For 95% of Spurstalk who are idiots...

[chazley]

Our second, third, fourth, and fifth best defensive lineups this season have included Bonner. Here are our top defensive lineups so far this season: (Numbers are points scored per opponent possession)

1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 0.87
T2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 0.90
T2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 0.90
T4. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 0.93
T4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Splitter - 0.93

Note: Ginobili is on each list, once again proving my point that he is a lockdown defender.

In terms of shared win%, here are our best lineups:

1. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 87.5%
2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 78.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 73.3%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 71.4%
5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 68.4%

Well well well, what do ya know. Bonner once again shows up on 4 of the top 5 lineups. But hey, I know some people are still not convinced. Bonner is white, they say. Therefore, he must be a really really really shitty defender. He isn't athletic they say, even though defense is about 20% athleticism. I guess all I can do is spew more FACTS and hope some of you catch on and stop following the opinion of 95% of Spurstalk who are complete dumbasses sometimes. Here we go:

Percentage of opponent field goals from close range (not sure what 82games defines as close range, but I assume its within 5 feet), according to lineup:

T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 39%
T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Jefferson-Duncan - 39%
3. Parker-Neal-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 34%
4. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 32%
T5. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 31%
T5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess - 31%

What do ya know, Bonner only in one of those lineups... He must be getting PUNISHED by all those bully 7-footers, cause, ya know, he's just getting annihilated on the block. People are pushing him right into the basket and just posterizing him repeatedly, while he cries and runs to Pop who reassures him "just make a three Matt cause you have zero purpose when you're on the floor other than to do that". I mean, the numbers would back that up, right???

One more Bonner fact I promise:

Best +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes):

1. Ginobili - +11.6
T2. Duncan - +10.6
T2. Bonner - +10.6
4. Hill - +9.1
5. Parker - +7.4

Yea yea yea, I know, still not convinced. I mean what are numbers and facts to the well trained eyes of the couch potato Spurs fans, who sees this guy running around like a T-rex, he must be bringing this team down. Pop and R.C. are just blind idiots with 4 championships since 1999, what do they know? I, the Spurstalk poster, am WAY smarter than those guys! And we have Splitter, who is the next coming of Dwight Howard! He's such a defensive force!

Well, sorry guys, but Splitter has sucked this year. I know Spurstalk experts think he is gonna be a beast against the Lakers and such cause, ya know, he's a 7-footer and god knows that he's gonna beast against Bynum and Pau when the lights come on!'

Yea well, you're wrong. Let me, again, give you facts:

Worst +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes)

1. Anderson (barely qualifies) - -9.1
2. Quinn - -8.4
3. Splitter - -4.9
4. Neal +5.5
T5. Jefferson/McDyess - +6.4

Splitter has sucked big time. The fact is, he is almost over 10 points worse per 48 minutes than the only other rotation player on the list, Gary Neal. His actual +/- is the worst on the team, -51.

This is it for now. Might add some more stuff later if I still get some doubters.

[jay_shs]

Constant (z) variable - Manu Ginobili

[chazley]

Constant (z) variable - Manu Ginobili

Yes, I think it's widely known he's been the best player on the court overall this year for the Spurs though.

[jay_shs]

This year, or since 2005? (Aside from the year he missed 3/4 of the season, my 8th grade year)

[John Basedow]

Please Pop, listen to chaz

[chazley]

Please Pop, listen to chaz

I'm defending Pop, not offering any new suggestions.

[DesignatedT]

Many won't like this but the stats don't lie. I still believe his minutes should be cut down once the playoffs begin but he isn't near as bad as most on this board portray him out to be.

[ajballer4]

The reason Splitters +/- is so low is because he is getting minutes in scrub time. Since we have such a good record, it means he plays mostly when they came is in hand in our favor.

[chazley]

The reason Splitters +/- is so low is because he is getting minutes in scrub time. Since we have such a good record, it means he plays mostly when they came is in hand in our favor.

Do I really need to explain why this is a dumb statement? Hopefully you're just being sarcastic.

[ajballer4]

Do I really need to explain why this is a dumb statement? Hopefully you're just being sarcastic.

No I agree with you 100% on Bonner, as much as people, including me, do not like him, he is essential to what we are doing this year. I just think Splitter is better than people give him credit for

[Blake]

where did you get the 95% idiot statistic?

[Dex]

where did you get the 95% idiot statistic?

The same place he got the #1 statistic.

[chazley]

The same place he got the #1 statistic.

lol well played.

[Obstructed_View]

Bonner gets minutes with the best players. What a surprise that he ranks high. Michael Finley was the Spurs' best player when here; just look at his plus/minus numbers.

[Warlord23]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

For the first stat (opponent points per possession), Duncan and Ginobili are both present in most of the lineups. Bonner's presence is incidental, not influential. If TD blocks 3 shots, Manu steals a couple, and Bonner gets dunked on thrice, the opponent PPP = 0.75 with no credit to Bonner. What are the worst five lineups on this front? Do any of them have the Bonner-Blair combo?

I don't know what shared win % is. I've heard of win shares, but this stat is new to me. Will comment after you provide a link to it.

The close range shots stat is meaningless. When a shotblocker mans the middle, the defensive strategy will be to stay close on the perimeter and let the guard try and finish inside. If a Bonner/Blair combo mans the middle, Pop may ask the perimeter defenders to back off to prevent the drive and rather give up the jumpshot. The opponent will score freely off of jumpers, but on the stat sheet it will look like Blair and Bonner shut down the paint. [Example: guard drives 10 times into TD/Dice, scores 4 times for 8 points, guard takes the open shot 10 times against Bonner/Blair, scores 3 threes and 3 twos for 13 points]

+/- is a highly ridiculed stat as it is and I don't want to waste my breath on it. It depends on who you play with. Finley at his absolute nadir put up fairly decent plus/minus because he used to start with TD and TP. I'm no Splitter supporter, but he must've played half his minutes in garbage time with the likes of Quinn, Anderson, Novak et al ... not a great way to boost your +/- stat.

If you want to compare Bonner to the other bigs, start watching games without the blinkers.

[200 miles]

Congratulations, Chaz, your "#1" supporters and advocates are....

wait for it...

LAKER Fans!!! :toast



Isn't that right, John Basedow?

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

so the spurs D is best with bonner on the bench.......ok

[chazley]

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

[chazley]

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

For the first stat (opponent points per possession), Duncan and Ginobili are both present in most of the lineups. Bonner's presence is incidental, not influential. If TD blocks 3 shots, Manu steals a couple, and Bonner gets dunked on thrice, the opponent PPP = 0.75 with no credit to Bonner. What are the worst five lineups on this front? Do any of them have the Bonner-Blair combo?

I don't know what shared win % is. I've heard of win shares, but this stat is new to me. Will comment after you provide a link to it.

The close range shots stat is meaningless. When a shotblocker mans the middle, the defensive strategy will be to stay close on the perimeter and let the guard try and finish inside. If a Bonner/Blair combo mans the middle, Pop may ask the perimeter defenders to back off to prevent the drive and rather give up the jumpshot. The opponent will score freely off of jumpers, but on the stat sheet it will look like Blair and Bonner shut down the paint. [Example: guard drives 10 times into TD/Dice, scores 4 times for 8 points, guard takes the open shot 10 times against Bonner/Blair, scores 3 threes and 3 twos for 13 points]

+/- is a highly ridiculed stat as it is and I don't want to waste my breath on it. It depends on who you play with. Finley at his absolute nadir put up fairly decent plus/minus because he used to start with TD and TP. I'm no Splitter supporter, but he must've played half his minutes in garbage time with the likes of Quinn, Anderson, Novak et al ... not a great way to boost your +/- stat.

