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Winehole23
04-01-2011, 03:39 AM
Obama's new view of his own war powers (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/31/executive_power/index.html)

By Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/author/glenn_greenwald/index.html)




Back in January, 2006, the Bush Justice Department released a 42-page memo (http://www.justice.gov/opa/whitepaperonnsalegalauthorities.pdf) arguing that the President had the power to ignore Congressional restrictions on domestic eavesdropping, such as those imposed by FISA (the 30-year-old law that made it a felony to do exactly what Bush got caught doing: eavesdropping on the communications of Americans without warrants). That occurred roughly 3 months after I began blogging, and -- to my embarrassment now -- I was actually shocked by the brazen radicalism and extremism expressed in that Memo (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/01/justice-department-tries-again_20.html). It literally argued that Congress had no power to constrain the President in any way when it came to national security matters and protecting the nation.



To advance this defense, Bush lawyers hailed what they called "the President's role as sole organ for the Nation in foreign affairs"; said the President’s war power inherently as "Commander-in-Chief" under Article II "includes all that is necessary and proper for carrying these powers into execution"; favorably cited an argument made by Attorney General Black during the Civil War that statutes restricting the President's actions relating to war "could probably be read as simply providing 'a recommendation' that the President could decline to follow at his discretion"; and, as a result of all that, Congress "was pressing or even exceeding constitutional limits" when it attempted to regulate how the President could eavesdrop on Americans. As a result, the Bush memo argued, the President had the power to ignore the law because FISA, to the extent it purported to restrict the President's war powers, "would be unconstitutional as applied in the context of this Congressionally authorized armed conflict."






Continue reading (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/31/executive_power/index.html)


That claim -- that the President and he alone possesses all powers relating to war under the "Commander-in-Chief" clause of Article II -- became the cornerstone of Bush's "ideology of lawlessness." In a post that same month defining that ideology (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/01/ideology-of-lawlessness.html), I argued that this lawlessness was grounded in the September 25, 2001, War Powers memo by John Yoo (http://www.justice.gov/olc/warpowers925.htm), which infamously concluded as follows:


In both the War Powers Resolution and the Joint Resolution, Congress has recognized the President's authority to use force in circumstances such as those created by the September 11 incidents. Neither statute, however, can place any limits on the President's determinations as to any terrorist threat, the amount of military force to be used in response, or the method, timing, and nature of the response. These decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make.
That was the heart and soul of Bush lawlessness: no "statute can place any limits on the President's determinations" as "these decisions, under our Constitution, are for the President alone to make."


Yesterday, Hillary Clinton told the House of Representatives that "the White House would forge ahead with military action in Libya even if Congress passed a resolution constraining the mission." As TPM put it (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/03/clinton-tells-house-obama-would-ignore-war-resolutions.php): "the administration would ignore any and all attempts by Congress to shackle President Obama's power as commander in chief to make military and wartime decisions," as such attempts would constitute "an unconstitutional encroachment on executive power." As Democratic Rep. Brad Sherman noted, Clinton was not relying on the War Powers Resolution of 1973 (WPR); to the contrary, her position is that the Obama administration has the power to wage war in violation even of the permissive dictates of that Resolution. And, of course, the Obama administration has indeed involved the U.S. in a major, risky war, in a country that has neither attacked us nor threatened to, without even a pretense of Congressional approval or any form of democratic consent. Whether the U.S. should go to war is a decision, they obviously believe, "for the President alone to make."


Initially, I defy anyone to identify any differences between the administration's view of its own authority -- that it has the right to ignore Congressional restrictions on its war powers -- and the crux of Bush radicalism as expressed in the once-controversial memos by John Yoo and the Bush DOJ. There is none. That's why Yoo went to (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050204576218540505216146.html) The Wall Street Journal (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704050204576218540505216146.html) to lavish praise on Obama's new war power theory: because it's Yoo's theory (as I was finishing this post, I saw that Adam Serwer makes a similar point today (http://prospect.org/csnc/blogs/adam_serwer_archive?month=03&year=2011&base_name=shades_of_john_yoo&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)). If anything, one could argue that Yoo's theory of unilateral war-making was more reasonable, as it was at least tied to an actual attack on the U.S.: the 9/11 attacks. Here, the Obama administration is arrogating unto the President the unilateral, unrestrained right to start wars in all circumstances, whether or not the U.S. is attacked.


But what Clinton's stated view really harkens back to is the Iran-contra scandal, when the Reagan administration funded the Nicaraguan contras despite an express Congressional prohibition on doing so, and then took the position -- when exposed -- that Congress has no power to restrict its national security decisions. That position was pioneered in 1987 by then GOP Rep. Dick Cheney and his longtime aide David Addington, who wrote a dissenting report to the finding of the Iran-contra committee that the administration's funding of the contras violated the law. As Charlie Savage detailed in his book, Takeover (http://thinkprogress.org/2007/10/09/savage-cheney/), Cheney insisted that Congress lacked the power to restrict the President's national security power in any way -- i.e., that the prohibition on funding the contras was constitutionally null and void -- and it was this theory of Presidential Omnipotence which laid the groundwork for Bush 43's imperial presidency:


Cheney has been on a thirty-year quest to implement his views of unfettered executive power For example, when it was revealed in 2005 that the Bush administration had been illegally spying on Americans, Cheney responded: "If you want to understand why this program is legal…go back and read my Iran-Contra report." In that report -- authored in 1987 -- Cheney and aide David Addington defended President Reagan by claiming it was "unconstitutional for Congress to pass laws intruding" on the "commander in chief."
Isn't that bolded part -- the self-proclaimed crux of Cheneyite executive power radicalism -- exactly what Hillary Clinton asserted yesterday on behalf of the Obama administration to justify the unauthorized war in Libya? Yes, it is.


The arguments raised to justify the Obama view of his own powers are every bit as frivolous as they were during the Bush years. Many claim that the War Powers Resolution of 1973 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sup_01_50_10_33.html) allows a President to fight wars for 60 days without Congressional approval, but (a) the Obama administration is taking the position that not even the WPR can constrain the President, and (b) 1541(c) of that Resolution explicitly states (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001541----000-.html) that the war-making rights conferred by the statute apply onlyto a declaration of war, specific statutory authority, or "a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces." Plainly, none of those circumstances prevail here. That's why the Obama administration has to argue that it is empowered to ignore the WPR: because nothing in it permits the commencement of a war without Congressional approval in these circumstances; to the contrary, it makes clear that he has no such authority in this case (just read 1541(c) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/50/usc_sec_50_00001541----000-.html) if you have any doubts about that).


