The Facebook Revolution in Lybia

[Nbadan]

Momar is getting Ghadafied!


https://jordenrunt98a.wikispaces.com/file/view/399px-Muammar_al-Gaddafi_at_the_AU_summit.jpg/173318915/399px-Muammar_al-Gaddafi_at_the_AU_summit.jpg
Another one bites the dust!


Just a matter of time...

As we speak...


L4eGuUbQarg

[ChumpDumper]

All according to SEIU's plan....

[boutons_deux]

80+ Libyans killed say reports, so far

[Capt Bringdown]

Under-reported in US media is the organized labor aspect of the uprisings sweeping the ME. Gee, I wonder why?

[RandomGuy]

80+ Libyans killed say reports, so far

That has climbed today. Looks like it is on the verge of civil war.

[BlairForceDejuan]

Community organizers = extremists.

[RandomGuy]

Libyan unrest spreads to Tripoli as Benghazi erupts

TRIPOLI (Reuters) – Libya's unrest spread to the capital Tripoli on Sunday after scores of protesters were killed in the second city Benghazi, which appeared to have slipped out of control of forces loyal to strongman Muammar Gaddafi.

Gaddafi has attempted to put down protests with a violent crackdown, triggering some of the worst bloodshed in the two months since unrest began sweeping across the Arab world.

In the first sign of serious unrest in the capital, thousands of protesters clashed with supporters of Gadaffi in Tripoli. Gunfire could be heard and police using tear gas to disperse the demonstrators.

In Benghazi, center of Libya's unrest, tens of thousands of people took to the streets and appeared to be in control of the city before security forces opened fire and killed scores.

Benghazi residents said soldiers from a unit had joined their protest and defeated a force Gaddafi's elite guards. Bodies were brought to a hospital riddled with bullets and wounds from rocket-propelled grenades.

A witness in Tripoli said police in the capital were using tear gas against protesters, some of whom were throwing stones at billboards of Gaddafi.

A resident of the capital told Reuters by telephone he could hear gunshots in the streets. "We're inside the house and the lights are out. There are gunshots in the street," he said. "That's what I hear, gunshots and people. I can't go outside."


Members of an army unit known as the "Thunderbolt" squad had come to the hospital carrying wounded comrades, he said. The soldiers said they had defected to the cause of the protesters and had fought and defeated Gaddafi's elite guards.

"They are now saying that they have overpowered the Praetorian Guard and that they have joined the people's revolt," another man at the hospital who heard the soldiers, lawyer Mohamed al-Mana, told Reuters by telephone.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110220/wl_nm/us_libya_protests

[RandomGuy]

Gadhafi's son warns of civil war in Libya



CAIRO – The son of longtime leader Moammar Gadhafi warned in a nationally televised address that continued anti-government protests that have wracked Libya for six days might lead to a civil war that could send the country's oil wells up in flames.

Appearing on Libyan state television after midnight Sunday, Seif al-Islam Gadhafi said the army still backed his father, who was leading the fight, although he added that some military bases, tanks and weapons had been seized.

"We are not Tunisia and Egypt," the younger Gadhafi said, referring to the successful uprisings that toppled longtime regimes in Libya's neighbors.

He acknowledged that the army made mistakes during protests because it was not trained to deal with demonstrators but added that the number of dead had been exaggerated, giving a death toll of 84. Human Rights Watch put the number at 174 through Saturday, and doctors in the eastern city of Benghazi said more than 200 have died since the protests began.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110220/ap_on_re_af/af_libya_protests

[RandomGuy]

Other rumors, gleaned from an Al Jazeera blog:


12:11 am: Libya's ambassador to China, Hussein Sadiq al Musrati, has just resigned on air with Al Jazeera Arabic. He called on the army to intervene, and has called all diplomatic staff to resign.

He made claims about a gunfight between Gaddafi's sons and also claimed that Gaddafi may have left Libya. Al Jazeera has no confirmation of these claims.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/17/live-blog-libya

------------------------------------------

It appears as if the port of Benghazi in the east has some simmering hatred of the regime, stemming from an incident in which thousands of people were slaughtered in prison riots about a decade ago.

Then the regime shot some protestors, then mourners at the funerals for those dead protestors.

I think a lot of people in Libya are highly pissed, and with good reason.

http://www.libya-properties.com/images/EP_libya_map.jpg

Libya also appears to have some tribal splits.

[RandomGuy]

Did I mention that Libya exports a lot of oil?

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html

Not on par with Saudi Arabia, but a withdrawal of Libya's oil from the global bath tub of oil, will mean a sharp rise in the price of oil.

[clambake]

where is lybia?

[RandomGuy]

where is lybia?



Lybia Avenue, Birmingham, AL ?

or the country in north africa just south of Italy that used to be a former italian colony?

[boutons_deux]

Libya is huge exporter of LNG. And has anybody forgotten Lockerbie?

A few years ago they discovered a huge underground lake/aquifer under the Sahara that dated back 10s of 1000s of years, and are now sucking it dry.

[RandomGuy]

Libya is huge exporter of LNG. And has anybody forgotten Lockerbie?

A few years ago they discovered a huge underground lake/aquifer under the Sahara that dated back 10s of 1000s of years, and are now sucking it dry.

They are going to end up having to use a good chunk of energy to de-salinate water, after that "one-time" aquifer is gone.

I have not forgotten Lockerbie, but the billion+ Ghadafi pledged to the victims went a long way to making some amends.

I won't shed a tear to see his crazy ass go. One has to wonder which dictator is next.

