D-Will to the Nets

[djohn2oo8]

Utah has agreed to trade All-Star point guard Deron Williams to Nets in multi-player package, Yahoo! Sports has learned. Deal is done.

[djohn2oo8]

http://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/40440619373432832

[Lukor]

Now who saw that coming. NOBODY.

[tlongII]

I was just about to post this. Derrick Favors and Devin Harris to Utah for Deron Williams.

[lefty]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat ???????

[Cry Havoc]

http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/wat.jpg

[djohn2oo8]

Who the fuck is left in the West? Wow!!!

[Giuseppe]

Act of vengeance for running Sloan off.

[djohn2oo8]

As the Record first reported, The Nets will send Harris, Favors, 2 No1s to Utah for Williams. Murphy goes to GSW and Gadzuric and Wright. 1 minute (http://twitter.com/Al_Iannazzone/statuses/40441055707004928)

[Warlord23]

WTF? This one was totally out of the blue

[Phillip]

now I wonder what the Jazz plan to do with Harris. do they want to keep him or get rid of him? If the Mavs are still trying to get Harris, maybe they can get him for a bit cheaper. Or maybe it will make them stop dicking around and just do the trade for Gerald Wallace.

[ohmwrecker]

Can Sloan come back now?

[Cry Havoc]

Someone answer this... is Favors' trade value really THAT high? Holy crap.

[Kyle Orton]

This is why the Jazz will never win a title. They trade a great half-black point guard way below face value because he ran their overrated shitball stubborn coach off, but since the coach was 100% white Williams has become the enemy.

[mavsfan1000]

lol Deron Wiliams.

[sefant77]

Jazz took his 2012 comments seriously. Sloan coming back? ;)

[djohn2oo8]

So he is traded without agreeing to an extension, and can still walk at the end of the season over to the Knicks?

[jeebus]

the nyets still suck

[Cry Havoc]

Deron > Melo, TBH. The Nets look like geniuses right now. Maybe they will turn that franchise around. :wow

[sefant77]

So he is traded without agreeing to an extension, and can still walk at the end of the season over to the Knicks?

end of next season But 2012 the Nets will be almost in Brooklyn. Lets see which FA they can get 2011 and 2012

[JamStone]

Now who might Utah make available: Al Jefferson, Memo Okur, Millsap? I would guess it's Okur but hasn't he been injured most of the year? They might be willing to deal Jefferson but he's hurt his value so far this season.

[Kyle Orton]

Deron > Melo, TBH.

What is this based off?

[Kriz-Maxima]

Prokhorov wins.

[mavsfan1000]

Sloan is not coming back as he knew the season was done and they are even worse now.

[balli]

If they were gonna do this shit, it's a shame they let Sloan walk, cause 90% of that team groveled at his feet and now we got nothing; no hall of fame coach who ran shit like a college program, and no superstar. My guess is Sloan walked and our dumbass mormon ownership family felt something like buyer's regret.

This has been a crazy, fucked up season for Jazz fans. Back last October I don't think anyone could have in a million years predicted how insane this shit was going to turn out come February. I can't even process what's happened. It's just been fuckin' crazy, that's all I can say.

[JamStone]

What is this based off?

half black > full black

[Kyle Orton]

half black > full black

:tu half-white = class

[noob cake]

I'll take Deron Williams over Melo on any team, even if my SF combo is Sasha/Luke

[Cry Havoc]

What is this based off?

Melo: Better scorer, rebounder.

DWill: Better at basically everything else. :lol

Do you disagree? Williams is (was) an MVP candidate, plays better D, and makes his teammates MUCH better when he's on the floor. He carried a pretty bad Utah team and had them at the 5th seed in a pretty tough West before the wheels fell off. When's the last time Melo put a team on his back for any length of time?

[djohn2oo8]

Somewhere BrHornet is lovin' this

[NASpurs]

Deron > Melo, TBH. The Nets look like geniuses right now. Maybe they will turn that franchise around. :wow

Chad Ford agrees with you.

http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider/status/40444268187222017


Amazing. One day after Knicks beat Nets for Melo, Nets trump Knicks deal by landing DWill ... Williams > Melo

[JamStone]

I do wonder if the Nets will be able to keep him after 2011-12. He'll have plenty of suitors, particularly the Knicks. Lakers and Mavericks would be interested too but will have to manipulate a trade since they wouldn't be able to afford him outright as a free agent.

[carina_gino20]

Has SBNation been down today or is it because of the D Will trade. Huh, didn't see that coming. Now they have no Sloan and no D Will.

[Kyle Orton]

Melo: Better scorer, rebounder.

DWill: Better at basically everything else. :lol

Do you disagree? Williams is (was) an MVP candidate, plays better D, and makes his teammates MUCH better when he's on the floor. He carried a pretty bad Utah team and had them at the 5th seed in a pretty tough West before the wheels fell off. When's the last time Melo put a team on his back for any length of time?

:lmao you mention scoring and rebounding as if Melo being significantly better in both areas isn't a big deal.

And yeah, Williams makes his teammates better just like Nash, Paul, Westbrook, Stockton and Rose. How many championship did them "making their teammates better" lead to?

[Ice009]

Nice move from the Nets. Do people still feel sorry for them? ;).

[JamStone]

Now that that ballhog Devin Harris is out of the way and the Nets now have a real point guard, the Machine can really get his 20-30 points anytime he wants to.

[Cry Havoc]

And yeah, Williams makes his teammates better just like Nash, Paul, Westbrook, Stockton and Rose. How many championship did them "making their teammates better" lead to?

How many SFs who only score, don't know how to pass, and don't even know that defense is part of the NBA have ever led their teams to a title?

You act like Melo has a title lined up by going to the Knicks. :lol And :lol at listing 22 year old Derrick Rose as an example of point guards that haven't won titles. :lmao

[Kyle Orton]

How many SFs who only score, don't know how to pass, and don't even know that defense is part of the NBA have ever led their teams to a title?


Larry Bird

[monosylab1k]

Dr. J

[lefty]

Larry Bird
Larry Bird didnt know how to pass ?

[noob cake]

Melo is pretty garbage, poor man version of Durant. Completely gets owned by LeBron.

Rich man version of Rudy Gay/Danny Granger. Not as clutch as The Truth and plays shittier defense than Iggy.

Seriously, Melo is not that good.

[JamStone]

oops James Worthy

[monosylab1k]

Melo is pretty garbage, poor man version of Durant. Completely gets owned by LeBron.

Rich man version of Rudy Gay/Danny Granger. Not as clutch as The Truth and plays shittier defense than Iggy.

Seriously, Melo is not that good.

:lmao and if Houston would have gotten him, you'd be on here talking about how he's a top 10 player in the league.

[Kyle Orton]

Melo is pretty garbage, poor man version of Durant. Completely gets owned by LeBron.

Rich man version of Rudy Gay/Danny Granger. Not as clutch as The Truth and plays shittier defense than Iggy.

Seriously, Melo is not that good.

lol Rockets 2nd seed

[JamStone]

Devean George

[djohn2oo8]

Melo is pretty garbage, poor man version of Durant. Completely gets owned by LeBron.

Rich man version of Rudy Gay/Danny Granger. Not as clutch as The Truth and plays shittier defense than Iggy.

Seriously, Melo is not that good.

Just shut up

[Phillip]

Larry Bird

bird was a hellvua passer


Dr. J

truth

[monosylab1k]

Rick Barry

[Cry Havoc]

Deron > Melo. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Better rounded, younger, cheaper, better defender, and he makes his teammates better.

[Cry Havoc]

Dr. J

Well if we're going to go back THAT far... :lol

[Kyle Orton]

Deron > Melo. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Better rounded, younger, cheaper, better defender, and he makes his teammates better.

Deron Williams is 28 days younger than Carmelo Anthony. The fact that you mention he's "younger" exemplifies the straws you're grasping at.

[#41 Shoot Em Up]

Damn this came out of nowhere.

[Darthkiller]

utah got a pretty good pcakage back though.

nets no.1 pick which is gonna be a high lottery pick, favors, another pick , harris.

sitll nets came out winners.

cant wait for knicks -nets rivalry games

[Kyle Orton]

Also Carmelo Anthony has a defensive rating 3 points lower than D-Will's, so I'm not sure where the "better defender" premise comes from.

[Cry Havoc]

Deron Williams is 28 days younger than Carmelo Anthony. The fact that you mention he's "younger" exemplifies the straws you're grasping at.

:rolleyes

Deron Williams also has two less years of NBA mileage on him.

Grasping at straws is saying that the 4 PPG difference between Anthony and Deron is some kind of gargantuan quantity that sets him in another stratosphere from D-Will.

[Cry Havoc]

Also Carmelo Anthony has a defensive rating 3 points lower than D-Will's, so I'm not sure where the "better defender" premise comes from.

Watching them play?

[Kyle Orton]

:rolleyes

Deron Williams also has two less years of NBA mileage on him.

Grasping at straws is saying that the 4 PPG difference between Anthony and Deron is some kind of massive quantity.

:lol moving the goalpost with "NBA mileage".....why didn't you post that up front?

Melo has a career average 7+ PPG higher than D-Will, and he scores most of his points off isos while all of D-Wills points come off pick and rolls. You can't possibly argue D-Will is close to the scorer Melo is.

[baseline bum]

Wow, they lose out on Melo and then get a far better player instead? Still, how are they going to keep Williams? They better have something else up their sleeves; no way Williams is going to be happy passing to Lopez, Vujacic, and Johan Petro.

[DPG21920]

Anyone have the final details of all players and teams involved and who goes where?

[baseline bum]

utah got a pretty good pcakage back though.

nets no.1 pick which is gonna be a high lottery pick, favors, another pick , harris.

sitll nets came out winners.

cant wait for knicks -nets rivalry games

If those are the two 2012 picks they had been dangling earlier, I think one is top 7 protected and the other top 13 or something like that.