Then there's the notion that Presidents in the past have started similar wars without Congressional approval. That's certainly true, but so what? The fact that an act is commonplace isn't a defense or justification. That "defense" was also a common refrain of Bush followers to justify their leader's chronic unconstitutional acts and other forms of law-breaking: Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and FDR interned Japanese-Americans, so why are you upset that Bush is acting outside the law? The pervasiveness of this form of thought underscores the dangers of learned acquiescence: once a government engages long enough or pervasively enough in a certain form of criminality or corruption, the citizenry is trained to accept it and collectively ceases to resist it, even learns to embrace it. What Obama is doing in Libya is either lawful or it isn't on its own terms; whether other Presidents in the past have acted similarly (and they have) is irrelevant.


Then there's the claim that the President, as "Commander-in-Chief" under Article II, is vested by the Constitution with the unilateral power to make decisions about America's national security. Leave aside the fact that this premise was the crux of the Bush/Cheney worldview, one which every Good Democrat and Liberal vehemently condemned until recently. Further leave aside the fact that both Obama and Clinton as Senators and presidential candidates insisted exactly the opposite (http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/18/libya) when they specifically argued that Congress could legally require Bush to obtain Congressional approval before bombing Iran and generally that Presidents have no power to start wars without a vote from Congress. It was true during the Bush years and it is true now that this is an absolute distortion of the "Commander-in-Chief" power of Article II.


To say that the President is "Commander-in-Chief" is not to say that he has the power to start wars. That power is expressly assigned to Congress under Article I, Section 8. The "Commander-in-Chief" power means nothing more than, once a war starts, the President is the top General with the power to decide how it is tactically prosecuted. I made this argument over and over during the Bush years because this warped Article II view was the principal Bush/Cheney argument for justifying almost everything they did, and to rebut it, I invariably cited the dissent written by Antonin Scalia -- and joined by John Paul Stevens -- in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-6696.ZD.html), in which the Surpeme Court ruled that the President, as "Commander-in-Chief," has the power to detain even American citizens as "enemy combatants."



Both Scalia and Stevens insisted that any such attempt was plainly unconstitutional, and emphatically rejected the Bush/Cheney (now-Obama/Clinton) view that Presidents have unconstrained national security power under Article II. They explained just how limited of a power the "Commander-in-Chief" clause vests, and that the expansive Bush/Cheney view would replicate the worst excesses of the British King:


The proposition that the Executive lacks indefinite wartime detention authority over citizens is consistent with the Founders' general mistrust of military power permanently at the Executive’s disposal. . . . No fewer than 10 issues of the Federalist were devoted in whole or part to allaying fears of oppression from the proposed Constitution’s authorization of standing armies in peacetime. Many safeguards in the Constitution reflect these concerns. Congress's authority "[t]o raise and support Armies" was hedged with the proviso that "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years." U.S. Const., Art. 1, §8, cl. 12. Except for the actual command of military forces, all authorization for their maintenance and all explicit authorization for their use is placed in the control of Congress under Article I, rather than the President under Article II. As Hamilton explained, the President's military authority would be "much inferior" to that of the British King:

"[The Commander-in-Chief power] would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy: while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which, by the constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." The Federalist No. 69, p. 357.

A view of the Constitution that gives the Executive authority to use military force rather than the force of law against citizens on American soil flies in the face of the mistrust that engendered these provisions.
That bolded section -- quoting Alexander Hamilton, the founder most enthusiastic of executive power -- is dispositive. The British King could start wars on his own; the American President cannot, as that power is reserved exclusively for Congress. The Bush/Cheney "Commander-in-Chief" view suffered a death blow two years later, in 2006, when the Supreme Court, in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/06/significance-of-hamdan-v-rumsfeld.html), rejected the claim that the Commander-in-Chief has the unconstrained power to decide how prisoners will be detained during wartime. The Court emphasized "the powers granted jointly to the President and Congress in time of war," and -- citing Youngstown, which rejected Harry Truman's efforts to seize steel mills to support the Koren War in the absence of Congressional authorization -- explicitly held that the President "may not disregard limitations that Congress has, in proper exercise of its own war powers, placed on his powers." The notion that Presidents have unconstrained war powers is an obsolete, discredited relic of the Bush years, no matter how much Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton attempt to revitalize it in pursuit of their own Freedom-Spreading War.


One's views on the desirability of the Libya war have absolutely nothing to do with whether Obama has acted legally and/or whether his theories of presidential power are valid. This, too, should have been decisively settled during the Bush years, when Bush followers invariably argued (http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/01/bad-law-defense.html) that Bush was justified in eavesdropping without warrants or torturing because of the good outcomes it produced (Keeping Us Safe) -- as though Presidents have the power to violate laws or transgress Constitutional limits provided they can prove that doing so produces good results. The one and only safeguard against tyranny is that political leaders are subjected to the constraints of the Constitution and law (we're a nation of laws or a nation of men, said Adams: you must choose). To argue that you're supportive of or indifferent to lawless acts because of the good results they produce is simply another way of yearning for a benevolent tyrant (and is another way of replicating the mindset of the Bush follower).


Matt Yglesias is absolutely right when he points out (http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2011/03/good-morning-libya/) that, in reality, Congress is happy to have the President usurp its powers in these cases because it alleviates them of responsibility to act. But the same was true of the Democratic Congress under Bush, and that didn't justify anything Bush did; it just meant that Congress shared the blame for acquiescing to it. It may be common, and it may produce good outcomes, and it may be a longstanding problem, but there's no question that Obama's commencement of this war without Congressional approval, and especially Hillary Clinton's announcement that Congress has no power to restrict the President in any way, are acts of pure imperial lawlessness. Daniel Larison put it best (http://www.amconmag.com/larison/2011/03/31/put-not-your-trust-in-princes/):


This is an outrageous statement, but it’s entirely consistent with what the administration has been illegally doing for the last 12 days. They seem to believe quite seriously that, as long as they don’t call it a war, it doesn’t fall under any laws regulating war powers or the Constitution. The sliver of good news in all of this is that Obama and his officials are showing such contempt for American law and institutions that they are exposing themselves to a serious political backlash. War supporters won’t be able to hide behind the conceit that the war is legal. As far as U.S. law is concerned, it has never been legal, and only people making the most maximalist claims of inherent executive power can believe otherwise. Anyone who continues to support the war from this point on will be revealed as being either a blind Obama loyalist, an ideological liberal interventionist, or a devotee of the cult of the Presidency.
Most Democrats, liberals, and even traditional conservatives and libertarians purported to find such lawlessness outrageous and dangerous during the Bush years. It isn't any less so now.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/03/31/executive_power/index.html

LnGrrrR
04-01-2011, 09:53 AM
Good catch WH23. It also completely blows apart a ridiculous post by WC in another thread a few back, so this is a two'fer.

Again, Obama shows that his earlier claims of affection for civil liberties and Constitutional processes are just that: claims only.

2012 will be interesting for many libertarians and civil liberty fans.

ManuBalboa
04-01-2011, 10:46 AM
It won't be interesting. It is never interesting. Two shitty possible candidates and a thrown away vote on somebody without a chance.

