WSJ: Where Have The Good Men Gone?

[Marcus Bryant]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704409004576146321725889448.html

[boutons_deux]

Where have all the un-fat women gone?

[Wild Cobra]

Where have all the un-fat women gone?
Stop looking for women at McDonalds!

[DarrinS]

Good article.

[Wild Cobra]

---nevermind---

[EVAY]

For a very long time, Social Sciences have known that the question 'who am I' is materially answered in America with reference to 'what am I'. In other word, our roles define us.

Increasingly, as we expect less and less of our young men in terms of role accomplishment, their identities will be 'not much' or 'just a kid'. The fact that they are happy with that is what is disturbing, apparently to young women and some of the rest of us.

[boutons_deux]

The more complex and sophisticated a mammal and his society is, the longer are the childhood and parental dependency.

For human mammals, I think we've reached to point of no return on parental dependency. :)

Watch a college game crowd of college students, or better yet, just point camera at them and they started screaming their heads off and Doing That Hand Jive.

Most ads of a couple show the woman being the sensible, responsible one and the man being a childish, ignorant jerk.

Then again, Girls Go Wild and instant soft porn if they hear "Show us your tits"

Look at the kind of "men" depicted in beer ads. Fucking stupid jerkoff assholes.

[fraga]

I'm rioght hur bebe...

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/06/56%20STAR%20TATTOO%20FACE%20ARTIST.jpg

[Cant_Be_Faded]

What the fuck? Either this is the same article I read on slate or while back, but even if it is not, this is the 4th or 5th "guys stopped growing up and aren't good men anymore" article I've read in the last month.

They make some good points, but you can't help but laugh while reading that the articles REEK of butthurt women who made stupid choices with their love life.

NEWS ALERT: It ain't fuckin guys burning the holes in the checking account to buy their beer, charcoal, grillin meats, and football jerseys. For every guy who acts all "pre-adult" there is just as many stupid bitches that are shopping their checkbook away on stupid shit they will wear once, just to one-up their bitch friends.


At the same time, young men were tuning in to cable channels like Comedy Central, the Cartoon Network and Spike, whose shows reflected the adolescent male preferences of its targeted male audiences. They watched movies with overgrown boy actors like Steve Carell, Luke and Owen Wilson, Jim Carrey, Adam Sandler, Will Farrell and Seth Rogen, cheering their awesome car crashes, fart jokes, breast and crotch shots, beer pong competitions and other frat-boy pranks. Americans had always struck foreigners as youthful, even childlike, in their energy and optimism. But this was too much.


This one really pissed me off. What the fuck you stupid erudite-wannabe bitch? So guys are watching HGTV? Immature guys are watching Soap channel?

Oh my bad, I didn't realize that women were watching movies that were less idiocracy, more mature, and are making them more responsible, mature adults. GMAFB Here I thought Lindsay Lohan, Kim Kardashian, Miley Cyrus, and Snookie were BAD role models on tv.

This bitch needs to get laid, end. of. story.

Can't stand neo-sexist crap that spews from these stupid cunts mouths. So one sided, a guy would get his balls blown off for writing something like this.

[balli]

What the fuck? Either this is the same article I read on slate or while back, but even if it is not, this is the 4th or 5th "guys stopped growing up and aren't good men anymore" article I've read in the last month.

They make some good points, but you can't help but laugh while reading that the articles REEK of butthurt women who made stupid choices with their love life.

NEWS ALERT: It ain't fuckin guys burning the holes in the checking account to buy their beer, charcoal, grillin meats, and football jerseys. For every guy who acts all "pre-adult" there is just as many stupid bitches that are shopping their checkbook away on stupid shit they will wear once, just to one-up their bitch friends.




This one really pissed me off. What the fuck you stupid erudite-wannabe bitch? So guys are watching HGTV? Immature guys are watching Soap channel?

Oh my bad, I didn't realize that women were watching movies that were less idiocracy, more mature, and are making them more responsible, mature adults. GMAFB Here I thought Lindsay Lohan, Kim Kardashian, Miley Cyrus, and Snookie were BAD role models on tv.

This bitch needs to get laid, end. of. story.

Can't stand neo-sexist crap that spews from these stupid cunts mouths. So one sided, a guy would get his balls blown off for writing something like this.

:lmao

Agreed,

[ChumpDumper]

This bitch needs to get laid, end. of. story.
http://ideallyyaar.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kay-s-hymowitz.jpeg

Doubtful.

[ChumpDumper]

Unless some real man out there has a David Brenner fetish.

[CosmicCowboy]

I don't know that the article is really that far off. I've watched most my friends kids from upper-middle class achieving parents just drift into life with no goals or ambitions...living at home, menial jobs, and their biggest passion is playing video games. For the most part, the girls ARE more responsible than the guys.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The article brings up good points but in an breathtankingly insular way. It's as biased as a Krauthammer article on obama.

Check out this other article on slate....



Sex Is Cheap
Why young men have the upper hand in bed, even when they're failing in life. (http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/)

[ploto]

In general, young women are out achieving young men. Just ask any college admisisons counselor. There was a time not so long ago when preferential treatment was given to help women get into college, and now it happens for men. There are schools that admit to accepting lower quality male candidates to try to even come close to having some sort of balance in their enrollment. As it is, many universities are now almost 2 to 1 girls.

It also reminds me of a show I saw where a man asked women what is wrong with men. He said that the well-put-together women complained that men simply don't act like men.

[DarrinS]

If you were put off by the article, prehaps it hits too close to home.


"You know how I know you're gay?"

[Cant_Be_Faded]

It's just an itch I had to scratch cuz they are just written so damn smug. Angers me to think people get paid to write that crap. If it was in a Marie Claire or somethin, but we're talkin WSJ and shit?

ploto, that's not the point. There are plenty of women who get their degrees, get their bank, but are still immature. Look out that window.

[Marcus Bryant]

For a very long time, Social Sciences have known that the question 'who am I' is materially answered in America with reference to 'what am I'. In other word, our roles define us.

Increasingly, as we expect less and less of our young men in terms of role accomplishment, their identities will be 'not much' or 'just a kid'. The fact that they are happy with that is what is disturbing, apparently to young women and some of the rest of us.

Cultural norms have been inverted for males and females. Or, young men have become the self-absorbed infantile assholes old-school feminists made all men out to be, while young women are free to take over the world to create the vulva utopia.

[Marcus Bryant]

Women wanted to be free to pursue a career and free of the expectations of marriage and motherhood, as well as to not be economically dependent on males and to also enjoy sex without consequences.

Young men now live it up and women still find something to complain about.

[Marcus Bryant]

We live in a world that is every thirteen year-old's fantasy and call it progress.

[Marcus Bryant]

Women didn't want to turn out to be like their mothers and are shocked to find that men are getting away with not being like their fathers.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't know that the article is really that far off. I've watched most my friends kids from upper-middle class achieving parents just drift into life with no goals or ambitions...living at home, menial jobs, and their biggest passion is playing video games. For the most part, the girls ARE more responsible than the guys.

For the last couple of decades, the expectation for educational and career success for females has increased while for males the focus has been on deemphasizing core male traits. In addition, job growth has been in white collar professions open to both while the blue collar opportunities which afford a middle class lifestyle have dwindled.

[ChuckD]

Why should they bust their asses in college, take on a ton of school loan debt, jump on the hamster wheel for a couple three decades and lose their job to outsourcing just when their kids are in school and they are a decade and a half from SSN, and can't even hit their 401k without a penalty for close to 10 years? Maybe they're the smart ones. There will always be menial service jobs that won't go away, and WoW likely will run online forever.

Aim low.

[Marcus Bryant]

The destruction of the family by state and corporation is complete. It is easier to command loyalty from a population of light rooted individuals without the economic support of a spouse and inconvenient emotional ties. Parents are a relic of the past, children are a mistake or a fashion statement. The individual lives for the glory of the state and her employer. Progress.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Women wanted to be free to pursue a career and free of the expectations of marriage and motherhood, as well as to not be economically dependent on males and to also enjoy sex without consequences.

Young men now live it up and women still find something to complain about.

Exactly.

That's why this shit is so annoying to me that it's actually written in reputable publications.

[The Reckoning]

I don't know that the article is really that far off. I've watched most my friends kids from upper-middle class achieving parents just drift into life with no goals or ambitions...living at home, menial jobs, and their biggest passion is playing video games. For the most part, the girls ARE more responsible than the guys.


fuck it. women have been all about breaking the glass ceiling, getting out and working, yada yada yada. so let the bitches have their way.

we dont mind having to do all the cool stay at home shit. let them work their asses off, especially if they dont complain about it.

[The Reckoning]

In general, young women are out achieving young men.

