Two million Egyptians express love for new Democratic Freedoms...

[Yonivore]

...and Martyrdom but, mostly Martyrdom.

They're chanting, "To Jerusalem we are heading, Martyrs in the millions."

du5emnvGgvg

Yeah, things are looking up in Egypt...nothing to worry about.

[ChumpDumper]

When did you learn to speak Arabic, counselor?

[johnsmith]

I'm starting to think there is something to this 2012 end of the world stuff.

[johnsmith]

When did you learn to speak Arabic, counselor?

When did you completely stop responding to thread topics and resort to trolling first and foremost?

[ChumpDumper]

When did you completely stop responding to thread topics and resort to trolling first and foremost?I've always been this way.

When did you start whining about it?

[Trainwreck2100]

yeah, that'll end well

[Yonivore]

When did you completely stop responding to thread topics and resort to trolling first and foremost?
That is lost to history...

[ChumpDumper]

That is lost to history...One can easily look up the thread in which you extended an olive branch....

....and when you pretended to be someone else....

[Yonivore]

Can't wait to hear Jimmy Carter explain this one away...

[ChumpDumper]

Can't wait to hear Jimmy Carter explain this one away...Do you seriously think 2 million Egyptians are going to march to Jerusalem?

[DMX7]

But But But Bush wanted to bring democracy to the Middle East. Is this really what he wanted ????

[johnsmith]

I've always been this way.

When did you start whining about it?

Looks like at 9:33

[johnsmith]

But But But Bush wanted to bring democracy to the Middle East. Is this really what he wanted ????

Wow

[Yonivore]

But But But Bush wanted to bring democracy to the Middle East. Is this really what he wanted ????
If you think Egypt is becoming a Democracy, you're being naive. The only reason Iraq has a chance is because the United States Military pacified the fucking place. And, now, they're working on Afghanistan.

We may have run out of time.

I seriously believe this will end with some exchange of some bad-ass weaponry; we cannot afford to deploy on another front.

[ChumpDumper]

If you think Egypt is becoming a Democracy, you're being naive. The only reason Iraq has a chance is because the United States Military pacified the fucking place. And, now, they're working on Afghanistan.

We may have run out of time.

I seriously believe this will end with some exchange of some bad-ass weaponry; we cannot afford to deploy on another front.Why do we need to do anything, counselor?

How has fucking with even proto-democratic movements in the mideast helped the US long tern?

Ever?

[Spurminator]

If you're looking for a good laugh, Google "To Jerusalem we are heading, Martyrs in the millions" and check out the URLs.

[ChumpDumper]

I like the fact they are taking this translation from a YouTube comment, apparently with zero corroboration.

[Spurminator]

This is such a blatantly organized viral effort that anyone with a shred of intellectual curiosity can't help but be skeptical. Where is the source for the 2 million number, and why is that the number everyone seems to agree on? How do you know that's what the chants translate to? How can you even understand the chants?

You're scared of a bunch of Arabs, and this is a coordinated effort to play on the fears of racists and idiots.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22To+Jerusalem+we+are+heading,+Martyrs+in+the+m illions.%22

[ChumpDumper]

This is such a blatantly organized viral effort that anyone with a shred of intellectual curiosity can't help but be skeptical. Where is the source for the 2 million number, and why is that the number everyone seems to agree on? How do you know that's what the chants translate to? How can you even understand the chants?

You're scared of a bunch of Arabs, and this is a coordinated effort to play on the fears of racists and idiots.I believe everything I read at rapturewatch.net.

[Spurminator]

http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/bni_logo_star_cross.png

DarrinS loves this site.

[Spurminator]

I believe everything I read at rapturewatch.net.

A sister site of fulfilledprophesy.com perhaps?

[ChumpDumper]

http://ranchers.net/images/bannerBS.gif

I didn't quite get this one, but hell -- spurstalk is going to be way up on the list now too.

[Spurminator]

Honestly, the more I listen to it, it sounds like they're saying "Bring back Firefly!"

And I only count about 200K.

[ElNono]

CROFL @ "Iraq has a chance"

[DarrinS]

http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/bni_logo_star_cross.png

DarrinS loves this site.



I prefer Stratfor.com. Perhaps you could subscribe and learn a thing or two.

[Yonivore]

This is such a blatantly organized viral effort that anyone with a shred of intellectual curiosity can't help but be skeptical. Where is the source for the 2 million number, and why is that the number everyone seems to agree on? How do you know that's what the chants translate to? How can you even understand the chants?

You're scared of a bunch of Arabs, and this is a coordinated effort to play on the fears of racists and idiots.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=%22To+Jerusalem+we+are+heading,+Martyrs+in+the+m illions.%22
Then, you have nothing to worry about; move along.

[Spurminator]

Then, you have nothing to worry about; move along.

:lol Motherfucker, I will be on you every time you post a thread like this. If you don't like it, go be a disciple elsewhere.

[RandomGuy]

If you think Egypt is becoming a Democracy, you're being naive. The only reason Iraq has a chance is because the United States Military pacified the fucking place. And, now, they're working on Afghanistan.

We may have run out of time.

I seriously believe this will end with some exchange of some bad-ass weaponry; we cannot afford to deploy on another front.

I am not naive.

I am also not limited by some rather severe ideological blinders either.

You have seen what you want to see there. I will be saving this particular comment.

Further, I will say it rather clearly:

Egypt is heading towards more democracy, and a less corruption than Iraq.

They will acheive more in the next 2 years, than Iraq will have, since 2003. That may be something of an exaggeration, but I don't see it devolving into a theocracy, ala Iran.

The results of that Democracy is that they will not be as friendly with Israel, because that is the will of their people.

If you can't accept that is the result of democracy, then you are directly implying that democracy isn't a good outcome.

Do you hate democracy? or just democracy when it disagrees with you?

Honestly, your entire take on this is something that I find to be outright fascistic, and I don't use this word lightly.

