Who's better? Lamar Odom or Toni Kukoc?

[ezau]

Both are PJ's best players off the bench. Pretty much similar in their game profiles, not to mention being left-handed too.

Though Kukoc is the better playmaker, Odom is the better rebounder. Both guys are extremely versatile. Though far from being franchise-player material, both of them are excellent players for PJ's championship teams.

Kukoc's Career Stats:

11.6 PPG, 4.2 RPG, and 3.7 APG

Odom's Career Stats:

14.6 PPG, 8.9 RPG, and 4.0 APG

[Hemotivo]

Tony was great but Odom is better

[lefty]

I have to go with Toni.

He hit some clutch shots in his career.

Odom hasnt.

Also, Ezau, keep in mind that Kukoc logged 25 minutes/games, while Odom is at 35 minutes per game

[hater]

Odom. most verstile player n a while. He can pretty much play 4 positions

[lefty]

Odom. most verstile player n a while. He can pretty much play 4 positions
Kukoc was as versatile as LO

[Kyle Orton]

Idk how the fuck anyone can say Kukoc. He was a scorer and that's pretty much it. Odom is a great rebounder, great passer and when focused great defender. He's a multi-dimensional player while Kukoc did one thing decent.

[hater]

Kukoc was as versatile as LO

on offense AND defense??

Kukoc could barely guard 1 position decently

[Kyle Orton]

He also wasn't anywhere near as good a rebounder as LO.

[lefty]

on offense AND defense??

Kukoc could barely guard 1 position decently
Because Odom can guard a 5 year old ?

[lefty]

He also wasn't anywhere near as good a rebounder as LO.
Odom is more athletic than Kukoc

But that doesnt mean he is more fundamentally sound

[Kyle Orton]

Huh? Does that do anything to dispute the fact Odom is a WAY better rebounder than Kukoc?

[Killakobe81]

Idk how the fuck anyone can say Kukoc. He was a scorer and that's pretty much it. Odom is a great rebounder, great passer and when focused great defender. He's a multi-dimensional player while Kukoc did one thing decent.

this. Not being biased because TBH Lamar has been one inconsistent MF'er ...
But Kukoc has no defense. Yes he is a better shooter and had better vision. But I would rather have Lamar at everything else: athlete, defense rebounding team-mate, tougher ...

but a good question though based on production ... however talent wise it's lamar and it's not even close.

On a related note, I am not sure I why I dont hate on Lamar as much for not reaching his full potential as I do Shaq ...because TBH Lamar had the potential to be a better ball handling KG type ... and is not even close to KG.

However, I watched Odom play at RI and with the clips he early on showed that he was a bit "flaky" as a player ... Shaq to me had GOAT potential or at least center GOAT and I guess that is why I judge him harder. Not trying to jack this thread but i think our perception of players is greatly shaped by our expectations.

[lefty]

Odom?

Defense?

Are you freaking kidding me?

[Killakobe81]

Odom is no great defender never said that ...but he is a good, versatile defender.

[Killakobe81]

with the Lakers his defense has been inconsistent, but watch how he played under riles on the heat or with TEAM USA ... or even with the Lakers where at times he has locked up Marion (matrix days), Scola (though Scola has had some success too), and Love (the 70 million dollar man)

[Killakobe81]

Also people comparing minutes have to remeber that Kukoc "hung on" at the end of his career battling through injuries I bet his mins. per game was higher in his prime ...he played a smaller role when he first came over to the US and after his best years were done ... in his prime im sure his minutes were similar to LO's ...Odom has been a starter or 6th man for every team he has been on. IF he hangs on past his prime LO's mins. wil go down drastically ...

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Phil Jackson was asked awhile back to name his top 5 "team" from among those he coached, aside from Michael, Scott, Kobe, and Shaq. I believe he answered in this order, someone will have to research it:

Pau Gasol (Lakers)
Ron Harper (Bulls and Lakers)

Not sure of who came next, but...
Dennis Rodman (Bulls)
Tony Kukoc (Bulls)

Can 't remember #5, but I don't think it was Lamar. Probably it was Luke Walton <snicker>

[Phillip]

LO is one of the most talented and versatile players in NBA history. He definitely is a better basketball player.

[Phillip]

The issue with Odom is lack of consistency/motivation. But when he wants to, he can be a lethal scorer, lockdown defender, precise and creative passer, and a rebounding machine.

[lefty]

LO is one of the most talented and versatile players in NBA history. He definitely is a better basketball player.
Not to stir the pot, but what does Odm have that Kukoc doesnt - other than better athleticism?

By the way, Laker fans, it's not a knock on Odom, he is one of my favorite players :tu

Passing: Odom is a good passer, but I have to give the edge to Kuloc
Outside shooting: advantage Kukoc
Ball handling: even
Defense: both inconsistent
Athleticism: advantage Odom
Left-handed: tie (ok, that's irrelevant)
Rebounding: slight advantage Odom
Clutchness: advantage Kuki

[Killakobe81]

The issue with Odom is lack of consistency/motivation. But when he wants to, he can be a lethal scorer, lockdown defender, precise and creative passer, and a rebounding machine.

This. Lamar does less with more but when he wants to can pretty much do anything on the court excapt finish with his right hand and make clutch Ft's ...


Also. Look we all know MJ is arguably the GOAT and the Bulls one of the most popular Teams in NBA history. But the romanticizing of the players around MJ is pretty down right ridiculous ...even of Mj to some extent. Don't get me wrong Pippen was a great two way player but the more time passes the more people falsely elevate him. Especially calling Lebron a Pippen is almost laughable. sure Pip carried a MJless Bulls team to 50+ wins and was a legit MVP candidate but even without rings Pippen has done nothing that Lebron has. Lebron carried a weaker team with an offensively inept coach to teh Finals.
People do the same with rodman. Dude was an amazing rebounder, he was doing what Love is doing despite being smaller and older ...but his best days as a defender were long gone by this time ...and some of the great charges he took were out of the Bosh and Batum book of basketball flopping.

Stop it MOST of the credit for those teams belong to MJ and Phil. Pippen was great player a HOF'er and a borderline top 50 guy ...but some of yalll give him wayyy too much credit. Kukoc too ...

[Killakobe81]

Not to stir the pot, but what does Odm have that Kukoc doesnt - other than better athleticism?

By the way, Laker fans, it's not a knock on Odom, he is one of my favorite players :tu

Passing: Odom is a good passer, but I have to give the edge to Kuloc
Outside shooting: advantage Kukoc
Ball handling: even
Defense: both inconsistent
Athleticism: advantage Odom
Left-handed: tie (ok, that's irrelevant)
Rebounding: slight advantage Odom
Clutchness: advantage Kuki

Kucoc wasn't inconsistent defensively he was inept ...