Brent crude is now above 100 bucks a barrel, with West Texas Intermediate hugging 90 at $87 and change. Mark the time. Betcha it will be a lot higher next week.

[MannyIsGod]

I think its completely wrong to keep calling this shit "the facebook revolution".

[cheguevara]

Exon telling Obama and the Eurotrash presidents to STFU. Then telling Omar to start gassing motherfuckers.

[boutons_deux]

Gene Sharp: Author of the nonviolent revolution rulebook

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12522848

====

hmmm...

[boutons_deux]

According to reports, Libyan consular staff in China, India, the U.K., Indonesia, Bangladesh, Poland and at the Arab League have all resigned over the government's brutal crackdown on protesters

According to reports, Libyan consular staff in China, India, the U.K., Indonesia, Bangladesh, Poland and at the Arab League have all resigned over the government's brutal crackdown on protesters

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/480994/in_libya%2C_protests_become_civil_war_as_gaddafi_r eportedly_orders_loyal_military_units_to_fire_on_t heir_own_comrades

=========

Oligarchies are falling in the Arab world, while the oligarchy is consolidating and increasing its power in the UCA.

[Yonivore]

Hey, anyone checked how that "popular democratic revolution" is going in Egypt?

Yeah, the Extreme Islamists seem to be on their way to another Iranian-style regime. Good luck with that...

The Yuppie Revolution In Egypt Is Over, The Islamist Revolution Has Begun (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2011/02/yuppie-revolution-in-egypt-is-over.html)

Who saw that coming? Oh yeah, anyone with a brain.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, anyone checked how that "popular democratic revolution" is going in Egypt?

Yeah, the Extreme Islamists seem to be on their way to another Iranian-style regime. Good luck with that...

The Yuppie Revolution In Egypt Is Over, The Islamist Revolution Has Begun (http://legalinsurrection.blogspot.com/2011/02/yuppie-revolution-in-egypt-is-over.html)

Who saw that coming? Oh yeah, anyone with a brain.You still never said anything about what you would do to protect ruthless dictators like Mubarak.

[MannyIsGod]

Yoni wants dictators because he doesn't like others politics. :( :( :(

Yoni only wants you to be free if you think like him :( :( :(

[Yonivore]

Yoni wants dictators because he doesn't like others politics. :( :( :(

Yoni only wants you to be free if you think like him :( :( :(
Some things are worse than western-friendly autocrats and dictators. I'm afraid the Egyptians are about to find out...much as the Iranians did, after the Shah was deposed.

In Iran, One Woman's Death May Have Many Consequences (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906049,00.html?iid=digg_share)

I think we're destined to end up with a cesspool of Islamic extremism in the Middle East and Northern Africa intent on destroying anything and everything non-Islamic.

Conversion, Dhimmitude, or Death.

[ChumpDumper]

Some things are worse than western-friendly autocrats and dictators. I'm afraid the Egyptians are about to find out...much as the Iranians did, after the Shah was deposed.

In Iran, One Woman's Death May Have Many Consequences (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906049,00.html?iid=digg_share)

I think we're destined to end up with a cesspool of Islamic extremism in the Middle East and Northern Africa intent on destroying anything and everything non-Islamic.

Conversion, Dhimmitude, or Death.Glenn Beck really got to you.

[boutons_deux]

Yoni's hoping for a BecKKK-style terrorist caliphate to justify his Islamophobia, (but he needs no justification)

[MannyIsGod]

Some things are worse than western-friendly autocrats and dictators. I'm afraid the Egyptians are about to find out...much as the Iranians did, after the Shah was deposed.

In Iran, One Woman's Death May Have Many Consequences (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906049,00.html?iid=digg_share)

I think we're destined to end up with a cesspool of Islamic extremism in the Middle East and Northern Africa intent on destroying anything and everything non-Islamic.

Conversion, Dhimmitude, or Death.

I think this forum is littered with your incorrect predictions so we can safely file this one away with those.

[MannyIsGod]

Egyptians are about to have actual elections and Yoni's butthurt. Classic.

[Yonivore]

I think this forum is littered with your incorrect predictions so we can safely file this one away with those.
Okay; feel free.

[Yonivore]

Egyptians are about to have actual elections and Yoni's butthurt. Classic.
It's like we're reliving 1978-79 all over again... There are so many parallels; right down to the throngs jubilantly receiving some Islamic extremist cleric as their savior.

Was the last Iranian election free and fair?

[MannyIsGod]

The egyptians should not oust the oppressors because they might end up oppressed. Amazing logic.

[PublicOption]

Guttenberg is to Christians as Zuckerburg is Muslims.

[PublicOption]

Guttenberg(printing press) is to Christians as Zuckerburg(facebook) is Muslims.

[RandomGuy]

Guttenberg(printing press) is to Christians as Zuckerburg(facebook) is Muslims.

Yonivore is to conservatives as Boutons is to liberals?

[RandomGuy]

It's like we're reliving 1978-79 all over again... There are so many parallels; right down to the throngs jubilantly receiving some Islamic extremist cleric as their savior.

Was the last Iranian election free and fair?

With the slight exception that there was no charismatic hard-line theocrat leading the charge.

... and the fact that the protests were non-violent

You saw a large gathering where a religious leader spoke and your own particular confirmation bias automatically assigns this event to something you know and understand.

Oddly enough the reality is that secular liberals drove this bus, not conservative religious ideologues.

Conservative religious ideologues in this country find that hard to comprehend, or accept.