[Stringer_Bell]

:lol Motherfucker, I will be on you every time you post a thread like this. If you don't like it, go be a disciple elsewhere.

To be fair, there are a good number of "pro-Palestinian" comments supporting the idea that 2m people were all chanting this shit. They called it a beautiful display. Yusuf al-Qaradawi supposedly led these people in prayers that day...


There were other chants regarding Jerusalem... and the sound of them was, quoting a very happy friend of mine, "soooooooooooooo powerful" :)

Pretty sick shit, can anyone translate to see what they're actually saying? o.O By the way, 2m out of 84m isn't too bad, but it's basically like a big Tea Party rally tbh.

[fraga]

Just imagine if you sprinkled in a bunch of black people with them Arabs...oh dear...Darrin and Yoni would be shittin bricks...

[Spurminator]

2 million people chanting the same phrase would be indecipherable.

Can we at least agree that if Fox News doesn't even pick this story up, it has no validity?

[CosmicCowboy]

Looks like a skillet shot to me...needs a rolling thunder air strike.

[Sec24Row7]

I am not naive.

I am also not limited by some rather severe ideological blinders either.

You have seen what you want to see there. I will be saving this particular comment.

Further, I will say it rather clearly:

Egypt is heading towards more democracy, and a less corruption than Iraq.

They will acheive more in the next 2 years, than Iraq will have, since 2003. That may be something of an exaggeration, but I don't see it devolving into a theocracy, ala Iran.

The results of that Democracy is that they will not be as friendly with Israel, because that is the will of their people.

If you can't accept that is the result of democracy, then you are directly implying that democracy isn't a good outcome.

Do you hate democracy? or just democracy when it disagrees with you?

Honestly, your entire take on this is something that I find to be outright fascistic, and I don't use this word lightly.

Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion.

I would rather have a brutal crushing dictator in place that is friendly with the US than a utopian democracy that was our enemy.

If you don't feel the same way you are a sheltered idiot.

[Yonivore]

:lol Motherfucker, I will be on you every time you post a thread like this. If you don't like it, go be a disciple elsewhere.
Uh, I don't care.

[Spurminator]

Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion.

I would rather have a brutal crushing dictator in place that is friendly with the US than a utopian democracy that was our enemy.

If you don't feel the same way you are a sheltered idiot.

If you believe this, why should anyone believe you would not oppose American democracy if it didn't suit your personal interests?

[Spurminator]

Uh, I don't care.

Good, then status quo it is.

Anxiously awaiting your next chain email-inspired thread.

[Sec24Row7]

If you believe this, why should anyone believe you would not oppose American democracy if it didn't suit your personal interests?

I do oppose American democracy when It doesn't suit my personal interests...

I have a vote and use it.

[Spurminator]

That IS democracy.

Would you support a dictatorship in the U.S. if the dictator's policies aligned with your ideology?

[CosmicCowboy]

True democracies are doomed to fail badly.

[Sec24Row7]

(facepalm) That IS democracy.


Would you support a dictatorship in the U.S. if the dictator's policies aligned with your ideology?

No Shit that's democracy... and how do you think you are supposed to change it BACK to your ideology in all but the most extreme circumstances?

I would be happy to live in a dictatorship that supported my ideology... it wouldn't be here though.

I personally think that the best government in the world is a monarchy with a benevolent monarch.

That being said those monarchies are short term and unstable because the good of the government is only as good as the sitting monarch.

[MannyIsGod]

Looooooooooooooooool




I do oppose American democracy when It doesn't suit my personal interests...

I have a vote and use it.

[boutons_deux]

In related new about the US/UK Merchants of Death

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shaw/reading-the-pictures-idav_b_827505.html?view=print

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/files/2011/02/Cameron-Tahrir-Square.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-shaw/reading-the-pictures-idav_b_827505.html?view=print

[Sec24Row7]

Looooooooooooooooool

I'm laughing harder at you for being too stupid to get what I said than you are at me for your (incorrect) assumption that what I said technically doesn't make sense.

[MannyIsGod]

No Shit that's democracy... and how do you think you are supposed to change it BACK to your ideology in all but the most extreme circumstances?

I would be happy to live in a dictatorship that supported my ideology... it wouldn't be here though.

I personally think that the best government in the world is a monarchy with a benevolent monarch.

That being said those monarchies are short term and unstable because the good of the government is only as good as the sitting monarch.

And others are the sheltered idiots? Nice.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm laughing harder at you for being too stupid to get what I said than you are at me for your (incorrect) assumption that what I said technically doesn't make sense.
Oh yeah? Well I'm laughing even harder! Take that!

[DarrinS]

Just imagine if you sprinkled in a bunch of black people with them Arabs...oh dear...Darrin and Yoni would be shittin bricks...


I think you should go to Tahrir square and see if you shit a brick.


By the way, Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

[Sec24Row7]

*shrug*

[MannyIsGod]

I oppose democracy so I vote is one hell of a qoute.

[Sec24Row7]

I think you should go to Tahrir square and see if you shit a brick.


By the way, Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

http://rob.nu/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/facepalm11.jpg

[Sec24Row7]

I oppose democracy so I vote is one hell of a qoute.

And that would be really stupid, had I said that.

[Yonivore]

I oppose democracy so I vote is one hell of a qoute.
You do understand the difference between a democracy and a representative republic, right?

[DarrinS]

Facepalm all you want, but it's the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians





The Egyptians are not Arabs, and both they and the Arabs are aware of this fact. They are Arabic-speaking, and they are Muslim —indeed religion plays a greater part in their lives than it does in those either of the Syrians or the Iraqi. But the Egyptian, during the first thirty years of the [twentieth] century, was not aware of any particular bond with the Arab East...

[CosmicCowboy]

You do understand the difference between a democracy and a representative republic, right?

apparently not.

