Nice Piece on Lakers' P+R Defense

[VI_Massive]

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1550

This guy Sebastien Pruiti writes great stuff about nuts and bolts of the game at nbaplaybook.com.

Relevant to the SA forum because he theorizes this defensive change is aimed at thwarting our P+R attack.

[Mel_13]

Pruiti is excellent. Thanks for posting this.

[VI_Massive]

He basically says they won't have their bigs hedge as much because they're more willing to give up the open mid-range J rather than the drive to the bucket and it keeps their perimeter defenders from rotating away from 3 point shooters. I wonder what folks here think -- is there a solution other than Manu, TP, and Hill simply making their mid-range shots? Ideas on what SA can do to counteract this approach?

[beachwood]

Great article. Really want to see what Pop does to counter this the next time.

[lefty]

Great article. Really want to see what Pop does to counter this the next time.
Finley !

[tdunk21]

good article

[duncan228]

Pruiti is excellent. Thanks for posting this.

+1 :tu

[rmt]

That's a good strategy as it renders Bonner (in particular) and RJ (a little less so) useless on offense. Parker, Manu and Hill are not great mid-range shooters. The only Spur with a nice mid-range is probably Neal, but he doesn't really do pick and roll.

If the 3pt shooters are taken out of the picture, then TP and Manu will run themselves ragged trying to do all the scoring in the half-court offense.

[elbamba]

He basically says they won't have their bigs hedge as much because they're more willing to give up the open mid-range J rather than the drive to the bucket and it keeps their perimeter defenders from rotating away from 3 point shooters. I wonder what folks here think -- is there a solution other than Manu, TP, and Hill simply making their mid-range shots? Ideas on what SA can do to counteract this approach?

Neal is hands down the best mid range jump shooter on this team. He is the best option to counter this. I would say Tony hitting his mid-range is just as important because if Tony is going, there is no way Fischer or Blake can defend him. That will spread the floor and force the bigs to come out.

[VI_Massive]

That's a good strategy as it renders Bonner (in particular) and RJ (a little less so) useless on offense. Parker, Manu and Hill are not great mid-range shooters. The only Spur with a nice mid-range is probably Neal, but he doesn't really do pick and roll.

If the 3pt shooters are taken out of the picture, then TP and Manu will run themselves ragged trying to do all the scoring in the half-court offense.

hoopdata.com is a great site to look at for how guys shoot from certain distances. Here's SA's data http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=SAS&type=pg&posi=%&yr=2011&gp=0&mins=0

Looks like Hill and Manu are pretty solid at 47% from 10-15 feet and TP's at about 37. If you go 16-23 feet, Hill 35%, Manu 37%, TP 39%. Those guys are the primary ball handlers on the P+R, so the numbers are ok, not great, but ok.

Maybe this type of D could make Hill more effective because he seems better and the pick and pop rather than hitting the roll man (collective eye roll) or kicking out. As always with George, I think if he's confident and decisive and just says to himself "these guys are leaving me open jumpers, I can hit these all day", then I think he can be pretty effective if left open for mid range shots.

[Spurstro]

If Neal runs the pick and roll, the Lakers will simply change it up and hard show. If they don't, that will leave Neal open for a three.

They would force Neal to put it on the floor instead of taking jump shots.

[VI_Massive]

Neal is hands down the best mid range jump shooter on this team. He is the best option to counter this. I would say Tony hitting his mid-range is just as important because if Tony is going, there is no way Fischer or Blake can defend him. That will spread the floor and force the bigs to come out.

I think if the Spurs were running the P+R for Neal, the Lakers would come out and hedge because of his mid-range prowess. He's not as good, I think, at hitting the roll man or the three point shooter.

[spurs10]

The reason this strategy won't stop us is that Tony and Manu will go at Bynum and get him in foul trouble quickly. If everybody stays on their man we'll kill them in the paint on most nights. Lay ups usually have a much higher accuracy % than threes.

[Seventyniner]

That's a good strategy as it renders Bonner (in particular) and RJ (a little less so) useless on offense. Parker, Manu and Hill are not great mid-range shooters. The only Spur with a nice mid-range is probably Neal, but he doesn't really do pick and roll.

If the 3pt shooters are taken out of the picture, then TP and Manu will run themselves ragged trying to do all the scoring in the half-court offense.

Perhaps the way to counter this is to only play Bonner when two of the Lakers' three best bigs (Bynum/Gasol/Odom) are off the floor.

While the Spurs chuck up a lot of threes, the starting lineup isn't that dangerous in that department. Ginobili is streaky, and Jefferson wants to use the thread of the 3 to open up driving lanes. It's really the bench that relies on the 3.

The "soft show" is useful in not letting the ballhandler get to the rim, but can be exploited in a side PnR situation. Let's say we have Parker and Duncan vs. Fisher and Bynum. If Bynum does the soft show on Parker after the pick, then Duncan should be able to get in front of Fisher and beat him to the rim, forcing Bynum to turn around and help. If not, Gasol (covering Bonner in the corner) has to help, giving Bonner the open shot. Bynum's help would allow Parker an open shot, or enough confusion under the basket to find an open shooter if another defender helps.

