What happens if Kobe never makes it to LA?

[Beau]

Say he actually does end up in Charlotte, stays there for his entire career or only moves onto another team that's of comparable stature, market, means, etc. Does he ever become 'Kobe Bryant'?

He was an immature high-school kid coming out. Even in the structured, professional and winning environment of the Lakers organization his personality threatened to prevent the team from meeting its potential - can't imagine how all of his antics and immaturity would have played out on a young team he was charged with leading... how that would mold both he and his image moving forward in the league.

Let's face it, Kobe's been coddled with more talent and means than any star of his generation - the Lakers are spending $21M more than the Spurs this year, for example, and we all know what the Lakers prestige and location has done for them when it comes to acquiring talent.

We all saw what happened when Shaq left. We all saw how it took him being humbled a bit by the losing from 2005-07 to accept and embrace the help of another All-NBA player in Gasol to get him back to the top.

Basically, it's hard not to imagine Kobe becoming an All-World talent on a bad team. Almost a Mitch Richmond of sorts, only more talented and more of a malcontent.

Food for thought...

[namlook]

Wherever he was they would have put talent around him and he would have won. Comparing him to Mitch Richmond is really bizarre. There's a huge chasm between the talent level of those two players.

Kobe has only had the benefit of one potential Hall of Famer on the five championship teams.

Bird had three and sometimes four Hall of Famers including two HOF bigmen at the same time. Magic always had two including a 6 time MVP. Neither Bird nor Magic have won more rings despite having more talent around them.

[Donkeybong]

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/940/1288361160096.gif

[BlackSwordsMan]

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/940/1288361160096.gif

Favorite part of the movie is when the girl is standing on a corner and pulls up her skirt and a dick falls out.

[Beau]

Wherever he was they would have put talent around him.

Would it have been good enough for him? Not all teams can spend like LA and attract players the way they can...

[Giuseppe]

The best thing he ever did was eliminate college. The second best thing? He told Stern exactly where he was going. The third best thing? He skimmed the cream offin' Daddy and then ran him off. Fourth best thing? He hired that JYD broad as his mouthpiece and then turned her loose in a Colorado courtroom. Fifth? He grabbed a hammer & a tong and took off after Buss after he quit Vs. Phoenix. Sixth best thing? He let Artest see him nude in the showers. Seventh best thing? He used Ariza and then ran him off. Eighth? Made a man outta Odom by dangling Artest (carrot) in front of him. Nineth? He acknowledged Fish when Fish slapped him upside the cocksucker early on in Game 7. Tenth? He let Artest make a monkey outta Pierce last June, late Game 7.

[John Basedow]

the best thing he ever did was eliminate college. The second best thing? He told stern exactly where he was going. The third best thing? He skimmed the cream offin' daddy and then ran him off. Fourth best thing? He hired that jyd broad as his mouthpiece and then turned her loose in a colorado courtroom. Fifth? He grabbed a hammer & a tong and took off after buss after he quit vs. Phoenix. Sixth best thing? He let artest see him nude in the showers. Seventh best thing? He used ariza and then ran him off. Eighth? Made a man outta odom by dangling artest (carrot) in front of him. Nineth? He acknowledged fish when fish slapped upside the cocksucker early on in game 7. Tenth? He let artest make a monkey outta pierce last june.

Giuseppe

[Fpoonsie]

Favorite part of the movie is when the girl is standing on a corner and pulls up her skirt and a dick falls out.

What the fuck kinda movie IS this?

[Beau]

The best thing he ever did was eliminate college. The second best thing? He told Stern exactly where he was going. The third best thing? He skimmed the cream offin' Daddy and then ran him off. Fourth best thing? He hired that JYD broad as his mouthpiece and then turned her loose in a Colorado courtroom. Fifth? He grabbed a hammer & a tong and took off after Buss after he quit Vs. Phoenix. Sixth best thing? He let Artest see him nude in the showers. Seventh best thing? He used Ariza and then ran him off. Eighth? Made a man outta Odom by dangling Artest (carrot) in front of him. Nineth? He acknowledged Fish when Fish slapped him upside the cocksucker early on in Game 7. Tenth? He let Artest make a monkey outta Pierce last June, late Game 7.