[Spurminator]

Is Egypt becoming a Representative Republic? Do you guys oppose that?

[jack sommerset]

I'm starting to think there is something to this 2012 end of the world stuff.

LoL...No doubt.

[Sec24Row7]

Facepalm all you want, but it's the truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians

Arab is a race.

You can't be of a different race just because you don't identify with your origin.

When you are conquered by Arabs in the 600's and have 1400 years of intermarriage and interbreeding... speak their language and practice their religion...

What are you?

They claim "egyptian" because of the amazing history that their country holds... but in reality... the closest thing to "egyptian" is probably "ethiopian"

[MannyIsGod]

Who said anything about a representative repubulic?

[clambake]

hey yoni, tell your dishwasher to do the job you wouldn't do.

problem solved.

[Sec24Row7]

Who said anything about a representative repubulic?

I'm with you on that one.

[CosmicCowboy]

Is Egypt becoming a Representative Republic?

Of course not. Those sand savages always fuck it up.


Do you guys oppose that?

If they oppose our best interests.

If SpursTalk got together and democratically voted to come rob your house and kill you, would you support our decision?

[clambake]

so, its already been determined that they're gonna come and rob our house and kill us?

lol

[Spurminator]

I believe you have the right to vote with whoever you want, about whatever you want. Fortunately, the higher law governing our society would have you all locked up if you actually carried out the robbing and killing.

[CosmicCowboy]

I believe you have the right to vote with whoever you want, about whatever you want. Fortunately, the higher law governing our society would have you all locked up if you actually carried out the robbing and killing.

Ahhhhh....thus, you see the difference between a Democracy and a Constitutional Republic.

[Yonivore]

Who said anything about a representative repubulic?
Nobody. That's kind of the problem with these threads that pit democracy against tyranny; they forget the sane alternative adopted by our founders.

[Spurminator]

I never suggested we were a pure democracy.

[CosmicCowboy]

I never suggested we were a pure democracy.

However, you were the one advocating Democracy.

[Spurminator]

As it applies to these discussions, clearly "democracy" is an umbrella under which all forms of government that are in anyway influenced by the people fall.

[boutons_deux]

"sane alternative adopted by our founders."

aka, white-only, land-owning, male-only Euro-Americans

[MannyIsGod]

However, you were the one advocating Democracy.

I know you guys think you're being clever, but a representative republic IS a democracy.


I advocate crows but not birds

[CosmicCowboy]

The subject is Egypt. They have NO history or cultural heritage that suggests that the people, given a pure democracy, would choose a western model of representative government.

[MannyIsGod]

Nobody. That's kind of the problem with these threads that pit democracy against tyranny; they forget the sane alternative adopted by our founders.

Who said anything about a pure democracy?

[CosmicCowboy]

Democracy is not necessarily all goodness and light. Don't forget that Hitler was democratically elected.

[Spurminator]

I did specify American democracy. If we have differing opinions about what to call our system of government, fine, but I think the point I was making was clear.

If you oppose Egyptian people influencing their government because it's not in your best interest, I have no reason to believe you would not oppose the idea of American people influencing our government if you felt it would negatively impact you.

If you support tyranny abroad, why should I believe you wouldn't support it here?

[CosmicCowboy]

I would oppose evil even if it was democratically elected.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol @ bringing up Eygpt history as if British colonization and the Cold War don't have huge effects on it. No, its just because they're "sand savages", right CC?

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol @ bringing up Eygpt history as if British colonization and the Cold War don't have huge effects on it. No, its just because they're "sand savages", right CC?

Manny, how do you carry around all that collective guilt?

[Spurminator]

I would oppose evil even if it was democratically elected.

I would too but I'm not ready to assume the new Egyptian government will be evil just because the people are Muslim.

I guess we'll see.

[MannyIsGod]

Guilt? I haven no guilt. I merely point out that those people were manipulated and conquered. When you put a boot on someone's face and then ridicule them for not getting up I think you're a dumb ass.

What is it about the facts and honest analysis that you guys are so afraid of?

You do wonders for proving you're not a bigot by using the term "sand savages" though. :tu

[LnGrrrR]

Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion.

I would rather have a brutal crushing dictator in place that is friendly with the US than a utopian democracy that was our enemy.

If you don't feel the same way you are a sheltered idiot.

:lmao

Ladies and gentlemen, the new and improved conservatism!

[LnGrrrR]

Looks like a skillet shot to me...needs a rolling thunder air strike.

You forgot the blue font.

[CosmicCowboy]

Guilt? I haven no guilt. I merely point out that those people were manipulated and conquered. When you put a boot on someone's face and then ridicule them for not getting up I think you're a dumb ass.

What is it about the facts and honest analysis that you guys are so afraid of?

So how far back does the guilt go? The Egyptian tribes have been ruled by either strongmen (whether you call them Pharaohs or Presidents) or others like the Persians, Romans, etc. since the dawn of time.

[LnGrrrR]

No Shit that's democracy... and how do you think you are supposed to change it BACK to your ideology in all but the most extreme circumstances?

I would be happy to live in a dictatorship that supported my ideology... it wouldn't be here though.

I personally think that the best government in the world is a monarchy with a benevolent monarch.

That being said those monarchies are short term and unstable because the good of the government is only as good as the sitting monarch.

:lmao Why even call yourself an American? :lol "I'm an American, but I don't believe in liberty or freedom or democracy."

[MannyIsGod]

So how far back does the guilt go? The Egyptian tribes have been ruled by either strongmen (whether you call them Pharaohs or Presidents) or others like the Persians, Romans, etc. since the dawn of time.

Whats your fascination with the world guilt in this context? Have the colonization of Africa and the cold war played a role in the type of government Egyptians have had? Yes or no?

Why the hell is this an issue of guilt?

[RandomGuy]

Looks like a skillet shot to me...needs a rolling thunder air strike.

