Typical, Jack Can't Read (probably Won't)

The WI "crisis" being used to beat on employees is totally manufactured by cutting taxes on corporations.

Another false "crisis" Brewer in AZ to deny organ transplants.

"Brewer eagerly signed tax cuts for businesses into law last week — cuts that will cost Arizona $538 million by 2018. Yet the governor has dragged her feet in offering the mere $1.36 million needed to save Courtney and her cohort’s lives, and she has consistently ignored 26 possible funding solutions from a member of her own party. "

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/19/brewer-corporate-tax-cut-transplant/

Poor, sick, old, young simply don't enough funds and lawyer lobbyists to counter the $Bs from the VRWC and their VRWC extreme activists in federal/SCOTUS judgeships.

[fraga]

How quickly we forget....40 hr work week...employer provided health insurance...workman's compensation...all thanks to Unions...they serve their purpose...

[boutons_deux]

Avg UCA working hours are up, while in all other industrial countries the trend is down, to say nothing of 4-6 weeks paid vacation in other industrial countries.

How can anybody forget dubya's DoLabor upgrading 100s of 1000s of hourly employees to salaried so the wouldn't get any overtime?

On August 23, 2004, controversial changes to the FLSA's overtime regulations went into effect, making substantial modifications to the definition of an "exempt" employee. Low-level working supervisors throughout American industries were reclassified as “executives” and lost overtime rights. These changes were sought by business interests and the Bush administration, which claimed that the laws needed clarification and that few workers would be affected. The Bush administration called the new regulations "FairPay." But other organizations, such as the AFL-CIO, claimed the changes would make millions of additional workers ineligible to obtain relief under the FLSA for overtime pay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act

[Wild Cobra]

So Boutons, WHEN are you moving to Norway?
He can't. He needs a subsidy to afford it, and I bet their immigration policy requires you have a job lined up, or are independently wealthy, like most other nations do.

[Wild Cobra]

Boutons...it's real simple.

It's a free country. If they don't want to work in the public sector they don't have to.
That's right. They are stupid if they stay there but can find a better job elsewhere. If better pay and benefits aren't available to them elsewhere, then what right do they have to be "entitled?"

[Nbadan]

So now it's an 'entitlement' to be paid a livable wage with health benefits that won't bankrupt you if you become ill or have a accident?

Let's cut services many unemployed are using to survive, but give 54 billion of our tax money to oil companies...

That ain't my America....

WbG-oHtubCY

[Yonivore]

I hope they all lose their jobs. It is stupid for unionized public employees to continue the money grab in a recession.

I hope they're fired.

I hope the unions are busted.

I hope the children of Wisconsin get real teachers instead of union hacks.

It's probably already been said but, I think the Wisconsin Unions should have taken a lesson from Ronald Reagan and PATCO. PATCO struck during a recession; Reagan fired them all and was handily reelected next go around.

The Wisconsin Governor seems to have been paying attention in the 80's.

[boutons_deux]

"continue the money grab in a recession."

You Lie. They have already given up stuff.

The Kock Bros governor created the crisis by cutting taxes, just like Repugs do nationally.

Yoni, WC, Darrin are nothing but VRWC/Kock Bros shills.

[PublicOption]

I like how the GOP has sent in their "goon" squad. Just like Mubarak did......it won't work either. "bought" organizer can't beat real ones, because real ones are doing it for their lives and "bought" ones will quit before the malitov's start flying.

[Capt Bringdown]

We need to move beyond the left-right conceptual framework - not to a squishy, suck-up center, but to rather an honest consideration of economic class and a subsequent elaboration of economic rights. Class: America's C-word, a taboo topic that the elites don't want us to think about. Is there any doubt that financial and economic elites don't actively organize and act on their interests? Isn't it about time for America's working class to start organizing and advocating for ours?

FDR's bill of economic rights is a good place to start:

Employment, with a living wage
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
Housing,
Medical care
Education
Social security

[CosmicCowboy]

We need to move beyond the left-right conceptual framework - not to a squishy, suck-up center, but to rather an honest consideration of economic class and a subsequent elaboration of economic rights. Class: America's C-word, a taboo topic that the elites don't want us to think about. Is there any doubt that financial and economic elites don't actively organize and act on their interests? Isn't it about time for America's working class to start organizing and advocating for ours?

FDR's bill of economic rights is a good place to start:

Employment, with a living wage
?????Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies ?????
Housing,
Medical care
Education
Social security

Other than that reference about monopolies and competition that's what responsible people do. They take care of that stuff.

[Wild Cobra]

So now it's an 'entitlement' to be paid a livable wage with health benefits that won't bankrupt you if you become ill or have a accident?
Sometimes, yes.

Is it industry standard or not?

We live in a free society. if they don't like the pay and benefits they have, let them find a better job.

Let's cut services many unemployed are using to survive, but give 54 billion of our tax money to oil companies...
Why don't we start by making it viqable bor business to make a profit again, so they can increase the work force.

Who's talking about giving money to oil companies? Nobody here that I know of.

Typical...

When you cannot argue the facts, you make shit up.

That ain't my America....
You don't belong in America. Your utopian dream is nothing but a fantasy.

[Wild Cobra]

"continue the money grab in a recession."

You Lie. They have already given up stuff.

The Kock Bros governor created the crisis by cutting taxes, just like Repugs do nationally.

Yoni, WC, Darrin are nothing but VRWC/Kock Bros shills.
LOL...

You're nothing but Loony Tunes...

[Wild Cobra]

We need to move beyond the left-right conceptual framework - not to a squishy, suck-up center, but to rather an honest consideration of economic class and a subsequent elaboration of economic rights. Class: America's C-word, a taboo topic that the elites don't want us to think about. Is there any doubt that financial and economic elites don't actively organize and act on their interests? Isn't it about time for America's working class to start organizing and advocating for ours?

FDR's bill of economic rights is a good place to start:

Employment, with a living wage
Freedom from unfair competition and monopolies
Housing,
Medical care
Education
Social security
The left is already far too organized and destroying this country with their nanny state and entitlement mentality.

Get out and work dammit.

[boutons_deux]

It's not only Unions vs Repugs

It's Repugs vs the lower 98%.

Here's a good synopsis. VRWC/Repugs intentionally create deficits with $Ts in tax cuts for the wealthy, $Ts for bullshit, never-ending wars and occupation of the planet, and $Ts lost in tax revenues due to job and property value losses, then they blame it all on the government, at all levels.

Here's a good summary of the strategy.

Exposing the Republicans' 3-Part Strategy to Tear the Middle Class Apart -- What Are We Going to Do to Stop It?
By Robert Reich, RobertReich.org

http://www.alternet.org/story/149981/

The Republican strategy is to split the vast middle and working class - pitting unionized workers against non-unionized, public-sector workers against non-public, older workers within sight of Medicare and Social Security against younger workers who don't believe these programs will be there for them, and the poor against the working middle class.

By splitting working America along these lines, Republicans want Americans to believe that we can no longer afford to do what we need to do as a nation. They hope to deflect attention from the increasing share of total income and wealth going to the richest 1 percent while the jobs and wages of everyone else languish.

Republicans would rather no one notice their campaign to shrink the pie even further with additional tax cuts for the rich - making the Bush tax cuts permanent, further reducing the estate tax, and allowing the wealthy to shift ever more of their income into capital gains taxed at 15 percent.

The strategy has three parts:

1. The Battle over the Federal Budget

The first is being played out in the budget battle in Washington. As they raise the alarm over deficit spending and simultaneously squeeze popular middle-class programs, Republicans want the majority of the American public to view it all as a giant zero-sum game among average Americans that some will have to lose.

The President has already fallen into the trap by calling for budget cuts in programs the poor and working class depend on - assistance with home heating, community services, college loans, and the like.

In the coming showdown over Medicare and Social Security, House budget chair Paul Ryan will push a voucher system for Medicare and a partly-privatized plan for Social Security - both designed to attract younger middle-class voters.

2. The Assault on Public Employees

The second part of the Republican strategy is being played out on the state level where public employees are being blamed for state budget crises. Unions didn't cause these budget crises -- state revenues dropped because of the Great Recession -- but Republicans view them as opportunities to gut public employee unions, starting with teachers.

Wisconsin's Republican governor Scott Walker and his GOP legislature are seeking to end almost all union rights for teachers. Ohio's Republican governor John Kasich is pushing a similar plan in Ohio through a Republican-dominated legislature. New Jersey's Republican governor Chris Christie is attempting the same, telling a conservative conference Wednesday, "I'm attacking the leadership of the union because they're greedy, and they're selfish and they're self-interested."

The demonizing of public employees is not only based on the lie that they've caused these budget crises, but it's also premised on a second lie: that public employees earn more than private-sector workers. They don't, when you take account of their education. In fact over the last fifteen years the pay of public-sector workers, including teachers, has dropped relative to private-sector employees with the same level of education - even including health and retirement benefits. Moreover, most public employees don't have generous pensions. After a career with annual pay averaging less than $45,000, the typical newly-retired public employee receives a pension of $19,000 a year.

Bargaining rights for public employees haven't caused state deficits to explode. Some states that deny their employees bargaining rights, such as Nevada, North Carolina, and Arizona, are running big deficits of over 30 percent of spending. Many states that give employees bargaining rights -- Massachusetts, New Mexico, and Montana -- have small deficits of less than 10 percent.

Republicans would rather go after teachers and other public employees than have us look at the pay of Wall Street traders, private-equity managers, and heads of hedge funds - many of whom wouldn't have their jobs today were it not for the giant taxpayer-supported bailout, and most of whose lending and investing practices were the proximate cause of the Great Depression to begin with.

Last year, America's top thirteen hedge-fund managers earned an average of $1 billion each. One of them took home $5 billion. Much of their income is taxed as capital gains - at 15 percent - due to a tax loophole that Republican members of Congress have steadfastly guarded.

If the earnings of those thirteen hedge-fund managers were taxed as ordinary income, the revenues generated would pay the salaries and benefits of 300,000 teachers. Who is more valuable to our society - thirteen hedge-fund managers or 300,000 teachers? Let's make the question even simpler. Who is more valuable: One hedge fund manager or one teacher?

3. The Distortion of the Constitution

The third part of the Republican strategy is being played out in the Supreme Court. It has politicized the Court more than at any time in recent memory.

Last year a majority of the justices determined that corporations have a right under the First Amendment to provide unlimited amounts of money to political candidates. Citizens United vs. the Federal Election Commission is among the most patently political and legally grotesque decisions of our highest court - ranking right up there with Bush vs. Gore and Dred Scott.

Among those who voted in the affirmative were Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia. Both have become active strategists in the Republican party.

A month ago, for example, Antonin Scalia met in a closed-door session with Michele Bachman's Tea Party caucus - something no justice concerned about maintaining the appearance of impartiality would ever have done.

Both Thomas and Scalia have participated in political retreats organized and hosted by multi-billionaire financier Charles Koch, a major contributor to the Tea Party and other conservative organizations, and a crusader for ending all limits on money in politics. (Not incidentally, Thomas's wife is the founder of Liberty Central, a Tea Party organization that has been receiving unlimited corporate contributions due to the Citizens United decision. On his obligatory financial disclosure filings, Thomas has repeatedly failed to list her sources of income over the last twenty years, nor even to include his own four-day retreats courtesy of Charles Koch.)

Some time this year or next, the Supreme Court will be asked to consider whether the nation's new healthcare law is constitutional. Watch your wallets.

The strategy as a whole

These three aspects of the Republican strategy - a federal budget battle to shrink government, focused on programs the vast middle class depends on; state efforts to undermine public employees, whom the middle class depends on; and a Supreme Court dedicated to bending the Constitution to enlarge and entrench the political power of the wealthy - fit perfectly together.

They pit average working Americans against one another, distract attention from the almost unprecedented concentration of wealth and power at the top, and conceal Republican plans to further enlarge and entrench that wealth and power.

What is the Democratic strategy to counter this and reclaim America for the rest of us?

=============

So there you have it (it's not news to me), the Repug strategy as financed by the VRWC.

The Dems won't do anything, citizens' votes are meaningless as corruption has completely disenfranchised voters, so there's really no stopping the VRWC from raping America and continuing to push it into permanent, terminal decline.

[George Gervin's Afro]

The left is already far too organized and destroying this country with their nanny state and entitlement mentality.

Get out and work dammit.

we're still waiting for the 2001 tax cuts to get us the jobs!

[boutons_deux]

"Get out and work dammit."

good ol' WC, always a non-starter, all VRWC bullshit signifying nothing.

===================

The Unemployed Need Not Apply

The Federal Reserve is projecting unemployment to continue at or near 9 percent for the rest of the year. That is 13.9 million Americans out of work. Here is more grim news: Barriers to employment for jobless workers may be even higher than previously thought.

As the Fed updated its forecast last week, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission held a forum on discrimination against unemployed job seekers. Members of Congress had urged the commission to explore the issue, after reading press reports of numerous instances in which employers and staffing agencies refused to consider the unemployed for openings.

The message — “the unemployed need not apply” — has at times been explicitly stated in job announcements. In other cases, unemployed job seekers have reported verbal rejections after a recruiter or employer learned they were not currently working.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/opinion/20sun2.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

[Stringer_Bell]

The Unemployed Need Not Apply

The Federal Reserve is projecting unemployment to continue at or near 9 percent for the rest of the year. That is 13.9 million Americans out of work. Here is more grim news: Barriers to employment for jobless workers may be even higher than previously thought.

As the Fed updated its forecast last week, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission held a forum on discrimination against unemployed job seekers. Members of Congress had urged the commission to explore the issue, after reading press reports of numerous instances in which employers and staffing agencies refused to consider the unemployed for openings.

The message — “the unemployed need not apply” — has at times been explicitly stated in job announcements. In other cases, unemployed job seekers have reported verbal rejections after a recruiter or employer learned they were not currently working.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/opinion/20sun2.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

“the unemployed need not apply” sounds an awful lot like discrimination. I'm no legal scholar, but I'd like an advocate to look into it and nail those slimy HR motherfuckers to the goddamn Tree of Woe.