So that's what happened. But what happens if he doesn't make it to LA, that young, immature, spoiled, aloof brat he was entering the Draft? (And that's just speaking to who he was then and the upbringing he had.)

You know the dude, Cully. Pros and cons. What do you think becomes of him and his career if he never plays in LA but Charlotte or a comparable franchise?

[Zelophehad]

This thread fails due to ignorance; the Lakers were anything but a "structured professional...environment" when he got there. Van Exel v. Harris, Ceballos v. Harris, Elden Campbell, firing Harris, bringing in Rodman to create a midseason circus atmosphere for two weeks...etc.

They had talent but they didn't have a structured professional environment until Jackson came in. He garnered the players respect and created that environment.

[Beau]

What the fuck kinda movie IS this?

Winning?

[hater]

Shaq wins 6 straight

[crc21209]

:lol Then the Charlotte Hornets would still probably be around...

[Booharv]

Yeah, the Lakers were in turmoil for much of the nineties. He landed on a talented team so that helped, but it wasn't some great environment by any means.

[hater]

What the fuck kinda movie IS this?

yeah what movie is that??

[Beau]

This thread fails due to ignorance; the Lakers were anything but a "structured professional...environment" when he got there. Van Exel v. Harris, Ceballos v. Harris, Elden Campbell, firing Harris, bringing in Rodman to create a midseason circus atmosphere for two weeks...etc.

They had talent but they didn't have a structured professional environment until Jackson came in. He garnered the players respect and created that environment.

That's bullshit. The Lakers are and were the Lakers. There may have been flux on the roster and they may have not been the best they ever were upstairs as they rebuilt after Magic left the stage, but they were still the Lakers. Still had the ownership, prestige and more than a enough basketball acumen guiding the franchise. They just needed a Shaq to get to the next level and a Phil to take the reins.

But as for entering the League as a young player? LA then is still more than ideal than just about any other franchise he could have gone to - long-term.

[Giuseppe]

So that's what happened. But what happens if he doesn't make it to LA, that young, immature, spoiled, aloof brat he was entering the Draft? (And that's just speaking to who he was then and the upbringing he had.)

You know the dude, Cully. Pros and cons. What do you think becomes of him and his career if he never plays in LA but Charlotte or a comparable franchise?

I won't do it, Beau. He never had any intention of going anywhere besides the Lakers. That was it. He knew he was "special." He knew he could dictate the terms of his destiny even that early on, and had absolutely no hesitation in executing that destiny for his own benefit.

Here's a query:::do you think he's ever looked back in regret/sans CO.?

[lefty]

What the fuck kinda movie IS this?
+1 :lmao

[Giuseppe]

I just hope Swords was the star in it.

[TheMACHINE]

Say he actually does end up in Charlotte, stays there for his entire career or only moves onto another team that's of comparable stature, market, means, etc. Does he ever become 'Kobe Bryant'?

He was an immature high-school kid coming out. Even in the structured, professional and winning environment of the Lakers organization his personality threatened to prevent the team from meeting its potential - can't imagine how all of his antics and immaturity would have played out on a young team he was charged with leading... how that would mold both he and his image moving forward in the league.

Let's face it, Kobe's been coddled with more talent and ipmeans than any star of his generation - the Lakers are spending $21M more than the Spurs this year, for example, and we all know what the Lakers prestige and location has done for them when it comes to acquiring talent.

We all saw what happened when Shaq left. We all saw how it took him being humbled a bit by the losing from 2005-07 to accept and embrace the help of another All-NBA player in Gasol to get him back to the top.

Basically, it's hard not to imagine Kobe becoming an All-World talent on a bad team. Almost a Mitch Richmond of sorts, only more talented and more of a malcontent.

Food for thought...

Can someone from a parallel universe please answer this question?

[Beau]

I won't do it, Beau. He never had any intention of going anywhere besides the Lakers. That was it. He knew he was "special." He knew he could dictate the terms of his destiny even that early on, and had absolutely no hesitation in executing that destiny for his own benefit.

If you won't do it, you won't do it. But the question's posed to see how much of his success is tied to being a Laker and not just his undeniable talent and ability to translate it to a team game.


