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DarrinS
03-29-2011, 10:24 AM
http://www.slate.com/id/2289587/pagenum/all/




The most heartening single image of the past month—eclipsing even the bravery and dignity of the civilian fighters against despotism in Syria and Libya—was the sight of Hoshyar Zebari arriving in Paris to call for strong action against the depraved regime of Col. Muammar Qaddafi. Here was the foreign minister of Iraq, and the new head of the Arab League, helping to tilt the whole axis of local diplomacy against one-man rule. In May, Iraq will act as host to the Arab League summit, and it will be distinctly amusing and highly instructive to see which Arab leaders have the courage, or even the ability, to leave their own capitals and attend. The whole scene is especially gratifying for those of us who remember Zebari as the dedicated exile militant that he was 10 years ago, striving to defend his dispossessed people from the effects of Saddam Hussein's chemical weapons.


Can anyone imagine how the Arab spring would have played out if a keystone Arab state, oil-rich and heavily armed with a track record of intervention in its neighbors' affairs and a history of all-out mass repression against its own civilians, were still the private property of a sadistic crime family? As it is, to have had Iraq on the other scale from the outset has been an unnoticed and unacknowledged benefit whose extent is impossible to compute. And the influence of Iraq on the Libyan equation has also been uniformly positive in ways that are likewise often overlooked.

On the first point, I admit that Egyptian and Tunisian and other demonstrators did not take to the streets waving Iraqi flags, as if in emulation. (Though Saad-Eddin Ibrahim, intellectual godfather of the Egyptian democracy movement, did publicly hail the fall of Saddam as an inspiration, and many leaders of the early Lebanese "spring" spoke openly in similar terms.) This reticence is quite understandable since, apart from the northern Kurdish region of Iraq from which Foreign Minister Zebari hails, the liberation of the country was not entirely the work of its own people. But this point has become a more arguable one since the Arab League itself admitted that there are certain regimes that are impervious to unassisted overthrow from within. Qaddafi's is pre-eminently one of these, and Saddam's was notoriously so, as the repeated terror-bombings and gassings of the Shiite and Kurdish populations amply proved. Meanwhile, Iraq already has, albeit in rudimentary and tenuous form, the free press, the written constitution, and the parliamentary election system that is the minimum demand of Arab civil society. It has also passed through a test of fire in which the Bin Ladenists threw everything they had against an emergent democracy and were largely defeated and discredited. These are lessons and experiences that are useful not just for Mesopotamia.

As for the Iraq effect on Libya: Here is what I was told in confidence by the British diplomat who helped negotiate the surrender of Qaddafi's stockpile of WMD. Not by any means a neoconservative (a breed in any case rare in her majesty's Foreign and Commonwealth Office), he emphasized three factors. First, and on this occasion at least, the West had extremely good intelligence and was able to astonish and demoralize Qaddafi by the amount it knew about his secret programs. Added to this, and acting cumulatively over time, was the adamant persistence of the Scottish courts in the matter of the Lockerbie atrocity. (Don't mess with Scottish law, a maxim imperfectly understood by the sort of people who style themselves "king of kings.") Third, and very important in the timing, was Qaddafi's abject fear at watching the fate of Saddam Hussein. This has been amply reconfirmed by many Libyan officials in the hearing of many of my friends. He did, after all, approach George W. Bush and Tony Blair, not the United Nations. So now Qaddafi's stockpiles are under lock and key in Oak Ridge, Tenn. —their trace elements having successfully incriminated the A.Q. Khan network in Pakistan—and who can conceivably wish it had been otherwise?

But even with his fangs drawn, Qaddafi remained a filthy nuisance. As the New York Times reported in a brilliant dispatch last week, he forced Western oil companies to pay the $1.5 billion fine levied on him for Lockerbie. He continued to deprive his people—just look at how poor and scruffy everybody is when seen on television—while squandering Libya's immense wealth on personal prestige projects. His bloody interventions in Liberia and Darfur and Chad—where yet another civilian airliner was blown up, this time a French one—should long ago have earned him an indictment for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Like Saddam Hussein, he has flagrantly and hysterically insisted on defining himself as the problem, the fons et origo of Libya's misery and the region's woes. Why, then, do we coyly insist on the pretence that we are targeting "his forces" but not him?

In Britain, for example, the argument has reached farcical proportions. Nobody really doubts that it was a British cruise missile that plastered Qaddafi's Bab-al-Azizya "compound" the other day, but while Prime Minister David Cameron says that the dictator might conceivably be considered a target at some stage, his chief of defense staff, Gen. Sir David Richards, says "absolutely not," because the U.N. resolution does not cover the contingency. In Washington, President Barack Obama rightly says that Qaddafi "must go," but the mission itself is described as one with the objective of protecting civilians from massacre. Even in straight or quasi-technical military speak, this is incoherent. If the words command and control have any meaning, they surely identify the slobbering monarch who has commanded and controlled Libyans for far too long.