I think the sentiment WC has, which I share, is that if people with jobs (and the job security federal jobs offer) want to spend their time organizing rallies and ditching work - get rid of them and let someone else that wants to do the job work. Sure, it's a dick thing to let Corps off on taxes and pin it on the workers...but they're not bitching about that, they're bitching about Union entitlements for positions paid by the taxpayers - positions that aren't getting the job done in the first place.

[Capt Bringdown]

Nationwide Worker Solidarity Meetings Planned (http://www.jwjblog.org/2011/02/worker-solidarity-rallies-planned/)

Check the link above to see if there's one in your area. Of course, there's none in Texas...yet.


"The labor movement was the principal force that transformed misery and despair into hope and progress. Out of its bold struggles, economic and social reform gave birth to unemployment insurance, old-age pensions, government relief for the destitute and, above all, new wage levels that meant not mere survival but a tolerable life. The captains of industry did not lead this transformation; they resisted it until they were overcome. When in the thirties the wave of union organization crested over the nation, it carried to secure shores not only itself but the whole society."

Martin Luther King Jr.
—Speech to the state convention of the Illinois AFL-CIO, Oct. 7, 1965

[boutons_deux]

"want to spend their time organizing rallies and ditching work"

link? or is that just your VRWC-inflamed prejudice?

How much time do you think NFL/NBA/NHL players spend "organizing" against the owners?

[boutons_deux]

we're still waiting for the 2001 tax cuts to get us the jobs!

"median family income down 8.1% since 2000"

http://srph.it/i3idhh

As pitbull bitch would say, "How that trickle-y down-y laffer-y workin our fer ya?"

[Wild Cobra]

“the unemployed need not apply” sounds an awful lot like discrimination.
I heard once that once an unemployed person who was collecting unemployment is hired, that the employer pays a higher unemployment insurance rate. No idea if it's true, but I wonder...

[Wild Cobra]

"median family income down 8.1% since 2000"

http://srph.it/i3idhh

As pitbull bitch would say, "How that trickle-y down-y laffer-y workin our fer ya?"
And you never have solutions. Only ideas that make the economy worse.

[boutons_deux]

And you never have solutions. Only ideas that make the economy worse.

so you backhandedly admit there are problems?

Which of my ideas would make the economy worse?

Which of Repug/conservative/your ideas would make the economy better (for everybody).

[Wild Cobra]

so you backhandedly admit there are problems?
there have been problems in this nation for decades. "Backhandedly?" WTF do you mean?

Which of my ideas would make the economy worse?
All of them. You are a true liberal to the core, and expect it is right to take from some to give to others. Not i agree there are times and circumstances this is necessary, but we have gone way out of control on social spending since the 60's.

Which of Repug/conservative/your ideas would make the economy better (for everybody).
Many of them. We have discussed such things before. As it stands now, the biggest two thing I think would be to place tariffs on many incoming goods and stop taxing production and earnings. Tax consumption instead.

[ElNono]

stop taxing production and earnings. Tax consumption instead.

Isn't this an oxymoron, besides the fact that trickle down didn't work and got us to this point?

[Wild Cobra]

Isn't this an oxymoron, besides the fact that trickle down didn't work and got us to this point?
It's not trickle down.

[boutons_deux]

Scott Walker, the Governor of Wisconsin who is spearheading the GOP effort to crush collective bargaining, lavished relatively large salary increases on his staff when he was chief executive of the Milwaukee County Board. Walker surreptitiously did this in 2008 - without the approval of the county board itself and at a time that the county was facing a fiscal deficit, and Walker was about to lay off a large number of union workers. In addition, 700 county positions had already been left vacant due to budgetary pressures.

According to a 2008 Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel (MJS) article,which exposed Walker's illicit personal staff raises, one aide was to achieve a 26% increase - solely initiated and approved by Walker - even though the staffer, Tom Nardelli, was to receive tax-payer funded pensions that would exceed $35,700 a year. A member of the Milwaukee County Board of Supervisors called Nardelli's salary increase "obscene," according the MJS.

As with the current "budget crisis" in the State of Wisconsin, Walker was helping to create a budget deficit, while using the situation he is responsible for to try and break the unions.

According to a February 18 New York Times editorial, "Just last month, he [Walker] and the Legislature gave away $117 million in tax breaks, mostly for businesses that expand and for private health savings accounts. That was a choice lawmakers made, and had it not been for those decisions and a few others, according to the state's Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the state would have had a surplus."

It's appropriate then to backtrack to 2008 and Walker's history of gilding the lily for his cronies while trying to break the back of working families becomes illuminated.

According to the MJS article entitled "Walker Issues Hefty Raises to Top Milwaukee County Aides":

Milwaukee County Executive Scott Walker wants a 26% pay raise for his chief of staff, former Ald. Tom Nardelli, while bypassing traditional County Board approval in quietly issuing large pay raises over the summer to several other top aides.

Nardelli would get the biggest pay increase of top-tier county officials, a nearly $20,000 raise to $95,000 a year. Seven county administrators also scored increases of up to 12.5%.

Some supervisors are upset about being left out of the decision-making process for many of the raises and say Walker's timing couldn't be worse. Heavily rewarding a few top managers while Walker puts final touches on a 2009 budget that's expected to call for scores of layoffs of union workers sends a message of callous disregard, critics of the raises say.

Among the other big winners among Walker's top aides was Mitchell International Airport Director Barry Bateman. His pay rises $13,595, or 11%, to $136,299 a year. Facilities Management Director Jack Takerian got an $11,771 (12.5%) raise, to nearly $106,000.

One of Walker's highly questionable claims in his Koch Brothers' efforts to squash unions by first going after public worker collective bargaining is that the union benefits are higher than in the private sector.

Yet, in 2008, the MJS reported:

Orville Seymer, field director for Citizens for Responsible Government Network, said the raises for Nardelli and some other Walker aides appeared excessive.

"I just think all these people are overpaid" and unlikely to command such salaries in the private sector, Seymer said.

In his stand-off as the point man for the Koch Brothers, Dick Armey, and the national Republican Party, Walker is doing in 2011 what he did in 2008: enrich his cronies and the well-off at taxpayer expense, create a budget crisis, and then using the budgetary problem that he is responsible for to crush the unions.

History repeats itself, doesn't it - and so does the hypocrisy that threatens the existence of the American working family.

http://blog.buzzflash.com/node/12372

[LnGrrrR]

It's not trickle down.

A few questions:

Do any other modern countries not have income tax?

Without income tax, how much would our other taxes have to go up?

If our consumption taxes went up, wouldn't you agree that would affect the poor more than the rich?

[Wild Cobra]

A few questions:

Do any other modern countries not have income tax?

Without income tax, how much would our other taxes have to go up?

If our consumption taxes went up, wouldn't you agree that would affect the poor more than the rich?
Don't you get it?

The biggest problem we have for elections is the people voting in politicians that will give them things. Everyone needs to pay taxes so that tax rate changes affect everyone. As it stands, most voters who pay no0 taxes don't give a damn about the rest of us. they need a stake in the burden too.

Fuck that entitlement mentality.

It isn't American.

[LnGrrrR]

Don't you get it?

The biggest problem we have for elections is the people voting in politicians that will give them things. Everyone needs to pay taxes so that tax rate changes affect everyone. As it stands, most voters who pay no0 taxes don't give a damn about the rest of us. they need a stake in the burden too.

Fuck that entitlement mentality.

It isn't American.

You know, you didn't answer any of my questions WC.

And even those who don't pay income tax still pay consumption taxes, right?

[Stringer_Bell]

I heard once that once an unemployed person who was collecting unemployment is hired, that the employer pays a higher unemployment insurance rate. No idea if it's true, but I wonder...

Maybe, but that's still a bullshit excuse. When I read "unemployed," I didn't automatically think of people collecting checks...I processed it as people looking for work, straight up, without government assistance. It's not just people getting laid off from jobs, it's recent AA and Bachelor's grads, people go back to school but need to work to make ends meet in the household...lots of different circumstances as to why someone is "unemployed." I'd be furious if I was looking for a job and saw a warning that I shouldn't apply. :ihit

Then again, even if it's not written down people still look down on applicants without current employers (active references).

[Wild Cobra]

You know, you didn't answer any of my questions WC.

And even those who don't pay income tax still pay consumption taxes, right?
I have explained this again and again in the past, and nobody addresses my main reasons.

Who care what someone else does anyway? Should we be followers, or leaders?

[Wild Cobra]

Maybe, but that's still a bullshit excuse. All things equal, why should an employer want to pay more?

I don't know if that's even true. I just threw it out there. It's always been easier to find a job while employed rather than not. With as many people looking for work, both employed and not, maybe employers are trying to weed out the lazy. It's bullshit not to take the initiative and not work There are plenty of minimum wage jobs out there. Sure, they don't pay much, but they at least show that you have sound work ethics rather than relying on Uncle Nanny, or being an unknown factor.

[boutons_deux]

WC's kinder and gentler attack on the bottom 4 quintiles, esp on the bottom 2 quintiles

flat income tax

consumption tax

both horribly, punitively regressive. Neither is remotely possible, except in his conservative imagination.

If conservatives/Repugs are for something, you can be damn reliably sure that it's bad for the country as whole and for the bottom 98%.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Whats really sad is that WC holds a job like this (http://jobs.oregonlive.com/careers/jobsearch/detail?searchType=quick&kAndEntire=electrician&location=&lastUpdated=-30+days&jobId=35015544&viewType=main&networkView=main&offset=) one and he has the political views he does.

I might make $50k/year if i work real hard forever but those unions in other states are terribads.

What a fucking idiot.

[Wild Cobra]

WC's kinder and gentler attack on the bottom 4 quintiles, esp on the bottom 2 quintiles

flat income tax

consumption tax

both horribly, punitively regressive. Neither is remotely possible, except in his conservative imagination.

If conservatives/Repugs are for something, you can be damn reliably sure that it's bad for the country as whole and for the bottom 98%.
What...

Making everyone equally accountable is unfair?

Fuck you.

[LnGrrrR]

I have explained this again and again in the past, and nobody addresses my main reasons.

Who care what someone else does anyway? Should we be followers, or leaders?

Is it really that hard to answer those questions? I'm not going to dig through all your posts.

Your last two sentences make no sense. I have no idea what you're trying to say.

[Winehole23]

Whats really sad is that WC holds a job like this (http://jobs.oregonlive.com/careers/jobsearch/detail?searchType=quick&kAndEntire=electrician&location=&lastUpdated=-30+days&jobId=35015544&viewType=main&networkView=main&offset=) one and he has the political views he does.

What a fucking idiot.
"All Knowledge is built upon instinctive belief, failing that there is nothing left." -Bertrand Russell

[Wild Cobra]

Is it really that hard to answer those questions? I'm not going to dig through all your posts.

Your last two sentences make no sense. I have no idea what you're trying to say.
I do know we pay among the highest corporate tax rates. Most countries use a consumption tax, some an income tax also. We are not alone in hurting, but we need to balance the trade deficit. Do you have a better idea, instead of worrying about the other guy?

[LnGrrrR]

What...

Making everyone equally accountable is unfair?

Fuck you.

Unfair in the sense that it affects some much more than others. People struggling to survive are affected more by consumption taxes, aren't they?

Now, if you wanted to get rid of sales tax on "staple" items, such as bread, that might be different.

[LnGrrrR]

I do know we pay among the highest corporate tax rates. Most countries use a consumption tax, some an income tax also. We are not alone in hurting, but we need to balance the trade deficit. Do you have a better idea, instead of worrying about the other guy?

Some countries have an income tax? Ok, so which modern countries DON'T have an income tax?

And you're worrying about the other guy too, it's jus that your other guy is the rich one.

[Wild Cobra]

Unfair in the sense that it affects some much more than others. People struggling to survive are affected more by consumption taxes, aren't they?
Why do those of you opposed take such a narrow minded view? There is no need to tax necessities. If you tax only what is not your basic necessities, it doesn't hurt those who only buy the basics.

Now, if you wanted to get rid of sales tax on "staple" items, such as bread, that might be different.

Have I ever said otherwise? I have always stated basic items, or in some other wording, that you don't tax food and the likes.

[LnGrrrR]

Why do those of you opposed take such a narrow minded view? There is no need to tax necessities. If you tax only what is not your basic necessities, it doesn't hurt those who only buy the basics.

Fair enough. What do you consider necessities?

[Wild Cobra]

Fair enough. What do you consider necessities?

That would be debatable of course. Food in the stores, but not fast food. Diapers, bottles, toiletry items, etc. for starters.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The Bertrand quote is in the context of sensory experience at the basest level not on you feel about very human constructs.

He was talking about how reflective light is perceived by the eye.

I am not sure how that is to be applied here.

[LnGrrrR]

That would be debatable of course. Food in the stores, but not fast food. Diapers, bottles, toiletry items, etc. for starters.

Ok, so if we don't have an income tax, and we don't tax essentials, how would we pay for govt? (and yes I'm aware this would shrink gov and that is probably a feature and not a bug, however, not sure how you could even afford essential govt functions this way)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fair enough. What do you consider necessities?

whatever crosses his mind at the time. it should be obvious by now that WC's ethic is a reactionary one and has no real wordlview. thats why you see him parrot what he fed by his 'trusted' sources.

Its why you can literally tell he is going off to wikipedia to form any opinion as he goes along.

he does not even know why he thinks what he thinks. its quite amusing.

he is a minion. a servile follower or subordinate of a person in power.

[Winehole23]

The dissonance is only apparent. Fair enuf.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The dissonance is only apparent. Fair enuf.

only apparent if you have no idea of the context of the material or who Russell is or how he came to his conclusions.

basically absent of any logical construct that holds true. ie at the basest perception. once you have a framework it becomes different.

essentially its how he presented his rectification of the classical dispute between Hume and Kant but what you are claiming is that the quote would tend towards the notion that God must exist because you 'feel' he exists.

thus the end of the statement, 'there is nothing left.'

in this case there is a whole bunch of shit left.