:lol

in what way do you mean?

oh wow so there are more women english majors now. whooptee fuckin do.


men like doing more hands on, technical stuff. they like getting jobs that pay well, and seek occupation based on the market. especially in this day and age, college is not always the best option to be paid well.

[Winehole23]

:lol

in what way do you mean?M/F ratio on college campuses for starters; the ratio taking advanced degrees to cap that. I'm not too sure guys being a little bit handier than the gals even if true explains the reversal of the historical trend along gender lines.

[Stringer_Bell]

Unless some real man out there has a David Brenner fetish.

jajajajaja, dick. her grandkids could be reading this!

Also, Good Men don't advertise themselves (ahem, ourselves). We find the baddest bitches and let them join the party, not the other way around. Fuckin female cuckhold.

[ElNono]

I thought the article was poor, fraught with misconceptions and generalizations without looking at social changes that might have contributed to get to this point (IE: the shift from a manufacturing society to a services society, the obvious decadence of family values and the reasons behind it, etc).

The writer is certainly all over the place. Thanks for posting though.

[dimsah]

:lol

in what way do you mean?

oh wow so there are more women english majors now. whooptee fuckin do.


men like doing more hands on, technical stuff. they like getting jobs that pay well, and seek occupation based on the market. especially in this day and age, college is not always the best option to be paid well.

In my experience this isn't true. My boss is female(director level), her boss is female (executive director) and her boss is female (executive vp).
My former boss was female and her boss was also female.

There is one thing all of these women have in common though. They're all painfully unattractive. :lol

[greyforest]

The article is great and raises excellent points, but I think the big picture has more to do with everything.

Lets observe the situation:

-Worst depression since the Great Depression. Basically no one alive today was in their 20's during the Great Depression, so no one can empathize with us.
-Baby boomers are not retiring. They are holding on to their jobs longer and longer to pay their mortgages.
-High school diplomas are nearly worthless today.
-College diplomas are less valuable than ever, especially with the large prevalence of for-profit, faux colleges taking money and giving diplomas for jobs that don't exist.

This all leads to a shrinking middle class and high unemployment, which is well documented.

Since "Good Men" is really just female-speak for "Men With Money", this perfectly explains their question. The answer is these men do not exist, since they cannot find jobs which would support a middle class family.

[dimsah]

The article is great and raises excellent points, but I think the big picture has more to do with everything.

Lets observe the situation:

-Worst depression since the Great Depression. Basically no one alive today was in their 20's during the Great Depression, so no one can empathize with us.
-Baby boomers are not retiring. They are holding on to their jobs longer and longer to pay their mortgages.
-High school diplomas are nearly worthless today.
-College diplomas are less valuable than ever, especially with the large prevalence of for-profit, faux colleges taking money and giving diplomas for jobs that don't exist.

This all leads to a shrinking middle class and high unemployment, which is well documented.

Since "Good Men" is really just female-speak for "Men With Money", this perfectly explains their question. The answer is these men do not exist, since they cannot find jobs which would support a middle class family.

I don't think it just about "men with money". How many male kids today are worthless when it comes to manual tasks like fixing a sink, changing their own oil, mowing their own lawn?

The definition for a man has changed. Ironically this is partially women's fault because for years, they've pined for the sensitive male. Well, they now have it along with the crying, depression, whining and general ineptitude that comes along with not being able to make a decision when one needs to be made.

[greyforest]

It's not only about money, but ~95% of it is. Think about the examples you just listed; fixing a sink, changing oil, or mowing lawns. Money pays for any of that.

The argument could be made that our generation is much better at using, fixing, formatting, or upgrading computers than any generations before us. This is a good apples-to-apples comparison to your examples, because on average most people over ~35 have to pay money to GeekSquad to format their hard drives.

[ElNono]

I think people overall has raised better arguments in this thread than in the article for symptoms and reasons why you see what you see. Bitching about "Star Wars", playing videogames or Steve Carell movies really strike me as a fairly superficial analysis.

[greyforest]

I think people overall has raised better arguments in this thread than in the article for symptoms and reasons why you see what you see. Bitching about "Star Wars", playing videogames or Steve Carell movies really strike me as a fairly superficial analysis.

Females on average aren't good at assimilating and comprehending the big picture, so they complain about how it affects them directly, and basically give symptoms instead of a diagnosis.

If men can't find a girlfriend or a job, they play videogames.

[ElNono]

It's not only about money, but ~95% of it is. Think about the examples you just listed; fixing a sink, changing oil, or mowing lawns. Money pays for any of that.

There's another connotation which is not related to money, which is hard, physical labor, and all that it brings with it: Exercise, no time for TV or games, since you're most likely dead tired and just need all the sleep you can get, etc.
This is in part why I raised the issue of society as a whole shifting from a manufacturing to a services society. Nowadays, being tired is more closely related to the mind, not the body, and all it's side-effects: people can't sleep, need distraction in some form of entertainment, etc.

[ElNono]

Females on average aren't good at assimilating and comprehending the big picture, so they complain about how it affects them directly, and basically give symptoms instead of a diagnosis.

If men can't find a girlfriend or a job, they play videogames.

I just don't think it's relevant or associated. I have a job, been married for years, and still like to sit down and play some videogames from time to time while my wife watches some soap opera on TV. We still have time to spend together, watch a movie, go shopping and take care of each other.
Heck, we both love to watch some goofy Carell movie or The Office, and we've played some Rockband together back in the day. I think that's where the article fails, trying to tie reasons for what's going on to certain stereotypes.

[greyforest]

USA in particular is really bad for exercise for some other reasons too, like

-Synthetic food devoid of nutrition but with plenty of calories and shelf-life
-No mass transit, which means no walking

I think everyone should buy a pair of gymnastic rings. I wish I would have learned about them a lot earlier in my life, because it's like cheating.

I won't defend my last reply's points, because they aren't facts, but instead generalizations. They aren't hard-and-fast rules, but instead trends that I notice and purport to be.

[Cry Havoc]

As most professors tell it, they also have more confidence and drive. These strengths carry women through their 20s, when they are more likely than men to be in grad school and making strides in the workplace. In a number of cities, they are even out-earning their brothers and boyfriends.

And like any good reporter, she has figures and research information to back up statements like this.

Right?

... Right?


Still, for these women, one key question won't go away: Where have the good men gone? Their male peers often come across as aging frat boys, maladroit geeks or grubby slackers—a gender gap neatly crystallized by the director Judd Apatow in his hit 2007 movie "Knocked Up."

Yeah, it's a good thing stuff like this has never existed before...

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTi6BbumaL3rb-oOnIKxXmVlsXGSICqTFE_qocGAaH0BJWM1wsk&t=1

And it's a good thing that women don't have this problem. I mean, no girls at the club are willing to hook up, right? No women have any problems being described in the article, right? No poor role-models for them in mainstream entertainment, either.

http://bad-girls-club.oxygen.com/

[Cry Havoc]

Tbh, we should go back to the glory days, back when men were men, and beat their wives to keep them in line.

[boutons_deux]

"beat their wives"

that's still current practice, as is child sexual abuse, across all classes, ages, cultures, incomes.

[Cry Havoc]

"beat their wives"

that's still current practice, as is child sexual abuse, across all classes, ages, cultures, incomes.

Except more than ever, men are being arrested for it, as opposed to the past where it wasn't regarded as something nearly as serious. Not only that, but women can actually live without said male figure in their lives, so they don't have to tolerate such abuses. It's odd that the article seems to be whining about their new-found position of self-reliance.

[Vici]

This article just screams bitter woman.

[Drachen]

Look I could go into all the reasons something like this is stupid, but many of those reasons have already been posted. Therefore I have a solution to the plight of females who pine for the days of "good men." Stop fucking them. I mean if women claim that they are tired of men who don't act like men, then why do you see guys in skinny jeans, guy liner, and hair like anne heche walking around with a girlfriend? I am absolutely juvenile, I don't play video games, but I like stupid movies and websites (like failblog, etc). When my wife leaves the room I fart in my friend's face and think its funny. I am also in grad school, am gainfully employed (though could be better LOL), pay my bills, spend time with my family, and can change oil, love mowing the lawn, just got finished pulling the carbs on my motorcycle, etc. They can coexist. I have never been one to be pressured by cultural norms and its a good thing because there has been great pressure recently to femininize (sp? :lol) all males (mani and pedi anyone?).

I will absolutely act like a neanderthal sometimes, its fun, allows the brain to decompress, and recharges for all of the time when I need to not act that way.