[VI_Massive]

The reason this strategy won't stop us is that Tony and Manu will go at Bynum and get him in foul trouble quickly. If everybody stays on their man we'll kill them in the paint on most nights. Lay ups usually have a much higher accuracy % than threes.

We'll see. Bynum seemed possessed and did a pretty good job stifling the penetration last weekend, but it was just one game and Tony and Manu are pretty good at drawing fouls.

[polandprzem]

still probably transition O might be the best O vs LA

[spurs10]

We'll see. Bynum seemed possessed and did a pretty good job stifling the penetration last weekend, but it was just one game and Tony and Manu are pretty good at drawing fouls.
I'm thinking if help doesn't come for Tim, meanwhile, he gets to increase his ppg. This, in the end, won't work so great if Tim can make his shots. They were betting against it, correctly, in the last game. Let's hope it burns them in the end. We will need to aggressively box Bynum out throughout the game.
:flag:

[analyzed]

Obviously Pop is thinking about this, and definetly he won't show his cards during the regular season. The way I see it is , you can alwasys mix things up to be less predictable. For instance more and more they won't use the man Bynum is guarding for the pick. (i.e Odom won't be as big a cover in the paint) . 2 you can disguise the pick and roll and run handoffs instead. Remember for the Lakers to cover the pick and roll this way, Bynum and company need to know it is coming to be in the position to cover it the way they want to.
So basically I'm sure the spurs have counters and are just too smart and will run variations. Its all about adjustments

[PBEEZY]

For some reason i can't see this page, my browser keeps crashing everytime I try to load it...Am I the only one this is happening to?

[elec99]

How about if timmy slips the screen, moves towards the rim forcing byunm to have to block him out while parker beats his man and heads towards the rim? Bynum would have to make a decision on who to guard and parker would have to decide between taking a layup/teardrop or dishing it off to timmy.
If help D does come then he has someone else to pass it to.
Also if they run the p/r close to the baseline timmy can jet along the baseline while parker goes through the paint. It makes for an easier passing angle, plus Help d can only come from one side when you run this along the baseline.

[Man In Black]

There's more to it than this and coaches aren't wont to reveal what cards they have until playoff time. Let's just say that if this wrinkle is all that it takes to stop the Spurs then...what's the point with having the most complex playbook in the NBA?
Adjustments will be made. It's not like Bonner can't shoot midrange J's, it's just that his role is to shoot them from behind the arc. If Pop implements a lineup with Gary, Manu, and Matt, along with McDyess & Tim...offensively, that'll be tough to stop, but defensively, they have to compete their asses off, especially Matt.

[PublicOption]

is camping in the paint for 12 seconds part of that D.

[ChuckD]

I think if the Spurs were running the P+R for Neal, the Lakers would come out and hedge because of his mid-range prowess. He's not as good, I think, at hitting the roll man or the three point shooter.

Bullshit. He was a PG at the start of his college career, and I've seen him throw a pass over his shoulder from about 5 feet out to Bonner out deep beyond the 3 point arc, probably a 21 foot pinpoint pass.

My guess is that the Spurs will do nothing about it for the next meeting, which will likely be meaningless. Why show your playoff hand?

They'll have to do something for the playoffs, though, and it might be double picks at the foul line. That shit gives us fits when other teams do it to us, and I think it would either draw the other big out, or make the pick SO WIDE that Fish can't get around it, and it becomes Tony going to the rim against a shotblocker. If the Laker shotblocker attacks, you can throw the teardrop. It also may draw in a wing to help protect the rim, and open up a trey on the perimeter.

[kaji157]

I don't think this pnr defense can be effective if the spurs know they are throwing it at them.

They shoot good from midrange, and with Gasol covering Bonner on the corner either Ginobili or Parker can attack Bynum and take him to the rim, surely Bynum will make a lot of blocks, but he will also be in foul trouble by the end of the first as Manu and TP are great drawing fouls.

You can also hit duncan an let him go one-on-one with a stepping back Bynum, to me, the best aspect of this kind of defense is that when teams are structured to do ONE thing off the pick, they get surprised by a different defense, but once you expect it the effect it can have is as good as any defense.

[OrEmuN]

Actually why not pick and pop with Duncan/Dice ? If Bynum is going stay in the box, then Dice and Duncan are very capable of hitting that uncontested mid range

[ChuckD]

What most of you are missing is that you don't just settle for what the Lakers concede, you work for what you want. I can flat out fucking guarantee you we aren't winning a series shooting primarily midrange jumpers. We need trips to the rim and threes.

[Warlord23]

Edit: Wrong thread

[moisaenz]

This was shown by Miami.. Attack, attack attack, make bynum and gasol work hard inside defensivley then kick out for midrange jumper or three....This will improve our chances rebounding and actually being able to drive it home at the end of the game..

[Capt Bringdown]

This was shown by Miami.. Attack, attack attack, make bynum and gasol work hard inside defensivley then kick out for midrange jumper or three....This will improve our chances rebounding and actually being able to drive it home at the end of the game..

