Dirk v 'Melo

[Blackjack]

Sure this has been discussed plenty but my name's Blackjack and I get to do what I want. Neal with it.

With that said, I've got plenty of respect for both of their talents. What I have a hard time convincing myself of is that either of them is a real No. 1 for a championship team.

Dirk's probably both underrated and underrated, depending on what circles or pockets you find yourself in, but my problem with him is this: he's too gifted and talent to have that kind of skillset at the power forward position.

As succinctly as I can put it, he's not a defender or a real noteworthy rebounder but he's an unbelievably good, efficient scorer. Because what he excels at is being a scorer and creating mismatches with his size, the offense begins and ends with him a good amount of the time down the stretch. How many big men have led their team to a title having that much of an offensive burden put on them? Keep in mind, we're talking about big men that don't defend or rebound the ball at any real noteworthy level.

Just doesn't happen. For it to happen a team would have to find just the perfect compliment of players to augment Nowitzki's game, essentially having perimeter players playing "big" so Dirk could play "small" (and that's in reference to skillset not German strudel).

That's why I'd find it easier to go with Gasol at my 4 than Dirk, even though I believe Dirk is clearly the better player. It's just a matter of the type of skill they bring to the position and to the overall team in compliment.

'Melo throws it in reverse to throw his punches - not a No. 1.

But aside from that, he's a physical mismatch/nightmare at the 3 and one of the Top 3 scorers when it comes to doing it with ease. He's a beast when he's on his game.

He's also an underwhelming rebounder, especially considering the physicality and athleticism he displays on a nightly basis, and he's indifferent to defense.

In fairness to 'Melo, he is without a doubt the greatest self-congratulatory player in the history of the NBA. Guy is phenomenal. But with regards to leading a team as its No. 1 to a championship?

Not so much.

When it comes to attitude, professionalism and just the kind of guy I'd feel more comfortable entrusting a max contract to, I'm gonna go Dirk hands-down.

But ... I think it may be easier to build a team with 'Melo doing his thing from the 3 than Dirk at the 4 ... which would mean, in terms of trying to win a championship, I'd probably have to do what I've done for Gasol in past discussions and pick 'Melo over Dirk.

The question is, are either of these two players championship Numero Unos with the right pieces, and are those pieces there to be found for either of them given both their pros and cons?

I'd have to say 'Melo makes a better No. 1 for a team than Dirk. But ... I don't think either of those teams gets led to a championship with those two being asked to play that role.

Therefore, Give me Dirk as a No. 2 and I'll feel pretty damn confident with my team's chances. I think Dirk's got more of what's needed to be a No. 2 than 'Melo has to be a No. 1 (which is seemingly all he can be).

Omnipotently, I cede the floor.

[Ghazi]

tl;dr

[Blackjack]

I read and wrote it. Neal with it.

[Mel_13]

Dirk's probably both underrated and underrated,

That's gotta be hard to do..

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Dirk v 'Melo

:lol

[Blackjack]

That's gotta be hard to do..

Not on this board. :lol

[jjktkk]

Interesting take. I'd go with Dirk over Melo.

[Blackjack]

:lol

:lmao

What are we laughing at, mucca?


Interesting take. I'd go with Dirk over Melo.

Just a preference if given the choice or do you think building a champion around Dirk as a No. 1 is doable?

[Greg Oden]

Just a preference if given the choice or do you think building a champion around Dirk as a No. 1 is doable?

yeah why not? he came within 4 and half quarters to one whilst dragging the THF and Smokey with him.

Alot closer than Melo has taken a team with comparable talent around him, tbh.

[Blackjack]

yeah why not? he came within 4 and half quarters to one whilst dragging the THF and Smokey with him.

Alot closer than Melo has taken a team with comparable talent around him, tbh.

True dat. And I've taken it under consideration.

But you've also gotta ask yourself, given all that went right for the Mavs that year in route to the Finals, great fortune against the Spurs and an Amar'e-less Suns team awaiting them in the WCF, if not then ... when?

I don't believe they would have gotten by a healthy Spurs and/or Suns team that year, but no one gives a damn if you win. So it's neither here nor there.

Fact of the matter is, all things being equal, the Heat were probably the fifth best team that year - after the Spurs, Suns, Mavs and Pistons. But they managed to get there so give 'em their props.

But the Mavs cannot lose that series. Cannot. And in the fashion they lost it, at that stage of the game? A championship No. 1 doesn't allow that to happen. No excuses. Great guy, helluva talent ... but he had the superior team, his team had their foot on the Heat's collective throat and they came up empty.

Question I have is, if that's 'Melo with that team, does he seal the deal?

Probably, imo. But I don't know that you can ever expect to combine that good fortune with a roster as well-assembled for him to take advantage of the opportunity.

[Greg Oden]

Question I have is, if that's 'Melo with that team, does he seal the deal?



I too have always pondered if Melo could've stopped Wade from getting the line a record amount of times.


oh and :lol at your "if the Spurs were healthy" comment. They lost game 7 on their home court to the Chokericks. Sorry I ain't buying it.

[Nick Manning]

Dirk, for reasons already listed...but Melo would obviously be the choice if we're talking longterm

[Blackjack]

I too have always pondered if Melo could've stopped Wade from getting the line a record amount of times.

The Mavs wilted. It's a cop-out to suggest the only reason they lost was a poor whistle.


oh and :lol at your "if the Spurs were healthy" comment. They lost game 7 on their home court to the Chokericks. Sorry I ain't buying it.