[Kyle Orton]

Not to stir the pot, but what does Odm have that Kukoc doesnt - other than better athleticism?

By the way, Laker fans, it's not a knock on Odom, he is one of my favorite players :tu

Passing: Odom is a good passer, but I have to give the edge to Kuloc
Outside shooting: advantage Kukoc
Ball handling: even
Defense: both inconsistent
Athleticism: advantage Odom
Left-handed: tie (ok, that's irrelevant)
Rebounding: slight advantage Odom
Clutchness: advantage Kuki

:lmao Odom gets the "slight" advantage in rebounding? He averages more than double the rebounds Kukoc averaged per game.

[Killakobe81]

and rebounding is not a slight edge ... for Odom either ...

[Kyle Orton]

Also how is Kukoc a better passer. Odom often-times runs the point for LA and he averages more assists per game...

[Killakobe81]

Also how is Kukoc a better passer. Odom often-times runs the point for LA and he averages more assists per game...

this one is debateable but I do know many people felt Kukoc had elite level "vision" ...problem is Pippen played that role on the Bulls so to be fair he did not always get to showcase it ...but I agree with KO based on production consider Odom doesnt alwys get to initiate the offens either a case can be made it's pretty even ...but I have no problem with giving Kukoc a "slight" edge ...

[Phillip]

this is lefty we are talking about. perhaps the biggest buttfucker on the forum.

cue in a "what makes you a good poster as opposed to me?????? :cry :cry :cry" post shortly by lefty

[JamStone]

The answer is Odom. However, with that said, I think Toni might have been the more talented player than Odom. Not the athlete Odom is but, Kukoc was extremely talented. And I think Kukoc was underused and miscasted in his NBA career. In his prime, on a different team, in a different system, I think he may have shined much more in the NBA. It would have been interesting to see him in his prime as the main guy on an NBA team instead of having to see him defer so much to Michael and Scottie.

[Phillip]

Kukoc also game into the NBA later in his basketball career if I am correct. there definitely is a case people could make for him, but I personally feel Odom was more talented.

kinda reminds me of Sabonis though. That dude was a monster of talent, but came to the NBA too late to really showcase them at the highest level for the majority of his career. perhaps Kukoc is better than we saw, we just didnt see it because he played with MJ/Pippen, and came into the league late.

[hater]

Of course Kukoc is a more skilled player, but so what? Duncan is more skilled than Griffin, but anyone who picks Duncan over Griffin at this point is a dumb retard.

athleticism, speed, strength and defense all matter. Otherwise Vaginis would be an NBA star right now.

[Donkeybong]

Odom is a better ball handler as well. Kukoc could not go to his right for the life of him.

[JamStone]

Of course Kukoc is a more skilled player, but so what? Duncan is more skilled than Griffin, but anyone who picks Duncan over Griffin at this point is a dumb retard.

athleticism, speed, strength all matter. Otherwise Vaginis would be an NBA star right now.

Yea I think I'd take Odom over Kukoc right now since Toni is over 40 years old... :rolleyes

[ohmwrecker]

Scottie Pippen

[lefty]

Also how is Kukoc a better passer. Odom often-times runs the point for LA and he averages more assists per game...
Again

More mpg for Odom

But Kukoc had a better vision

[lefty]

However, with that said, I think Toni might have been the more talented player than Odom. Not the athlete Odom is but, Kukoc was extremely talented. And I think Kukoc was underused and miscasted in his NBA career. In his prime, on a different team, in a different system, I think he may have shined much more in the NBA. It would have been interesting to see him in his prime as the main guy on an NBA team instead of having to see him defer so much to Michael and Scottie.
:tu

[hater]

Yea I think I'd take Odom over Kukoc right now since Toni is over 40 years old... :rolleyes

Let me help you out son. We are comparing Kukoc vs. Odom in their NBA years.

My example was to point out that you don't just pick the more "skilled" player. In their NBA years Odom is the more athletic, faster, stronger, better defender than Kukoc.

Again. try to keep up.

[Phillip]

Let me help you out son. We are comparing Kukoc vs. Odom in their NBA years.

My example was to point out that you don't just pick the more "skilled" player. In their NBA years Odom is the more athletic, faster, stronger, better defender than Kukoc.

Again. try to keep up.

In Jams initial post, he said Odom is a better player. I think it's you who needs to keep up, dumbass.

[hater]

In Jams initial post, he said Odom is a better player. I think it's you who needs to keep up, dumbass.

I am replying to his idiotic response. dumbass

[Killakobe81]

The answer is Odom. However, with that said, I think Toni might have been the more talented player than Odom. Not the athlete Odom is but, Kukoc was extremely talented. And I think Kukoc was underused and miscasted in his NBA career. In his prime, on a different team, in a different system, I think he may have shined much more in the NBA. It would have been interesting to see him in his prime as the main guy on an NBA team instead of having to see him defer so much to Michael and Scottie.

I agree with most of this. But disagree on talent, which I admit is hard to define. I think Kukoc was more "skilled" ... footwork, abilty to create passing angles etc. but Lamar more talented and not just athletically. Jam is right I think Kukoc was never used to his full capabilities though you can make some of the same case for Lamar. I think though Lamar had a higher "cieling" he just never reached it.

People forget that Lamar was the #1 HS player in the nation coming out of HS ...and his first few years (though I thought people were crazy) drew comaprisons to Magic. In fact I remember a local reporter (L.A.)created some controversy by saying the Lakers should trade Kobe for Odom (during the ego wars) because Odom could potentially score 20 but was a more willing passer and would only get better. That was the "talent and potential" LO has/had.
I think Sonny vaccaro (AAU/ADDidas) HS guru ranked Odom with lebron as some of the greatest HS level talent he ever scouted ...

[Phillip]

I am replying to his idiotic response. dumbass

Your initial response getting asshurt over people claiming that Kukoc was perhaps more skilled than Odom was the only idiotic response here, dumbass. Especially when most people (except that stupid fuck lefty) was saying Odom > Kukoc.

[Killakobe81]

Scout: [email protected]
Lamar Odom is the complete package, he can shoot, handle the ball, and create his own shot. At 6-10 he reminds of Kevin Garnett, but i think he will be even better. He has a touch in clutch situations (Atlantic-10 Tournament) and is one of the most talented players to come into the draft in recent years. Anything less than # 3 would be unacceptable. The Clippers, and Bulls could use him, but Vancouver already has Shareef Abdur-Rahim. My one knock on him is he can't move without the ball. It is not as bad as everyone says, but with some solid coaching he will be the star of the future.