[Winehole23]

only apparent if you have no idea of the context of the material or who Russell is or how he came to his conclusions.I have some idea who Russell is but little idea how he reached his conclusions. Fortunately we have you to lecture us on that. Thanks for sharing.

what you are claiming is that the quote would tend towards the notion that God must exist because you 'feel' he exists. I saw an apparent conflict; it vanished on closer inspection. I didn't claim anything. You're just inferring I did.

Have fun!



(molehill --> mountain)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have some idea who Russell is but little idea how he reached his conclusions. Fortunately we have you to lecture us on that. Thanks for sharing.
I saw an apparent conflict; it vanished on closer inspection. I didn't claim anything. You're just inferring I did.

Have fun!



(molehill --> mountain)

I had it in my sig because I find the discussion fascinating. Sorry if my explanation was too much but quite frankly in a political forum i do not see how that is possible.

Also attributing the conclusion to you was unfair. i was not trying to denigrate you. i was just trying to point out that the logical conclusion from the apparent dissonance is that.

I was just thinking to myself that the quote in and of itself draws no conclusions beyond to say that there is no conclusion.

whatevs sorry for being a pedantic fuck. i cannot help it. i do try though.

[fraga]

http://i.imgur.com/xvQga.jpg

[Winehole23]

Eh, no biggie. I'm not sore, I'm just not sure I have anything meaningful to add. My hunch was, after all, wrong.

[Winehole23]

@Fuzzy:

fwiw I like/welcome your contributions to this forum, infrequent as they are. My thanks to you upstream was about as sincere as it was facetious.

[ElNono]

BTW, what I meant by oxymoron is that if the economic crisis came about because of a halt in consumption, taxing consumption would be exactly the contrary of what you would want to do to stimulate it.

Plus it's not like we don't tax consumption already... I believe most States charge sales tax already in the vast majority of goods sold? (the biggest exception seems to be the internet these days)

[Yonivore]

This might be an opportune time for Governor Walker to push for voucher legislation in Wisconsin. After he fires about 15,000 teachers, kids are going to be needing an education...those tax dollars could be diverted to a comprehensive voucher program.

[Fabbs]

http://i.imgur.com/xvQga.jpg
Awesome pic fraga.
Man i hope this catches on. :lol

[Yonivore]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/media/MadisonRally0001.jpg

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/media/MadisonRally0003.jpg

[Winehole23]

those tax dollars could be diverted to a comprehensive voucher program.How humane of you, Yoni,

[Yonivore]

How humane of you, Yoni,
If I were a Wisconsin parent, I would want my child back in school. The sooner Governor Walker fires the crybaby teachers and figures out how to get the education system rolling again, the better.

Or, the picketers could accept the Governor's reasonable terms and go back to work.

[Yonivore]

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/a/17/c88/a17c8846-3c8b-11e0-a749-001cc4c03286-revisions/4d6065b3cfb45.image.jpg
Here's what that cartoonist had to say...


This debate over Gov. Scott Walker's budget bill has been difficult for me. I have progressive values. I believe in gay marriage, I believe in mass transit, I believe in global climate change, I believe in abortion rights, I believe in urban planning and I believe in a single payer health care system. But on the issue of public employee compensation and the role that their unions play in our government, I find myself siding with conservatives.
Yeah, I bet this doesn't end well for the unions.

[ElNono]

To me, it's unfortunate that these days we can't seem to be able to find a middle ground on a lot of this stuff. It has to be all or nothing. Walker said he didn't want to spend 15 months talking to the unions to reach an agreement, but his proposal shows that he doesn't want to talk to the unions at all. It's also two-faced to talk about this kind of reform but leave out other public service unions like police or firefighters...

I don't know if the 15 months number is a real figure, but I can see where that's inordinate and simply bad. I also have no problem with the workers paying part of their retirement/health coverage. The question to me is why not attempt to forth a proposal that meets everyone somewhat in the middle of the road?

[LnGrrrR]

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/media/MadisonRally0001.jpg

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/media/MadisonRally0003.jpg

:lol Yeah! How dare these workers request pension, or sick days, or retirement after working 30 years!?! What slackers!!

[Winehole23]

@Yoni:

It was never going to end well for the unions, but yeah, you could be totally right in spite of your horrible record of predicting things here. :p:

[boutons_deux]

Walker's program is political bullshit, haivng nothign to do with budgeting, which is used dishonestly as bludgeon the unions

================


Here's the problem, according to Walker's release:

The state of Wisconsin is facing an immediate deficit of $137 million for the current fiscal year which ends July 1. In addition, bill collectors are waiting to collect over $225 million for a prior raid of the Patients’ Compensation Fund.

There is a $137 million shortfall for this year. Regarding the Patients' Compensation Fund, Politifact reports that "a court ruling is pending in that matter, so the money might not have to be transferred until next budget year."

But here are three important points from the governor's release that show quite clearly that this bill has nothing at all to do with closing Wisconsin's budget gap in the near-term -- as an emergency measure that wasn't even subject to public debate.

1. "The budget repair will also restructure the state debt, lowering the state’s interest rate, saving the state $165 million." That's right, restructuring the state's outstanding debt yields more savings than the projected shortfall, and nobody is objecting to that provision.

2. "It will require state employees to pay about 5.8% toward their pension (about the private sector national average) and about 12% of their healthcare benefits (about half the private sector national average). These changes will help the state save $30 million in the last three months of the current fiscal year." Yes, those give-backs would yield less than 20 percent of what the debt restructuring would bring in. And, as I mentioned earlier, the public employees' unions offered to make those concessions in exchange for losing the provision that would bar them from negotiating their benefits package in the future, and the GOP flatly refused the offer.

3. The collective bargaining provision wouldn't kick in until after the current contracts expire, meaning that the measure would yield exactly zero savings in the current budget.

Random Lengths News' Paul Rosenberg caught this, and adds that Walker is also sitting on an "unused cache of $73 million" in the state's economic development fund -- "more than twice what’s being sought from public sector workers.”

Samuel Smith at Scholars and Rogues has more detail.

AlterNet also reported over the weekend that while far too many pundits continue to buy Scott Walker's spin that the Wisconsin uprising is a response to the state's public employees being asked to shoulder more of the burden for their health-care and pension costs, the reality is that it's really all about the union-busting.

According to the Milwaukee Business Times, the unions have in fact agreed to all of the GOP's demands on wages and benefits, in exchange for Republicans dropping the provision that would strip them of the right to negotiate in the future:

Although union leaders and Wisconsin Democratic Senators are offering to accept the wage and benefit concessions Gov. Scott Walker is demanding, Republican Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald (R-Juneau) said today a bill taking away collective bargaining rights from public employees is not negotiable.

Democrats and union leaders said they're willing to agree to the parts of Walker's budget repair bill that would double their health insurance contributions and require them to contribute 5.8 percent of their salary to their pensions. However, the union leaders want to keep their collective bargaining rights.

"I have been informed that all state and local public employees – including teachers - have agreed to the financial aspects of Governor Walker's request," Sen. Jon Erpenbach (D-Waunakee) said. "This includes Walker's requested concessions on public employee health care and pension. In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed. This will solve the budget challenge. This is a real opportunity for us to come together and resolve the issue and move on. It is incumbent upon Governor Walker to seriously consider and hopefully accept this offer as soon as possible."

However, Fitzgerald said the terms of the bill are not negotiable, and he called upon Democrats who left the state this week to stall a vote on the bill to return to the Capitol.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/149986

[Wild Cobra]

Ok, so if we don't have an income tax, and we don't tax essentials, how would we pay for govt? (and yes I'm aware this would shrink gov and that is probably a feature and not a bug, however, not sure how you could even afford essential govt functions this way)
What do you mean?

There would be a tax on items like TV's, VCR's, etc. Change from no income tax, and to a sales type tax on all non essentials.

It just comes to what is classed as an essential and what isn't. The money would still be there. I'm all for "The Fair tax (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.25:)" with very minor changes.

[Yonivore]

:lol Yeah! How dare these workers request pension, or sick days, or retirement after working 30 years!?! What slackers!!
You obviously miss the point of the sign.

[RandomGuy]

Hah... the military would start shooting Americans in a second.

No, actually they wouldn't. The US military trained and indoctrinated the Egyptian military.

Kent state aside, I don't see that happening unless things really really started coming apart at the seams.

The military would face an extremely well-armed uprising, and would be sorely outnumbered were that to happen.

[boutons_deux]

"Kent state aside"

Kent State is not the best example. Much more indicative of law enforcment, now much more militarized, is the shooting of blacks in the Watts riots. Bull Connor is another example.

I have no doubt that, now with the highly inflamed, polarized environment, that the police, National Guard, and mercernaries would/will fire on US citizens.

There are Nazi SS Troops/blackshirt/jackboot/Vichy types in every society, ready to start killing fellow citizens when the authorities give the sign. And there are also the millions, like Germans, who would keep their heads down, keep quiet, rather than be "resistance" fighters.

[boutons_deux]

Leader Of Egyptian Unions To Wisconsin Protesters: ‘We Stand With You As You Stood With Us’

One of the most underreported stories about the pro-democracy movement in Egypt was the role of labor unions in the demonstrations, many of which were protesting against neoliberal right-wing economic policies just as much as they were protesting against the Mubarak dictatorship. During the uprising in that country, AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka praised the role of organized labor, saying, “The people’s movement for democracy in Egypt and the role unions are playing for freedom and worker rights inspires us and will not be forgotten.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/leader-egyptian-unions-wisconsin/

[Yonivore]

Interesting passage from a National Review article published yesterday.

Walker Holds His Ground (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/260222/walker-holds-his-ground-robert-costa)


“We are looking at legal options to compel the senators to come back,” Walker says. “They have no endgame. They don’t know what they are doing. They got caught up in the hysteria and decided to run, but that’s not how this works. You have got to be in the arena.”

Bringing up hot-button legislation while the Democrats are gone is another arrow in Walker’s quiver. Though the Wisconsin constitution requires three-fifths of the senate to be present to pass fiscal legislation, a simple majority of 17 members constitutes a quorum for other bills in the 33-seat state senate. So the 19 GOP senators who remain in Madison can pass any number of bills while their Democratic colleagues are on the lam, and Republicans are a majority in the assembly, too. “They can hold off, but there is a whole legislative agenda that Republicans in the senate and assembly can start acting on that only requires simple majorities,” Walker warns.“If they want to do their jobs, and have a say, they better show up.”
I hope he takes full advantage of the simple majority that remains at work in the legislature.

[boutons_deux]

May Yoni be crushed by the VRWC he cheers on.

[Yonivore]

May Yoni be crushed by the VRWC he cheers on.
:lmao

If by cheering on VRWC, you mean common sense; Yeah! Right on!

The public employees in Wisconsin are in an existential snit over Governor Walker's Budget Repair Bill -- an effort to eliminate a State debt/deficit that threatens the solvency of Wisconsin.

Here is what the bill proposes that has public employees displaying that "new civility" and comparing him to Hitler and Mubarek...


Ask government workers to pay half the cost of their pensions - still less than private employees pay for their pensions

Ask government workers to pay 12% of their own health insurance premiums - the national average for the private sector is over 20%

End collective bargaining for government unions for pensions and benefits. Allow bargaining only for raises that are less than inflation.

End forced union dues, collected by the state. Union dues would become voluntary.

Union members get to vote yearly on whether to keep their union.


I don't see anything about gassing them or gathering them up into concentration camps.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't see anything about gassing them or gathering them up into concentration camps.

Indeed. Not to mention that there was an election last November and the people made their choice then.

This is nothing more than a bunch of middle class government employees seeking to protect their own sinecures, granted by a process that should never exist for public employees.

Collective bargaining for public employees is antithetical to the democratic political process and should be summarily destroyed.

[boutons_deux]

"the people made their choice then"

the mandate was the classic "get the jobs and economy going" in a horrible economy plus the customary mid-term swing, NOT a mandate to destroy jobs.

[Yonivore]

"the people made their choice then"

the mandate was the classic "get the jobs and economy going" in a horrible economy plus the customary mid-term swing, NOT a mandate to destroy jobs.
The proposed legislation did not "destroy" one government job; it merely asked government employees to share the burden.

They are unwilling and, therefore, seem intent on destroying their own jobs. Good riddance; there are others (such as the protester carrying the sign with which LnGrrrR took exception) who would gladly work those jobs under the conditions proposed by Governor Walker.

[boutons_deux]

"it merely asked government employees to share the burden."

They already have yielded in the current fight, and over the past 2 years.

The VRWC causes the Banksters' Great Depression then the lower 98% has to pay for it.

[Yonivore]

"the people made their choice then"

the mandate was the classic "get the jobs and economy going" in a horrible economy plus the customary mid-term swing, NOT a mandate to destroy jobs.
Also, Walker won on a platform of reducing government spending and, it is my understanding, that bringing government salaries and entitlements more in line with the private sector was a part of that agenda.

So, from what I'm hearing and seeing, Walker is doing exactly what he proposed he would do during the campaign. I guess he does see this as a mandate...and, one he intends to follow through on.

Good for him. Right now, the majority of Wisconsins support him and his efforts.

[Yonivore]

"it merely asked government employees to share the burden."

They already have yield in the current fight, and over the past 2 years.
And still, they enjoy entitlements and salaries far above the State's averages. What is being proposed isn't out of line and, it certainly doesn't rise to the level of the absurd amount of "new civility" on display in Wisconsin right now.

[boutons_deux]

VRWC and its tea baggers goons swim in dishonesty and bad faith:

But Tea Party Nation and Mark Williams, the disgraced former chairman of Tea Party Express, who was forced to resign after making offensive racial comments, are calling for a more radical approach. In an email alert to supporters sent last night, Tea Party Nation promotes Williams’ “great idea” to impersonate SEIU organizers at upcoming labor rallies in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the union.

Williams lays out a highly dishonest and fairly involved scheme to have “plants” sign up on the SEIU website to be organizers for an upcoming rally, dress up in SEIU shirts, and to then make outrageous comments to reporters covering the events in order to “make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is”:

That link will take you to an SEIU page where you can sign up as an “organizer” for one of their upcoming major rallies to support the union goons in Wisconsin. Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures… signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us. [...]

Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines. Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/mark-williams-infiltrate-seiu/

And you know Fox Repug Propganda network will use the tea bagging liars' quotes.