It's a fact. The same officiating that is blamed for the Mavs Finals defeat is the same officiating that benefited them against the Spurs. There were plenty of people disparaging the refs during that series not wearing or working for the Black and Silver. But it's gets lost in retrospect because of when it happened and the lasting images of the season being the Finals.

The Spurs did come back from down 3-1, though, and nearly pulled off the victory - with a Duncan who couldn't sustain his play into the fourth because of his plantar fasciitis.

But shit happens. Injuries, blown calls good/bad fortune ... it's part of the game. The Mavs had things break there way that year, as is the case with most teams that make it to the Finals, they just had more than most - no Amar'e in the next round and an inferior Heat team awaiting them in the Finals.

I'm guessing 'Melo takes advantage of the way the game's called better than Dirk at that stage. He probably goes off in one of the 2-3 games needed to close that Heat out. I'm just not sure you can say he'd ever be put into that fortuitous of a situation.

Which is why I have a hard time believing either is a No. 1 for a championship team - the No. 1 go-to scorer.

[Greg Oden]

The Mavs wilted. It's a cop-out to suggest the only reason they lost was a poor whistle.





As if your Spurs injury excuse isn't a cop out.

Saying Melo would've taken the Mavs to a title is just a random reach in the dark, tbqh.

[Blackjack]

wade shoots a record number of ft's in a finals series for fun while jet and smokey jack off and all of the sudden dirk is a terrible leader :cry

Seriously, I don't think Dirk is a terrible leader at all. I just don't think his skillset at the 4 lends to him being a No. 1 on a championship team.

Like I said, it's really like he's too talented for the skillset he possesses. It's a fucking no-brainer you want to milk him for all he's worth, he's that fucking good offensively, but I've yet to see a player at his position be asked to do what he does for a team (pro and con) and bring home the Larry O'Brien.

Maybe he'll be the first. It's not out of the realm if just the right mix of complimentary skillsets are put along side of him, it just seems highly unlikely from my vantage point.

[Nick Manning]

I don't see how it was Dirk's fault the Mavs wilted in the finals. Even late in that series (Game 5) he hit what would've been the GW shot (w/o Stack that game) had the refs not bailed out Wade at the end.

I agree that the officials are not to blame for that series (although the end of game 5 was pretty sketch), but neither is Dirk. He played like a #1 in the Finals

[Blackjack]

As if your Spurs injury excuse isn't a cop out.

Saying Melo would've taken the Mavs to a title is just a random reach in the dark, tbqh.

If you know something to be true, you see it with your own eyes and are asked to give an opinion or assessment on what happened, you give it, right?

I know the motherfucking Spurs. I don't sit here and debate what could have been, what should have been or what might have been. Shit happens - I never thought I'd see one title much less four.

The Spurs should have won that series, imo. No doubt in my mind. Even with the injuries, questionable officiating and terrible personnel decisions by Pop (before Avery going small against the Warriors Pop showed him how it was done against the Mavs), the Spurs should have still been able to close the deal. They almost did - no one gives a fuck.

As for 'Melo, that's not what I was getting at. What I was doing was using a situation and circumstance to show where I think you can differentiate between them. Put 'Melo in that 3-1 position and I'm guessing he takes advantage of the officiating with his quickness size and physicality going to the rim the way Wade did. I'm pretty sure he reacts better to the adversity as an offensive player given an equally well-constructed team.

It's a hypothetical for debate. That's all.

[jjktkk]

Dirk is a great player. Easily a top 10 player, but a #1? Hard to say, but how many true #1 type players are out there right now? Kobe? Lebron? Howard? Imo, the Mavs biggest problems over the years, has been finding a reliable #2 option to par with Dirk. Early in Dirk's career, I thought Cuban was a idiot for constantly blowing up mav teams he assembled, but for the past few years, Dallas has kept the core together and I actually thought, before Butler got injured, that the this current group of Mavs was the most talented team in the Dirk era. I'd still take Dirk over Melo, because I've never seen Dirk quit, while Melo has at times.

[Blackjack]

I don't see how it was Dirk's fault the Mavs wilted in the finals. Even late in that series (Game 5) he hit what would've been the GW shot (w/o Stack that game) had the refs not bailed out Wade at the end.

I agree that the officials are not to blame for that series (although the end of game 5 was pretty sketch), but neither is Dirk. He played like a #1 in the Finals

I get how most Mav fans are with Dirk. I get it because he and Dave have both been unfairly labeled as being soft or chokers in their respective careers - they also both happen to be great guys beloved by their fan bases.

I'm not comparing them as players or in their greatness, but in their roles as being the No. 1 on a championship team. Fact of the matter is, and this ain't all that easy to say or write (but I believe it to be true), neither are No. 1 go-to guys for a champion. They both needed or need to have another go-to scorer on the post or on the perimeter that can get into the paint. Both Dave and Dirk's offense relied too much on the jumper and/or free throw line (teams could zone up Dave to take away his driving lanes in the playoffs to force him into the jumper more than one would like).

It's not like neither of them weren't really close to being No. 1 go-to guys, it's that they were so close without being it that it cast them in roles they just weren't suited to play. Thus the unfair criticism - and protective fan bases that come out of the woodworks to defend their honor and champion each of their causes . . .

[ElNono]

I agree Dirk would make a heck of second banana... very much like Kobe did under Shaq. The kind of guy that can bring instant offense when your top guy is being quadruple-teamed and can get your team over the top.

