Un-freaking-believable

[DarrinS]

When state dept. talking head PJ Crowley was asked if the murder of two U.S. airmen at the Frankfurt airport was a terrorist attack:

"Was the shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords a terrorist attack? I mean, you have to look at the evidence and look at the motivation and then you make a judgment".


WTF?

6gHSImFU1YU


http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/files/2009/12/suicide_of_the_west.jpg

[George Gervin's Afro]

When state dept. talking head PJ Crowley was asked if the murder of two U.S. airmen at the Frankfurt airport was a terrorist attack:

"Was the shooting of Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords a terrorist attack? I mean, you have to look at the evidence and look at the motivation and then you make a judgment".


WTF?

6gHSImFU1YU


http://ironicsurrealism.blogivists.com/files/2009/12/suicide_of_the_west.jpg

why does it matter?

[Winehole23]

Miss the terror hype? Pobrecito.

[RandomGuy]

There is a gulf between knowing that it *probably* was terrorism and being able to prove it, and assert it as a fact.

What is unbelievable is how fucktardedly partisan you are about everything that comes down the pike.

[TeyshaBlue]

There is a gulf between knowing that it *probably* was terrorism and being able to prove it, and assert it as a fact.

What is unbelievable is how fucktardedly partisan you are about everything that comes down the pike.

If all you have is a hammer.....

[DarrinS]

There is a gulf between knowing that it *probably* was terrorism and being able to prove it, and assert it as a fact.

What is unbelievable is how fucktardedly partisan you are about everything that comes down the pike.



I just find it strange that the same bunch that jumped on the "crosshairs" metaphor can't bring themselves to say jihad or radical Islam when, by all accounts, the shooter yelled "Alahu Akbhar". If that's fuckktardedly partisan, so be it.

[Drachen]

If you just want to be general (some muslim attacking some westerner), sure, I guess I would say it is terrorism. To get into semantics, however, I would say "I don't know." This just might be a crime of passion for some perceived sleight. I would probably define terrorism as a war strategy and don't see what kind of tactical purpose this would serve (other than maybe "hey we can still get you"). The fact that the targets were military personnel may lean the other way. So really the answer is we don't know.

[clambake]

any attack on muslims is defined as collateral.

any attack by muslims...or anyone else, is defined as terrorism.


darrin can't see the pattern.

[Halberto]

Jesus... generalize much? I just don't see little isolated events like this taking down Western civilization, especially due to the ignorance from Liberals. Kind of a stretch if you ask me.

[DarrinS]

Jesus... generalize much? I just don't see little isolated events like this taking down Western civilization, especially due to the ignorance from Liberals. Kind of a stretch if you ask me.


Please visit Europe.

[MannyIsGod]

When did you last visit Europe, Darrin?

[clambake]

this should be good. tell us about europe, d.

[clambake]

dammit manny

[Viva Las Espuelas]

How many people here feel/believe the ft hood incident was a terrorist attack?

[George Gervin's Afro]

How many people here feel/believe the ft hood incident was a terrorist attack?

is any muslim who commits murder a terrorist?

[DarrinS]

How many people here feel/believe the ft hood incident was a terrorist attack?


Just a very, very isolated incident by a crazy person. Being Muslim was only a coincidence.

Sincerely,

Denial

[George Gervin's Afro]

Just a very, very isolated incident by a crazy person. Being Muslim was only a coincidence.

Sincerely,

Denial

so the Vriginia Tech shooter was a terrorist?


nice logic

[MannyIsGod]

How many people here feel/believe the ft hood incident was a terrorist attack?

An attack on military personal makes it very hard to call it a terrorist attack, imo.

[Gutter92]

so the Vriginia Tech shooter was a terrorist?


nice logic


Of course not, he wasn't muslim...right darrins? Seems like to you that's a pre-requisite.

[Gutter92]

An attack on military personal makes it very hard to call it a terrorist attack, imo.


Terrorism - "a calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against CIVILIANS...

[DarrinS]

An attack on military personal makes it very hard to call it a terrorist attack, imo.



Why?

[MannyIsGod]

because then its just this thing we call "war", Darrin.

[TeyshaBlue]

because then its just this thing we call "war", Darrin.
Why this bbs doesn't have a facepalm emoticon is beyond me.
http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/fack.png


Or this one. http://www.audioandanarchy.com/images/smilies/really1.png

[LnGrrrR]

I just find it strange that the same bunch that jumped on the "crosshairs" metaphor can't bring themselves to say jihad or radical Islam when, by all accounts, the shooter yelled "Alahu Akbhar". If that's fuckktardedly partisan, so be it.

You're aware that racism =/= terrorism right? Did the killer have a political or sociological goal they were espousing, using this murder to further their ends?

[LnGrrrR]

To be fair to Darrin, an attack against a military member doesn't necessarily equate "war". And terrorist attacks can occur against military members, but the line is blurry. For instance, the Khobar Towers incident is considered a terrorist attack.

[MannyIsGod]

To be fair to Darrin, an attack against a military member doesn't necessarily equate "war". And terrorist attacks can occur against military members, but the line is blurry. For instance, the Khobar Towers incident is considered a terrorist attack.

Considered by whom, LNG? The act of calling something a terrorist attack is usually one who's only aim is propaganda. '

No one in the United States ever calls the nuclear bombings in WW2 terrorist acts yet they fit the bill for terrorism more than many things we label terrorism today.

[RandomGuy]

I just find it strange that the same bunch that jumped on the "crosshairs" metaphor can't bring themselves to say jihad or radical Islam when, by all accounts, the shooter yelled "Alahu Akbhar". If that's fuckktardedly partisan, so be it.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post, so I will try to keep it simple.

Everybody, including the administration official in question, can probably guess it was an act of terrorism.

What someone in an offical capacity can't really do, is comment with a solid assertion without even preliminary results of any real investigation. That is irresponsible.

What is fucktardedly partisan by your dumb ass, is to suggest that an official of the US government should publically and officiall state something as fact, even if it is readily fairly obvious, without any more formal investigation being upheld.

It veers into the realm of unbelievably fucktardedly partisan, because you would probably not imply that our government should be that irresponsible if the administration had been a Republican one, especially when that administration, being constrained by the same things offically and diplomatically would have said pretty much the exact same thing.

Are you implying that our government should be irresponsible to suit your emotional needs Darrin?

[RandomGuy]

How many people here feel/believe the ft hood incident was a terrorist attack?

I would say no. Generally terrorism has some general political aim.

I think this guy was simply a crazy. He would have snapped no matter what, but latched on to an ideology seeped in terrorism.

I don't see the distinction as very important though. Murderous fucks are murderous fucks, no matter what political label you might want to slap on them.

[LnGrrrR]

Considered by whom, LNG? The act of calling something a terrorist attack is usually one who's only aim is propaganda. '

Really Manny? I mean, I'm not the one who decides what does and doesn't fall under the definition of "terrorism", but to imply that the only people defining things as "terrorism" are those with a goal in hand is poor reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers

I'm assuming that historians as well as various other people without an agenda would define the Khobar Towers as a terrorist attack.


No one in the United States ever calls the nuclear bombings in WW2 terrorist acts yet they fit the bill for terrorism more than many things we label terrorism today.

That's because we were actively at war with Japan. It's a bit of a muddy line, to be sure. But many things that are labeled "terrorism" today wouldn't be "terrorism" if we were actively at war with the enemy.

Whether nuclear weapons are "terrorist" weapons is an interesting argument, but a bit of a sidebar. As well, while we did deploy the nuke as a means to create fear/dominance/etc, we told the Japanese people in advance and asked for surrender, so it wasn't your typical terrorist attack (which usually requires some element of surprise.)

[MannyIsGod]

Really Manny? I mean, I'm not the one who decides what does and doesn't fall under the definition of "terrorism", but to imply that the only people defining things as "terrorism" are those with a goal in hand is poor reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers

I'm assuming that historians as well as various other people without an agenda would define the Khobar Towers as a terrorist attack.
[quote]

How would middle east historians see it?



[quote]
That's because we were actively at war with Japan. It's a bit of a muddy line, to be sure. But many things that are labeled "terrorism" today wouldn't be "terrorism" if we were actively at war with the enemy.

Whether nuclear weapons are "terrorist" weapons is an interesting argument, but a bit of a sidebar. As well, while we did deploy the nuke as a means to create fear/dominance/etc, we told the Japanese people in advance and asked for surrender, so it wasn't your typical terrorist attack (which usually requires some element of surprise.)



Was Perl Harbor an act of terrorism? There was no active war at the time of its occurrence.

In any event I think you missed my larger point that the word terrorism only serves to give a moral high ground. There are millions if not billions of people across the world who consider many of our actions as nation to be acts of terrorism. You ask Darrin about those same acts and he calls it something else.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post, so I will try to keep it simple.

Everybody, including the administration official in question, can probably guess it was an act of terrorism.

What someone in an offical capacity can't really do, is comment with a solid assertion without even preliminary results of any real investigation. That is irresponsible.

What is fucktardedly partisan by your dumb ass, is to suggest that an official of the US government should publically and officiall state something as fact, even if it is readily fairly obvious, without any more formal investigation being upheld.

It veers into the realm of unbelievably fucktardedly partisan, because you would probably not imply that our government should be that irresponsible if the administration had been a Republican one, especially when that administration, being constrained by the same things offically and diplomatically would have said pretty much the exact same thing.

Are you implying that our government should be irresponsible to suit your emotional needs Darrin?

but he said Allah is great right before he killed them..

[MannyIsGod]

BTW, one could also argue that prior to those towers being bombed we were already at war with Al Queda considering Bin Laden declared as much.

[MannyIsGod]

LNG, I guess my overall point is that more often than not what determines if an act is terrorism or not is not a textbook definition and how the attack fits into one but rather what side of the conflict you're on.

[LnGrrrR]

How would middle east historians see it?

I don't know; feel free to do the research and ask them. But just saying that the people who call it a terrorist attack are all saying so because they have something to gain from it is a piss-poor argument, along the lines of something mouse would say.


Was Perl Harbor an act of terrorism? There was no active war at the time of its occurrence.

Seeing as how it led to war, most people consider it a "surprise attack" moreso than terrorism. As well, the goal was to do actual damage, not to inspire fear/terror/etc. Finally, the Pearl Harbor attack wasn't based off any political/ideological goal (any more than any other war, that is.)