Here's a query:::do you think he's ever looked back in regret/sans CO.?

Actually, I kind of do. But only because of his personality, good/great never being good/great enough.

Most would probably look back and think "Fuck... Probably could have done shit a little better and had a little better outcome, but it's hard to complain. How many people can say they've done what I've done," or something to that effect.

I don't think Kobe genuinely looks at that shit with a normal perspective. If he could go back and change shit to enhance himself and his career, he would. He wouldn't be content with the end result if he could better it - even if that meant more work or pain in the process. Good enough is never enough, methinks.

That's the way I view Kobe and his mindset.

[midnightpulp]

He has no championships.

Without the pedigree, prestige, and the endless pockets of the Laker organization, Kobe's career would likely parallel McGrady's or Vince Carter's. He's definitely better than those players (prime McGrady was every bit as good as Kobe, however), but unless the team he's on surrounds him with a top 3 frontline, it's doubtful that he would win a championship.

Kobe's not the kind of player that would be able to take the '96 Charlotte Hornets, or another similar small market franchise, and vault them into the NBA's elite.

[Gutter92]

If he wasn't in LA, he airballs 4 shots for Charlotte in the playoffs, there is no Shaq daddy to talk to him while he's sobbing on his way off the court, his confidence is forever ruined, he becomes a 20 ppg player never to leave the 2nd round.

[midnightpulp]

And I don't know why Lakers fans have such a problem admitting that Kobe has played alongside more talent than any other superstar in the post-Jordan era. It's a testament to their organization that they were able to do such. Many franchises waste their superstar's prime years by pinching pennies and making idiotic personnel decisions, e.g. The Minnesota Timberwolves, so this is something Lakers fans should celebrate, not scoff.

Kobe is indeed overrated, but the Lakers organization isn't, and the latter is all that should matter. Unless of course you're a history2b or TheMachine who roots for the back of the jersey and not the front.

[TheMACHINE]

And I don't know why Lakers fans have such a problem admitting that Kobe has played alongside more talent than any other superstar in the post-Jordan era. It's a testament to their organization that they were able to do such. Many franchises waste their superstar's prime years by pinching pennies and making idiotic personnel decisions, e.g. The Minnesota Timberwolves, so this is something Lakers fans should celebrate, not scoff.

Kobe is indeed overrated, but the Lakers organization isn't, and the latter is all that should matter. Unless of course you're a history2b or TheMachine who roots for the back of the jersey and not the front.

Lol midnight thinking I'm a kobe fan boy

[midnightpulp]

Lol midnight thinking I'm a kobe fan boy

Maybe you're just trolling GNSF, but judging by your posts on here, I have no reason to believe otherwise.

[Zelophehad]

And I don't know why Lakers fans have such a problem admitting that Kobe has played alongside more talent than any other superstar in the post-Jordan era. It's a testament to their organization that they were able to do such. Many franchises waste their superstar's prime years by pinching pennies and making idiotic personnel decisions, e.g. The Minnesota Timberwolves, so this is something Lakers fans should celebrate, not scoff.

Kobe is indeed overrated, but the Lakers organization isn't, and the latter is all that should matter. Unless of course you're a history2b or TheMachine who roots for the back of the jersey and not the front.
People really forget the chaos that was that Lakers team until Jackson arrived. West was acquiring talent but they had no idea how to coach or discipline it.

[Beau]

Beau knows quality posts.

midnight with some quality posts. :tu

[midnightpulp]

People really forget the chaos that was that Lakers team until Jackson arrived. West was acquiring talent but they had no idea how to coach or discipline it.

See my avatar :lol

But given the Lakers' history, Buss's commitment to winning, and the recent acquisition of Shaquille O'Neal, you knew it was just a matter of time before they broke through and won a title.

[Beau]

People really forget the chaos that was that Lakers team until Jackson arrived. West was acquiring talent but they had no idea how to coach or discipline it.

About 99% of the League would kill for the Lakers problems. They had a hiccup. But they still had the talent, means and franchise stability to know it was only a hiccup.

Their problems, when considering what generally happens to teams after their championship warhorses have left the stage, weren't shit...

[Giuseppe]

.

Hey, Midge, I'm jell. Kor I. spanked you. How'd that feel? I want her to spank me.