I'm not sold Melo would though. I mean, he could score out of his mind, but I think Dirk has a better concept of the team game overall. I see Dirk being the smarter basketball player and making better decisions. And that's the kind of mindset you need to win it all, IMO. You don't force anything, you make the other team make decisions and make them pay for the decisions they make. I think Dirk is better suited for that kind of role, even if his career is starting to decline.

[Shank]

Are we debating whether or not Dirk is a #1, your core guy on which everything else is built upon? 10+ 50 win seasons says he's a pretty damn good centerpiece, taking into account all the guys that have come and gone in that span of time. As long as he remains a difficult guy to defend and one that other teams have to gameplan around, he'll be considered as a #1-type.

[Obstructed_View]

According to ESPN, the two worst playoff performers by winning percentage in the NBA:

1. Eduardo Najera
2. Carmelo Anthony

Dirk has had a thousand different lineups, and several coaches, yet his team is always relevant. That speaks volumes for his value.

[Phillip]

It's a fact. The same officiating that is blamed for the Mavs Finals defeat is the same officiating that benefited them against the Spurs.

bullfuckingshit

no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.

however its quite common for people who are not mavs fans to consider the 2006 Finals to be the most controversial finals in NBA history, as well as other players in the NBA talked about how awful the officiating was in the Finals, including T-Mac who was playing for the Rockets (a Mavs rival) at the time, and had absolutely no reason to be backing the Mavs just for the sake of it. dont forget about Tim Donaghy talking about it being rigged in his book as well.


now the Mavs most definitely could have won the series despite the controversy going on, but it wasnt entirely Dirk's fault that they lost the series. I'd say a much bigger chunk was on the heads of guys like Jason Terry and Josh Howard being fucking dumbasses and suddenly forgetting how to hit a wide open 10 foot jumpshot. Dirk consistently went to work on the Heat throughout the series, whether by torching them constantly with difficult shots, or by setting his team up with open looks. Don't forget the amazing fade-away he hit in game 5 that SHOULD have sealed the game, until Wade went sprinting out of control, having no control of the ball nor his body, pretty much punched Dirk in the stomach and somehow got a foul called on Dirk.

[Phillip]

Dirk is a great player. Easily a top 10 player, but a #1? Hard to say, but how many true #1 type players are out there right now? Kobe? Lebron? Howard? Imo, the Mavs biggest problems over the years, has been finding a reliable #2 option to par with Dirk. Early in Dirk's career, I thought Cuban was a idiot for constantly blowing up mav teams he assembled, but for the past few years, Dallas has kept the core together and I actually thought, before Butler got injured, that the this current group of Mavs was the most talented team in the Dirk era. I'd still take Dirk over Melo, because I've never seen Dirk quit, while Melo has at times.

It would depend on how you define a #1. If its a guy who can lead a team to a title, then there are only two true #1s in the NBA right now, Kobe and Wade. I'd say that's an unfair way to define a #1.

[cheguevara]

Dirk by a mile

[Killakobe81]

I get how most Mav fans are with Dirk. I get it because he and Dave have both been unfairly labeled as being soft or chokers in their respective careers - they also both happen to be great guys beloved by their fan bases.

I'm not comparing them as players or in their greatness, but in their roles as being the No. 1 on a championship team. Fact of the matter is, and this ain't all that easy to say or write (but I believe it to be true), neither are No. 1 go-to guys for a champion. They both needed or need to have another go-to scorer on the post or on the perimeter that can get into the paint. Both Dave and Dirk's offense relied too much on the jumper and/or free throw line (teams could zone up Dave to take away his driving lanes in the playoffs to force him into the jumper more than one would like).

It's not like neither of them weren't really close to being No. 1 go-to guys, it's that they were so close without being it that it cast them in roles they just weren't suited to play. Thus the unfair criticism - and protective fan bases that come out of the woodworks to defend their honor and champion each of their causes . . .

David was better all-around player but Dirk was more "clutch" than David. Even though both were "finesse" on offense (especially Dirk) I think dirk has been much better in late game situations ...the first round loss to GSW is the only true meltdown ... IMHO ...

[Brazil]

Dirk by a mile too, he lead the mavs during a decade of +50 W. Melo has not that kind of visit card and he is not performing specially well in POs.

The other point is the "Dirk is a liability in defense" legend. Dirk is no Tim Duncan but IMHO he is a very decent defender, he is not the toughest guy on one on one but he plays good team defense, his transition is good, he is clever and knows where to be positionned. You just need to pair him with the right guy. Chandler is a very good fit for him and the result was one of the best Defending during large stretches this season.

[Phillip]

The other point is the "Dirk is a liability in defense" legend. Dirk is no Tim Duncan but IMHO he is a very decent defender, he is not the toughest guy on one on one but he plays good team defense, his transition is good, he is clever and knows where to be positionned. You just need to pair him with the right guy. Chandler is a very good fit for him and the result was one of the best Defending during large stretches this season.

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.

but they key here is Chandler. any team that has a guy who can man the paint at an elite level, will instantly make every defender on the team considerably better. pretty much all of the best defenders in NBA history, always had someone who manned the middle well, or a great team defense concept, focused on clogging the lane effectively. if the middle is protected well, anyone will look exponentially better on defense. this is why I think people knock Nash too much for his defense as well. He's not a great defender by any means (like Dirk), but if he had a legit interior defender, he wouldn't look nearly as bad as he does. and people forget quickly how guys like Magic and Bird were actually pretty bad defenders like Dirk and Nash, but due to the great interior defenses they had, they didnt end up giving up quite so much on the defensive end.