In any event I think you missed my larger point that the word terrorism only serves to give a moral high ground. There are millions if not billions of people across the world who consider many of our actions as nation to be acts of terrorism. You ask Darrin about those same acts and he calls it something else.

Sure, I agree with that larger statement. I was just clarifying that acts of terrorism can be committed against military personnel.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't know; feel free to do the research and ask them. But just saying that the people who call it a terrorist attack are all saying so because they have something to gain from it is a piss-poor argument, along the lines of something mouse would say.


Its not a piss poor argument at all. Who were the first ones to label the towers bombing a terrorist act?

[MannyIsGod]

Better yet, explain to me how it qualifies as a terrorist attack outside of some one else labeling it as such.

[LnGrrrR]

LNG, I guess my overall point is that more often than not what determines if an act is terrorism or not is not a textbook definition and how the attack fits into one but rather what side of the conflict you're on.

Eh, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Otherwise, the word becomes meaningless. I think that the given definition of terrorism is a useful one, and we shouldn't throw it out because some incidents fall into a gray area.

[LnGrrrR]

Its not a piss poor argument at all. Who were the first ones to label the towers bombing a terrorist act?

I don't know.

Now tell me why I have to disprove that it's a terrorist act? You're the one claiming it isn't, so prove it.

I claim it is because it was a politically motivated attack designed to cause fear/terror.

[MannyIsGod]

Eh, I don't think that's necessarily the case. Otherwise, the word becomes meaningless. I think that the given definition of terrorism is a useful one, and we shouldn't throw it out because some incidents fall into a gray area.

The word IS meaningless. Thats the point! Its not that some incidents fall into a grey area, its that ALL the incidents are a grey area. You have a group who believes it is at war with the united states and is carrying out such a war. You can label the attacks whatever you'd like, but in the end the people are still just as dead.

When the United States first termed the attack a terrorist attack you think they did so without an agenda?

[MannyIsGod]

I don't know.

Now tell me why I have to disprove that it's a terrorist act? You're the one claiming it isn't, so prove it.

I claim it is because it was a politically motivated attack designed to cause fear/terror.

You do realize with the rational you gave I could easily apply that to any strategic act of war ever committed?

For example, Shock and Awe? Was the United States guilty of terrorism on their opening salvos in the Iraq War by your definition and if not then why not?

[LnGrrrR]

BTW, one could also argue that prior to those towers being bombed we were already at war with Al Queda considering Bin Laden declared as much.

Eh, I'd say that's a possibility, but a weak one. Just because one declares war with us doesn't mean the United States enters at war with them. As well, I don't the specifics on a country officially going to "war" with an organization.

[LnGrrrR]

You do realize with the rational you gave I could easily apply that to any strategic act of war ever committed?

For example, Shock and Awe? Was the United States guilty of terrorism on their opening salvos in the Iraq War by your definition and if not then why not?

Again, we were considered officially at "war" at that time, so that throws your statement off.

If we WEREN'T at war, I am relatively sure it would be considered a terrorist attack, yes. But officially going to war changes that distinction.

[MannyIsGod]

LOL so war is only official if the United States accepts it as such.

[DarrinS]

I would say no. Generally terrorism has some general political aim.

I think this guy was simply a crazy. He would have snapped no matter what, but latched on to an ideology seeped in terrorism.

I don't see the distinction as very important though. Murderous fucks are murderous fucks, no matter what political label you might want to slap on them.


This is the exact kind of politically correct, walking on eggshells blather that the Obama state department is looking for. You should apply.

[clambake]

you do realize that the term "terrorism" is a marketing tool, right?

[George Gervin's Afro]

This is the exact kind of politically correct, walking on eggshells blather that the Obama state department is looking for. You should apply.

how do you know the shooter wasn't crazy? what if you come out and prolaimed this is a terrorist attack.!!!.to then find out the dude hadn't taken his meds... and was delusional..

what do you say to the rest of the muslims worlwide?

my bad?

[ChumpDumper]

I mean, you have to look at the evidence and look at the motivation and then you make a judgment.I can see why Darrin would prefer not to look at evidence or use judgment.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I can see why Darrin would prefer not to look at evidence or use judgment.

muslim= kills someone= terrorist attack

[DarrinS]

I can see why Darrin would prefer not to look at evidence or use judgment.


Is there more evidence that the shooter in Frankfurt was motivated by radical Islam than the shooter in Tuscon was motivated by Palin's crosshair metaphor?

Take your time.

[DarrinS]

how do you know the shooter wasn't crazy? what if you come out and prolaimed this is a terrorist attack.!!!.to then find out the dude hadn't taken his meds... and was delusional..

what do you say to the rest of the muslims worlwide?

my bad?



That's fine. If that's the case, then there is a disproportionate amount of crazy in the Muslim population.

[ChumpDumper]

Is there more evidence that the shooter in Frankfurt was motivated by radical Islam than the shooter in Tuscon was motivated by Palin's crosshair metaphor?

Take your time.No time needed.

The only evidence you presented was that the guy is Muslim.

You think they all want to kill you. This is a reflection of your prejudice. It certainly may turn out that this was a terrorist attack once the evidence is actually known, but that doesn't make you less of a bigot.

[ChumpDumper]

That's fine. If that's the case, then there is a disproportionate amount of crazy in the Muslim population.What is that proportion exactly?

Tell us all just how many crazy Muslims you think there are in the world right now.

[LnGrrrR]

The word IS meaningless. Thats the point! Its not that some incidents fall into a grey area, its that ALL the incidents are a grey area. You have a group who believes it is at war with the united states and is carrying out such a war. You can label the attacks whatever you'd like, but in the end the people are still just as dead.

It's not useless at all, because you can't just claim "I'm at war with you!" and you're off the hook.

By going to war, you have to also follow the applications of the Geneva Convention (ie wearing uniforms, fighting lawfully, etc etc)


When the United States first termed the attack a terrorist attack you think they did so without an agenda?

Umm...

http://terrorism.about.com/od/whatisterroris1/p/Terrorism.htm

I don't think the US coined that particular term.

[LnGrrrR]

LOL so war is only official if the United States accepts it as such.

Pretty much. Do you think America is at war with every organization who claims to be at war with us?

[ChumpDumper]

And yes, the Giffords shooting may well turn out to be a terrorist attack. Darrin doesn't want it to be, again because of his prejudice, but there is the possibility of learning more since the shooter is still alive.

[LnGrrrR]

Is there more evidence that the shooter in Frankfurt was motivated by radical Islam than the shooter in Tuscon was motivated by Palin's crosshair metaphor?

Take your time.

Given that the target of the attack in Tucson was an explicitly POLITICAL figure, that lends much more credence to the idea that the shooter in Tucson was politically motivated. (Of course, he might have just been crazy too, or both.)

[LnGrrrR]

That's fine. If that's the case, then there is a disproportionate amount of crazy in the Muslim population.

Define crazy and provide proof, thanks.

[DarrinS]

What is that proportion exactly?

Tell us all just how many crazy Muslims you think there are in the world right now.



Just in my lifetime


1968


June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.


1969


Feb. 18 - Boeing 707 attacked at Zurich, Switzerland, killing the pilot and 3 passengers.


Aug. 29 - TWA 707 hijacked from Rome to Damascus, released with only wounded.


Nov. 27- EL AL office in Athens, Greece attacked. Innocent bystanders killed.


1970


Feb. 21 - Swiss airliner blown up over Switzerland, killing all 47 people on board.


Feb. 23 - PLO terrorists open fire on a busload of Christian pilgrims killing 1 and wounding 2 Americans.


April 21- Bomb explodes aboard a Philippines airliner. All 36 aboard are killed.


Sept. 6 - “Skyjack Sunday” in Jordan. 3 planes (TWA, Swissair, Pan Am) en route to the U.S. hijacked, 400+ hostages, planes blown up in Jordan, Governments agreed to PFLP’s demands, released terrorists from jails and hostages released.


Sept. 14 - The PFLP hijacked TWA flight to Ammon, 4 Americans injured.


1971
Nov. 28 - Jordanian prime minister Tal killed by terrorists at the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo, Egypt.


Dec. - Jordanian ambassador to London, England is shot by hit squad.


1972


Jan. 26 - Bomb explodes on a Yugoslav plane killing all but one passenger.


May 30 - Ben Gurion Airport, Israel attack killed 26, and wounded 78 U.S. citizens from Puerto Rico.


Sept. 5 - Palestinian terrorists seize 11 athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, Germany, 9 hostages and 5 terrorists killed, plus David Berger from Cleveland.


1973


March 2 - Khartoum, Sudan. Cleo Noel, Jr., U.S. ambassador, and George C. Moore, U.S. diplomat, were held hostage and then killed by terrorists at the U.S. Embassy.


Aug. 5 - Suicide squad attacks Athens airport, Greece, killing 3 civilians and injuring 55.


Dec. 17 - Bomb explodes at Pan Am office at Rome, Italy killing 32 and injuring 50+. The terrorists take 7 Italian policemen hostage and hijack an aircraft to Athens, Greece, killing one of them.


1974


March 1 - Diplomats taken hostage from Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum, Sudan, 2 that are killed are Americans.


April 11 - Kiryat Shmona Massacre at an apartment building killing 18 people, 9 were children.


Sept. 8 - Athens, Greece. TWA Flight 841 exploded from bomb in cargo hold, all 88 passengers killed, including 32-year-old Steven Lowe, an American citizen.


Nov. 23 - British DC-10 hijacked at Dubai, UAE, flown to Tunisia where a German passenger was killed.


1975


Jan. 19 - Arab terrorists attack Orly airport, Paris, France, seizing 10 hostages from a bathroom. French provided the terrorists with a plane to fly them to safety in Baghdad, Iraq.


Sept. 30 - Hungarian airplane explodes killing all 64 persons on board.


Dec. 21 - Carlos “The Jackal” holds 11 oil ministers and 59 civilians hostage during the OPEC meeting in Vienna, Austria. Flew to Algeria, got $300,000,000 in ransom money, Carlos and his Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine terrorists escape.


1976


Jan. 1 - 82 innocent travelers are killed aboard a Lebanese plane.


June 27 - Air France airliner hijacked, forced to fly to Uganda. Some 258 passengers and crew are held hostage. 3 passengers killed. July 4th, Israeli commandos rescue the remaining hostages.