[Cry Havoc]

Anyone have the final details of all players and teams involved and who goes where?


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-jazzwilliamsnets022311

The Utah Jazz have agreed to deal All-Star point guard Deron Williams(notes) to the New Jersey Nets in a three-way deal that will send Derrick Favors(notes), Devin Harris(notes) and two first-round draft picks to Utah, sources tell Y! Sports.

The Nets will also receive forwards Brandan Wright(notes) and Dan Gadzuric(notes) from the Golden State Warriors and send the Warriors forward Troy Murphy(notes). New Jersey will also send $3 million to the Jazz.

Williams, the two-time All-Star point guard, had been unhappy with the Jazz and the organization believed that he would leave as a free agent in 2012. His falling-out with ex-Jazz coach Jerry Sloan played a part in the Hall of Fame coach’s decision to retire earlier in the month.

[djohn2oo8]

Anyone have the final details of all players and teams involved and who goes where?

Favors will go to Jazz with Harris, two first-round picks. Nets wlll send Troy Murphy to Golden State, and Warriors send Gadzuric to Nets.

[JamStone]

It's not a bad debate. What's harder to find? A 20/10 point guard or a 25+ point scoring wing player? Both types of players pretty tough to acquire. Which is easier to build around? Which is easier to build around for a championship?

The answer to those questions might be Deron Williams. It's tougher to find a 20/10 PG than find a 25 point scoring wing. And it's probably easier to build around the point guard because the position carries a lot of value since on most teams the PG has the ball in his hands most of the time. You compare that to Melo who is not a LeBron type who also facilitates the offense and isn't an elite defender, and I could see someone arguing that Deron Williams is the "more valuable" player to a team. But getting a 25 point scorer is nothing to scoff at either. And while Deron might be more valuable, Melo could still be the "better" or "more talented" player by his scoring abilities alone.

And the thing with 20/10 point guards is that it does not guarantee championship success. The best point guards over the last 20+ years weren't able to lead teams to championships. From Stockton to GP to Kidd to Nash to currently CP3 and D-Will, they haven't done it, while solid but not spectacular point guards like Billups, Parker, Fisher were adequate enough when added to a great big man and/or great scoring wing and/or a very balanced team.

What can shift the comparison towards Melo is if he works his ass off to become an above average defender (unlikely under D'Antoni) or he becomes an above average facilitator as more of a point forward (which is possible). But it also still comes down to what each respective team has to surround either guy. Melo does have Amare and still has Billups for at least the remainder of this year. Deron has a regressing Brook Lopez, but less impressive, he also has Outlaw, Morrow, Vujacic running the wings for him.

Personally, I would lean more towards Melo as a better player than Deron, but there is an argument to be made that Deron is more valuable because of the position he plays and the fact that he's an elite playmaker/facilitator.

[Findog]

Wow, they lose out on Melo and then get a far better player instead? Still, how are they going to keep Williams? They better have something else up their sleeves; no way Williams is going to be happy passing to Lopez, Vujacic, and Johan Petro.

They'll be able to offer him more money than any other team. They're moving to Brooklyn in a couple of years, so he'll be in the #1 media market. The new owner has deep pockets and is committed to fielding a contender.

[Kyle Orton]

I'm also wondering when the fuck D-Will became such a good defender.

[Rummpd]

A better all arounded player than Melo and cheaper in a trade what a steal for the NJN!

His career shooting percentage and TS% leave the over-hyped Melo in the dust as well.

[JamStone]

:rolleyes

Deron Williams also has two less years of NBA mileage on him.

Grasping at straws is saying that the 4 PPG difference between Anthony and Deron is some kind of gargantuan quantity that sets him in another stratosphere from D-Will.

It doesn't seem gargantuan but it's pretty significant. Year in and year out, the NBA generally has 3-5 players that average 25 points or more. There are generally something like 20 or so 20 PPG scorers, guys like Antawn Jamison and Jamal Crawford are fully capable of averaging 20 PPG. For a while, I've seen 25 PPG as somewhat of a baseline threshold for elite scorers. And when they've done it multiple times, you just know those guys are the truly elite scorers in the league. 4 PPG is significant when you look at a 20 PPG scorer versus a 16 PPG scorer. Same thing goes when the difference is between 25 PPG and 21 PPG. And as already mentioned, the difference is even bigger when you look at career scoring between the two.

[Red Hawk #21]

Avery will soon be jobless once again. He's going to end up frustrating the shit out of D-Will. Deron will be labeled a coach killer shortly after...

[Mal]

Utah tanking for Fredette ? Any details about this picks ? Nets and Lakers or Nets 2011 and Nets 2012 ?

[Gordon Hayward]

I think how a team decides to build around a star player is much more important than what position that player is.

[Cry Havoc]

It's not a bad debate. What's harder to find? A 20/10 point guard or a 25+ point scoring wing player? Both types of players pretty tough to acquire. Which is easier to build around? Which is easier to build around for a championship?

The answer to those questions might be Deron Williams. It's tougher to find a 20/10 PG than find a 25 point scoring wing. And it's probably easier to build around the point guard because the position carries a lot of value since on most teams the PG has the ball in his hands most of the time. You compare that to Melo who is not a LeBron type who also facilitates the offense and isn't an elite defender, and I could see someone arguing that Deron Williams is the "more valuable" player to a team. But getting a 25 point scorer is nothing to scoff at either. And while Deron might be more valuable, Melo could still be the "better" or "more talented" player by his scoring abilities alone.

And the thing with 20/10 point guards is that it does not guarantee championship success. The best point guards over the last 20+ years weren't able to lead teams to championships. From Stockton to GP to Kidd to Nash to currently CP3 and D-Will, they haven't done it, while solid but not spectacular point guards like Billups, Parker, Fisher were adequate enough when added to a great big man and/or great scoring wing and/or a very balanced team.

What can shift the comparison towards Melo is if he works his ass off to become an above average defender (unlikely under D'Antoni) or he becomes an above average facilitator as more of a point forward (which is possible). But it also still comes down to what each respective team has to surround either guy. Melo does have Amare and still has Billups for at least the remainder of this year. Deron has a regressing Brook Lopez, but less impressive, he also has Outlaw, Morrow, Vujacic running the wings for him.

Personally, I would lean more towards Melo as a better player than Deron, but there is an argument to be made that Deron is more valuable because of the position he plays and the fact that he's an elite playmaker/facilitator.

I think it's a case of tunnel vision to label great PGs as "unable to win titles". The last 20 years of the NBA has seen players like Michael Jordan, the Shaq/Kobe duo in LA, and Tim Duncan's Spurs march through the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that any PG from any era would have struggled mightily against those teams. And as soon as you go back to the pre-Jordan era, you have Isaiah Thomas leading the Pistons to two titles, and then in the 80s, you have Magic Johnson and the Lakers.

I think it's entirely possible that we will see an elite point guard win a title in the NBA soon, although the Nets are nowhere near favorites as they stand, obviously.

[Koolaid_Man]

Who the fuck is left in the West? Wow!!!


It's all the same for the Lakers...we don't look at who we're playing come playoff time...all we know is that we got ass to take....nothing more nothing less...

[monosylab1k]

Utah tanking for Fredette ?

:lmao I never thought of that. I should have. That guy is a Jazz front office wet dream.

[Kyle Orton]

I think it's a case of tunnel vision to label great PGs as "unable to win titles". The last 20 years of the NBA has seen players like Michael Jordan, the Shaq/Kobe duo in LA, and Tim Duncan's Spurs march through the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that any PG from any era would have struggled mightily against those teams. And as soon as you go back to the pre-Jordan era, you have Isaiah Thomas leading the Pistons to two titles, and then in the 80s, you have Magic Johnson and the Lakers.



The biggest shot of Magic Johnson's career was a game winning skyhook over two 7 footers in the most congested area of the court. The day D-Will, D-Rose or CP3 makes that kinda shot in the finals, I'll castrate myself, film it, and post the youtube link on ST. The biggest factor preventing PGs from leading their team to titles is height, a factor that wasn't a problem at all for Magic Johnson. Using him as an example only proves the theory more.

[djohn2oo8]

STEIN_LINE_HQ

RT @Lockedonsports: Deron Williams told me it was not his choice. He's stunned. Declined interview until he figures out what it all means

[Mal]

:lmao I never thought of that. I should have. That guy is a Jazz front office wet dream.

Deron is getting out of there, Utah going nowhere this year, 16th pick could be too less for Jimmer. They should acquire a lottery pick, to get Jimmer`s white mormon where he belongs.

[Cry Havoc]

It doesn't seem gargantuan but it's pretty significant. Year in and year out, the NBA generally has 3-5 players that average 25 points or more. There are generally something like 20 or so 20 PPG scorers, guys like Antawn Jamison and Jamal Crawford are fully capable of averaging 20 PPG. For a while, I've seen 25 PPG as somewhat of a baseline threshold for elite scorers. And when they've done it multiple times, you just know those guys are the truly elite scorers in the league. 4 PPG is significant when you look at a 20 PPG scorer versus a 16 PPG scorer. Same thing goes when the difference is between 25 PPG and 21 PPG. And as already mentioned, the difference is even bigger when you look at career scoring between the two.

That's a well-reasoned argument, but it also bears noting that Deron could probably score 25+ PPG if he wasn't busy dishing out 9+ assists per. He shoots almost the exact same percentages as Anthony this year. If we're going to compare histories, D-Will is drastically better from 3 point range and slightly ahead in overall FG%, so he's more efficient with the ball in his hands, even discounting assists. Anthony is a great player, but he's got too many holes in his game to be on a championship contender (I think). Deron is by no means a great defender, but he's not a ghost on defense like Melo, and that's the most important difference between the two, IMO.