[jjktkk]

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.

but they key here is Chandler. any team that has a guy who can man the paint at an elite level, will instantly make every defender on the team considerably better. pretty much all of the best defenders in NBA history, always had someone who manned the middle well, or a great team defense concept, focused on clogging the lane effectively. if the middle is protected well, anyone will look exponentially better on defense. this is why I think people knock Nash too much for his defense as well. He's not a great defender by any means (like Dirk), but if he had a legit interior defender, he wouldn't look nearly as bad as he does. and people forget quickly how guys like Magic and Bird were actually pretty bad defenders like Dirk and Nash, but due to the great interior defenses they had, they didnt end up giving up quite so much on the defensive end.

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

[Phillip]

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

not sure if you are talking about a guy who just scores by low-post-up offense, or by a #2 scoring option. I assume its the latter. Hopefully that can be Roddy.

[jjktkk]

not sure if you are talking about a guy who just scores by low-post-up offense, or by a #2 scoring option. I assume its the latter. Hopefully that can be Roddy.

Correct, but if you could have both....

[The 4cc Dictionary]

Dirk and Dallas are still looking for their "McHale".

ha! i wouldn't buy det for a dollar!

[Phillip]

Correct, but if you could have both....

It would be cool if the Mavs could get Nene. I think he would be a better guy for long term to get, but for right now, I think the perfect fit would be either Prince, Gerald Wallace, or SJax. They all bring different things to the table though. I think Prince would be the easiest overall fit with the team, Wallace fits the biggest needs (strong, athletic defender who attacks relentlessly on offense), and SJax has the potential for most reward but is also the most risky.

[jjktkk]

It would be cool if the Mavs could get Nene. I think he would be a better guy for long term to get, but for right now, I think the perfect fit would be either Prince, Gerald Wallace, or SJax. They all bring different things to the table though. I think Prince would be the easiest overall fit with the team, Wallace fits the biggest needs (strong, athletic defender who attacks relentlessly on offense), and SJax has the potential for most reward but is also the most risky.

If SJAX is motivated, he would be ideal. And going to a contender, he would be.

[Phillip]

If SJAX is motivated, he would be ideal. And going to a contender, he would be.

Yeah, I know in the offseason he really wanted to come home to a Texas team as well.

He hasnt been especially efficient in the past few years, but playing with Dirk and Kidd should make a tremendous difference. Just gotta hope he stays motivated after this year.

[cheguevara]

saying Dirk is a choker therefore Melo > Dirk is retarded.

Melo might not be a full blown choker like Dirk. But he is lazy and dumb. Neither player is going to carry a team in clutch time through multiple series. I'd still take the better and more experienced player. That is Dirk.

[Obstructed_View]

bullfuckingshit

no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.

however its quite common for people who are not mavs fans to consider the 2006 Finals to be the most controversial finals in NBA history, as well as other players in the NBA talked about how awful the officiating was in the Finals, including T-Mac who was playing for the Rockets (a Mavs rival) at the time, and had absolutely no reason to be backing the Mavs just for the sake of it. dont forget about Tim Donaghy talking about it being rigged in his book as well.


now the Mavs most definitely could have won the series despite the controversy going on, but it wasnt entirely Dirk's fault that they lost the series. I'd say a much bigger chunk was on the heads of guys like Jason Terry and Josh Howard being fucking dumbasses and suddenly forgetting how to hit a wide open 10 foot jumpshot. Dirk consistently went to work on the Heat throughout the series, whether by torching them constantly with difficult shots, or by setting his team up with open looks. Don't forget the amazing fade-away he hit in game 5 that SHOULD have sealed the game, until Wade went sprinting out of control, having no control of the ball nor his body, pretty much punched Dirk in the stomach and somehow got a foul called on Dirk.

Since I've always blamed Pop benching the centers for the loss, I'm happy to chime in here: The exact same thing Spurs fans said about the semis is what the Mavericks fans said during the finals. Duncan got fouled out of a game by having his foot stepped on. Mark Cuban took credit for the officiating until it came back to bite his team.

I've also said this for years: The officials didn't prevent Dirk from hitting free throws in the clutch.

[Blackjack]

bullfuckingshit

no one aside from spurfans complained one bit about officiating during or after the series between the spurs and mavs. it was a poorly officiated series, but for both teams. Timmy and the Spurs got just as many phantom fouls as Dirk and the Mavs got. You can talk about when Dirk stepped on Timmy's foot and barely got touched, resulting in an and-1, then I can site Dirk having a wide-open offensive putback to win a game, that he was unable to do because Parker yanked his jersey and pulled him off balance.


Sam Smith, writing for MSNBC (http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/18064691/), says that if the referees hurt any team in the playoffs last year, it was the Spurs, who lost to Dallas: "I am not one to blame officiating in a loss, especially given the high quality of NBA officials and the horrendous officiating you see elsewhere in basketball, like in the NCAA tournament. But Dallas absolutely stole Games 3 and 4 in Dallas, and I've since had referees tell me they felt the younger officials tend to be intimidated by Cuban and all the referee scrutiny he maintains with former officials on his staff and regular reports to the league. It never became much of an issue because the Spurs remain perhaps the classiest and most professional of organizations, and never complain about apparent inequities. You can imagine what would have happened if the calls went against the Mavs that way."

Just one example ... but you get the picture.

[Juan]

Melo>Dirk not even close.