Viva Las Espuelas
04-01-2011, 10:57 AM
It will be a humdinger. Likely more of the same. I wish we had Hillary's reset button right now :depressed

Wild Cobra
04-01-2011, 11:20 AM
Good catch WH23. It also completely blows apart a ridiculous post by WC in another thread a few back, so this is a two'fer.

Please point out the part that "blows away" my contention. I must have missed it.

vy65
04-01-2011, 11:59 AM
One argument for the unconstitutionality of the War Powers Resolution by Philip Bobbitt[4] argues "The power to make war is not an enumerated power" and the notion that to "declare" war is to "commence" war is a "contemporary textual preconception". Bobbitt contends that the Framers of the Constitution believed that statutory authorization was the route by which the United States would be committed to war, and that 'declaration' was meant for only total wars, as shown by the history of the Quasi-War with France (1798–1800). In general, constitutional powers are not so much separated as "linked and sequenced"; Congress's control over the armed forces is "structured" by appropriation, while the President commands; thus the act of declaring war should not be fetishized. Bobbitt also argues that "A democracy cannot ... tolerate secret policies" because they undermine the legitimacy of governmental action.

vy65
04-01-2011, 12:02 PM
I'd like to know what hostilities constitute war vs. some other type of military action.

LnGrrrR
04-01-2011, 01:17 PM
I'm not surprised you can't comprehend it WC, but here it is spelled out:


Both Scalia and Stevens insisted that any such attempt was plainly unconstitutional, and emphatically rejected the Bush/Cheney (now-Obama/Clinton) view that Presidents have unconstrained national security power under Article II. They explained just how limited of a power the "Commander-in-Chief" clause vests, and that the expansive Bush/Cheney view would replicate the worst excesses of the British King:
The proposition that the Executive lacks indefinite wartime detention authority over citizens is consistent with the Founders' general mistrust of military power permanently at the Executive’s disposal. . . . No fewer than 10 issues of the Federalist were devoted in whole or part to allaying fears of oppression from the proposed Constitution’s authorization of standing armies in peacetime. Many safeguards in the Constitution reflect these concerns. Congress's authority "[t]o raise and support Armies" was hedged with the proviso that "no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years." U.S. Const., Art. 1, §8, cl. 12. Except for the actual command of military forces, all authorization for their maintenance and all explicit authorization for their use is placed in the control of Congress under Article I, rather than the President under Article II. As Hamilton explained, the President's military authority would be "much inferior" to that of the British King:

"[The Commander-in-Chief power] would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy: while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which, by the constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." The Federalist No. 69, p. 357.

A view of the Constitution that gives the Executive authority to use military force rather than the force of law against citizens on American soil flies in the face of the mistrust that engendered these provisions.

Marcus Bryant
04-01-2011, 02:10 PM
Separation of powers matters, even if it was mentioned in that old, irrelevant Constitution.

Marcus Bryant
04-01-2011, 02:11 PM
I'm not surprised you can't comprehend it WC, but here it is spelled out:

That commie Scalia.

As an aside, it might blow Cobra Commander's mind that Rehnquist shit all over the idea of corporate personhood.

Winehole23
04-01-2011, 02:21 PM
One argument for the unconstitutionality of the War Powers Resolution by Philip Bobbitt[4] argues "The power to make war is not an enumerated power" and the notion that to "declare" war is to "commence" war is a "contemporary textual preconception". Bobbitt contends that the Framers of the Constitution believed that statutory authorization was the route by which the United States would be committed to war, and that 'declaration' was meant for only total wars, as shown by the history of the Quasi-War with France (1798–1800). In general, constitutional powers are not so much separated as "linked and sequenced"; Congress's control over the armed forces is "structured" by appropriation, while the President commands; thus the act of declaring war should not be fetishized. Bobbitt also argues that "A democracy cannot ... tolerate secret policies" because they undermine the legitimacy of governmental action.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

vy65
04-01-2011, 02:30 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Powers_Resolution

Very good. That was taken from wikipedia.

Winehole23
04-01-2011, 02:33 PM
Alluded to upstream, bottom of the page:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=435&invol=765

Winehole23
04-01-2011, 02:34 PM
Very good. That was taken from wikipedia.You needn't credit your source. That's only a courtesy.

vy65
04-01-2011, 02:36 PM
You needn't credit your source. That's only a courtesy.

The source is a law review article by Phillip Bobbit, not wikipedia.

Winehole23
04-01-2011, 02:38 PM
(effin jerk)

Winehole23
04-01-2011, 02:39 PM
The source is a law review article by Phillip Bobbit, not wikipedia.Whatever. It wasn't my hobby horse.

Wild Cobra
04-01-2011, 09:05 PM
I'm not surprised you can't comprehend it WC, but here it is spelled out:
That does not deny not contention.

LnGrrrR
04-01-2011, 10:29 PM
That does not deny not contention.

Huh?

Did you or did you not say that the President had the right to declare war, and the Founders recognized that right?

Wild Cobra
04-02-2011, 12:18 AM
Huh?

Did you or did you not say that the President had the right to declare war, and the Founders recognized that right?
Yes, and no. The founders never denied that right, so it is left to the common law as known at the time. At the time, the commander in chief had that authority.

Capt Bringdown
04-02-2011, 03:24 AM
http://www.politicalbyline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/bush-obama-s.jpg

Winehole23
04-02-2011, 11:33 AM
The founders never denied that right, so it is left to the common law as known at the time. The founders gave that power to Congress. As you may recall, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, meaning it trumps the common law.

Wild Cobra
04-02-2011, 12:08 PM
The founders gave that power to Congress. As you may recall, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land, meaning it trumps the common law.
Again, they gave that power to congress without taking it away from traditional CiC responsibilities.

It is not an exclusive deal. Why can't you wrap your head around that?

Winehole23
04-02-2011, 12:18 PM
No need to. An express constitutional grant of power to one branch of government trumps all.

LnGrrrR
04-02-2011, 01:50 PM
Again, they gave that power to congress without taking it away from traditional CiC responsibilities.

It is not an exclusive deal. Why can't you wrap your head around that?

Did you not read the Supreme Courts view of the executive declaring war up there? Do you disagree with SCOTUS?

LnGrrrR
04-02-2011, 01:54 PM
WC, can you find even one example of a Founding Father saying that the President should have this power? How about a court precedent? Legal opinion?

Wild Cobra
04-02-2011, 08:43 PM
Did you not read the Supreme Courts view of the executive declaring war up there? Do you disagree with SCOTUS?
If there was a part for declaring war, I missed it. the parts I say had to do with judicial.

Wild Cobra
04-02-2011, 08:44 PM
WC, can you find even one example of a Founding Father saying that the President should have this power? How about a court precedent? Legal opinion?

I don't believe they did.

Again, this was an accepted part of the CiC role during the period. Therefore, since the president is CiC, he naturally gets that role, unless specifically taken away by constitution.

Marcus Bryant
04-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Which it was you fucking moron.

LnGrrrR
04-02-2011, 11:43 PM
I don't believe they did.