Because, as we all know, dropping ordinance on packed crowds is the best way to win friends and convince people you aren't evil.

[CosmicCowboy]

Whats your fascination with the world guilt in this context? Have the colonization of Africa and the cold war played a role in the type of government Egyptians have had? Yes or no?

Why the hell is this an issue of guilt?

Collective Guilt as in making excuses for them because others have been "mean" to them over the years.

You are the one that chose to take issue with my statement that the Egyptian people have no history or cultural heritage that would lead any logical person to the conclusion that they will choose a Constitutional Republic form of government.

[RandomGuy]

Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion.

I would rather have a brutal crushing dictator in place that is friendly with the US than a utopian democracy that was our enemy.

If you don't feel the same way you are a sheltered idiot.

At least you are honest about being a fascist. It's refreshing.

Democracy tends to foster the kinds of ties between countries that precludes wars and decreases hostility.

If you can't accept that the will of the people might not always go your way, you, by definition, hate democracy.

That is about as un-American as it gets.

[CosmicCowboy]

Because, as we all know, dropping ordinance on packed crowds is the best way to win friends and convince people you aren't evil.

As in, you are too dumb to recognize when you are being baited? :lmao

[RandomGuy]

I do oppose American democracy when It doesn't suit my personal interests...

I have a vote and use it.

:smchode:

Every time I think that someone has said the stupidest thing I have ever seen in the forum, people like you come along and see to revel in competing for that prize. :lobt:

[CosmicCowboy]

:smchode:

Every time I think that someone has said the stupidest thing I have ever seen in the forum, people like you come along and see to revel in competing for that prize. :lobt:

I thought you retired that prize after winning it so often?

[RandomGuy]

As in, you are too dumb to recognize when you are being baited? :lmao

I know you weren't being overly serious. That's why I didn't call you names.

Jackass.

[MannyIsGod]

Collective Guilt as in making excuses for them because others have been "mean" to them over the years.

How the fuck can we have a conversation when you just assign new meanings to words whenever you want? Do you even know what guilt means? It has nothing to do with reasons or even excuses as you put them. Its a fucking emotion one feels.



You are the one that chose to take issue with my statement that the Egyptian people have no history or cultural heritage that would lead any logical person to the conclusion that they will choose a Constitutional Republic form of government.

I took issue with your USE of that statement. For the past 150 years the wishes of the Egyptian people have not been the dominant factor in what government they've had. Thats an important factor to consider, don't you think?

It has nothing to do with fucking guilt and everything to do with reality.

[Spurminator]

This thread was more fun when we were making fun of the sites that posted this video.

http://www.galacticroundtable.com/forum/topics/2-million-egyptians-in-tahrir

:lol

[Sec24Row7]

:lmao Why even call yourself an American? :lol "I'm an American, but I don't believe in liberty or freedom or democracy."

The fact of the matter is... that in order to preserve OUR way of life, sometimes we have to destroy the way of life of those that threaten us.

That's just the way the world works.

As to this quote... by LnGrrrR. I never said that did I? I said

"I would be happy to live in a dictatorship that supported my ideology... it wouldn't be here though."

(to be frank I don't think one exists)

And my original quote:

"Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion."


So you are basically just wrong.

[Spurminator]

The fact of the matter is... that in order to preserve OUR way of life, sometimes we have to destroy the way of life of those that threaten us.

Why don't we at least wait until we're threatened first?

[CosmicCowboy]

I took issue with your USE of that statement. For the past 150 years the wishes of the Egyptian people have not been the dominant factor in what government they've had. Thats an important factor to consider, don't you think?

It has nothing to do with fucking guilt and everything to do with reality.

It's not just the past 150 years. It's been since the dawn of mankind.

You HONESTLY think they are going to end up with a Constitutional Republic form of government?

pfffft.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't know what they're going to do but I don't see why its so outlandish that they establish a constitutional democracy. Of course if I viewed them as "sand savages" that might be different.

[Sec24Row7]

At least you are honest about being a fascist. It's refreshing.

Democracy tends to foster the kinds of ties between countries that precludes wars and decreases hostility.

If you can't accept that the will of the people might not always go your way, you, by definition, hate democracy.

That is about as un-American as it gets.


hah...

If Egypt democratically elects a government (which would most likely be some kind of theocratic hybrid) that decides to go into a Cold war with Israel (again) and side with a potentially nuclear Iran and newly liberated and possibly extremist influenced Libya (that will hold nothing but elections in name only)

You are telling me that I am un-American for wanting to stop that before it starts?

Ok dude...

[boutons_deux]

It's THEIR country.

Amazing, eternal hubris that the UCA still thinks it can dictate/force the another country to form a govt friendly to UCA (esp friendly to UCA corps, since UCA corps are the primary reason The American Empire exists. Public funding the Empire for private gain.)

[Spurminator]

If Egypt democratically elects a government (which would most likely be some kind of theocratic hybrid) that decides to go into a Cold war with Israel (again) and side with a potentially nuclear Iran and newly liberated and possibly extremist influenced Libya (that will hold nothing but elections in name only)

You are telling me that I am un-American for wanting to stop that before it starts?

Ok dude...

They haven't done that.

You want to keep people from voting because there is potential for a vote that goes against our interests.

If they elect the wrong government and align with the wrong nations and threaten our allies, THEN they are our enemy.

[Sec24Row7]

Why don't we at least wait until we're threatened first?

And I would say that toppling a dictator that would at least come to the negotiating table if even unfriendly is more than likely better than you are going to get with a new government.

I know it has been used time and again... but look at the dominoes that fell when we let the Shah fall... he could have put down the uprising in Iran handily with our help. (or at least a blind eye) and now we are dealing with madmen who are working on nukes...

I do not deny that I am selfish and self serving against people in other countries...

Can anyone deny that THEY are as well? If they are not... why all the uproar about the "American Way of Life" being destroyed? Have you ever slept in a dung and grass hut? I have. It sucks, and is one hell of a lot less posh than living in a project with running water and heat.