I must confess a certain bit of schadenfreude watching them squirm.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Some of the writers on prisonplanet.com have some good takes on this situation. I know i know most of you think its all tin hat bullshit but its worth checking out. They point out that the news sources giving us death totals and describing the incoherent speech given by qaddafis Son have already admitted that they are largely working in the dark.
Just like we were led to believe the protests in egypt were some huge uprising (less than a tenth of percent of the population) we could be receiving exaggerated or false info about the casualties or any so called massacres.

[Yonivore]

The egyptians should not oust the oppressors because they might end up oppressed. Amazing logic.
Not all evils are equal.

[Yonivore]

With the slight exception that there was no charismatic hard-line theocrat leading the charge.

... and the fact that the protests were non-violent

You saw a large gathering where a religious leader spoke and your own particular confirmation bias automatically assigns this event to something you know and understand.

Oddly enough the reality is that secular liberals drove this bus, not conservative religious ideologues.

Conservative religious ideologues in this country find that hard to comprehend, or accept.

I must confess a certain bit of schadenfreude watching them squirm.
Okay, Pollyanna. But, who's squirming? And, whatever the genesis of the Egyptian protests, Islamic extremists are wresting the reigns away from the populace. Also, The Ayatollah Khomeni didn't return from exile until after the Shah departed...he wasn't exactly "leading the charge" in Iran, early on.

No, those of us who were around remember it being characterized in much the same way as is the Egyptian uprisings.

Obviously, there's not much that can be done now so, we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

[clambake]

Also, The Ayatollah Khomeni didn't return from exile until after the Shah departed...he wasn't exactly "leading the charge" in Iran, early on.
gee, i wonder why?

No, those of us who were around remember it being characterized in much the same way as is the Egyptian uprisings.

characterized by whom? give us direct examples.

[RandomGuy]

No, those of us who were around remember it being characterized in much the same way as is the Egyptian uprisings.

Obviously, there's not much that can be done now so, we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

That is one of the reasons we need to quit propping up brutal dictators for short term gains.

[boutons_deux]

"he wasn't exactly "leading the charge" in Iran"

You Lie.

Khomeini was in France, and was always the leader of the Revolution. He didn't take it over, or co-opt the Revolution. The revolutionaries always intended him to be their leader.

[Yonivore]

That is one of the reasons we need to quit propping up brutal dictators for short term gains.
This seems to suggest had Pahlavi or Mubarek never come to power in their respective countries, we wouldn't have (in the case of Iran), or be trending toward (in the case of Egypt), Islamic extremist governments who hate the West and want to annihilate Israel.

Also, you would have to re-write the entire history of how the Middle East and Northern Africa developed, politically, to realize your Utopian dream of if we would just leave them alone, they'd leave us alone. And, quite frankly, I'm not sure of what history you could write that wouldn't result in what we have today. The United States wasn't the only, or even the first, Western nation to stake claims in that region of the world.

Not only is it too late to change the tide in Egypt; it's also too late to assuage any hostility the Islamic extremists seem to harbor for all things western. You could, I would argue, retract completely within our borders and -- still -- they'd find reason to hate us and want us dead.

So, what's your plan?

[clambake]

whats your plan, yoni?

[Yonivore]

From some of the comments in here and in the media, it is being suggested (or explicitly stated) that had we not supported Mubarek or Pahlavi, the revolutions in those countries would not have been anti-American or anti-Western.

Well, I guess the revolution in Libya can be an experiment. This is a despot with whom we could not work and, in fact, tried to kill on at least one occasion.

I guess we'll see what results when -- as it appears now -- his regime falls to a popular revolt.

[Yonivore]

...we could be receiving exaggerated or false info about the casualties or any so called massacres.
Or not.

_CoO00yczdc

Libya warplanes bombing Tripoli: resident (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110221/wl_nm/us_libya_protests_jets;_ylt=Ao83x01RWeI1s1eYF1ypv6 hvaA8F;_ylu=X3oDMTJudDg2ODkxBGFzc2V0A25tLzIwMTEwMj IxL3VzX2xpYnlhX3Byb3Rlc3RzX2pldHMEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMx BHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcnkEc2xrA21pbGl0YXJ5YWlyYw--)

LIBYA: Colonels defected to Malta rather than bomb protesters (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/02/libya-colonels-defected-to-malta-rather-than-bomb-protesters.html)

zDozcByEYOE

F1Pig1Ji2Co

[ChumpDumper]

whats your plan, yoni?Why do you not tell us, yoni?

[Winehole23]

This is a despot with whom we could not work ...Piously put, but ultimately wrong. We've been working with Gaddafi for awhile now. Blame Bush.


On December 19, 2003, Libya announced its intention to rid itself of WMD and MTCR-class missile programs. Since that time, it has cooperated with the U.S., the U.K., the International Atomic Energy Agency, and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons toward these objectives. Libya has also signed the IAEA Additional Protocol and has become a State Party to the Chemical Weapons Convention.


In recognition of these actions, the U.S. began the process of normalizing relations with Libya. The U.S. terminated the applicability of the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_Libya_Sanctions_Act) to Libya and the President signed an Executive Order on September 20, 2004 terminating the national emergency with respect to Libya and ending IEEPA-based economic sanctions. This action had the effect of unblocking assets blocked under the Executive Order sanctions. Restrictions on cargo aviation and third-party code-sharing have been lifted, as have restrictions on passenger aviation. Certain export controls remain in place.


U.S. diplomatic personnel reopened the U.S. Interest Section in Tripoli on February 8, 2004. The mission was upgraded to a U.S. Liaison Office on June 28, 2004, and to a full embassy on May 31, 2006. The establishment in 2005 of an American School in Tripoli demonstrates the increased presence of Americans in Libya, and the continuing normalization of bilateral relations. Libya re-established its diplomatic presence in Washington with the opening of an Interest Section on July 8, 2004, which was subsequently upgraded to a Liaison Office in December 2004 and to a full embassy on May 31, 2006.