Hoshyar Zebari happily cited as precedent the no-fly zone that for a long time protected northern and southern Iraq from Saddam Hussein's helicopter gunships. But he knows perfectly well that the logic of this is inexorable. Every day, Saddam's ground forces fired on those planes. Every day, the post-Kuwait cease-fire agreement became more frayed and breached. Every day, it became plainer that Iraq was the miserable hostage to the whims of a single tyrant.

The immediate task now is to assimilate those lessons, shorten the time in which the knowledge gained can be applied, call the evil by its right name, and face Qaddafi with a stark choice between his own death and his appearance in the dock. It is morally unthinkable that he should emerge from this episode with even a rag of authority to call his own, and it is morally feeble not to say so out loud. The ugly and clumsy words mission creep take on a sudden beauty all of their own. When the Arab League meets in May, it should welcome a new Libyan provisional government on the soil of a free Iraq. Then we will have closed the circle—and vindicated all those brave people who fell in bringing down the first and worst bastion of the ancien regime.

Winehole23
03-29-2011, 10:46 AM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Hitchens wishes to rehabilitate the strategic debacle of the Iraq War and his own reputation. Very few will be fooled.

MannyIsGod
03-29-2011, 11:09 AM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Hitchens wishes to rehabilitate the strategic debacle of the Iraq War and his own reputation. Very few will be fooled.

He completely fails to recognize - and I mean COMPLETELY - that Sadaam was incapable of interfering with anyone in 2003. He was as toothless as they come and couldn't even control portions of his own country and yet he was going to influence possible rebellions around him? Right.

Furthermore, its a god damn shame that people in the West keep trying to take credit for what is happening over there. What is happening is an inevitability of oppressed peoples because of their longing to be free.

I do wonder what the uprisings in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and Jordan would look like without American support of their dictators, however. Maybe thats Hitchin's next article.

CosmicCowboy
03-29-2011, 11:29 AM
Well, if you want to take credit for the Spring, be prepared to take credit for Fall and Winter too.

ChumpDumper
03-29-2011, 11:41 AM
Wow, that was quite a load.

boutons_deux
03-29-2011, 12:00 PM
Wasn't it that human match in Tunisia?

How would other countries take the murderous, dishonest, destructive invasion of Iraq for oil, the unending, disfiguring occupation, and the installation/support of corrupt, fragile Maliki as an inspiration for their own countries?

RandomGuy
03-29-2011, 12:02 PM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Hitchens wishes to rehabilitate the strategic debacle of the Iraq War and his own reputation. Very few will be fooled.

Post hoc indeed.

One may as well have said "it rained in Timbuktoo, making the Arab Spring possible" with about as much validity.

I am certainly not fooled by the rather blatant attempt to grab undue credit.

I would bet Darrin is, though.

DarrinS
03-29-2011, 12:05 PM
Post hoc indeed.

One may as well have said "it rained in Timbuktoo, making the Arab Spring possible" with about as much validity.

I am certainly not fooled by the rather blatant attempt to grab undue credit.

I would bet Darrin is, though.


Hence the question mark on the title of this thread.

ChumpDumper
03-29-2011, 12:08 PM
So what do you actually think, Darrin?

DarrinS
03-29-2011, 12:15 PM
So what do you actually think, Darrin?


Too early to tell, but I thought there were some interesting points in the article.

Winehole23
03-29-2011, 12:16 PM
Like?

ChumpDumper
03-29-2011, 12:17 PM
Way to take a stand.

RandomGuy
03-29-2011, 01:34 PM
Hence the question mark on the title of this thread.

As opposed to the article title from the link:

"If Saddam Hussein were still in power, this year's Arab uprisings could never have happened."


I read and re-read the article. The guy offers virtually no evidence or arguments to support that thesis.

I don't buy the article's premise for a second. The reasons for Tunisia and Egypt, had fuckall to do with anything in Iraq, and the tenuous Libyan link that Hitchens tries to draw is weak sauce at best.

I suppose we could test how much doubt that "?" adds by titling a thread:

"DarrinS, thumbsucker?"

..and asking people about the intent of the thread.

Somehow I doubt that a lone questionmark in the title with no critical commentary in the OP would be interpreted by anybody as genuine skepticism.

If you really had doubts, you should have made them a bit more plain in the OP. Just my opinion.

Winehole23
03-29-2011, 01:43 PM
Darrin prefers taking cover behind the innuendo, propaganda and rhetorical questions he posts here.

As far as this forum goes he's pretty much the coward of the county. No other regular poster I can think of is so allergic to taking an actual position on his very own posts.

TDMVPDPOY
03-30-2011, 12:07 AM
with or without saddam, i dont think he wouldve gotten involve with other diplomacy relations with the arab world...