Why all the griping about "American Jobs going over seas!" Those people over there are less privileged EMPLOYED than anyone in this country on welfare.

It REEKS of hypocrisy.

[CosmicCowboy]

They haven't done that.

You want to keep people from voting because there is potential for a vote that goes against our interests.

If they elect the wrong government and align with the wrong nations and threaten our allies, THEN they are our enemy.

So you are saying that you would still prefer a government that was "democratically" elected even if it was a religious theocracy that threatens Israeli and US interests over a strong centralized government that was aligned with Israeli and US interests?

[Spurminator]

So you are saying that you would still prefer a government that was "democratically" elected even if it was a religious theocracy that threatens Israeli and US interests over a strong centralized government that was aligned with Israeli and US interests?

I would prefer we let them decide on their government, yes. If they decide on one that puts them at risk, then it's on them.

[Yonivore]

I would prefer we let them decide on their government, yes. If they decide on one that puts them at risk, then it's on them.
What if it's one that puts the stability of an entire region -- including our interests there -- at risk?

Does your preference change?

[Yonivore]

Why don't we at least wait until we're threatened first?
Isn't that pretty much all Mahmoud Ahmadenijad has done since he's been around? Threaten us and provide arms, expertise, and personnel to those who have been killing our soldiers on the battlefield?

[Spurminator]

What if it's one that puts the stability of an entire region -- including our interests there -- at risk?

Does your preference change?

No. Letting them decide on their government is a necessary first step for fostering permanent stability in the region. You deal with anti-American governments after they're elected. You don't squash democracy before the people are even given a chance to elect their government. That precedent puts us at much greater future risk than the alternative.

[Spurminator]

Isn't that pretty much all Mahmoud Ahmadenijad has done since he's been around? Threaten us and provide arms, expertise, and personnel to those who have been killing our soldiers on the battlefield?

I'm sorry, I didn't read the news that Mahmoud Ahmadenijad was the new elected leader of Egypt, link?

[Sec24Row7]

I would prefer we let them decide on their government, yes. If they decide on one that puts them at risk, then it's on them.

And Us.

If this happened in Saudi Arabia you would cheer lead the people on against the evil Saud's and then blame the Evil Oil companies for raising your Gasoline prices to $8 a gallon when their strong central government was destroyed and the entire middle east funded the civil war trying to get their tribe in control of Mecca/Medina and the oil reserves.

[boutons_deux]

So just how is UCA, and Yoni and CC, going to prevent these countries from installing govts that are unfriendly to the American Empire?

Go 1956 on Egypt, and US/UK invade again?

[Spurminator]

And Us.

If this happened in Saudi Arabia you would cheer lead the people on against the evil Saud's and then blame the Evil Oil companies for raising your Gasoline prices to $8 a gallon when their strong central government was destroyed and the entire middle east funded the civil war trying to get their tribe in control of Mecca/Medina and the oil reserves.

In the context of this, I don't give a flying fuck about gas prices. We will adapt.

[Sec24Row7]

In the context of this, I don't give a flying fuck about gas prices. We will adapt.

And in this same context let me tell you that I would directly profit 4X + from oil prices that generated $8 a gallon and would do everything in my power to STOP it from happening because it would be bad for America.

[Yonivore]

In the context of this, I don't give a flying fuck about gas prices. We will adapt.
You must not eat.

Higher fuel prices impact the price of every good that finds its way to the grocery store in the back of a truck, on the car of a train, or in the belly of a plane.

[Spurminator]

We will adapt. And we should, if our interests are tied to a commodity that requires billions of people to live under tyranny.

[Spurminator]

"Fuck your human rights, I need $3 gas."

And we call them evil. Awesome.

[Sec24Row7]

"Fuck your human rights, I need $3 gas."

And we call them evil. Awesome.

You can't have it both ways. Are you willing to walk 6 blocks to get water?

Are you willing to have electricity once a week for 6 hours?

That is the kind of rationing that would be necessary for EVERYONE to be equal.

Be happy you live here. Fight to stay on top.

I am and I will. I've walked around the bottom.

[LnGrrrR]

The fact of the matter is... that in order to preserve OUR way of life, sometimes we have to destroy the way of life of those that threaten us.

That's just the way the world works.

Glad you're willing to abandon all morals to accomplish your goals, even if the outcome may be that it leads to our demise quicker.

What you're saying is, we could beat Hitler and a vast army while keeping our morality, but we can't do the same to defeat a small number of scattered terrorists. :tu


As to this quote... by LnGrrrR. I never said that did I? I said

"I would be happy to live in a dictatorship that supported my ideology... it wouldn't be here though."

(to be frank I don't think one exists)

Might as well say "I'd be happy to live in a world where unicorns existed and they pooped ice cream."


"Democracy is not a good outcome in Egypt for the United States. I don't hate democracy in general, but democracy that doesn't serve the interest of the American people is useless in my opinion."

And of course, what serves the interest of the American people is whatever you think serves the interest, right? Tell me, when DOESN'T democracy serve the interest of the American people?



So you are basically just wrong.

Not really. You're just basically ignorant.

[LnGrrrR]

hah...

If Egypt democratically elects a government (which would most likely be some kind of theocratic hybrid) that decides to go into a Cold war with Israel (again) and side with a potentially nuclear Iran and newly liberated and possibly extremist influenced Libya (that will hold nothing but elections in name only)

You are telling me that I am un-American for wanting to stop that before it starts?

Ok dude...

Certainly, the best way to get them to side with us instead of our enemies is to demolish their hopes for a democracy, and install a dictator and support him. Surely, the people will love us after that.

[Sec24Row7]

When doesn't democracy serve the best interest of the American people?

Uhh how about when Palestine elects Hamas...

How about when our allies that helped us gain our own freedom were being drug to the gallows in France.

