ESPN Insider Request

[k_nguyen93]

Debate: Who is Coach of the Year?

Obviously Broussard said Thibs over Pop but I'm curious as to why Bucher picked Pop though. He's been on Bulls wagon all year long and Pop owned him on national television.

[Rummpd]

Either a fine and very legit choice - Bulls get first seed in East let them have the glory as long as Spurs get the ring.

After last night I am not sure at some times Pop recently is not really worthy of this, with what he has done (or more importantly not done in developing) Splitter this year, his overplay of small ball, and his revolving 13-15 man BS.

However, if Spurs close with 64 plus games hard to argue against Pop for changing somewhat with the times.

[The Btown Spur]

Question: Who is the Coach of the Year?

http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/broussard_chris_55.jpg BROUSSARD: With San Antonio running away with the league's best record, I've been among those who feel that Gregg Popovich is the clear-cut Coach of the Year. But as the season nears its conclusion, I now believe Pop has serious competition coming out of Chicago. So I'm going to make an argument for Tom Thibodeau.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/bucher_ric_55.jpg BUCHER: I have no doubt that a lot of voters will put Thibodeau at the top of their ballot; he might actually be the favorite based on the way voters generally pick the COY, since the guy who takes a bad or mediocre team and raises it a level generally gets more recognition than the coach who takes a good team and makes it great. I'm not taking anything away from Thibodeau -- he has done a fantastic job in his first season as a head coach. But there are plenty of factors other than coaching that have led to the Bulls' improvement this season over last, including both a vastly improved roster and superstar in Derrick Rose (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3456/derrick-rose). But the Spurs have run away with the best record of the league with essentially the same cast as last season because of how Pop is utilizing those pieces.