[Blackjack]

And just to be clear, I don't debate officiating, injury or otherwise in an effort to achieve some kind of satisfaction over past failure. Shit happens.

But if you're going to to try and figure out why certain things happen, whether they could happen again or if certain players are better or more capable of getting you to those lofty heights all teams aspire to (sans any team led by Donald Sterling), you have to look at all of the mitigating factors if you want to get the best read and make your best guess.

As for Dirk v 'Melo, I made the thread because of all the hype 'Melo was getting. All the talk of him being a legit No. 1 and a difference maker for the Knicks. I just don't buy it.

If you're just asking me who I'd rather have to lead my franchise, it's Dirk. No doubt, without hesitation. I don't believe because of his skillset and position he can be your No. 1 and go-to scorer on a championship team because the pieces needed to compliment and compensate for his strengths and weaknesses are almost an impossible find - not impossible, just unlikely to find.

Really, I think you could win a championship with Dirk as your best player, just not your No. 1 and go-to guy down the stretch. Conversely, I think you could win with 'Melo as your go-to guy down the stretch and No. 1 on the pecking order or marquee, but not as your best player.

[Juan]

dirk is aight but melo has the better fadaway jumper. that puts him ahead right there.

[# 1 Troll]

i heard that charlotte is looking to move either or BOTH sjax/wallace. if so, i'd offer butler/stephenson's expirings, plus beaubois and as many picks/cash we can offer in a heartbeat

lol 3.66 gpa in college
lol also full time blood

[Blackjack]

David was better all-around player but Dirk was more "clutch" than David. Even though both were "finesse" on offense (especially Dirk) I think dirk has been much better in late game situations ...the first round loss to GSW is the only true meltdown ... IMHO ...

I specifically said I wasn't comparing Dave and Dirk as players nor is this thread about Dirk being a choker.

There are parallels between the two players (Dave and Dirk), how they are/were treated by their fans and detractors and the roles they had on their respective teams as their franchise players, but that's where the comparison ends.

I'm not gonna turn a Dirk v 'Melo thread into a Dave v Dirk thread. It's irrelevant to this thread and why it came about.

'Melo's why I asked the question.

[Phillip]

I've also said this for years: The officials didn't prevent Dirk from hitting free throws in the clutch.

Yes, Dirk missing ONE key FT in one game is the equivalent of the shitstorm of bogus calls that took place in games 3, 5, and 6.

not to mention that it would have only TIED the game with plenty of time for the Heat to still get a shot off at the other end (or likely a gift-wrapped pair of free-throws)

[Shank]

dirk is aight but melo has the better fadaway jumper. that puts him ahead right there.

Um?

[Juan]

Um?

you heard me nigga. Dirk is da better perimeter defender, i'll give him dat. but melo is better fadaway jumpshooter n better on the block and ft line.

[in2deep]

you realize fadeaways are not really a necessary part of the game right?

[JamStone]

I think they're actually comparable players. Both devastatingly difficult match-ups to defend at their offensive end. Both elite scorers. Neither notably great defenders. Dirk has been around longer and has had multiple great playoff performances. Melo hasn't had any real signature playoff performance. Maybe that game 5 against the Hornets that finally got Denver out of the first round in forever. Perhaps the clinching game 5 against Dallas in round 2 of 2009, but I think Billups was better that game and Melo actually had a better game in game 4 but it was a loss. Melo needs a few more signature playoff performances to catch up to Dirk.

This has been mentioned before, but I do disagree that Dirk is not a good rebounder. Throughout most of his career up until recently, he has been an exceptional defensive rebounder. And that goes largely unnoticed because of criticisms of his defense and because he's not a very good offensive rebounder, his overall rebounding numbers don't look as gaudy. But he's been a great defensive rebounder for much of his career. I also think Melo is underrated as a passer. I think Melo is actually a pretty good passer. But he's almost always played with ball dominating guards, from Andre Miller to Iverson to Chauncey. Melo might not be the most willing passer, but he hasn't really been asked to be a facilitator either, not like Kobe or LeBron or Wade or Joe Johnson or Manu are from off the ball positions. Yet, Melo has averaged about 3 assists a game over his career. Considering he isn't a primary ball handler, I think that's more than solid.

As for being a true #1, I think both are. You don't have to win a championship to be a bonafide #1 guy in the league. Championships are often won with the players you surround superstars with. Guys like Barkley, Ewing, Malone, Dominique were still #1s without the ring. So are Dirk and Melo. You don't need a title to be a true #1. And being a true #1 doesn't mean you'll win one.

As for who is a better #1 to lead a team to a championship, while it's close, I think I'd go with Carmelo based on a couple things. Even though when he's on, Dirk is about as unstoppable on offense as anyone in the league, I like Carmelo's skillset on offense more because he has a higher percentage offense to fall back on. If his midrange jumper isn't falling, he can get in the post where he'll outmuscle defenders going to the rim aggressively. Even with Dirk gets in the mid post and backs his defender down, he still settles for a fade-away jumper most of the time. I like Melo finishing at the rim and having a better chance at going to the line more. And while he has yet to show it, I think Melo has the physical abilities to do more on both offense and defense. I think Melo could be a solid defender, not great or elite, but solid. Whether he will be, who knows? Probably not. And I do think Melo has the skill to be more of a facilitator. With Amare, I do expect Melo to rack up more assists than he's averaged before. That said, I don't think the difference between Melo and Dirk is significant in terms of who I'd rather have as my #1 for a championship run. Dirk has done more and gotten closer. And even now, I think Dirk has a better cast around him on his team to make a legit title run than Carmelo has or does with either the Nuggets or Knicks.