On May 15, 2006, the State Department announced its intention to rescind Libya's designation as a state sponsor of terrorism in recognition of the fact that Libya had met the statutory requirements for such a move: it had not provided any support for acts of international terrorism in the preceding six-month period, and had provided assurances that it would not do so in the future. On June 30, 2006, the U.S. rescinded Libya's designation as a state sponsor of terrorism. In July 2007, Mr. Gene Cretz was nominated by President Bush as ambassador to Libya. The Foreign Relations Committee of the U.S. Senate held Cretz's confirmation hearing on Wednesday, September 25th, 2008. The Libyan government satisfied its responsibility and paid the remaining amount of money it owed (total of $1.5 billion) to the victims of several acts of terrorism on Friday, October 31st, 2008.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations

[Yonivore]

Piously put, but ultimately wrong. We've been working with Gaddafi for awhile now. Blame Bush.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations
Beginning to normalize relations and appointing an ambassador in exchange for money to victims of your state-sponsored terrorism isn't exactly "business." But, okay, if that's what you have...cool.

I think Obama's complicity is getting the Pan Am 103 bomber released is more of a business deal than anything Bush did with respect to Libya. But, to be sure, relations with Libya haven't been "friendly" for quite a long time.

[RandomGuy]

So, what's your plan?

As I have said before, you don't fight the idea that you are evil by being assholes.

Extraordinary renditions should stop. Torturing people should stop. I don't care how many fictional "ticking bombs" the hysterical scaredycats think are out there.

The biggest lesson learned in Vietnam and Iraq, was that you sometimes have to let people hate you.

Do good things, and put the lie to the lies about how evil we are.

You want to win the "war" on terror, become a real force for positive change.

Build schools, find jobs for the impoverished masses, fight corruption.

Triple USAID budget for starters, fuck dectuple it. Get the best and the brightest working on alleviating human suffering.

We spend more on dogs in this country than we do helping the rest of the world. We used to believe the shit we were selling about freedom and democracy. I am beginning to wonder if we do any more.

[RandomGuy]

An expert on Libya said she believed the regime was collapsing.

"Unlike the fall of the regime in Tunisia and Egypt, this is going to be a collapse into a civil war," said Lisa Anderson, president of the American University in Cairo, and a Libya expert.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya_protests

I would concur. This could very well be the birth of yet another new country. One with oil in the west and one without in the east.

Once the armed forces start splitting, that would seem to me to be the start of a civil war, or sucession at least.

[Yonivore]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/af_libya_protests

I would concur. This could very well be the birth of yet another new country. One with oil in the west and one without in the east.

Once the armed forces start splitting, that would seem to me to be the start of a civil war, or sucession at least.
Some believe Egypt -- which has had its eye on Libya's oil rich territories for some time -- may take advantage of the turmoil in both their countries to make a grab.

That would be interesting.

[Yonivore]

As I have said before, you don't fight the idea that you are evil by being assholes.

Extraordinary renditions should stop. Torturing people should stop. I don't care how many fictional "ticking bombs" the hysterical scaredycats think are out there.

The biggest lesson learned in Vietnam and Iraq, was that you sometimes have to let people hate you.

Do good things, and put the lie to the lies about how evil we are.

You want to win the "war" on terror, become a real force for positive change.

Build schools, find jobs for the impoverished masses, fight corruption.

Triple USAID budget for starters, fuck dectuple it. Get the best and the brightest working on alleviating human suffering.

We spend more on dogs in this country than we do helping the rest of the world. We used to believe the shit we were selling about freedom and democracy. I am beginning to wonder if we do any more.
I say this with all due respect; you're just plain wrong.

The United States of America has been the greatest force for good ever known in the world. If we "dectupled" the aid we're doling out, all around the world, we'd go broke.

Sometimes you have to fight.

My plan? Start killing the leaders of these fucking Islamic Extremist movements. Lift the assassination bans and just start blowing them up in front of their throngs of "enraged" Islamic masses. Fuck'em.

I'd start with a cruise missile to the podium the next time Ahmadenijad gives one of his wipe Israel off the map speeches. Hopefully, the whole cadre of mentally defective Mullahs will be sitting there with him.

[PublicOption]

Oil Companies afraid of losing cash cow.......As Foxnews plays along......man they are fuckheads.

Foxnews loves Oil Companies, Oil Companies love Khadafi. ergo Foxnews supports Khadafi. so much for the Reagan lovefest.

[Yonivore]

My understand is this source isn't always reliable but, I'm not hearing this anywhere else and, if true, is an important development.

US warships box in Iranian flotilla, delay Suez passage (http://www.debka.com/article/20692/)


Thursday night, Feb. 17, the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, escorted by missile cruiser USS Leyte Gulf and the fast supply ship USNS Arctic, headed south through the canal. By Friday morning, they were through and taking up position opposite the Kharg cruiser and Alvand missile destroyer of the Iranian Navy's 12th Flotilla, which were waiting to enter the Suez Canal at the southern Red Sea entrance.

Furthermore, since the first week of February, the USS Kearsarge, another aircraft carrier, was posted in the Great Bitter Lake opposite Ismailia and the canal's main routes with a large contingent of marines aboard.

The USS George Washington carrier and the USS Carl Vinson were additionally deployed in the Gulf of Aden, the latter having been moved from the Pacific.