[JamStone]

I think it's a case of tunnel vision to label great PGs as "unable to win titles". The last 20 years of the NBA has seen players like Michael Jordan, the Shaq/Kobe duo in LA, and Tim Duncan's Spurs march through the playoffs. I think it's fair to say that any PG from any era would have struggled mightily against those teams. And as soon as you go back to the pre-Jordan era, you have Isaiah Thomas leading the Pistons to two titles, and then in the 80s, you have Magic Johnson and the Lakers.

I think it's entirely possible that we will see an elite point guard win a title in the NBA soon, although the Nets are nowhere near favorites as they stand, obviously.

Labeling it "tunnel vision" does not make it any less true. Other than Stockton and Kidd, elite points guards haven't even been able to get to the NBA Finals, much less win it all. And Stockton had another HOF player next to him and Kidd only went to the Finals twice because of how shitty the ECF was. I'm not saying a great PG can't lead a team to a title. But history has shown us that a great big man is much more valuable for championship success, and premier scoring wings can be just as good as a great point guard to take on the perimeter and facilitating responsibilities as long as the rest of the team is in place. For as much responsibility as most point guards have, the evolution of the wing position with guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, heck Manu, the point guard position has been devalued if you can find a great scoring wing who also has playmaking abilities.

[Gordon Hayward]

STEIN_LINE_HQ

RT @Lockedonsports: Deron Williams told me it was not his choice. He's stunned. Declined interview until he figures out what it all means

It means Jerry Sloan came back and got dat ass. That's what it means.

[Findog]

STEIN_LINE_HQ

RT @Lockedonsports: Deron Williams told me it was not his choice. He's stunned. Declined interview until he figures out what it all means

I'll tell you what it means: Utah thought he was going to walk in 2012 and this was their last chance to get something for him if there's a lockout next year. NJ is the faves to resign him since he can't sign an extension until the new CBA is in place.

[JamStone]

That's a well-reasoned argument, but it also bears noting that Deron could probably score 25+ PPG if he wasn't busy dishing out 9+ assists per. He shoots almost the exact same percentages as Anthony this year. If we're going to compare histories, D-Will is drastically better from 3 point range and slightly ahead in overall FG%, so he's more efficient with the ball in his hands, even discounting assists. Anthony is a great player, but he's got too many holes in his game to be on a championship contender (I think). Deron is by no means a great defender, but he's not a ghost on defense like Melo, and that's the most important difference between the two, IMO.

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

[Kyle Orton]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams so I guess he could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots.

:lmao

[Cry Havoc]

The biggest shot of Magic Johnson's career was a game winning skyhook over two 7 footers in the most congested area of the court. The day D-Will, D-Rose or CP3 makes that kinda shot in the finals, I'll castrate myself, film it, and post the youtube link on ST. The biggest factor preventing PGs from leading their team to titles is height, a factor that wasn't a problem at all for Magic Johnson. Using him as an example only proves the theory more.

Lol ignoring Isaiah Thomas.


Labeling it "tunnel vision" does not make it any less true. Other than Stockton and Kidd, elite points guards haven't even been able to get to the NBA Finals, much less win it all. And Stockton had another HOF player next to him and Kidd only went to the Finals twice because of how shitty the ECF was. I'm not saying a great PG can't lead a team to a title. But history has shown us that a great big man is much more valuable for championship success, and premier scoring wings can be just as good as a great point guard to take on the perimeter and facilitating responsibilities as long as the rest of the team is in place. For as much responsibility as most point guards have, the evolution of the wing position with guys like Kobe, LeBron, Wade, heck Manu, the point guard position has been devalued if you can find a great scoring wing who also has playmaking abilities.

That's what strikes me as most on the outs about Melo, though. All the great wings you listed do a ton of other things to make their teams better. Even Kobe, as selfish as he is, has more than just an ability to score that makes him a great player. Melo is not nearly as well rounded as any of the other players, and he only helps his team out on one side of the ball. And for every "premier scoring wings" that have won titles, I can name several that have never even sniffed a LOB trophy. It's easy to spotlight certain guys as examples of what you need to win in the league, but the bottom line is that for the past 20 years, it's been the Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, and Pistons, and no one else, so it's a difficult argument to make when you only have 4 teams and three of them have "GoaT" level talent.

[Gordon Hayward]

I'll tell you what it means: Utah thought he was going to walk in 2012 and this was their last chance to get something for him if there's a lockout next year. NJ is the faves to resign him since he can't sign an extension until the new CBA is in place.

I still think it means Jerry came back and got dat ass.

[Kyle Orton]

One big difference that's extremely important in the modern day NBA is getting to the FT line. Scoring wings have won a lot more titles than PGs the last 20 years because of their ability to get to the line at the end of games.

[Kyle Orton]

That's what strikes me as most on the outs about Melo, though. All the great wings you listed do a ton of other things to make their teams better. Even Kobe, as selfish as he is, has more than just an ability to score that makes him a great player. Melo is not nearly as well rounded as any of the other players, and he only helps his team out on one side of the ball. And for every "premier scoring wings" that have won titles, I can name several that have never even sniffed a LOB trophy. It's easy to spotlight certain guys as examples of what you need to win in the league, but the bottom line is that for the past 20 years, it's been the Lakers, Bulls, Spurs, and Pistons, and no one else, so it's a difficult argument to make when you only have 4 teams and three of them have "GoaT" level talent.

The last 20 years the Celtics, Heat and Rockets have won just as many or more titles than Detroit so idk why you left them off.]

So what's you're argument with some premier scoring wings who haven't sniffed titles. Here's what you're saying: the past 20 years, some premier scoring wings have won titles, no premier passing PGs have won titles.

[JamStone]

I think Melo is actually an underrated passer. He's always had ball dominant guards playing next to him, Miller, Iverson, Billups. They weren't necessarily selfish besides Iverson, but they did dominate the ball and were the main facilitators. Melo hasn't really ever been asked to run an offense before. He's been asked to score. I think if D'Antoni puts the ball in Melo's hands more, we will see him as much more of a playmaker than people give him credit for.

[Red Hawk #21]

I think Melo is actually an underrated passer. He's always had ball dominant guards playing next to him, Miller, Iverson, Billups. They weren't necessarily selfish besides Iverson, but they did dominate the ball and were the main facilitators. Melo hasn't really ever been asked to run an offense before. He's been asked to score. I think if D'Antoni puts the ball in Melo's hands more, we will see him as much more of a playmaker than people give him credit for.

Great point tbh.

[Cry Havoc]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots much better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

So a point guard who averages 21 and 9 is not capable of scoring more? Of course he's going to continue passing if it gets his team the most high % shot, that's what makes a PG so valuable. And there is a huge difference between a 14 ppg player and a 21 and 9 player. Come on, Jamstone, you don't need to resort to snarky comments to bolster your argument. Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

[Kyle Orton]

Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

2011 Jazz: 99.4 PPG (14th highest scoring team)

2010 Jazz: 104. PPG (4th highest scoring team)

2009 Jazz: 103.6 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

2008 Jazz: 106.2 PPG (5th highest scoring team)

2007 Jazz: 101.5 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

Again, how often do you watch the Jazz?

[djohn2oo8]

One trusted source last week told me Deron was in "a league of his own" as far as creating problems for coaches, within the team.

http://twitter.com/sluhm

[Killakobe81]

Now that that ballhog Devin Harris is out of the way and the Nets now have a real point guard, the Machine can really get his 20-30 points anytime he wants to.

LOL ...Speaking of ex-Lakers BTW, how much is Jordan Farmar hating life now? Sure, he hadnt beat out Harris either but his mins. will be even more scarce now ...

If dude could of gotten it together and ran the offense the PG job was his in Lakerland ... but his ego and got in the way ...

[LnGrrrR]

Wtf?!?!

I thought this was a stupid troll thread... this shit is real?

[JamStone]

So a point guard who averages 21 and 9 is not capable of scoring more? Of course he's going to continue passing if it gets his team the most high % shot, that's what makes a PG so valuable. And there is a huge difference between a 14 ppg player and a 21 and 9 player. Come on, Jamstone, you don't need to resort to snarky comments to bolster your argument. Denver has also perennially been one of the highest scoring teams in the league, while Utah has always been one of the lowest, which further reduces the difference between the two.

You're the one who compared shooting percentages. If you're going to use shooting percentages as part of the basis for your argument that Deron could average 25 PPG, then I'm going to use Prince as an example to refute it. Deron is not really a 21 PPG scorer. This is the first season averaging over 20 PPG. He's more of a 18-19 point scorer. He's scored more this season because of the loss of Boozer. And what has that gotten him? Traded to the Nets. If Deron has solid players around him, he's best served to be more of a 18-19 PPG scorer and 10 APG PG, not a 25 PPG scorer. And I'm not sure where you've been, but over the past few seasons before this season, Utah has been one of the faster teams in the league, been top 10 in terms of pace and scoring.

[Kyle Orton]

2011 Jazz: 99.4 PPG (14th highest scoring team)

2010 Jazz: 104. PPG (4th highest scoring team)

2009 Jazz: 103.6 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

2008 Jazz: 106.2 PPG (5th highest scoring team)

2007 Jazz: 101.5 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

Again, how often do you watch the Jazz?

Btw it's funny that the one season D-Will showcases his "ability to score more" is the first season Utah is averaging less than 100 PPG. Odd coincidence tbh.

[LnGrrrR]

Larry Bird

Larry Bird could pass.

[Killakobe81]

Tayshaun Prince shoots nearly identical shooting percentages as Deron Williams and even shoots better from three point range, so I guess Prince could score 25+ PPG too if he took more shots. But he hasn't. Never has. Never has come close. Being "capable" is not the same thing as actually doing. Deron might be capable, but until he actually does it, I wouldn't just assume he'd be able to. Once he takes more shots and passes less, defenses would change their approach defending him. Part of his ability to score efficiently for a guard is his passing. If he scores more, his efficiency likely drops. And that doesn't even go into whether him scoring more helps his team win or not.