[Killakobe81]

Scout: Jeffrey Burgoyne
Lamar Odom will be one of the top picks in the 99 draft based upon hype alone. Pro scouts were regularily seen at Rhode Island this past year game after game to see this former high school phenom in action. If the scouts thought he wouldn't live up to the hype, however, they would not have kept coming.
What Odom will bring to the court game in and out is versatility. [B]While comparisons to Magic Johnson are completely unfair, its not hard to imagine Odom playing the point or center in the NBA, although its unlikely he will play any position other than SF. He has the court sense and vision of a player several years his senior, and is a solid passer and ball handler, especially for someone his size. At times last year he seemed to be at a different level than his competition (and teammates) but did not overextend himself trying to do it all himself.

He also plays tough underneath and will get his share of blocks and boards. If I had to compare him to any current NBA player I'd have to liken him to Danny Manning. I think Odom will be a better player (injuries aside in Mannings case) as he will not be expected to play center and PF day in and out. He also hasn't shown the range yet to be considered a SG candidate, nor the will to take a lot of shots to be a devestating offensive force.

at thgis time Manning was an all-star but injuries had already started to take hold ...

[lefty]

Your initial response getting asshurt over people claiming that Kukoc was perhaps more skilled than Odom was the only idiotic response here, dumbass. Especially when most people (except that stupid fuck lefty) was saying Odom > Kukoc.
lol butthurt

[ohmwrecker]

lol better than Garnett

[hater]

Kukoc was perhaps more skilled than Odom

correct :tu

[lefty]

kukoc was perhaps more skilled than odom.
+2

[hater]

lol butthurt

Phillip once again lowering the bar

[JamStone]

Let me help you out son. We are comparing Kukoc vs. Odom in their NBA years.

My example was to point out that you don't just pick the more "skilled" player. In their NBA years Odom is the more athletic, faster, stronger, better defender than Kukoc.

Again. try to keep up.

Which is why your example of taking Griffin over Duncan "right now" doesn't make sense. Shawn Marion is more athlete, faster, stronger, and a better defender than Larry Bird. Oh the dilemma you face...

[Phillip]

:cry :cry :cry

[hater]

Which is why your example of taking Griffin over Duncan "right now" doesn't make sense. Shawn Marion is more athlete, faster, stronger, and a better defender than Larry Bird. Oh the dilemma you face...

Again. I am not saying you always pick the better athlete. You consider both, skill and athleticism. Both. Not one.

When both considered Odom > Kukoc just like Griffin > old Duncan.

[Killakobe81]

Scout: [email protected]
Lamar Odom is the complete package, he can shoot, handle the ball, and create his own shot. At 6-10 he reminds of Kevin Garnett, but i think he will be even better. He has a touch in clutch situations (Atlantic-10 Tournament) and is one of the most talented players to come into the draft in recent years. Anything less than # 3 would be unacceptable. The Clippers, and Bulls could use him, but Vancouver already has Shareef Abdur-Rahim. My one knock on him is he can't move without the ball. It is not as bad as everyone says, but with some solid coaching he will be the star of the future.

LOL dude thought he would be better than KG ...but that is how much talent Odom was thought to have ...

[JamStone]

I agree with most of this. But disagree on talent, which I admit is hard to define. I think Kukoc was more "skilled" ... footwork, abilty to create passing angles etc. but Lamar more talented and not just athletically. Jam is right I think Kukoc was never used to his full capabilities though you can make some of the same case for Lamar. I think though Lamar had a higher "cieling" he just never reached it.

People forget that Lamar was the #1 HS player in the nation coming out of HS ...and his first few years (though I thought people were crazy) drew comaprisons to Magic. In fact I remember a local reporter (L.A.)created some controversy by saying the Lakers should trade Kobe for Odom (during the ego wars) because Odom could potentially score 20 but was a more willing passer and would only get better. That was the "talent and potential" LO has/had.
I think Sonny vaccaro (AAU/ADDidas) HS guru ranked Odom with lebron as some of the greatest HS level talent he ever scouted ...

If you're going to talk about how Lamar Odom was viewed as a high school player and out of college, you probably should take a look at Kukoc's international career prior to joining the Bulls. He was considered the European version of Magic Johnson. He dominated the Euroleague like Jordan dominated the NBA. 3 time Euroleague Final Four MVPs, FIBA World Championship MVP, European Championship MVP, 2 time Euroscar Player of the Year, an Italian Championship and Italian Cup winner, 2 Olympic silver medals, 1 World Championship gold medal, 2 European World Championship gold medals... all by the age of 25. The guy had a better international resume than Manu Ginobili. And we all know how Ginobili's international career is revered.

Kukoc was a full on beast. He was a 6'11 small forward (just like Odom) except in an era where most small forwards were 6'7. His vision has been talked upon but not enough. He averaged about 4 assists a game during that second Bulls championship threepeat. And think about that with how limited his facilitating touches were on those Bulls teams with Michael and Scottie and he did it in under 30 minutes a game. He had phenomenal vision and passing ability, and never got to fully showcase it. Odom is a better dribbler. Someone already noted how Toni couldn't really dribble with his right hand. But as a passer and playmaker, Kukoc was great.

[JamStone]

Again. I am not saying you always pick the better athlete. You consider both, skill and athleticism. Both. Not one.

When both considered Odom > Kukoc just like Griffin > old Duncan.

Your comparison is faulty because as you already noted, with Odom and Kukoc you're comparing careers while your analogy is comparing Blake Griffin now to Duncan now.

How about a 25 year old Duncan? Blake Griffin is still faster, stronger, more athletic. Who do you take? Blake Griffin or a 25 year old Tim Duncan?

[tlongII]

Lamar Odom is clearly a better player. However, I voted for Toni Kukoc.

[dunkman]

Unfortunately, Odom got clipperized during his first four seasons. Anyway, he's way better player than Kukoc ever was. Kukoc was more like Hedo, except that Hedo plays good defense and is a legit PF.

[JamStone]

A lot of Spurs fans talk about how Manu Ginobili will be a HOFer because of his international resume. I think now that Toni Kukoc is eligible (the end of this current season makes it five years of retirement for Kukoc, the waiting period for the HOF), it will be very interesting to see if he gets in and it might give some insight on Ginobili's chances of getting into the HOF.

[JamStone]

Unfortunately, Odom got clipperized during his first four seasons. Anyway, he's way better player than Kukoc ever was. Kukoc was more like Hedo, except that Hedo plays good defense and is a legit PF.

:rollin

[lefty]

:rollin
+1 :lol

[Phillip]

oh my

hedo

defense?