If you want to compare Bonner to the other bigs, start watching games without the blinkers.

Hilarious that you try so hard to disprove facts and results. You're coming up with theoretical situations that in the long run have a negligible amount of impact on a stat. Also, Blair/Neal/Hill have had plenty of run in garbage time and their +/- numbers are fine.

Don't know why people are using Finley as some kind of scapegoat for the supposed ineffectiveness of the +/- stat. Finley won a championship with us and was very effective for this team.

Also, LOL at saying Bonner's stats are so good cause he's piggybacking on the rest of our roster. If that's the case, just throw me in there and I'll have the same impact as Bonner, right?

[itzsoweezee]

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

Lol, the conclusions you're making based on these stats, however, are dishonest.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

haha LOVE seeing all the Bonner haters in the thread. Again, stats and facts don't lie.

fact- spurs D is best when bonner rides pine

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

fact- we have a higher winning % with bonner riding the pine hard

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

facts

[4>0rings]

Watch the current game, yes that just happened with Bonner missing and getting scored on multiple times - FACT

[itzsoweezee]

Care to comment on the close of the 2nd quarter, asshole?

[Warlord23]

Great fucking +/- :cry

[nkdlunch]

OP is a fucking retard.

Bonner is garbage.

our biggest point swings is when Bonner misses a few 3s and on defensive ends gets pummeled.

retard ass chazley.

[John Basedow]

Matt Bonner is a beast...stats don't lie. His presence on not only the offensive--but the DEFENSIVE end will prove to be the difference in the playoffs.

[underdawg]

Many won't like this but the stats don't lie. I still believe his minutes should be cut down once the playoffs begin but he isn't near as bad as most on this board portray him out to be.

Stats might not lie, but unfortunately Bonner gets caught with his stats down a little too often in the playoffs.

[Cessation]

I agree, chazley is a bonner defender, therefore, a retard by definition. If he's so effective, why does he choke so bad in the playoffs? You're only as good as your competition.

[4>0rings]

Darn these idiots!!!

[thOOdee]

all this thread tells me is bonner seems to play alot

[chazley]

OP is a fucking retard.

Bonner is garbage.

our biggest point swings is when Bonner misses a few 3s and on defensive ends gets pummeled.

retard ass chazley.

So much fail in this post.

Bonner is the best 3-pt shooter in the league, and you indicate him shooting threes is a bad thing? Rofl.

Obviously you didn't read the part where I gave stats showing he is a good defender.

[chazley]

all this thread tells me is bonner seems to play alot

False, most of the stats are adjusted for playing time.

[chazley]

I agree, chazley is a bonner defender, therefore, a retard by definition. If he's so effective, why does he choke so bad in the playoffs? You're only as good as your competition.

Sample size. You gonna go off of a 11-game sample from last year? I could go on and on and on about STARS who have struggled early in their playoff careers, only to blossom in the end.

[chazley]

Lol, the conclusions you're making based on these stats, however, are dishonest.

Like what? What did I say that weren't backed up by these stats?

[chazley]

Care to comment on the close of the 2nd quarter, asshole?

Yea, no good player in NBA history has ever had a bad game, let alone a bad END OF A QUARTER, therefore Bonner must suck.

[chazley]

fact- spurs D is best when bonner rides pine


fact- we have a higher winning % with bonner riding the pine hard


facts

You take dumbass to another level.

[jdiggy0424]

Stats never tell the whole story

[Sense]

Trying to be Hollinger?

Do you know how stupid that guy really is?

[chazley]

Stats never tell the whole story

Stats>average Spur fan's opinion

[chazley]

Trying to be Hollinger?

Do you know how stupid that guy really is?

No, I'm not trying to be him. However, most top contenders in the NBA have guys just like Hollinger working behind the scenes to give them advanced basketball metrics that they then use to put a better team on the court.

Also, you might disagree with John Hollinger, but to call him stupid is, well, stupid.

[ChumpDumper]

How does one watch a game with blinkers on?

Does one have to be in a car?

[all_heart]

Ok I haven't posted in months, but this time I gotta. I watch with my eyes and it's plain to see Bonner is very mediocre on D. These sort of stats don't always tell the truth. If you were talking blocked shots and rebounds then yes obviously. When I see Bonner blocking other bigs shots, altering shots or fighting like mad on the boards, I'll be a believer. But we all know those things aren't going to happen. Bonner's value is hitting 3's and his other shots he mixes in, but I'd trade that any day for a true big. You know the kind you can depend on to come through and get key stops. BTW Manu is no lock down defender, he's crafty and smart but Bowen like.. no.

[chazley]

Ok I haven't posted in months, but this time I gotta. I watch with my eyes and it's plain to see Bonner is very mediocre on D. These sort of stats don't always tell the truth. If you were talking blocked shots and rebounds then yes obviously. When I see Bonner blocking other bigs shots, altering shots or fighting like mad on the boards, I'll be a believer. But we all know those things aren't going to happen. Bonner's value is hitting 3's and his other shots he mixes in, but I'd trade that any day for a true big. You know the kind you can depend on to come through and get key stops. BTW Manu is no lock down defender, he's crafty and smart but Bowen like.. no.

Your post is the shared sentiment of about 80% of this board. MY OP's purpose was to prove that just because Bonner has the ugliest game on our team, doesn't mean he isn't effective and our team isn't much better defensively and offensively when he's on the court. All I can do is to point to stats and facts to back me up, because there's very few knowledgeable people here... but that's fun for me. Bonner averages about one steal/block per 48 minutes, that's fine for me for our PF on defense. Bonner is more of a mobile defender anyways, he's not a rim protector. His defensive fundamentals are top notch, and while he's prone to getting burned at times by very athletic PF's (which we don't need to worry about), he has excellent footwork and rarely fouls. On offense, he is amazingly efficient... he rarely turns it over (1 TO/48 min) and his effective FG% (0.687) is through the roof, among the best in the league.

Fun fact: Bonner has been CLUTCH this season, with an eFG% of 83.3% when the situation is 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points.

By the way, LOCKDOWN defender might have been a slight stretch when describing Manu as a defender, because Bruce was the epitomy of lockdown and Manu isn't on that level, but he is closer than anyone gives him credit for. I have read multiple articles (I know one was on 48MoH) that gave advanced stats showing just how good Manu was on defense.

Keep the rebuttals coming boys.

[all_heart]

Bonner is more of a mobile defender anyways, he's not a rim protector. His defensive fundamentals are top notch, and while he's prone to getting burned at times by very athletic PF's (which we don't need to worry about), he has excellent footwork and rarely fouls.

Fun fact: Bonner has been CLUTCH this season, with an eFG% of 83.3% when the situation is 4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points.


Huh.. the defending champs have LO and Gasol.. OKC is all athletic..
Having Bonner on the floor in critical moments or against athletic bigs means team D needs to be superb and leaves little room for error. Extremely hard to do against elite teams. BTW when Bonner gets dunked on it gives a lot of confidence to the opposing team.. not good.

I want Bonner to be clutch in the post season.. there where it matters the most. He has to prove himself he can come through..

[jag]

You take dumbass to another level.

Was he wrong?

[Kyle Orton]

lol GNSF

[Wilford Brimley]

lol GNSF

lol stupid Nuggets fan. What are you, like 5th in the West? Get that weak stuff outta here

[Kyle Orton]

Sup Wilford

[Wilford Brimley]

Sup Wilford

what's good scrah

[Gagnrath]

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

[Gagnrath]

In an isolation against Bonner the other guy generally scores, I like Bonner though he's a decent back-up that is payed appropriately for his role and he does it pretty well. He's pretty decent at ball denial, which I will say is from no one being able to miss the glowing white and red guy near the man, is he covering? Who knows, I was looking for my man and got distracted by him in the vicinity, he is in position and tries hard. He's not a rim protector, and his rebounding for his size and position is poor. Offensively in the past he has been more bothered by hard close-outs than I would like but he does keep the paint from staying packed.