You make a lot of sense Jam, but I think if the game is more uptempo he (Dwill) can score more while increasing his %'s ... though his TO's may go up. Look what D'antoni's system has done for mediocre to good shooters. Dwll is not a great shooter like Nash but a good one. Not sure how uptempo avery will be though but he did give kidd that kind of freedom.

LOL Dont think you can compare Prince who was never a volume shooter/scorer in college (and even HS to some extent)to Dwilliams ...and yes Jam your post did smack of beind a smartass ...but I appreciate caustic humor.

[Gordon Hayward]

One trusted source last week told me Deron was in "a league of his own" as far as creating problems for coaches, within the team.

http://twitter.com/sluhm

I'm sure Deron is going to love being on a losing team with Avery riding him along the way.

[LnGrrrR]

What's funny is that I think the NY Knicks would've been better off if they had traded for DWill instead of Carmelo.

[lefty]

Wtf?!?!

I thought this was a stupid troll thread... this shit is real?
:lol

[Killakobe81]

Melo: Better scorer, rebounder.

DWill: Better at basically everything else. :lol

Do you disagree? Williams is (was) an MVP candidate, plays better D, and makes his teammates MUCH better when he's on the floor. He carried a pretty bad Utah team and had them at the 5th seed in a pretty tough West before the wheels fell off. When's the last time Melo put a team on his back for any length of time?

Im as big a Dwill fan as any on here but dude has not been an MVP candidate since the middle of December ...since then rose has been way better and a case can be made for Nash, Westbrook and Paul. I expect to see greatness for him if he gets teh right pieces and or team ...but curious to see how this shakes out ...

Do I like Dwill better than Melo ...for my team? yes. But does he have more upside than melo? Doubtful.

[djohn2oo8]

**BREAKING NEWS** As i reported about 1HR ago > Deron Williams telling friends HE WILL NEVER SIGN EXTENSION WITH NETS! #Unhappy with trade

http://twitter.com/incarceratedbob/status/40462732872388608

[Gordon Hayward]

**BREAKING NEWS** As i reported about 1HR ago > Deron Williams telling friends HE WILL NEVER SIGN EXTENSION WITH NETS! #Unhappy with trade

http://twitter.com/incarceratedbob/status/40462732872388608

At least Deron has a good attitude about this whole thing.

[Kyle Orton]

I see Melo as very similar to Pierce. A knucklehead in his 20's, but as he entered his 30s he figured out what it means to play defense, be a leader, and facilitate the perimeter offense. It's gonna take the Knicks sometime. Amare is nearly "there" completely from a mental standpoint and the jury is still out on Melo's attitude once he gets an extension. Even once they both fully mature, they still need a center, new coach and possibly a true 3rd wheel. The Knicks have laid a great foundation for contending in the future and are in much better shape than the Nets, but might still be 2-3 years away.

[Killakobe81]

LOL if true ...he wont sign extension ...no way NJ allows him to Knicks ...Lakers Mavs or whomever else will have a chance to get him.

[Kyle Orton]

LOL if true ...he wont sign extension ...no way NJ allows him to Knicks ...Lakers Mavs or whomever else will have a chance to get him.

If he pulls a Melo and says he'll only extend with the Knicks, the Nets might not have much of a choice.

[HarlemHeat37]

Meh, I don't really see how a concrete argument can be made on either side, they're very close in ability..

They're both average defenders(that's being generous in Anthony's case, and being generous in regards to Williams' ability this year, where his D has been mediocre)..Anthony is a solid rebounder for his position, Williams is one of the best passers in the NBA..Anthony is an elite scorer, Williams makes his teammates better on an elite level..

Both guys have maxed out in the WCF, where neither guy was the clear-cut leader of the team(Anthony was the best player on his team, but Billups got a lot of credit..Boozer was the best player on that Jazz team, but Williams was probably the leader)..

I don't really see much separation..

In regards to style of play translating to titles, PGs as #1s haven't been too successful in recent NBA history, but a player like Carmelo has never led a team to a title as a #1 either(Kobe, Jordan and Bird were all elite passers, and the former 2 being good defenders)..Pierce is the closest comparison, but he won't find a KG..

It's a toss-up..

[JamStone]

There are plenty of players in the NBA who could average 25 PPG if they were given the minutes, touches, and shot opportunities. Could Deron average 25 PPG if he shot more? Absolutely. My point was more so whether he do it without it being a detriment to the team. Do you want guys like Reggie Williams or Marcus Thornton averaging 25 PPG? If given the shots, I think they could too. But would it be good for their teams? Deron Williams can average 25 PPG if he took the shots. Would it help or hurt his team if he had to take that many shots per game?

And again, Utah has actually played at a very fast pace for a while now. I don't know why people think they're a slow halfcourt team. They haven't been that in a long time.

[Killakobe81]

You're the one who compared shooting percentages. If you're going to use shooting percentages as part of the basis for your argument that Deron could average 25 PPG, then I'm going to use Prince as an example to refute it. Deron is not really a 21 PPG scorer. This is the first season averaging over 20 PPG. He's more of a 18-19 point scorer. He's scored more this season because of the loss of Boozer. And what has that gotten him? Traded to the Nets. If Deron has solid players around him, he's best served to be more of a 18-19 PPG scorer and 10 APG PG, not a 25 PPG scorer. And I'm not sure where you've been, but over the past few seasons before this season, Utah has been one of the faster teams in the league, been top 10 in terms of pace and scoring.

I don't dispute this ...most teams aren't doing well when the PG has to score THAT much however it does work in chicago ...and to a lesser degree (scoring wise) with Isiah ...

I dont know if he is as good as those guys ... LOL

[Gordon Hayward]

If he pulls a Melo and says he'll only extend with the Knicks, the Nets might not have much of a choice.

The new CBA is probably going to deal with that.

[Mal]

What with this New York.... Now everybody wants to play for Knicks and their dumb coach..

[djohn2oo8]

I suspect The Prokhorov's plan to woo Deron Williams involves his wealth, the move to Brooklyn, and many, many whores

http://twitter.com/bruce_arthur

:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

NBA will need to turn to contraction soon, tbh..it's a good thing from a basketball perspective anyways, too many useless teams..with Lebron's Donation setting a new precedent for FAs going to "Super teams", it's going to make the NBA more entertaining, but it's also going to force the league to make some decisions, regarding certain small market teams..

[lefty]

Lol Raja. Should've signed with the Champs, you cock sucker.
Timvp has a point

[JamStone]

I think Paul Pierce could be a good comparison for Melo. Similar in talent and style of play. But obviously, it would take a lot from Melo to develop and improve the other aspects of his game, like being more unselfish, creating scoring opportunities for teammates, and becoming a better defender, at least team defender (even in a D'Antoni system), to help the Knicks become at least adequate defensive and at least put up a fight to make teams work a little to score.

The Knicks aren't going to get a KG type of emotional leader on defense. But if they can find a guy to anchor the middle in the next couple seasons, it would be a start. He's not great or smart, but perhaps Samuel Dalembert could be had at a relatively affordable price this summer. Tyson Chandler would be ideal, but I think Cuban does what he can to keep him and even if he can't, Tyson is probably out of the Knicks' price range.

[picc84]

It's not a bad debate. What's harder to find? A 20/10 point guard or a 25+ point scoring wing player? Both types of players pretty tough to acquire. Which is easier to build around? Which is easier to build around for a championship?

The answer to those questions might be Deron Williams. It's tougher to find a 20/10 PG than find a 25 point scoring wing. And it's probably easier to build around the point guard because the position carries a lot of value since on most teams the PG has the ball in his hands most of the time. You compare that to Melo who is not a LeBron type who also facilitates the offense and isn't an elite defender, and I could see someone arguing that Deron Williams is the "more valuable" player to a team. But getting a 25 point scorer is nothing to scoff at either. And while Deron might be more valuable, Melo could still be the "better" or "more talented" player by his scoring abilities alone.

And the thing with 20/10 point guards is that it does not guarantee championship success. The best point guards over the last 20+ years weren't able to lead teams to championships. From Stockton to GP to Kidd to Nash to currently CP3 and D-Will, they haven't done it, while solid but not spectacular point guards like Billups, Parker, Fisher were adequate enough when added to a great big man and/or great scoring wing and/or a very balanced team.

What can shift the comparison towards Melo is if he works his ass off to become an above average defender (unlikely under D'Antoni) or he becomes an above average facilitator as more of a point forward (which is possible). But it also still comes down to what each respective team has to surround either guy. Melo does have Amare and still has Billups for at least the remainder of this year. Deron has a regressing Brook Lopez, but less impressive, he also has Outlaw, Morrow, Vujacic running the wings for him.

Personally, I would lean more towards Melo as a better player than Deron, but there is an argument to be made that Deron is more valuable because of the position he plays and the fact that he's an elite playmaker/facilitator.

I don't think there's any debate at all. Deron is a better, more dominant player and always has been. Not by a lot, but still. And Deron destroyed him last year w/o homecourt, and with two starters injured.

Melo is a better passer than he's given credit for, but he doesn't utilize the talent nearly as much as he should.

The solace Knicks fans can take from this is that there's no way in hell Deron is resigning in shitty New Jersey, and he won't even have to move if the knicks court him.

[Muser]

Melo > Williams

Damn, if Williams doesn't sign an extension the Nets just fucked themselves over.

[Mugen]

Lol Raja. Should've signed with the Champs, you cock sucker.

true, he coulda been on a team that gets knocked out in the 2nd round instead of missing the playoffs.