[Cry Havoc]

Look I could go into all the reasons something like this is stupid, but many of those reasons have already been posted. Therefore I have a solution to the plight of females who pine for the days of "good men." Stop fucking them. I mean if women claim that they are tired of men who don't act like men, then why do you see guys in skinny jeans, guy liner, and hair like anne heche walking around with a girlfriend? I am absolutely juvenile, I don't play video games, but I like stupid movies and websites (like failblog, etc). When my wife leaves the room I fart in my friend's face and think its funny. I am also in grad school, am gainfully employed (though could be better LOL), pay my bills, spend time with my family, and can change oil, love mowing the lawn, just got finished pulling the carbs on my motorcycle, etc. They can coexist. I have never been one to be pressured by cultural norms and its a good thing because there has been great pressure recently to femininize (sp? :lol) all males (mani and pedi anyone?).

I will absolutely act like a neanderthal sometimes, its fun, allows the brain to decompress, and recharges for all of the time when I need to not act that way.

:lol Also, referring to the article, I was unaware that the previous generation of men who were completely honorable upstanding gentlemen who didn't make or like dirty jokes and never laughed at caveman humor while rebuilding engines or drivetrains :lol. It's incredible how people look at the past as some kind of high water mark in society with absolute, unwavering tunnel vision. Next she'll tell us that we need to go back to the real glory days, back when real men were all knights with sword, kings and peasants lived in complete harmony, and people knew how to get things done. :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

I mean if women claim that they are tired of men who don't act like men, then why do you see guys in skinny jeans, guy liner, and hair like anne heche walking around with a girlfriend?

Women want a girlfriend, with a cock attached.

What this article also ignores is expectations, which are set by many pressures, cultural, parental, and individual. Women are taught to seek the perfect man, the shining knight, and that anything less is settling. These expectations act, in concert with the educational and career options to lead to unmarried women at 35 bemoaning the notion that there's no good men out there or whatever. There are more single women and men than ever.

Of course, there is a counter, that men don't find a bunch of women out there willing to coddle them like their parents did.

Lo and behold that the general population isn't full of superheroes and people who are waiting on hand and foot to cater to your every whim. People need to get over their unrealistic expectations, if they are that unhappy not being in a relationship.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think a fair amount of blame can be placed on the parents of the new woman and new man. You bitch about your 25 year old boy who won't get off his ass and make something of himself, but that didn't happen overnight. Same for why your daughter in her late 20s is still single and miserable that she's lonely, despite having had a few serious relationships (who weren't perfect).

[Marcus Bryant]

People need to get over themselves and get on with life. The end.

[Cry Havoc]

Women want a girlfriend, with a cock attached.

What this article also ignores is expectations, which are set by many pressures, cultural, parental, and individual. Women are taught to seek the perfect man, the shining knight, and that anything less is settling. These expectations act, in concert with the educational and career options to lead to unmarried women at 35 bemoaning the notion that there's no good men out there or whatever. There are more single women and men than ever.

Of course, there is a counter, that men don't find a bunch of women out there willing to coddle them like their parents did.

Lo and behold that the general population isn't full of superheroes and people who are waiting on hand and foot to cater to your every whim. People need to get over their unrealistic expectations, if they are that unhappy not being in a relationship.

It's the "Walt Disney Princess Syndrome", tbh. A lot of women out there looking for the perfect man think that man is going to treat them like a goddess with no faults and adore their every step. Women who are looking for realistic, decent men usually find them, IMO.

[The Reckoning]

LOL

check out yahoos front page today.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/His-Recession-Becoming-nytimes-1477170526.html?x=0&.v=1


basically what i said above...

"Men are more concentrated in industries that are both more sensitive to the business cycle and trending down (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12fcijsqv/**http%3A//economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/13/the-declining-demand-for-men/) as a share of total employment.

However, women are more concentrated in state and local jobs (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/SIG=12emfn5gp/**http%3A//www.iwpr.org/publications/pubs/women-and-men-in-the-public-sector/) that are now on the chopping block as a result of efforts to cut taxes and reduce public spending. About 52 percent of state employees and 61 percent of the much larger category of local employees are women - many of them working as teachers, secretaries, or social workers."


how many women plummers or mechanics do you know? my friend is the manager of a discount tire and makes a shitload of money...never stepped foot onto a college campus. is he underachieving? its all relative.

also, in this day and age with college degrees painfully expensive, dadda is more likely to pay for his little girls education than his son, who he thinks should go out and get a job immediately.

[Drachen]

also, in this day and age with college degrees painfully expensive, dadda is more likely to pay for his little girls education than his son, who he thinks should go out and get a job immediately.

Willow?

[Marcus Bryant]

how many women plummers or mechanics do you know? my friend is the manager of a discount tire and makes a shitload of money...never stepped foot onto a college campus. is he underachieving? its all relative.

also, in this day and age with college degrees painfully expensive, dadda is more likely to pay for his little girls education than his son, who he thinks should go out and get a job immediately.

True. The parents of a college educated daughter who themselves are college graduates probably wouldn't look too favorably on her going out with a 27 year old assistant manager of a Discount Tire with only a HS diploma, no matter how much $ he makes.

These parental/social influences are important, and serve to create a class structure in what, in theory, is a flat society full of equal citizens before the law.

So naturally we end up with a bunch of college graduates who bitch about how unfair life is while they are too good to step anywhere near something that looks like blue collar work, let alone actually interact with the blue collar creatures in a social setting.

[The Reckoning]

M/F ratio on college campuses for starters; the ratio taking advanced degrees to cap that. I'm not too sure guys being a little bit handier than the gals even if true explains the reversal of the historical trend along gender lines.

more public sector jobs are requiring masters degrees. women take up a huge chunk of the public sector.



also, baby boomers arent retiring anytime soon, and the ones that are getting too old to do the handy work are hiring non-collegiate young men as apprentices.

"handier" degrees like engineering and computer science are still dominated by men. fine arts are mostly all women (including architecture, from my experience.)

ive taken alot of anthropology and archaeology courses, and they are completely dominated by women. im going on a field school for fun this summer, and im the only male out of 15 people. i wonder who theyre going to have digging the holes...

the women complaining sound like theyre going to school to get their MRS degree, and oops...theres no men left.


......

we are too spoiled as a society when we think achievement is based on a college degree and that everyone is entitled to one. maybe thats the first problem.

if i couldve done it over again, i wouldnt have enrolled at the university. i wouldve taken some community college courses, earned my real estate license and went straight to development.

[CosmicCowboy]

It's not only about money, but ~95% of it is. Think about the examples you just listed; fixing a sink, changing oil, or mowing lawns. Money pays for any of that.

The argument could be made that our generation is much better at using, fixing, formatting, or upgrading computers than any generations before us. This is a good apples-to-apples comparison to your examples, because on average most people over ~35 have to pay money to GeekSquad to format their hard drives.

:lmao:lmao:lmao

So you are good at using the computers the previous generation MADE for you? :lol Talk about rationalizing...

[Marcus Bryant]

Pursuing anything other than the collegiate path is American heresy. The college degree is now part and parcel of the American faith in progress, the American dream. In addition, it is part of the dream that parents have for their children. To have raised a mechanic who can support himself is deemed a failure in parenting, while raising a freeloading college dropout who is still trying to "find himself" at age 28 is somehow a more successful parenting result.

[Marcus Bryant]

For when in polite company the bum can say that he did go to whatever college, while the mechanic has to admit that he went to work straight out of high school and is a member of the undesirable caste.

[Winehole23]

MALE, n. A member of the unconsidered, or negligible sex. The male of the human race is commonly known (to the female) as Mere Man. The genus has two varieties: good providers and bad providers.

[Marcus Bryant]

The advent of the matriarchal age begins with bitching and nagging. Progress.

[DarkReign]

I spent about 4 minutes at a community college 12 years ago.

College and the expenses, time and investment it takes to derive value from it is completely overrated in this country.

All you need, will ever need and have ever needed is ambition and an everlasting work ethic with no equivocation.

What I see in the young men I hire is a lack of work ethic. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, programmer, banker, etc. because the job pays extremely well and its all done in about 40 hours a week.

Whereas I work 60+ hours a week and my employees routinely work 70-80 hours a week. What makes me laugh is that the youngin' who wants the bad-ass job doesnt realize that the competition for that job is disproportionate to his level of commitment.

Such as, the banker making all the cash? The job description says 9-5, but he/she routinely works double that because thats what it takes to be the best one can be, to be successful and a value to your employer.

All the people I see want a lot for the least amount of effort....

And therein lies the problem. If your true goal in your education/career is to have a job that requires a minimal amount of effort relative to pay, then youre going to be perpetually disappointed. There are exceptions abound, Im sure, but if you truly were exceptional, you wouldnt be complaining about the cost of college and the lack of opportunity in your chosen field.

This life is exactly what you make it to be, end of discussion. Youre either dedicated beyond any shadow of a doubt to success and how you define it or you are not. Everything is tertiary to your personal conviction of character. If you have that, you have everything you ever needed.

[Marcus Bryant]

Or, women choose weaker degree programs (in aggregate), complete them, and get more of the jobs that require a BA (though really don't).