[Giuseppe]

But given the Lakers' history, Buss's commitment to winning

Kobe had to remind him in at the point of his Italian loafers in '07.

[Beau]

Kobe had to remind him in at the point of his Italian loafers in '07.

Nice we you need only remind, not change a mind or MO.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe talked the talk during the Daddy years and then made good on that talk after Daddy was rinsed. Just because MSM doesn't cite his accomplishments don't mean they didn't take place. Bryant ran Daddy off. It proved genius. Bryant forgave Jackson his trespasses. It proved genius. Bryant extorted Buss into getting off his Lazy Boy and acting like somebody. It proved genius. Bryant learned his lessons and when he couldn't get it off (late Game 7) he gave it away. It proved genius.

[TheGreatest23]

Shaq wins 6 straight

that would suck for the Spurs.

[BlackSwordsMan]

only the spurs?

[TheGreatest23]

only the spurs?
6 straight championships for daddy means a majority of the spurs titles would be gone. Am i not correct?

[Beau]

Kobe talked the talk during the Daddy years and then made good on that talk after Daddy was rinsed. Just because MSM doesn't cite his accomplishments don't mean they didn't take place. Bryant ran Daddy off. It proved genius. Bryant forgave Jackson his trespasses. It proved genius. Bryant extorted Buss into getting off his Lazy Boy and acting like somebody. It proved genius. Bryant learned his lessons and when he couldn't get it off (late Game 7) he gave it away. It proved genius.

His genius would have been wasted just about anywhere other than LA, iow...

[Giuseppe]

His genius would have been wasted just about anywhere other than LA, iow...

I never think about that, Beau. He was so right about Daddy. Phil returning with Bryant still there confirms Kobe's far reaching wisdom in that matter.

He was languishing, wasting his prime's prime while Buss was asleep at the wheel. Did Bryant just accept it because the Lakers had sided him during Colorado? No, what he did by going after Buss saved our franchise and finished the bridge that Kobe had started by making Daddy leave.

[ambchang]

Probably the Karl Malone of SG. One of the all-time greats, no championships (providing he is stupid enough to stay with the Hornets during FA), and would be more known for his sex scandals than for his on-court performance.

On the other hand, LA would not have a 3-peat, definitely win 01, likely 00, but probably not going to win 03.

[JamStone]

First of all, I find it hard to believe that Kobe would have spent his entire career with the Hornets because his ego wouldn't let him not win. So he'd whine his way out of there or in this day and age of NBA free agency, he would have left for a team like the Lakers anyway. But I'll go ahead and go with the presumption that he stays with the Hornets. He's no Jordan and there hasn't been a perimeter player since Jordan with the innate and intangible ability in the past 12 or so years since Jordan to be capable of being the foundation of a championship team. I'd say only LeBron comes close, and he obviously couldn't either. Especially in an era where Shaq and Duncan dominated the league in terms of championships. Is it possible for Kobe to have eeked out maybe one championship in that time, like the Pistons did in 2004? I guess possible if everything was just perfect and had just the right pieces around him and got extremely lucky. But it's very unlikely.

I will say this though. If he started his career with the Hornets and stayed there for his entire career, assuming the same amount of games as he has played, he'd probably be right around 30,000 career points at this point. And with much fewer playoff games, he'd probably have a much more legitimate shot at becoming the NBA career points leader by the end of his career than he is now.

He wouldn't have the pomp and circumstance and hype he has as a Laker. He wouldn't be revered without the championship success. He'd be like a Dominique Wilkins or a healthy T-Mac with much more longevity and durability. But he would have a very real and sincere shot at surpassing Kareem's career point total, especially if he had a couple more of those 30-35 PPG seasons instead of just two.

But if he stayed with the Hornets his entire career, I think he'd be viewed much like Dominique with a little more cache because of what his career scoring numbers would be like, and I think he might have a couple of strong post seasons when the Hornets were still in the Eastern Conference, so perhaps being able to get to the ECF once or twice and if lucky maybe a Finals appearance or two, for instance, in the 2002, 2003 seasons when the New Jersey Nets made it.