[HarlemHeat37]

I think Paul Pierce could be a good comparison for Melo. Similar in talent and style of play. But obviously, it would take a lot from Melo to develop and improve the other aspects of his game, like being more unselfish, creating scoring opportunities for teammates, and becoming a better defender, at least team defender (even in a D'Antoni system), to help the Knicks become at least adequate defensive and at least put up a fight to make teams work a little to score.

To be fair, and this is something people forget, but Paul Pierce had already been on a top 5 defensive team, prior to KG, and another top 10 defensive team, during the Celtics' Pierce-Walker runs in the East..Pierce had the #1 defensive rating and the #1 on/off +/- on both of those teams, meaning an argument could easily be made, that he was the most impactful defender on those Celtics teams..

Pierce was never an elite, or even standout defender, at any time during his career, but he's always bought in to the team defense aspect of basketball IMO..

Carmelo has been on 1 or 2 good defensive teams, but his impact on D was never significant, he was always in the middle of the pack in team importance, defensively..I don't think he has the basketball IQ to be a notable defender, but we'll see..


The Knicks aren't going to get a KG type of emotional leader on defense. But if they can find a guy to anchor the middle in the next couple seasons, it would be a start. He's not great or smart, but perhaps Samuel Dalembert could be had at a relatively affordable price this summer. Tyson Chandler would be ideal, but I think Cuban does what he can to keep him and even if he can't, Tyson is probably out of the Knicks' price range.

Dalembert will probably join the Heat next year, IMO..

Knicks are going to need 3 quality defenders around Anthony and Stoudemire, most importantly, a big C that can defend the post, which is very difficult to find..

I don't really see how they can become a good defensive team, especially with D'Antoni as coach..

[MavFan6488]

Melo > Williams

Damn, if Williams doesn't sign an extension the Nets just fucked themselves over.
he won't sign an extension...he will become a free agent and end up as a knick. from new jersey, you can almost see the MSG..he will probably skip all practices and games with the nets now and watch the knicks courtside in protest of the trade..

[JamStone]

I don't think there's any debate at all. Deron is a better, more dominant player and always has been. Not by a lot, but still. And Deron destroyed him last year w/o homecourt, and with two starters injured.


Deron played well in a couple games, but I think Boozer was a bigger reason why the Nuggets lost to the Jazz. And Carmelo averaged 30 PPG in that series. I think Carmelo's horrible performance in the series clinching game 6 has your memory skewed. In fact, two of Deron's three best games in that series were in losses.

Overall, Deron did play well against the Nuggets. But to put it on Carmelo who put up 31 and 9 in that series is a bit much. He had a poor shooting performance in the series clincher but Deron did not "destroy" Carmelo.

[Muser]

Knicks are going to need 3 quality defenders around Anthony and Stoudemire, most importantly, a big C that can defend the post, which is very difficult to find..

I don't really see how they can become a good defensive team, especially with D'Antoni as coach..

Didn't Dwight say he would like to go to the Knicks?

[nkdlunch]

damn Nets russian owner took a dump on Knicks front office.

:lol Isiah

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

2011 Jazz: 99.4 PPG (14th highest scoring team)

2010 Jazz: 104. PPG (4th highest scoring team)

2009 Jazz: 103.6 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

2008 Jazz: 106.2 PPG (5th highest scoring team)

2007 Jazz: 101.5 PPG (7th highest scoring team)

Again, how often do you watch the Jazz?

tbh it's pretty funny how after this post Cry Havoc disappeared from this thread faster than rails of cocaine off thispego's coffee table.

[MavFan6488]

Didn't Dwight say he would like to go to the Knicks?
dwight - amare - melo - [] - d-will

imagine :wow

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't really see how Howard would end up in NY..he'll probably be a Laker..

[InRareForm]

someone photoshop Deron with Pauly D, Situation, and Vinny

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

damn Nets russian owner took a dump on Knicks front office.

:lol Isiah

Deron is pissed he has to play in New Jersey. He's opting out. Worst case scenario, NY "settles" for Chris Paul.

[Cry Havoc]

tbh it's pretty funny how after this post Cry Havoc disappeared from this thread faster than rails of cocaine off thispego's coffee table.

Still here. Just working. I've never had a problem admitting I'm wrong before, either.

[picc84]

Deron played well in a couple games, but I think Boozer was a bigger reason why the Nuggets lost to the Jazz. And Carmelo averaged 30 PPG in that series. I think Carmelo's horrible performance in the series clinching game 6 has your memory skewed. In fact, two of Deron's three best games in that series were in losses.

Overall, Deron did play well against the Nuggets. But to put it on Carmelo who put up 31 and 9 in that series is a bit much. He had a poor shooting performance in the series clincher but Deron did not "destroy" Carmelo.

I don't put the loss on Melo. I thought he was the shining beacon for Denver in that series.

But Deron outplayed him thoroughly IMO. Especially in the clutch/4th quarter. Part of the reason Boozer was so effective was because Deron was getting him the ball in the right spots and finding him under the rim, like a master surgeon. In fact, thats what Deron was in that series. A surgeon. He made all of his teammates better and scored when he needed to. His brilliance stole homecourt advantage and helped to keep it. Easily did more for the injured Jazz team than Melo did for the Nuggets.

Whether you think Deron destroyed him/them or not, I don't see how its a tough debate as to who is better. Melo is a great player but Deron is a dominating one.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't put the loss on Melo. I thought he was the shining beacon for Denver in that series.

But Deron outplayed him thoroughly IMO. Especially in the clutch/4th quarter. Part of the reason Boozer was so effective was because Deron was getting him the ball in the right spots and finding him under the rim, like a master surgeon. In fact, thats what Deron was in that series. A surgeon. He made all of his teammates better and scored when he needed to. His brilliance stole homecourt advantage and helped to keep it. Easily did more for the injured Jazz team than Melo did for the Nuggets.

Whether you think Deron destroyed him/them or not, I don't see how its a tough debate as to who is better. Melo is a great player but Deron is a dominating one.

I don't really see how you can call Deron "dominant", but put Carmelo at an entirely different level of inferiority..I'm not a fan of Anthony at all, but I can't see how you can make that argument..Deron might be better, but they're certainly on the same level..

[JamStone]

To be fair, and this is something people forget, but Paul Pierce had already been on a top 5 defensive team, prior to KG, and another top 10 defensive team, during the Celtics' Pierce-Walker runs in the East..Pierce had the #1 defensive rating and the #1 on/off +/- on both of those teams, meaning an argument could easily be made, that he was the most impactful defender on those Celtics teams..

Pierce was never an elite, or even standout defender, at any time during his career, but he's always bought in to the team defense aspect of basketball IMO..

Carmelo has been on 1 or 2 good defensive teams, but his impact on D was never significant, he was always in the middle of the pack in team importance, defensively..I don't think he has the basketball IQ to be a notable defender, but we'll see..

Fair. Pierce has been solid defensively for much of his career. And as you suggest, Pierce has actually put forth the effort, which is sometimes the biggest thing. Melo has the physical ability (size, strength, athleticism) at his position to be a good defender. And for him, all it would take for him to be a good "individual" defender is consistent effort. His basketball IQ is more important in regards to him becoming a better "team" defender. And you're right, we'll have to see if he can do that, especially, as you astutely point out below, under D'Antoni.




Dalembert will probably join the Heat next year, IMO..

Lol.



Knicks are going to need 3 quality defenders around Anthony and Stoudemire, most importantly, a big C that can defend the post, which is very difficult to find..

I don't really see how they can become a good defensive team, especially with D'Antoni as coach..

I don't know what the Knicks have yet in Fields, from a defensive point of view. He has come in as a surprise rookie, but I think he's been more notable for his ability to score efficiently and doing the little things to help the Knicks. But that doesn't necessarily mean he's been good defensively.

The Knicks do need a big who can run the floor and just be somewhat of a presence defensively without being a huge detriment to what they want to do offensively. Someone like Rasheed Wallace would have been perfect for that team. I don't know if there's a young guy out there available for the Knicks. But if they could get a Dalembert type and get one other versatile perimeter defender, say someone like a Sefolosha (not him specifically but someone like him), then they'd be well on their way to being at least solid defensively, especially for a D'Antoni team.

[Gordon Hayward]

Still here. Just working. I've never had a problem admitting I'm wrong before, either.

Ok. You can go ahead and admit you're wrong now.

[picc84]

I don't really see how you can call Deron "dominant", but put Carmelo at an entirely different level of inferiority..I'm not a fan of Anthony at all, but I can't see how you can make that argument..Deron might be better, but they're certainly on the same level..

I think Deron controls the game from more angles. When Melo is on offensively, he can put up scoring numbers in bunches and destroy teams that way. But Deron can do it scoring-wise while carving the defense with his passing as well. He's not as reliant on his jumper to be "on" as Melo is, as even though Melo is a good passer, he ignores the ability enough that he's pretty close to a one-dimensional scorer type.

I don't think Deron is a LOT better but the difference is clear.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

Ok. You can go ahead and admit you're wrong now.

lol now might be the time when Cry Havoc has some more "work" to do.

[JamStone]

I don't put the loss on Melo. I thought he was the shining beacon for Denver in that series.

But Deron outplayed him thoroughly IMO. Especially in the clutch/4th quarter. Part of the reason Boozer was so effective was because Deron was getting him the ball in the right spots and finding him under the rim, like a master surgeon. In fact, thats what Deron was in that series. A surgeon. He made all of his teammates better and scored when he needed to. His brilliance stole homecourt advantage and helped to keep it. Easily did more for the injured Jazz team than Melo did for the Nuggets.

Whether you think Deron destroyed him/them or not, I don't see how its a tough debate as to who is better. Melo is a great player but Deron is a dominating one.