Trying times...

Now you can argue that the French revolution ultimately served our best interest because we were able to peacefully obtain half of the nation from a defunct Napolean.

But certainly looking at it at the time of the occurrence, it was pretty hairy...

[LnGrrrR]

When doesn't democracy serve the best interest of the American people?

Uhh how about when Palestine elects Hamas...

How about when our allies that helped us gain our own freedom were being drug to the gallows in France.

Trying times...

Now you can argue that the French revolution ultimately served our best interest because we were able to peacefully obtain half of the nation from a defunct Napolean.

But certainly looking at it at the time of the occurrence, it was pretty hairy...

Ah, so you think we should squash democracies that are not friendly with us, and install dictators who are, and there won't be any negative effects. Do you think areason why Iranian people might be pissed at us is because we controlled their government?

[LnGrrrR]

You can't have it both ways. Are you willing to walk 6 blocks to get water?

Are you willing to have electricity once a week for 6 hours?

That is the kind of rationing that would be necessary for EVERYONE to be equal.

Be happy you live here. Fight to stay on top.

I am and I will. I've walked around the bottom.

False dichotomy. We can have our rights AND still not live in a hut.

[DarrinS]

"Fuck your human rights, I need $3 gas."

And we call them evil. Awesome.


Fuck you.

[Yonivore]

Do you think areason why Iranian people might be pissed at us is because we controlled their government?
That makes a nice excuse.

Why are they mad at Israel?

[Sec24Row7]

Ah, so you think we should squash democracies that are not friendly with us, and install dictators who are, and there won't be any negative effects. Do you think areason why Iranian people might be pissed at us is because we controlled their government?

Of course there are negative effects... There are reactions to every action. The problem is... You cannot take using the big stick off the table.

I'm not Machiavellian. I would rather people like us than fear us. But if they are going to hate us anyway, it's much more productive if they fear us.

[Wild Cobra]

Can't wait to hear Jimmy Carter explain this one away...
Probably become another Iran or Iraq. Get rid of someone you dislike, just to be replaced by a "twelver."

[Wild Cobra]

I am not naive.

I am also not limited by some rather severe ideological blinders either.

Bullshit.


Further, I will say it rather clearly:

Egypt is heading towards more democracy, and a less corruption than Iraq.

LOL...

Are you crazy? Just watch... Things will get worse in Egypt, not better.

You are naive.


The results of that Democracy is that they will not be as friendly with Israel, because that is the will of their people.

So you favor a democracy where the wolves outnumber the sheep.


If you can't accept that is the result of democracy, then you are directly implying that democracy isn't a good outcome.

It never is. That's why we are a representative democracy with values of the republic. Not a true democracy. Democracy's don't last.

[RandomGuy]

hah...

If Egypt democratically elects a government (which would most likely be some kind of theocratic hybrid) that decides to go into a Cold war with Israel (again) and side with a potentially nuclear Iran and newly liberated and possibly extremist influenced Libya (that will hold nothing but elections in name only)

You are telling me that I am un-American for wanting to stop that before it starts?

Ok dude...

:dramaquee

You are un-American for not wanting more democracy in the world.

As for "most likely", I don't think you know enough about Egypt to render an opinion as to what is "most likely" that I would be willing to bet money on.

Name three people in the Muslim Brotherhood.

[RandomGuy]

Bullshit.

LOL...

Are you crazy? Just watch... Things will get worse in Egypt, not better.

You are naive.

So you favor a democracy where the wolves outnumber the sheep.

It never is. That's why we are a representative democracy with values of the republic. Not a true democracy. Democracy's don't last.


The Muslim Brotherhood may be the largest organized opposition group in the country, but it has not been the leading force behind the protests that have rocked Egypt over the last two weeks -- as much as the government has attempted to paint them as a bogeyman for a Western audience.
The mere fact that the newly appointed vice president met with Brotherhood representatives, among other opposition and independent figures, is an explicit recognition of the group's standing and political legitimacy, and a monumental sea change from decades of Egyptian government pronouncements about the group and its activities. As recently as Feb. 3, in an interview with ABC reporter Christiane Amanpour, Mubarak once again blamed the Brotherhood for the violence in Cairo.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/14/think_again_egypt

None of the analysis I have seen has indicated that the boogeymen you and Yoni are attempting to create is anything other than a paper tiger. They will have some power, but are far short of the kind of power that would turn the country into a theorcratic state.

Sorry.

Once again, reality is the ultimate enemy of the lies you guys seem to suck up as fact on a regular basis.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/08/dialogue_of_the_deaf

[Sec24Row7]

You want me to prove I can google?

[RandomGuy]

As for the Muslim Brotherhood itself, it probably represents no more than 20 percent of the Egyptian population. And now that the mass public has been mobilized and energized by calls for freedom and good governance -- not Islam -- the movement is in danger of being pushed to the margins of political life. Egyptians are a religious people, but most evince little desire to be ruled by Quranic diktats.

Five myths about Egypts revolution (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/14/think_again_egypt?page=0,0)

I have seen little else by anything that seems credible.

The people saying "theocracy, booga, booga, booga" invariably know jack shit about Egypt's real political situation and players.

[RandomGuy]

You want me to prove I can google?

(deleted as being a bit more hostile than I would like, sorry I posted it)

[Sec24Row7]

And random I never mentioned the Muslim brotherhood, though I did mention a theocratic/democratic hybrid as a possible eventuality.

[DarrinS]

Five myths about Egypts revolution (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/02/14/think_again_egypt?page=0,0)

I have seen little else by anything that seems credible.

The people saying "theocracy, booga, booga, booga" invariably know jack shit about Egypt's real political situation and players.



Well, Obama's intel chief said that the Muslim Brotherhood was "largely secular", so that's good enough for me.

[RandomGuy]

And random I never mentioned the Muslim brotherhood, though I did mention a theocratic/democratic hybrid as a possible eventuality.