Aug. 11 - Terrorists attack Istanbul airport, Turkey, killing 4 civilians (1 from U.S.) and injuring 20.


Dec. 4 - Terrorists occupied the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague, Netherlands, 1 official killed.


Dec. 14 - Passenger train hijacked and passengers were kept hostage, 3 were killed.


1977


Jan. 1 - F.E. Melov U.S. ambassador to Lebanon, and Robert O.Waring, the U.S. economic counselor, kidnapped and later killed in Beirut.


Oct. 13 - Palestinian terrorists hijack a Lufthansa Flight 181 Boeing 737 and order it to fly around a number of Middle East destinations for four days, pilot is killed by the terrorists, 90 hostages rescued.


1978


March 11 - Gail Rubin, niece of U.S. Senator Ribicoff, among 38 people shot to death by terrorists on a beach near Tel Aviv.


June 2 - A bomb kills 2 people at the CHOGM meeting in Sydney Australia.


1979


July 29 - Terrorist bombs two railway stations in Madrid, kills 7.


Nov. 4 - Terrorists seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. 13 freed, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981 - 444 days - at the inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.


1980


April 30 - Terrorists took over the Iranian Embassy in London, holding 26 hostages, 2 of whom died on May 5th after being tortured. Much of the embassy was destroyed by fire.


1981
April 19 - 13 people killed, 177 injured in a terrorist attack in Davao Philippines.


May 13 - Pope John Paul II seriously wounded in assassination attempt in Rome, Italy, by terrorist Mehmet Ali Agca.


Oct. 6 - Egyptian President Anwar Sadat machine gunned dead by Islamic Jihad in Cairo for working for peace. 7 others killed, 28 wounded. The assassins are later executed.


1982


Beginning of the 8 years of terrorism in Lebanon.


July 19 - David Dodge, President of the American University in Beirut kidnapped, spends one year in captivity.


Aug. 19 - Two American citizens, Anne Van Zanten and Grace Cutler, were killed along with 6 others when the PLO bombed a Kosher restaurant in Paris, France.


Sept. 14 - Lebanon’s President Gemayel and 26 others assassinated by a massive car bomb in Beirut.


1983


Mar. 16 - 5 Marines wounded in hand grenade attack on Beirut International Airport.


April 18 - CIA’s Middle East Director, and 83 others are killed, 120 injured in truck bomb on the US Embassy in Lebanon.


Sept. 29 - Gulf Air Flight 771 is bombed, explodes killing all 166 aboard.


Oct. 23 - Simultaneous suicide truck bombs in Lebanon: 1st crashed into lobby of US Marine Corps Headquarters, 241 Marines dead, 82 seriously injured - and 2nd was French compounds killing 58 paratroopers.


Dec. 12 - US Embassy in Kuwait targeted to destroy the building with a truck bomb, attack foiled by guards and the device killed 5 people and injured 80.


1984


Jan. 18 - Malcolm Kerr, President of the American University of Beirut, was killed by two Hizballah gunmen.


Mar. 8 - Rev. Weir and wife kidnapped in Lebanon and held for 16 months.


Mar. 9 - Car bomb kills 80 (22 Americans) and wounds more than 200 civilians when it drove past the checkpoint at the U.S. Embassy in Awkar.


Mar. 16 - Hizballah kidnapped, tortured and killed William Buckley, an officer at the U.S. Embassy in Beirut.


Apr. 12 - Hizballah bombed restaurant adjacent to US Air Force base in Torregon Spain, 18 servicemen killed and 83 Americans wounded.


Sept. 20- US embassy in the Beirut is bombed - 2 servicemen and 23 employees are killed, 21 Americans injured including the U.S. and British Ambassadors. 50+ Lebanese were injured.


Dec. 4 - Terrorists hijacked Kuwait Airlines Flight 221 and demanded the release from Kuwaiti jails of some members, serving sentences for attacks on French and American targets. 2 Americans murdered.


1985


March 16 - US journalist Terry Anderson kidnapped in Lebanon, finally released in Dec. 1991 - 6 years later.


April 5 - Bomb explodes outside Hezbollah headquarters in Beirut killing 80 people.


April 12 - Bombing of U.S. soldier’s favorite restaurant in Madrid, killing 18 and injuring 82.


June 14 - TWA Boeing 727 Flight 847 hijacked en route to Rome, 8 crew and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, U.S. Navy diver was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the hostages were released after the US pressured to release 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.


Sept. 30 - Four Soviet diplomats kidnapped in Lebanon, 1 killed but other three released unharmed after a relative of the terrorist leader’s was kidnapped and killed by the Soviet KGB.


Oct. 7 - Terrorists seize the Italian cruise liner, Achille Lauro, during a cruise in the Mediterranean, taking more than 700 people hostage for 3 days. Disabled U.S. citizen, Leon Klinghoffer, was murdered in front of other hostages by throwing him in the ocean, before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.


Nov. 23 - 98 passengers and crew of an Egyptair Flight 648 are held hostage by Palestinian terrorists in Malta. 5 passengers shot, 2 died, later 57 additional passengers killed when the terrorists set off explosives in the aircraft.


Dec. 27 - Suicide grenade and gun attacks in passenger terminals at Rome and Vienna, Italy airports results in 16 people being killed plus 5 Americans and more than 100 civilians injured.


1986


March 30-April 2nd - A bomb exploded on a TWA flight 840 from Rome as it approached Athens airport. The attack killed 4 U.S. citizens who were sucked through a hole made by the blast, 1 infant, and 9 injured, although the plane safely landed.


April 6 - An explosion at the “La Belle” nightclub in Berlin, U.S. soldiers’ hang-out, was bombed, killing 3 and injuring 230 people, including 79 U.S. soldiers.


Sept. 5 - Pan Am Boeing 747 Flight 73 en route to Frankfurt and on to New York hijacked by Palestinian terrorists, with 379 passengers, including 89 Americans, 22 hostages killed, 127 wounded.


Sept. 9 - Hezballah kidnapped Frank Reed, President of American University in Beirut, and held for 44 months, and Joseph Cicippio, and Edward Tracy who were each held for 5 years.


Sept. 17 - A 10-month series of terrorist bomb attacks in France begins. One bomb in Paris kills 5 and injures 52.


1987


A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and rockets were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.


1988


Feb. 5 - US Marine Corps Lt. Colonel Higgens, Chief of the U.N. Truce Force kidnapped and murdered by Hezbollah.


March 16 - 4000+ Kurdish civilian bodies found after Saddam Hussein ordered nerve gas attack (weapon of mass destruction) in northern Iraq, after they revolted against his rule from Baghdad. 1.5 million relocated, 200,000 disappeared.


April 5 - 122 held hostage after a Kuwaiti Boeing 747 was hijacked and diverted to Iran, then Cyprus. Kuwait refused requests by hijackers to release 17 convicted terrorists. After 15 days the hijackers were granted asylum in Algeria and released their hostages.


June 26 - US Naval Attache killed in Athens, Greece.


Dec. 21 - Pan Am Flight 103 - Boeing 747 from London to New York, blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland, by a bomb. All 259 passengers and 11 on the ground were killed, including 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel.


1989


June 12 - A bomb exploded aboard an unoccupied boat used by U.S. consular staff.


Sept. 19 - 171 passengers killed when French UTA flight 772 explodes in mid-air over Niger.


October 11 - Izmir, Turkey. A bomb went off outside a U.S. military PX.


1990


Feb. - Attack of tour bus in Egypt killing 11.


1991
Feb. 7 - Incirlik Air Base, Turkey, U.S. civilian contractor shot as he was getting into his car.


Oct. 28 - Ankara, Turkey. Victor Marwick, an American soldier serving at the Turkish-American base, Tuslog, was killed and his wife wounded in a car bomb attack.


Oct. 28 - Two car bombings killed a U.S. Air Force Sergeant and severely wounded an Egyptian diplomat in Istanbul.


Nov. 8 - Bomb destroyed part of the American University in Beirut, killing 1 and wounding 12.


1992


March 17 - Israeli Embassy in Buenos Aires, Argentina, destroyed by bomb killing 29, injuring 60.


Hotel in Yemen bombed and U.S. servicemen killed, Operation Restore Hope.


1993


Jan. 25, Virginia, U.S.A. A Pakistani terrorist opened fire with AK-47 on CIA employees standing outside the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and 3 others wounded.


Feb. 26 - World Trade Center in New York badly damaged by a massive bomb by Islamic terrorists. The van bomb was planted in an underground garage and left 6 people dead and 1042 injured and almost � billion dollars in damage.


Feb. 26 - A bomb exploded inside a cafe in downtown Cairo killing 3, 18 wounded, 2 U.S. citizens.


July 5 - In 8 separate incidents, 19 Western tourists traveling in southeastern Turkey were kidnapped, including U.S. citizen Starger, after weeks in captivity, they were released.


Oct - Killing of U. S. soldiers in Somalia.


1994


July 18 - 86 civilians killed and 300 wounded in bomb attack on Jewish social centre in Buneos Aires, Argentina.


July 26 - Israeli Embassy in London is car-bombed, wounding 20.


Air France Flight 8969 is hijacked to crash the plane in Paris but didn’t succeed.
A small bomb explodes on board Philippine Airlines flight 434, killing a Japanese businessman.


1995


Jan. 22 - Islamic Jihad militants blow themselves up amid a group of soldiers near Netanya, killing 21. Operation Bojinka is discovered on a laptop in a Manila, Philippines apartment, in which Osama bin Laden was planning to blow up 12 planes as they flew to the U.S., plus kill the Pope.


March 8 - Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan.


April 9 - Islamic Jihad suicide bomber attacks military convoy in Gaza, killing 7 soldiers and an American tourist.


May 5 - Five foreign oil workers murdered by Islamic GIA terrorists in Algeria.


June 26 - Assassination attempt made against Egyptian President Honsi Mubarak by Islamic radicals who ambushed his motorcade.


July 4 - Six tourists, including two U.S. citizens taken hostage in Kashmir, India. Terrorists demanded the release of Muslim militants held in Indian prisons. On Aug. 13 the decapitated body of the Norwegian hostage was found with a note stating that the other hostages also would be killed if the group’s demands were not met. They were not and all other hostages were killed in 1996 by the terrorists.


July 25 - Islamic terrorists explode bomb in metro station in Paris, France, killing 7 people and injuring 84.