A battle of nerves is therefore underway.
This could explain why the Egyptians say the Iranians haven't passed through the Suez while the Iranians claim they have.

[RandomGuy]

I say this with all due respect; you're just plain wrong.

The United States of America has been the greatest force for good ever known in the world. If we "dectupled" the aid we're doling out, all around the world, we'd go broke.

Sometimes you have to fight.

My plan? Start killing the leaders of these fucking Islamic Extremist movements. Lift the assassination bans and just start blowing them up in front of their throngs of "enraged" Islamic masses. Fuck'em.

I'd start with a cruise missile to the podium the next time Ahmadenijad gives one of his wipe Israel off the map speeches. Hopefully, the whole cadre of mentally defective Mullahs will be sitting there with him.

First off, let's start with the USAID budget. What we "dole out" represents less than .3% of the overall federal budget. Do you really think a 14Trillion dollar economy will "go broke" by spending 87Bn per year? (if we were to multiply our foreign aid budget by a factor of ten from the current 8.7bn)?

I will assume that you are probably unaware of that small fact. Most Americans dont' really know how little we spend alleviating suffering.

I do agree with you on one thing at least. I think we are the greatest force for good in the world. We could be so much better, unfettered by failed ideas of the past.

The "fuck 'em" didn't work for, well, anybody.

That strategy lost us Vietnam. Killing indescriminantly just pisses people off.

This was one of *THE* main lessons learned in just about any war.

Quite frankly, the "fuck 'em" strategy is about the worst thing you could do. It erodes your own moral authority, and convinces people that what your enemies say about you is true.

Your turn. How would *you* fight the idea that you are evil?

[MannyIsGod]

Yonivore is practically getting wood at the thought of US military action.

[ChumpDumper]

yoni wants to sacrifice his own child for no good reason.

Sounds about right.

[RandomGuy]

My understand is this source isn't always reliable but, I'm not hearing this anywhere else and, if true, is an important development.

US warships box in Iranian flotilla, delay Suez passage (http://www.debka.com/article/20692/)


This could explain why the Egyptians say the Iranians haven't passed through the Suez while the Iranians claim they have.

Iranian navy = WW2 era surplus.

Hell, we have coast guard cutters that would probably have the capacity to give the destroyers the Iranians have a run for their money.

I exaggerate here for the sake of humor, but not by much.

It is a symbolic gesture and little more. I would guess that the Iranian request probably "fell through the cracks" in the recent chaos, although it does seem that the Egyptians are obligated by treaty, if not by recent practice, to allow Iranian naval vessels passage.

[RandomGuy]

My plan? Start killing the leaders of these fucking Islamic Extremist movements. Lift the assassination bans and just start blowing them up in front of their throngs of "enraged" Islamic masses. Fuck'em.

I'd start with a cruise missile to the podium the next time Ahmadenijad gives one of his wipe Israel off the map speeches. Hopefully, the whole cadre of mentally defective Mullahs will be sitting there with him.

Because nothing says "we're not evil" like killing religious leaders. :rolleyes

I am simply reminded in the recent events by a few choice words.

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible, but in the end, they always fall — think of it, always."

"What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty and democracy?"

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Heard George Friedman again on the radio today, this time on 1190's 4-6 pm show Wall Street Shuffle.

He basically said (CBF paraphrase naturally) who gives a fuck about Libya. If the damage to US interests in Libya could be rated a "2" the possible damage to US interest in a failing Bahrain would be a "9".

And he believes all of these riots in various countries could essentially be fomented and part of a larger Iranian plan that they intended to kick into action following the full US evacuation from Iraq.

He said it's quite ironic how [stupid dumbfucks like most of you] had wanted to invade Iraq for all these reasons, yet no matter WHAT happens now, we plan on leaving, and that will only strengthen Iran. [Which could be why Cheney and W were trying ever so hard to provoke or even preemptive strike Iran in W's last days...] This strenghtening of Iran is an inevitability, the only question is when.

He believes Iran had a plan, via SOCIAL NETWORKS, to essentially encircle Saudi Arabia, and completely shift the balance of power in the Middle East to its favor once we left. And after the Tunisia spontaneity, they went full steam ahead with their plans, knowing it could be a "strike while the iron is hot" scenario. It's all about Iran trying to awaken Shiites and isolate/encircle Saudi Arabia.

Iraq will inevitably become a client state of Iran, because the only way Iraq can survive once we leave is by subservient to Iran.

I advice anyone remotely interested to check out stratfor, or some podcasts of any shows this guy has been doing.

I'm not sure I agree with him but he sheds a lot of light on this situation, from a point of view most aren't getting.


He again scoffed at the idea of Egypt's "revolution" being anything "grassroots" and said the "military was able to do what they had been waiting to do for months".
hnnnaturally


But the Situation in Bahrain is insane. No quality thread on that, so I decided to post this stuff in this thread.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

We are seeing a Shiite awakening.

Bahrain is the true key to destabilizing Saudi Arabia. If that can be kept under control, everything else is not that big of a deal.


This region needs another fucking Nasser. Can you imagine what Saddam Hussein would do if we can play hypotheticals and you place him in charge of Iraq while all these rebellions are breaking out? The lines used to be Arab-Persian. We are witnessing Iran in their greatest gambit to officially define it as Sunni-Shiite


History is going to rip the Neocon Jack-Off Fest of 2000-2008 as the fastest erosion of empire hegemony in the history of the entire world.
It's absolutely amazing to see how far we've come in so little time.

Hey but at least you rich fucks got that tax break!

[ChumpDumper]

There just aren't enough Shiites to pull something like that off.