Alot of the fans see Bonner getting beaten regularly on isolations and alot of the time it ends in an athletic and spectacular dunk. This is memorable, the contested jump shot by another player because he was covering his man, or a pass out of the post because he had position and was guarding his guy isn't. It doesn't help that he's extra memorable looking when he is getting posterized.

[Kyle Orton]

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

[Wilford Brimley]

Chillin bro. Hows the diabeetus, have you had to get anything amputated like Beetus Joe?

Left BKA (below knee amputation), tbh. Don't get the beetus, Kyle...it's a bitch

[ajh18]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

[chazley]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

Excellent post.

[underdawg]

Advanced stats dont tell the whole story, BUT they are usually a better starting point for assessment than "what my eyes tell me."

Any person watching a game comes in with all sorts of pre-conceived notions of what makes a player productive. When someone is productive in other ways, a person unconsciously chooses whether their beliefs about productivity are wrong, or the statistics. It's much harder for a person to change their beliefs and biases than to just attack the data, so the latter is usually what happens.

It's kinda the same thing as when folks that say "the spurs are boring." People come in with preconceived notions of what "exciting" basketball is (sick dunks, ridiculous stats by superstars, etc) and when the Spurs win with ball movement, team play, and a solid pick and roll game, people insist that the Spurs are boring rather than admit that maybe their concept of "exciting" wasn't right in the first place.

Same thing as when people love the James White!(s) of the world because athleticism is usually seen more favorably than basketball IQ. But I'll take Oberto from the early decade over Stromile Swift anyday.

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

[DesignatedT]

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

[jjktkk]

You don't need stats when you just need to use common sense regarding Matty. Bonner is an asset to this team when he is hitting his shots, and is not being overused by Pop. Too much Bonner means Bonner isn't on offensively and Bonner's defensive liabilities are being exposed. Come playoff time, Pop needs to have the hook at the ready for Bonner when he isn't on his game.

[itzsoweezee]

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

[DPG21920]

I thought these stupid Nazi trolls were being retired.

[jjktkk]

How can anyone want Matt Bonner on their team come playoff time?

Serious question.

Its not that I want Bonner, but it is reality that Bonner is a Spur, so I hope Bonner can shed his choking in the playoffs label.

[underdawg]

you can attribute a lot in those stats. Like the decline in the big 3 as they are getting older which is the main reason for this. particularly Duncan.

True, but Tony and Manu's steals per game are the highest they've had since '06 and Duncan's blocks per game are higher than his previous 2 years. His rebounds are down, but I don't think him taking less shot attempts helps that. Point is their defense doesn't seem to have declined like you would think, but overall the Spurs defense has.

Point is - It will be interesting in the playoffs to see if Pop's strategy works -offensive emphasis over defense. If you go off of history, Tony and Manu are going to get you 20 a piece and Duncan's offensive role continues to diminish, but he should still get close to 20 ppg himself. Where are the other 30-40 points going to come from?

Spurs are probably going to need to average over a 100 pts per game in the playoffs since their defense is going to give up close to that. I can see Neal giving the Spurs 10 ppg, but I don't have any confidence in Bonner, Jefferson, Blair, Mcdyess and Hill making up the rest of that gap on a consistent level and especially if one of the Big 3 has an off night.

[HighLowLobForBig-50]

You take dumbass to another level.

last night i was pumped for the game and was in the mood to feed you.
not so much today. good luck with that

[chazley]

So where's the stat that shows the shooting percentage for the player(s) that Bonner is matched up with? That would be interesting.

You want stats - here you go:
Spurs opponent FG%
.451 - 2010/2011 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.452 - 2009/2010 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.453 - 2008/2009 (Bonner 17+ mpg)
.444 - 2007/2008
.443 - 2006/2007
.433 - 2005/2006
.426 - 2004/2005

You can attribute some of the decline to the loss of Bowen, but you don't help that factor by giving 17+mpg to a big averaging 3.4 rebounds a game and 0.4 blocks per game.

haha these stats are so irrelevant to this discussion... do I really need to explain why?

[chazley]

Shove these stats up your ass you Bonner-loving morons:

Bonner
D rtg 107 (pts allowed per 100 possessions)
DWS 1.1 (# of wins contributed by a player due to his defense)

Blair
D rtg 99
DWS 2.9


McDyess
D rtg 102
DWS 1.8

Duncan
D rtg 99
DWS 3.8

Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

[itzsoweezee]

Finally, someone with a valid rebuttal. Do you mind sharing where you got these numbers from?

basketball-reference.com

[chazley]

basketball-reference.com

Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

[20beastie45]

Bonner Thread!!! He has choked in the past and will choke in the future!

Nice thread tho!

[itzsoweezee]

Those are interesting stats, but I think the real question is where does his 107 rating stack up against the league average. I've never claimed Bonner was more than a slightly above average defender, but these stats could or could not help me in that regard.

Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_advanced_stats.html

[20beastie45]

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

[chazley]

Blair and Duncan are number 8 and 10 in the league, respectively, based on defensive rating. At 107, Bonner is ranked 200th in the league, easily worse than ALL of the Spurs bigmen: http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2011_advanced_stats.html

itzsoweezee, thank you for actually taking the time to back up your argument with actual facts and stats. These numbers are pretty damning when it comes to proving Bonner is, in fact, a bad individual defender. When you combine these stats with the ones I provided in my original post though, I don't think it's sheer coincidence that Bonner shows up in some of our best defensive lineups. There are some explanations for this, some of which being Bonner rotates well on defense, he defends the pick and roll decently, and might actually be a better help defender than I or anyone else give him credit for.

The list actually puts Blair as the best defender on the Spurs, 12th overall in the league, so I do have to take their rankings with a grain of salt (Bonner is 181st, Duncan is 15th). Overall though, a decent list.

[chazley]

Hey Chazley, what are the Spurs best Rebounding lineups? Offensive and defensive? Defense means nothing if you can't grab the rebound.

Seriously question.

once again great thread!

A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.

[20beastie45]

A very good point Beastie, one that I overlooked.

Here are the top rebounding lineups the Spurs have (percentage of available rebounds rebounded):

1. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 57%
2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 56.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 56%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 53%
5. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 52%

He only shows up once on that list, however, we have to take into account the differences for each of these lineups if they are porous defensively.

The #1 ranked lineup actually has a very good points per possession allowed(0.95). When you combine that with the units rebounding ability, it is easily our best rebounding/defensive lineup.

The #2 ranked lineup with Bonner though is a very very close second, with a PPPA of 0.96.

This shows that Blair/Duncan and Bonner/McDyess are the two big man combos that work best in terms of defense and rebounding.


How about best Defensive/Rebounding line-ups since the all star game and against playoff contending teams?

Keep up the good research!!

[chazley]

Gonna throw out another nice stat... best lineups in terms of difference between points scored per possession and points allowed per possession. Can also say the numbers are extra points per possession compared to other team.

1. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - +0.37
2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - +0.35
3. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - +0.29
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - +0.24
5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess (Spurs best offensive lineup, surprisingly) - +0.23

Hill/Ginobili on each list, and Ginobili playing the 3 on each list. Definitely surprising

[chazley]

How about best Defensive/Rebounding line-ups since the all star game and against playoff contending teams?

Keep up the good research!!

I don't know how to look this up, sorry.

[gospursgojas]

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

[DeadlyDynasty]

I thought these stupid Nazi trolls were being retired.