PF?

rofl

[dunkman]

Hedo typically played SF during his career (he was SG for the Spurs), but the point is he can really play PF, Kukoc didn't look good at PF. Hedo has some foot speed, I remember him guarding Kobe decently at some point. He's much better defensive player than Kukoc.

On the other hand, Kukoc had a great career in Europe winning 3 consecutive Euro championships.

[JamStone]

Calling Hedo a legit PF is like calling Kobe a legit pass first PG

[dunkman]

Keep in mind that Odom, Kukoc and Hedo can play PG, SG, SF and PF. The point is how.

While Kobe handles the rock quite well, he plays SG and SF only.

[JamStone]

Hedo is a trainwreck at PF. Being played at a position doesn't make a player legit at it. Kobe is capable of playing point guard. He has the skills and talent to play PG. And in the triangle offense, for all intents and purposes, Kobe does play PG as the main facilitator. Check out who has led the Lakers in assists for most of Kobe's career. But Kobe will never be mistaken for a "pass first" PG, that's why I included that specficially. Hedo does not look good playing PF unless he's matched up against another SF/PF combo/hybrid guy. Odom can actually play PF. Hedo can't. A team can play him at PF. Doesn't mean he's playing that position well.

[Muser]

Hedo is dogshit at either position.

[Kyle Orton]

Again

More mpg for Odom

Rofl the classic Spurfan "his per minute numbers were better :cry" argument

[Pelicans78]

Kukoc was probably better offensively, but Odom was much better defensively and all-around player.

[Killakobe81]

If you're going to talk about how Lamar Odom was viewed as a high school player and out of college, you probably should take a look at Kukoc's international career prior to joining the Bulls. He was considered the European version of Magic Johnson. He dominated the Euroleague like Jordan dominated the NBA. 3 time Euroleague Final Four MVPs, FIBA World Championship MVP, European Championship MVP, 2 time Euroscar Player of the Year, an Italian Championship and Italian Cup winner, 2 Olympic silver medals, 1 World Championship gold medal, 2 European World Championship gold medals... all by the age of 25. The guy had a better international resume than Manu Ginobili. And we all know how Ginobili's international career is revered.

Kukoc was a full on beast. He was a 6'11 small forward (just like Odom) except in an era where most small forwards were 6'7. His vision has been talked upon but not enough. He averaged about 4 assists a game during that second Bulls championship threepeat. And think about that with how limited his facilitating touches were on those Bulls teams with Michael and Scottie and he did it in under 30 minutes a game. He had phenomenal vision and passing ability, and never got to fully showcase it. Odom is a better dribbler. Someone already noted how Toni couldn't really dribble with his right hand. But as a passer and playmaker, Kukoc was great.

I dont disagree with most of this. Problem is most of us did not see it. Again Euro ball now is much better than it was back then. I am not saying it was not legit .. the numbers he put up or the skills he displayed. My point was that I would argue that the #1 HS player in almost any typical year in the US has a lot more talent and potential than the best player in europe. If we look at the best Eurpean players ... outside of Sabonis who would you put over the top US high schol player at the same age? Outside of Europe? Yao and Sabonis maybe? even Dirk and Pau would not get that kind of consideration.
The top HS players of the past 15 years: LBJ, Durant, Rose, KG, Kobe, almost all had more talent and potential than kukoc and that includes Odom. the problem is many of them : Oden, Lamar (to some degree) OJ Mayo fail to fully realize that talent. My point was that Lamar in the NBA and as far as talent potential to me was superior to Kukoc. I stand by that. I don't discount what he did in europe because I saw him play in international world's/Olympics and he was pretty damn good. But Odom was blessed with or developed many of the same skills with better athleticism and became the top HS player in the nation with more elite players than any country in the world.

And I know this makes me sound like a flag waving douche to some extent, but I stand by my point ... LOL.

[Kyle Orton]

I'm curious how 11.6 PPG on 44.7% shooting is better than 14.6 PPG on 46.9% shooting. Not just saying that too Hornets78, there seems to be a consensus in this thread that Kukoc was better offensively and I'm not exactly sure why.

[Venti Quattro]

Kukoc was as versatile as LO

Lefty trying to make everyone laugh. Real good one-liner!!! :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

[Killakobe81]

Hedo is a trainwreck at PF. Being played at a position doesn't make a player legit at it. Kobe is capable of playing point guard. He has the skills and talent to play PG. And in the triangle offense, for all intents and purposes, Kobe does play PG as the main facilitator. Check out who has led the Lakers in assists for most of Kobe's career. But Kobe will never be mistaken for a "pass first" PG, that's why I included that specficially. Hedo does not look good playing PF unless he's matched up against another SF/PF combo/hybrid guy. Odom can actually play PF. Hedo can't. A team can play him at PF. Doesn't mean he's playing that position well.

agree. hedo is best when he uses his size on SF's on offense to see and shoot over his foes. and when he can use his length to distract shooters ...

[Kyle Orton]

OMG Lefty is soooooooo funny :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Venti Quattro]

The only thing really that I can see Toni having an advantage over Lamar is three-point shooting. And probably hitting clutch shots.

The other stuff are open for debate.

[xellos88330]

I am gonna go with Odom on this one. Kukoc was great and all, but Odom seems too do more on the defensive side of the ball. He can affect the game on both sides of the floor.

[Pelicans78]

I dont disagree with most of this. Problem is most of us did not see it. Again Euro ball now is much better than it was back then. I am not saying it was not legit .. the numbers he put up or the skills he displayed. My point was that I would argue that the #1 HS player in almost any typical year in the US has a lot more talent and potential than the best player in europe. If we look at the best Eurpean players ... outside of Sabonis who would you put over the top US high schol player at the same age? Outside of Europe? Yao and Sabonis maybe? even Dirk and Pau would not get that kind of consideration.
The top HS players of the past 15 years: LBJ, Durant, Rose, KG, Kobe, almost all had more talent and potential than kukoc and that includes Odom. the problem is many of them : Oden, Lamar (to some degree) OJ Mayo fail to fully realize that talent. My point was that Lamar in the NBA and as far as talent potential to me was superior to Kukoc. I stand by that. I don't discount what he did in europe because I saw him play in international world's/Olympics and he was pretty damn good. But Odom was blessed with or developed many of the same skills with better athleticism and became the top HS player in the nation with more elite players than any country in the world.

And I know this makes me sound like a flag waving douche to some extent, but I stand by my point ... LOL.

I think Dirk was an exception as well. He was clearly better than any US high schooler the year he came out. He dominated the Hoops Summit game, but the US class wasn't that great anyway. I believe it was the class of Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis.