[Yonivore]

VRWC and its tea baggers goons swim in dishonesty and bad faith:

But Tea Party Nation and Mark Williams, the disgraced former chairman of Tea Party Express, who was forced to resign after making offensive racial comments, are calling for a more radical approach. In an email alert to supporters sent last night, Tea Party Nation promotes Williams’ “great idea” to impersonate SEIU organizers at upcoming labor rallies in an attempt to embarrass and discredit the union.

Williams lays out a highly dishonest and fairly involved scheme to have “plants” sign up on the SEIU website to be organizers for an upcoming rally, dress up in SEIU shirts, and to then make outrageous comments to reporters covering the events in order to “make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is”:

That link will take you to an SEIU page where you can sign up as an “organizer” for one of their upcoming major rallies to support the union goons in Wisconsin. Here is what I am doing in Sacramento, where they are holding a 5:30 PM event this coming Tuesday: (1) I signed up as an organizer (2) with any luck they will contact me and I will have an “in” (3) in or not I will be there and am asking as many other people as can get there to come with, all of us in SEIU shirts (those who don’t have them we can possibly buy some from vendors likely to be there) (4) we are going to target the many TV cameras and reporters looking for comments from the members there (5) we will approach the cameras to make good pictures… signs under our shirts that say things like “screw the taxpayer!” and “you OWE me!” to be pulled out for the camera (timing is important because the signs will be taken away from us. [...]

Our goal is to make the gathering look as greedy and goonish as we know that it is, ding their credibility with the media and exploit the lazy reporters who just want dramatic shots and outrageous quotes for headlines. Even if it becomes known that we are plants the quotes and pictures will linger as defacto truth.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/mark-williams-infiltrate-seiu/

And you know Fox Repug Propganda network will use the tea bagging liars' quotes.
So, are the proposed changes in the Governor's bill reasonable or not? And, if not, why not?

[LnGrrrR]

What do you mean?

There would be a tax on items like TV's, VCR's, etc. Change from no income tax, and to a sales type tax on all non essentials.

It just comes to what is classed as an essential and what isn't. The money would still be there. I'm all for "The Fair tax (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:h.r.25:)" with very minor changes.

Right, but those items usually already have sales tax. How would you propose to make up the lost money from the income tax? Would tax rates on things like TVs just shoot up to 200% or something?

[Yonivore]

Right, but those items usually already have sales tax. How would you propose to make up the lost money from the income tax? Would tax rates on things like TVs just shoot up to 200% or something?
Actually, the way I understand it, the tax would increase by about 22%. But, the embedded cost of current tax structure (being eliminated by transitioning to the Fair Tax) all along the path of that television's production would be reduced by roughly the same 22% so, in theory, the price you see at the Best Buy would not change appreciably.

That's what the Fair Tax proposes.

The argument then arises that manufacturers will just not pass the cost savings along to consumers; at which point, Fair Tax proponents believe competition will be introduced into the market and an informed consumer will force the television manufacturers and retailers to do just that.

[LnGrrrR]

You obviously miss the point of the sign.

I didn't, I just the thought the sign was dumb. The author of the sign implies how good the teachers have it, but "sick days"? Don't most jobs have that? And don't a good amount of teachers get retirement and/or pension?

[LnGrrrR]

Actually, the way I understand it, the tax would increase by about 22%. But, the embedded cost of current tax structure (being eliminated by transitioning to the Fair Tax) all along the path of that television's production would be reduced by roughly the same 22% so, in theory, the price you see at the Best Buy would not change appreciably.

That's what the Fair Tax proposes.

The argument then arises that manufacturers will just not pass the cost savings along to consumers; at which point, Fair Tax proponents believe competition will be introduced into the market and an informed consumer will force the television manufacturers and retailers to do just that.

Thanks Yoni. Two further questions: wouldnt any sales tax system be extremely volatile during economic downturns?

Also, wouldn't any state be able to impose their own income tax if the federal one was removed?

[RandomGuy]

http://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/host.madison.com/content/tncms/assets/editorial/a/17/c88/a17c8846-3c8b-11e0-a749-001cc4c03286-revisions/4d6065b3cfb45.image.jpg
Here's what that cartoonist had to say...


Yeah, I bet this doesn't end well for the unions.

Wow, that was a political cartoon with a conservative point of view that was actually kinda funny. I'm shocked.

[RandomGuy]

Thanks Yoni. Two further questions: wouldnt any sales tax system be extremely volatile during economic downturns?

Also, wouldn't any state be able to impose their own income tax if the federal one was removed?

Not sure when bizarro boutons will get back to it, so I'll take a shot:

Yes, sales taxes (along with the "VAT" type taxes) would be VERY volatile in downturns.

Many states already have income taxes, so the answer to the second question is yes as well.

[boutons_deux]

"We Have a Fire in the House of Labor. We Are Here to Put it Out": Wisconsin Firefighters and Police Officers Join Massive Protests Against Anti-Union Bill

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/21/we_have_a_fire_in_the

===========

This is not about money. It's about power.

If the Repug assholes win, it will be a precedent for the VRWC to push the same power grab elsewhere.

[LnGrrrR]

Not sure when bizarro boutons will get back to it, so I'll take a shot:

Yes, sales taxes (along with the "VAT" type taxes) would be VERY volatile in downturns.

Many states already have income taxes, so the answer to the second question is yes as well.

Thanks RG. Wondering what they think of state income taxes. And I figured any sort of revenue system that focused mainly on sales taxes wouldn't be sustainable/predictable.

[Yonivore]

I didn't, I just the thought the sign was dumb. The author of the sign implies how good the teachers have it, but "sick days"? Don't most jobs have that?
The unemployed don't and, yes, many jobs don't offer sick time. If you don't work, you don't get paid.


And don't a good amount of teachers get retirement and/or pension?
Yep, something that isn't threatened. Which was he point of the sign. Government unions are whining about losing things they are privileged to have and failing to recognize they're jeopardizing things others would love to have...like sick leave, pension, and an early retirement.

[Yonivore]

Thanks Yoni. Two further questions: wouldnt any sales tax system be extremely volatile during economic downturns?
The sales tax in Williamson County, Texas has stood at 8.25% for as long as I can remember...good times and bad.

If you set the tax, legislatively, like the income tax, there shouldn't be that much volatility.


Also, wouldn't any state be able to impose their own income tax if the federal one was removed?
States are already free to institute income taxes. So what?

[LnGrrrR]

The unemployed don't and, yes, many jobs don't offer sick time. If you don't work, you don't get paid.

I just don't think that "sick days" are some workplace extravagance. Teachers are paid on salary, so for every sick day they take, there's a decent chance they might be working late as well. It's not like teachers get overtime.

I mean, it's sick days we are talking about, not stock options.

I understand people think they're making too much money. But if teachers lose those benefits, won't that attract less teachers to the career field? Are the citizens ok with that? Are those teachers particularly unskilled?

Also, those teachers took that job under the assumption they would receive those benefits. Pretty unfair to cut them now, unless you grandfather in those laws. I can tell you if the gov cut military retirement you'd have a lot of pissed off soldiers in the middle of their career.

[LnGrrrR]

The sales tax in Williamson County, Texas has stood at 8.25% for as long as I can remember...good times and bad.

If you set the tax, legislatively, like the income tax, there shouldn't be that much volatility.

You misunderstood me. I meant that, in hard times, people will buy less. The tax revenue itself would be volatile.

And I wasn't sure if you were against all income taxes, or just the federal one. Thanks for the distinction.

[ElNono]

sick time is pretty common around here, even for non-union jobs...

[Yonivore]

You misunderstood me. I meant that, in hard times, people will buy less. The tax revenue itself would be volatile.
Yep, just as income tax revenues are volatile. Government would have to prioritize their spending -- just like the rest of us do when times are lean.


And I wasn't sure if you were against all income taxes, or just the federal one. Thanks for the distinction.
I'm opposed to State income taxes, as well but, that's not what you asked.

[boutons_deux]

And according to a Wisconsin police union president, whether the police agree or disagree with their governor's politics, they would "absolutely" carry out any order given to them ... even if that order included using force against their fellow Americans gathered in peaceful protest.


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/21/exclusive-police-would-absolutely-carry-out-order-to-clear-wisc-capitol-union-president-tells-raw/print/

[Yonivore]

I just don't think that "sick days" are some workplace extravagance. Teachers are paid on salary, so for every sick day they take, there's a decent chance they might be working late as well. It's not like teachers get overtime.

I mean, it's sick days we are talking about, not stock options.
I think you're making too much out of the sick leave comment. No one is suggesting sick leave is extravagant. What (as I took it) the sign says it that public employees (teachers included) are whining about losing things that most of the work force don't enjoy while taking for granted things others don't take for granted...such as sick leave, pensions, and retirement benefits; the latter two of which are pretty much up to private sector employees to provide on their own.

I understand people think they're making too much money. But if teachers lose those benefits, won't that attract less teachers to the career field? Are the citizens ok with that? Are those teachers particularly unskilled?
If the proposed legislation becomes law, teachers and other Wisconsin public employees will still be making more than the average Wisconsin and they'll enjoy better benefits and retirement packages than the average Wisconsin. Some would argue, they'd still be overpaid, as well but, that's for the teachers to decide.


Also, those teachers took that job under the assumption they would receive those benefits. Pretty unfair to cut them now, unless you grandfather in those laws. I can tell you if the gov cut military retirement you'd have a lot of pissed off soldiers in the middle of their career.
When the money runs out, it runs out; cuts now or nothing later. The point being made is the current structure is unsustainable. Period. Wisconsin cannot afford the deals that were struck. Contracts won't matter when the well is dry...so, while it may be viewed as unfair, some would argue that 1) a little pain now will avoid a great deal of pain later on and, 2) these are deals the government had no business entering into, to begin with; which, I believe the collective bargaining, union voting rules, and automatic deduction of dues provisions are intended to address.

No more having unions take the dues they garnish from employee wages to lobby the politicians that voted in the ridiculous entitlements to begin with.

And, you want to talk about honoring agreements now? Now, after the federal government completely abandoned the financial obligations GM had to its stockholders in favor of the unions?

Don't make me laugh. On this fight...and, if Governor Walker prevails (which is why Obama is so interested -- and acting so unpresidential)...on future fights, unions and ridiculously compensated public employees stand to be brought back to earth.

I think that's a good thing. I understand you may disagree. Oh well.

[Yonivore]

Ooops! Looks like public union employees aren't the only ones jeopardizing their careers in this foolish exercise...

Statement Regarding UW Health Physicians (http://www.uwhealth.org/news/statement-regarding-uw-health-physicians/30653)


There are reports on both social media and news websites that a number of UW Health physicians were signing "medical excuse" notes for protesters at the Capitol on Feb. 19. This involves a few individuals out of the nearly 1,300 physicians at UW Health.

These UW Health physicians were acting on their own and without the knowledge or approval of UW Health. These charges are very serious and in response, University of Wisconsin School of Medicine and Public Health and University of Wisconsin Medical Foundation, the UW Health entities that employ the physicians, have immediately launched an investigation of the reported behavior.

The investigation will identify which UW Health physicians were involved and whether their behavior constituted violations of medical ethics or University of Wisconsin and UW Health policies and work rules. The investigation and any potential future action will follow the established procedures of the University of Wisconsin. Any future disciplinary action taken will be considered a personnel matter and will be treated with the confidentiality required by University of Wisconsin policies.

hQRcNBWTOr8ipqEzJpeqis

[George Gervin's Afro]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

[Yonivore]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?
In the post just prior to this one, I refer to them as "public employee unions." Teachers have distinguished themselves in this protest (and seem to be a particularly insidious bunch) but, to be sure -- all public union employees of Wisconsin are in the fray.

What's your point?

[Winehole23]

who does yoni only mention teachers in his union bashing? Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4990078&postcount=92

[ElNono]

Do you think he knows firefighters and the police are protesting this as well?

Are they protesting? That would be interesting seeing this reform doesn't affect them at this time...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Are they protesting? That would be interesting seeing this reform doesn't affect them at this time...

I made the comment after seeing them walking with the protesters...

[ElNono]

I made the comment after seeing them walking with the protesters...

Fair enough... I wonder what Walker thinks about that...

[Yonivore]

Fair enough... I wonder what Walker thinks about that...
What should he think? As long as they aren't playing hooky or using state resources, why should he care?

[ElNono]

What should he think? As long as they aren't playing hooky or using state resources, why should he care?

Because he cut a deal with them so their collective bargaining rights wouldn't be touched, unlike the other public unions...
I'm not sure the exception also applies to retirement/healthcare though...

But it's a huge concession nonetheless... it basically means their pay wouldn't be tied to the CPI...

[Yonivore]

A Brief, Illustrated History of the Public Sector Unions That, Together With The Democrat Party, Are Waging War on the Taxpayer (http://directorblue.blogspot.com/2011/02/brief-illustrated-history-of-public.html)

[Yonivore]

Because he cut a deal with them so their collective bargaining rights wouldn't be touched, unlike the other public unions...
I'm not sure the exception also applies to retirement/healthcare though...

But it's a huge concession nonetheless... it basically means their pay wouldn't be tied to the CPI...
Q&A: Walker said benefit cuts better than job cuts (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110213/APC06/102130546/Q-A-Walker-said-benefit-cuts-better-than-job-cuts)


Why exclude firefighters and police officers, and why include corrections officers?

We treat fire and police historically differently because they perform very different jobs. Fire and police protection, if you don't do anything else, that's the utmost priority. Practically speaking in terms of the contingency plans, they're very much integrated around having the support of local law enforcement and fire departments. We have contingency plans to allow us to make up for any change in terms of work shortage or anything else that might happen on the state level.

Looking at the bottom line in terms of what we need to back that up, what we need in terms of the National Guard, when it's at a correction facility. We can handle all that. We don't have the capacity if every fire and police department in the state had a problem.

I don't expect any interruption in service. I want to stress that. We prepare for the worst and expect and hope for the best.

Not sure I agree with his rationale but, the question has been asked of the Governor and answered.