Again, this was an accepted part of the CiC role during the period. Therefore, since the president is CiC, he naturally gets that role, unless specifically taken away by constitution.

Except America was creating a new system of government, so what other govts did at the time doesn't matter. What matters is what they wrote down.

Can you provide any evidence for your interpretation? Anything?

LnGrrrR
04-02-2011, 11:43 PM
If there was a part for declaring war, I missed it. the parts I say had to do with judicial.

Are you sure you read them? It's in black and white.

Wild Cobra
04-03-2011, 12:31 AM
Are you sure you read them? It's in black and white.

Show me the quote please.

LnGrrrR
04-03-2011, 12:51 AM
"[The Commander-in-Chief power] would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy: while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which, by the constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." The Federalist No. 69, p. 357.

IOW, they recognized that in those days the king/CiC had the authority to start wars, and didn't grant our President that power specifically in order to limit his power.

Again, can you find any Founding Father who stated that the President would have the right to declare war? Or is this just an assumption?

There are pages upon pages of documents to support my view.

LnGrrrR
04-03-2011, 12:54 AM
Or are you going to also argue that the President has the right to fund armies too, since that's what kings did in those days?

Wild Cobra
04-03-2011, 12:26 PM
Not all ideas talked about in the federalist papers were adopted. That doesn't sway my viewpoint.

LnGrrrR
04-03-2011, 10:32 PM
Not all ideas talked about in the federalist papers were adopted. That doesn't sway my viewpoint.

Care to provide any proof for your side? Legal precedent? Anything?

Can you find even one quote from someone who signed the Constitution that supported such an idea?

ElNono
04-03-2011, 10:35 PM
:lmao

WC the Constitution interpreter never fails to disappoint...

Wild Cobra
04-03-2011, 10:55 PM
Care to provide any proof for your side? Legal precedent? Anything?

Can you find even one quote from someone who signed the Constitution that supported such an idea?
I told you my angle. Sorry that you cannot disprove my point either.

ElNono
04-03-2011, 11:13 PM
I told you my angle. Sorry that you cannot disprove my point either.

He already did. You're just too prideful/retarded/chickenshit to accept you were wrong.

Wild Cobra
04-03-2011, 11:16 PM
He already did. You're just too prideful/retarded/chickenshit to accept you were wrong.
No, that did not address my point satisfactorily.

ElNono
04-03-2011, 11:31 PM
No, that did not address my point satisfactorily.

At this point you're arguing with the SCOTUS...
Do you realize how retarded that is?

Wild Cobra
04-03-2011, 11:38 PM
At this point you're arguing with the SCOTUS...
Do you realize how retarded that is?
What I read of the SC decision was other CiC functions that are addressed constitutionally. It had nothing to do with the right to declare war. If I am wrong, that is what I asked to see earlier. What was quoted was a compilation of authors. I don't know what is quoted from the SC decision and what isn't. Some of it obviously is not in the SC decision.

ElNono
04-04-2011, 12:22 AM
What I read of the SC decision was other CiC functions that are addressed constitutionally. It had nothing to do with the right to declare war. If I am wrong, that is what I asked to see earlier. What was quoted was a compilation of authors. I don't know what is quoted from the SC decision and what isn't. Some of it obviously is not in the SC decision.

Do you realize his post include quotes of SCOTUS opinions on the subject at hand, right?

Here's the entire opinion: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/hamdi.html

vy65
04-04-2011, 10:13 AM
If I understand him right, WC's argument seems to be that the President has the constitutional power to declare war. That's retarded. Nothing in Article II gives him said power.

That being said, I think there is a smart way of articulating his argument. The way Article I and Article II are introduced are very different. Article I starts with "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested . . ." while Article II begins with a reference to "the Executive Power" which is vested in the president. Article II doesn't have the limiting terms of "all legislative powers herein granted." Instead, the Executive Power is vested in the president - and one could easily interpret Article II to suggest that there are executive powers beyond those granted by Article II.

An expanisve view of the Executives CiC powers also aligns with the history and design of the constitution. The Articles of Confederation were problematic because they gave the states to much power, to the detriment of the federal government. The Constitution was designed to remedy that problem by empowering the federal government over the states (e.g., supremacy clause). Part and parcel of that design was the creation of a national army and navy (which didn't exist under the Articles of Confederation) and the installation of the president as the CiC. I don't think you can assert 1) this history of the constitution and 2) that the constitution limits the President's war-making powers.

That said, the declaration power is contained in Article I - Article II makes no reference to it. However, I also don't think much emphasis should be placed on this fact. The quoted section of Hamdi also notes that there was no standing army in the late 18th century. IOW, we should understand the declaration power in light of congress's power to raise an army via appropriations. 200 years later, we obviously live with a standing army - therefore, I think it wise to de-emphasize the necessity or legal strength of the declaration power. In other words, I think it not unconstitutional for the President to commit troops, without a congressional declaration, to foreign military hostilities.

An other argument could be made as follows: if Article I supposes full congressional (meaning House + Senate) assent to military operations, the President would be unable to quickly mobilize troops to military operations. Neither Article I or II makes reference to the need (or lack thereof) of congressional authorization in the event the US is attacked. In other words, if you think that the Constitution requires the President to obtain congressional authorization every time the military is mobilized - what happens when the US is attacked, and congress does not approve military action for hours or even days? Is the President supposed to sit back and watch?

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 11:28 AM
I told you my angle. Sorry that you cannot disprove my point either.

I've disproved it multiple times, by pointing out US precedent and words from the very people who wrote the Constitution on why they specifically didn't allow the President this power.

You just don't want to accept that. That's why you won't provide proof, because there's none to be found.

Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Vy, thats what the War Powers Act of 73 is there for.

That said, if America was attacked, do you really think the majority of citizens wouldn't want to go to war?

And let's say that we were attacked, and for some reason the majority didnt want to go to war. Is it still moral for the President to commit resources to a war that most Americans don't want?

TeyshaBlue
04-04-2011, 11:33 AM
Like boutonski, WC is pathologically unable to be incorrect.

vy65
04-04-2011, 11:37 AM
Vy, thats what the War Powers Act of 73 is there for.

That said, if America was attacked, do you really think the majority of citizens wouldn't want to go to war?

And let's say that we were attacked, and for some reason the majority didnt want to go to war. Is it still moral for the President to commit resources to a war that most Americans don't want?

I'm not really a big fan of the WPA for starters and I was limiting my point to what's in the Constitution - not what congress thinks the constitution means.

As for your addendum to my hypothetical, I think it kind of misses the point. I was focusing on congressional authorization for military action while you're focusing on public support for military action. Those are two different things - and get at two different points.

That said, I think the answer to your hypothetical would revolve largely around whether the President thinks he is obligated, per his oath to uphold the Constitution, to commit military forces despite public disproval.