[Marcus Bryant]

This life is exactly what you make it to be, end of discussion. Youre either dedicated beyond any shadow of a doubt to success and how you define it or you are not. Everything is tertiary to your personal conviction of character. If you have that, you have everything you ever needed.

:tu

Here, here.

[coyotes_geek]

I spent about 4 minutes at a community college 12 years ago.

College and the expenses, time and investment it takes to derive value from it is completely overrated in this country.

All you need, will ever need and have ever needed is ambition and an everlasting work ethic with no equivocation.

What I see in the young men I hire is a lack of work ethic. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, programmer, banker, etc. because the job pays extremely well and its all done in about 40 hours a week.

Whereas I work 60+ hours a week and my employees routinely work 70-80 hours a week. What makes me laugh is that the youngin' who wants the bad-ass job doesnt realize that the competition for that job is disproportionate to his level of commitment.

Such as, the banker making all the cash? The job description says 9-5, but he/she routinely works double that because thats what it takes to be the best one can be, to be successful and a value to your employer.

All the people I see want a lot for the least amount of effort....

And therein lies the problem. If your true goal in your education/career is to have a job that requires a minimal amount of effort relative to pay, then youre going to be perpetually disappointed. There are exceptions abound, Im sure, but if you truly were exceptional, you wouldnt be complaining about the cost of college and the lack of opportunity in your chosen field.

This life is exactly what you make it to be, end of discussion. Youre either dedicated beyond any shadow of a doubt to success and how you define it or you are not. Everything is tertiary to your personal conviction of character. If you have that, you have everything you ever needed.

:tu

Great post.

[CosmicCowboy]

:tu

great post.

x2

[Marcus Bryant]

And Americans are sorting themselves into greater homogeneous pockets now more than ever. The children of doctors and lawyers are less likely to grow up with, go to school with, and in general, socialize with, the children of mechanics and carpenters.

What is seen as a gender difference really contains a class sensibility. It's not so much that jobs aren't out there, but rather the 'right kind' of opportunity for the 'right kind' of individual. Whereas the hardworking son of a lower class family has to bust his ass to advance, the bum son of a banker can F up multiple times yet still make out alright, even if he doesn't grow up until age 30.

What we have are parents with the financial wherewithal and the desire to keep their children from being forced to take care of themselves by taking an 'undesirable' job. No upper middle class parent wants to admit that their son is in an occupation of low social standing. It's much more acceptable to admit that he's a freeloading fuck up and that you have the bank to indulge him.

[The Reckoning]

DarkReign makes a great point.

the future of America isnt built on the "battle of the sexes" or ethnic and social equalities (however important they may be), or even education. its on the shoulders of the individual.

i think we've lost that through the movements of the past few decades. we feel entitled because we belong to a particular group, and we've developed this mentality of oppression by another entity that in no way affects our work ethic and goals, but we let it do so because we've been indoctrined to believe that we cant control our own individual destiny.

[Winehole23]

The advent of the matriarchal age begins with bitching and nagging. Progress.In fairness the avuncular bitching and nagging about eternal bitching and nagging never stopped either.

[greyforest]

:lmao:lmao:lmao

So you are good at using the computers the previous generation MADE for you? :lol Talk about rationalizing...

I'm not talking about myself anecdotally, I'm talking about percents, averages, and trends among a huge swath of people. That's what this whole thread is about.


You cannot argue that the average 10-35 year old is less tech-savvy than 35 and older. If you are arguing that, then I'm sorry, you're wrong. I'm not even going to google this shit for you, go do it yourself.

[greyforest]

What I see in the young men I hire is a lack of work ethic. Everyone wants to be a lawyer, programmer, banker, etc. because the job pays extremely well and its all done in about 40 hours a week.

Whereas I work 60+ hours a week and my employees routinely work 70-80 hours a week.

http://nitawriter.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/economist.jpg?w=397&h=431

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2010/01/vacation_time_chart2.png

Should the average work week be 60+ hours?

[CosmicCowboy]

Should the average work week be 60+ hours?

Knowing somewhat what he does, I suspect it is a mutually beneficial and mutually appreciated relationship. He needs skilled work done right by employees he trusts and they want the overtime so they can give their family a higher lifestyle than if they worked a flat 40 hours. win/win.

[greyforest]

He argues that the problem is a lack of worth ethic. His prospects want to work 40 hours a week (slightly above the national average), and to him this is sub-par.

The only prospects worthy of consideration are those who are willing to work 50-75% more hours than the national average.

I am baiting with my question, because I'll let you in on the answer: there isn't enough work in the country for everyone to work 60 hours a week. The only reason he can filter out and keep only prospects who are willing to work extreme hours is due to the oversupply of labor and undersupply of jobs. It's an employer's market right now.

[CosmicCowboy]

He argues that the problem is a lack of worth ethic. His prospects want to work 40 hours a week (slightly above the national average), and to him this is sub-par.

The only prospects worthy of consideration are those who are willing to work 50-75% more hours than the national average.

I am baiting with my question, because I'll let you in on the answer: there isn't enough work in the country for everyone to work 60 hours a week. The only reason he can filter out and keep only prospects who are willing to work extreme hours is due to the oversupply of labor and undersupply of jobs. It's an employer's market right now.

Damn that was an bumfucking ignorant post. If there was an oversupply of the skilled labor he needs and he was the predatory boss you are trying to paint him as he would be hiring 2 part timers so he wouldn't need to pay any benefits or overtime. He likes the guys that WANT to work overtime because they have a good work ethic and he doesn't mind paying them the overtime. What is so hard to understand about that?

[greyforest]

The only thing predatory is the idea that a 40-hour work week is sub-par, and you and your buddy seem to be perpetuating it pretty well. You claim that I am ignorant, yet you seem to be ignoring the graphs I supplied up there and all the points I'm making.

[The Reckoning]

its funny because yall dont even know what line of work he's in. maybe there is nobody willing to work part time because of the skill involved.

[CosmicCowboy]

Actually, he has stated it in here. He was in the automotive subcontractor manufacturing business and had to transition to military supply in the downturn and seems to have made a successful transition. I'm glad for him that he is busy.

[coyotes_geek]

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/files/2010/01/vacation_time_chart2.png


Is this graph trying to tell me that no one in the U.S. gets paid days off for vacation or holidays?

[CosmicCowboy]

The only thing predatory is the idea that a 40-hour work week is sub-par, and you and your buddy seem to be perpetuating it pretty well. You claim that I am ignorant, yet you seem to be ignoring the graphs I supplied up there and all the points I'm making.

Dumbass. I have guys that want all the overtime they can get. I don't always have it, but get it for them anytime I can. I'm not perpetuating that 40 hours is sub-par. He and I am both saying that the guys that want the overtime are typically also our best employees.

[CosmicCowboy]

The only thing predatory is the idea that a 40-hour work week is sub-par, and you and your buddy seem to be perpetuating it pretty well. You claim that I am ignorant, yet you seem to be ignoring the graphs I supplied up there and all the points I'm making.

I really could give a shit about your charts and graphs. Move to Finland if we are so evil.

[Drachen]

Is this graph trying to tell me that no one in the U.S. gets paid days off for vacation or holidays?

I was wondering this as well. A little confused since I get four weeks off a year. (plus holidays)

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Dumbass. I have guys that want all the overtime they can get. I don't always have it, but get it for them anytime I can. I'm not perpetuating that 40 hours is sub-par. He and I am both saying that the guys that want the overtime are typically also our best employees.

Same here. These are the guys that tend to care about the work they do, too.

In this day and age, it's a rarity.

[Drachen]

Ok, so I do have to say that I agree with CC that those who demand extra hours probably have a good work ethic. Though the other option is that they have to work that many hours because the ran up their bills, or even want to impress the boss in the midst of this jobless recovery. However, I do want to say that it directly affects their abilities to parent. I only bring this up because there were complaints in this thread about parenting abilities. So while the work ethic may be admirable, I would think that a balance would be more admirable. (the hard workers brought up in this thread may be single and no kids so this may not apply, but I am talking in generalizations).

[ploto]

Or, women choose weaker degree programs (in aggregate), complete them, and get more of the jobs that require a BA (though really don't).

Funny, I have a degree in mathematics. My third semester calculus class had 1 guy and 6 women.

[The Reckoning]

Funny, I have a degree in mathematics. My third semester calculus class had 1 guy and 6 women.

just curious. whatd you end up doing with your math degree?

[ElNono]

Work ethic has little to do with how many hours somebody wants to work or if they want to work overtime. When I was younger and didn't have a wife to care for, I had no problem doing 12-15 hour marathons on some days (crunch time), then switching back to 8-10 hours a day. Nowadays, it would be impossible for me to do that at all, and work ethic has nothing to do with it.
It's all about showing that you care for what you do, and you take responsibility for the good and the bad, IMO.