[ElNono]

I don't particularly like public sector unions, but I do wonder why this wasn't outlawed when the GOP had full control of both the executive and congress, especially if it's so damaging to taxpayers as advertised...

[George Gervin's Afro]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new

[ElNono]

Q&A: Walker said benefit cuts better than job cuts (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20110213/APC06/102130546/Q-A-Walker-said-benefit-cuts-better-than-job-cuts)

Not sure I agree with his rationale but, the question has been asked of the Governor and answered.

I don't necessarily hold it against Walker that he cut that deal (although what's good for the goose should be good for the gander).

I just can't see him being happy to see those guys protesting seeing they're seemingly unaffected by this reform.

[ElNono]

On the other hand, I can see where the unions might be afraid that the exclusion is only a temporary measure...

[Marcus Bryant]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new

True. The leaves and not the roots.

[Marcus Bryant]

Though "war" as in you have to contribute something for your otherwise generous taxpayer-funded benefits is a bit much.

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, why aren't we burning down the entire American educational system as it is? Often we see reports, in excruciating detail how miserable the performance of this monstrosity is, agree that something must change, and then...nothing, other than continuing to shovel piles of money its way. If pure funding solves all problems, American K-12 education would be the envy of the world. The pedagogues of Wisconsin should have their compensation tied to some reasonable measure of success in instruction. Of course, judging by their reaction to rather reasonable proposals in light of budgetary constraints, this wouldn't go over well.

That's the real story here, one that nobody cares to entertain.

[Wild Cobra]

Right, but those items usually already have sales tax. How would you propose to make up the lost money from the income tax? Would tax rates on things like TVs just shoot up to 200% or something?
No. They would need an approximate 20% tax on them besides the state sales tax.

[Wild Cobra]

I didn't, I just the thought the sign was dumb. The author of the sign implies how good the teachers have it, but "sick days"? Don't most jobs have that? And don't a good amount of teachers get retirement and/or pension?
LOL...

You missed the point.

[Wild Cobra]

Not sure when bizarro boutons will get back to it, so I'll take a shot:

Yes, sales taxes (along with the "VAT" type taxes) would be VERY volatile in downturns.

Many states already have income taxes, so the answer to the second question is yes as well.
So are income taxes when people lose jobs.

Any tax system is volatile. Blame the states and federal government for spending all they can during the good times, then try to squeeze more out of us when the economy tanks. During good times, there is no excuse for deficits. the debt should be paid down. not grow. Period.

[ElNono]

Further, why aren't we burning down the entire American educational system as it is? Often we see reports, in excruciating detail how miserable the performance of this monstrosity is, agree that something must change, and then...nothing, other than continuing to shovel piles of money its way. If pure funding solves all problems, American K-12 education would be the envy of the world. The pedagogues of Wisconsin should have their compensation tied to some reasonable measure of success in instruction. Of course, judging by their reaction to rather reasonable proposals in light of budgetary constraints, this wouldn't go over well.

That's the real story here, one that nobody cares to entertain.

The real question is how you do measure success in a way that isn't conductive to gaming the system to obtain more funding. You see children today 'coached' by teachers to pass a test so the school can get more/keep the funding. It's literally coaching to pass a test, not actually educating.

Then you have the fact that the system is modeled basically to allow kids to do whatever they want. It doesn't help that parents don't seemingly want to do parenting anymore either. It's definitely a complex problem without an easy solution.

[Wild Cobra]

The GOP has declared war on teachers... nothing new
It's not a war on teachers, but the realization that pension systems and the really nice benefit packages cannot continue. They exceed what you find in the private sector. On top of that, nobody is asking for current employed to give up what they have, only new hires not getting as great of deals. With life expectancies what they are, to work 30 years and get 100% your wages and live another 40...

Get real.

Who pays for it?

[ElNono]

On top of that, nobody is asking for current employed to give up what they have, only new hires not getting as great of deals.

Is the deal really like that? I was under the impression that some of what's being proposed like the healthcare/benefits portion would go in effect immediately for everybody.

[boutons_deux]

On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested. Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished. This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.

http://newsjunkiepost.com/2011/02/20/may-1933-hitler-abolishes-unions/

[Marcus Bryant]

Godwin's Law holds.

[boutons_deux]

Bullshit.

What happened in Germany is exactly what is happening in UCA. That is not to say the Repugs/VRWC are Nazis.

The parallel is that autocrats, authoritarians push to ELIMINATE all opposition and dissent. Remember the dubya eliminationist Repugs were hallucinatings about a permanent Repug majority?

The Fox Repug Propahanda network, the VRWC's Ministry of Information, certainly distorts, revises history, and lies as thoroughly as anything out of Germany or Russia.

[Yonivore]

Godwin's Law holds.
boutons is exempt from Godwin's Law. Hell, he's exempt from most of the reality-based world.

[boutons_deux]

A wonderful plan to undersell taxpayers assets to private owners, and why not to your friends, familly, and financiers like Kock Bros? (That's how dubya made his $17M. The taxpayer-funded baseball stadium was given to an investor group that included dubya because of his name)

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

http://www.newdeal20.org/2011/02/21/how-walkers-wisconsin-plan-allows-for-the-selling-of-energy-assets-with-no-bids-36483/

[Yonivore]

A wonderful plan to undersell taxpayers assets to private owners, and why not to your friends, familly, and financiers like Kock Bros? (That's how dubya made his $17M. The taxpayer-funded baseball stadium was given to an investor group that included dubya because of his name)

16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).

http://www.newdeal20.org/2011/02/21/how-walkers-wisconsin-plan-allows-for-the-selling-of-energy-assets-with-no-bids-36483/
Actually, bd, Bush never owned any interest in the stadium. It is a city-owned property, leased to the Rangers.

[boutons_deux]

You Lie

The facts are well known. Do you get your from Fox?

"After working on his father's successful 1988 presidential campaign, Bush learned from fellow Yale alumnus William DeWitt, Jr., that family friend Eddie Chiles wanted to sell the Texas Rangers baseball franchise along with the new sports dome; built on land acquired under eminent domain law and built under funding financed through taxpayers' funds backed by a bond issued for its debt. The new home of the Texas Rangers is still being contested in court by the original landowner who has not received payment for the land. The sports dome has not yet been paid off with the tax increase enacted to pay off the bond. The selling of the baseball team included the new stadium, which accounts for the huge profits the investors received. The benefits to the taxpayers or the landowner from their contributions are unknown. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_life_of_George_W._Bush

The Harken deal really stunk, too. Of course, the SEC would never touch a East Coast establishment like the Bush family.

[Marcus Bryant]

How long until we get the Bush family colluded with Hitler post?

[Yonivore]

You Lie
You know, fuck you. Even if I were wrong, which I'm not; doesn't mean I'm lying. People are mistaken all the time. That doesn't make them liars...

The Ballpark at Arlington, now named Ameriquest stadium because they purchased naming rights, is wholly owned and operated by the City of Arlington through the "Arlington Sports Facilities Development, Inc.," a division of the city's Financial & Management Resources Department.

Your source is wrong -- I'm not saying you lie -- George W. Bush never owned any part of the publicly owned facility.

The Stadium is leased to the Rangers organization.

By the way, I'm completely opposed to publicly funded sports arenas of any kind. I think taxpayers who approve these deals are stupid. I think sports teams owners should build, own, maintain, and operate their own fucking stadiums.

[Yonivore]

How long until we get the Bush family colluded with Hitler post?
I think Bushitler is a bd-invented colloquialism.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well, it's out there, and boutdog will find it.

[LnGrrrR]

I think that's a good thing. I understand you may disagree. Oh well.

Actually, I think you brought up valid points. You also acknowledged that those in the system may think it unfair.

[Yonivore]

Actually, I think you brought up valid points. You also acknowledged that those in the system may think it unfair.
I guess we'll have to wait and see. However, it is starting to appear as if the Governor may well prevail in this fight.

And, if he does, I think other states will follow suit.

[LnGrrrR]

It's definitely an interesting political battle. I think both sides are somewhat "right". On one hand, taxpayers are hurting, and it is understandable they'd want to recoup some money.

On the other hand, these amenities were promised to those teachers, and who willingly accepts a reduction in pay/benefits? And if they just give in to this battle, what happens if they are pushed again to give up salary/benefits?

It's alot like sports salaries, really. Stupid owners overpay for mid level players, but you won't see the players union accept a smaller contract. (I know there are differences between public/private, just using analogies)

[Yonivore]

Here's a private union worker that is fed up with his public employee counterparts...

State Workers in Wisconsin See a Fraying of Union Bonds (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22union.xml)


"...who willingly accepts a reduction in pay/benefits?"
Those who otherwise lose their jobs entirely; that's who.

[LnGrrrR]

Here's a private union worker that is fed up with his public employee counterparts...

State Workers in Wisconsin See a Fraying of Union Bonds (http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22union.xml)


Those who otherwise lose their jobs entirely; that's who.

Well yes, but I didn't think many of these people were at the chopping block.

[cdcast]

This isn't just about collective bargaining and union busting.

According to one of the Democrats in hiding, this bill would also put the governor in charge of the state's Medicaid. Imagine that if you're middle class or poor in Wisconsin. Haven't seen anyone mention this yet.

[Capt Bringdown]

On the other hand, these amenities were promised to those teachers, and who willingly accepts a reduction in pay/benefits? And if they just give in to this battle, what happens if they are pushed again to give up salary/benefits?


Teachers and other public workers unions in WI do, they've agreed to make health insurance and pension contributions. And, a move of solidarity, firefighters and police have also apparently agreed to make contributions, even though they are exempted from Walker's attack:


We are saying, as firefighters and police, we are willing to concede, even though you are telling us you don’t have to, to give 5.8% pension and 12.8% into our healthcare insurance to help save the collective bargaining agreement that we have had for 75 years in the state of Wisconsin.

I think that we have to be clear, that this is not just an attack on unions, this is an attack on the middle-class.
This is a clear attack on the rights the middle-class has to talk to their employers about hours, wages and working conditions. We just cannot stand by and let that happen.

Mahlon Mitchell, President of the Wisconsin Professional Firefighters Association.


"We Have a Fire in the House of Labor. We Are Here to Put it Out": Wisconsin Firefighters and Police Officers Join Massive Protests Against Anti-Union Bill (http://www.democracynow.org/2011/2/21/we_have_a_fire_in_the)

[boutons_deux]

Walker's power play is NOT about money or (fabricated) deficits.

It's about intimidating and destroying union power, leaving the compromised govt and corporations unopposed in their strategy to impoverish employees while stuffing corporate mgmt's and investors' pockets.

This battle is pivotal. If the VRWC wins in WI and OH, it will spread union/pension/employee busting everywhere, public and private sector.

[George Gervin's Afro]

This is about the GOP breaking the knees of organized labor. Of course no one on the right will acknowledge this.. it is all about the budget..

[Capt Bringdown]

This battle is pivotal. If the VRWC wins in WI and OH, it will spread union/pension/employee busting everywhere, public and private sector.

I hope I'm wrong, but I think we're past the point of this being a pivotal battle.

Certainly this thread is inaccurately titled as far as teachers are concerned. It's not Repubs vs Unions - both parties are marching to the same neoliberal drumbeat that says public education is broken and can only be fixed by market forces. Lotsa bi-partisansy stuff like privatization, charter schools, mayoral control, high-stakes standardized testing, school closures, increased class sizes etc are in the pipeline. A race to the bottom in other words.


The irony of Obama’s ‘help’ for Wisconsin teachers (http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2011/02/21/the-less-discussed-part-of-walkers-wisconsin-plan-no-bid-energy-assets-firesales/)
If Obama can help teachers unions keep their collective bargaining rights from disappearing under Republican assault, good for him and them. That doesn’t eliminate the harm his policies have done already to teachers and their profession.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh, the poor pedagogues. They should be free to continue to provide substandard schooling without penalty.

[boutons_deux]

The Repugs/conservatives don't give a shit about quality of school teaching, or deficits, or budgets.

The VRWC war on unions is a pure power play.

[boutons_deux]

The Last Time Scott Walker Went Union Busting, He Was Overruled And Wasted Taxpayer Dollars

The last time Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) went after public sector unions it had “disastrous results” for him and for taxpayers.

As Milwaukee County Executive in 2009, Walker tried to get rid of the unionized security guards at the county courthouse and replace them with contractors, which he promised would save the county money. The County Board rejected the idea, but in March of 2010 Walker “unilaterally ordered it,” claiming there was a budget emergency. Walker hired the British security contractor Wackenhut — of Kabul Embassy sex scandal fame — to replace the guards. Unfortunately for Walker and Milwaukee taxpayers, an arbiter later ruled that Walker had overstepped his authority, and ordered the county to reinstate the unionized workers, pay backwages, and pay tens-of-thousands of dollars in arbiter fees. As MSNBC’s Racheal Maddow pointed out last night, Walker’s “dress rehersal” for his current union busting effort may end up costing Milwaukee taxpayers an extra half a million dollars.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/22/scott-walker-union-wackenhut/

[LnGrrrR]

Oh, the poor pedagogues. They should be free to continue to provide substandard schooling without penalty.

I can understand that sentiment. I can also understand the sentiment that the teachers don't want to give up a little cash, in fear that they might later be asked to give up a little more, then a little more, etc etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

I can understand that sentiment. I can also understand the sentiment that the teachers don't want to give up a little cash, in fear that they might later be asked to give up a little more, then a little more, etc etc.

If we were discussing the postal service nobody would give a shit, imo.

Public schooling is like the USPS, except everyone retains a nostalgic affinity for it. In its current conception, it is ill-suited for these times. The US expends ungodly sums on it and gets horrible results (or perhaps pleasant ones if you design a program to acclimate the population to an industrialized economy).

We should run out the pedagogues, burn the entire thing down, and start over. The real story here is that a slight change in benefits for them is somehow a major story. The real story is that they even continue to maintain employment based on the performance of this system.

[Supergirl]

Where's that article that's going around showing how the five states that BAN workers right to organize are all DEAD LAST in education? It's true. Oh, and Texas is one of those five states.

Does being anti-worker makes people more stupid? Or are stupid people just more likely to be anti-union? You decide.