This. They're stupid, offensive, and they need to go.

[Cessation]

Are we allowed to have a Hitler troll? These nazi trolls lack leadership, tbh.

[duncan228]

Are we allowed to have a Hitler troll?

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol


K6WaImbjvTE

[Nathan89]

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

95%idiots
5%smart people

[Nathan89]

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol


good stuff:rollin

[20beastie45]

How do you get banned from spurstalk?:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

[Cessation]

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol


lol

[DeadlyDynasty]

Hitler was banned from SpursTalk. :lol

Well played, milady :lol

[20beastie45]

OMFG!!!! That video is so fucking awesome...sorry for the language....LOLOLOLOLOL

[chazley]

Bonner sucks....end of story. He is a piss poor rebounder, his D is solid againts SF but against PF/C he is worthless. He does not take charges, is foul prone, is never in help pos, he suck.

Novak is a better player than Bonner.

Thanks for your fascinating input. Also want to thank you for the deep analysis and research you put into your post.

[chazley]

I dont get it...is this thread for only 95% of the idiots on the board? If so, why are 5% of the idiots not included? Who are the idiots in that 5%?

So basically, you just called 100% of Spurstalk idiots, and in the same point called yourself an idiot.

[G-Dawgg]

I can see that, Bonner isn't an exceptional individual defender, nor is he an intimidating shotblocker, but he's always been a solid post defender and he is smart enough to know where he needs to be in the team defensive scheme. He tries to rotate at the right times to the right places.
He may be the farthest thing from a lock-down defender or a defensive presence, but he works hard and isn't lazy on the defensive side of the ball. I like the effort.

[HarlemHeat37]

Bonner is obviously a very good regular season player, there's no problem with having him as a consistent rotation player during the regular season..the +/- numbers, both adjusted and unadjusted, support Bonner's success during the regular season..

I'm a Bonner supporter, but the die-hards like to point out his on/off +/- numbers, for obvious reasons..his regular season on/off is fantastic, because he's a solid regular season player..

However, the playoff numbers do tell a different story..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2010: +3.48..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in the playoffs: -8.53..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2009: +8.89..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in 2009: -12.27

The difference is massive..

[chazley]

Bonner is obviously a very good regular season player, there's no problem with having him as a consistent rotation player during the regular season..the +/- numbers, both adjusted and unadjusted, support Bonner's success during the regular season..

I'm a Bonner supporter, but the die-hards like to point out his on/off +/- numbers, for obvious reasons..his regular season on/off is fantastic, because he's a solid regular season player..

However, the playoff numbers do tell a different story..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2010: +3.48..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in the playoffs: -8.53..

Bonner's regular season on/off +/- in 2009: +8.89..
Bonner's playoffs on/off +/- in 2009: -12.27

The difference is massive..

Again, sample size.

Also, 2009 playoffs we didn't have Manu, and 2010 playoffs Tony was coming off the bench while recovering from his injury. Bonner heavily relies on both of those guys driving and kicking, and in turn they count on Bonner to spread the floor.

[Sean Cagney]

Again, sample size.

Also, 2009 playoffs we didn't have Manu, and 2010 playoffs Tony was coming off the bench while recovering from his injury. Bonner heavily relies on both of those guys driving and kicking, and in turn they count on Bonner to spread the floor.

Yes, but lately in big games he has bricked most of thos (Last three BIG GAMES has been horrible), and they are healthy now.

[chazley]

Yes, but lately in big games he has bricked most of thos (Last three BIG GAMES has been horrible), and they are healthy now.

Guess the Heat game where he went 6-7 on threes doesn't count. Or in the Thunder game when he went 5-9, including 2-3 on threes... both within the past month. But since we're restricting it to the last 3 big games, I guess you're right.

[Sean Cagney]

Guess the Heat game where he went 6-7 on threes doesn't count. Or in the Thunder game when he went 5-9, including 2-3 on threes... both within the past month. But since we're restricting it to the last 3 big games, I guess you're right.

I meant he last three games! You know what I was saying there! This is March now and going into April, what has he done the last three or so games against them? I know last night he got 2-7 threes, thats not good but more than he has done lately.

LOL you guys still believe in this guy, prove me wrong the last 4 or so games and playoffs then we will talk.

[Splits]

I meant he last three games! You know what I was saying there! This is March now and going into April, what has he done the last three or so games against them? I know last night he got 2-7 threes, thats not good but more than he has done lately.

LOL you guys still believe in this guy, prove me wrong the last 4 or so games and playoffs then we will talk.

You are not very smart.

[Splits]

Bonner is going to take a huge dump on all his haters when the playoffs come around, and none of these POS fucks like Sean Cagney will be around to see it. Because fat fucks like him only know how to talk shit, but when the shit goes the other way they are facing a shitstorm of shit in their face that they don't know how to deal with. Bonner, as the 8th rotation player, is fine. Sean Cagney will have a lot of shit on his face come playoff time, and then he (she/it) will never be heard from again and some other troll will be praising the Spurs offense for dominating other teams and it will be Sean Cagney in disguise. Dude is a tool, and a Splitter cock knobber.

[Cessation]

Bonner is going to take a huge dump on all his haters when the playoffs come around, and none of these POS fucks like Sean Cagney will be around to see it. Because fat fucks like him only know how to talk shit, but when the shit goes the other way they are facing a shitstorm of shit in their face that they don't know how to deal with. Bonner, as the 8th rotation player, is fine. Sean Cagney will have a lot of shit on his face come playoff time, and then he (she/it) will never be heard from again and some other troll will be praising the Spurs offense for dominating other teams and it will be Sean Cagney in disguise. Dude is a tool, and a Splitter cock knobber.

Smart people talk like that? lol

[chazley]

Smart people talk like that? lol

Refute it if you can.

[Cessation]

Refute it if you can.

I don't take trolls seriously, tbh.

[underdawg]

Refute it if you can.

I think you're spot on Chazley. In reality, Bonner is under utilized. He should be taking at least 10-12 three point attempts per game. With his high 3 pt. percentage, that would give him somewhere between 14 to 17 points per game. That would be huge for the Spurs come playoffs!

[Cessation]

I think you're spot on Chazley. In reality, Bonner is under utilized. He should be taking at least 10-12 three point attempts per game. With his high 3 pt. percentage, that would give him somewhere between 14 to 17 points per game. That would be huge for the Spurs come playoffs!

I agree, as chazley has shown, bonner is key to our championship hopes, that 50% from 3 is our secret weapon. Its time to Unleash The Ginger!!

[Obstructed_View]

Wasn't Roger Mason the thing the Spurs needed?

[chazley]

Wasn't Roger Mason the thing the Spurs needed?

Luckily we got Gary Neal, or else we would've needed him.

[chazley]

I don't take trolls seriously, tbh.

I don't take idiots seriously. Guess it's a wash. Get some facts or GTFO

[underdawg]

Bonner is going to take a huge dump on all his haters when the playoffs come around, and none of these POS fucks like Sean Cagney will be around to see it. Because fat fucks like him only know how to talk shit, but when the shit goes the other way they are facing a shitstorm of shit in their face that they don't know how to deal with. Bonner, as the 8th rotation player, is fine. Sean Cagney will have a lot of shit on his face come playoff time, and then he (she/it) will never be heard from again and some other troll will be praising the Spurs offense for dominating other teams and it will be Sean Cagney in disguise. Dude is a tool, and a Splitter cock knobber.

not sure where you get that Bonner is the 8th rotation player - he's at least 7th and if Hill keeps playing as poorly as he has, Bonner should be able to move up to 6th.

I know it was mentioned earlier in the year, but do you think Bonner still has a chance at Most Improved Player?