What I mean is that the question of whether the President should commit military forces is a legal question revolving around his interpretation of the oath of office. I don't see what morals have to do with what I think is a legal question.

vy65
04-04-2011, 11:43 AM
My point was just that we shouldn't really take the declaration of war clause too literally because it can produce ridiculous results (like having to wait for congressional authorization before starting to mobilize defenses) and is outdated.

Long story short: I don't think using the declaration of war clause is a legally effective way to say that our Libyan involvement is illegal or unconstituonal.

Winehole23
04-04-2011, 12:23 PM
My point was just that we shouldn't really take the declaration of war clause too literally because it can produce ridiculous results (like having to wait for congressional authorization before starting to mobilize defenses) and is outdated. The article more focused on Yoo and Addington's warped gloss of Article II and the hypermodern sentiment that it is inappropriate for the Congress to limit the president, and that laws do not control his war making powers in general -- roughly, the president may make war at his sole discretion.

So maybe the constitution is inconvenient and a bit outdated, but public officials still take an oath to uphold it, and courts still occasionally defer to it. If the president feels it don't apply to him, so much the worse for us.

Long story short: I don't think using the declaration of war clause is a legally effective way to say that our Libyan involvement is illegal or unconstituonal.Who said it was? My own cite was related to WC's weird hypothesis about the president's "common law" attributes. Greenwald emphasizes the attitude of lawlessness and contempt for Congressional limitation in the executive (a brazenness very much in accord with your blase' dismissal of the plain meaning of the US constitution, and also with the near universal tendency to prefer expedience above morality, the laws, etc,.) Who did you conceive yourself to be responding to, vy65?

vy65
04-04-2011, 12:39 PM
The article more focused on Yoo and Addington's warped gloss of Article II and the hypermodern sentiment that it is inappropriate for the Congress to limit the president, and that laws do not control his war making powers in general -- roughly, the president may make war at his sole discretion.

So maybe the constitution is inconvenient and a bit outdated, but public officials still take an oath to uphold it, and courts still occasionally defer to it. If the president feels it don't apply to him, so much the worse for us.

Under the constitution, I don't think you can argue that, because Congress has the "declaration of war power," the President is legally circumscribed to commit military forces absent Congressional authorization. This is responsive to a key point made by Greenwald (see below). This isn't an argument in defense of unfettered Executive power.


Who said it was? My own cite was related to WC's weird hypothesis about the president's "common law" attributes. Greenwald emphasizes the attitude of lawlessness and contempt for Congressional limitation in the executive (a brazenness very much in accord with your blase' dismissal of the plain meaning of the US constitution, and also with the near universal tendency to prefer expedience above morality, the laws, etc,.) Who did you conceive yourself to be responding to, vy65?

Several critics of Obama have called his actions illegal, for starters. And also Greenwald's assertions such as the following:


Then there's the claim that the President, as "Commander-in-Chief" under Article II, is vested by the Constitution with the unilateral power to make decisions about America's national security. Leave aside the fact that this premise was the crux of the Bush/Cheney worldview, one which every Good Democrat and Liberal vehemently condemned until recently. Further leave aside the fact that both Obama and Clinton as Senators and presidential candidates insisted exactly the opposite when they specifically argued that Congress could legally require Bush to obtain Congressional approval before bombing Iran and generally that Presidents have no power to start wars without a vote from Congress. It was true during the Bush years and it is true now that this is an absolute distortion of the "Commander-in-Chief" power of Article II.


To say that the President is "Commander-in-Chief" is not to say that he has the power to start wars. That power is expressly assigned to Congress under Article I, Section 8. The "Commander-in-Chief" power means nothing more than, once a war starts, the President is the top General with the power to decide how it is tactically prosecuted. I made this argument over and over during the Bush years because this warped Article II view was the principal Bush/Cheney argument for justifying almost everything they did, and to rebut it, I invariably cited the dissent written by Antonin Scalia -- and joined by John Paul Stevens -- in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld, in which the Surpeme Court ruled that the President, as "Commander-in-Chief," has the power to detain even American citizens as "enemy combatants."

Please show my "blase dismissal" of the Constitution's. You can parrot what some idiot hack writes all you want - but I've yet to see a logical, much less articulated, thought from you on the matter.

Winehole23
04-04-2011, 12:59 PM
Please show my "blase dismissal" of the Constitution's.
My point was just that we shouldn't really take the declaration of war clause too literally because it can produce ridiculous results (like having to wait for congressional authorization before starting to mobilize defenses) and is outdated.

You can parrot what some idiot hack writes all you want - but I've yet to see a logical, much less articulated, thought from you on the matter.Which idiot hack, please? What did I parrot?

Winehole23
04-04-2011, 01:02 PM
(I thought you were complaining that I didn't have a thought.)

vy65
04-04-2011, 02:05 PM
If I understand him right, WC's argument seems to be that the President has the constitutional power to declare war. That's retarded. Nothing in Article II gives him said power.

That being said, I think there is a smart way of articulating his argument. The way Article I and Article II are introduced are very different. Article I starts with "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested . . ." while Article II begins with a reference to "the Executive Power" which is vested in the president. Article II doesn't have the limiting terms of "all legislative powers herein granted." Instead, the Executive Power is vested in the president - and one could easily interpret Article II to suggest that there are executive powers beyond those granted by Article II.

An expanisve view of the Executives CiC powers also aligns with the history and design of the constitution. The Articles of Confederation were problematic because they gave the states to much power, to the detriment of the federal government. The Constitution was designed to remedy that problem by empowering the federal government over the states (e.g., supremacy clause). Part and parcel of that design was the creation of a national army and navy (which didn't exist under the Articles of Confederation) and the installation of the president as the CiC. I don't think you can assert 1) this history of the constitution and 2) that the constitution limits the President's war-making powers.

That said, the declaration power is contained in Article I - Article II makes no reference to it. However, I also don't think much emphasis should be placed on this fact. The quoted section of Hamdi also notes that there was no standing army in the late 18th century. IOW, we should understand the declaration power in light of congress's power to raise an army via appropriations. 200 years later, we obviously live with a standing army - therefore, I think it wise to de-emphasize the necessity or legal strength of the declaration power. In other words, I think it not unconstitutional for the President to commit troops, without a congressional declaration, to foreign military hostilities.

An other argument could be made as follows: if Article I supposes full congressional (meaning House + Senate) assent to military operations, the President would be unable to quickly mobilize troops to military operations. Neither Article I or II makes reference to the need (or lack thereof) of congressional authorization in the event the US is attacked. In other words, if you think that the Constitution requires the President to obtain congressional authorization every time the military is mobilized - what happens when the US is attacked, and congress does not approve military action for hours or even days? Is the President supposed to sit back and watch?

Which part is blase?

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 02:10 PM
What I mean is that the question of whether the President should commit military forces is a legal question revolving around his interpretation of the oath of office. I don't see what morals have to do with what I think is a legal question.

The problem is that you're conflating two different issues: commanding the military does not mean starting a war.