[Capt Bringdown]

Public schooling is like the USPS, except everyone retains a nostalgic affinity for it. In its current conception, it is ill-suited for these times. The US expends ungodly sums on it and gets horrible results (or perhaps pleasant ones if you design a program to acclimate the population to an industrialized economy).


All fashionable ideas amongst reactionaries. "Horrible results," "ungodly sums" just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Grow up and stop uncritically gulping down Fox News talking points.


We should run out the pedagogues, burn the entire thing down, and start over. The real story here is that a slight change in benefits for them is somehow a major story. The real story is that they even continue to maintain employment based on the performance of this system.

The real story is that you keep continuing to repeat the lie that this is about a slight change in benefits. Can you at least try not to be such a jackass?

[Marcus Bryant]

All fashionable ideas amongst reactionaries. "Horrible results," "ungodly sums" just shows you don't know what you're talking about. Grow up and stop uncritically gulping down Fox News talking points.


Yawn. Grow up and stop addressing points you disagree with by entering your animus about Fox News. I have no idea how that outlet is covering this little charade, nor really care. I'll leave that to simpletons such as yourself.




The real story is that you keep continuing to repeat the lie that this is about a slight change in benefits. Can you at least try not to be such a jackass?

Can I try not to post thoughts that might unsettle you?

Let me think.

Denied.

-MB

[boutons_deux]

AFL-CIO Polls Show Wisconsin Supports Protestors, Opposes Walker


http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-02-22-Blumenthal-20110222aflchartsmall.png

The got the results they wanted.

Anybody got any polls showing the opposite?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

In the post just prior to this one, I refer to them as "public employee unions." Teachers have distinguished themselves in this protest (and seem to be a particularly insidious bunch) but, to be sure -- all public union employees of Wisconsin are in the fray.

What's your point?

I am guessing that its you use the term public employee rather then talk about the cops and firefighters because cop and firefighter bashing puts the right in an unfavorable light.

It goes against the old law and order schtick that Nixon sold us.

Its the same thing as using inflammatory terms like ungodly sums and horrible results.

What i really like is MB then running around talking about pedagogues as if the right has some monopoly on levity and context.

Police states and roving bands oh my.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yawn. Grow up and stop addressing points you disagree with by entering your animus about Fox News. I have no idea how that outlet is covering this little charade, nor really care. I'll leave that to simpletons such as yourself.




Can I try not to post thoughts that might unsettle you?

Let me think.

Denied.

-MB

Ahh appealing to male machismo and fixating on a single portion of his argument.

Rush Limbaugh wrote, "Ditto, Rush," whose title lends to the premise that his audience just parrots him.

But rather than talk about what he is saying you call him a child. Nice.

Oh you are so brash. You give out the hard truths now don't you?

Your shtick is shit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Now disagreement is "inflammatory" and "brash."

What's that about a tired shtick? Yours is the oldest one in the book.

[Marcus Bryant]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps institutional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

[LnGrrrR]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps institutional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

But will reducing benefits/salary create better schooling opportunities? Or will it just recoup some money, without doing anything for education?

Maybe the teachers ARE being paid too much. I don't think it's wrong for the people to say that. I also don't think it's wrong that teachers don't want a cut in pay/benefits.

Are there any statistics about education in WI that people have brought up? Is the schooling there much worse than other states?

[boutons_deux]

AFL-CIO Polls Show Wisconsin Supports Protestors, Opposes Walker


http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2011-02-22-Blumenthal-20110222aflchartsmall.png

The got the results they wanted.

Anybody got any polls showing the opposite?

Here's a highly credible polling org that guaranteed a McLiar victory:

NYT calls out Rasmussen for conservative bias in Wisconsin poll

The New York Times accused Rasmussen Reports of lacing a recent survey on the Wisconsin protests with conservative bias, elevating longstanding critiques about the polling firm's credibility.

The survey, released Monday, asked four questions about the Wisconsin clash over Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget plan, which would strip the collective bargaining rights of public employees and force them to pay more for benefits. It found that 48 percent of "likely voters" agreed with Walker, while 38 percent supported his opponents.

Nate Silver of the Times' FiveThirtyEight blog is a trusted polling expert who came to fame after correctly predicting the outcomes of 49 of 50 states in the 2008 election. In a Monday evening posting, he took issue with the manner in which several of Rasmussen's questions were asked, decreeing that they were designed to engender a pro-Walker bias.

Two of the questions, Silver wrote, misrepresented the nature of the opposition in a "blatant" attempt to diminish sympathy for them before asking the respondent whose side they were on. The penultimate question was "a talking point posed as a question," he declared.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/22/nyt-calls-out-rasmussen-for-conservative-bias-in-wisconsin-poll/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[Marcus Bryant]

But will reducing benefits/salary create better schooling opportunities? Or will it just recoup some money, without doing anything for education?

Maybe the teachers ARE being paid too much. I don't think it's wrong for the people to say that. I also don't think it's wrong that teachers don't want a cut in pay/benefits.

Are there any statistics about education in WI that people have brought up? Is the schooling there much worse than other states?


Seems to be a place to start:

http://www.familyimpactseminars.org/index.asp?p=1&page=site
http://www.familyimpactseminars.org/s_wifis11exec.pdf

[boutons_deux]

busting the teacher unions is a great way to reform education, and of course education reform is exactly what the Repugs want (their Pell cuts will remove 1000s from college, and of course they gave govt education loans to private banks with govt guarantees)

Repugs don't give a shit about education.

[TeyshaBlue]

Here's a highly credible polling org that guaranteed a McLiar victory:

NYT calls out Rasmussen for conservative bias in Wisconsin poll

The New York Times accused Rasmussen Reports of lacing a recent survey on the Wisconsin protests with conservative bias, elevating longstanding critiques about the polling firm's credibility.

The survey, released Monday, asked four questions about the Wisconsin clash over Republican Gov. Scott Walker's budget plan, which would strip the collective bargaining rights of public employees and force them to pay more for benefits. It found that 48 percent of "likely voters" agreed with Walker, while 38 percent supported his opponents.

Nate Silver of the Times' FiveThirtyEight blog is a trusted polling expert who came to fame after correctly predicting the outcomes of 49 of 50 states in the 2008 election. In a Monday evening posting, he took issue with the manner in which several of Rasmussen's questions were asked, decreeing that they were designed to engender a pro-Walker bias.

Two of the questions, Silver wrote, misrepresented the nature of the opposition in a "blatant" attempt to diminish sympathy for them before asking the respondent whose side they were on. The penultimate question was "a talking point posed as a question," he declared.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/22/nyt-calls-out-rasmussen-for-conservative-bias-in-wisconsin-poll/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

lol...now question phrasing is important to you. Ok.:rolleyes

[boutons_deux]

yes, of course, loaded/leading/false-choice/bad-choice questions/choices are not legit in unbiased polling.

[TeyshaBlue]

yes, of course, loaded/leading/false-choice/bad-choice questions/choices are not legit in unbiased polling.

Of course.:lmao

"No matter what the percentages are, there are definitely Repugs who believe these fantasies. the defense rests.
Go twiddle around with +/- errors and question phrasing."

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4604407&postcount=16

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So far we have the great Satans of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh mentioned, instead of addressing the point that American education is in miserable shape and that perhaps institutional change is what is needed. Instead of daring to investigate this, the standard partisan political appeals are made.

Oh give me a fucking break. Your blanket dismissal again does not even address the point that all too many people just reiterate that which they are told.

that has nothing to do with education as much as it has to do with human nature.

you try to play this role of outsider but all you do is interject the 'conservative' ideology with 'libertarian' ideals.

what makes you worse is you just make generalizations and refuse ot even address the point. I made no comment as to Limbaughs ideology, I just said that he wrote a book whose title is based on the phenomenon I am talking about.

You can jsut try and dismiss it out of hand but to me it is a huge fucking problem. you see the exact same thing on the other side with boutons.

and spare me the I know you are but what am i routine. i am adverserial but i do it because i find that it makes people take a stand and brings them out of there apathy.

i am an asshole and i am fine with that.

you try and be an maverick outside of the political context but then you jsut become transparent when you start with the "i ask the tough questions, and people jsut do not want to hear about it.'

its the same old tired bullshit that you hear from preachers and political pundits the world round.

it rings hollow.

[DarrinS]

Oh give me a fucking break. Your blanket dismissal again does not even address the point that all too many people just reiterate that which they are told.

that has nothing to do with education as much as it has to do with human nature.

you try to play this role of outsider but all you do is interject the 'conservative' ideology with 'libertarian' ideals.

what makes you worse is you just make generalizations and refuse ot even address the point. I made no comment as to Limbaughs ideology, I just said that he wrote a book whose title is based on the phenomenon I am talking about.

You can jsut try and dismiss it out of hand but to me it is a huge fucking problem. you see the exact same thing on the other side with boutons.

and spare me the I know you are but what am i routine. i am adverserial but i do it because i find that it makes people take a stand and brings them out of there apathy.

i am an asshole and i am fine with that.

you try and be an maverick outside of the political context but then you jsut become transparent when you start with the "i ask the tough questions, and people jsut do not want to hear about it.'

its the same old tired bullshit that you hear from preachers and political pundits the world round.

it rings hollow.


What an epic meltdown. :lmao

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes, I form my own opinions and I express them. Thanks for noticing.

[Supergirl]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-line/2011/02/why_wont_governor_walker_accep.html

Why won't Governor Walker accept unions' offer and declare victory?
By Greg Sargent | February 22, 2011; 12:12 PM ET

It's worth stating as clearly as possible that Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is refusing to take a route out of the standoff that, while not giving him everything he wants, would allow him to declare victory over the public employee unions and even to assert that he had ground them down into submission.

As you know, the Wisconsin public employee unions have agreed to accept the wage and benefit reductions that Walker has asked for, in exchange for dropping his proposal to roll back their bargaining rights. Walker has refused.

Why? It isn't clear that there's any public support for this position in Wisconsin. One key finding from today's poll by the Dem firm Greenberg Quinlan Rosner is this one showing overwhelming support for this compromise:

Nearly three fourths think the workers should keep their collective bargaining rights if they agree to concessions on health care and retirement. Even 47 percent of Republicans believe this. Yes, this is a Dem firm and the poll was bankrolled by unions, but if this is anything close to an accurate representation of public opinion, it's quite remarkable.

The real tell here, the one that clearly reveals the real game plan, is that Walker won't accept this compromise despite apparently overwhelming support for it in his own state. After all, so doing would allow him to declare victory. He could very plausibly argue that his hard line forced public employees to cough up the concessions he demanded. You'd think this alone would win him plaudits from more reasonable conservative observers.

There are only three imaginable reasons why Walker isn't doing this. The first is that he really believes that rolling back employee bargaining rights -- in addition to winning the fiscal concessions he himself asked for -- is the only way to put the state on sounder fiscal footing. But if this were the case, he would have agreed to GOP State Senator Dale Schultz's proposal to roll back those rights temporarily, until 2013. Walker didn't do this either.

The second reason for rejecting the union compromise is that his goal is nothing less than to completely break the unions, pure and simple, as part of a broader drive to destroy one of the last institutions in American life battling the creep of inequality and defending the economic interests of the working- and middle-class. The third reason is that Walker's intended audience is no longer his own constituents; it's national conservatives who share the above goals and see any compromise as needlessly delaying the long-coveted "Waterloo" moment for organized labor that they suddenly sense is within reach.

For all of Walker's pieties about how he really, honestly, truly isn't out to bust unions, his own conduct makes it entirely clear what this is really all about.

[RandomGuy]

THE Republican-sponsored Wisconsin bill that would reduce the legal powers of the state's government-employee unions has aroused mass demonstrations in Madison (see photo) and instigated a comic diaspora of Democratic state senators to the glamourous Best Western Clocktower Resort in Rockford, Illinois (it has a waterslide!).

Meanshile, Kevin Drum of Mother Jones finds upon close examination that the legislation contains within it a dash of cynical partisan politics! The bill would, among other things, require government workers to make contributions to their pension and health plans, except for cops and firefighters. Mr Drum inquires:


Now why would this be? Is it because collective bargaining is somehow less of a problem for public safety employees than for teachers? Because strikes by cops are less hazardous than strikes by teachers? Because public safety employees tend not to be hard bargainers anyway? Because public safety employees are poorly paid?
Or is it because teachers tend to vote pretty reliably for Democrats and public safety employees don't? Bingo.

Gasp!

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/public-sector_unions

Anybody who says the governor or state Republican politicians are motivated by fiscal responsibilty is pissing on your boots.

Some people who support the idea certainly are, but the way the bill was written demonstrates a pretty clear partisan motive.

[Supergirl]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/02/public-sector_unions

Anybody who says the governor or state Republican politicians are motivated by fiscal responsibilty is pissing on your boots.

Some people who support the idea certainly are, but the way the bill was written demonstrates a pretty clear partisan motive.

And yet, many in the mainstream media continue to perpetuate the line that this is motivated by money. It's a blatant lie and it's pissing me off that even respected news organizations are toeing this BS line.

[Wild Cobra]

And yet, many in the mainstream media continue to perpetuate the line that this is motivated by money. It's a blatant lie and it's pissing me off that even respected news organizations are toeing this BS line.
LOL...

Since when has the mainstream media integrity?

[boutons_deux]

As usual, Maddow's show has a devastating program of why Walker and Repugs are outright lying that public-sector unions cause deficits and must be destroyed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#41726841

[boutons_deux]

Indiana Official: "Use Live Ammunition" Against Wisconsin Protesters

JCCentCom. He tweeted back that the demonstrators were "political enemies" and "thugs" who were "physically threatening legally elected officials." In response to such behavior, he said, "You're damned right I advocate deadly force." He later called me a "typical leftist," adding, "liberals hate police."

Only later did we realize that JCCentCom was a deputy attorney general for the state of Indiana.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/indiana-official-jeff-cox-live-ammunition-against-wisconsin-protesters

[boutons_deux]

Gov. Walker Informed That Bill Targeting Unions May Cost State $46 Million In Federal Funds

WASHINGTON -- Budget referees and transportation officials in Wisconsin have informed Gov. Scott Walker (R) that if he were to pass his controversial anti-union legislation into law, he could be forfeiting tens of millions of dollars in federal funds for transportation.