That and RJ & Neal are going to have to be assassins from mid-range. The way Hill is playing lately, I'd rather see Neal steal some of his minutes.

Don't know what we can do to stop the Lakers gobbling up all those offensive boards though. Clearly we can't dominate the Lakers - the best we can hope for is to play them tight, and a few extra possessions could sway the series.

[ChuckD]

That and RJ & Neal are going to have to be assassins from mid-range. The way Hill is playing lately, I'd rather see Neal steal some of his minutes.

Don't know what we can do to stop the Lakers gobbling up all those offensive boards though. Clearly we can't dominate the Lakers - the best we can hope for is to play them tight, and a few extra possessions could sway the series.

That's why you can't settle for what they're giving you. We need finishes at the rim and three point shots. Mid range shots don't get you to the FT line, and they don't get you an extra point per make.

[silverblk mystix]

Parker/Manu/Hill...

need to be very aggressive against Fisher...because Fisher is the key.

Fisher will grab,push,flop,etc...

but will force Parker to change his direction and likely burn precious seconds off the 24 sec clock--which will end up in a forced shot.
If Parker can attack Fisher and force the refs to call fishers fouls-this will change the game.

Artest is the same thing--if he is allowed from the beginning to be grabby and riding on players backs...this will again force the spurs to play from a position of weakness.

If the lakers out-physical the spurs,they have the advantage.

If the spurs make the lakers pay by drawing fouls early,the spurs can beat the lakers since the spurs speed and execution will trump the lakers size & physicality.

[pawe]

That was how they defended the pnr the last game against the Spurs. After TP got stuffed the first time, none drove up the lane to challenge Bynum. Smart move because why risk injury and exposing your timing to their big men.

TP and Manu are warriors, If Bynum will wait for them at the rim he will have to sit early as we all know how crafty manu is and how good TP finishes a drive. GHill is also a known scorer and so is Neal.
This is the second half and approaching the tail end. Pop will not give the lakers a chance to gameplan against their O.

[Russ]

That and RJ & Neal are going to have to be assassins from mid-range. The way Hill is playing lately, I'd rather see Neal steal some of his minutes.

RJ could be a huge key. He strikes me as an exceptional mid-range shooter (neither fish nor fowl if ya know what I mean).

RJ also seems to come up big in the playoffs and wanders during the regular season (too long in NJ?).

And Neal seem to have the mid-range game down. (Euro players are virtuosos at the lost arts.)


What most of you are missing is that you don't just settle for what the Lakers concede, you work for what you want. I can flat out fucking guarantee you we aren't winning a series shooting primarily midrange jumpers. We need trips to the rim and threes.

That's right. All zones have seams -- you just have to go at the hoop and expose (create) the mf-ing seams. Then you get that smirky Bynum in foul trouble (and when that happens the smirky Phil soon loses his smirk). Manu has the capacity to frustrate the hell out of these guys -- he's done it before.

[Tuddy]

Gotta make sure the screens are set high (outside 3 point line). A few of them were set well inside the 3 point line which will make it easier for Bynum to backpedal to the rim. If you get him high, Manu or Tony can attack Bynum while he is still retreating towards the rim and make it harder for him to defend.

[Capt Bringdown]

And Neal seem to have the mid-range game down. (Euro players are virtuosos at the lost arts.)


You'd think there would be more players devoting themselves to mastering the mid-range.

Mike Mitchell was a great mid-range shooter for the Spurs way back when.

[OrEmuN]

If the spurs make the lakers pay by drawing fouls early,the spurs can beat the lakers since the spurs speed and execution will trump the lakers size & physicality.

If the zebras are not biased for the Lakers, we might have more than even chances of toppling the Lakers. The problem is to get them to call a 3 second rule correct is hard enough, let alone calling a foul on Pau or Bynum.

[Capt Bringdown]

If the zebras are not biased for the Lakers, we might have more than even chances of toppling the Lakers. The problem is to get them to call a 3 second rule correct is hard enough, let alone calling a foul on Pau or Bynum.

No shit, just watching the LA/Mavs game, and the Lakers have set up camp in the lane.

[ajh18]

I wonder if the shift of Dice into the starting lineup is partly to address this. Dice is a threat to drift back after the pick and hit the midrange jumper. Blair doesn't offer that option, and Tim is still our best post scorer. Dice as a starter may create some matchup problems for LA if they're using this strategy.

[polandprzem]

Dyess in S5 + Tp getting corner treys every game they've played after the LA game


Bonner seems to intimidated now, and can't hit what he usually hits hmm

[ChuckD]

You'd think there would be more players devoting themselves to mastering the mid-range.

Mike Mitchell was a great mid-range shooter for the Spurs way back when.

There was no NBA 3 pointer when the Spurs joined the league, so your best shot if you couldn't finish at the rim for some reason was a mid range 2. That's why players worked on it back then. Now. it's just a change of pace or a finishing shot for players who don't do well at the rim.