Tbh, I probably wouldn't have responded if you had said "Deron destroyed them" instead of saying he "destroyed him (as in Carmelo)." Your first post did suggest you put the series loss on Melo. And I do think you're placing a lot of that opinion on game 6 instead of looking at what Melo did pretty much the entire series before game 6.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone who thinks Deron Williams is better than Carmelo, as I pointed out in earlier posts that I think they're comparable and I can easily wee someone arguing why Deron is more valuable to his team because of the position he plays and how hard it is to find 20/10 caliber point guards.

But I certainly would argue against someone claiming it's not a tough debate at all. Melo is a top 5 scorer in the league and is probably the most versatile scorer in the league. And as the best player on his team, he's led that team as far as Deron has led his, to a conference finals appearance. If you like Deron better, I can't call it. but it's very much a debatable topic.

[picc84]

Fair enough.

[JamStone]

I think Deron controls the game from more angles. When Melo is on offensively, he can put up scoring numbers in bunches and destroy teams that way. But Deron can do it scoring-wise while carving the defense with his passing as well. He's not as reliant on his jumper to be "on" as Melo is, as even though Melo is a good passer, he ignores the ability enough that he's pretty close to a one-dimensional scorer type.

I don't think Deron is a LOT better but the difference is clear.

Here's a similar comparison.

Would you take Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash?

[Cry Havoc]

Tbh, I probably wouldn't have responded if you had said "Deron destroyed them" instead of saying he "destroyed him (as in Carmelo)." Your first post did suggest you put the series loss on Melo. And I do think you're placing a lot of that opinion on game 6 instead of looking at what Melo did pretty much the entire series before game 6.

I wouldn't begrudge anyone who thinks Deron Williams is better than Carmelo, as I pointed out in earlier posts that I think they're comparable and I can easily wee someone arguing why Deron is more valuable to his team because of the position he plays and how hard it is to find 20/10 caliber point guards.

But I certainly would argue against someone claiming it's not a tough debate at all. Melo is a top 5 scorer in the league and is probably the most versatile scorer in the league. And as the best player on his team, he's led that team as far as Deron has led his, to a conference finals appearance. If you like Deron better, I can't call it. but it's very much a debatable topic.

Good post. I never meant to imply that Deron is drastically better than Melo, they're both obviously top tier players in the league. Elite scorers and elite PGs are extremely valuable to their teams, obviously. I just don't see the intensity from Melo on the defensive side of things that's going to catapult him into the next echelon of greatness. I don't think he really cares enough about defense to become a legitimate stopper, or even an above average player.

[djohn2oo8]

Nets pick going to utah is unprotected. And LOL at D-Will learning that he had been traded only through watching sportscenter

[Cry Havoc]

Here's a similar comparison.

Would you take Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash?

Not sure that's a fair comparison. Dirk is clearly better on defense than Nash, who's been a sieve his entire career. Dirk also presents mismatch problems, while Nash doesn't. D-Will and Melo are both problems for the other team because they are larger than average for their position.

[Cry Havoc]

Nets pick going to utah is unprotected. And LOL at D-Will learning that he had been traded only through watching sportscenter

Wow, seriously?

[Warlord23]

Upon further review this is a high-risk, high-reward type move by Prokhorov. He has a year and a half to prove to Deron that the Nets are close to contending. Will he try and lure another big name (maybe Dwight Howard) to Brooklyn? If the new CBA gives him some leverage (franchise tag etc) he could well make a play at a big name and get Deron's buy-in to stay with the Nets.

The other thought that struck me was whether the Knicks are kicking themselves for not going after Deron. A D'Antoni-coached Deron/Amare pick-and-roll would have been something to behold.

[picc84]

Here's a similar comparison.

Would you take Dirk Nowitzki or Steve Nash?

Nash without a moments hesitation.

[djohn2oo8]

Wow, seriously?

Teammates said Nets' Williams had no idea he'd been traded by Jazz. Learned about it via ESPN's "SportsCenter
http://twitter.com/tribjazz

For those of you asking, Nets pick is unprotected this year. Jazz will, for sure, get it.
http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider

Jazz fans already clamoring for Utah to take BYU's Jimmer Fredette in Draft to replace DWill ...

[JamStone]

Good post. I never meant to imply that Deron is drastically better than Melo, they're both obviously top tier players in the league. Elite scorers and elite PGs are extremely valuable to their teams, obviously. I just don't see the intensity from Melo on the defensive side of things that's going to catapult him into the next echelon of greatness. I don't think he really cares enough about defense to become a legitimate stopper, or even an above average player.

Deron's defense isn't bad, but it's not at all notable enough to be the difference between him and Melo.

[JamStone]

Nash without a moments hesitation.

That question is actually easier for me than Deron/Melo.

Ok then I can see why you choose Deron.

For me, I take Dirk over Nash 10 times out of 10 times.

And I take Melo over Deron probably 7 times out of 10 times.

[picc84]

Melo is underrated on defense as well. When motivated he's pretty good, actually. But he's only motivated against Lebron/Kobe/etc.

Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing.

[picc84]

Ok then I can see why you choose Deron.

For me, I take Dirk over Nash 10 times out of 10 times.


Thats pretty crazy.

[Gordon Hayward]

Teammates said Nets' Williams had no idea he'd been traded by Jazz. Learned about it via ESPN's "SportsCenter
http://twitter.com/tribjazz

For those of you asking, Nets pick is unprotected this year. Jazz will, for sure, get it.
http://twitter.com/chadfordinsider

Jazz fans already clamoring for Utah to take BYU's Jimmer Fredette in Draft to replace DWill ...

http://www.ksl.com/emedia//usersubmittedpics/3/323/32379.jpg?filter=ksl/pgallery

[JamStone]

Not sure that's a fair comparison. Dirk is clearly better on defense than Nash, who's been a sieve his entire career. Dirk also presents mismatch problems, while Nash doesn't. D-Will and Melo are both problems for the other team because they are larger than average for their position.

Re-read picc84's post that I was responding to. Based on what he wrote to distinguish between Melo and Deron, I think Dirk/Nash is an extremely relevant and fair comparison. And obviously based on him choosing Nash over Dirk, it's very much to the point at issue.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

Jazz fans already clamoring for Utah to take BYU's Jimmer Fredette in Draft to replace DWill ...

Oh really, they want the white Mormon kid? Shocker!

[JamStone]

Thats pretty crazy.

I feel similar about you saying you take Nash easily over Dirk.

[Cuppycake Gumdrop]

Thats pretty crazy.

why

[picc84]

Upon further review this is a high-risk, high-reward type move by Prokhorov. He has a year and a half to prove to Deron that the Nets are close to contending. Will he try and lure another big name (maybe Dwight Howard) to Brooklyn? If the new CBA gives him some leverage (franchise tag etc) he could well make a play at a big name and get Deron's buy-in to stay with the Nets.

The other thought that struck me was whether the Knicks are kicking themselves for not going after Deron. A D'Antoni-coached Deron/Amare pick-and-roll would have been something to behold.

Well, the Nets are currently on pace for what, 18 wins? Say Deron adds an extra 12. Now they're at 30 wins, and still not a playoff team because his best wing options are Sasha Vujacic and Jordan Farmar, two players he routinely lubed up to anally violate when they were on the Lakers, and his best big is Brook Lopez, who i'm confident I could rob if I met him on the street despite being 10 inches shorter than him.

Unless they do get Dwight, the Nets aren't doing anything in the foreseeable future. And Deron, as someone who has been vocal in complaining about the Jazz not being contenders, is now on a much worse team in a now better conference.

He's already friends with Melo and Amare. He'll already be living in New York. And his next contract will be under the new CBA no matter what. So what incentive does he have to stay with the Nets and not bolt?

He's gone. And he's probably a Knick.

[picc84]

I feel similar about you saying you take Nash easily over Dirk.

haha touche

[Gordon Hayward]

http://www.deseretnews.com/photos/midres/3576492.jpg

[JamStone]

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jimmerfredette.jpg

[benefactor]

This is the Jazz giving Williams the finger. Nothing more.

[Mugen]

Jerry Sloan: "WTF?"

[Warlord23]

Well, the Nets are currently on pace for what, 18 wins? Say Deron adds an extra 12. Now they're at 30 wins, and still not a playoff team because his best wing options are Sasha Vujacic and Jordan Farmar, two players he routinely lubed up to anally violate when they were on the Lakers, and his best big is Brook Lopez, who i'm confident I could rob if I met him on the street despite being 10 inches shorter than him.

Unless they do get Dwight, the Nets aren't doing anything in the foreseeable future. And Deron, as someone who has been vocal in complaining about the Jazz not being contenders, is now on a much worse team in a now better conference.

He's already friends with Melo and Amare. He'll already be living in New York. And his next contract will be under the new CBA no matter what. So what incentive does he have to stay with the Nets and not bolt?

He's gone. And he's probably a Knick.

True, but then any big name signing would be risky for the Nets as they would be liable to bolt - which is why I said it's high risk. If they can package Brook Lopez + assets for Dwight in 2012 it would be worth it. At any rate they will try and trade D-Will to any team not named NYK if this doesn't work out. IMO the Knicks will pursue Chris Paul now.

[Findog]

Nash without a moments hesitation.

Dirk without a moments hesitation. Although it would have been interesting to see Nash on a team like Orlando, with a guy like Howard to protect the paint.

[Jt.ONE]

jay-z got himself a new best friend

[Gordon Hayward]

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0bYk0uW2So5w8/610x.jpg

[VBM]

Way late on this (busy day at work), but wow. All it took was Melo moving for the NBA shakeup to occur.

http://nathanhgray.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dominos.jpg

[Jt.ONE]

This is the Jazz giving Williams the finger. Nothing more.

this

[picc84]

True, but then any big name signing would be risky for the Nets as they would be liable to bolt - which is why I said it's high risk. If they can package Brook Lopez + assets for Dwight in 2012 it would be worth it. At any rate they will try and trade D-Will to any team not named NYK if this doesn't work out. IMO the Knicks will pursue Chris Paul now.