[TheMACHINE]

lol spurs fans day dreaming "what if"

[Beau]

I never think about that, Beau. He was so right about Daddy. Phil returning with Bryant still there confirms Kobe's far reaching wisdom in that matter.

He was languishing, wasting his prime's prime while Buss was asleep at the wheel. Did Bryant just accept it because the Lakers had sided him during Colorado? No, what he did by going after Buss saved our franchise and finished the bridge that Kobe had started by making Daddy leave.

In hindsight and with the benefit of some good fortune, Kobe's decisions/transgressions/sins have all seemingly been rewarded or proven to be beneficial in the end. Shaq was a slug, he wouldn't have become the professionally-driven athlete the Lakers needed him to be to lead the franchise, which would have led to them likely paying dearly on the back end.

No doubt Kobe's led a charmed/soul-selling kind of life NBA life. And if it's the latter, I commend his commitment to winning.

[Kyle Orton]

I used to think quitting/calling out your front office/threatening to leave in free agency or demand a trade was never right, but then I realized how the Suns' 2010 season only happened because Nash decided to raise hell and light a fire under Kerr and Sarver's asses in 2009 to actually have an off season plan.

Nash going back to playing his hardest every night and never voicing any displeasure, even after he drops 30 and 11 in a loss, is the reason why Sarver decided to let Amare leave for nothing and knowingly turn the Suns into a shitty .500 team. If Nash did what Kobe did and told Sarver he'd demand a trade if Amare wasn't resigned, maybe he takes a beating for it in the media, but I bet Amare is still wearing a Suns uniform.

Would the Lakers have turned it around after 2005-2007 if Kobe didn't start making noise? Who knows, but it sure as hell didn't seem like Buss was in any kind of a rush to make a Gasol like trade before Kobe said something.

[Beau]

First of all, I find it hard to believe that Kobe would have spent his entire career with the Hornets because his ego wouldn't let him not win. So he'd whine his way out of there or in this day and age of NBA free agency, he would have left for a team like the Lakers anyway. But I'll go ahead and go with the presumption that he stays with the Hornets. He's no Jordan and there hasn't been a perimeter player since Jordan with the innate and intangible ability in the past 12 or so years since Jordan to be capable of being the foundation of a championship team. I'd say only LeBron comes close, and he obviously couldn't either. Especially in an era where Shaq and Duncan dominated the league in terms of championships. Is it possible for Kobe to have eeked out maybe one championship in that time, like the Pistons did in 2004? I guess possible if everything was just perfect and had just the right pieces around him and got extremely lucky. But it's very unlikely.

I will say this though. If he started his career with the Hornets and stayed there for his entire career, assuming the same amount of games as he has played, he'd probably be right around 30,000 career points at this point. And with much fewer playoff games, he'd probably have a much more legitimate shot at becoming the NBA career points leader by the end of his career than he is now.

He wouldn't have the pomp and circumstance and hype he has as a Laker. He wouldn't be revered without the championship success. He'd be like a Dominique Wilkins or a healthy T-Mac with much more longevity and durability. But he would have a very real and sincere shot at surpassing Kareem's career point total, especially if he had a couple more of those 30-35 PPG seasons instead of just two.

But if he stayed with the Hornets his entire career, I think he'd be viewed much like Dominique with a little more cache because of what his career scoring numbers would be like, and I think he might have a couple of strong post seasons when the Hornets were still in the Eastern Conference, so perhaps being able to get to the ECF once or twice and if lucky maybe a Finals appearance or two, for instance, in the 2002, 2003 seasons when the New Jersey Nets made it.

Solid. :tu

Actually think a Dominique-type legacy is probably the most apt. Kobe's the better player but not so much so that it would change the legacy to any great degree. Better degree, probably. But not a great degree.

Also agree that'd he'd likely be chasing the scoring title, health willing. Possible that he finds himself getting run into the ground on a team he tries to carry from Day 1 entering the league, though.

But if he had the same health trajectory, coming out of high school, playing the position and having the skillset he did... he would have definitely been staring Kareem sooner or later. And like you said, the pomp and circumstance would have been lacking. Seriously lacking, imo - think about how hard it's been for Kobe's personality to take traction when given the outlet and favor he's been given with the Lakers... No way does that play as well in Charlotte or any other similar franchise that he may have went to when given the option.