Nov. 13 - Car bomb exploded at US Army Office of the Program Manager for Saudi Arabian National Guard Modernization, in Saudi Arabia, killing seven, five of them U.S. citizens, and wounding nearly a hundred.


Nov. 19 - Islamic radicals plant bomb in Egyptian embassy in Pakistan killing 17.


Dec. 11 - 15 concurrent car bombings in Algiers kill 15 civilians and over 200 injured.


1996


Feb. 11 - Terrorists explode car bomb in Algiers killing 17. The following month, 2 more killed in another bomb and 10 are killed in a train ambush in western Algeria.


Feb. 25 - A suicide bomber blew up a commuter bus in Jerusalem, killing 26, including 3 U.S. citizens, and injuring 80 others, among them another two U.S. citizens.


April 19 - Eighteen Greek tourists were gunned down near the historic Pyramids in Egypt by Islamic terrorists aiming to destroy the country’s tourist industry.


May - Osama bin Laden unites the Islamic Fundamentalists worldwide in their Jihad against Jews and Western Gentiles, such as al-Qaeda, Palestinian Authority, Hezbollah, Hamas, Mujahideen, using the Taliban’s organization to help fund the operations.


June 25 - Terrorists explode a truck bomb next to a USAF Khobar Towers housing facility at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 515 injured including 240 U.S. personnel.


Islamic terrorists attack tourists in Luxor, Egypt, killing 71 people, most of them vacationers.


Aug. 26 - Sudan Airways A310 Airbus airliner hijacked en route to Jordan and diverted to England. British authorities negotiate with hijackers who release all the 13 crew and 180 passengers unharmed.


Dec. 3 - A bomb exploded aboard a Paris subway train, killing four and injuring 86 persons, including a U.S. citizen.


A terrorist opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the US, Argentina, Switzerland and France before turning the gun on himself.


Dec. 23 - A car bomb in the Algerian capital, Algiers, kills three and injures 70 people in cafe near the port. Again a week later, a car bomb kills 28 people and injures 35 people. 3rd car bomb in the past two weeks, killing additional 13 people and injuring more than 250.


1997


Jan. 2 - Major cities worldwide and U.S. get letter bombs with Egyptian postmarks at newspaper bureaus in DC, New York, London, Riyadh, S.A., and Leavenworth, KN. Experts defused all but the 1 in London, injuring 2.


Jan. 7 to 21st - Islamic terrorist rampage during these 14 days with car bombs and beheadings in Algiers, total of 238 dead, 139 wounded.


Feb. 23 - Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State building in New York, killing 1 and wounding over a dozen visitors before turning the gun on himself.


March 7 - Two killed in bus bomb attack in Beijing, China.


April - Terrorists behead innocent civilians this whole month with a total of 272 murdered and over 100 injured. Knives, axes and chainsaws were used and many of the bodies were burned while still alive.


Sept. 18- 9 German tourists killed when Muslims fire bombed bus in Cairo, Egypt.


Nov. 12 - 2 Terrorists shot to death 4 U.S. auditors of a Texas petroleum company and their driver at a Sheraton Hotel in Karachi, Pakistan.


Nov. 17 - 58 western tourists killed and 30 injured in gun attack at historic monuments in southern Egypt. 6 of the Islamic terrorists are killed in shoot out with police.


1998


Jan. 15 - U.S. Embassy bombing in Peru.


Feb. 23 (Published) - A Statement signed by many Islamic Jihad Leaders from most Muslim countries, first by Sheikh Osamah Bin-Ladin: “…In compliance with God’s order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims:
The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies–civilians and military–is an individual duty for every Muslim who can, in any country in which it is possible… We — with Allah’s help — call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded, to comply with Allah’s order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. Unless you go forth, Allah will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place.”


Aug. 7 - Simultaneous bombs in US Embassies in Kenya, and Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive attacks. In the Nairobi attack 292 people were killed, including 12 Americans, and 5,000 injured. 10 people were killed and 86 injured in Tanzania incident for a total of 302 dead, 5086 injured within an hour.


Aug. 25 - 3 people killed and 25 injured in bomb attack on Planet Hollywood restaurant in Cape Town, South Africa.


Dec. 28 - 16 Western tourists kidnapped, 12 Britons, 2 U.S. citizens, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden, Yemen. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.


1999


Aug. 31 to Sept. 22nd - Russian apartment bombings kill almost 300 and injured 100.


Oct. 31 - EgyptAir Flight 990 crashed off the U.S. coast of Massachusetts, killing all 217 people on board, including 100 Americans.


Nov. 12 - Six rockets were fired at the U.S. and U.N. offices in Islamabad, Pakistan.


Dec. - Millennium terror plots foiled as customs agents arrest a man smuggling in explosives. Plan to attack Los Angeles airport and other sites intercepted by CIA. Also Jordanian authorities foil a plot to bomb US tourists in Jordan, pick up 28 suspects.


Indian Airlines Flight 814, en route to Delhi, India is hijacked, 1 passenger is killed. After negotiations with the Taliban, the hostages are released.


2000


The last of the 2000 millennium attack plots fails, as the boat meant to bomb USS The Sullivans sinks.


Oct. 12 - A suicide boat exploded next to the U.S.S. Cole (guided-missile destroyer), blowing a hole 40 feet in diameter, killing 17 American sailors and injuring 39.


2001


Feb. 5 - A bomb blast in Moscow’s Byelorusskaya subway station injures 15 people.


March 28 - Bombing at bus stop in Yemen. U.S. citizens injured including a 15 year old boy from NY.


Aug. 9 - Bombing at Sbarro’s pizzeria, killed 15 and wounded over 90, 2 of which were U.S. citizens.


Sept. 11 - 4 U.S. jetliners hijacked and forced to crash into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon like missiles, and 1 crashed in Pennsylvania on the way to the Capital Building in D.C. In all, 266 people perished in the four planes, 2602 people were killed on the ground, plus 343 firefighters, and 184 people at the Pentagon. Almost 5000 injured, 500 rescue workers now have respiratory ailments. 7 buildings collapsed in NY and 23 damaged, plus 4 subway stations.


Paris embassy terrorist attack plot foiled


Oct. 27 - Darya Khanah bombed


Dec. 13 - Terrorist attack on Indian Parliament.


Dec. 22 - Richard Reid, attempting to destroy American Airlines Flight 63 from Paris to Miami, is subdued by passengers and flight attendants before he could detonate his shoe bomb.


2002


Jan. 27 - A Palestinian woman triggered a massive explosion in Jerusalem killing 1 Israeli and injuring more than 150, including American Mark Sokolow, his wife, and both teenage daughters. Sokolow had survived the 9-11 attack on the World Trade Center, escaping from his law office on the 38th floor of the South Tower before it collapsed.


Feb. 16 - Bombing in Karnei Shomron, in a group of teenage girls from the U.S. 2 killed, 4 wounded.


Singapore embassies terrorist attack plot foiled


March 24 - 20 people die and 93 injured in 3 bomb attacks on Russian towns near the border of Chechnya.


April - Explosion at most historic synagogue in Tunisia left 21 dead, most are German tourists.


May 9 - A bomb exploded in Dagestan kills 42 people and injures 130 during Victory Day festivities.


French oil tanker Limburg bombing off Yemen


Kidnapping and murder of journalist Daniel Pearl


Oct. 12 - Bali car bombing of holidaymakers in a nightclub kills 202 Australian citizens.


Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines<


Oct. 19 - Car bomb explodes at McDonald’s restaurant in Moscow, killing 1 person and wounding 5.


Oct. 23 - Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue 3 days later.


Nov. - Kenyan hotel suicide bombing kills 16 safari tourists.
Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait


2003


May 10- Suicide bombers killed 36 (10 U.S. citizens), at housing compounds for westerners in Riyadh, S.A. Many wounded.


May 12 - attack outside U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12.


May 14 - 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.


May - 4 bombs killed 33 tourists (8 U.S. citizens) in Casablanca, Morocco.


July 5 - 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.


Aug. 1 - An explosion at the Russian hospital in North Ossetia kills 50 people and injures 76.


Aug. - Suicide car bomb killed 12 and injured over 150 at Marriott Hotel in Jakarta, Indonesia.


Sept. 3- A bomb on a passenger train in southern Russia kills 7 people and injures 90.


Oct. 15 - Bombing of US diplomatic convoy in the Gaza Strip: 3 U.S. citizens killed.


Nov. - Explosions rocked a Riyadh, S.A. housing compound, killing 17.


Nov. - Truck bombs detonated at London bank and British consulate in Istanbul kills 26, injures 22.


Dec. 5 - Suicide bombers kill 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia.


Dec. 9 - A blast in the center of Moscow kills 6 people and wounds at least 11.


Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160.


Attacks in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead. The attack involved 12 bombers and 5 targets. The targets were “Western and Jewish”.


Istanbul Bombings: Within five days, truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey


2004


109 Kurds are killed in 2 suicide bombings in Arbil, Iraq


Feb. 6 - Bomb on Moscow subway kills 41.


Feb. 27 - Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.


March 11 - 10 Simultaneous bombings of busiest rush hour commuter trains in Madrid, Spain kills 202 people and injures more than 1,400.


April 21 - Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.


May 29 - Al-Khobar massacres–Islamic terrorists kill 22 people and one American at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.


June 8 - Robert Jacobs, a US defense contractor employee is assassinated at his home in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia by Al-Qaeda terrorists.


June 11 - Terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson, Jr. in Riyadh.


Aug. 24 - Russian airplane bombings kill 90.


Aug. 31 - A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.


Sept. 1 - 3 - Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia results in over 330 dead.


Sept. 9 - Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, killing 9 people.


Oct. 7 - 3 car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula hotel, killing 32 and wounding 114, most of them tourists.

The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.[8]

4 February 2005 – Muslim terrorists attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.

5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.

7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.

23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.

29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[9]

9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.[10][11] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[12]

7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.[13]

11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.

30 June 2007 - 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack, Glasgow, United Kingdom; A car loaded with propane canisters was driven into the glass doors of the Glasgow International Airport terminal and set ablaze. 1 killed and 5 injured. [14]

14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.

26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.[15] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, The Students Islamic Movement of India.[16]

13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh, Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.