Iran is already surrounded by Sunnis -- maybe it's possible that Iran is looking for buffers or a sphere of influence like the Soviet Union and China have done in the past, but it's far from a takeover.

Your point that neocons really fucked up is well taken, however.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

There just aren't enough Shiites to pull something like that off.

Iran is already surrounded by Sunnis -- maybe it's possible that Iran is looking for buffers or a sphere of influence like the Soviet Union and China have done in the past, but it's far from a takeover.

Your point that neocons really fucked up is well taken, however.

They don't need to necessarily put every country under Shiite rule

But S.A. does have it's fair share of Shiites that can contribute to regime change...especially given that the chances of that happening increase if Bahrain undergoes regime change.

I get how Libya, Tunisia, Egypt aren't necessarily about Shiite/Sunni, but if Iran can get greater Shiite sway in S.A., by default they are already going to get it in Iraq, they stand ready to be the greatest single influence in the Middle East. Considering our 5th fleet will probably be without a base if Bahrain's regime changes, this can be serious shit.

It's all about power projection...and they're moving their chess pieces in position to project a lot of power without even having a nuclear bomb.

Once they get that nuclear bomb, Iran becomes a new global power. It can seriously be like the book Dune, where Iran is kind of like Arrakis. They can affect global events and policies simply by their existence.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, in his book The Grand Chessboard listed Iran as one of 5 geopolitical flash points, that was in position to affect global events simply via their existence on this planet. It's becoming more and more apparent how they can accomplish that.

[ChumpDumper]

I simply don't think their plans are that grandiose. they probably would have figured out how to refine oil first.

[MannyIsGod]

I think you give Iran far too much credit.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think they know how its a cost/implementation issue

For a while now I've believed that Iran has been begging for an opportunity to officially become top-dog in the Middle East. Surely you realize this is an inevitability?


Even if Iran is not behind this in any way, the instability in the M.E. mainland is only going to accelerate the shift of power in their favor

[ChumpDumper]

I think they know how its a cost/implementation issue

For a while now I've believed that Iran has been begging for an opportunity to officially become top-dog in the Middle East. Surely you realize this is an inevitability?


Even if Iran is not behind this in any way, the instability in the M.E. mainland is only going to accelerate the shift of power in their favorI believe most Iranians have always wanted Iran to be a regional power, mainly so other countries quit fucking with it. Beyond that? Eh....they have too many internal problems of their own to crominate the middle east/south Asia.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think you give Iran far too much credit.


I think the beauty of Iran's position is that they're going against a bogged down United States that is sick of war. This weakens their greatest threat while strengthening their position locally and globally.

There were blogs written as far back as in 2005 when the shit with Muqtada al-Sadr was going down in the Iraq war, how the entire point of that scenario was Iran trying to re-draw the battle lines. From Arab-Persian to Sunni-Shiite.
I didn't think it was possible any time soon, but this shit going down serves to accelerate it.


Even if Iran is sitting aside on their hands, with no influence whatsoever, do you think this instability will weaken, strengthen, or unaffect their position?

[MannyIsGod]

Dude if fucking Iran could organize a bunch of revolutions through social networking you don't think the US could do that?

I mean com'on.

I think its far too early to see how any of this benefits them in any way. The rest of the middle easy having revolutions isn't going to do wonders for a country that just barely managed to suppress one.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Dude if fucking Iran could organize a bunch of revolutions through social networking you don't think the US could do that?

I mean com'on.

I think its far too early to see how any of this benefits them in any way. The rest of the middle easy having revolutions isn't going to do wonders for a country that just barely managed to suppress one.

See, to me you've almost contradicted yourself.

If a bunch of college educated and poor Iranians can do foment that whole "green revolution" episode, it's so impossible to believe the Iranian government can figure out how to use their intelligence to work social networking sites? I guess the people running that country really are cavemen just wanting to get a bomb and jihad us?

And there's nothing to say the US isn't involved in this balls-deep. In fact, I think they are. But that is not to say Iran isn't. I'd expect nothing less than the US to be fuckin around trying to understand how the internet plays its role in revolutions.

But the rest of the M.E. having revolutions will most certainly benefit Iran, the region has a history of a strong solid regime exhibiting influence, and with the new media crap, one that can boast that it is not under US influence can eventually be worth gold.

Iran barely suppressed their revolution? Manny you know that's false.

[ChumpDumper]

You really consider the current Iranian government to be strong and solid?

[MannyIsGod]

Iran did just barely suppress their revolution, CBF. And it wasn't orchestrated through social networking sites. It was a nation that was extremely pissed off after an election that was blatantly rigged and it was reported through social networking sites but its not like some dude in Tehran was sitting around and posting "LOL REVOLUTION" on facebook.

You guys just love yourself some conspiracy theories but there is nothing out there to suggest anymore than people feeding off the discontent and it spreading to neighboring countries.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You really consider the current Iranian government to be strong and solid?

Relatively after this shit is played out, yes. Easily. And appearance is reality, as we are witnessing right now.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't get the fascination for looking for these crazy theories on how the revolutions have started. Why not instead just look at history on how these events have unfolded in the past. People get fed up and it builds and if there are enough events it snowballs. You can't orchestrate these situations and because they take a huge number of events and discontent to ferment and can be crushed unless everything goes right.

[MannyIsGod]

Relatively after this shit is played out, yes. Easily. And appearance is reality, as we are witnessing right now.

Why? You think the people in Iran are more behind their government today than they were one year ago? Really?

[ChumpDumper]

Relatively after this shit is played out, yes. Easily. And appearance is reality, as we are witnessing right now.Compared to what?