For instance, look at WWII for example. The Japanese attacked us, and the President able commanded the military forces to defend us. That doesn't mean he had the right to go to war without Congress though. He asked for an approval for war from Congress and got it.

The Constitution IS rather black and white: the President doesn't have the right to commit the nation to war without Congressional approval. This key check is fundamental to preventing tyranny, imperialism, and lots of other things that we didn't approve of in the British government.

(That said, there are things, such as the Geneva Conventions Treaty that we talked about, that might modify the issues. But you asked for the wording in the Constitution alone.)

There's a whole bunch of 'meta' arguments we could have (ie. at what step does something become "war") but those are different arguments.

Winehole23
04-04-2011, 02:12 PM
(burp)

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 02:12 PM
Which part is blase?

I don't know about "blase" but this part is incorrect:



Neither Article I or II makes reference to the need (or lack thereof) of congressional authorization in the event the US is attacked. In other words, if you think that the Constitution requires the President to obtain congressional authorization every time the military is mobilized - what happens when the US is attacked, and congress does not approve military action for hours or even days? Is the President supposed to sit back and watch?



As noted above, war =/= military action, especially defending, as evidenced by WWII.

vy65
04-04-2011, 02:24 PM
The problem is that you're conflating two different issues: commanding the military does not mean starting a war.

For instance, look at WWII for example. The Japanese attacked us, and the President able commanded the military forces to defend us. That doesn't mean he had the right to go to war without Congress though. He asked for an approval for war from Congress and got it.

The Constitution IS rather black and white: the President doesn't have the right to commit the nation to war without Congressional approval. This key check is fundamental to preventing tyranny, imperialism, and lots of other things that we didn't approve of in the British government.

(That said, there are things, such as the Geneva Conventions Treaty that we talked about, that might modify the issues. But you asked for the wording in the Constitution alone.)

There's a whole bunch of 'meta' arguments we could have (ie. at what step does something become "war") but those are different arguments.

I think semantics are legally relevant - and this goes to what you're getting towards the end of your post. And this is because the Constitution isn't really helpful in this area. Article I gives Congress the power to declare war - and Article II makes the President the CiC. That's it. The Constitution doesn't require a declaration of war everytime the military is deployed. It doesn't require Congressional authorization everytime the military is mobilized. When hostilities become war (whatever that means), only Congress has the power to make such a declaration and only the President has the power to command the troops. Article I does not say Congressional authorization is required prior to troop mobilization - and that's probably by design because a strong federal government that can quickly mobilize was part of the framers' intent.

You're absolutely right that war =|= military action, by necessity. But that doesn't help your position out because a Congressional declaration is only needed when hostilities are "war," that leaves room for the President to mobilize troops without Congressional authorization.

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 02:31 PM
think semantics are legally relevant - and this goes to what you're getting towards the end of your post. And this is because the Constitution isn't really helpful in this area. Article I gives Congress the power to declare war - and Article II makes the President the CiC. That's it. The Constitution doesn't require a declaration of war everytime the military is deployed. It doesn't require Congressional authorization everytime the military is mobilized. When hostilities become war (whatever that means), only Congress has the power to make such a declaration and only the President has the power to command the troops. Article I does not say Congressional authorization is required prior to troop mobilization - and that's probably by design because a strong federal government that can quickly mobilize was part of the framers' intent.

Yes, it does get unclear very quickly. Tis is most likely due to the fact that the founders couldn't have guess at how quickly transportation/weaponry would evolve.

I wouldn't quite say a "strong federal government" was a key output of the Founding Father's intentions. They just wanted it to be strong enough to actually be useful; the federal government under the Articles was so weak as to be near laughable.


You're absolutely right that war =|= military action, by necessity. But that doesn't help your position out because a Congressional declaration is only needed when hostilities are "war," that leaves room for the President to mobilize troops without Congressional authorization.

Which is what this whole "Libya" thing is all about.

To me, "war" is not just a military action, but a mindset. War means the whole country (or at least, a solid majority) is in favor of actively attacking an enemy. It's a "draw a line in the sand" declaration, which we should force our leadership to do more often. By not forcing their hand, by not forcing them to declare war, we let them get away with more than they should. Hence all the international interventionism the past few decades.

Obviously, your thinking above leads to a slippery slope: if the President can mobilize troops without Congressional authorization, what are the limits? When is "too long" and how many is "too much"?

vy65
04-04-2011, 02:39 PM
Which is what this whole "Libya" thing is all about.

To me, "war" is not just a military action, but a mindset. War means the whole country (or at least, a solid majority) is in favor of actively attacking an enemy. It's a "draw a line in the sand" declaration, which we should force our leadership to do more often. By not forcing their hand, by not forcing them to declare war, we let them get away with more than they should. Hence all the international interventionism the past few decades.

Obviously, your thinking above leads to a slippery slope: if the President can mobilize troops without Congressional authorization, what are the limits? When is "too long" and how many is "too much"?

This is way out of my expertise - I'd have to read up on some military law before I was comfortable saying what a legally viable definition of war is.

As for the slippery slope point - that's what the text says - and I think that's a good thing. For me, one key feature of the Constitution was to empower the federal government to take decisive action (as opposed to obtaining a consensus of the states). And I don't think it's that big of a deal either.

As for the limits, I can think of a couple. The President can't commit military forces to a war without congressional authorization. Another limit would be that if Congress thinks the President is abusing his CiC power, they can de-fund parts of the military. There are some non-legal limits too - like public opinion and international relations - albeit these are probably far less effective.

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 03:47 PM
This is way out of my expertise - I'd have to read up on some military law before I was comfortable saying what a legally viable definition of war is.

I don't think anyone really "knows". There's lots of opinion out there, legal and otherwise, put I know of no definite step between not-war and war.


As for the limits, I can think of a couple. The President can't commit military forces to a war without congressional authorization.

Which does us no good if we can't truly define what is and isn't a war, right? :)


Another limit would be that if Congress thinks the President is abusing his CiC power, they can de-fund parts of the military.

They can defund us, but that's a very explosive issue for legislators to use.

Turns out, it might actually happen if the new budget proposal doesn't get signed by... April 8th I believe it is. The military will be effectively working without pay. How that will play out, I have no idea.


There are some non-legal limits too - like public opinion and international relations - albeit these are probably far less effective.

Agreed.

vy65
04-04-2011, 03:54 PM
Which does us no good if we can't truly define what is and isn't a war, right? :)

There's some case law on the matter which helps resolve this issue - like the Youngstown case cited in the Article. While fuzzy, I think there is a definition - but that's not what we were discussing initially.



They can defund us, but that's a very explosive issue for legislators to use.

Turns out, it might actually happen if the new budget proposal doesn't get signed by... April 8th I believe it is. The military will be effectively working without pay. How that will play out, I have no idea.

It'd probably be as explosive an issue as the underlying decision to commit troops which would have caused Congress to defund in the first place.

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 04:38 PM
There's some case law on the matter which helps resolve this issue - like the Youngstown case cited in the Article. While fuzzy, I think there is a definition - but that's not what we were discussing initially.