26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital, Mumbai. The government of India blamed Pakistan based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and stated that the terrorists killed/caught were citizens of Pakistan, a claim which the Pakistani government first refused but then accepted when given proof. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.[17][18]

25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.

28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.

3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.

1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.[20]

14 February 2010 - Pune,Maharashtra,India. bomb blast ripped through the city's popular German Bakery, close to the Osho Ashram and diagonally across from the Jewish Chabad House [21]killing 17 people and injuring 65.Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) claimed involvement of pakistan based Lashkar-e-Taiba's (LeT).Police arrested Mirza Himayat Baig Inayat Baig,who allegedly heads Lashkar-e-Taiba's (LeT) module in the state.ATS has also arrested Bilal Baba Hussain Fareed Shaikh (27).In its chargesheet filed in a Pune court, the ATS has also named six other accused - all co-conspirator and absconding - Mohsin Choudhary, Yasin Bhatkal, Riyaz Bhatkal, Iqbal Bhatkal, Faiyaz Kagzi and Zabihuddin Ansari.[22]

1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.

May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.

[ChumpDumper]

That isn't a number, Darrin.

Give me a number of all the Muslims currently living in the world you define as crazy.

[LnGrrrR]

DarrinS,

Yes, it's well known that the majority of terrorist attacks are performed by Muslims. Are you limiting crazy=terrorist attacks?

Terrorism/suicide tactics tend to be employed by Muslims more often than non-Muslims, very true. But is that due to mindset, lack of resources, or strategy? Some combination?

Instead of just going one-deep with your argument, why not explore what these facts are saying?

[DarrinS]

DarrinS,

Yes, it's well known that the majority of terrorist attacks are performed by Muslims. Are you limiting crazy=terrorist attacks?

Terrorism/suicide tactics tend to be employed by Muslims more often than non-Muslims, very true. But is that due to mindset, lack of resources, or strategy? Some combination?

Instead of just going one-deep with your argument, why not explore what these facts are saying?



I guess you and Chump didn't pick up on my sarcasm. I don't think jihadists are crazy (not in the medical sense). I was just extrapolating from GGA saying "maybe he was just crazy". If that's the case, then the DATA suggests there's a lot of "crazy" Muslims.

[LnGrrrR]

I guess you and Chump didn't pick up on my sarcasm. I don't think jihadists are crazy (not in the medical sense). I was just extrapolating from GGA saying "maybe he was just crazy". If that's the case, then the DATA suggests there's a lot of "crazy" Muslims.

But that's Chump's whole point, it seems there are a lot of "crazy" people because the majority of terrorist attacks are caused by Muslims. But how many Muslims cause attacks, compared to the whole population of Muslims? (ie. it's probably only .05 percent or so... that's not "a lot").

Additionally, the list you provided didn't make note of race in all instances, and there are some high profile terrorist cases that didn't involve Muslims (unabomber, mcveigh, the sarin gas bombings etc).

The whole point is, if you're trying to say that Muslims are more likely to commit a terrorist attack than another race, you might be right. But when that percentage is as small as it is (let's say, .05 of Muslims commit terrorism as opposed to .01-.03 of other races)... well that sample size is too small to be anything but statistical noise.

[DarrinS]

But that's Chump's whole point, it seems there are a lot of "crazy" people because the majority of terrorist attacks are caused by Muslims. But how many Muslims cause attacks, compared to the whole population of Muslims? (ie. it's probably only .05 percent or so... that's not "a lot").

Additionally, the list you provided didn't make note of race in all instances, and there are some high profile terrorist cases that didn't involve Muslims (unabomber, mcveigh, the sarin gas bombings etc).

The whole point is, if you're trying to say that Muslims are more likely to commit a terrorist attack than another race, you might be right. But when that percentage is as small as it is (let's say, .05 of Muslims commit terrorism as opposed to .01-.03 of other races)... well that sample size is too small to be anything but statistical noise.


That statistical noise has been causing a lot of problems for the past 40+ years.

[MannyIsGod]

DarrinS,

Yes, it's well known that the majority of terrorist attacks are performed by Muslims. Are you limiting crazy=terrorist attacks?

Terrorism/suicide tactics tend to be employed by Muslims more often than non-Muslims, very true. But is that due to mindset, lack of resources, or strategy? Some combination?

Instead of just going one-deep with your argument, why not explore what these facts are saying?


LNG, many of your points are flat out incorrect. Islamic terrorism does not make up the majority of terrorist attacks so why do you just concede that incorrect point to Darrin?

[Drachen]

LNG, many of your points are flat out incorrect. Islamic terrorism does not make up the majority of terrorist attacks so why do you just concede that incorrect point to Darrin?

We should be keeping our eyes on those pesky Irish...

WAIT, I'M IRISH!

[ElNono]

That statistical noise has been causing a lot of problems for the past 40+ years.

Plenty non-Muslim 'statistical noise' groups have. ETA, CIRA, FARC, LTTE, IRA/RIRA, RN, 17N, DHKP/C, Shining Path, AUC...

[DarrinS]

LNG, many of your points are flat out incorrect. Islamic terrorism does not make up the majority of terrorist attacks so why do you just concede that incorrect point to Darrin?

Based on what?

[MannyIsGod]

The FBI's own figures.

[DarrinS]

The FBI's own figures.

link?

[MannyIsGod]

What, you don't know where they are? I'm sure you've put the research in before reaching your Islamiphobic stance so how on earth could you have missed the FBI's terror reports?

Maybe you should get a computer patent on a website that allows you to search other websites, Darrin.

[LnGrrrR]

That statistical noise has been causing a lot of problems for the past 40+ years.

Would you like to answer the point I brought up? Lots of people from every race cause problems, don't they? Do Muslims make up a statistically significant amount of people causing problem compared to other races?

Or are you just upset that they happen to use terrorism as a tactic rather than some other means?

Again, why do you think they use terrorism instead of more conventional methods?

[LnGrrrR]

LNG, many of your points are flat out incorrect. Islamic terrorism does not make up the majority of terrorist attacks so why do you just concede that incorrect point to Darrin?

Manny, I should have been more clear. I should have said that terrorist attacks involving suicide seem to be predominantly Muslim. Not sure if that's a culture, tactics or some other reason.

And frankly, I'm willing to concede one point to try to get DarrinS to look further than simple comparisons of A to B.

[MannyIsGod]

That is incorrect as well. The Tamil Tigers put Muslims to shame.

Conceding incorrect points just reinforces his stupid ideas, IMO.

[MannyIsGod]

Now, if you count the attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan as terrorist attacks you might be able to make a case for Muslims leading the way on that front but aren't those wars?

[MannyIsGod]

I didn't check with the US first though.

[DarrinS]

What, you don't know where they are? I'm sure you've put the research in before reaching your Islamiphobic stance so how on earth could you have missed the FBI's terror reports?

Maybe you should get a computer patent on a website that allows you to search other websites, Darrin.


Well, if you can't produce the data, STFU.

[MannyIsGod]

I can produce it quite easily. That doesn't mean I have to be your gopher. If you can't put in some research to actually make an informed opinion then maybe you should take your own advice?

I gave you to phrase to Google. Are you so lazy that you can't even do that for yourself? How on earth do you actually come up with your viewpoints?

[LnGrrrR]

That is incorrect as well. The Tamil Tigers put Muslims to shame.

Conceding incorrect points just reinforces his stupid ideas, IMO.

Perhaps. But trying to counter DarrinS on his facts means he tends to just evade anyways. I'm willing to say, "Ok, if X is true, why is that so?" I'm curious to see if DarrinS will ever answer.

[LnGrrrR]

Now, if you count the attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan as terrorist attacks you might be able to make a case for Muslims leading the way on that front but aren't those wars?

Good question actually. Can "war" be one-sided? I think, in this case, it can.

For instance, if US soldiers attacked a bunch of innocent Muslims, but didn't wear their uniform and did so not for strategic purposes (ie. manufacturing, communication etc), I wouldn't be surprised to call it terrorism.

Terrorism has come to mean an action performed by "rogue" agents, ie. non-state actors. So you could classify attacks against servicemen as "terrorist" attacks, I guess, unless the culprit was a known group we were at war with.

It does all get a bit messy, especially when you try to determine if US can go to "war" against an individual group and not a country. What we did in Iraq, once Saddam was gone, was more of an occupation and less of a "war" in the truest sense.

[DarrinS]

Would you like to answer the point I brought up? Lots of people from every race cause problems, don't they? Do Muslims make up a statistically significant amount of people causing problem compared to other races?


Since there are over a billion Muslims, I will admit that it is a small fraction comitting terrorists acts. If a large fraction decided to become jihadists, the world would be fucked. Luckily, we have some geography on our side. By the way, I don't consider Muslim a race.





Or are you just upset that they happen to use terrorism as a tactic rather than some other means?

Again, why do you think they use terrorism instead of more conventional methods?

They will use whatever they have at their disposal. That's why we need to keep a close eye on Pakistan. I can't think that a failed state with nukes is a good thing.

[MannyIsGod]

@LNG

Dude, all you've done in this thread is move goalposts regarding what makes terrorism and you wonder why I say the term is meaningless and is just used for propoganda purposes?

First there has to be a war, then the US has to accept that there is a war, and then war only exists for the US?

Wow.

[DarrinS]

I can produce it quite easily. That doesn't mean I have to be your gopher. If you can't put in some research to actually make an informed opinion then maybe you should take your own advice?

I gave you to phrase to Google. Are you so lazy that you can't even do that for yourself? How on earth do you actually come up with your viewpoints?


Here's a database from the National Counterterrorism
Center.


Better than FBI's website and better than Google.


https://wits.nctc.gov/FederalDiscoverWITS/index.do?N=0

[DarrinS]

Here's a report generated by that database.

https://wits.nctc.gov/FederalDiscoverWITS/index.do?t=Reports&Rcv=Perpetrator&Nf=p_IncidentDate%7CGTEQ+20010101%7C%7Cp_IncidentD ate%7CLTEQ+20101231&N=0



Incidents grouped by perpetrator characteristic (1/01/2010 to 12/31/2010)

Group Type Attacks Dead Wounded Hostage Victims
Christian Extremist 338 3,358 661 2,551 6,570 Environmental/Anti-Globalization 14 0 4 0 4
Hindu Extremist 18 13 117 1 131
Islamic Extremist (Shia) 520 1,241 3,987 390 5,618
Islamic Extremist (Sunni) 19,058 40,920 89,901 12,762 143,583
Islamic Extremist (Unknown) 301 836 3,950 68 4,854 Jewish Extremist 52 6 71 0 77
Neonazi/Fascists/White Supremacists 6 4 8 0 12
Other Religious Extremist 7 7 73 2 82
Secular/Political/Anarchist 17,041 16,376 29,456 59,581 105,413 Tribal/Clan/Ethnic 587 1,975 1,638 1,284 4,897
Unknown 36,757 44,301 98,430 5,234 147,965
Total 74,699 109,037 228,296 81,873 419,206




At least the secular anarchists are a close second.