[Marcus Bryant]

Funny, I have a degree in mathematics. My third semester calculus class had 1 guy and 6 women.

http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/women-computer-science-3.jpg

[greyforest]

Actually, he has stated it in here. He was in the automotive subcontractor manufacturing business and had to transition to military supply in the downturn

Quelle surprise.


I really could give a shit about your charts and graphs. Move to Finland if we are so evil.

I'd like to, but the language barrier is a bitch. The women there are fucking gorgeous, though. I'm thinking Australia/NZ maybe after grad school.

Maybe the people there aren't fucking retards.

[johnsmith]

Quelle surprise.



I'd like to, but the language barrier is a bitch. The women there are fucking gorgeous, though. I'm thinking Australia/NZ maybe after grad school.

Maybe the people there aren't fucking retards.



I'm absolutely shocked that you're still a student.

[greyforest]

I really could give a shit about your charts and graphs. Move to Finland if we are so evil.

Really this is a pretty fun quote. Here's how it should read:


Fuck charts and graphs. I don't want to learn anything about how other countries compare to the USA. I want to work for twice as many hours and have a similar quality of life, and if you don't like it you can GET OUT!

[ChuckD]

I'm absolutely shocked that you're still a student.

I'm absolutely shocked that you look down on someone pursuing an advanced degree.

[DarkReign]

Damn that was an bumfucking ignorant post. If there was an oversupply of the skilled labor he needs and he was the predatory boss you are trying to paint him as he would be hiring 2 part timers so he wouldn't need to pay any benefits or overtime. He likes the guys that WANT to work overtime because they have a good work ethic and he doesn't mind paying them the overtime. What is so hard to understand about that?

Absolutely correct.

I could easily split the job into two shifts with almost exclusive part time employees whom I wouldnt have to pay overtime (huge expense, ~230k per year), health insurance (huge expense, ~90k a year), dental and a matching 401k (medium expense, ~35k per year) to.

Instead I employ people who want hours, who want work and enjoy the over-sized checks every week.

Its somewhat mutually beneficial in that as the employer I know the morale of my crew is always high and dedicated. Expense-wise, it costs me more to do it this way but I would never consider the alternative. It may be a better for the bottom line, but then you'll have higher turnover, more scrap, less dedication and oodles of time dedicated to training and re-training.

[Marcus Bryant]

But all employers are assholes who would sell their mother if they could make an extra buck.








(Debatable for mothers-in-law, but I digress).

[101A]

Unless some real man out there has a David Brenner fetish.

That was damned funny.

Chump in rare form.

[DarkReign]

Same here. These are the guys that tend to care about the work they do, too.

In this day and age, it's a rarity.

I have to agree. The people that want the hours are the same people I trust speaking with our customers and vendors.

Theyre extremely dedicated. We once worked 23 hours in a row (circa 2006) and each guy was back to work less than 6 hours later.

This year has been the busiest ever. Im hiring people left and right and working them to the bone. Our line of work does not require any sort of higher education, shit a GED will do. The starting position only requires that you know how to read a scale (a "ruler" for the uninitiated), can comprehend numbers to the 3rd decimal place and can convert standard to metric.

Most of the newbies I hire come from nothing. Broken homes, welfare families, drug addict parents, abusive lifestyles...you name it, these young men have experienced it in the worst ways.

They come from Joe-jobs...McDonalds, Best Buy, local restaurants, gas stations, etc. No future, no training to take anywhere, no education, no applicable skills. In less than 6 months, they can get a job anywhere in the manufacturing business, people that move on usually find themselves moving south to fill the automotive void down there. They only need apply and reference the line of work theyve been in and it usually bodes well for an interview.

Is it glamorous? No, not at all. Its dirty, its loud, it can be dangerous if youre an idiot and its the hardest damn work youve ever done in your life for long, long hours.

But with the hours, a new employee can fully expect to make 40k+ a year with benefits and a matching 401k program with bonuses.

Top dogs make double that with no problem and bigger bonuses.

All with no high school diploma required. It breaks a cycle in their family, I literally see it all the time in these guys. The feel like theyre accomplishing something, they feel appreciated and they finally know what financial independence feels like...something most of their "parents" have never known.

I took a kid out the Delco projects who didnt know his ass from his elbow. Taught him how to mig weld, what penetration and porocity was, proper technique and filled his days with work, work, work in that field. On his own dime, he paid for school to get certified mig, tig, arc and rod. Got an opportunity with a sewage company to hire in as an underground welder. That kid now makes more money than me working less hours. All from the child of a crack-addicted fuck-up mother who never even knew the father's name.

I dont need to justify what kind of business I run, I know what kind of business I run from all the handshakes and "thank you"s I get from ex-employees who without the opportunity my company provides would be probably dead, in prison or a defunct loser waiting for death on the taxpayer.

[LnGrrrR]

Absolutely correct.

I could easily split the job into two shifts with almost exclusive part time employees whom I wouldnt have to pay overtime (huge expense, ~230k per year), health insurance (huge expense, ~90k a year), dental and a matching 401k (medium expense, ~35k per year) to.

Instead I employ people who want hours, who want work and enjoy the over-sized checks every week.

Its somewhat mutually beneficial in that as the employer I know the morale of my crew is always high and dedicated. Expense-wise, it costs me more to do it this way but I would never consider the alternative. It may be a better for the bottom line, but then you'll have higher turnover, more scrap, less dedication and oodles of time dedicated to training and re-training.

Or you could do what the military does, put 'em all on salary and bleed them dry. :lol

[LnGrrrR]

I took a kid out the Delco projects who didnt know his ass from his elbow. Taught him how to mig weld, what penetration and porocity was, proper technique and filled his days with work, work, work in that field. On his own dime, he paid for school to get certified mig, tig, arc and rod. Got an opportunity with a sewage company to hire in as an underground welder. That kid now makes more money than me working less hours. All from the child of a crack-addicted fuck-up mother who never even knew the father's name.

That's the best thing about the military, to me. Not only have I learned invaluable technical skills, but people/leadership skills as well.

[ChuckD]

I was wondering this as well. A little confused since I get four weeks off a year. (plus holidays)

Everyone in those countries gets that vacation, by law. The zero you see under the US is the legal required vacation you must provide by law.

[Winehole23]

Everyone in those countries gets that vacation, by law. The zero you see under the US is the legal required vacation you must provide by law.Fuck everybody else.

[ploto]

The people that want the hours are the same people I trust speaking with our customers and vendors.

Theyre extremely dedicated. We once worked 23 hours in a row (circa 2006) and each guy was back to work less than 6 hours later.

This year has been the busiest ever. Im hiring people left and right and working them to the bone.

So do you not want someone who works his ass off while there but only wants to work 40 hours per week? I just do not equate quantity of hours at a job with work ethic. Rather, it is the quality and dedication while at work that reflect one's work ethic. Some people work hard when they get home, too.

[greyforest]

Fuck everybody else.

The true American spirit!

[Winehole23]

Yes I was drunk, no I am not ashamed. Griping about the goodies others get smacks of ingratitude.

[coyotes_geek]

Everyone in those countries gets that vacation, by law. The zero you see under the US is the legal required vacation you must provide by law.

Okay, there's no law. Yet, somehow, damn near all of us are getting vacation and holidays anyways. How can that be?

[TeyshaBlue]

Okay, there's no law. Yet, somehow, damn near all of us are getting vacation and holidays anyways. How can that be?

I know. How in the world can this be accomplished without a Bureau of PTO? We're some kind of amazing over-achievers I guess.

[Drachen]

So do you not want someone who works his ass off while there but only wants to work 40 hours per week? I just do not equate quantity of hours at a job with work ethic. Rather, it is the quality and dedication while at work that reflect one's work ethic. Some people work hard when they get home, too.

I think they aren't saying that every person who demands extra hours is necessarily a hard worker, but that there is a correlative relationship that they have noticed with their employees. As to your last sentence, I don't think that most employers care about how hard a work ethic one has in their home life.

[greyforest]

Yes I was drunk, no I am not ashamed. Griping about the goodies others get smacks of ingratitude.

Governments love people like you - complacent with being exploited.

[TeyshaBlue]

Governments love people like you - complacent with being exploited.

Finding peace and hapiness within your circumstances is not necessarily complacency.

[Marcus Bryant]

Finding peace and hapiness within your circumstances is not necessarily complacency.

Any affinity for the present is a bourgeois plot.

[Marcus Bryant]

We will never be happy until....

[coyotes_geek]

Governments love people like you - complacent with being exploited.

Good thing governments aren't exploiting anyone who wants more government goodies...........:rolleyes

Or maybe WH is complacent because he doesn't see a need for the government to mandate something that we're already getting.