[lefty]

Rofl the classic Spurfan "his per minute numbers were better :cry" argument
Lol at YOUR arguments :lol

[lefty]

Lefty trying to make everyone laugh. Real good one-liner!!! :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao
lol biased Laker fan

[Kyle Orton]

Lol at YOUR arguments :lol
lol at saying 8.9 RPG has a "slight edge" on 4.2 RPG

[Venti Quattro]

lol biased Laker fan

Another lefty classic! :lmao :rollin :rollin :lmao :rollin :rollin :lmao

[lefty]

lol at saying 8.9 RPG has a "slight edge" on 4.2 RPG
More minutes per game
More athletic
That's why I don't Odom has a HUGE edge over Toni

[Pelicans78]

I'm curious how 11.6 PPG on 44.7% shooting is better than 14.6 PPG on 46.9% shooting. Not just saying that too Hornets78, there seems to be a consensus in this thread that Kukoc was better offensively and I'm not exactly sure why.

I guess from recollection. Maybe Kukoc has more polished moves? Maybe not. But also Kukoc played in the 90s which was more skewed toward defense even though the 3-point line was less distance. Odom has basically been a guy who drives to the basket or shoots an open jumper. Not alot of moves in his arsenal. He just has the role player mentality. Never good enough to be the 2nd option on a great team. Not saying Kukoc could either, but it seems that he may have had more polish in his game offensively just by watching. I guess the numbers point otherwise.

[lefty]

Another lefty classic! :lmao :rollin :rollin :lmao :rollin :rollin
OMG Venti Quattro, your one-liners are killing me !! :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:rollin:rollin:rollin:rol lin:rollin
lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololololololololololololololololololololol

[lefty]

I guess from recollection. Maybe Kukoc has more polished moves? Maybe not. But also Kukoc played in the 90s which was more skewed toward defense even though the 3-point line was less distance. Odom has basically been a guy who drives to the basket or shoots an open jumper. Not alot of moves in his arsenal. He just has the role player mentality. Never good enough to be the 2nd option on a great team. Not saying Kukoc could either, but it seems that he may have had more polish in his game offensively just by watching. I guess the numbers point otherwise.
:tu
Amen

[Kyle Orton]

More minutes per game
More athletic
That's why I don't Odom has a HUGE edge over Toni
Being athletic is part of being a basketball player. Being able to play more minutes is part of being a basketball player. Do the rebounds Odom gets because of his athleticism not count?

[lefty]

Being athletic is part of being a basketball player. Being able to play more minutes is part of being a basketball player. Do the rebounds Odom gets because of his athleticism not count?
Of course they count

But its not Kukoc's fault if he wasnt as athletic
Not sure if athleticism is a skill

[Kyle Orton]

Of course they count

But its not Kukoc's fault if he wasnt as athletic
Not sure if athleticism is a skill
What the fuck? Whether or not it's Kukoc's fault doesn't change the fact Odom's athleticism makes him a WAY better rebounder. The question is who is the better player, not who did more to maximize his game.

[lefty]

What the fuck? Whether or not it's Kukoc's fault doesn't change the fact Odom's athleticism makes him a WAY better rebounder. The question is who is the better player, not who did more to maximize his game.
OK ok, I give up :lol

[Venti Quattro]

Odom has had more potential because he entered the NBA at a young age while Kukoc entered at an older age, where some things are there for you to just accept. However, that's not reason for us not to say that Odom is more versatile than Kukoc because you can put Odom from 1-4, and 5 in a small lineup. Can you imaging trying to play Kukoc at 1 or 2? God that would be a disaster. So lefty pay attention and stop trying to blurt out funny liners. Kukoc will never be as agile, athletic and versatile as Odom. I'm not biased here, you just probably didn't have any TV sets in Algeria or wherever the fuck you were during the time when Kukoc graced the NBA court.

In terms of who is better, I'd pick Odom but I'd bring a screw driver because it comes handy dandy when his screws are loosened when playing. He can do a lot of things for my team aside from three point shooting

[Pelicans78]

I do think Odom is a better player, but he never lived up to his potential.

[Venti Quattro]

I do think Odom is a better player, but he never lived up to his potential.

It's so well-documented how he's a rollercoaster during a season. But I'd still pick him over Kukoc.

[Kyle Orton]

I do think Odom is a better player, but he never lived up to his potential.
Yes I agree. Odom at 60% of his potential >>> Kukoc at 100% of his potential

[lefty]

Yes I agree. Odom at 60% of his potential >>> Kukoc at 100% of his potential
Ok, let's say Odom is better, but let's not carried away

[Axe Murderer]

More minutes per game
More athletic
That's why I don't Odom has a HUGE edge over Toni

first of all, you sound like the guy who shot john lennon with all this "he is my leader" bullshit. how old are you?

second of all, is the "siccophants" thing all you got? i have misspelled easier words than that and very while might do so in the future, so keep looking out for that so you can crush me even harder. i am very sensitive about such personal matters as my ability to correctly spell SAT-vocab words on the fly. ...that stuff ain't just lame message board shit talking, it really hits home (on top of being really, really, funny!)

thats all for now,
pussyface.

ps: who would you rather get fucked by, gordon keith on ktck or leo dicaprio in 'titanic'?

[Venti Quattro]

Yes I agree. Odom at 60% of his potential >>> Kukoc at 100% of his potential

That's reaching brah but yeah the premise that Odom is better than Kukoc is still true.

[hater]

Your comparison is faulty because as you already noted, with Odom and Kukoc you're comparing careers while your analogy is comparing Blake Griffin now to Duncan now.

How about a 25 year old Duncan? Blake Griffin is still faster, stronger, more athletic. Who do you take? Blake Griffin or a 25 year old Tim Duncan?

with odom + kukoc we are obviously comparing their prime time in the NBA. With Duncan + Blake I am only considering this season. Is it so hard to comprehend that for you? Sorry I made your head hurt, just carry on... :rolleyes

[Chillen]

I am going with Kukoc, but obviously Odom is a better defender and a little more athletic. Kukoc though was incredibly smart and talented and an amazing 3 point shooter and ball handler, passer in at near 7 feet tall and his international accomplishments give him the edge over Odom. I think he should be a future HOF he helped the Bulls win 3 NBA titles and 72 games and his international accomplishments with the NBA should be enough to seal it.


(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P7jeR3PRO0)

[lefty]

:sleep

[Axe Murderer]

.

Does anyone else remember this inferior form of bullshit he was spouting at a press conference following one of the Suns recent playoff eliminations?