[chazley]

I think you're spot on Chazley. In reality, Bonner is under utilized. He should be taking at least 10-12 three point attempts per game. With his high 3 pt. percentage, that would give him somewhere between 14 to 17 points per game. That would be huge for the Spurs come playoffs!

Nah this would be stupid. He's perfect as a good 7th/8th man on a contending team taking his 4-5 shots per game.

[Cessation]

I don't take idiots seriously. Guess it's a wash. Get some facts or GTFO

lol troll is mad

[chazley]

lol troll is mad

lol idiot is mad that I exposed him.

[underdawg]

I don't take idiots seriously. Guess it's a wash. Get some facts or GTFO

What are the facts exaclty - Bonner is part of the best defensive lineups that the Spurs have?

If the Spurs rank 12th in points allowed and 12th in FG% allowed, what does that mean?

You're going about this the wrong way - the Spurs are no longer a great defensive team - at least not top 10.

Their strength is in their offensive ability and the reality is that The Red Rocket has not been turned loose yet. Give him 10-12 attempts per game and his points per game could jump as much as 10 points per game. He'd be extremely valuable to the Spurs offense then.

[Obstructed_View]

Luckily we got Gary Neal, or else we would've needed him.

He's been such a huge boost for the Knicks.

[underdawg]

Nah this would be stupid. He's perfect as a good 7th/8th man on a contending team taking his 4-5 shots per game.

now I'm confused - Bonner scoring more points per game would be stupid?

[Cessation]

You clearly describing yourself, #1 poster lol, thats shows a retard troll if there ever was one.

[chazley]

Lol, the conclusions you're making based on these stats, however, are dishonest.

haha, just saw this.. explain please (should be good).

[chazley]

He's been such a huge boost for the Knicks.

Read my sig if you wanna remember who won this argument before the season.

I'm super fuckin glad we have Gary Neal, he's 10x the player Mason will ever be, but if we didn't have Neal, I would want Mason on the Spurs.

[underdawg]

haha, just saw this.. explain please (should be good).

I'd like to see that explanation too - because at this point, I'm not sure what the conclusion has been.

Is it that Bonner shouldn't have a bad rap as a poor defensive player because, according to statistics, he's usually on the floor when the Spurs' mediorcre defense does its best?

[underdawg]

if we didn't have Neal, I would want Mason on the Spurs.

Wow - we have a winner.

[chazley]

My argument/conclusion is that Pop and the Spurs organization are smarter than all of us, and it's funny that people on Spurstalk think otherwise.

[chazley]

Wow - we have a winner.

Go back and read my Mason thread if you want to see where I annihilated all the naysayers about Mason. Ask Obstructed how that went.

[Obstructed_View]

Read my sig if you wanna remember who won this argument before the season.

I'm super fuckin glad we have Gary Neal, he's 10x the player Mason will ever be, but if we didn't have Neal, I would want Mason on the Spurs.

The fact that you make stupid statements and continue to restate them over and over until people get tired of trying to get you to see reason doesn't mean you won anything. The only thing to take from your signature is that I rightfully pegged you as a troll and an attention whore from your first post. Anyone who reads the bolded part above doesn't even need to bother to read the thread to know who lost that argument. :lol

[underdawg]

My argument/conclusion is that Pop and the Spurs organization are smarter than all of us, and it's funny that people on Spurstalk think otherwise.

It's not the folks on the internet forums that Pop needs to be smarter than - it's the other teams in the NBA.

Since he's changed his philosophy in favor of offense over defense, he hasn't quite been able to outsmart them yet.

[Obstructed_View]

Go back and read my Mason thread if you want to see where I annihilated all the naysayers about Mason. Ask Obstructed how that went.

Probably much like this one. Chazley makes a declaration that's moronic and indefensible, designed to draw lots of people to disagree with it (trolling). When there aren't any other threads to post in, people argue with him. He doesn't listen to anything anyone says, instead posting strawman arguments and insults, continually attempting to get the last word on anyone, regardless of whether or not it is relevant to the conversation. Then when people get tired of his shit, or if actual interesting threads start coming up, people abandon him and he declares victory.

If you'd like proof, Chazley still thinks Roger Mason would have been good for the Spurs.

[Obstructed_View]

My argument/conclusion is that Pop and the Spurs organization are smarter than all of us, and it's funny that people on Spurstalk think otherwise.

That's ironic, since most people are smarter than you are. It's funny that you think otherwise.

[Cessation]

lol "I would want Mason on the spurs" this troll is more retarded than I thought, definetly out of touch with reality

[underdawg]

Go back and read my Mason thread if you want to see where I annihilated all the naysayers about Mason. Ask Obstructed how that went.

no thanks - I already fell dumb for arguing with a laker fan about Bonner, much less about Mason.

[chazley]

I'm in the middle of a ton of poker tables or else I'd rebuttal all you guys since you're all obviously clueless, so gimme a few hours and I'll be back.

[Obstructed_View]

If I'd put the text that ended up in his sig in blue, would he have gotten it? No, probably not.

[chazley]

That's ironic, since most people are smarter than you are. It's funny that you think otherwise.

As a poster, all I basically do is defend Pop and the Spurs organization's decisions. Everyone who attacks me are the ones who think they know something the Spurs/Pop don't know. It's quite laughable really. Funny thing is, none of you have proof to back up what you're saying while I consistently provide facts/stats to back myself up.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm in the middle of a ton of poker tables or else I'd rebuttal all you guys since you're all obviously clueless, so gimme a few hours and I'll be back.

Yeah, those people need their drinks. Feel free to post up after your shift ends.

[Cessation]

Yeah, those people need their drinks. Feel free to post up after your shift ends.


lol

[chazley]

Yeah, those people need their drinks. Feel free to post up after your shift ends.

Online poker. Solid attempt at humor though.

[chazley]

It's not the folks on the internet forums that Pop needs to be smarter than - it's the other teams in the NBA.

Since he's changed his philosophy in favor of offense over defense, he hasn't quite been able to outsmart them yet.

You're right. We don't have the most wins ever as an organization through this point in our history, and our closest competitor in the loss column right now is 6 games back. Pop's decisions this year must've been really dumb.

[underdawg]

You're right. We don't have the most wins ever as an organization through this point in our history, and our closest competitor in the loss column right now is 6 games back. Pop's decisions this year must've been really dumb.

A championship this year would prove Pop's strategy was right all along - a #1 seed doesn't quite accomplish that. This team is built and has always been built to win a championship not just make the playoffs.

It's never been an argument of Pop's value as a hall of fame coach - it's that his current strategy of offensive emphasis (including the excessive mpg for Bonner) over defensive emphasis is flawed in it's purpose and past outcome.

[chazley]

A championship this year would prove Pop's strategy was right all along - a #1 seed doesn't quite accomplish that. This team is built and has always been built to win a championship not just make the playoffs.

It's never been an argument of Pop's value as a hall of fame coach - it's that his current strategy of offensive emphasis (including the excessive mpg for Bonner) over defensive emphasis is flawed in it's purpose and past outcome.

Don't state your guess that we won't win a championship this year because you presume we are offense oriented. With Duncan on the floor, we are a top 3 defense in the league, which is fact and not an opinion.

You're the epitome of just following the crowd and spitting out baseless opinions and trying to argue them. I know alot of unknowledgeable people will think I'm a hypocrite for saying that, but the fact is I research facts and base my opinions off of them. 95% of this board go off what they read by other posters or what they see.

[Cessation]

Sup scrah. Your shift over, I see.