[midnightpulp]

I never think about that, Beau. He was so right about Daddy. Phil returning with Bryant still there confirms Kobe's far reaching wisdom in that matter.

He was languishing, wasting his prime's prime while Buss was asleep at the wheel. Did Bryant just accept it because the Lakers had sided him during Colorado? No, what he did by going after Buss saved our franchise and finished the bridge that Kobe had started by making Daddy leave.

If there were ever a perfect example of hindsight bias, this is it.

[Beau]

I used to think quitting/calling out your front office/threatening to leave in free agency or demand a trade was never right, but then I realized how the Suns' 2010 season only happened because Nash decided to raise hell and light a fire under Kerr and Sarver's asses in 2009 to actually have an off season plan.

Nash going back to playing his hardest every night and never voicing any displeasure, even after he drops 30 and 11 in a loss, is the reason why Sarver decided to let Amare leave for nothing and knowingly turn the Suns into a shitty .500 team. If Nash did what Kobe did and told Sarver he'd demand a trade if Amare wasn't resigned, maybe he takes a beating for it in the media, but I bet Amare is still wearing a Suns uniform.

Would the Lakers have turned it around after 2005-2007 if Kobe didn't start making noise? Who knows, but it sure as hell didn't seem like Buss was in any kind of a rush to make a Gasol like trade before Kobe said something.

Love it or hate it, love Kobe or hate em... results are results. And as a fan, it's almost solely about results.

We've got our Catholic priests and public officials to be our moral guides...

[TheGreatest23]

Duncan should have man'd up after 2008 and lit a fire under FO.

[Koolaid_Man]

Say he actually does end up in Charlotte, stays there for his entire career or only moves onto another team that's of comparable stature, market, means, etc. Does he ever become 'Kobe Bryant'?

He was an immature high-school kid coming out. Even in the structured, professional and winning environment of the Lakers organization his personality threatened to prevent the team from meeting its potential - can't imagine how all of his antics and immaturity would have played out on a young team he was charged with leading... how that would mold both he and his image moving forward in the league.

Let's face it, Kobe's been coddled with more talent and means than any star of his generation - the Lakers are spending $21M more than the Spurs this year, for example, and we all know what the Lakers prestige and location has done for them when it comes to acquiring talent.

We all saw what happened when Shaq left. We all saw how it took him being humbled a bit by the losing from 2005-07 to accept and embrace the help of another All-NBA player in Gasol to get him back to the top.

Basically, it's hard not to imagine Kobe becoming an All-World talent on a bad team. Almost a Mitch Richmond of sorts, only more talented and more of a malcontent.

Food for thought...


same thing that woulda happened had you never been born....Just Like Len Bias' coke binge....Lakers still win

[midnightpulp]

same thing that woulda happened had you never been born....Just Like Len Bias' coke binge....Lakers still win

And AIDS is still a homosexual :toast

[Daddy_Of_All_Trolls]

Charlotte never would have drafted him if it weren't for the pre draft deal they made with the Lakers to trade him for Vlade Divac. That's all documented. So, a team drafting 14-23 might have taken him, pending no more deals.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_1996.html

If no one does, Lakers draft him with pick 24 and may pass on Derek Fisher. The 13th pick was as high as Jerry West could deal for. I am sure he could have made a deal for a better slot than 24, we just don't know which one. New Jersey was going to take him at #8, but West talked them out of it.

The Knicks had 3 selections, 18, 19, 21. Maybe they take him. Cleveland picked Ilgauskus at 20, maybe since they chose a center, they take Divac and trade with LA. Nash was taken after Kobe, maybe the Suns grab Byant and Steve ends up in LA. Maybe if the dog hadn't have stopped to shit he catches the fox.

[cobbler]

That's bullshit. The Lakers are and were the Lakers. There may have been flux on the roster and they may have not been the best they ever were upstairs as they rebuilt after Magic left the stage, but they were still the Lakers. Still had the ownership, prestige and more than a enough basketball acumen guiding the franchise. They just needed a Shaq to get to the next level and a Phil to take the reins.

But as for entering the League as a young player? LA then is still more than ideal than just about any other franchise he could have gone to - long-term.