He got all sentimental and irrational, and attributed the consistent inability of his squad to get over the hump to mere coincidence, rather than the shortcomings of his team. He insisted a title was imminent (sp?) and none of the Suns apologists raised an eyebrow because they thought he was just being a nice guy or something.

I remember his unbelievably irrational reasoning for being certain a championship was en route was "we've got guys here with hearts the size of Phoenix." (pure sentamental trype)

This was something I laughed my ass off at as a non Suns fan, and really goes towards a shortcoming Dantoni has as a leader.

...I wonder if Suns fans will agree with me on this now that the honeymoon phase is over with Mikey Dan.

[JamStone]

I dont disagree with most of this. Problem is most of us did not see it. Again Euro ball now is much better than it was back then. I am not saying it was not legit .. the numbers he put up or the skills he displayed. My point was that I would argue that the #1 HS player in almost any typical year in the US has a lot more talent and potential than the best player in europe. If we look at the best Eurpean players ... outside of Sabonis who would you put over the top US high schol player at the same age? Outside of Europe? Yao and Sabonis maybe? even Dirk and Pau would not get that kind of consideration.
The top HS players of the past 15 years: LBJ, Durant, Rose, KG, Kobe, almost all had more talent and potential than kukoc and that includes Odom. the problem is many of them : Oden, Lamar (to some degree) OJ Mayo fail to fully realize that talent. My point was that Lamar in the NBA and as far as talent potential to me was superior to Kukoc. I stand by that. I don't discount what he did in europe because I saw him play in international world's/Olympics and he was pretty damn good. But Odom was blessed with or developed many of the same skills with better athleticism and became the top HS player in the nation with more elite players than any country in the world.

And I know this makes me sound like a flag waving douche to some extent, but I stand by my point ... LOL.

Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Dejan Bodiroga, Dimitri Diamantidis, Peja Stojakovic, and now Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA), to name a few. You can handpick the Kobes and LeBrons and Durants. But you also leave out Kwame Brown, Donnell Harvey, Dajuan Wagner, Louis Williams, Lavell Blancard, Kelvin Torbert, Randy Livingston, all either Naismith players of the year or Gatorade players of the year in their respective senior high school classes, with the exception of Kwame who was obviously a #1 overall pick in the NBA.

It's easy to pick out LeBron and Kobe. Just like I can pick out Dirk and Pau. The caliber of Euroleague has improved since Kukoc was there. But what Kukoc accomplished as a young Euroleague player is still without a doubt impressive. If you're going to use scouting reports of Lamar Odom out of high school and one year at Rhode Island, I think it's fair to look at what Toni did in Euroleague.

For me, Odom is the better athlete, he has had better production in the NBA, and he probably has a higher ceiling than what a 25 year old Toni Kukoc had. But Odom has never reached his full potential and that's mostly on him. As an NBA player, I don't think Toni reached his full potential either, but I think it was more of a product of his situation, the NBA team he landed on, the offense it ran, and particularly two of the teammates he played with in Jordan and Pippen. When Jordan and Pippen left, Toni was already 30 years old. He put up 19/7/5 that season. Then he became a journeyman. I still would have liked to see him have more of a chance to be "the guy" on a team a few years earlier. There was no Jordan his rookie year, but it was still his rookie year in the NBA. Then he had to take a backseat to Jordan and Pippen the next 4 seasons.

As for who is better offensively. It's arguable. Kukoc was the better shooter and at least for me the better passer/playmaker. Odom has different advantages on offense based on his skills. Better at driving to the basket and finishing, a much better offensive rebounder, better one-on-one player in isolation. If you look at each of their true shooting %, they're very comparable with a slight edge to Odom. Kukoc was more of a jumpshooter obviously. But it's more of a toss-up depending on what you look at as to who was better offensively. Even during that Bulls second threepeat, Kukoc's assist percentage was somewhere around 23-24% being a third banana on that team. Odom is also a third playmaker to Kobe and Pau, but I think he gets more touches than Toni got. And since the Lakers acquired Pau, Odom has an assist percentage of around 13-15%. I do think Toni was the better passer and maximized his touches when it came to creating for teammates.

[JamStone]

with odom + kukoc we are obviously comparing their prime time in the NBA. With Duncan + Blake I am only considering this season. Is it so hard to comprehend that for you? Sorry I made your head hurt, just carry on... :rolleyes

:lol why can't you just accept you made father poor comparison?

[Kyle Orton]

Does anyone else remember this inferior form of bullshit he was spouting at a press conference following one of the Suns recent playoff eliminations?

He got all sentimental and irrational, and attributed the consistent inability of his squad to get over the hump to mere coincidence, rather than the shortcomings of his team. He insisted a title was imminent (sp?) and none of the Suns apologists raised an eyebrow because they thought he was just being a nice guy or something.

I remember his unbelievably irrational reasoning for being certain a championship was en route was "we've got guys here with hearts the size of Phoenix." (pure sentamental trype)

This was something I laughed my ass off at as a non Suns fan, and really goes towards a shortcoming Dantoni has as a leader.

...I wonder if Suns fans will agree with me on this now that the honeymoon phase is over with Mikey Dan.


It's funny how pussyface was dead on about this

[Venti Quattro]

Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA)

Bright future? He screams NBA scrub and it has been that way since day 1.

[hater]

:lol why can't you just accept you made father poor comparison?

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

[Venti Quattro]

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

Shit, I would love to put in a troll response to your question, but it's clear that this is specifically addressed to JamStone.

[Phillip]

goddamn hater is fucking retarded.

the comparison presented by the OP is between two players at their best. not one as a rookie and one who is at the end of his career.

[Phillip]

Shit, I would love to put in a troll response to your question, but it's clear that this is specifically addressed to JamStone.

put one in anyway. hater is starting to borderline lefty stupidity in this thread.

[hater]

I raise the bar

[lefty]

Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Dejan Bodiroga, Dimitri Diamantidis, Peja Stojakovic, and now Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA), to name a few. You can handpick the Kobes and LeBrons and Durants. But you also leave out Kwame Brown, Donnell Harvey, Dajuan Wagner, Louis Williams, Lavell Blancard, Kelvin Torbert, Randy Livingston, all either Naismith players of the year or Gatorade players of the year in their respective senior high school classes, with the exception of Kwame who was obviously a #1 overall pick in the NBA.

It's easy to pick out LeBron and Kobe. Just like I can pick out Dirk and Pau. The caliber of Euroleague has improved since Kukoc was there. But what Kukoc accomplished as a young Euroleague player is still without a doubt impressive. If you're going to use scouting reports of Lamar Odom out of high school and one year at Rhode Island, I think it's fair to look at what Toni did in Euroleague.