[chazley]

Cessation you are so clueless it's funny. Sad thing is, 95% of Spurstalk are clueless homers who like to make Bonner their scapegoat for when things go bad and never give him credit when he does well. So, when you start spewing anti-Bonner rhetoric, you actually start to believe it, despite the fact you have zero facts to back yourself up. Again, come to me with a serious opinion backed up by facts and then we can get somewhere. In the meantime, it's fun dominating you and all the other idiots who jokingly think they're right.

[Cessation]

lol

[chazley]

Again, come in with facts to back your claims up or go crawl back where all the other Spurs fans with IQs below 80 talk about how Bonner brings our team down.

[Cessation]

Come on son, I've given you tons of attention as is, don't get greedy, now.

[20beastie45]

Chazley just stop already...please!!!!

look at my facts.....OMG....they are so awesome!!!

lol

[Strike]

Cessation you are so clueless it's funny. Sad thing is, 95% of Spurstalk are clueless homers who like to make Bonner their scapegoat for when things go bad and never give him credit when he does well. So, when you start spewing anti-Bonner rhetoric, you actually start to believe it, despite the fact you have zero facts to back yourself up. Again, come to me with a serious opinion backed up by facts and then we can get somewhere. In the meantime, it's fun dominating you and all the other idiots who jokingly think they're right.

When has he done well in the playoffs? When it really, really counts? Last year he posted playoff numbers of 5 PPG, 3.2 RPG, .3 BPG, .432 FG% and .370 3PT%. (Link here) (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/matt_bonner/career_stats.html) 17 minutes per game, and that's how he contributes? I'm not saying Boner is the one and only reason why the Spurs got owned in the 2nd round last year, but how, exactly, did he give SA a chance to win?

[Mel_13]

here ya go, Chaz:

http://www.nba.com/spurs/promotions/bonner_sacu_110317.html

[wunderkindepiphany]

Our second, third, fourth, and fifth best defensive lineups this season have included Bonner. Here are our top defensive lineups so far this season: (Numbers are points scored per opponent possession)

1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 0.87
T2. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 0.90
T2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 0.90
T4. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 0.93
T4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Splitter - 0.93

Note: Ginobili is on each list, once again proving my point that he is a lockdown defender.

In terms of shared win%, here are our best lineups:

1. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-McDyess-Blair - 87.5%
2. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Bonner-Duncan - 78.5%
3. Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 73.3%
4. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-Blair - 71.4%
5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Bonner-McDyess - 68.4%

Well well well, what do ya know. Bonner once again shows up on 4 of the top 5 lineups. But hey, I know some people are still not convinced. Bonner is white, they say. Therefore, he must be a really really really shitty defender. He isn't athletic they say, even though defense is about 20% athleticism. I guess all I can do is spew more FACTS and hope some of you catch on and stop following the opinion of 95% of Spurstalk who are complete dumbasses sometimes. Here we go:

Percentage of opponent field goals from close range (not sure what 82games defines as close range, but I assume its within 5 feet), according to lineup:

T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-McDyess-Duncan - 39%
T1. Parker-Hill-Ginobili-Jefferson-Duncan - 39%
3. Parker-Neal-Jefferson-Blair-Duncan - 34%
4. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan - 32%
T5. Parker-Hill-Jefferson-McDyess-Duncan - 31%
T5. Hill-Neal-Ginobili-Jefferson-McDyess - 31%

What do ya know, Bonner only in one of those lineups... He must be getting PUNISHED by all those bully 7-footers, cause, ya know, he's just getting annihilated on the block. People are pushing him right into the basket and just posterizing him repeatedly, while he cries and runs to Pop who reassures him "just make a three Matt cause you have zero purpose when you're on the floor other than to do that". I mean, the numbers would back that up, right???

One more Bonner fact I promise:

Best +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes):

1. Ginobili - +11.6
T2. Duncan - +10.6
T2. Bonner - +10.6
4. Hill - +9.1
5. Parker - +7.4

Yea yea yea, I know, still not convinced. I mean what are numbers and facts to the well trained eyes of the couch potato Spurs fans, who sees this guy running around like a T-rex, he must be bringing this team down. Pop and R.C. are just blind idiots with 4 championships since 1999, what do they know? I, the Spurstalk poster, am WAY smarter than those guys! And we have Splitter, who is the next coming of Dwight Howard! He's such a defensive force!

Well, sorry guys, but Splitter has sucked this year. I know Spurstalk experts think he is gonna be a beast against the Lakers and such cause, ya know, he's a 7-footer and god knows that he's gonna beast against Bynum and Pau when the lights come on!'

Yea well, you're wrong. Let me, again, give you facts:

Worst +/- per 48 minutes (must have played at least 5% of available minutes)

1. Anderson (barely qualifies) - -9.1
2. Quinn - -8.4
3. Splitter - -4.9
4. Neal +5.5
T5. Jefferson/McDyess - +6.4

Splitter has sucked big time. The fact is, he is almost over 10 points worse per 48 minutes than the only other rotation player on the list, Gary Neal. His actual +/- is the worst on the team, -51.

This is it for now. Might add some more stuff later if I still get some doubters.


You're big on statistics, but the one that I am curious about is "95%". How, exactly, did you figure that 95% of the Spurstalk posters are idiots? Show the math or I'm not buying it, buddy.

[chazley]

Come on son, I've given you tons of attention as is, don't get greedy, now.

I'd be happy if you never 'gave me attention' again, trust me.

[chazley]

When has he done well in the playoffs? When it really, really counts? Last year he posted playoff numbers of 5 PPG, 3.2 RPG, .3 BPG, .432 FG% and .370 3PT%. (Link here) (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/matt_bonner/career_stats.html) 17 minutes per game, and that's how he contributes? I'm not saying Boner is the one and only reason why the Spurs got owned in the 2nd round last year, but how, exactly, did he give SA a chance to win?

Already gone over this a million times.

[Cessation]

I can tell you're very trustworthy, lol.

[chazley]

I can tell you're very trustworthy, lol.

What's that supposed to mean

[Brazil]

chazley regulating ST per usual

[chazley]

chazley regulating ST per usual

Someone has to put the dumbasses in their place.

By the way, you aren't a dumbass if you disagree with me. You're only a dumbass if you make baseless opinions and try to present them as facts when arguing against me. I love nothing more than a really good discussion, and if you have facts/stats to back yourself up, I'm all for hearing you out and even changing my own opinion.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Note: Ginobili is on each list, once again proving my point that he is a lockdown defender.

I stopped reading after this... Now, I love Manu but a lockdown defender he is NOT. I'd put him in the "great help defender" category. He's just solid at one on one.

[Solid D]

Hey chazley. I think I found your blog. Enjoy.

http://nerdfighters.ning.com/profile/ChazleyDotson

[chazley]

I stopped reading after this... Now, I love Manu but a lockdown defender he is NOT. I'd put him in the "great help defender" category. He's just solid at one on one.

Already discussed this... I overstated the fact that he is a 'lockdown' defender, but I believe when he's at his best he's 80% of what Bowen was in his prime.

[chazley]

Hey chazley. I think I found your blog. Enjoy.

http://nerdfighters.ning.com/profile/ChazleyDotson

Low blow. Very low.

[DPG21920]

Chaz owning fools per the usual.

[underdawg]

Chaz owning fools per the usual.

Cheezley owns nothing but heartache for being a Bonner fan

[underdawg]

Duncan on the floor, we are a top 3 defense in the league, which is fact and not an opinion.

Duncan should get DPOY just for the fact that this "top 3 defense" gave up 64 in a half without him, but please go ahead and bring more of your facts.

[ShoogarBear]

chazley regulating ST per usual


Chaz owning fools per the usual.

Now that's sig material.