Not true. Had Shaq actually embraced Kobe instead of snubbing him the Lakers win 6 or 7. Kobe was one of the first to come out so early and unlike today where teams coddle the young stars, the Lakers Vets, staff, and Shaq made it as difficult as they could for him. They wanted the kid to prove his worth.

[cobbler]

I used to think quitting/calling out your front office/threatening to leave in free agency or demand a trade was never right, but then I realized how the Suns' 2010 season only happened because Nash decided to raise hell and light a fire under Kerr and Sarver's asses in 2009 to actually have an off season plan.

Nash going back to playing his hardest every night and never voicing any displeasure, even after he drops 30 and 11 in a loss, is the reason why Sarver decided to let Amare leave for nothing and knowingly turn the Suns into a shitty .500 team. If Nash did what Kobe did and told Sarver he'd demand a trade if Amare wasn't resigned, maybe he takes a beating for it in the media, but I bet Amare is still wearing a Suns uniform.

Would the Lakers have turned it around after 2005-2007 if Kobe didn't start making noise? Who knows, but it sure as hell didn't seem like Buss was in any kind of a rush to make a Gasol like trade before Kobe said something.

+1 sign of the times.

I wanted him traded when he threatend to leave like many Laker fans. In hindsight as you said, the times have changed. You either speak up or get left behind.

[Kyle Orton]

Yup, there are even examples of back further when speaking up proved to be beneficial. Magic Johnson mighta looked like a dick getting Paul Westhead fired after Westhead coached him to a championship but it's hard to argue replacing Westhead with Riley wasn't a forward move.

I can't remember if Jordan played a role in getting Doug Collins out of Chicago (but I'm pretty sure he did), and like the Magic Johnson situation it's hard to argue against the results that coaching change produced.

As a fan, when you see your team drag its feet for 2-3 straight years without any real plan or apparent effort to get better, you naturally get pissed off. When a player sees the same thing he's gonna have the same reaction.

[cobbler]

Yup, there are even examples of back further when speaking up proved to be beneficial. Magic Johnson mighta looked like a dick getting Paul Westhead fired after Westhead coached him to a championship but it's hard to argue replacing Westhead with Riley wasn't a forward move.

I can't remember if Jordan played a role in getting Doug Collins out of Chicago (but I'm pretty sure he did), and like the Magic Johnson situation it's hard to argue against the results that coaching change produced.

As a fan, when you see your team drag its feet for 2-3 straight years without any real plan or apparent effort to get better, you naturally get pissed off. When a player sees the same thing he's gonna have the same reaction.

Especially when your owner has made the promise of moves to keep you employed there (2 years prior) with none having been attempted since. Like I said, I was furious at the time and wanted him gone. IN hindsight, he did what had to be done. Simple as that and the results are pure proof.

[Zelophehad]

Wow, you have to be a real Kobe dick sucker to credit him with the Gasol trade.

[Zelophehad]

Embarrassing.

[Giuseppe]

If there were ever a perfect example of hindsight bias, this is it.

Be that as it may. Bryant's decisions and actions in the scope of basketball have proven to be midas.

[Giuseppe]

Especially when your owner has made the promise of moves to keep you employed there (2 years prior) with none having been attempted since. Like I said, I was furious at the time and wanted him gone. IN hindsight, he did what had to be done. Simple as that and the results are pure proof.

Thank you.

Winning NBA Championships is like making sausage:::it ain't pretty.

[Jt.ONE]

yeah basically what jam said, he'd be another t-mac

imho

[Beau]

same thing that woulda happened had you never been born....Just Like Len Bias' coke binge....Lakers still win

That whitewater done gone to your head, boy. Can't believe you sick fucks would take a time-honored tradition like whitewater rafting and turn it into some gay sex act.

Reprehensible, really... SMGDH

[JamStone]

And like you said, the pomp and circumstance would have been lacking. Seriously lacking, imo - think about how hard it's been for Kobe's personality to take traction when given the outlet and favor he's been given with the Lakers... No way does that play as well in Charlotte or any other similar franchise that he may have went to when given the option.