Under an obscure provision of federal labor law, states risk losing federal funds should they eliminate "collective bargaining rights" that existed at the time when federal assistance was first granted. The provision, known as "protective arrangements" or "Section 13C arrangements," is meant as a means of cushioning union (and even some non-union) members who, while working on local projects, are affected by federal grants.

It also could potentially hamstring governors like Walker who want dramatic changes to labor laws in their states. Wisconsin received $74 million in federal transit funds this fiscal year. Of that, $46.6 million would be put at risk should the collective-bargaining bill come to pass -- in the process creating an even more difficult fiscal situation than the one that, ostensibly, compelled Walker to push the legislation in the first place.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/22/walker-unions-wisconsin-protests_n_826908.html?view=print

============

:lol

[Supergirl]

Also, at the same time Walker pushes this bill down the citizens of Wisconsin's throats, he lobbies to lower taxes for rich people again. Because you know, his state's broke and they need the money. How any one buys this bullshit is beyond me.

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm about equal parts disgusted with Walker not accepting the union concessions and the Congressmen running away and hiding like little bitches.

[Marcus Bryant]

True. We only remove our bullshit detectors for unions, or other nostalgic lefty causes.

[boutons_deux]

What bullshit have you, O Great Lefty Bullshit Detector, detected from the WI unions?

[TeyshaBlue]

Oh challenged archer, aim thy bow at the legislature.

[Marcus Bryant]

That this constitutes any great threat to the American labor movement. So collective bargaining for public employees for non-salary compensation is removed after they receive their fat benefits packages, and they will have to contribute a little more towards those benefits. Yes, Hitler has appeared in Madison as the more hyperbolic and ahistorical partisans claim.

[boutons_deux]

"this constitutes any great threat to the American labor movement"

of course it is. The VRWC has been beating up on labor, union and non-union, for decades, that's why household income has stagnated as GNP and productivity rose.

The less you pay labor, the more the VRWC conspiracy can pocket.

The more fragmented and weakened labor unions are, the less they, as the Have-Nots, can focus their contirbutions on the Dems, to fight the Haves.

iow, there is no corrupt clearing house on the Dem side that anywhere matches the corrupt clearing house of, eg, USCoC.

If collective bargaining is so non-threatening, then why is Walker/VRWC so damned intent on killing it?

[Marcus Bryant]

"this constitutes any great threat to the American labor movement"

of course it is. The VRWC has been beating up on labor, union and non-union, for decades, that's why household income has stagnated as GNP and productivity rose.

Globalization was the primary cause of that, something that the Clintons fully embraced. Now the Clintons are in on the "Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy." The circle is complete.





The less you pay labor, the more the VRWC conspiracy can pocket.

The more fragmented and weakened labor unions are, the less they, as the Have-Nots, can focus their contirbutions on the Dems, to fight the Haves.

iow, there is no corrupt clearing house on the Dem side that anywhere matches the corrupt clearing house of, eg, USCoC.

If collective bargaining is so non-threatening, then why is Walker/VRWC so damned intent on killing it?

Because it keeps the cost of the fat pedagogue benefits down. And since when is a state government and the taxpaying public a part of some grand conspiracy? That's fucking stupid.

[MannyIsGod]

Imagine if we had one term limitations on every office in this country. Politics would play so much less into the governing of our nation.

[boutons_deux]

"Globalization was the primary cause of that"

And it the corps have been pushing for globalization for decades, to their own benefit, not to the benefit of America.

Corporate-pushed globalization is why American foreign trade policy is so fucked up, and why America is getting screwed by its trade "partners".

If Walker is so worried about his deficit, why did he give away $120M to the corps last month?

Do you really think I buy the VRWC bullshit about public union employees as fat cats?

[Marcus Bryant]

Further, organized labor has suffered at the hands of the consuming public and its own excesses, at least in the private sector. You want to know who's behind the conspiracy? Everyone who buys shit. That's your great Satan. Who else? Everyone who's invested in the great Satan's equity markets.

[boutons_deux]

As if pro-employee facts would make any difference to the VRWC shills here:


Why Americans Need Unions Now More Than Ever


How often do you hear someone say, "Oh, at one time unions were a good thing, but not anymore"?

The premise of this argument is that once upon a time there were robber barons stalking the land, and it was a fine thing that workers organized into unions to prevent them from hiring children and paying employees a pittance as they labored in sweatshops working fifteen-hour days.

Now, goes the narrative, in the age of high-tech industrial campuses and "information" workers, unions are "obsolete."

Next time you hear that argument from an otherwise rational person, give them a good shake and insist that they wake up from their dream world.

The central problem facing the American economy -- and our society -- is the collapse of the American middle class. The incomes of the middle class Americans, and those who aspire to be middle class -- 90% of Americans -- have been stagnant for almost three decades. This trend, which was briefly interrupted during the Clinton Administration, is the chief defining characteristic of our recent economic history.

This stagnation of middle class incomes has not happened because our economy has failed to grow over this period. In fact, real (adjusted for inflation) per capita gross domestic product (GDP) increased more than 80% over the period between 1975 and 2005. In the last ten years, before the Great Recession, it increased at an average rate of 1.8% per year. That means that if the benefits of economic growth were equally spread throughout our society, everyone should have been almost 20% better off (with compounding) in 2008 than they were in 1998.

But they weren't better off. In fact, median family income actually dropped in the years before the recession. It went from $52,301 (in 2009 dollars) in 2000 to $50,112 in 2008. And, of course it continued to drop as the recession set in.

How is that possible?

Was it -- as the Right likes to believe -- because of the growth of the Federal Government? Nope. In fact, the percentage of GDP going to federal spending actually dropped during the last four years of the Clinton Administration. When Bush took office it began to increase again as the Republicans increased spending on wars. Over the last 28 years, federal spending has averaged about 20.9% of the GDP and varied within a range of only about 5%, with the high being in 1983 (in the middle of the Reagan years) and the low in 2000 before Bush took office. It has never even come close to the 43.6% of GDP that it consumed during World War II in 1943 and 1944, or the 41.9% it consumed in 1945. The percent of GDP that goes to Federal spending went up in 2009 and 2010 -- but that was mainly because the economy shrunk on the one hand, and a major, temporary stimulus bill was need on the other to prevent another Great Depression.

Was it because taxes have skyrocketed? No again. In fact, according to the Census Bureau, the median household tax burden actually dropped from 24.9% in 2000 to 22.4% in 2009.

Was it that labor became less productive? No. In fact, there has been a major gap between the increase in the productivity of our workforce and the increase in their wages. Even when wages were improving at the end of the Clinton years, productivity went up 2.5% per year and median hourly wages went up only 1.5%.

From 2000 to 2004 worker productivity exploded by an annual rate of 3.8% but hourly wages went up only 1% and median family income actually dropped .9%.

The bottom line is that people who work for a living (most of us) are getting a smaller and smaller share of the nation's economic pie.

In August of 2006, the New York Times reported that Federal Reserve study showed that, "Wages and salaries now make up the lowest share of the nation's gross national product since the government began recording data in 1947; while corporate profits have climbed to their highest shares since the 1960."

So the answer to the question is simple. Virtually all of the increase in our gross domestic product over the ten years before the Great Recession went to the wealthiest 2% of the population.

These changes in income distribution are not the result of "natural laws." They are the result of systems set up by human beings that differentially benefit different groups in the society.

Economist Paul Krugman has summarized the history of income distribution in America.

At the beginning of the Great Depression, income inequality, and inequality in the control of wealth, was very high. Then came the great compression between 1929 and 1947. Real wages for workers in manufacturing rose 67% while real income for the richest 1% of Americans fell 17%. This period marked the birth of the American middle class. Two major forces drove these trends -- unionization of major manufacturing sectors, and the public policies of the New Deal.

Then came the postwar boom, 1947 to 1973. Real wages rose 81% and the income of the richest 1% rose 38%. Growth was widely shared, but income inequality continued to drop.

From 1973 to 1980, everyone lost ground. Real wages fell 3% and income for the richest 1% fell 4%. The oil shocks, and the dramatic slowdown in economic growth in developing nations, took their toll on America and the world economy.

Then came what Krugman calls "the New Gilded Age." Beginning in 1980, there were big gains at the very top. The tax policies of the Reagan administration magnified income redistribution. Between 1980 and 2004, real wages in manufacturing fell 1%, while real income of the richest one percent rose 135%.

The single largest contributor to this stagnation of middle class incomes has been the corporate attack on organized labor. The percentage of private sector workers in unions has shrunk from 35 percent to 7%. The exception has been the public sector, where 35% of teachers, firemen and public service workers now have access to collective bargaining.

The last thirty years shows conclusively that the "competitive market" -- absent collective bargaining -- simply does not assure that everyday employees share in the fruits of increased productivity or economic growth. Left to their own devices, CEO's will pad their own massive incomes and seek higher returns for the stockholders that hire them. That is especially true in an economic world that is globalized -- where CEO's can often hire labor at pennies on the dollar of what they would have to pay in the U.S. -- if it were not for union contracts.

Collective bargaining is the only way to level the playing field -- to assure that increases in American productivity are widely shared throughout the economy.

And when they are not shared, that is not only bad for the everyday family. It is horrible for the economy. Economies are in balance if productivity gains result in commensurately higher salaries for employees that allow them to buy the larger number of products and services that the productivity increases allow corporations to manufacture and sell. If they don't have increased buying power -- if all of the income growth goes to the top 2% -- then a demand deficit will inevitably develop that will lead to a recession -- or depression. That gap in buying power can be filled for a while -- as it was in the early 2000's -- with greater consumer debt. But after while the bubble bursts and the house of cards comes tumbling down.

We saw that movie -- we know the ending. And it was mainly a result of the disparity between increased worker productivity and increased worker income. It was the direct consequence of the corporate attack on the right to join a union.

American workers -- and the American economy -- need unions now more than ever. They are the only means by which we can guarantee widely-shared economic growth. And as it turns out, sustained, long-term economic growth requires widely-shared economic growth. Unions are the only way to prevent the collapse of the American middle class.

That's why the fight in Wisconsin is so fundamental. Governor Scott Walker and his corporate supporters want to destroy labor unions -- to eliminate the right to choose a union. They want a low wage economy. They want the freedom to pay people as little as possible at their companies -- and in the government.

They believe if they can break public employee unions, that they can ultimately eliminate organized labor as a meaningful force in the American economy -- and in American politics.

Walker's action are a case study in right wing philosophy. He cut state taxes on corporations and then demanded that middle class state workers take cuts in wages and benefits in order to pay for the corporate tax cuts.

Luckily regular voters have begun to smell the coffee. Nationally a new poll shows that 61% of voters reject the kind of proposals that Walker is trying to cram down the throats of the people of Wisconsin.

In Wisconsin itself a new poll by Greenberg, Quinlan, Rosner Research found that a majority of Wisconsin voters disapprove of Walker's job performance and give him a negative favorability of 39 percent favorable and 49 percent unfavorable. In contrast 62 percent of voters offer a favorable view of public employees and only 11 percent unfavorable. And 53 percent rate labor unions favorably with only 31 percent unfavorable.

Over half of the voters oppose the agenda offered by Walker and Republicans in the legislature. Only 43 percent favor it. There is a major intensity gap as well, with 39 percent strongly opposing their proposals and only 28 percent strongly supporting them.

In the end, the Republican attack on the right to choose a union completely ignores what is good for everyday Americans -- and for the American economy. It is only concerned with what is good for the narrow economic and political interests of a tiny fraction of our population. That's why they must be defeated. That's why the battle of Wisconsin is really a battle for the survival of the American middle class.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-creamer/why-americans-need-unions_b_826951.html?view=print

[Marcus Bryant]

Plenty of speculation and confusion of correlation with causation. A 35% decline in private sector unionization to 7% of the total working pubic was not the primary culprit.

The American consumer is your primary enemy. That's the great bogeyman, the backbone of the "VRWC." It is what it is, columns from labor organizers to the contrary.

[boutons_deux]

"American consumer is your primary enemy."

No, where the jobs and consumer products are created, outside of America, is the primary enemy.

If America produced in America what it imports from overseas, America would be much better off. (that does not mean I'm a fan of consumerism as the dominant feature of American civilization)

But corporate-pushed globalization has turned many US mfrs into importers/distributors of products made overseas, by their own companies or foreign companies.

[Marcus Bryant]

The American consumer wants to pay less and get more. That's what is driving the beast. Your silly conspiracy theories gloss over this reality. You wish to isolate the culprit into some evil archetype while the actual villains are all around you.

[boutons_deux]

Koch Industries Front Group Launches Ad to Support Walker's Union Busting



As ThinkProgress has reported, the global conglomerate Koch Industries not only helped elect Gov. Scott Walker (R-WI), but is the leading force orchestrating his union-busting campaign. Koch gave Walker over $43,000 in direct donations and its allies aired millions of dollars worth of attack ads against his Democratic opponent. Then, Koch political operatives pressured Walker to crush labor unions as one of his first priorities. Tim Phillips, a former lobbying partner to Jack Abramoff and current president of Americans for Prosperity, a front financed by David Koch, told the New York Times that Koch operatives “had worked behind the scenes to try to encourage a union showdown.” A Koch-financed front group, the American Legislative Exchange Council, has prepped Wisconsin GOP lawmakers with anti-labor legislative ideas.

Today, the Koch group Americans for Prosperity announced that it will air an ad smearing the protesters in Madison and calling on the state to support Walker’s power grab. As we noted on Friday, Koch has demanded that collective bargaining rights be curtailed for both private and public sector unions, a step beyond Walker’s already extreme move. The ad disparages the pro-labor protesters for allegedly bringing in “out of state political protesters.” In fact, the small pro-Walker demonstration orchestrated by Koch operatives last Saturday included a number of out of state conservative activists, including Herman Cain (from Georgia), Jim Hoft (from Missouri), and Phillips (from Virginia).