[MannyIsGod]

So by your link less than 20,000 of the 75,000 or so attacks were made by Islamists. You analyze data so well, Darrin!

[MannyIsGod]

Also, lol @ half of the database being "Unknown".

:lmao

[LnGrrrR]

Since there are over a billion Muslims, I will admit that it is a small fraction comitting terrorists acts. If a large fraction decided to become jihadists, the world would be fucked. Luckily, we have some geography on our side. By the way, I don't consider Muslim a race.

Fair enough.


They will use whatever they have at their disposal. That's why we need to keep a close eye on Pakistan. I can't think that a failed state with nukes is a good thing.

I think the bolded part is important. If they had even a quarter of the resources that modern countries had, do you think they'd still be using terrorist tactics, or would they switch over to more modern forms of warfare?

I agree that Pakistan has the potential to turn into a big shitstorm.

[DarrinS]

Same data, but just in the last year.


Group Type Attacks Dead Wounded Hostage Victims
Christian Extremist 21 809 21 649 1,479
Hindu Extremist 2 3 17 0 20
Islamic Extremist (Shia) 52 223 716 16 955
Islamic Extremist (Sunni) 291 3,388 8,917 113 12,418
Islamic Extremist (Unknown) 16 136 407 0 543
Jewish Extremist 2 0 3 0 3
Neonazi/Fascists/White Supremacists 1 0 0 0 0
Other Religious Extremist 1 0 0 0 0
Secular/Political/Anarchist 90 324 1,359 0 1,683
Tribal/Clan/Ethnic 4 38 16 0 54
Unknown 583 1,898 5,572 50 7,520
Total 1,063 6,819 17,028 828 24,675

[DarrinS]

So by your link less than 20,000 of the 75,000 or so attacks were made by Islamists. You analyze data so well, Darrin!


At least I provided some.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if you can't produce the data, STFU.I asked you how many Muslims in the world are terrorists.

[MannyIsGod]

:( :( :(

"manny won't give me a link and the FBI's records are soooooooooooo hard to find"

:( :( :(

[MannyIsGod]

Only Darrin would consider a dataset where half of the data is missing reliable.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll tell you what, If I provided a temperature record where half the weather stations recorded "unknown" Darrin would shooting fire out of his ass and ears.

[DarrinS]

I asked you how many Muslims in the world are terrorists.


I don't know. Do you know?

[LnGrrrR]

@LNG

Dude, all you've done in this thread is move goalposts regarding what makes terrorism and you wonder why I say the term is meaningless and is just used for propoganda purposes?

That's a good point. I will agree that terrorism is poorly defined. The working definition (acts of violence carried out in the name of a political/ideological goal) is rather weak.

I don't think you can just throw the term out though, unless you want to refer to actions as "lawful/unlawful". That might be a better designator.


First there has to be a war, then the US has to accept that there is a war, and then war only exists for the US?

Wow.

In essense, yes, although the way you stated it is somewhat strange.

Would you disagree that the US has to recognize something as a war before it actually is? (Ie. it's not just a "war" because some random group declared war on us?)

And while the "war" isn't really one-sided, it is in the sense that one side is playing by the rules and one isn't. That's why you could have terrorist actions from one side, and non-terrorist actions from the other side. (Though as I said above, perhaps lawful/unlawful would be a better distinction.)

[MannyIsGod]

But yes, 20,000 out of 75,000 sure does seem like a majority to me anyway.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know. Do you know?You certainly talk like you do.

It's good to know you can't back up what you say.

[DarrinS]

I'll tell you what, If I provided a temperature record where half the weather stations recorded "unknown" Darrin would shooting fire out of his ass and ears.


I guess some terrorists that use IED's don't leave behind their business cards.

[MannyIsGod]

Step one, Invade a Muslim Country. Check

Step two, When Muslims fight back call them terrorists. Check.

Step three, point out how Muslims are committing terrorist attacks!!! Check.

[DarrinS]

Step one, Invade a Muslim Country. Check

Step two, When Muslims fight back call them terrorists. Check.

Step three, point out how Muslims are committing terrorist attacks!!! Check.


Step one, go to public library. Check.

Step two, check out a history book. Check.

Step three, learn that numerous terrorist attacks occurred before any "invasion". Check.

[ChumpDumper]

Depends on what one considers an invasion.

[Nbadan]

How was that guy who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building not a wing-nut terrorist? That's what I want to know...

[MannyIsGod]

Step one, go to public library. Check.

Step two, check out a history book. Check.

Step three, learn that numerous terrorist attacks occurred before any "invasion". Check.

How many occurred with IEDs like you just mentioned above prior to the invasion?

Why do you put invasion in quotes? The invasion of Iraq wasn't a real invasion? :lol

If you discount attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan aimed at the military how does your terrorism database stack up still?

You know why the majority of those casualties come from Sunni Muslims, Darrin? Hint, go to the public library and do some research on "invasions".

[ElNono]

How did this conversation shifted from 40+ years to the last year? :lol

[DarrinS]

How was that guy who flew his plane into the Austin IRS building not a wing-nut terrorist? That's what I want to know...


Just so you know, 911 nutters like you aren't allowed to use the term wing-nut.

[DarrinS]

How did this conversation shifted from 40+ years to the last year? :lol


Hey, I just was pointing out that people that are quick to say the Tuscon shooting was motivated by political rhetoric can't being themselves to say a shooting of US airmen by a guy yelling "Allahu Akbar" was motivated by radical Islam.

[ElNono]

Hey, I just was pointing out that people that are quick to say the Tuscon shooting was motivated by political rhetoric can't being themselves to say a shooting of US airmen by a guy yelling "Allahu Akbar" was motivated by radical Islam.

Right. So, how did this conversation shifted from 40+ years to the last year?

[RandomGuy]

Here's a report generated by that database.

https://wits.nctc.gov/FederalDiscoverWITS/index.do?t=Reports&Rcv=Perpetrator&Nf=p_IncidentDate%7CGTEQ+20010101%7C%7Cp_IncidentD ate%7CLTEQ+20101231&N=0



Incidents grouped by perpetrator characteristic (1/01/2010 to 12/31/2010)

Group Type Attacks Dead Wounded Hostage Victims
Christian Extremist 338 3,358 661 2,551 6,570 Environmental/Anti-Globalization 14 0 4 0 4
Hindu Extremist 18 13 117 1 131
Islamic Extremist (Shia) 520 1,241 3,987 390 5,618
Islamic Extremist (Sunni) 19,058 40,920 89,901 12,762 143,583
Islamic Extremist (Unknown) 301 836 3,950 68 4,854 Jewish Extremist 52 6 71 0 77
Neonazi/Fascists/White Supremacists 6 4 8 0 12
Other Religious Extremist 7 7 73 2 82
Secular/Political/Anarchist 17,041 16,376 29,456 59,581 105,413 Tribal/Clan/Ethnic 587 1,975 1,638 1,284 4,897
Unknown 36,757 44,301 98,430 5,234 147,965
Total 74,699 109,037 228,296 81,873 419,206

At least the secular anarchists are a close second.

Those figures were for the entire database, not just 2010.
------------Attacks----Dead-----Wounded--Hostage ----Victims---victims % of total
Afghanistan---8,594---11,435--- 16,569--- 2,505---30,509 7.6%
Iraq ------- 24,821---48,805--- 107,248--- 4,459--160,512 39.9%
Nepal ------ 3,789 --- 1,256--- 3,652--- 48,779-- 53,687 --13.3%
Pakistan --- 6,634--- 8,918--- 18,872--- 5,286--- 33,076--8.2%


---------------------------------------------------------------

Oddly enough most of those deaths are the indirect result of US actions, other than Nepal and India (not shown, approx 25,000 victims).

Our actions in Iraq, essentially precipitated a low level conflict style civil war.

I would also note that the database is fairly recent, so comparisons with past periods is not possible.

I stand by my earlier statement. I doubt that Saddam's butchers killed nearly as many Iraqis, as our actions directly or indirectly did.

Given this list is, in all likelihood, vastly understated, that is a lot of dead muslims that died so we could be secure.

By the way, your snarky comment at the end:
"At least the secular anarchists are a close second"

Missed the important "political" distinction that was lumped into the " Secular/Political/Anarchist" category.

One would assume your average civil war in Africa, or outright criminal undertaking would fall in this category.

Not sure what you point was, but I can guess.

[RandomGuy]

@LNG

Dude, all you've done in this thread is move goalposts regarding what makes terrorism and you wonder why I say the term is meaningless and is just used for propoganda purposes?

First there has to be a war, then the US has to accept that there is a war, and then war only exists for the US?

Wow.

Honestly, I think "terrorist" is something of a failed term/idea.

They are criminals, pure and simple, and should be treated as such. This whole affair could be much better handled by law enforcement, with military action as a VERY last resort.

[RandomGuy]

Just in my lifetime


1968


June 5 - U.S. presidential candidate Robert Kennedy murdered by Palestinian Sirhan Sirhan, in Los Angeles, which causes further terrorist attacks, as Arab terrorist groups demanded his release.
May 2010 - Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.

I have no doubt that the world is a violent place.

BUT

If you can't compare that list to other groups and causes, like say the IRA, or FARC, then you haven't really said all that much, other than the fact that your confirmation bias didn't allow you to see the logical faults in such a line of reasoning.

[z0sa]

Step one, Invade a Muslim Country. Check

Step two, When Muslims fight back call them terrorists. Check.

Step three, point out how Muslims are committing terrorist attacks!!! Check.

mannyisgod's steps to looking stupid about terrorism:

1) you must believe the American founding fathers were considered terrorists, not rebels and revolutionaries.

2)Then you imply the USA initially invaded a Muslim country (Afghanistan) without cause.