[Juan]

you realize fadeaways are not really a necessary part of the game right?

hardest shot to guard nigga. jordan-sick fadaway-rings. kobe-sick fadaway-rings. wade-sick fadway-rings.

lebron-no fadaway-no rings.

no fadaway=no rings. check the film son

[Shank]

Will Carmelo still be able to perform like he is in 6 years when he's Dirk's age?

[Shank]

hardest shot to guard nigga. jordan-sick fadaway-rings. kobe-sick fadaway-rings. wade-sick fadway-rings.

lebron-no fadaway-no rings.

no fadaway=no rings. check the film son

That makes little sense, but you do realize that one of Dirk's signature moves is that one-legged fadeaway, right?

[Juan]

Will Carmelo still be able to perform like he is in 6 years when he's Dirk's age?

no question bout it son. he prob have 3 rings by that time also.

[Juan]

That makes little sense, but you do realize that one of Dirk's signature moves is that one-legged fadeaway, right?

nah he got no fadaway game. he all about the dunk. he got the dunk over melo i give him that. he cant shoot tho

[Shank]

nah he got no fadaway game. he all about the dunk. he got the dunk over melo i give him that. he cant shoot tho

Who, or what, are you?

[JamStone]

Lol

[Blackjack]

Who, or what, are you?

It'd be awesome if he were JuanStone.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, Dirk missing ONE key FT in one game is the equivalent of the shitstorm of bogus calls that took place in games 3, 5, and 6.

not to mention that it would have only TIED the game with plenty of time for the Heat to still get a shot off at the other end (or likely a gift-wrapped pair of free-throws)

Missed free throw, a player suspended, yet you whine about the exact same calls that Dirk got two series earlier.

One-sided officiating in Mav opponent's favor = Bad officiating: Travesty!

One-sided officiating in Mavs favor = Well, bad calls went both ways

The Mavs and their fans were planning the parade after game three.

[Shank]

Missed free throw, a player suspended, yet you whine about the exact same calls that Dirk got two series earlier.

One-sided officiating in Mav opponent's favor = Bad officiating: Travesty!

One-sided officiating in Mavs favor = Well, bad calls went both ways

The Mavs and their fans were planning the parade after game three.

People don't lament over dead parents as long as this.

[Phillip]

Missed free throw, a player suspended, yet you whine about the exact same calls that Dirk got two series earlier.

One-sided officiating in Mav opponent's favor = Bad officiating: Travesty!

One-sided officiating in Mavs favor = Well, bad calls went both ways

The Mavs and their fans were planning the parade after game three.
:sleep

[FF1]

If Spurs fans are saying Dirk, you know it's not even close. I'm sure that any coach would much rather scheme against Melo than they would against Dirk.

[Obstructed_View]

People don't lament over dead parents as long as this.

I agree. Your team got beat. You should let it go.

[Phillip]

Melo does have more upside than Dirk does, but he hasnt reached the full potential of his upside either.

[Obstructed_View]

Melo does have more upside than Dirk does, but he hasnt reached the full potential of his upside either.

Well Melo's had some pretty talented teams, and Dirk has just managed to succeed in virtually every situation.

New York is Carmelo's chance to reach his potential. If he can't make it there, he can't make it anywhere.

[FkLA]

I'd take Dirk tbh.

I really liked Melo but he's just another one of those incredibly talented players that doesnt seem to care. Always smiling and lollygagging on the court. You know guys like Duncan, Kobe, Manu, Rose, Durant, and even Wade are all business and go hard all game. While faggots like Bosh, DHoward, and at times LeBron seem to care more about looking cute out there on the court. I hate this new era of superstars that think its cool to look disinterested or something, or to smile all game long. Dirk falls into the former and Melo into the latter imo. Completely irrelevant to their talents but I dont see those type of disinterested players leading teams to titles. Even Dirk has a better chance at doing that. Give me him.

[Obstructed_View]

Carmelo ran to the eastern conference so he only has to play Manu twice a year.

[mardigan]

Melo has never scared me when the Spurs played against the Nuggets, ever. Dirk scares the shit out of me everytime the Mavs and Spurs play. Dirk, at this point of their careers, is a much better number one option.

[FkLA]

Carmelo ran to the eastern conference so he only has to play Manu twice a year.

Truth. Can't say I blame him either.

[Jodelo]

Dirk, not even a question!

[JamStone]

I'd take Dirk tbh.

I really liked Melo but he's just another one of those incredibly talented players that doesnt seem to care. Always smiling and lollygagging on the court. You know guys like Duncan, Kobe, Manu, Rose, Durant, and even Wade are all business and go hard all game. While faggots like Bosh, DHoward, and at times LeBron seem to care more about looking cute out there on the court. I hate this new era of superstars that think its cool to look disinterested or something, or to smile all game long. Dirk falls into the former and Melo into the latter imo. Completely irrelevant to their talents but I dont see those type of disinterested players leading teams to titles. Even Dirk has a better chance at doing that. Give me him.

Kevin Garnett falls in the former category.

Shaquille O'Neal falls in the latter.

[Obstructed_View]

Let's not let their off-court demeanor cloud reality, please. Kevin Garnett wishes he were the warrior Shaq has been throughout his career.

[Findog]

Let's not let their off-court demeanor cloud reality, please. Kevin Garnett wishes he were the warrior Shaq has been throughout his career.