Egypt?

Sure.

Saudi Arabia?

Not so much.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Iran did just barely suppress their revolution, CBF. And it wasn't orchestrated through social networking sites. It was a nation that was extremely pissed off after an election that was blatantly rigged and it was reported through social networking sites but its not like some dude in Tehran was sitting around and posting "LOL REVOLUTION" on facebook.

You guys just love yourself some conspiracy theories but there is nothing out there to suggest anymore than people feeding off the discontent and it spreading to neighboring countries.


It was an over sensationalized piece of reporting. Just like Libya is supposedly using air planes to murder 400 people a day now.

I kept up with it as well, and if you consider that situation to be "barely under control" then the situation in Bahrain and Yemen must be at "all hell is breaking loose" levels to you, no?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Why? You think the people in Iran are more behind their government today than they were one year ago? Really?

Manny were the people in Libya more supportive of their country in 1991 than in 1990?

Were the people in Egypt more supportive of their country in 2003 than 2002?

Were the people in Iraq more supportive in 1989 than 1988?

What does any of that matter?

All that matters is if the regime has "control" and can project power.
The game is changing right in front of our eyes. Internet-based media is just a quicker method of propaganda, it's a new state tool.


If not one regime falls after Egypt, if Qaddafi maintains, power, if nothing else changes, Iran has still gained relative strength. And relative to the region, they are still sitting on a more solid foundation. Turkey is the only real competition, but I don't consider them part of the arab world, and they've only recently begun to look back eastwards with words, we've yet to see it with true policy.

[Yonivore]

Ahmadinejad: Mideast leaders should heed calls for change (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/23/iran.mideast.unrest/index.html?eref=edition)


(CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Wednesday urged Middle East leaders to listen to the voices of citizens who have taken to the streets in masses to demand a change in government -- though such protests in his own country have been crushed with brute force.

http://www.dailymail.com/mediafiles/thumbs/600/426/margulies221_I110221093626.jpg

Because, Iran is so good at listening to their people...


mVR2rLLqYJw

[boutons_deux]

Iran had democracy and a democratically elected President, but wanted to nationalize Iran's oil, so Anglo-Iranian oilco hired the US/CIA to overthrow him and install the corrupt Shah. Oil operations continued uninterrupted.

So you know the answer to "Why Do They Hate Us?"

It's because we took away their freedoms, not because they hate our freedoms (which ar a myth anyway).

I am reading that the Shiite majorities, with Iran as their most influential group, in these countries are overthrowing the Sunni minorities. Iran will certainly be a big winner if that's true, just like Iran won when dubya kicked out Sunni Saddam and allowed the Shiite majority to take control.

[RandomGuy]

Ahmadinejad: Mideast leaders should heed calls for change (http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/23/iran.mideast.unrest/index.html?eref=edition)



Your turn. How would *you* fight the idea that [the US is] evil?

The question stands unanswered.

We need a strategy to combat this idea.

[Yonivore]

I reject the premise.

Who, other than the bat-shit, crazy liberal left and our enemies, around the world, believe the United States is evil?

Ahmadenijad? Hamas? Syria? Who? And, when you identify those who think we're evil; you will find the oppressed of their countries think the United States is the greatest model of freedom in the world.

Libyans are begging for U.S. intervention in Libya. Do they hate us? Or, is it the regime that is watching it's power melt into the sand? For every country where there is a vocal minority (led by the extremists in power) screaming, "Death to America," "America is Satan," there is an oppressed majority that wants to be America.

Again, I reject your premise. With the exception of Afghanistan (for which we had ample justification) and Iraq (for which there are more Iraqis thankful for our intervention than there are opposed to it), the United States of America has been invited into every country in which they now have a presence, by the legitimate government in power. I can't help that Islamic Extremists get their panties in a wad and want to "rage" over our desecrating their "holy places." Their beef is with their leaders, not America.

[Yonivore]

The question stands unanswered.

We need a strategy to combat this idea.
Kill the leaders that foment the unjustified hatred. Blow them the fuck up. I think it's inevitable, anyway. Ahmadeni-nut-job is already pressing our hand by moving war ships through the Suez.

That's my strategy.

What's yours? Peace, Love, and Isolationism?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Kill the leaders that foment the unjustified hatred. Blow them the fuck up. I think it's inevitable, anyway. Ahmadeni-nut-job is already pressing our hand by moving war ships through the Suez.

That's my strategy.

What's yours? Peace, Love, and Isolationism?

Yes..we need to throw gas on the fire in the middle east! Brilliant!

[Yonivore]

Yes..we need to throw gas on the fire in the middle east! Brilliant!
Ever heard of a fire break? It'll certainly burn up and out faster that way. I don't see the fire being extinguished any time soon.

The people who we'd be killing already "hate" us (although, I think the hatred is just a convenient excuse to expand their ideology) so, why does it matter?

Put a bullet in Ahmadenijad and the mad Mullahs of Iran, today, and a vast majority of Iranian population would love us tomorrow. Who cares if the "angry Muslim" continues to do what they've been using every flimsy excuse, over the past 40 years, to do? I don't.

That prick in Syria could use an extra hole in his head, as well.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Ever heard of a fire break? It'll certainly burn up and out faster that way. I don't see the fire being extinguished any time soon.

The people who we'd be killing already "hate" us (although, I think the hatred is just a convenient excuse to expand their ideology) so, why does it matter?

Put a bullet in Ahmadenijad and the mad Mullahs of Iran, today, and a vast majority of Iranian population would love us tomorrow. Who cares if the "angry Muslim" continues to do what they've been using every flimsy excuse, over the past 40 years, to do? I don't.