3) Then imply no one, definitely not to the tune of ~85% of the public, considered said country a harbor for terrorism nor supported invasion.

4) Now act like the USA government uses terrorism now solely for propaganda uses in furhtering the War and has convinced the population, after the fact, that such a war is necessary because of terrorism.

There you have it. Any of you can appear as hopelessly out of touch as manny.

If you're still feeling too clued in, you can always call the nuclear bombs used against Japan a unique brand of American-sponsored terrorism; of course, the clued in are keeping in mind that Japan is a nation that attacked us first without provocation and also, a nation we waged war against for over three and a half years and lost tens of thousands of lives against, and we warned and demanded a surrender. Also keep in mind the nuclear bombs saved an estimated 1 million American and Japanese lives (most of the Japanese being civilians, of course). It's not War, it's Terrorism.

[DarrinS]

Honestly, I think "terrorist" is something of a failed term/idea.

They are criminals, pure and simple, and should be treated as such. This whole affair could be much better handled by law enforcement, with military action as a VERY last resort.

lol

[Winehole23]

The pre-9/11/01 approach to terrorism is preferable in almost every way, but its failure to bow to perceived expediency and pander to a hysterical public is probably fatal to it politically.

[RandomGuy]

lol

:lmao

[RandomGuy]

The pre-9/11/01 approach to terrorism is preferable in almost every way, but its failure to bow to perceived expediency and pander to a hysterical public is probably fatal to it politically.

Pretty much. The emotional arguments in politics sadly trump best practices more often than I would like.

[RandomGuy]

I just find it strange that the same bunch that jumped on the "crosshairs" metaphor can't bring themselves to say jihad or radical Islam when, by all accounts, the shooter yelled "Alahu Akbhar". If that's fuckktardedly partisan, so be it.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post, so I will try to keep it simple.

Everybody, including the administration official in question, can probably guess it was an act of terrorism.

What someone in an offical capacity can't really do, is comment with a solid assertion without even preliminary results of any real investigation. That is irresponsible.

What is fucktardedly partisan by your dumb ass, is to suggest that an official of the US government should publically and officiall state something as fact, even if it is readily fairly obvious, without any more formal investigation being upheld.

It veers into the realm of unbelievably fucktardedly partisan, because you would probably not imply that our government should be that irresponsible if the administration had been a Republican one, especially when that administration, being constrained by the same things offically and diplomatically would have said pretty much the exact same thing.

Are you implying that our government should be irresponsible to suit your emotional needs Darrin?

[DarrinS]

The pre-9/11/01 approach to terrorism is preferable in almost every way, but its failure to bow to perceived expediency and pander to a hysterical public is probably fatal to it politically.


Didn't work very well ON 9/11, did it?


There was a man who repeatedly tried to warn people of an impending attack by Al Qaeda. If he hadn't died in the WTC on 9/11, I'm sure he would be called a islamophobe today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

[DarrinS]

Maybe I wasn't clear in my earlier post, so I will try to keep it simple.

Everybody, including the administration official in question, can probably guess it was an act of terrorism.

What someone in an offical capacity can't really do, is comment with a solid assertion without even preliminary results of any real investigation. That is irresponsible.

What is fucktardedly partisan by your dumb ass, is to suggest that an official of the US government should publically and officiall state something as fact, even if it is readily fairly obvious, without any more formal investigation being upheld.

It veers into the realm of unbelievably fucktardedly partisan, because you would probably not imply that our government should be that irresponsible if the administration had been a Republican one, especially when that administration, being constrained by the same things offically and diplomatically would have said pretty much the exact same thing.

Are you implying that our government should be irresponsible to suit your emotional needs Darrin?


deja vu

[RandomGuy]

deja vu

If you don't like the implication, don't make the statement.

Answer the question.

[LnGrrrR]

Step one, Invade a Muslim Country. Check

Step two, When Muslims fight back call them terrorists. Check.

Step three, point out how Muslims are committing terrorist attacks!!! Check.

You forgot to ask how many Muslims WEREN'T committing attacks, but decided to because of our presence. That's a big point too.

[DarrinS]

You forgot to ask how many Muslims WEREN'T committing attacks, but decided to because of our presence. That's a big point too.


How many?

[LnGrrrR]

Didn't work very well ON 9/11, did it?


There was a man who repeatedly tried to warn people of an impending attack by Al Qaeda. If he hadn't died in the WTC on 9/11, I'm sure he would be called a islamophobe today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/

Do you think that America is able to prevent all terrorist attacks of this size? Is that a reasonable assumption? (Not rhetorical, it's an honest question.)

[LnGrrrR]

How many?

Obviously a rhetorical question, but the answer is certainly more than zero.

[DarrinS]

Do you think that America is able to prevent all terrorist attacks of this size? Is that a reasonable assumption? (Not rhetorical, it's an honest question.)



Of this size, yes. It's all the homegrown solo artists that are becoming the problem. It is probably more difficult to stop the smaller attacks. Funny thing is, it's not the TSA groping grandmothers that's thwarting attacks -- just ALERT individuals and incompetent jihadists.

[LnGrrrR]

Of this size, yes. It's all the homegrown solo artists that are becoming the problem. It is probably more difficult to stop the smaller attacks. Funny thing is, it's not the TSA groping grandmothers that's thwarting attacks -- just ALERT individuals and incompetent jihadists.

I think I agree, that we should expect our intelligence services to prevent us from such a widespread, long planned out attack. (Especially given that there was likely some forewarning.)

I also agree that the TSA is pretty stupid.

What do you think of other actions? For instance, email sniffing, warrantless wiretapping, etc etc? Justified for the time/money/resources spent on them? Or would we be better off relying on agents to do their work, and following the (assumed) best leads?

[Winehole23]

Didn't work very well ON 9/11, did it?
Prevention isn't a reasonable standard.

[Winehole23]

Mitigate due process, privacy, personal dignity and rule of law to prevent a few pinpricks. Good plan.

[DarrinS]

What do you think of other actions? For instance, email sniffing, warrantless wiretapping, etc etc? Justified for the time/money/resources spent on them? Or would we be better off relying on agents to do their work, and following the (assumed) best leads?


I don't know what gets caught by the email sniffing, wiretapping, etc., so I don't know if the costs are justified.

Seems like the best defense is the non-islamaphobic-vigilance of ordinary people.

[DarrinS]

Prevention isn't a reasonable standard.


I think prevention of very large-scale attacks on our homeland is a reasonable standard. I don't expect that all the attacks by jihadi-come-latelies can be prevented.

[Winehole23]

I think prevention of very large-scale attacks on our homeland is a reasonable standard.What is a large-scale attack? Does 9/11 count?

[Marcus Bryant]

We've gone from the major national security threat being nuclear annihilation to random acts of violence, yet we're still breaking the bank on military expenditures.

The Cold War peace dividend has been squandered because we like being on edge.

[RandomGuy]

What is a large-scale attack? Does 9/11 count?

We lose more Americans in two months to car crashes than we did on 9-11, and it is estimated that economic losses from car crashes in the US tops roughly $20bn per month.

Our use of cars is more dangerous to the average American than Al Qaeda.

[RandomGuy]

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

(2001-2009)
369,629 Americans have been killed in vehicle accidents.

Add in a rough guess of 35,000 for 2010, and that will easily top 400,000 people.

Men, women, children.

Where is the war on car crashes?

[ChumpDumper]

Didn't work very well ON 9/11, did it?


There was a man who repeatedly tried to warn people of an impending attack by Al Qaeda. If he hadn't died in the WTC on 9/11, I'm sure he would be called a islamophobe today.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/knew/You do know he was in law enforcement, don't you?

You do know he caught Ramzi Yousef, don't you?

This guy would punch you square in the vagina, Darrin.

[DarrinS]

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

(2001-2009)
369,629 Americans have been killed in vehicle accidents.

Add in a rough guess of 35,000 for 2010, and that will easily top 400,000 people.

Men, women, children.

Where is the war on car crashes?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Highway_Traffic_Safety_Administration

[DarrinS]

You do know he was in law enforcement, don't you?

You do know he caught Ramzi Yousef, don't you?




Hmmm. Interesting.

Say, you sound like you know a lot about the FBI. Did he work in the criminal investigative division of the criminal branch or the counterterrorism division of the national security branch?

[ChumpDumper]

Hmmm. Interesting.

Say, you sound like you know a lot about the FBI. Did he work in the criminal investigative division of the criminal branch or the counterterrorism division of the national security branch?He worked in the law enforcement agency known as the FBI.

If you think the FBI is a branch of the military, you need another punch in the vagina.

[DarrinS]

He worked in the law enforcement agency known as the FBI.

If you think the FBI is a branch of the military, you need another punch in the vagina.


What the fuck are you talking about? You're boutons-dumb.

[ChumpDumper]

What the fuck are you talking about? You're boutons-dumb.The man you brought up, John O'Neill, worked for the FBI.

The FBI is a law enforcement agency.

The FBI is not a branch of the military.

What part of this do you not understand?

[DarrinS]

The man you brought up, John O'Neill, worked for the FBI.

The FBI is a law enforcement agency.

The FBI is not a branch of the military.

What part of this do you not understand?


Who said the FBI was a branch of the military?


What part of this do you not understand?

[ChumpDumper]

Who said the FBI was a branch of the military?


What part of this do you not understand?Apparently you do not understand any of your own arguments.

Not a problem for me.

[LnGrrrR]

I don't know what gets caught by the email sniffing, wiretapping, etc., so I don't know if the costs are justified.

Seems like the best defense is the non-islamaphobic-vigilance of ordinary people.

Do you think that citizens should be given an idea of how many terrorists were caught using certain methods? Or do you think we should havefaith that the budgeting for these items is justified?

[DarrinS]

Do you think that citizens should be given an idea of how many terrorists were caught using certain methods? Or do you think we should havefaith that the budgeting for these items is justified?


I'd like to know. It's our money.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

You forgot to ask how many Muslims WEREN'T committing attacks, but decided to because of our presence. That's a big point too.

Because of our presence? What do you mean?

[LnGrrrR]

Because of our presence? What do you mean?

Not so much our presence, but the unintended consequences our military causes. While we may not intend to kill innocents, we end up doing so. We can't expect the local populace to just say, "It's ok, you did your best" and put it aside.