For me, Odom is the better athlete, he has had better production in the NBA, and he probably has a higher ceiling than what a 25 year old Toni Kukoc had. But Odom has never reached his full potential and that's mostly on him. As an NBA player, I don't think Toni reached his full potential either, but I think it was more of a product of his situation, the NBA team he landed on, the offense it ran, and particularly two of the teammates he played with in Jordan and Pippen. When Jordan and Pippen left, Toni was already 30 years old. He put up 19/7/5 that season. Then he became a journeyman. I still would have liked to see him have more of a chance to be "the guy" on a team a few years earlier. There was no Jordan his rookie year, but it was still his rookie year in the NBA. Then he had to take a backseat to Jordan and Pippen the next 4 seasons.

As for who is better offensively. It's arguable. Kukoc was the better shooter and at least for me the better passer/playmaker. Odom has different advantages on offense based on his skills. Better at driving to the basket and finishing, a much better offensive rebounder, better one-on-one player in isolation. If you look at each of their true shooting %, they're very comparable with a slight edge to Odom. Kukoc was more of a jumpshooter obviously. But it's more of a toss-up depending on what you look at as to who was better offensively. Even during that Bulls second threepeat, Kukoc's assist percentage was somewhere around 23-24% being a third banana on that team. Odom is also a third playmaker to Kobe and Pau, but I think he gets more touches than Toni got. And since the Lakers acquired Pau, Odom has an assist percentage of around 13-15%. I do think Toni was the better passer and maximized his touches when it came to creating for teammates.
:worthy:

[Phillip]

I lower the bar.

[JamStone]

I will if you can answer me this question. Who's better this year Duncan or Blake and why?

Blake Griffin is better because Duncan has gotten older and isn't as good as he used to be.

So now you admit you mad ea really poor comparison?

[JamStone]

Here we go. I'll take a good three year sample size of both Toni Kukoc's career and Lamar Odom's career in their respective primes. Kukoc from 1995-1996 to 1997-98 during the Bulls second threepeat and the last three seasons, including this one, for Odom on the Lakers. I included this season and not 2007-08 because it wasn't a full year of Pau Gasol and quite frankly it helps Odom out because he's having arguably his best season as a Laker and a better year than 2007-08.

Both role players on multiple championship teams. Toni was a couple years younger than Odom during this stretch. Here's a stats comparison, regular season, not playoffs. I added the two most used and cited advance stats as well.

Toni Kukoc
212 games
28.1 MPG
13.2 PPG
4.3 RPG
4.0 APG
47.2% FG
37.0% 3PT
TS%: .557
PER: 19.3

Lamar Odom
222 games
31.2 MPG
12.0 PPG
9.0 RPG
2.9 APG
49.8% FG
33.9% 3PT
TS%: .556
PER: 17.3

[Killakobe81]

I think Dirk was an exception as well. He was clearly better than any US high schooler the year he came out. He dominated the Hoops Summit game, but the US class wasn't that great anyway. I believe it was the class of Al Harrington and Rashard Lewis.

I thought about including Dirk but wasnt sure how well he played at that age TBH ...I remeber reading the hoop summitt that he was pretty good. But did not remember either who was the top HS player ... but eventhen when you talk about potential talent who knew Dirk would be THAT good? he was traded for Tractor Traylor for chist sakes ...so I bet some folks thought his ceiling wa snot THAT high ...

[hater]

Blake Griffin is better because Duncan has gotten older and isn't as good as he used to be.

So now you admit you mad ea really poor comparison?

so you are saying Blake is a better passer, low post player, playmaker, ball handler, defender and shooter than Duncan at this point?

[JamStone]

I answered your question and why. So just accept and admit that you made a really poor comparison. You said you would after I answered your question and why.

[hater]

I answered your question and why. So just accept and admit that you made a really poor comparison. You said you would after I answered your question and why.

not quite. I am still trying to figure out in what aspects is Blake better than Duncan in your mind?

[namlook]

Also how is Kukoc a better passer. Odom often-times runs the point for LA and he averages more assists per game...

Kucok was the better passer. If you saw them both play you would not question this.

And if you look at the production Kukoc averaged more assists per minute played than Odom.

[JamStone]

You asked who was a better player this season. I told you Blake. I told you why, because Duncan is older and is not the same player he used to be.

A player doesn't have to be better at every aspect of basketball in order to be better than another player. Blake is a more dominant and more productive player at this stage in his career than Duncan is at this stage in his career. Blake is a more prolific scorer and impacts the game more on offense. Quite frankly, I don't think Blake is much of a defender yet and I haven't watched enough of his games to make an educated evaluation. But Blake has more impact on offense than Duncan has. He scores much more, I think he's a more productive passer, but that's partly due to opportunity. Duncan has always been a good passer for a big man but now he doesn't get as many touches and the Spurs are more uptempo more.

Blake is better because of impact and production. It's not that he's more skilled. And quite frankly, it's not because he's bigger, faster, stronger than Duncan. It's that he plays a lot more minutes, gets a lot more touches, and he does well with those minutes and opportunities. Like I said, it's because Duncan is older and not what he used to be. It's not about breaking down every aspect of basketball that either is better than the other.

[lefty]

5 pages :lmao

[hater]

Blake's advantage over Duncan has nothing to do with the fact that Blake is stronger, bigger and faster??

Blake is a better passer than Duncan????

Blake is better because he gets more minutes? So if both players play the same minutes your opinion would change?

That was a weak mumbo jumbo right there. :sleep

[Phillip]

ater, with the bads

[mardigan]

You asked who was a better player this season. I told you Blake. I told you why, because Duncan is older and is not the same player he used to be.

A player doesn't have to be better at every aspect of basketball in order to be better than another player. Blake is a more dominant and more productive player at this stage in his career than Duncan is at this stage in his career. Blake is a more prolific scorer and impacts the game more on offense. Quite frankly, I don't think Blake is much of a defender yet and I haven't watched enough of his games to make an educated evaluation. But Blake has more impact on offense than Duncan has. He scores much more, I think he's a more productive passer, but that's partly due to opportunity. Duncan has always been a good passer for a big man but now he doesn't get as many touches and the Spurs are more uptempo more.

Blake is better because of impact and production. It's not that he's more skilled. And quite frankly, it's not because he's bigger, faster, stronger than Duncan. It's that he plays a lot more minutes, gets a lot more touches, and he does well with those minutes and opportunities. Like I said, it's because Duncan is older and not what he used to be. It's not about breaking down every aspect of basketball that either is better than the other.

Just let it go Jam, he's not going to get it haha.
Question, which of these players would you rather have take a big shot?