Shaq is such a waste of talent. He should have won twice as many titles as he did. At his peak he was what, a 35/16 guy? Garnett's teams have won big any time he has been surrounded by adequate talent. Garnett is a bit of a soft bully in the way he only picks on guards and wing players and never anybody his own size, but he is much more of a warrior than Shaq. That's not the same as claiming he was better at his peak than Shaq was at his, just that Garnett's work ethic was much better and he milked every last ounce of achievement out of his body in a way that Shaq didn't come close to doing.

[Shank]

I've missed you, Fin.

[Findog]

I've missed you, Fin.

I'm slowly becoming myself again. I have an appetite for posting in the forum again.

[mardigan]

I'm slowly becoming myself again. I have an appetite for posting in the forum again.

Well it's good to have you back my friend.

[Findog]

Well it's good to have you back my friend.

Thanks. I feel 60 percent healed these days.

[Shank]

Fin - PM me. I'll hook you up with my tickets to the Mavs/Spurs game on March 18th.

[Killakobe81]

I specifically said I wasn't comparing Dave and Dirk as players nor is this thread about Dirk being a choker.

There are parallels between the two players (Dave and Dirk), how they are/were treated by their fans and detractors and the roles they had on their respective teams as their franchise players, but that's where the comparison ends.

I'm not gonna turn a Dirk v 'Melo thread into a Dave v Dirk thread. It's irrelevant to this thread and why it came about.

'Melo's why I asked the question.

I get that, and didnt meant to hi-jack thread or denigrate David. Was just making a point. I would at this point in their careers take Dirk. Just like I would take Kobe over Lebron ...
BUT Dirk is at his peak now Melo has a chance to get better same for Lebron.
As good as Lebron and Melo have been neither have accomplished yet what Kobe, Dirk or duncan has ...

so to answer the question, depends if you say right now or for the future ...
Melo still has a chance (though he may not ever get there) to be greater than dirk when it's all over ....Dirk wont be better than he is now ...most likely.

[Killakobe81]

And was not making this about kobe either ... obviously right now Lebron is more dominating player and has the chance to pass Kobe ...some feel he may already have (career wise) ...

[Findog]

And was not making this about kobe either ... obviously right now Lebron is more dominating player and has the chance to pass Kobe ...some feel he may already have (career wise) ...

LeBron is certainly more productive and consistent when it comes to the regular season, but Kobe seems to have more of a killer instinct in the playoffs. Just my opinion. I still think those Cavs teams could have won a title, if either A) they had somehow been able to avoid a bad matchup in Orlando, since the playoffs are about luck to a certain degree in not drawing your Achilles Heel and B) he didn't quit against Boston last year.

[JamStone]

Shaq is such a waste of talent. He should have won twice as many titles as he did. At his peak he was what, a 35/16 guy? Garnett's teams have won big any time he has been surrounded by adequate talent. Garnett is a bit of a soft bully in the way he only picks on guards and wing players and never anybody his own size, but he is much more of a warrior than Shaq. That's not the same as claiming he was better at his peak than Shaq was at his, just that Garnett's work ethic was much better and he milked every last ounce of achievement out of his body in a way that Shaq didn't come close to doing.

:toast

Yeah the forum has missed your posting.

[Axe Murderer]

Fin, bringin the goods as always

:cry great poster

[MavDynasty]

Fin, bringin the goods as always

:cry great poster

:tu

[JamStone]

Let's not let their off-court demeanor cloud reality, please. Kevin Garnett wishes he were the warrior Shaq has been throughout his career.

I hope you're not serious.

KG for all his barking and bitchassness since joining the Celtics, you can never question his passion for the game or his effort level on the court. You're blinded by some varying degree of hate to think Shaq is more of a warrior than KG.

For all his dominance, Shaq, as Fin pointed out, is such a wasted talent. He'd take portions of regular seasons off, didn't condition, train, or watch his diet, was just as enamored with a rap and film career as winning championships. Shaq is and always has been a combination of pure basketball dominance and a self-aggrandizing spectacle. If you give Shaq KG's work ethic, intensity, and desire to win, Shaq is in the conversation with Michael Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain as the greatest ever.

As FkLA was getting at, Shaq has been just as much about his image and how he entertained while KG (even with the barking) has always been about winning no matter how much of a douchebag he comes across as.

[ElNono]

I'd take Dirk tbh.

I really liked Melo but he's just another one of those incredibly talented players that doesnt seem to care. Always smiling and lollygagging on the court. You know guys like Duncan, Kobe, Manu, Rose, Durant, and even Wade are all business and go hard all game. While faggots like Bosh, DHoward, and at times LeBron seem to care more about looking cute out there on the court. I hate this new era of superstars that think its cool to look disinterested or something, or to smile all game long. Dirk falls into the former and Melo into the latter imo. Completely irrelevant to their talents but I dont see those type of disinterested players leading teams to titles. Even Dirk has a better chance at doing that. Give me him.

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/158389_o.gif

[Brazil]

Nice to have you back Findog !

[Brazil]

+1

well put. Dirk definitely is not an ideal defender, but he generally plays solid team defense, usually is good about being in proper position with the various defensive schemes he plays in, and you can tell that the defense suffers without his presence, because simply having that size and length instantly makes the defense a bit tougher to attack.



and this is exactly why it's easier IMHO to build around Dirk than Melo

[DesignatedT]

Fin - PM me. I'll hook you up with my tickets to the Mavs/Spurs game on March 18th.

I'll take those tickets. How much you asking son?