Fair enough.

I would agree that it will be something along those lines. Probably end up as a parlimentary democracy, with some substantial religious influence.

I would think that for minorities either religious or ethnic, it will not be good. New democracies tend to have poor protections in that regard.

This will feed many Western criticisms.

[CosmicCowboy]

Egypt has always kept a separation of church and state and religious/political parties were not allowed.

Abandon that and I guarantee we are going to get a result in Egypt that we don't like.

[RandomGuy]

Egypt has always kept a separation of church and state and religious/political parties were not allowed.

Abandon that and I guarantee we are going to get a result in Egypt that we don't like.

We have to accept the fact that they are grown-ups and can make their own decisions.

Either we can deal with that maturely and responsibly, and with a modicum of respect, or we simply perpetuate the idea that we are an evil imperialist.

Over time, treating someone with some respect tends to blunt the idea that you are evil.

I can live the the short-term costs for the long term gains.

[Sec24Row7]

Translation:

"I can't name three people in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood."

Sure you could google it.

But that would require you to, you know, actually learn about the situation.

I won't hold my breath.

And if I had you would have accused me of googling them... Which is a great politician's trick... But does nothing on this forum where I know 97% of the looney toons here don't even read context before jumping on conservative thought. I'm here because I'm bored, and I'll be gone when you start to bore me more than going back to work. :p:

[Wild Cobra]

Egypt has always kept a separation of church and state and religious/political parties were not allowed.

Abandon that and I guarantee we are going to get a result in Egypt that we don't like.
I agree.

We may not like the leaders in these nations now having protests. I do however fear repeats of Iran and Iraq of the late 70's. Remove the devil you know, and get one worse.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110224/tpl-uk-russia-democracy-warning-43a8d4f.html

Putin warns West on North Africa democracy-building
1 hour 26 mins ago


Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin cautioned the West Thursday that attempts to meddle in the rebellions of the Arab world may sweep extremists to power. Skip related content

"You have to give people the chance to choose their own fates and their own futures," Putin said at a press conference with European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso.

"Give them the opportunity to determine their own fate through natural means and not with any kind of outside interference," he said.

Putin warned that previous attempts to "impose democracy" had fostered Iran's Islamic revolution and triggered election victories for radicals that the West is now fighting to contain.

Russia has long rejected Western criticism of its own democratic credentials and treatment of political opponents.

"Not long ago at all, our partners came out actively for honest democratic elections in the Palestinian territories," Putin said.

With heavy sarcasm, he added: "Wonderful! Well done, lads! And it turns out Hamas wins, the same people you are calling a terrorist organisation and have started to fight against."

Hamas -- which does not recognise Israel and won U.S. and European Union-backed Palestinian Territory elections in 2006 -- seized control of Gaza 18 months later after fighting allies of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

Russia also supported the elections, which were part of a Middle East road map for peace in the region.

Hamas has so far benefited from the wave of anti-government revolt sweeping Arab countries, strengthening its position while Israel and the Palestinian Authority have lost their key Arab ally, former Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.

Putin said Iranian revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini had used the support of the West while living near Paris for a few months before he flew into Tehran in 1979 to lead the revolution that overthrew the Shah.

Russia's top leaders Putin and President Dmitry Medvedev have warned of the dangers of radical Islam gaining a grip in one of the most unstable and oil rich regions of the world.

"Regardless of the calming theories that radical groups coming to power in Northern Africa is unlikely, if it happens it cannot but spread to other areas of the world, including the North Caucasus," Putin said in Brussels.

The Kremlin is struggling to contain an Islamist insurgency in its predominantly Muslim North Caucasus region a decade after Moscow drove separatists from power in the second of two Chechen wars since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Unlike the relatively bloodless revolutions of Tunisia and Egypt, an uprising in Libya has sparked fierce fighting between pro-government forces and rebels. The unrest has driven world oil prices up to around $120 a barrel, stoking concern about the economic recovery.

[Wild Cobra]

Yep...

You all remember Hamas winning in democratic elections...

Think these extremist groups won't use the same political lies to get elected when the honest Egyptian will lose with the truth?

[RandomGuy]

And if I had you would have accused me of googling them... Which is a great politician's trick... But does nothing on this forum where I know 97% of the looney toons here don't even read context before jumping on conservative thought. I'm here because I'm bored, and I'll be gone when you start to bore me more than going back to work. :p:

Honestly:

I can't name three off the top of my head either. Arabic names are hard to remember for me, as with most Westerners.

What I have read of those in charge does lead me to believe that the Brotherhood is not as theocratic as some believe, though.

It was something of an unfair question, but it was intended to make the ultimate point that you should do some reading before really forming an opinion.

I will stand by that, though.

[RandomGuy]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20110224/tpl-uk-russia-democracy-warning-43a8d4f.html

Putin warns West on North Africa democracy-building
1 hour 26 mins ago


Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin cautioned the West Thursday that attempts to meddle in the rebellions of the Arab world may sweep extremists to power.

Because Vladimir is an expert in democracy.

:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

Because Vladimir is an expert in democracy.

:lmao

He's no expert on democracy but he's pretty damn smart and spot on in this case.

[RandomGuy]

The Kremlin is struggling to contain an Islamist insurgency in its predominantly Muslim North Caucasus region a decade after Moscow drove separatists from power in the second of two Chechen wars since the fall of the Soviet Union.

This is, for me, a cautionary tale about what happens when conservative ideas are put into place.

Russia has treated Chechnya with all the violence, torturing of prisoners in interrogations, and killed anybody they possibly can that resists them.

In short, they have done everything that conservatives in this country say we should do in our "war on terror".

In return, they have created a wasteland filled with people who despise them, and a never-ending security threat from suicidal widows.

Chechnya is, for me, the ultimate repudiation of the use of force and torture in the "war on terror". The Russians have been trying to kill their way out of their problem, and trying to do that has pretty much had the opposite effect over time.