AFP NARRATOR: Democratic legislators don’t even have the guts to show up for their jobs, hiding out in other states. President Obama backs the union bosses and floods the state with out of state political protesters. Governor Walker has the courage to do what’s right for Wisconsin. Stand with Walker.

http://www.truth-out.org/print/67992

===========

What's silly, laughable is anybody, esp a pretentious prick like Marcus Bryant, thinking the VRWC and its challenged power don't exist.

[fraga]

Can you say..."bought"...

[Marcus Bryant]

Do I think that the wealthy seek influence in politics? Sure. Do I believe in an all-encompassing conspiracy theory posed by a crack-addled pre-pubescent in which a group called the "VRWC" is behind everything bad in American politics and society? Nope.

[Wild Cobra]

As usual, Maddow's show has a devastating program of why Walker and Repugs are outright lying that public-sector unions cause deficits and must be destroyed

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#41726841
I don't trust any of the lies that come from the Madcows mouth.

[Wild Cobra]

Love how Boutons quotes misleading news sources like the Huff~n~Puff post, and the Madcow.

[fraga]

Sorry...you'd much rather have a more reliable source like...Fox "News"...mahahahaha...

[Marcus Bryant]

I'd like to take all three and shoot them into interstellar space.

[Yonivore]

ss4r8czKI_A

[Wild Cobra]

Sorry...you'd much rather have a more reliable source like...Fox "News"...mahahahaha...

God...

You are stupid.

I have probably had my TV tuned to the Fox news Channel for 10 minutes this year so far.

I listen to local radio, and use my TV for DVD's and BluRays.

[fraga]

You don't expect me to believe that now do you...

[Wild Cobra]

You don't expect me to believe that now do you...
Believe what?

Do you remember how far into that 10 minute YouTube these quotes were?

[boutons_deux]

More lies or at least lazy incompetence by corporate media:

Out of every dollar that funds Wisconsin' s pension and health insurance plans for state workers, 100 cents comes from the state workers.

How can that be? Because the "contributions" consist of money that employees chose to take as deferred wages – as pensions when they retire – rather than take immediately in cash. The same is true with the health care plan. If this were not so a serious crime would be taking place, the gift of public funds rather than payment for services.

Thus, state workers are not being asked to simply "contribute more" to Wisconsin' s retirement system (or as the argument goes, "pay their fair share" of retirement costs as do employees in Wisconsin' s private sector who still have pensions and health insurance). They are being asked to accept a cut in their salaries so that the state of Wisconsin can use the money to fill the hole left by tax cuts and reduced audits of corporations in Wisconsin.

http://www.alternet.org/economy/150034/the_media_isn%27t_telling_you_that_wisconsin_publi c_workers_pay_for_100%25_of_their_pensions_and_hea lth-care

[RandomGuy]

God...

You are stupid.

I have probably had my TV tuned to the Fox news Channel for 10 minutes this year so far.

I listen to local radio, and use my TV for DVD's and BluRays.

.. and chain e-mails. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp)

Those are always the best source of information. :rolleyes

[Wild Cobra]

.. and chain e-mails. (http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/57states.asp)

Those are always the best source of information. :rolleyes
Idiot...

I didn't get that from emails.

He said that in Beaverton Oregon

I live in Oregon, not far from Beaverton.

It was all over the local news then.

[RandomGuy]

Idiot...

I didn't get that from emails.

He said that in Beaverton Oregon

I live in Oregon, not far from Beaverton.

It was all over the local news then.

uh huh.

And you just *happened* to know how many states there were in the OIC off the top of your head without being spoon-fed that information from some forwarded email.

Nice try.

[Spurminator]

I have probably had my TV tuned to the Fox news Channel for 10 minutes this year so far.


I seem to recall Fox and Friends debating issues on both sides. I'm sorry that you are so sure of your assumptions.

Was that the ten minutes you were talking about?

[boutons_deux]

A Christian man TELLING HUGE LIES, but that's what you do when you're a Repug

HUCKABEE: They may not want to say it. But the harsh reality is if they are union busting it is because the unions have broken the bank. And they’re putting them in a position where they can’t afford to continue to go on. They’re going to lay a bunch of people off. Public employee unions are different than private sector. Private sector unions have a right to exist and have actually provided some decent check and balance to jobs and businesses.

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/24/huckabee-unions-so-what/

[boutons_deux]

Wisconsin Governor May Have Violated Labor Law in Koch Call

When Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker discussed strategies to lay off state employees for political purposes, to coordinate supposedly “independent” political expenditures to aid legislatures who support his budget repair bill and to place agent provocateurs on the streets of Madison in order to disrupt peaceful demonstrations, he committed what the former attorney general of Wisconsin says could turn out to be serious ethics, election law and labor violations

“There clearly are potential ethics violations, and there are potential election-law violations and there are a lot of what look to me like labor-law violations,” said Peg Lautenschlager, a Democrat who served as Wisconsin’s attorney general after serving for many years as a US Attorney. “I think that the ethics violations are something the [state] Government Accountability Board should look into because they are considerable. He is on tape talking with someone who he thinks is the funder of an independent political action committee to purchase advertising to benefit Republican legislators who are nervous about taking votes on legislation he sees as critical to his political success.”

http://www.thenation.com/print/blog/158824/wisconsin-governor-may-have-violated-labor-law-koch-call

[Stringer_Bell]

ss4r8czKI_A

The music is a bit much, but those teachers skipping out of their duty as educators and the kids joining in on an adult conversation have to go. I don't know where, or what they'll do when they get there, but they need to GTFO and make room for people that want to work and want to learn.

Yea, I said it, take those kids out of school and put them on a deserted island and see if their Ipad's and facebook apps are any help toward survival. Stupid kids.

[boutons_deux]

YES, quit participating in a historic push back and get back to being passive sheeple while the Repugs continue their bestiality.

May these kids be marked for life with what it's like to participate in real democracy rather than get screwed for life by the VRWC.

[boutons_deux]

8 Authoritarian Tactics Right-Wingers Have Used to Sabotage the Wisconsin Uprising

http://www.alternet.org/story/150046/

When conservatives seized townhall meetings, yelled racial insults at black lawmakers and threatened politicians who voted for health care, the right-wing celebrated their corporate-backed efforts as a populist uprising. And when teachers, police officers, firefighters and students took to Wisconsin's capitol in peaceful protest, the right-wing crusaders against government overreach have embraced creepy authoritarian tactics to shut down the demonstrations. Their actions serve as a much-needed reminder of how threatening unions are to corporate powers and how essential a weapon against the conservative agenda.

Here are eight creepy ways Gov. Walker, Republican lawmakers, Tea Party groups, and (of course) Fox and conservative pundits, have gone after Wisconsin's public workers and their supporters.

1. Threat of Military Force

2. Sabotage Protests

3. Holding Workers Hostage

4. Blocking Access to Pro-Union Website?

5. Police Sent to Intimidate Democrats

6. Propaganda/Lots of Lying

7. Shoot 'Em

8. The Chamber

Koch: Bring a baseball bat. That’s what I’d do.

Walker: I have one in my office; you’d be happy with that. I have a slugger with my name on it.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/150046

==========

As one the text of the points says, can anybody imagine the police being used to break up tea bagger protests?

[boutons_deux]

VRWC wins, expect other Repug states to follow.

As the mayor of Milwaukee said, stripping unions' bargaining rights was never mentioned in Walker's campaign, so where is his mandate to do it? The people got exactly what they didn't vote for.


Wisconsin Assembly Passes Bill Stripping Union Rights From Public Workers

MADISON, Wis. — (AP) The Wisconsin Assembly early Friday passed a bill that would strip most public workers of their collective bargaining rights – the first significant action on the new Republican governor's plan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/25/wisconsin-assembly-passes-anti-union-bill_n_828060.html?view=print

[Stringer_Bell]

http://www.jeffcaceres.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/homer_woohoo.jpg

WOOHOO! We on, everybody - we won!

lol @ those blumpkins saying this shit was gonna spiral toward victory like Egypt. union dues can suck a dick. :smokin

[Wild Cobra]

uh huh.

And you just *happened* to know how many states there were in the OIC off the top of your head without being spoon-fed that information from some forwarded email.

Nice try.
No, I googled it and found the snoops article and other information.

You're a real slimeball trying to make me a liar when I am telling the truth.

[Wild Cobra]

Was that the ten minutes you were talking about?
In the message that contained your second quote of me, I said "I used to watch Fox news quite a bit." In the first, I specified this year.

Please look up the word "context."

To misuse context makes you a lair in my book. Do you think you're superior when you are being intellectually dishonest?

[boutons_deux]

Here's quote from union-buster St Ronnie, wonderful tax cutter of his own millionaire taxes:

"By outlawing Solidarity, a free trade organization to which an overwhelming majority of Polish workers and farmers belong, they have made it clear that they never had any intention of restoring one of the most elemental human rights—the right to belong to a free trade union."

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/25/flashback-reagan-union-right/


Here's a quote from Eisenhower:

"Workers have a right to organize into unions and to bargain collectively with their employers. And a strong, free labor movement is an invigorating and necessary part of our industrial society."

"Only a fool would try to deprive working men and women of their right to join the union of their choice."

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/149700

==========

Just goes to show how far the VRWC has dragged the Repugs and corporate-shielding SCOTUS to the EXTREME right. St Ronnie and Ike would be considered full-blown socialists today.

[boutons_deux]

Fox Repug Propaganda entwork union-destroyers are AFL-CIO-affiliated union members

:lol :lol :lol

AFTRA confirmed to AlterNet Friday that O'Reilly, Limbaugh and Hannity were indeed union members.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/150054

Do as we say, not as we do.

[boutons_deux]

1. Unions Gave Us The Weekend: Even the ultra-conservative Mises Institute notes that the relatively labor-free 1870, the average workweek for most Americans was 61 hours — almost double what most Americans work now. Yet in the late nineteenth century and the twentieth century, labor unions engaged in massive strikes in order to demand shorter workweeks so that Americans could be home with their loved ones instead of constantly toiling for their employers with no leisure time. By 1937, these labor actions created enough political momentum to pass the Fair Labor Standards Act, which helped create a federal framework for a shorter workweek that included room for leisure time.

2. Unions Gave Us Fair Wages And Relative Income Equality: As ThinkProgress reported earlier in the week, the relative decline of unions over the past 35 years has mirrored a decline in the middle class’s share of national income. It is also true that at the time when most Americans belonged to a union — a period of time between the 1940′s and 1950′s — income inequality in the U.S. was at its lowest point in the history of the country.

3. Unions Helped End Child Labor: “Union organizing and child labor reform were often intertwined” in U.S. history, with organization’s like the “National Consumers’ League” and the National Child Labor Committee” working together in the early 20th century to ban child labor. The very first American Federation of Labor (AFL) national convention passed “a resolution calling on states to ban children under 14 from all gainful employment” in 1881, and soon after states across the country adopted similar recommendations, leading up to the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act which regulated child labor on the federal level for the first time.

4. Unions Won Widespread Employer-Based Health Coverage: “The rise of unions in the 1930′s and 1940′s led to the first great expansion of health care” for all Americans, as labor unions banded workers together to negotiate for health coverage plans from employers. In 1942, “the US set up a National War Labor Board. It had the power to set a cap on all wage increases. But it let employers circumvent the cap by offering “fringe benefits” – notably, health insurance.” By 1950, “half of all companies with fewer than 250 workers and two-thirds of all companies with more than 250 workers offered health insurance of one kind or another.”

5. Unions Spearheaded The Fight For The Family And Medical Leave Act: Labor unions like the AFL-CIO federation led the fight for this 1993 law, which “requires state agencies and private employers with more than 50 employees to provide up to 12 weeks of job-protected unpaid leave annually for workers to care for a newborn, newly adopted child, seriously ill family member or for the worker’s own illness.”

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/05/top-five-things-unions/

=========

Compare with

1. Repugs proposing to permit child labor.

2. Repugs/VRWC union busting.

3. Repugs targeting destruction of SocSec (hand pensions to Wall St crooks)

3. Repugs upgrading 1000s of hourly to salaried to bust their overtime.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/23/news/economy/overtime/index.htm

The sons-of-bitches Repugs are undeniably anti-Human-American for the enrichment of Corporate-Americans. The Repugs' brilliance is duping the Have-Nots into voting against themselves and for the Haves.

[boutons_deux]

Rick Scott Prosposes Cutting Annual Teacher Pay By $2,335 To Fund Corporate And Property Tax Breaks

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/07/rick-scott-teacher-pay/

[George Gervin's Afro]

In the message that contained your second quote of me, I said "I used to watch Fox news quite a bit." In the first, I specified this year.

Please look up the word "context."

To misuse context makes you a lair in my book. Do you think you're superior when you are being intellectually dishonest?

I can't believe I missed this..

irony alert..

[boutons_deux]

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/254941/thumbs/r-WISCONSIN-FARM-large570.jpg

Wisconsin State Senate Republicans Took Hundreds Of Thousands In Government Farm Subsidies

At least three of the Wisconsin state Senate Republicans currently demanding that public workers sacrifice benefits, wages and even collective bargaining rights for the sake of the budget have applied for and received hundreds of thousands of dollars in federal farm subsidies, a Huffington Post review of state and federal records shows.

From 1995 through 2009, state Sens. Luther Olsen, Dale Schultz and Sheila Harsdorf all had stakes in farms that received between them more than $300,000 in taxpayer funds.

Those federal appropriations had no direct impact on the state’s current budget woes, but the cash spent on those subsidies, which went to support a range of functions -- from soybean production to small hog operations -- could have been used elsewhere, perhaps even in Wisconsin. More than that, critics say, it muddles the notion, pushed by these lawmakers and Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R), that only they are serious about reining in an overextended, overspent government.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/08/wisconsin-state-senate-republicans_n_833058.html?view=print

==========

yes, yes, "everybody does it" but only the Repugs are busting taxpaying union members

[Winehole23]

John Doe "kitchen sink" subpoenas chasing dark money shenanigans, or suppressing legitimate political speech?

(hint: in the real world, the two are not mutually exclusive. )

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/article_f3aa2080-6265-59bd-8ad6-9997da64f0f8.html#.UolGyq93nXk.twitter
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304799404579155953286552832

[Winehole23]

from the standpoint of the losers, legal process is a swindle ipso facto