That prick in Syria could use an extra hole in his head, as well.

Killing is the answer! Why stop at at just a few of them? let's kill a bunch and then they will be our friends!

[Yonivore]

Killing is the answer!
Sometimes, sure.


Why stop at at just a few of them? let's kill a bunch and then they will be our friends!
No one suggested it be indiscriminate. And, frankly, I don't care if they're our friend or if they are just scared to death of us. I just want them to quit destabilizing the world with terrorism and the theocratic absolutism that says Islam will be spread, by force if necessary, over the entire planet.

[Yonivore]

Well, this will get him into the best Georgetown parties.

Gaddafi: Barakeh Obama is friend (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3877174,00.html)


Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi considers the US president a blessing to the Muslim world. In a speech published in London-based al-Hayat newspaper on Saturday, Gaddafi praised Barack Obama, called him a "friend" and said there is no longer any dispute between his country and the US.
Come to think of it, aren't Jeremiah Wright -- Obama's erstwhile spiritual mentor -- a big fan of the Libyan leader?

[boutons_deux]

Omar's biggest friend are the one with the $Bs.

Libya coerced US oil companies to pay for terrorism settlements, leaked cable shows

LONDON (Reuters) - Libya's ruling family tried to coerce billions of dollars from Libyan and foreign oil companies, and its leader Muammar Gaddafi exhorted the United States to sow division in Saudi Arabia, leaked American diplomatic cables reveal.

One cable seen by Reuters, sent from the U.S. embassy in Tripoli, shows Gaddafi's government exerting heavy pressure on U.S. and other oil companies to reimburse Tripoli the $1.5 billion Libya had paid in 2008 into a fund to settle terrorism claims from the 1980s.

The amount was the initial payment in a planned $1.8 billion fund. The cable suggests Gaddafi intended foreign oil companies to provide full funding for the scheme, which at the time was a key factor in improving ties between Libya and the United States.

Even before Libya paid into the fund, Gaddafi, "who prides himself on being a shrewd bargainer, made it clear that he intended to extract contributions from foreign companies to cover the ... initial outlay," according to the April 2009 cable titled "GOL ratchets up pressure on oil companies to contribute to U.S.-Libya claims fund."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/24/libya-coerced-us-oil-companies-to-pay-for-terrorism-settlements-leaked-cable-shows/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

[Yonivore]

Omar's biggest friend are the one with the $Bs.

Libya coerced US oil companies to pay for terrorism settlements, leaked cable shows

LONDON (Reuters) - Libya's ruling family tried to coerce billions of dollars from Libyan and foreign oil companies, and its leader Muammar Gaddafi exhorted the United States to sow division in Saudi Arabia, leaked American diplomatic cables reveal.

One cable seen by Reuters, sent from the U.S. embassy in Tripoli, shows Gaddafi's government exerting heavy pressure on U.S. and other oil companies to reimburse Tripoli the $1.5 billion Libya had paid in 2008 into a fund to settle terrorism claims from the 1980s.

The amount was the initial payment in a planned $1.8 billion fund. The cable suggests Gaddafi intended foreign oil companies to provide full funding for the scheme, which at the time was a key factor in improving ties between Libya and the United States.

Even before Libya paid into the fund, Gaddafi, "who prides himself on being a shrewd bargainer, made it clear that he intended to extract contributions from foreign companies to cover the ... initial outlay," according to the April 2009 cable titled "GOL ratchets up pressure on oil companies to contribute to U.S.-Libya claims fund."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/24/libya-coerced-us-oil-companies-to-pay-for-terrorism-settlements-leaked-cable-shows/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29
Notice how the words (red) in the story don't exactly confirm the subtitle (blue)? Did he coerce or merely attempt/intend to coerce?


...was a key factor in improving ties between Libya and the United States.
Also not true. The key factor to improving relations between Libya and the United States was the execution of Saddam Hussein. After the U.S. Military pulled him out that spider hole and the Iraqi people executed Hussein, the Libyan dictator suddenly became cooperative. Opened Libya to inspectors and completely dismantled -- under supervision -- his nuclear weapons program.

In exchange for that and his paying into the settlement, the United States started the process of normalizing relations.

[Nbadan]

I think its completely wrong to keep calling this shit "the facebook revolution".

:lol

....tell that to them!

IIev3MCuypk

[boutons_deux]

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/17/libya_diplomacy/index.html

===========

a no-fly zone war is an act of war. They will take out Libya air defenses and airbases first, pretty much like Iraq, I figure.

Where does it stop? Bahrain? Saudi Arabia? UAE?

[Drachen]

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/17/libya_diplomacy/index.html

===========

a no-fly zone war is an act of war. They will take out Libya air defenses and airbases first, pretty much like Iraq, I figure.

Where does it stop? Bahrain? Saudi Arabia? UAE?

I would have liked the rebels to win, and know that they are losing ground daily now, but I was pretty happy with our hands off approach to all of the revolutions. I am conflicted here, but was leaning toward letting them battle it out themselves. Oh well, we are committed now.

[ChumpDumper]

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

UN votes 10-to-0 in favor of no-fly zone in Libya

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/17/libya_diplomacy/index.htmlGreat, let's let France enforce it.

[Agloco]

Great, let's let France enforce it.

Yeah, they could team up with the Arab League on this one. :lol

[Drachen]

Yeah, they could team up with the Arab League on this one. :lol

Every time I see this I think of a comic book. "THE ARAB LEAGUE" by DC Comics