In fact, there's been a few jihadis who have explicitly said that the occupation was a reason they decided to attack the US. (obviously not saying they're justified in this belief)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

While we may not intend to kill innocents, we end up doing so.War is hell. I'm sure you know that but there's really nothing we can do about them not grasping that.


In fact, there's been a few jihadis who have explicitly said that the occupation was a reason they decided to attack the US. (obviously not saying they're justified in this belief)
Ah. Ok. I thought that's what you were in fact saying. Just had to ask before I responded accordingly :D

[MannyIsGod]

War is hell. I'm sure you know that but there's really nothing we can do about them not grasping that.


Sounds a lot like what Bin Laden would say to the families of those who died on 9/11.

[RandomGuy]

Where is the war on car crashes?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Highway_Traffic_Safety_Administration

Doesn't seem to be working does it?

I would call 400,000 dead Americans to be a pretty solid failure.


Research on the trends in use of heavy vehicles indicate that a significant difference between the U.S. and other countries is the relatively high prevalence of pickup trucks and SUVs in the U.S. A 2003 study by the U.S. Transportation Research Board found that SUVs and pickup trucks are significantly less safe than passenger cars, that imported-brand vehicles tend to be safer than American-brand vehicles, and that the size and weight of a vehicle has a significantly smaller effect on safety than the quality of the vehicle's engineering.[2] Comparisons of past data with the present in the U.S. can result in distortions, since the level of large commercial truck traffic has substantially increased from the 1960s while highway capacity has not kept pace with the increase in large commercial truck traffic on U.S. highways.[3][4] However, other factors exert significant influence; Canada has lower roadway death and injury rates despite a vehicle mix comparable to that of the U.S.[5] Nevertheless, the widespread use of truck-based vehicles as passenger carriers is correlated with roadway deaths and injuries not only directly by dint of vehicular safety performance per se, but also indirectly through the relatively low fuel costs that facilitate the use of such vehicles in North America. Motor vehicle fatalities decline as gasoline prices increase.[6] NHTSA has issued few regulations in the past 25 years. Most of the reduction in vehicle fatality rates during the last third of the 20th Century were gained from the initial NHTSA safety standards during 1968–1984 and subsequent voluntary changes in vehicle crashworthiness by vehicle manufacturers[7]



Seems to me that the problem is not enough government interference in the free market.

How many people are you willing to let die because you want a "free market" solution to transportation, Darrin?

[DarrinS]

Where is the war on car crashes?



I've been working in this field for over 20 years.

In the early days it was all about preventing injuries and fatalities (airbags, seatbelt laws, crash energy management, more pliant materials for interiors, etc). Crash avoidance technologies (ABS, stability control, etc.) have received more attention in recent years. Either way, the govt does recognize the dangers of auto accidents and has made significant investments to ameliorate those risks.

[Wild Cobra]

I've been working in this field for over 20 years.

In the early days it was all about preventing injuries and fatalities (airbags, seatbelt laws, crash energy management, more pliant materials for interiors, etc). Crash avoidance technologies (ABS, stability control, etc.) have received more attention in recent years. Either way, the govt does recognize the dangers of auto accidents and has made significant investments to ameliorate those risks.
Now if we could only get the police to ticket the people who follow too close.

[LnGrrrR]

War is hell. I'm sure you know that but there's really nothing we can do about them not grasping that.

Just because one may get something logically doesn't mean it won't affect them emotionally.

If the US govt was doing construction work on your street, and it somehow killed a kid on your block, the parents could "understand" that the construction crew wasn't at fault while still harboring ill feelings towards them.

Also, they'd probably look for compensation. I don't know if we give compensation to families of innocents that we have killed.


Ah. Ok. I thought that's what you were in fact saying. Just had to ask before I responded accordingly :D

Nope, just saying it happens, and we should recognize the possibility of these unintended casualties when we go to war.

[RandomGuy]

I've been working in this field for over 20 years.

In the early days it was all about preventing injuries and fatalities (airbags, seatbelt laws, crash energy management, more pliant materials for interiors, etc). Crash avoidance technologies (ABS, stability control, etc.) have received more attention in recent years. Either way, the govt does recognize the dangers of auto accidents and has made significant investments to ameliorate those risks.

That doesn't really answer the question.

How many people are you willing to let die because you want a "free market" solution to transportation, Darrin?

30,000+ every year seem acceptable to you?

[RandomGuy]

Now if we could only get the police to ticket the people who follow too close.

That's the nanny state telling me how closely I can follow someone. Fuck that.


Right?

Maybe you will take a stab at it.

How many people are you willing to let die each year because you want a "free market" solution to transportation, Cobra?

10,000?
20,000?
50,000?
100,000?

The current answer seems to be about 40,000. Each and every year. One every 13 minutes.

If muslim terrorists were doing that, you would be screaming for internment camps.

[Wild Cobra]

That's the nanny state telling me how closely I can follow someone. Fuck that.

Wow...

An infraction of the basic rule. An infraction that leads to so many avoidable accidents. We have too many careless drivers on the road. I consider those "pole positioning" and following too close, the most common dangerous practice of drivers. I believe accidents and insurance rates would be cheaper is we did all we could to stop reckless behavior on the streets.

[RandomGuy]

Wow...

An infraction of the basic rule. An infraction that leads to so many avoidable accidents. We have too many careless drivers on the road. I consider those "pole positioning" and following too close, the most common dangerous practice of drivers. I believe accidents and insurance rates would be cheaper is we did all we could to stop reckless behavior on the streets.

Such things are pointless government interference in what should be a perfectly private decision.

[RandomGuy]

Wow...

An infraction of the basic rule. An infraction that leads to so many avoidable accidents. We have too many careless drivers on the road. I consider those "pole positioning" and following too close, the most common dangerous practice of drivers. I believe accidents and insurance rates would be cheaper is we did all we could to stop reckless behavior on the streets.

The exact same logic can be used to mandate the purchase of health insurance, by the way. or, for that matter the outlawing of fatty foods and cheap sugar

[DarrinS]

That doesn't really answer the question.

How many people are you willing to let die because you want a "free market" solution to transportation, Darrin?

30,000+ every year seem acceptable to you?



We have to accept some deaths or we'd all be driving around in M1A1 Abrams tanks, getting 2 mpg.

Why so angry, btw?

[LnGrrrR]

DarrinS, you're still curiously not mentioning what you think an acceptable amount of deaths per year is.

[Wild Cobra]

The exact same logic can be used to mandate the purchase of health insurance, by the way. or, for that matter the outlawing of fatty foods and cheap sugar
Stop, would you. Apples and oranges.

Driving is recognized as a privilege by law.

Are you placing life into the same category, that it's a privilege?

Bad form...

I have witness accidents that would likely not have occurred if drivers weren't poll positioning or following too close. It's truly a safety issue, and if people cannot respect the safety of others, they should not be permitted to drive.

[Wild Cobra]

Such things are pointless government interference in what should be a perfectly private decision.
It's not private when it's on the public roads.

[diego]

this thread is killing me. such convenient definitions of terrorism. But hey, if I put on a uniform, and give a warning before using lethal force on a defenseless target so that their relatives' fear and anguish pressures them to give in to my demands, that is entirely different than using lethal force on a defenseless target so that their relatives' fear and anguish pressures them to give in to my demands.

the warning especially makes all the difference. The civilian populations of Himoshima and Nagasaki could have easily sold their houses and moved to a more pleasant destination if they didnt want to be burned alive. and those unborn children? they should have chose a different womb to be conceived in, tbh. :downspin: same goes for the iraqis, afghanis, vietnamese, new yorkers, etc etc. because god knows that moving from one country to another is really easy, especially for poor people in countries ravaged by war. their neighbors are just chomping at the bit to take them in. and if moving really were so difficult, the least they could do is organize a concert to show the world who's side they are on before getting bombed to shit.

What's funny though is that OBL did warn he would strike, I can't recall if it was just before or just after the US military fired 80 tomahawk cruise missiles to kill him (they missed and hit a pharmaceutical company instead- whoops!) war is ugly though. I'm not sure who the US was officially at war with at that time but there must have been someone. and isn't that turban a uniform? I'm pretty sure that is why a 50 year old rastafarian puerto rican got the shit kicked out of him on the week of 9/11 when I was living in Santa Cruz, CA, or why an Indian friend got kicked out of a pool hall (they called him a sand ######. He left his turban at home but he must have had some kind of uniform on, how else could they recognize him?) And then there was the 42 year old Indonesian anthropology major, mother of 2, that was taken into custody for 2 weeks without having any charges filed against her. I don't remember what uniform she wore, but she was muslim. at the time I thought it was a coincidence, but after reading Darrin's posts I now understand just how dangerous she was.

But given that the uniform and the warning are so important... what uniform were Nixon and kIssinger's CIA operatives wearing when they were assassinating political targets all over latin america and training police and military personnel to torture their civilian populations? what warning was the US giving when they were publicly repudiating the dictators they themselves propped up? oh, silly me, I got my definitions wrong. that's not terrorism, it's espionage, which sounds pretty god damn slick and elegant, even though it included putting rats in women's vaginas and electrocuting men's testicles and forcing musicians to play their commie songs after cutting their hands off. :downspin:

[DarrinS]

diego should join Code Pink

[RandomGuy]

We have to accept some deaths or we'd all be driving around in M1A1 Abrams tanks, getting 2 mpg.

Why so angry, btw?

Either that, or we simply build trains or bicycles in many places.

[LnGrrrR]

Stop, would you. Apples and oranges.

Driving is recognized as a privilege by law.

Devil's Advocate question: How is driving a privilege and not a right?

[Wild Cobra]

Devil's Advocate question: How is driving a privilege and not a right?
By legal considerations. I am not expressing my opinion on that. That is how the law interprets it. If driving was a right, there could be no repercussions for driving without insurance. Could there?

Do you have to have your rights "licensed?"

[ChumpDumper]

3: something that one may properly claim as due

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/right

Damn, yoni and WC are idiots.

[Yonivore]

Devil's Advocate question: How is driving a privilege and not a right?
Freedom to move from place to place -- so long as your movement doesn't infringe on someone else (think trespassing) -- is a right. How you effect that movement, other than on your own two feet, is not.

Why? Well, cars, roads, and the consequences of driving cars on roads has a price that is born by people other than just yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

You have a right to drive if you have a license and meet the other legal requirements to do so.

Is this really so difficult for you to understand?