http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/broussard_chris_55.jpg CB: Vastly improved? Are you kidding me? Yes, they added Carlos Boozer (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1703/carlos-boozer), a legitimate All-Star-caliber big man, but the fact that he's missed 23 games has hindered his impact on this team. Beyond that, the Bulls have gone 15-8 -- an impressive .652 winning percentage -- without Boozer. Outside of Boozer, they added Kyle Korver (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2011/kyle-korver), Keith Bogans (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1995/keith-bogans), Kurt Thomas (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/846/kurt-thomas) and Omer Asik (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3414/omer-asik) -- good role players who combine to average 20 points and 14 rebounds a game. But last season they had John Salmons (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1726/john-salmons) (15 ppg), Kirk Hinrich (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1981/kirk-hinrich) (11 ppg), Tyrus Thomas (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3032/tyrus-thomas) (9 ppg, 6 rpg) Brad Miller (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/556/brad-miller) (9 ppg, 5 rpg) and Jannero Pargo (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1821/jannero-pargo) (5 ppg). Salmons and Hinrich are better than Korver and Bogans, and Thomas and Miller are at least even with Kurt and Asik. Not to mention the contributions of a solid Pargo. I'd say last season's role players are better than this season's.
When you factor in that Joakim Noah (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3224/joakim-noah) has missed 31 games, your "vastly improved roster" argument gets crushed. I agree that the addition of Boozer gives the Bulls an overall better team. BUT, with Boozer and Noah missing 54 games combined, Chicago hasn't enjoyed the full benefit of that improvement. Yet despite the injuries, Thibodeau has the Bulls atop the East -- ahead of more talented Boston and Miami teams. That's COY material.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/bucher_ric_55.jpg RB: I have to ask, because you do this all the time in these debates: What NBA team measures its players by their scoring and rebounding averages? I don't know of one, because nothing could be more meaningless taken by themselves. Teams measure efficiency and production per minute in conjunction with the role they're being asked to fill -- and that's where this Bulls' squad is vastly improved. Kurt Thomas is vastly more efficient than Brad Miller as both a scorer and rebounder. Kyle Korver is a vastly better 3-point shooter than anybody the Bulls had last season. Ronnie Brewer (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2991/ronnie-brewer) and Keith Bogans are vastly more productive, if you combine their defense with their offense, than Salmons and Flip Murray. The Bulls, collectively, are scoring more points while taking fewer shots. Even without Boozer, the Bulls are a significantly better team this season.
The one guy whose averages you could have listed as a reflection of his improvement is Rose, because he's the one guy whose role as the main cog gives this season's versus. last season's averages some meaning -- but you somehow skipped him. I can only assume because you know, as I do, that his work in the gym over the summer and with Team USA changed his game; it wasn't Thibodeau.
On the flip side, Richard Jefferson (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1006/richard-jefferson)'s transformation is a direct result of working with Popovich. He is a catch-and-shoot threat now as never before, especially from 3-point range (43 percent over 32 percent last season) which has opened space for George Hill (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3438/george-hill), Manu Ginobili (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/272/manu-ginobili) and Tony Parker (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1015/tony-parker). Of course, if you were just looking at Jefferson's scoring and rebounding averages, you'd say he's gotten worse, because those have dipped -- instead of crediting him for the vast improvement he made over the summer by retooling his game under Pop's tutelage.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/broussard_chris_55.jpg CB: Obviously, there are several other factors that go into determining how productive a player is, but for you to belittle scoring and rebounding averages is just ludicrous. Scoring and rebounding averages are only how All-Star berths, All-NBA teams, lottery picks, Hall-of-Fame inductions, max-level contracts and Top 50 All-Time lists are determined. Again, not trying to discount efficiency, intangibles and things like that, but for you to act as if PPG and RPG are virtually irrelevant makes no sense.
But just to dismantle your argument even more, I'll play your game and refer you to John Hollinger's PER numbers. As you well know, they measure much more than the categories you so despise (scoring and rebounding) in an effort to measure true efficiency and productivity. Korver's PER this season is 13.7, Asik's is 12.3 and Bogans' 8.7. Not very strong. On the other hand, last year, Salmon's PER was 14.7, Hakim Warrick (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2794/hakim-warrick)'s was 15.7, Ty Thomas' was 16.8, Brad Miller's was 13.0, Kirk Hinrich's was 11.6 and Flip Murray's was 11.7. Case closed. Let's move on.
You act as if Thibodeau has nothing to do with the Bulls' improvement. Has it ever occurred to you that they "score more points while taking fewer shots'' because they are well-coached? I think I've proven that the Bulls' players (outside of the banged-up Boozer) were better last season, but Thibodeau has done an outstanding job of putting guys in the right places and positions to be successful. He's done an outstanding job of creating a system that suits his club and maximizes its talent and potential. And with his best defender (Noah) missing approximately half the season -- and while adding two very poor defenders (Boozer, Korver) -- Thibodeau has the Bulls allowing opponents to shoot just 42.8 percent from the floor. That's incredible, and a true sign of excellent coaching.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/bucher_ric_55.jpg RB: Can't close a case that has that many holes in it. You cited scoring and rebounding averages -- nothing else -- to compare different players from different seasons and made it out as if that defined who was better. That is ludicrous.
As for PER, it operates off box-score statistics, which doesn't account for a dozen advanced statistical categories teams now are able to track. Nor does it account for what a particular player's role is. By way of example: Antonio McDyess (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/530/antonio-mcdyess) has a better PER than Manu Ginobili. Does that mean McDyess is better? More valuable? You seem to think it does. And you would be a party of one on that notion.
Thibodeau has been a huge part of the Bulls' success this season, second only to Rose. That's why he'll be on my ballot among the top three coaches. And his coaching of defense with the Bulls has been as spectacular as it was in Boston. But offensively? Rose certainly looks to see what Thibodeau wants, but so much of what they get is off his sheer ability to get into the paint no matter how many defenders an opponent throws at him, or pull up and nail jumpers when he recognizes the defense has collapsed.
Maybe you're confusing Chicago's offense with San Antonio's, because that truly is a product of their system and synchronicity, as well as Popovich transforming that system to accommodate the changing strengths of his players. The Spurs' defense has slipped -- because of age, not oversight -- and yet their win total has increased.
Tim Duncan (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/215/tim-duncan) has quietly become a jump-shooting big man who no longer draws double-teams, and yet the Spurs' offensive efficiency is the highest it's been in the past four seasons. Their best player, Manu, averages 30 minutes a game, and no one averages more than Tony Parker's 32, and yet they have the fifth-most efficient offense in the league. It's nothing short of incredible to use a rotation that is so varied and deep with that sort of proficiency. They added nothing more than a 26-year-old journeyman from Europe (Gary Neal (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4300/gary-neal)) to their rotation and have already won seven more games than last season and have run away with the league's best record.
I have all the respect in the world for what Thibodeau has done. He's developed a relationship with Rose that mirrors what Popovich has with Duncan, and his work ethic is second to none. But Thibodeau's superstar is just that, a superstar of the highest magnitude right now. Pop is milking what Duncan still has and making key contributors out of guys like Neal, Matt Bonner (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1996/matt-bonner) and DeJuan Blair (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3965/dejuan-blair). And Pop has done it at a pace no one else -- not the Lakers, not the Celtics, not the Heat, nor the Bulls -- have come close to this season.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/broussard_chris_55.jpg CB: To answer your question, no, I would not take McDyess over Ginobili, because I also factor in (maybe unlike you) scoring average, plus other factors. You've dismissed PPG, RPG and PER, so I guess you're going with the Ric Bucher Eye Test. OK, whatever.
I'm not going to disparage Pop one iota because he's done a terrific job and had been my runaway COY for the bulk of the season. But Thibodeau is a rookie coach, has a backup starting at 2-guard (Bogans) and has lost his second- and third-best players for 54 games. Also, in a conference that features a four-All-Star team with a terrific coach (Boston), and a three-All-Star team with a solid coach (Miami), he has led a team with one superstar to the best record.
And while Rose is having an MVP-caliber season, he is not the only reason they're winning, as you seem to believe. As of Feb. 24, the Bulls were actually outscoring their opponents when Rose was on the bench! At that point (55 games), Chicago had outscored opponents by 51 points (4 points 9 points every 100 possessions) without Rose. When you consider that Noah and Boozer were also missing for many of those Rose-less minutes, you can do nothing but stand and applaud the job Thibodeau has done.
http://a.espncdn.com/i/columnists/bucher_ric_55.jpg RB: I look at stats as much as anybody, but I try not to use them to say things they can't or don't. I'm not going to compare averages in two of the broadest categories and use it to say one player is better than the other. Not when I know a selfish player can score a lot of points at the expense of his team. Or that a guy can focus on rebounds at the expense of defensive rotations. And, in this case, not when all the other statistics (FG%, production per minute, A/TO) undercut the meaning of the two lone categories you cited. Especially when we're talking about role players. Efficiency defines a role player's value as much as anything. (That's what Chris Bosh (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1977/chris-bosh) is finding out; it's why he said he has a million new things to learn and doesn't expect to have a handle on the role until next season.)
If Thibodeau were doing all this with the same cast as last season, the argument for him as COY would be a lot stronger. Maybe even overwhelming. But Bulls' management, having a handle on what Rose can do, built a roster better-suited to him. They hired Thibodeau the first week of June, so they had all summer to add pieces specifically for his system. Honestly, I don't care how you measure the individual complementary pieces the Bulls have this season versus last season; collectively, they fit together so much better than last season's Chicago team. If you want to denigrate me for being able to see that, no problem.
That's where Popovich's performance this year is a cut above. The change in the way the Spurs play hasn't been a transformation as much as a progression, but Pop has been the architect. He has deftly taken the same pieces now, when they are clearly not as individually good as they were five years ago, and squeezed more out of them than ever before, when the field at the top of the league is more crowded than it's ever been.