Directly related to the Denver incident though, and subsequent stories about him being a jerk to teammates. Remember before that, Kobe was the all American professional athlete on McDonald's and Sprite commercials. Very squeaky clean image, very likable and charismatic personality. Your opinion about how his personality being hard to take traction even as a Laker has come over time since the Denver incident and with the over publicized bad press he's gotten about berating teammates. His personality with teammates wouldn't have gotten as publicized if he played for the Hornets. And unless he still sexually assaulted a girl as a Hornet and it got out in the media, he could have at least still had that squeaky clean image and likable personality.

He wouldn't have gotten the hype because of the organization he played for and the city he played in, but not for lack of being able to sell his personality.

[Beau]

Charlotte never would have drafted him if it weren't for the pre draft deal they made with the Lakers to trade him for Vlade Divac. That's all documented. So, a team drafting 14-23 might have taken him, pending no more deals.

The point's to ask how much of Kobe's success and standing in the league is tied to being a Laker. There's always been the media/fan push to find the next Jordan and Kobe is certainly the closest we've seen since, but Jordan's largely viewed as the GOAT - and Top-3 or so by those that would disagree.

But if Kobe's believed to be a Wilkins or McGrady had he not found his way to LA, how can he be considered a Top-10 player of all-time? That seems to be conventional wisdom these days.

I'm not shitting on Kobe or saying he doesn't deserve to be in the discussion as a Top-10 player, but I would like to hear the argument. If he's a McGrady or Wilkins without the benefit of LA, should he be rewarded with praise of All-Time Top-10 degree?


Not true. Had Shaq actually embraced Kobe instead of snubbing him the Lakers win 6 or 7. Kobe was one of the first to come out so early and unlike today where teams coddle the young stars, the Lakers Vets, staff, and Shaq made it as difficult as they could for him. They wanted the kid to prove his worth.

Which was a godsend. Kobe needed that tough-love and veteran presence to check him. Kobe had to prove himself. He wasn't handed the keys to a franchise the way a LeBron was. He was surrounded by great players on the court, legends in the front office and around the team, and he had the benefit of stable ownership from Day 1. One of the most prolific and storied franchises in all of sport.


Directly related to the Denver incident though, and subsequent stories about him being a jerk to teammates. Remember before that, Kobe was the all American professional athlete on McDonald's and Sprite commercials. Very squeaky clean image, very likable and charismatic personality. Your opinion about how his personality being hard to take traction even as a Laker has come over time since the Denver incident and with the over publicized bad press he's gotten about berating teammates. His personality with teammates wouldn't have gotten as publicized if he played for the Hornets. And unless he still sexually assaulted a girl as a Hornet and it got out in the media, he could have at least still had that squeaky clean image and likable personality.

He wouldn't have gotten the hype because of the organization he played for and the city he played in, but not for lack of being able to sell his personality.

To me, squeaky clean, clean-cut and likable was code for: he doesn't go out much, we don't know much about him, he's an introvert, he's yet to show up on the police blotter and he's a star player on a marquee team.

I didn't get charismatic or likable. It was extremely manufactured, in my view. And had he not been in LA, those handlers wouldn't have existed and the shine that comes from the Lakers organization wouldn't have been there to aid him in finding endorsements and marketing campaigns.

Kobe's just not the cult of personality that grabs a public's attention. Mad game, but if he's on an also-ran or non-contender just putting up numbers and being the aloof introvert he was coming into the league, and still is a bit to this day, it's hard to imagine him as much more than a great basketball player. Not the star he's become - and certainly not being put in such lofty company looking down on a guy like Nique.

[21_Blessings]

But if Kobe's believed to be a Wilkins or McGrady

Yeah you're dumb. No point for anybody to ever read anything else you post.

[Giuseppe]

What's positively incredible is Bryant's goal(s) at 17 is what has taken place in the interim:::the "countless" championships, the development of his personal game to fine precision, the stark separation from his contemporaries, and then his "replacements" in all facets of game, especially the mental aspects; the early loss of [fear of failure]...I don't believe any NBA player after Jordan lost that debilitating anguish quicker than Bryant. It has enabled him and the franchise to make the hard choices with clarity & finality.

Bryant has surpassed himself.

[Beau]

Yeah you're dumb. No point for anybody to ever read anything else you post.

Whatever you do, don't read this.