They can trade him if he says he won't extend, but that still leaves them high and dry because they'll be selling him for chump change, assuming he doesn't promise the next team he'll extend with them either.

The only way NJ comes out clean is if he extends. Which he probably won't.

Meanwhile, IMO the Knicks would be better served going after Deron than CP, because while CP is better, Deron is probably 90% of what you get from him, and unlike CP he doesn't have alarming injury concerns.

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jimmerfredette.jpg

We shat all over this bitch a few weeks ago. Then again, pretty much everyone else in conference has shat all over us.

[Jt.ONE]

williams has 2 years left on his contract iirc, maybe he'll end up somewhere else by then?

[picc84]

Dirk without a moments hesitation. Although it would have been interesting to see Nash on a team like Orlando, with a guy like Howard to protect the paint.

I agree.

But it also would have been interesting to see Dirk on a team like Orlando, with a guy like Howard to protect the paint.

[ElNono]

DWill sent straight from All Star Game to the tree of woe...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3544/3389709116_1e23d41316.jpg

[Jt.ONE]

^ he'll get in for the east at the 1 still imo

*edit
get in, not start

[Kyle Orton]

To be fair, and this is something people forget, but Paul Pierce had already been on a top 5 defensive team, prior to KG, and another top 10 defensive team, during the Celtics' Pierce-Walker runs in the East..Pierce had the #1 defensive rating and the #1 on/off +/- on both of those teams, meaning an argument could easily be made, that he was the most impactful defender on those Celtics teams..

Pierce was never an elite, or even standout defender, at any time during his career, but he's always bought in to the team defense aspect of basketball IMO..

Carmelo has been on 1 or 2 good defensive teams, but his impact on D was never significant, he was always in the middle of the pack in team importance, defensively..I don't think he has the basketball IQ to be a notable defender, but we'll see..
I honestly never knew Pierce had those good defensive seasons early on in his career so that def. raises a few questions about my Pierce/Melo comparison. It's far from a perfect comparison as Melo has never done something as stupid as put himself in a position to get stabbed while Pierce has never had a huge problem being fat and out of shape, I just compared them because the maturation Pierce went through late in his career is something Melo needs to go through.



Dalembert will probably join the Heat next year, IMO..

Knicks are going to need 3 quality defenders around Anthony and Stoudemire, most importantly, a big C that can defend the post, which is very difficult to find..

I don't really see how they can become a good defensive team, especially with D'Antoni as coach..

I agree with this except for the part about a big body to defend the post being hard to find. Guys like Perkins and Dalembert can be had with MLE level deals or lower every year. The problem is, Amare can't anchor a team's weakside help D and p/r D the way KG can, so the center they get needs to be able to defend the post AND be a decent help defender (someone like Gortat) which is hard to find.

The Knicks are going to have problems as long as D'antoni is coach. I said it over the summer to all the people who claimed Nash was what Amare would miss about Phoenix. He's clearly good enough offensively to produce with a lesser PG, but there are only so many coaches out there good enough to get him to go hard defending and rebounding. Gentry was one of those few. D'antoni has also ruined the progress he made in the post on offense last year by going with a small lineup and turning him into a face-up jump shooter who's only offense is to take advantage of less athletic centers.

If NY got a better defensive coach tho, NY could easily become a good defensive team. Amare and Melo both have the physical tools to be elite defenders. Fields is already a good defender. Billups' defense is overrated but he's an above average defender who communicates well on that end. The Suns were becoming a good defensive team last year before they decided to blow it up in the off season, so the Knicks can easily become one.

[Kyle Orton]

Does anyone remember last year when picc84 spent the entire season talking shit about how crappy Fisher was, how the Lakers wouldn't be able to win a title with such a weak link at PG, and how stupid it was to not trade him at the deadline out of sheer loyalty..........then he disappears and never eats CROW after Fisher played huge for them in the playoffs :lmao

lol people who grossly overrate how important volume assist PGs are

[redzero]

I'd rather be wrong about that and watch my team win a championship than be right and watch my team lose. I think he got over it.

[Kyle Orton]

Obviously, but I'd also be happy to eat CROW and take back what I said.

[picc84]

Does anyone remember last year when picc84 spent the entire season talking shit about how crappy Fisher was, how the Lakers wouldn't be able to win a title with such a weak link at PG, and how stupid it was to not trade him at the deadline out of sheer loyalty..........then he disappears and never eats CROW after Fisher played huge for them in the playoffs :lmao

lol people who grossly overrate how important volume assist PGs are

I ate plenty of crow. Do a search, I was here during the postseason and afterward admitting I was wrong about him and how much crow I was eating. Where were you?

I don't apologize for anything I said though. Fisher was epically bad in the regular season last year. And if the Lakers traded him for Hinrich we would have won the title easier. :toast

[ginobili's bald spot]

Does anyone remember last year when picc84 spent the entire season talking shit about how crappy Fisher was, how the Lakers wouldn't be able to win a title with such a weak link at PG, and how stupid it was to not trade him at the deadline out of sheer loyalty..........then he disappears and never eats CROW after Fisher played huge for them in the playoffs :lmao

lol people who grossly overrate how important volume assist PGs are


Fisher IS horrible and the Lakers ARE dumb not getting rid of him out of loyalty. But his sucking doesn't have anything to do with how many assists he doesn't get. That being said, I agree with you about ball dominant PG's. Having a guy dribble around in circles for 20 seconds isn't a winning formula in the NBA. The fact that the triangle offense prevents a PG from doing that is one of the reasons it has won so many championships IMO.

[LnGrrrR]

Nash without a moments hesitation.

I would actually say the opposite.

[Kyle Orton]

Neither Deron Williams nor Melo will ever "carry" a team to a championship a la 1994 Olajuwon or 2003 Duncan as the clearcut #1 option on his team who does everything on offense. The fact that Deron Williams can eek out more regular season wins carrying an offense than Melo can carrying an offense and is more dangerous as the "do everything" guy on offense because of his assists doesn't matter (to me at least). They both will need prolly 2 other co-stars on their team to ever win a title. I view Melo as better because I see him as the more dangerous member of a big 3 than I see Deron Williams.

For all the talk of him making teammates better, what has he done for Al Jefferson, a guy who is great iso'd in the low post but doesn't specialize in playing off the PG? Jefferson is shooting his lowest career FG% this year and isn't getting the touches in the post he was getting in Minnesota. Maybe Deron Williams is able to make a teammate better when said teammate's game attributes itself to playing off a volume assist PG (which isn't really D-Will making him better, it's him using the skillset he has), but when the player is like Al Jefferson and needs his own touches on offense to be productive, D-Will hasn't shown to be very good at getting said player touches in the post and hasn't shown to be very good at playing off said player.

[cheguevara]

Neither Deron Williams nor Melo will ever "carry" a team to a championship a la 1994 Olajuwon or 2003 Duncan as the clearcut #1 option on his team who does everything on offense.

neither could Kobe, Dirk or Lebron.

I don't think I disagree with you but you can build a team around Deron.

[rayjayjohnson]

good for the nuggets, ensures that 6th seed.

[rayjayjohnson]

i mean 8th seed.

[8FOR!3]

I don't know if D-Will's any better than Melo, but he's definitely going to be a better fit in Jersey. Avery Johnson should be able to get this team to start playing some solid d in the future.

[history2b]

Every smart NBA fan knows that "leading a team" is a relative entity.

Leading a team with no help in 94 isn't the same as leading a team in 87 with no help.

The Legend of 2003 is nothing more than a bunch Spurs homers overrating their hero and demi-god Tim Duncan.

[Kyle Orton]

Leading a team with no help in 94 isn't the same as leading a team in 87 with no help.



gr8 post bro. I'd definitely quantify a supporting cast of Kareem, James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper and A.C. Green as "no help".

[Zelophehad]

rofl if Williams hated Sloan, he's going to go Sprewell on Avery.

[Brazil]

D-Will or Melo is a toss up IMO depends on what you are looking for. Nevertheless I think the Nets did the better trade comparing to NY especially with 2 unprotected picks. It's of course a gamble, risk is Dwill not signs an extension but he worths the risk.

[Axe Murderer]

Every smart NBA fan knows that "leading a team" is a relative entity.

Leading a team with no help in 94 isn't the same as leading a team in 87 with no help.

The Legend of 2003 is nothing more than a bunch Spurs homers overrating their hero and demi-god Tim Duncan.

:rollin

Of course leave it to the Kobe nut-hugger to say that leading a team is overrated

[024]

this was a good move for the nets. they could have spent the next three years in the lottery and not draft a player as good as deron williams. the nets should still have cap room in 2012 to sign another big name FA like dwight howard.

[LkrFan]

D-Will is now added to THE LIST of players Kobe has chased out of the WC.

KG
Boozer
Amare
D-Will

Who am I missing? :lol

[Girasuck]

Nets pick going to utah is unprotected. And LOL at D-Will learning that he had been traded only through watching sportscenter

This isn't true. Owner Greg Miller called D-Will to let him know, which shocked the hell out of me cause I had no idea our owner grew a pair.

[Kyle Orton]

D-Will is now added to THE LIST of players Kobe has chased out of the WC.

KG
Boozer
Amare
D-Will

Who am I missing? :lol

:lmao what? How did Kobe chase KG out of the Western Conference?

[Gordon Hayward]

Every smart NBA fan knows that "leading a team" is a relative entity.

Leading a team with no help in 94 isn't the same as leading a team in 87 with no help.

The Legend of 2003 is nothing more than a bunch Spurs homers overrating their hero and demi-god Tim Duncan.

Of course. Every smart NBA fan knows these things.

[sefant77]

First Nets game for Deron, crunchtime and Avery bench him for Farmar because he doesnt trust him yet to run his plays. Remember....lol

[rickross]

D-Will is now added to THE LIST of players Kobe has chased out of the WC.