[Winehole23]

Any affinity for the present is a bourgeois plot.One flipside of utopian horizon-gazing is the gnostic intuition of a completely corrupted world in which humanity has already been extinguished. Hence the need for revolutionary cadres (or reforming elites) to lead dehumanized man to his salvation.

[Capt Bringdown]

Why do workers in other western countries enjoy a stronger social contract? I work with Kiwis, Brits, Aussies and occasionally some Northern Europeans and they can't believe the shit Americans gotta put up with, health care cost and pitiful vacations especially. American exceptionalism, ain't it grand?

[Winehole23]

Or maybe WH is complacent because he doesn't see a need for the government to mandate something that we're already getting.There's that, sure. I'm also doing more or less exactly what I want to with my life right now, so that figures in too.

I don't feel exploited; others envy labor conditions elsewhere. Vive la difference.

[Marcus Bryant]

One flipside of utopian horizon-gazing is the gnostic intuition of a completely corrupted world in which humanity has already been extinguished. Hence the need for revolutionary cadres (or reforming elites) to lead dehumanized man to his salvation.

Reform is an intoxicating liquor, and much like the real thing provides meaning for some.

I'm content to read, write, and enjoy the sunshine and the comedy of man. And imbibe a little. Life's too short to save the world. Save yourself, if you must.

[Winehole23]

In vino veritas.

[TeyshaBlue]

Why do workers in other western countries enjoy a stronger social contract? I work with Kiwis, Brits, Aussies and occasionally some Northern Europeans and they can't believe the shit Americans gotta put up with, health care cost and pitiful vacations especially. American exceptionalism, ain't it grand?

From a historical standpoint, yup, it's been pretty grand.

Today, maybe not so much. Pitiful vacations? No comprende.

[Winehole23]

Reform is an intoxicating liquor, and much like the real thing provides meaning for some.The absence of reform can be intoxicating too. The bottle marked "banking reform" has scarcely been touched yet, and the market recently rose on the release of the 27 page description of the state AGs settlement with the banks, related to foreclosure.

(The ongoing willingness of enforcement to defer to the banks is a de facto abdication of the obligation of the state to protect its citizens from criminality.)

[Winehole23]

Enforcing the existing goddam laws now counts as banking reform. Fuck me.

[Winehole23]

Obama needs Wall Street money for reelection, so he can't kick them in the balls. Simple as that.

[greyforest]

I don't feel exploited;


I assume you pay taxes.

Taxes are supposed to be spent back on the people, on infrastructure. Schools, roads, police, stuff like that. Things that everyone uses and everyone benefits from.

Turns out that's not what your money is doing.

http://www.markorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/us_vs_world-miltary-spending.gif

http://fb.peterl.org/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/442fc20caada8ba86f7b3a0bf1bc3667.gif

Here are some pallets of $100 bills. $12 billion of them were shipped to Iraq and disappeared.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/02/07/dollarsariveiraq372ready.jpg
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1



Notice how all the school districts have to take out loans?

NISD is taking out $500,000,000 loans every three years:
http://bond.nisd.net/

That's because they're sending pallets of your money overseas, and schools here need extra money just to function.

These bonds are loaned by massive banks. Now you are taxed more, and the banks now take a portion of your taxes as profit for themselves.

Banks provide a useful, essential service to humanity, but I don't think many people would argue that banks are important enough to account for 41% of all corporate profit in the USA.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-quiet-coup/7364/

They did though, and took 41% of all US corporate profit for a couple of years, until a crash. We know how that ended.

With the government printing up money and giving it to them.

And what did your loan buy you?

http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/


* Texas is #49 in verbal SAT scores in the nation (493) and #46 in average math SAT scores (502).
* Texas is #36 in the nation in high school graduation rates (68%).
* Texas is #33 in the nation in teacher salaries. Teacher salaries in Texas are not keeping pace with the national average. The gains realized from the last state-funded across-the-board pay raise authorized in 1999, which moved the ranking from 33 to as high as 26th in the nation, have disappeared over the last five years.
* Texas was the only state in the nation to cut average per pupil expenditures in fiscal year 2005, resulting in a ranking of #40 nationally; down from #25 in fiscal year 1999.
* Texas is #6 in the nation in student growth. The general student population in Texas public schools grew by 11.1% between school years 1999 and 2005, with the largest percent of growth seen among low income and minority children.
* Between school years 1999 and 2005, the number of central administrators employed by Texas public schools grew by 32.5%, overall staffing in public schools grew by 15.6%, while the number of teachers grew only 13.3%.





Don't "give a fuck" about any of that though. Get back to work.

[ploto]

I don't think that most employers care about how hard a work ethic one has in their home life.

The employer may not care but it still speaks to a person's work ethic, in my view. Someone who works at work and is a lazy ass at home does not truly have an innate work ethic. It is about making money at their job, and not a built in personal standard about how one should do what they do wherever they do it. I do not think it only applies to one's job for pay to define the work ethic an individual has. Someone may work extremely hard for a charity and that shows his or her work ethic.

[Winehole23]

Don't "give a fuck" about any of that though. Get back to work.(ehem)

It's my day off.

Are you already familiar with my views on education and national defense, or did you just jump to conclusions?

[Winehole23]

How'd you get so familiar with what I give a fuck about, greyforest? You clairvoyant or something?

[Winehole23]

(The context was paid vacation time fergawdsakes.)

[TeyshaBlue]

Wow...what a bunch of vapid stats, none of which actually support what you are saying.
There's alot of dots you haven't connected here.

[Marcus Bryant]

(ehem)

It's my day off.

Are you already familiar with my views on education and national defense, or did you just jump to conclusions?

The discontented assume they are surrounded by their enemies.

[Marcus Bryant]

And they assume the generally contented are content with their strawmen.

[Winehole23]

There's alot of dots you haven't connected here.From 30,000 feet the dots might not be distinguishable.

[Marcus Bryant]

Enforcing the existing goddam laws now counts as banking reform. Fuck me.

The rule of law is revolutionary.

[greyforest]

I'm not clairvoyant, here's what you said:


Fuck everybody else.



Yes I was drunk, no I am not ashamed. Griping about the goodies others get smacks of ingratitude.



There's that, sure. I'm also doing more or less exactly what I want to with my life right now, so that figures in too.

I don't feel exploited; others envy labor conditions elsewhere. Vive la difference.

We are arguing about labor conditions in the USA. We work ~40% of the year for the US/State/local governments in the form of taxation. I'm arguing that we are being exploited, and providing an explanation of why (our tax money is spent not on us, but on other endeavors).

If you agree that your tax money is being squandered on bullshit and stolen instead of being spent on us, then you agree that we are being exploited.

[Winehole23]

The rule of law is revolutionary.Beyond radical. Crazy.

[coyotes_geek]

I assume you pay taxes.

Taxes are supposed to be spent back on the people, on infrastructure. Schools, roads, police, stuff like that. Things that everyone uses and everyone benefits from.

Turns out that's not what your money is doing.

http://www.markorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/us_vs_world-miltary-spending.gif

http://fb.peterl.org/wp-content/uploads/HLIC/442fc20caada8ba86f7b3a0bf1bc3667.gif

Here are some pallets of $100 bills. $12 billion of them were shipped to Iraq and disappeared.
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2007/02/07/dollarsariveiraq372ready.jpg
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1



Notice how all the school districts have to take out loans?

NISD is taking out $500,000,000 loans every three years:
http://bond.nisd.net/

That's because they're sending pallets of your money overseas, and schools here need extra money just to function.

These bonds are loaned by massive banks. Now you are taxed more, and the banks now take a portion of your taxes as profit for themselves.

Banks provide a useful, essential service to humanity, but I don't think many people would argue that banks are important enough to account for 41% of all corporate profit in the USA.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/05/the-quiet-coup/7364/

They did though, and took 41% of all US corporate profit for a couple of years, until a crash. We know how that ended.

With the government printing up money and giving it to them.

And what did your loan buy you?

http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/






Don't "give a fuck" about any of that though. Get back to work.

Since we're apparantly just posting random crap now..............

http://mozi.netbungalow.com/filestore/pancakebunny.jpg

[greyforest]

So an argument on the internet ended?

Wow.

[TeyshaBlue]

mmmmm....pancakes.

[greyforest]

If anyone reads this thread and understands the points I'm making, let me know! I think the schools here might not be working...

[TeyshaBlue]

I'm not clairvoyant, here's what you said:









We are arguing about labor conditions in the USA. We work ~40% of the year for the US/State/local governments in the form of taxation. I'm arguing that we are being exploited, and providing an explanation of why (our tax money is spent not on us, but on other endeavors).

If you agree that your tax money is being squandered on bullshit and stolen instead of being spent on us, then you agree that we are being exploited.