[ManuBalboa]

Tim Duncan (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/215/tim-duncan) has quietly become a jump-shooting big man who no longer draws double-teams, and yet the Spurs' offensive efficiency is the highest it's been in the past four seasons. Their best player, Manu, averages 30 minutes a game, and no one averages more than Tony Parker's 32, and yet they have the fifth-most efficient offense in the league. It's nothing short of incredible to use a rotation that is so varied and deep with that sort of proficiency. They added nothing more than a 26-year-old journeyman from Europe (Gary Neal (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/4300/gary-neal)) to their rotation and have already won seven more games than last season and have run away with the league's best record.

I have all the respect in the world for what Thibodeau has done. He's developed a relationship with Rose that mirrors what Popovich has with Duncan, and his work ethic is second to none. But Thibodeau's superstar is just that, a superstar of the highest magnitude right now. Pop is milking what Duncan still has and making key contributors out of guys like Neal, Matt Bonner (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1996/matt-bonner) and DeJuan Blair (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3965/dejuan-blair). And Pop has done it at a pace no one else -- not the Lakers, not the Celtics, not the Heat, nor the Bulls -- have come close to this season.http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8749/1300152395676.gif

[TE]

CB is a spurs hater. What gives?

[cd98]

Not mentioned: East has four good teams and the rest suck. West goes 11 deep. That means Chicago can fatten it's record easier by beating all the cupcake teams in the east. Take an injury depleted Bulls team and put them in the West and there probably a 4-5 seed.

[L.I.T]

Good lord, RB beat down CB in that debate. And I don't even like RB as an analyst that much.

[DieMrBond]

Broussard as per usual showing his intense hatred of the Spurs...

That debate turned a little bit nasty!

[Manu-of-steel]

RB with goods! Pop is COY!

[024]

COY is cursed anyways.

[CubanSucks]

Not mentioned: East has four good teams and the rest suck. West goes 11 deep. That means Chicago can fatten it's record easier by beating all the cupcake teams in the east. Take an injury depleted Bulls team and put them in the West and there probably a 4-5 seed.

most definitely


I think all we get out of this thread is the confirmation of what an ugly motherfucker Broussard is. He OBViously got the worst of both races...(I put OBV cause Broussard always talks like that, extremely emphasizes the 'ah' sound: LebrOn James, Chris BOsh)

[ALVAREZ6]

most definitely


I think all we get out of this thread is the confirmation of what an ugly motherfucker Broussard is. He OBViously got the worst of both races...(I put OBV cause Broussard always talks like that, extremely emphasizes the 'ah' sound: LebrOn James, Chris BOsh)

Yeah Broussard is so damn annoying when he speaks, and to be quite honest it's not just when he does the ahh sound, everything is annoying.