[Cessation]

2-6, 1-4 from 3, -14
24% on threes in last 9 games and counting

"but, but, .....he's part of the best defencive lineup this year"
...as he gets burned by whomever he's guarding almost every time

lol keep regulating troll

[Sean Cagney]

2-6, 1-4 from 3, -14
24% on threes in last 9 games and counting

"but, but, .....he's part of the best defencive lineup this year"
...as he gets burned by whomever he's guarding almost every time

lol keep regulating troll

BONER IS FUCKING SHYT! Atleast BONERS get up when it's time to perform, he is not even a fucking BONER, he is just fucking trash.... He is the worst player to ever get mins here for seasons, he is a piece of shit. :(:depressed:depressed
Chaz owning fools per the usual.

Bwhahahhaahhaahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahahhahahhaah aha :lmao:lmao, Yeah sure BONNER IS GOOD, you played yourself and he did too.......

I swear man this board makes me sick at times, I love the Spurs and want him to do well, but the fact is he is utter shit and will never be a bigtime performer! Terry is my most hated in this league, but Bonner is close and thats bad being he is on my fave team of all times.

[Cessation]

"Atleast BONERS get up when it's time to perform, he is not even a fucking BONER, he is just fucking trash"

lol

[chazley]

2-6, 1-4 from 3, -14
24% on threes in last 9 games and counting

"but, but, .....he's part of the best defencive lineup this year"
...as he gets burned by whomever he's guarding almost every time

lol keep regulating troll

Oh no shoot him, he's in a shooting slump. Why don't you quote the other SIXTY+ games we've played. It's like taking the temperature 9 straight days in december and using that as the average temperature for the whole year in south texas. It would be just dumb.

[chazley]

BONER IS FUCKING SHYT! Atleast BONERS get up when it's time to perform, he is not even a fucking BONER, he is just fucking trash.... He is the worst player to ever get mins here for seasons, he is a piece of shit. :(:depressed:depressed

Bwhahahhaahhaahhahahahhahahhahahhahahahahhahahhaah aha :lmao:lmao, Yeah sure BONNER IS GOOD, you played yourself and he did too.......

I swear man this board makes me sick at times, I love the Spurs and want him to do well, but the fact is he is utter shit and will never be a bigtime performer! Terry is my most hated in this league, but Bonner is close and thats bad being he is on my fave team of all times.

I'm tempted to just let you continue to embarrass yourself, but it's getting sad. Please stop posting in my threads, you bring nothing good and all you talk about is how Bonner sucks. Keep using one or two games from a 82-game sample to prove he sucks... you must've done real good in your statistics class in colle... wait nevermind.

[TE]

Oh no shoot him, he's in a shooting slump. Why don't you quote the other SIXTY+ games we've played. It's like taking the temperature 9 straight days in december and using that as the average temperature for the whole year in south texas. It would be just dumb.

Have you been blind the last couple of years when the regular season is just about to end and the playoff series begin?

Bonner chokes. It's been quite documented. The fact that we're using data to validate Bonner's struggles on offense late in the season solidifies all the anti-Bonner claims.

[chazley]

Cheezley owns nothing but heartache for being a Bonner fan

I'm not a Bonner fan/homer, I just realize the importance that he has on our team, and Spurs fans in general don't.

[chazley]

Have you been blind the last couple of years when the regular season is just about to end and the playoff series begin?

Bonner chokes. It's been quite documented. The fact that we're using data to validate Bonner's struggles on offense late in the season solidifies all the anti-Bonner claims.

You're using a 9-game sample to prove that Bonner sucks?

You guys can't be fucking serious.

Manu goes through these kind of slumps all the time, next time he has a bad 9-game stretch let's make sure we toss him to the fucking curb, right? Hell, even Kobe has bad 9-game stretches.

[TE]

You're using a 9-game sample to prove that Bonner sucks?

You guys can't be fucking serious.

Manu goes through these kind of slumps all the time, next time he has a bad 9-game stretch let's make sure we toss him to the fucking curb, right? Hell, even Kobe has bad 9-game stretches.

Yeah, players go through tough shooting stretches. It's basketball. That's what happens in basketball if you didn't know already which I think you should. However, good role players at least do something (do the small things. i.e., intangibles) while they have bad shooting games.

-Bonner can't rebound unless a ball falls right into his chest.
-Bonner can't play solid 24 second defense without being beat or scored on.
-Bonner has terrible spacing when he tries to do something other than spot up for a three.
-Bonner doesn't exactly have the best basketball IQ of our bigs (some nights it's better than Blair's, other nights it's below)
-Bonner is only valuable and useful when in feugo.


Now see the points I've just typed up for you? Okay good. Now let's consider how much of a primetime player Bonner is in crunch time.

Let's see, we don't have to go far. Watch games of the 2009 and 2010 postseason.


Bonner is only good when he's hot. CHECK
Bonner chokes in crunch time. CHECK

Therefore, Bonner should not be used in crunch time or in big games.

[chazley]

Yeah, players go through tough shooting stretches. It's basketball. That's what happens in basketball if you didn't know already which I think you should. However, good role players at least do something (do the small things. i.e., intangibles) while they have bad shooting games.

-Bonner can't rebound unless a ball falls right into his chest.
-Bonner can't play solid 24 second defense without being beat or scored on.
-Bonner has terrible spacing when he tries to do something other than spot up for a three.
-Bonner doesn't exactly have the best basketball IQ of our bigs (some nights it's better than Blair's, other nights it's below)
-Bonner is only valuable and useful when in feugo.


Now see the points I've just typed up for you? Okay good. Now let's consider how much of a primetime player Bonner is in crunch time.

Let's see, we don't have to go far. Watch games of the 2009 and 2010 postseason.


Bonner is only good when he's hot. CHECK
Bonner chokes in crunch time. CHECK

Therefore, Bonner should not be used in crunch time or in big games.

You're the one trying to say I'm misinterpreting a 9-game sample? You're kidding right?

I'm not gonna argue that Bonner is a great rebounder. Never have, never will.

Again, look at the STATS. He is a part of 4 out of the 5 best defensive lineups we have.

You're gonna argue that Bonner has terrible spacing. Laughable. When does he ever do anything other than spot up for threes or pick and pop on offense? On top of that, his turnover rate is minuscule, so he is highly effective.

Baseless claim that Bonner has a low basketball IQ. How often do you see him make stupid decisions on the court? Again, his turnover rate is very small, so he's not making bad decisions on offense. If you can provide he does stupid things on defense, go ahead, but all the stats I have say otherwise.

I would say Bonner averages out to be a 43-45% 3-point shooter. If I'm Tony/Tim/Manu, I want that guy to be shooting threes and be on the court for as long as he isn't bringing the team down.

Bonner actually has very impressive clutch stats. Get your facts straight, because you're dead wrong and come off as an idiot.

[chazley]

Now that's sig material.

If you are in my sig, it is because I resoect you. It is elite company.

[Calispursfan11]

Please Pop, listen to chaz

John, it's great to see you have reemerged.

[ShoogarBear]

It is elite company.

http://jolieodell.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/entrepreneur.jpg?w=640&h=392&crop=1

[TE]

You're the one trying to say I'm misinterpreting a 9-game sample? You're kidding right?

I'm not gonna argue that Bonner is a great rebounder. Never have, never will.

Again, look at the STATS. He is a part of 4 out of the 5 best defensive lineups we have.

You're gonna argue that Bonner has terrible spacing. Laughable. When does he ever do anything other than spot up for threes or pick and pop on offense? On top of that, his turnover rate is minuscule, so he is highly effective.

Baseless claim that Bonner has a low basketball IQ. How often do you see him make stupid decisions on the court? Again, his turnover rate is very small, so he's not making bad decisions on offense. If you can provide he does stupid things on defense, go ahead, but all the stats I have say otherwise.