[Sec24Row7]

Honestly:

I can't name three off the top of my head either. Arabic names are hard to remember for me, as with most Westerners.

What I have read of those in charge does lead me to believe that the Brotherhood is not as theocratic as some believe, though.

It was something of an unfair question, but it was intended to make the ultimate point that you should do some reading before really forming an opinion.

I will stand by that, though.

I would assume (and yes assumption can be the mother of all fuck ups) that when you grant an al jazeera educated public power, that they are going to carry VERY strong anti-west sentiment.

This may be tempered by their tourism industry... No idea.

[Wild Cobra]

He's no expert on democracy but he's pretty damn smart and spot on in this case.
Some people learn by their mistakes too.

[RandomGuy]

He's no expert on democracy but he's pretty damn smart and spot on in my less than educated opinion on the matter.

FIFY

You are, of course, entitled to an opinion as anyone is.

(shrugs)

We'll see.

I think the biggest danger we face is not supporting Egypt enough, and not treating them like adults who are entitled to *their* opinion.

[RandomGuy]

I would assume (and yes assumption can be the mother of all fuck ups) that when you grant an al jazeera educated public power, that they are going to carry VERY strong anti-west sentiment.

This may be tempered by their tourism industry... No idea.

What tempered their army was the fact that many of the officers under 60 were trained by the US in a long-running exchange program.

That, I think, is one of *the* main factors that kept the military from shooting their own citizens. Their army was infected by our democratic ideals, at the risk of sounding too self-congratulatory.

[Sec24Row7]

What tempered their army was the fact that many of the officers under 60 were trained by the US in a long-running exchange program.

That, I think, is one of *the* main factors that kept the military from shooting their own citizens. Their army was infected by our democratic ideals, at the risk of sounding too self-congratulatory.

I find that hard to believe when you have the history that the graduates of the School of the Americas do...

[LnGrrrR]

That makes a nice excuse.

Why are they mad at Israel?

Obviously because Israel are the good guys, defenders of all that is right, and Iran, being the evil bad guys, just can't stand them.

Do you think that installing dictators friendly to us in foreign countries might possibly lead to ill-will with America, especially when said government is contrary to what the majority of people want?

[ChumpDumper]

When I ask why the US bends over for Israel on the regular, I'm told that it is because they are a democracy in the middle East.

When I ask why did we invade Iraq, I'm told that it is because it will be made into a beacon of democracy in the middle East.

Now I'm being told more democracy in the middle East can only be a bad thing.

[Spurminator]

I'm just checking in to see if this video has been picked up by any semi-legitimate news media.

Y'all keep me posted. Thanks.

[LnGrrrR]

Of course there are negative effects... There are reactions to every action. The problem is... You cannot take using the big stick off the table.

Except you're using the stick on people who haven't actually attacked you. That'd be like walking along the street, and hitting random people with said stick. Then, when locked up, you said, "Well, I had to hit them first, I'm pretty sure they were going to hurt me first." Don't think the courts will buy that one, and neither will the international community.

The last time we tried to use that excuse (Iraq), it didn't pan out so well.

[Yonivore]

Except you're using the stick on people who haven't actually attacked you. That'd be like walking along the street, and hitting random people with said stick. Then, when locked up, you said, "Well, I had to hit them first, I'm pretty sure they were going to hurt me first." Don't think the courts will buy that one, and neither will the international community.

The last time we tried to use that excuse (Iraq), it didn't pan out so well.
You do realize Iraq had been firing on U.S. forces, enforcing the no fly zone, for over a decade...among some other pretty provocative acts. Not exactly a random response.

Analogy fail.

[ChumpDumper]

You do realize Iraq had been firing on U.S. forces, enforcing the no fly zone, for over a decade...among some other pretty provocative acts. Not exactly a random response.

Analogy fail.You do realize Iraq was completely under the thumb of the US and no US personnel died during that time.

Jingo fail.

[LnGrrrR]

You do realize Iraq had been firing on U.S. forces, enforcing the no fly zone, for over a decade...among some other pretty provocative acts. Not exactly a random response.

Analogy fail.

Fair enough. But Egypt has done none of those things, correct?

[RandomGuy]

By the way, Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt


Egypt (i /ˈiːdʒɪpt/; مصر, Miṣr, Arabic: [mesˤɾ]; Egyptian Arabic: [mɑsˤɾ]; Coptic: Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ, Kīmi),
officially the Arab Republic of Egypt

Wanna try that again?

[RandomGuy]

Fair enough. But Egypt has done none of those things, correct?

But, but, they *could*!!

That means that we MUST then invade a country with a population five times larger than Iraq in dense urban areas.

I mean that would surely make all those people who think we are bad love us, right?

:rolleyes

[Marcus Bryant]

Sweet. Another foolish war, underwritten by the PRC.

[boutons_deux]

"You do realize Iraq had been firing on U.S. forces, enforcing the no fly zone"

Yep, 4000 dead US military, 100Ks Iraqis dead/maimed, US taxpayer $2T wasted , yep, don't fuck with the UCA, it will fuck you and itself up extremely nasty.

[RandomGuy]

By the way, Egyptians are not Arabs, they are Egyptians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt


Egypt (i /ˈiːdʒɪpt/; مصر, Miṣr, Arabic: [mesˤɾ]; Egyptian Arabic: [mɑsˤɾ]; Coptic: Ⲭⲏⲙⲓ, Kīmi),
officially the Arab Republic of Egypt

Wanna try that again?

(too classic not to be at the top of the page)

[RandomGuy]

And random I never mentioned the Muslim brotherhood, though I did mention a theocratic/democratic hybrid as a possible eventuality.

Now that I would agree with, until their educational system catches up with the outmoded religious bullshit, and they embrace secularism.

Not much has happened in the year since.

THe military still has its claws in everything.