[Killakobe81]

Just let it go Jam, he's not going to get it haha.
Question, which of these players would you rather have take a big shot?

If you mean original two (odom/Kukoc) I would say Toni but Odom has been more clutch the past few seasons than he has ever been in his career ...

As for Duncan vs. Blake that is not even a question that warrants answering ...Blake's next "big" shot will be his first ...

[IronMexican]

I'm going Kukoc. The fact that Kobe won with a player like Odom only further solidifies his position as the GOAT.

[cheguevara]

I really can't say who was more consistent. Kukoc was more like a supporting cast, always the bridesmain never the groom in the NBA. Odom had his chances to be a leading player and failed.

I'd say at their best, Odom is more lethal because of the versatility and athleticism. But Kukoc really never had a chance to blossom in the NBA. Too little too late.

[JamStone]

Odom has put up better post seasons than Kukoc did. Kukoc had some pretty poor playoffs in that Bulls threepeat. But some of Lamar's playoff stats are "fake" good. Look at the 2008 NBA Finals for example where Odom actually put up good stats, but most people acknowledge he played like a pussy against the Celtics while putting up pretty good numbers. And let's not forget that as recent as the previous season or two, people often called Lamar "Odumb,"Laker fans included. I think this season has been somewhat of a renaissance for Odom. He's played great. He's seemingly improved in every part of his game, became a better three point shooter and much more efficient.

As for who would I take for a big shot, I think it depends. Kukoc is the better jumpshooter, three point shooter, free throw shooter. If I needed someone to make a three pointer or clutch free throws, I think the answer is easily Kukoc. But down one or two points, I'd rather put the ball in Lamar's hands because he has better one-on-one ability and get to the basket better and finish. The problem would be if he gets fouled at the rim and he has to make free throws to tie or win.

[lefty]

Odom has put up better post seasons than Kukoc did. Kukoc had some pretty poor playoffs in that Bulls threepeat. But some of Lamar's playoff stats are "fake" good. Look at the 2008 NBA Finals for example where Odom actually put up good stats, but most people acknowledge he played like a pussy against the Celtics while putting up pretty good numbers. And let's not forget that as recent as the previous season or two, people often called Lamar "Odumb,"Laker fans included. I think this season has been somewhat of a renaissance for Odom. He's played great. He's seemingly improved in every part of his game, became a better three point shooter and much more efficient.

As for who would I take for a big shot, I think it depends. Kukoc is the better jumpshooter, three point shooter, free throw shooter. If I needed someone to make a three pointer or clutch free throws, I think the answer is easily Kukoc. But down one or two points, I'd rather put the ball in Lamar's hands because he has better one-on-one ability and get to the basket better and finish. The problem would be if he gets fouled at the rim and he has to make free throws to tie or win.

Kukoc made some big game winning shots down with his team down by 1-2 point several times, including the famous one vs the Knicks in the 94 playoffs

I also remember that regular season game (1996-1997) vs the Lakers; the Bulls where getting blown out, and Kukoc sparked a comeback win.
He was a big time shooter

[Cessation]

if you've seen both play, its obviously, kukoc > odom

[ezau]

I have to go with Toni.

He hit some clutch shots in his career.

Odom hasnt.

Also, Ezau, keep in mind that Kukoc logged 25 minutes/games, while Odom is at 35 minutes per game

Good point Lefty. :toast

[LakeShow]

Dirk Nowitzki, Pau Gasol, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Dejan Bodiroga, Dimitri Diamantidis, Peja Stojakovic, and now Ricky Rubio (who many have felt has a bright future in the NBA), to name a few. You can handpick the Kobes and LeBrons and Durants. But you also leave out Kwame Brown, Donnell Harvey, Dajuan Wagner, Louis Williams, Lavell Blancard, Kelvin Torbert, Randy Livingston, all either Naismith players of the year or Gatorade players of the year in their respective senior high school classes, with the exception of Kwame who was obviously a #1 overall pick in the NBA.

It's easy to pick out LeBron and Kobe. Just like I can pick out Dirk and Pau. The caliber of Euroleague has improved since Kukoc was there. But what Kukoc accomplished as a young Euroleague player is still without a doubt impressive. If you're going to use scouting reports of Lamar Odom out of high school and one year at Rhode Island, I think it's fair to look at what Toni did in Euroleague.

For me, Odom is the better athlete, he has had better production in the NBA, and he probably has a higher ceiling than what a 25 year old Toni Kukoc had. But Odom has never reached his full potential and that's mostly on him. As an NBA player, I don't think Toni reached his full potential either, but I think it was more of a product of his situation, the NBA team he landed on, the offense it ran, and particularly two of the teammates he played with in Jordan and Pippen. When Jordan and Pippen left, Toni was already 30 years old. He put up 19/7/5 that season. Then he became a journeyman. I still would have liked to see him have more of a chance to be "the guy" on a team a few years earlier. There was no Jordan his rookie year, but it was still his rookie year in the NBA. Then he had to take a backseat to Jordan and Pippen the next 4 seasons.

As for who is better offensively. It's arguable. Kukoc was the better shooter and at least for me the better passer/playmaker. Odom has different advantages on offense based on his skills. Better at driving to the basket and finishing, a much better offensive rebounder, better one-on-one player in isolation. If you look at each of their true shooting %, they're very comparable with a slight edge to Odom. Kukoc was more of a jumpshooter obviously. But it's more of a toss-up depending on what you look at as to who was better offensively. Even during that Bulls second threepeat, Kukoc's assist percentage was somewhere around 23-24% being a third banana on that team. Odom is also a third playmaker to Kobe and Pau, but I think he gets more touches than Toni got. And since the Lakers acquired Pau, Odom has an assist percentage of around 13-15%. I do think Toni was the better passer and maximized his touches when it came to creating for teammates.

Great Post, Jam. :toast

I have to say Odom. Kukoc suffered from the same thing most euro players suffered from. Soft and weak on D.

[DAF86]

Anyone saying that one is better than the other by a big margin doesn't know what he's talking about, they're as close and similar as any other pair of players I can think of.

I don't like to compare stats in this case, 'cause they played in different eras and we're comparing a player's full career stats against a player who is still in his prime.

Kukoc is the better offensive player: IMO he's the better ball handler and passer but it can pretty much be considered a wash. Kukoc is clearly a better shooter though, that's the biggest difference between them on the offensive end.

Defensively Odom's athleticism and rebounding give him the edge over Toni, although neither is known for this part of their game,

I also think that Kukoc had a higher BBIQ than Odom but that's very subjective.

All in all, I think they're pretty even but I would give the very slight edge to Kukoc.