Let me know what you think when you've read some more. Curious to see what you find.


It'd probably be as explosive an issue as the underlying decision to commit troops which would have caused Congress to defund in the first place.

Probably more so. It's one thing to commit troops, it's another thing to stop paying them. :)

Here's an article about it:

http://fcw.com/articles/2011/03/14/dod-guidance-shutdown-military.aspx



In that plan, reported Richard Walker in Federal Computer Week (http://fcw.com/articles/2008/06/17/dod-contingency-plan-includes-furloughs.aspx), officials also anticipated requiring military personnel to continue to serve without pay while furloughing non-essential civilian personnel.


Funding a new war isn't quite the same as cutting funding from people working... I've got money reserved, but a lot of younger soldiers don't, and live paycheck to paycheck. They're the ones who will be hurt.

LnGrrrR
04-04-2011, 04:40 PM
Here's the latest news:

http://warnerrobinspatriot.com/bookmark/12623742-Republicans-trying-to-protect-military-pay-as-shutdown-approaches-



U.S. House Republicans are sponsoring stop-gap legislation that would prevent any disruption in military pay during a government shutdown. However, the bill apparently would not apply to civilian workers.

Wild Cobra
04-04-2011, 11:01 PM
Do you realize his post include quotes of SCOTUS opinions on the subject at hand, right?

Here's the entire opinion: http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/hamdi.html
Yes, i know that. I also stated it contained other material. Wish you would have also quoted the relevant paragraph so I don't have to read the whole thing.

I might miss what you think is relevant.

---- edit add---

Read it. It still does not counter the points I make.

1. This is pertaining to use of military against civilians, that the president cannot.

2. It says the "explicit" use to declare war is in congress' hands. It still does not say the president cannot declare war.

Wild Cobra
04-04-2011, 11:14 PM
I've disproved it multiple times, by pointing out US precedent and words from the very people who wrote the Constitution on why they specifically didn't allow the President this power.

You just don't want to accept that. That's why you won't provide proof, because there's none to be found.

Why can't you just admit you're wrong?
You haven't disproved squat. vy65 seems to understand the separations and the fact that the executive power isn't addresses on this issue as a limiting one.

ElNono
04-04-2011, 11:35 PM
You haven't disproved squat. vy65 seems to understand the separations and the fact that the executive power isn't addresses on this issue as a limiting one.


If I understand him right, WC's argument seems to be that the President has the constitutional power to declare war. That's retarded. Nothing in Article II gives him said power.

ElNono
04-04-2011, 11:36 PM
1. This is pertaining to use of military against civilians, that the president cannot.

No.


2. It says the "explicit" use to declare war is in congress' hands. It still does not say the president cannot declare war.

Do you know understand what explicit means?

explicit:
fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal

Wild Cobra
04-04-2011, 11:46 PM
No.



Do you know understand what explicit means?

explicit:
fully and clearly expressed or demonstrated; leaving nothing merely implied; unequivocal
And it is in article I. Not article II.

ElNono
04-05-2011, 12:03 AM
And it is in article I. Not article II.

Correct.

The closest argument that can be made is the scenario vy brought up, which would be the case of an attack or invasion. But in that case, it's not the US declaring war, but the enemy declaring war on the US. At that point, mobilizing troops is an obvious reaction. As LnGrrr pointed out, mobilizing troops is not the same as actually declaring a war.
Congress can, post-facto, and in case it can convene, declare war on the aggressor (given the duress, would be a formality).

I think that, unfortunately, 9/11 reflected a weakness addressing what happens when the enemy is not necessarily readily identifiable. And I think some really authoritarian people tried to wedge in some really bullshit interpretations that really have no ties to the original intent of the Constitution, which was to grant Congress with the master decision to engage in war. I think the SCOTUS has been pretty clear cut about those arguments being bullshit.

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 12:52 AM
Correct.

The closest argument that can be made is the scenario vy brought up, which would be the case of an attack or invasion. But in that case, it's not the US declaring war, but the enemy declaring war on the US. At that point, mobilizing troops is an obvious reaction. As LnGrrr pointed out, mobilizing troops is not the same as actually declaring a war.
Congress can, post-facto, and in case it can convene, declare war on the aggressor (given the duress, would be a formality).

I think that, unfortunately, 9/11 reflected a weakness addressing what happens when the enemy is not necessarily readily identifiable. And I think some really authoritarian people tried to wedge in some really bullshit interpretations that really have no ties to the original intent of the Constitution, which was to grant Congress with the master decision to engage in war. I think the SCOTUS has been pretty clear cut about those arguments being bullshit.
Not at all. they didn't address the presidents power to declare war at all. It is a native function of the Commander in Chief's role.

Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.

Till then...

Bye.

ElNono
04-05-2011, 06:48 AM
Not at all. they didn't address the presidents power to declare war at all. It is a native function of the Commander in Chief's role.

Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.

Till then...

Bye.

Run away lola...

Your belief is irrelevant. I'll take the interpretation of the Constitution by actual judges over a parts-changer any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 06:50 AM
Here's the latest news:

http://warnerrobinspatriot.com/bookmark/12623742-Republicans-trying-to-protect-military-pay-as-shutdown-approaches-



If it doesn't apply to civilians supporting the military, it does little good now, doesn't it. How will Obama keep his wars going?

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 06:51 AM
Run away lola...

Your belief is irrelevant. I'll take the interpretation of the Constitution by actual judges over a parts-changer any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.

ElNono
04-05-2011, 07:02 AM
Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.

You are the one making the claim, the onus is on you to find the supporting legalese backing it up.

Again, what you 'believe' is irrelevant if you can't back it up.
It wouldn't be the first time that your 'beliefs' are based on ignorance (black surgeons anyone?)

I don't care about 'winning'. I care about perusing through informed opinions. You came to support a fairly novel doctrine, which has been shot down by legal experts. I don't want your opinion, I want other legal experts supporting your claim. So far you've presented none.

LnGrrrR
04-05-2011, 11:41 AM
If it doesn't apply to civilians supporting the military, it does little good now, doesn't it. How will Obama keep his wars going?

Got me.

LnGrrrR
04-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.

The whole point of the Constitution was to limit the powers of each branch. So it doesn't matter if it was an "assumed" function elsewhere for the CiC/king; the founders thought it gave the executive too much power, so they deliberately placed it in the hands of the people to go to war.

It's spelled out in numerous areas. For the umpteenth time, canyou find anyone willing to back your assertion up?

TeyshaBlue
04-05-2011, 11:44 AM
(black surgeons anyone?)


Sure, I'll have one. Is it like a Black Cow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_cream_soda)?

vy65
04-05-2011, 11:56 AM
Prove to me it is not an understood native function of the period and you win. It is pointless for you to argue any other point. If you are not going to argue against my reason for my belief, then you are wasting both out time.