I think you are trying to force an ergo where it won't fit.
Disagreeing on how tax money is spent does not equal exploitation. You can make a case, perhaps, in certain instances. But to blithely attribute it to any disagreement on tax spending is ridiculous, at best.

[Winehole23]

If you agree that your tax money is being squandered on bullshit and stolen instead of being spent on us, then you agree that we are being exploited.Yes, money is being misspent, very notably on education and war. I agree.

Your point?

[Winehole23]

My personal contentedness, or making reference to it, is false consciousness or some pious crap like that?

[Winehole23]

Is it necessarily a sign of a pure soul to be discontented? Or of a corrupt one to feel contentment from time to time?

[greyforest]

Disagreeing on how tax money is spent does not equal exploitation.

You've hit on the core of the argument.

I would argue that the way the US taxes are spent are quite exploitative, because they are not spent back on the people. I tried to supply data to back this up, but no one seems to understand any of it. How curious.

[DarkReign]

So do you not want someone who works his ass off while there but only wants to work 40 hours per week? I just do not equate quantity of hours at a job with work ethic. Rather, it is the quality and dedication while at work that reflect one's work ethic. Some people work hard when they get home, too.

Thats fair, but doesnt work for me as the employer.

Since I do not run two shifts, the full-time employees I hire are expected to work the hours the shop is open.

If they cannot fulfill the demands of the job then I can easily find someone who will.

But all of this is laid out up front before they ever take the job. My semi-orientation involves going over the job description, the needed productivity benchmarks and the crushing hours. I make it crystal-fucking-clear up front before they ever agree to the job that they will work a lot and if their schedule does not allow for the hours then do not waste my time or yours with your employment here.

I also make it clear how hard the work is and let them know up front that there is no shame in coming after being hired and saying "You know, this job isnt for me. Its hard-ass work/The hours are too long/I need a job that allows more time with my family/whatever". I will completely understand and keep them in mind in the future should they change their mind (if theyre a good employee).

I am fully aware that this job isnt for everyone. Again, some people want to do only whats necessary to exist in this life and thats completely fine. If that means working a job that barely hits 40 hours but pays the bills, I would say most people are content with that. There is nothing wrong with that mindset, its just a mindset I do not share or envy. Nor will that outlook coincide with employment here.

There are other employers out there, they do have jobs available, apply there. The work will most definitely be easier, the hours will be less demanding and you might even be able to pay your bills on the salary as an unskilled laborer.

What I offer is a crash-course in manufacturing to the Nth degree that pays more than you probably need, pays for slightly-less-than-outstanding health insurance at a minimum employee contribution (~$25 a week) and a matching 401k program. Oh yeah, youll also be able to take the skills you previously did not have to basically anywhere in the country with great references.

To the minimally educated, I offer a possible career that pays you to learn. Are you going to make $100k+? Probably not unless you usurp my established management hierarchy, but you can make damn near it.

All with no education to speak of, no previous experience and no applicable industry skills.

The job isnt for everyone and our low-level turnover is certainly higher than the mid and high level work, but most of my crew has been with the company for 10+ years.

[greyforest]

established management hierarchy

America@!!!

[Winehole23]

I would argue that the way the US taxes are spent are quite exploitative, because they are not spent back on the people. I tried to supply data to back this up, but no one seems to understand any of it. How curious. Empire is wasteful and expensive. Schools suck.

Other posters have acknowledged as much, yet you suggest they lack understanding for agreeing. How curious.

[Winehole23]

Also, your data was a bit of a ragbag, though it is fairly convincing evidence that government spending on things you don't like (or that don't work) in fact exists.

[TeyshaBlue]

You've hit on the core of the argument.

I would argue that the way the US taxes are spent are quite exploitative, because they are not spent back on the people. I tried to supply data to back this up, but no one seems to understand any of it. How curious.

What of those that actually agree with the spending? Are they too being exploited?
The data you supplied was inconclusive outside of saying, look, we spend money on stuff. The banking tangent was very tenuously connected to your argument. I can see a bit of your reasoning there.
The educational data itself is quite flawed. I don't want to completely shoot the wheels off this thread, so we'll save that for another.

[Winehole23]

(1st beer)

[TeyshaBlue]

*hates WH now*

[greyforest]

Empire is wasteful and expensive. Schools suck.

Other posters have acknowledged as much, yet you suggest they lack understanding for agreeing. How curious.


It appeared that plenty of people lacked understanding:


Since we're apparantly just posting random crap now..............

http://mozi.netbungalow.com/filestore/pancakebunny.jpg


Wow...what a bunch of vapid stats, none of which actually support what you are saying.
There's alot of dots you haven't connected here.


From 30,000 feet the dots might not be distinguishable.




I apologize that my data post was sort of rambling and not well organized, but I don't have much time left before I have to leave. I'll post later.

[DarkReign]

America@!!!

Small company!

[Winehole23]

*hates WH now*fwiw, I like the way you said it better.

[Winehole23]

I apologize that my data post was sort of rambling and not well organized, but I don't have much time left before I have to leave. I'll post later.Thanks for the data post. I look forward to your clarification.

[The Reckoning]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPR108kwNo4

[Oh, Gee!!]

http://ideallyyaar.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kay-s-hymowitz.jpeg

Doubtful.



she's just kvetching is all

[greyforest]

What of those that actually agree with the spending? Are they too being exploited?

Yes, but without their understanding.

Do you agree with sending $12,000,000,000 to Iraq on pallets instead of building schools?


The data you supplied was inconclusive outside of saying, look, we spend money on stuff.

The data I supplied shows that our tax money is not being spent on us, but instead is being squandered on foreign wars and Wall Street banks.

Tax money is unarguably not being spent on us because our local school districts are having to borrow billions of dollars just to perform at a mediocre level. Anecdotally, about half of my K-12 education was not in buildings, but in trailers called portables. Nearly all of my history teachers in HS were athletic coaches.


The educational data itself is quite flawed. I don't want to completely shoot the wheels off this thread, so we'll save that for another.

We are well past derailed.

What specific bits about

http://www.window.state.tx.us/comptrol/wwstand/wws0512ed/

or

http://bond.nisd.net/

do you believe are flawed?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This is a clear attempt by yet another baby boomer attempting to denigrate their descendants and deflect attention away from the utter fucking failure that is their generation.

They took power following the peace, love and happiness of the sixties and seventies and quickly turned the US into a culture of debt, greed and instant gratification.

Yes, many kids are socially awkward with the new forms of communication and personal isolation that you see common today.

That does not mitigate that this country is not going to be a better place until that generation as a whole dies off and leaves the power structure.

If you are under the age of 50 you have every right to be livid and the legacy that is being left by cunts like her.

Oh and as an aside, she attributed the marital 'problems' on poor black people.

Its rich white people that are the fucking problem.

[CosmicCowboy]

This is a clear attempt by yet another baby boomer attempting to denigrate their descendants and deflect attention away from the utter fucking failure that is their generation.

They took power following the peace, love and happiness of the sixties and seventies and quickly turned the US into a culture of debt, greed and instant gratification.

Yes, many kids are socially awkward with the new forms of communication and personal isolation that you see common today.

That does not mitigate that this country is not going to be a better place until that generation as a whole dies off and leaves the power structure.

If you are under the age of 50 you have every right to be livid and the legacy that is being left by cunts like her.

Oh and as an aside, she attributed the marital 'problems' on poor black people.

Its rich white people that are the fucking problem.

:lmao

[phxspurfan]

This is a clear attempt by yet another baby boomer attempting to denigrate their descendants and deflect attention away from the utter fucking failure that is their generation.

They took power following the peace, love and happiness of the sixties and seventies and quickly turned the US into a culture of debt, greed and instant gratification.

Yes, many kids are socially awkward with the new forms of communication and personal isolation that you see common today.

That does not mitigate that this country is not going to be a better place until that generation as a whole dies off and leaves the power structure.

If you are under the age of 50 you have every right to be livid and the legacy that is being left by cunts like her.

Oh and as an aside, she attributed the marital 'problems' on poor black people.

Its rich white people that are the fucking problem.


I'm glad I came back to this thread, so I could just read this post. gg

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If I made you laugh or want to post 'you mad?' pics then thats all good but I am quite earnest about this.

This is the exact same type of shit that I heard 20 years ago from exactly the same group of people.

What I do not hear about is the colossal failure that they have been.

There are about 310 million people in the US. Of those about 240 million can vote. Of those about 80 million are aged 47 to 67. Thats a third of the electorate.

The population has grown so this percentage over the last thirty years has been more.

i think that if you would look at constituents of various legislative, judicial and executive bodies both private and public you would see an even greater percentages. I think its more than half.

For example there are only 29 people under the age of 40 in the 112th Congress out of over 500 members.