KG
Boozer
Amare
D-Will

Who am I missing? :lol

Nigga u livin on da moon? Have u eva heard of dat nigga melodrama?

[Killakobe81]

Neither Deron Williams nor Melo will ever "carry" a team to a championship a la 1994 Olajuwon or 2003 Duncan as the clearcut #1 option on his team who does everything on offense. The fact that Deron Williams can eek out more regular season wins carrying an offense than Melo can carrying an offense and is more dangerous as the "do everything" guy on offense because of his assists doesn't matter (to me at least). They both will need prolly 2 other co-stars on their team to ever win a title. I view Melo as better because I see him as the more dangerous member of a big 3 than I see Deron Williams.

For all the talk of him making teammates better, what has he done for Al Jefferson, a guy who is great iso'd in the low post but doesn't specialize in playing off the PG? Jefferson is shooting his lowest career FG% this year and isn't getting the touches in the post he was getting in Minnesota. Maybe Deron Williams is able to make a teammate better when said teammate's game attributes itself to playing off a volume assist PG (which isn't really D-Will making him better, it's him using the skillset he has), but when the player is like Al Jefferson and needs his own touches on offense to be productive, D-Will hasn't shown to be very good at getting said player touches in the post and hasn't shown to be very good at playing off said player.

Not a fair comparison by the time AL Jeff reached utah he was damaged good s ...can't blame Dwill for his lack of production. His PG play sure did help Boozer, Milsap, Matthews and himself land huge contracts ...so Dwill sure did make their bank accounts better ...

[baseline bum]

For all the talk of him making teammates better, what has he done for Al Jefferson, a guy who is great iso'd in the low post but doesn't specialize in playing off the PG? Jefferson is shooting his lowest career FG% this year and isn't getting the touches in the post he was getting in Minnesota. Maybe Deron Williams is able to make a teammate better when said teammate's game attributes itself to playing off a volume assist PG (which isn't really D-Will making him better, it's him using the skillset he has), but when the player is like Al Jefferson and needs his own touches on offense to be productive, D-Will hasn't shown to be very good at getting said player touches in the post and hasn't shown to be very good at playing off said player.

Jefferson really hasn't been the same player since tearing his ACL. His stats are pretty similar to what they were last season when he returned from it. I guess it is a fair question to ask why they didn't go up from playing with Williams as opposed to with Johhny Flynn at point, but I don't think he's capable of being that 23/11 guy he was before the injury.

[Kyle Orton]

Not a fair comparison by the time AL Jeff reached utah he was damaged good s

So what you're saying is D-Will can only "make guys better" when they're already good :lmao. Why is it Al Jefferson has a career low FG% this year if D-Will is so great and can create open shots for anyone?

[rayjayjohnson]

:lmao what? How did Kobe chase KG out of the Western Conference?

this. kg doesnt run from anything as far as im aware. scary motherfucker

[crc21209]

I don't really see how Howard would end up in NY..he'll probably be a Laker..

Being the little pussy bitch he is you're probably right....

[Killakobe81]

So what you're saying is D-Will can only "make guys better" when they're already good :lmao. Why is it Al Jefferson has a career low FG% this year if D-Will is so great and can create open shots for anyone?

I am not saying that KO, just saying that is akin to saying shaq missed his only playoffs (IIRC) playing with steve Nash. So Nash didnt make Shaq better either.
Shaq missing the playoffs had more to do with his decline and his effect on the suns system then it did Nash's ability as a PG.

On a related note amare is having an even better year without Nash so how freaking valuable is he? He is a two time MVP. Amare had Felton this year who is only a borderline all-star ...and is having a career year.

Your analogy is a "slippery slope" ...

[Kyle Orton]

I am not saying that KO, just saying that is akin to saying shaq missed his only playoffs (IIRC) playing with steve Nash. So Nash didnt make Shaq better either.
Shaq missing the playoffs had more to do with his decline and his effect on the suns system then it did Nash's ability as a PG.



Fuck no it had something to do with his decline. The Suns missed the playoffs in 2009 because Nash quit and also refused to give Shaq the ball at times. The relationship between Nash and Shaq adds more evidence to my theory about how one-dimensional volume assist PGs are.

[Venti Quattro]

this. kg doesnt run from anything as far as im aware.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Fuck no it had something to do with his decline. The Suns missed the playoffs in 2009 because Nash quit and also refused to give Shaq the ball at times. The relationship between Nash and Shaq adds more evidence to my theory about how one-dimensional volume assist PGs are.

Nash had an off year ...but quit? not saying your theory on ball dominant PG's doesnt have merit ... but Nash is having one of his better seasons despite no amare or Jrich off a team that went to WCF ...

funny thing is they are deeper at true center then any of the really good Suns teams ...but because they have downgraded at SG and PF their team is doing worse despite great seasons (relative) from Nash and Hill ...

[Kyle Orton]

Nash had an off year ...but quit? not saying your theory on ball dominant PG's doesnt have merit ... but Nash is having one of his better seasons despite no amare or Jrich off a team that went to WCF ...



I'm talking about the year they had Shaq. Nash quit. He got Porter fired, had a few good games with Gentry, then quit because he wanted them to miss the playoffs and get Shaq traded. That's how it works in Phoenix, Nash's way or the highway, which is why I harbor some blame towards him for them not resigning Amare. If he went to Sarver and said, "Offer Amare the contract he wants or I'm demanding a trade", Amare is still on the Suns.

[Killakobe81]

I'm talking about the year they had Shaq. Nash quit. He got Porter fired, had a few good games with Gentry, then quit because he wanted them to miss the playoffs and get Shaq traded. That's how it works in Phoenix, Nash's way or the highway, which is why I harbor some blame towards him for them not resigning Amare. If he went to Sarver and said, "Offer Amare the contract he wants or I'm demanding a trade", Amare is still on the Suns.

Kobe could of done the same for Shaq ...
Penny could of as well ...

Not saying you can't blame Nash but Marion and Joe J also wanted out of Phoenix so I blame the Front office more ...

and yes i know you meant that year but similar to Dwill tough for a great PG to lose his best weapons ...I dont blame Nash for being frustrated Shaq to the celts is the first move for Shaq since miami that made any sense. Poor fit on the Suns and Cavs ...not Nash or lebron's fault ...it's the GM's ...

Nash has been losing star team-mates since he got there ...and selling draft picks for cash ...

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Why do this NOW? Dumbass move. They could have shifted him in the off-season or any time next year if they're worried about him leaving for nothing. Really stupid move.

[Kyle Orton]

Kobe could of done the same for Shaq ...
Penny could of as well ...

Not saying you can't blame Nash but Marion and Joe J also wanted out of Phoenix so I blame the Front office more ...

and yes i know you meant that year but similar to Dwill tough for a great PG to lose his best weapons ...I dont blame Nash for being frustrated Shaq to the celts is the first move for Shaq since miami that made any sense. Poor fit on the Suns and Cavs ...not Nash or lebron's fault ...it's the GM's ...

Nash has been losing star team-mates since he got there ...and selling draft picks for cash ...

It's not Nash's fault, it's just evidence that volume assist PGs are just as guilty of being unable to co-exist with other stars as anyone else.

The thing no one seems to get is Amare didn't want out. The Knicks offered him 5 years $99,000,000, he went back to the Suns and told them they could keep him at 5 years $92,000,000 (which was an incredibly fair stance for him to take). All Nash needed to do was say, "I'm as good as gone if you don't give Amare the money he wants and has earned" and Sarver wouldn't have let Amare leave.

[Donkeybong]

Anyone here anything about Deron being living about the trade and refusing to board the plane heading to New Jersey?

[TD 21]

I'm late to this and will probably just end up echoing previously said sentiments, but . . . what a shocker! You don't see that very often in this day and age, where virtually everything get's out beforehand.

The Jazz did very well to get a PG who, at his best, is a cut below All-Star caliber, is on an affordable contract for a few more seasons and is either just entering or in the early stages of his prime. Favors is a blue chipper, just a cut below an elite level prospect and the two picks figure to be quality ones. Whether they can walk away with quality out of them, obviously it remains to be seen.

This trade was so good for the Jazz, that they might have done it even if they felt Williams were more likely to stay than not. At the very least, I think they'd have still strongly considered it. Also, like the Nuggets, they're still capable of and I expect them to make the playoffs.

For the Nets, they better hope Williams re-signs. If not, they gave up a lot for basically nothing, since they're not going to be substantially better in the interim. If he does re-sign, then it was worth it, even if Favors fulfills his potential and becomes All-Star caliber. Like Jefferson said, having a PG like Williams makes them a more desirable destination for players, particularly with them having a deep pocket owner willing to spend and with them moving to Brooklyn soon.

Getting Wright helps soften the blow somewhat of giving up Favors. He's not his caliber of prospect and the label prospect is close to being replaced with the label bust, but he gives them a young, athletic PF to take Favors' place.

[sefant77]

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[ROFLCOPTER]&set=key[number],value[8]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p7420336_customback.chain]

[Kyle Orton]

Big Daddy Jefferson scores 30 points on 78% shooting in his first game without D-Will :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[LkrFan]

:lmao what? How did Kobe chase KG out of the Western Conference?
Psst: KG was a T'Pup for a decade. He was a 2nd round virgin until Sprewell and Sam Cassell showed up. And he never ever beat the Lakers until 2008 with the Celtics. Just saying...:wakeup

[Kyle Orton]

That doesn't answer how Kobe and the 2007 Lakers scared him out of the West.

[MavDynasty]

Hi Benny

[Kyle Orton]

Hi Timmy

[LnGrrrR]

Big Daddy Jefferson scores 30 points on 78% shooting in his first game without D-Will :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

:lol instant vindication!

[alamo50]

So Sloan quit for nothing???!?!

:wow