"[The Commander-in-Chief power] would amount to nothing more than the supreme command and direction of the military and naval forces, as first general and admiral of the confederacy: while that of the British king extends to the declaring of war, and to the raising and regulating of fleets and armies; all which, by the constitution under consideration, would appertain to the legislature." The Federalist No. 69, p. 357.

What are you not getting?

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 05:15 PM
You are the one making the claim, the onus is on you to find the supporting legalese backing it up.

I would say otherwise because of the history, but we disagree there too.

If you are not willing to show me wrong by the method I ask, then maybe you should stop wasting your time.

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 05:17 PM
The whole point of the Constitution was to limit the powers of each branch. So it doesn't matter if it was an "assumed" function elsewhere for the CiC/king; the founders thought it gave the executive too much power, so they deliberately placed it in the hands of the people to go to war.

It's spelled out in numerous areas. For the umpteenth time, canyou find anyone willing to back your assertion up?
I don't need to back up my assertion past pointing out the understanding of the time frame. Past that, it is for those of you who disagree to prove me wrong. If you are not willing to show my understanding of the CiC role in history is incorrect, then please stop wasting our time.

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 05:20 PM
What are you not getting?
I get that. He believed what he wrote. However, the federalist papers are a guideline with limitations. How many times must I repeat these points? Not all things discussed were put into the constitution. The CiC's understood power to declare war was not limited in Article II.

What don't you get?

Again, if you cannot show my historical interpretation of the CiC role is wrong, please stop wasting our time.

vy65
04-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Again, if you cannot show my historical interpretation of the CiC role is wrong, please stop wasting our time.

Let me get this straight: you're saying that your "historical interpretation" is right and that the Federalist No. 69 - historical proof written by a framer that directly refutes your interpretation - is wrong?

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 06:05 PM
Let me get this straight: you're saying that your "historical interpretation" is right and that the Federalist No. 69 - historical proof written by a framer that directly refutes your interpretation - is wrong?
No, I'm saying that not everything in the Federalist papers made it to be incorporated as part of the constitution. My contention is that in the end, if they intended to remove that understood role of a CiC, then they would have stated so in Article II.

vy65
04-05-2011, 06:33 PM
You realize the Federalist Papers are authoritative interpretations of the Constitution, right? Do you have any reason for ignoring No. 69 other than "it's not in the text?"

By your logic, the President should be able to set a federal income tax. Does that sound right to you?

LnGrrrR
04-05-2011, 07:56 PM
I don't need to back up my assertion past pointing out the understanding of the time frame. Past that, it is for those of you who disagree to prove me wrong. If you are not willing to show my understanding of the CiC role in history is incorrect, then please stop wasting our time.

What difference does it make what the CiC did in OTHER countries? OUR CiC was deliberately denied that power, in order to make us DIFFERENT from what the commonly understood role was.

What about that aren't you getting?

LnGrrrR
04-05-2011, 07:58 PM
Honestly WC, your logic is laughable. "I said X exists, and if you can't prove it doesn't exist, then I win."



Again, if you cannot show my historical interpretation of the CiC role is wrong, please stop wasting our time.


What more can we do? We've proven that SCOTUS disagrees with you, and the Founding Fathers who helped WRITE THE CONSTITUTION disagree with you. What more is left to disprove?

Do you want us to resurrect the Founders, bring them to your doorstep, and have a chat about it over biscuits and tea?

Wild Cobra
04-05-2011, 10:47 PM
Honestly WC, your logic is laughable. "I said X exists, and if you can't prove it doesn't exist, then I win."



What more can we do? We've proven that SCOTUS disagrees with you, and the Founding Fathers who helped WRITE THE CONSTITUTION disagree with you. What more is left to disprove?

Do you want us to resurrect the Founders, bring them to your doorstep, and have a chat about it over biscuits and tea?
I'll tell you what. You guys are right. The Federalist #69 really is the key. Don't know what I was thinking. Maybe I'm getting senile. Maybe I was just having too much fun.

LnGrrrR
04-06-2011, 01:43 AM
I'll tell you what. You guys are right. The Federalist #69 really is the key. Don't know what I was thinking. Maybe I'm getting senile. Maybe I was just having too much fun.

Yeesh WC, it's like pulling teeth getting you to change your mind. :lol

Wild Cobra
04-06-2011, 06:24 AM
Yeesh WC, it's like pulling teeth getting you to change your mind. :lol
Enjoy the victory while you can. It doesn't happen very often.

ElNono
04-06-2011, 07:59 AM
lol victory

Wild Cobra
04-07-2011, 10:34 AM
I want to thank you guys on setting me strait on this issue. I really hated supporting Obama on this one.

LnGrrrR
04-07-2011, 11:44 AM
I want to thank you guys on setting me strait on this issue. I really hated supporting Obama on this one.

You're welcome. :toast

Winehole23
10-03-2018, 12:31 PM
"collective self-defense" as a way around Congressional authorization.

Tim Kaine to James Mattis:

https://www.scribd.com/document/390037794/Kaine-Presses-Trump-Administration-on-the-Expansive-Use-of-Collective-Self-Defense-to-Justify-Military-Action-That-Bypasses-Congress

RandomGuy
10-08-2018, 01:36 PM
"collective self-defense" as a way around Congressional authorization.

Tim Kaine to James Mattis:

https://www.scribd.com/document/390037794/Kaine-Presses-Trump-Administration-on-the-Expansive-Use-of-Collective-Self-Defense-to-Justify-Military-Action-That-Bypasses-Congress

Welcome to the era of the Imperial Presidency.

It was shitty when Obama asserted that kind of thing, and now hopefully Democrats will wake up to the dangers of being too deferential to presidential powers. Once we get back in that office we will need to limit that.

The dangers of having an omnipotent executive will be fresh on everybody's mind. It will be our best shot in a generation.

boutons_deux
10-08-2018, 02:45 PM
"we will need to limit that".

Constitutional issue will got to SCOTUS, and lose 5-4 (over and over and over and over)

Winehole23
10-08-2018, 03:06 PM
boutons_bot

boutons_deux
10-08-2018, 03:10 PM
boutons_bot

Give up hope, whine hole, AmeriKKKa is OVA (for the non-oligarchy)

Winehole23
11-17-2018, 12:09 PM
GOP (with the decisive help of a few Democrats) tramples the War Powers Resolution of 1973 to prevent debate on US involvement in the war in Yemen:




In an odd spectacle, representatives went back and forth between speaking about wolves, who kill other animals, to the Saudi monarchy, which has killed hundreds of thousands of people – mostly civilians including children – and pushed 14 million people to the brink of starvation.


The Republicans had hijacked the “Manage our Wolves Act” – a bad but unrelated piece of legislation – to pass a rule that would prohibit the House from debating H Res 138, introduced by Ro Khanna, a Democratic representative from California. The latter resolution would give the president 30 days to get the US military out of the war in Yemen (https://www.theguardian.com/world/yemen).
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/15/america-stop-participating-yemen-war