I would say Bonner averages out to be a 43-45% 3-point shooter. If I'm Tony/Tim/Manu, I want that guy to be shooting threes and be on the court for as long as he isn't bringing the team down.

Bonner actually has very impressive clutch stats. Get your facts straight, because you're dead wrong and come off as an idiot.

:lmao Defending Bonner. Look at stats, look at everything you want. Watch a game, and when you do, ask yourself if having Bonner out there is good at all. And mind you, don't make this assessment when Bonner has hit 6 out of 6 from the three point line. Actually take the time to analyze the shortcomings of a player, I assure you an illumination.

I'm the type of person that likes to see the minority point of view before choosing whether to argue for or against something. Now, I've considered my default position but come the fuck on. You come out to be as retarded as any poster on this site. Literally dude, watch a game before defending Bonner.

[Brazil]

Someone has to put the dumbasses in their place.

By the way, you aren't a dumbass if you disagree with me. You're only a dumbass if you make baseless opinions and try to present them as facts when arguing against me. I love nothing more than a really good discussion, and if you have facts/stats to back yourself up, I'm all for hearing you out and even changing my own opinion.

absolutely you're good at regulating dumbasses, this is what you do, you regulate dumbasses

[Brazil]

:lmao Defending Bonner. Look at stats, look at everything you want. Watch a game, and when you do, ask yourself if having Bonner out there is good at all. And mind you, don't make this assessment when Bonner has hit 6 out of 6 from the three point line. Actually take the time to analyze the shortcomings of a player, I assure you an illumination.

I'm the type of person that likes to see the minority point of view before choosing whether to argue for or against something. Now, I've considered my default position but come the fuck on. You come out to be as retarded as any poster on this site. Literally dude, watch a game before defending Bonner.

stats don't lie dude, if you have a decent argument chaz will listen to you but saying Red rock is bad just because you watch the game is dumb. Are you stating that you are more intelligent than HOF greg pop. You're biaised watching bonner because you're a bonner hater, watching and having an opinion based on that is gay, watch the stat instead.

[Cessation]

I agree, don't watch the game, watch the stat.

[chazley]

:lmao Defending Bonner. Look at stats, look at everything you want. Watch a game, and when you do, ask yourself if having Bonner out there is good at all. And mind you, don't make this assessment when Bonner has hit 6 out of 6 from the three point line. Actually take the time to analyze the shortcomings of a player, I assure you an illumination.

I'm the type of person that likes to see the minority point of view before choosing whether to argue for or against something. Now, I've considered my default position but come the fuck on. You come out to be as retarded as any poster on this site. Literally dude, watch a game before defending Bonner.

Rofl, you just told me to watch a game where Bonner does bad, and THEN make my judgement on him without taking into account ANY of his good games. On top of that, you tell me to only focus on his shortcomings.

Come. The. Fuck. On. Can anyone make a valid argument? Honestly, I could think of plenty of counterpoints you guys could make, but instead it is' just watch, you'll see he sucks'. Honestly, what Bonner does is not glorified or doesn't jump out at you. He has the ball in his hands 1% of the game, of course he won't jump out at you. All he does is be an exemplary offensive player with an average defensive game. He is perfect for this team because he plays near-perfectly off the ball for this team.

[chazley]

On top of that, every mistake is magnified. Could you imagine if every mistake Manu made was magnified and he was the scapegoat for this team? It's pathetic that you guys actually believe what you say just based on what other people say and what you see. Newsflash: No one here is anywhere near an expert at basketball, when you compare everyone on this board and on the internet with people who actually work for NBA organizations. I simply defend the organizations decisions, and people make me out to be a dumbass. Instead, the joke is on all of you.

[Sean Cagney]

Rofl, you just told me to watch a game where Bonner does bad, and THEN make my judgement on him without taking into account ANY of his good games. On top of that, you tell me to only focus on his shortcomings.

Come. The. Fuck. On. Can anyone make a valid argument? Honestly, I could think of plenty of counterpoints you guys could make, but instead it is' just watch, you'll see he sucks'. Honestly, what Bonner does is not glorified or doesn't jump out at you. He has the ball in his hands 1% of the game, of course he won't jump out at you. All he does is be an exemplary offensive player with an average defensive game. He is perfect for this team because he plays near-perfectly off the ball for this team.

And when he starts missing shots later in the year what does he do exactly? I mean he does that it seems right? He is not an average defender either he is not good, nor can he rebound for his size. If his shot is not falling he is worthless, right? I mean if it is not on he is out there doing noting right?

[chazley]

And when he starts missing shots later in the year what does he do exactly? I mean he does that it seems right? He is not an average defender either he is not good, nor can he rebound for his size. If his shot is not falling he is worthless, right? I mean if it is not on he is out there doing noting right?

Please stop posting in my thread. You're just rehashing your argument over and over. If I wanna see regurgitation I'll youtube a camel.

[Sean Cagney]

Please stop posting in my thread. You're just rehashing your argument over and over. If I wanna see regurgitation I'll youtube a camel.

You don't want to hear the truth about Bonner thats all! He is an average role player at best, poop uses him more than that it seems :( Hell POOP is an idiot for it at times it seems. Bonner is a three specialist, if hot he is good if not he is nothing, he is no more or less!

[chazley]

You don't want to hear the truth about Bonner thats all! He is an average role player at best, poop uses him more than that it seems :( Hell POOP is an idiot for it at times it seems. Bonner is a three specialist, if hot he is good if not he is nothing, he is no more or less!

No, I keep owning you over and over and you refuse to budge from your baseless opinions, even when I throw the book of facts/stats at you. Please leave and don't come back. Arguing with people who are blind believers and don't bother to back themselves up with proof are a waste of my time. I can respect someone who disagrees with me if they're willing to provide proof and not use tiny sample sizes of a player's career to make arguments.

[Sean Cagney]

No, I keep owning you over and over and you refuse to budge from your baseless opinions, even when I throw the book of facts/stats at you. Please leave and don't come back. Arguing with people who are blind believers and don't bother to back themselves up with proof are a waste of my time. I can respect someone who disagrees with me if they're willing to provide proof and not use tiny sample sizes of a player's career to make arguments.

You have not won one argument in here since I have seen you, you lose them all infact! You are Bonner or his wife I swear! You lost everytime you mention this dude, period. Infact look at his stats lately and you lost! Playoffs you lost. Stop it, just stop it you are not winning here. You throw some bs I throw stats out, I throw out facts and you do this b.s about one game or so later in the year.

Man you are not winning here, most know it but you, stop it broh you lost. Bonner proves us right every year and is again, you stay sticking up for this garbage player and sink with him too! He is not good, face it he is average as helll and if his three is not falling he sucks.

[chazley]

You have not won one argument in here since I have seen you, you lose them all infact! You are Bonner or his wife I swear! You lost everytime you mention this dude, period. Infact look at his stats lately and you lost! Playoffs you lost. Stop it, just stop it you are not winning here. You throw some bs I throw stats out, I throw out facts and you do this b.s about one game or so later in the year.

Man you are not winning here, most know it but you, stop it broh you lost. Bonner proves us right every year and is again, you stay sticking up for this garbage player and sink with him too! He is not good, face it he is average as helll and if his three is not falling he sucks.

So much fail.

Bonner still shot 37% from three in last year's playoffs, and you act like he shoots 20%.

Also, love hearing the argument 'when he three isn't falling he sucks'. The fact is, defenses are going to stay like glue on Bonner unless he misses his first 3-4 shots. Until then, he keeps an extra man out of the paint and defenses are required to respect him, and they do. Rarely does he miss that many threes in a row though. The dude leads the NBA in 3-pt%.

[mexicanjunior]

This thread is silly...