I do not know about you but personally I feel that the two party system under this constitutional framework is fundamentally broken. I also feel that given an economic reality of resource scarcity and a culture of far reaching, instant and impersonal communication that its going to get worse.

Its the twilight of the idols.

We do not have to leave for things to change. We just need for them to die.

The next twenty years are going to see an immense change in who is going to be in the power structure on every level.

We need to do a better job.

[DarrinS]

This is a clear attempt by yet another baby boomer attempting to denigrate their descendants and deflect attention away from the utter fucking failure that is their generation.

They took power following the peace, love and happiness of the sixties and seventies and quickly turned the US into a culture of debt, greed and instant gratification.

Yes, many kids are socially awkward with the new forms of communication and personal isolation that you see common today.

That does not mitigate that this country is not going to be a better place until that generation as a whole dies off and leaves the power structure.

If you are under the age of 50 you have every right to be livid and the legacy that is being left by cunts like her.

Oh and as an aside, she attributed the marital 'problems' on poor black people.

Its rich white people that are the fucking problem.



Wow, you really reinforce the arguments of the op ed with this epic tantrum.

[Marcus Bryant]

True, they lived well off their inheritance. Would any other generation have done differently?

[CosmicCowboy]

At least we moved out ASAP and got jobs and houses. He probably still lives with his parents.

[greyforest]

At least we moved out ASAP and got jobs and houses. He probably still lives with his parents.

Because it's just as easy for his generation as it was for yours, and they have had the same exact opportunities and economy.

[ploto]

I am fine with just about everything you said except this:


...some people want to do only whats necessary to exist in this life and thats completely fine. If that means working a job that barely hits 40 hours but pays the bills, I would say most people are content with that.

You seem to be saying that someone who only wants to work 40 hours per week is only doing what is necessary to exist in life and ignoring the fact that many people have other obligations beside their job. They may be doing far more than the minimum to exist just not all of it for you.

What if you had a great employee whose ill parent needed to move in with him and he needed to work fewer hours?

[Marcus Bryant]

My personal contentedness, or making reference to it, is false consciousness or some pious crap like that?


Is it necessarily a sign of a pure soul to be discontented? Or of a corrupt one to feel contentment from time to time?

The true believer must never admit any satisfaction with the status quo.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wow, you really reinforce the arguments of the op ed with this epic tantrum.

Thanks milquetoast.

Its more like you need to pay the fuck attention.

This type of piece is nothing uncommon from the baby boomers. If that bitch had kids, it was long ago.

I first became aware of this type of generational smear campaign twenty years ago with all the questions surrounding generation x and their approach to life. My sister was in college around that time.

Ten years later and I am got the same shit.

Ten more years and its the same shit yet again.

All of this is an implication towards responsibility which in turn implies authority.

Thing is its from the same source.

The last ten years have been them at their zenith.

The proof is in the pudding though.

The embarrassment of American industry. A lack of a scientific identity or inspiration. An economy not based on production or consumption but instead the transaction.

There is even historical precedent in the generation following world war 1 and the collapse that followed.

Things are not very good right now and awkward 20 year olds that a 60 year old woman does not understand are not the problem.


True, they lived well off their inheritance. Would any other generation have done differently?

So sayeth the man who sells the family home only to lose it to dice.

Who amongst them are great?

Bill Gates, leader of industry? Donald Trump, illusion of industry?

This is a generation who sends men off to wars without heros. When Norman Schwarzkopf is the best you have thats all you need to know.

Scientists characterized by innovation but with very little insight.

Religious authorities defined by hate and pedophilia. Its been a long time since Billy Graham, Mr. Hagee.

-----------------------------------------

To everyone else who may fit that demographic and that I have offended. I am sorry. I do not know you and in no way can know your character but as a whole, your peers are terrible.

[DarrinS]

Thanks milquetoast.

Its more like you need to pay the fuck attention.

This type of piece is nothing uncommon from the baby boomers. If that bitch had kids, it was long ago.

I first became aware of this type of generational smear campaign twenty years ago with all the questions surrounding generation x and their approach to life. My sister was in college around that time.

Ten years later and I am got the same shit.

Ten more years and its the same shit yet again.

All of this is an implication towards responsibility which in turn implies authority.

Thing is its from the same source.

The last ten years have been them at their zenith.

The proof is in the pudding though.

The embarrassment of American industry. A lack of a scientific identity or inspiration. An economy not based on production or consumption but instead the transaction.

There is even historical precedent in the generation following world war 1 and the collapse that followed.

Things are not very good right now and awkward 20 year olds that a 60 year old woman does not understand are not the problem.





This rant was brought to you by Dave & Busters and Xbox.

[greyforest]

If the economy collapses, it would be the boomer's fault. They are in charge.

There would be anarchy.

The 20-year olds don't do anything but play murder simulating videogames.



Don't collapse our country baby boomers! Think it through!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This rant was brought to you by Dave & Busters and Xbox.

Cannot argue a single point and resort to tripe like this.

You sit in front of a computer most every day trolling on computer message boards and you want to throw shit like that out there.

Nice.

[Capt Bringdown]

Baby boomers dropping acid to open the doors of perception
http://images3.wax.fm/13th_floor_elevators_psychedelic_sounds_of_13th_fl oor_elevators-GET593-1229724742.jpeg

vs

Babies throwing acid (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/03/10/2011-03-10_16yearold_zhanna_smsarian_charged_after_she_spl ashed_classmate_with_acid_to_burn.html)
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/03/11/alg_zhanna_smsarian1.jpg
Zhanna Smsarian, 16, leaves Brooklyn Criminal Court after her arraignment for allegedly throwing acid on her classmate during chemistry class.

Your choice.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Baby boomers dropping acid to open the doors of perception
http://images3.wax.fm/13th_floor_elevators_psychedelic_sounds_of_13th_fl oor_elevators-GET593-1229724742.jpeg

vs

Babies throwing acid (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2011/03/10/2011-03-10_16yearold_zhanna_smsarian_charged_after_she_spl ashed_classmate_with_acid_to_burn.html)
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2011/03/11/alg_zhanna_smsarian1.jpg
Zhanna Smsarian, 16, leaves Brooklyn Criminal Court after her arraignment for allegedly throwing acid on her classmate during chemistry class.

Your choice.

Baby boomers killing people, fucking them and eating their flesh. Not necessarily in that order.

ErB0R4wlB64

Oh and Timothy Leary the man who wrote The Doors of Perception was born in 1920.

You may have followed him but he was not one of you.

[Capt Bringdown]

Oh and Timothy Leary the man who wrote The Doors of Perception was born in 1920.


Oh, and Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) wrote The Doors of Perception, not Timothy Leary.

Oh, and famous musical tripsters such as Roky Erikson, John Lennon etc, certainly are baby boomers.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Oh, and Aldous Huxley (1894-1963) wrote The Doors of Perception, not Timothy Leary.

Oh, and famous musical tripsters such as Roky Erikson, John Lennon etc, certainly are baby boomers.

Which furthers the point. He was a man of the 19th century. Timothy Leary who was the figurehead in the tune in, turn, drop out acid eating binge in SF in the early 1960s that you are referring to was not of that generation.

I should have known better about Huxley though. Brave New World is one of my favorite books of fiction.

I will give you Lennon but it is my contention that the baby boomer's squandering of the momentum of the 1960s and early 70s is the tragedy of the twentieth century.

Lennon was not an american.

You killed Lennon, turned Elvis into a mockery, dismantled the technical progress of Kennedy, trashed the legal progress of both Roosevelts.

Hell even Pink Floyd dissolved in a battle over power, prestige and money in the the early 1980s. Just as the baby boomers were coming into their own.

I have little doubt that Lennon would not approve of the actions of his peers. His idealism sits in stark contrast to the cynicism of the generation that holds growing older as an excuse to let go of your ideals.

[z0sa]

Supposedly Pink Floyd's accountants were making bad investments. The band took an unofficial vacation from England, and their debt, to write The Wall and pay things off.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Supposedly Pink Floyd's accountants were making bad investments. The band took an unofficial vacation from England, and their debt, to write The Wall and pay things off.

I have read a lot about how much infighting there was over credit and the like.

Gilmour and Watters could never just settle on a Lennon/McCartney.

Credit implies ownership and Watters seems like he was a real jackass. He wanted it all.

Its actually a pretty good allegory.

[greyforest]

Its somewhat mutually beneficial in that as the employer I know the morale of my crew is always high and dedicated. Expense-wise, it costs me more to do it this way but I would never consider the alternative. It may be a better for the bottom line, but then you'll have higher turnover, more scrap, less dedication and oodles of time dedicated to training and re-training.

Ah, so you're saying it wouldn't cost more expense-wise to handle the higher turnover, more scrap, less dedication, and oodles of time dedicated to training and retraining.