[FkLA]

I think the once in a lifetime players like Shaq can still have some sucess despite not having the work ethic of some of the other greats. I think LeBron wouldve eventually won a title in Celeveland as well. But I dont think the same could be said for someone like Dwight, and especially not Carmelo. These guys arent head and shoulders more skilled AND physically gifted than the rest of the elite players in this league...they require an exceptional drive to reach the top, which they dont seem to possess tbh. Its a shame really seeing so many superstar caliber players with these attitudes.

[FkLA]

http://www.gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/158389_o.gif

smh

+1 on the welcome back Findog posts too.

[Obstructed_View]

I hope you're not serious.

KG for all his barking and bitchassness since joining the Celtics, you can never question his passion for the game or his effort level on the court. You're blinded by some varying degree of hate to think Shaq is more of a warrior than KG.

Would you stop with the word "hate" please? It's ridiculous. My opinion is more of a nod to Shaq than a knock on KG. Shaq's a clown, and a self-promoting prima dona, but he's stepped up when it mattered throughout his career. He certainly doesn't belong in the second group mentioned, and holding up KG as the standard after his years of failure in Minnesota is ridiculous.

If you give Shaq the average NBA player's work ethic, he actually shows up in shape, likely has far fewer injuries, and puts up disgusting numbers over the course of his career.

[Killakobe81]

Some great points in this thread. Real basketball talk, whowouldathunkit?

Definitely agree about KG's work ethic, shaq with it is not only in the MJ convo but he would of been the GOAT IMHO. I never saw Wilt, so I cant say he would of been better than Wilt, Oscar or Russell ...but I saw Kareem and MJ and Shaq is not on their level, even at his peak but wasnt THAT far behind. I also agree it may not take KG's drive ....hell even Grant Hill's or Bernard King's drive to overcome the DEVESTATING injuries they faced, instead of Shaq's Bynumesque non chalant attitude in handling them, and Shaq is probably GOAT.

As for KG he may be an ass, and borderline dirty, but he does play the game hard ...always. You have to admire that. A guy that if he played with you would always appreciate, but against you that you would want to beat his ass ...but he was not very clutch in Minny ...and it can be argued that most of the clutch plays on offense for these Celts have NOT been delivered by KG in fact I can think of many times where he has not came through ...MOST of the clutch moments I have seen have been the key block, steal or rebound but those matter just as much because they set up Pierce and Ray to win it.

[Killakobe81]

I think one thing to keep in mind is the expectations we have for players shape the perceptions of both KG, shaq and many other great players. When we see great physical gifts, or players enter the NBA with a lot of hype ...even if they have great careers if it does not meet those expectations we judge more harshly. Here are some other examples:

1. David Robinson/Pat Ewing both were great college players. Neither was able to win a Finals as the alpha males of their teams. Though both are HOF's graded against what was expected of them though far from failures ...both get shortchanged because the expectation was that they would dominate the league but both came up short to Hakeem in the playoffs and MJ, who dominated their era. In another decade this one for instance David and Ewing at their peaks would probably be considered easily the best center in the NBA and maybe only behind Lebron
in the current NBA ...but because of what we expected ...they get the short end of the stick.

2. Shaq-We see the strength, the speed and quickness for a guy that size ...and we expect continual dominance. WE see the clanked FT's and limited jumper and we all assume he did not work on his game enough...but he did. My problem is not that he didnt work on his game but that he did not take care of his body or manage his injuries and or surgeries. No one can dispute that shaq is one of the all-time great Finals performers ...or that he was the most dominant big men of any era but when compared to Duncan, who not only worked on his game but maintained his body and though never blessed with a Wade or Kobe has won the same number of titles ...you can see why some (myself included) have issues with Shaq and find him "wanting" in comparison.

Duncan in his prime never had Shaq's speed and athleticism. He also looks "small" in comparison but Duncan makes the most out of what he does have: great footwork, high bball IQ and a committment to defense as much as offense, that I wish Shaq had more of in his game.

The 2000 MVP shaq>>>Duncan but most other years I take Tim, which for Shaq is a shame. Based on talent alone Shaq should be way better than Duncan ...but again that is how expectations work against you.

[Killakobe81]

Last point and sorry to hi-jack the thread ...but I thought the KG/shaq point was interesting:

Lebron. Because Lebron has every physical gift: positionally height, physique, speed, hops and the two MVP's for his amazing regular season play, EXPECTATIONS have been unrealistic for Lebron (especially since that ECF vs. Pistons) to have won a ring by now .. Even though it took MJ time, same for Shaq and many other great NBA talents to win their first title.
Sure Cleveland lost more than Lebron this season, but all of those expecting THAT (last year's Cavs) to win a title, were buying the media hype.
Lebron is one of the most dominating players I have ever seen but Shaq could not win before Kobe and MJ not until Pippen developed. Why should Lebron be any different? Lebron has never had a team-mate the caliber of Kobe, Wade pippen or Shaq. Now he does. If he does not win it THIS year this is the first time that he truly could be deemed a failure. Depth issues or not, he has two team-mates that are legit all-stars, not pseudo ones like Mo williams.

Now, I dont know if he truly did quit in last year's playoffs, or delonte banged his mom or if it was the elbow ...but based on the hype thrown on the heat this year none of those wil be accepted as valid, come may and June.

Im expecting Lebron's best like the 2nd half of sunday's ASG ...and the torch may be offically passed ...we shall see. If not, I will bash him like many do on here but either way I can not wait.