Manu Ginobili deserves more criticism

[Creation88]

i'm over criticizing the role players. Bonner/Blair/Jefferson/Tiago are NOT the reasons this team will fail/succeed. we're the only team in the league looking for a 4th big star and that's not right.

it's time Manu Ginobili takes this team clearly over. enough with the terrible shot selection and lazy defense.

I know he's a fan-favorite but that's the #1 reason he never get criticism and the main reason Spurs fans call for Tiago/Bonner/Jefferson/Blair to step up.

someone put out the damn MANU BAT SYMBOL. :flag:

[Bito Corleone]

His shot selection is atrocious lately, even more so than usual.

[jeebus]

at least manu didn't go 0-5 from behind the arc...

[TMTTRIO]

Manu's been horrible lately with his shot selection and has been very careless in general. I'd rather have him sit out a few games and give Neal a lot of his minutes.

[Creation88]

took 17 secs to get that last shot up. ugh.

[honestfool84]

speakin' of the devil.

[stealthjbravo]

What the fuck was he thinking? Drive to the basic with 2 secs left?????

[20beastie45]

I'm critical of his shot decision....and I'm tired of Pop always going to him for the last shot.....

can someone tell me when the last time manu made a great game winning decision? Honest question

[honestfool84]

what the hell manu?! point blank range!

[honestfool84]

Manu Ginobili: April Fool's!

[honestfool84]

April Fool's on the April Fool's with that charge.

[honestfool84]

again with the step out of bounds. screw you Manu.

[stealthjbravo]

Manu is a fucking liability, more so than Bonner

[MI21]

It's ridiculous how this team will go away from the hot hand (Parker) and the tried and tested (Duncan down the stretch down low has been good value all season) at the end of the games to give the ball to Manu 30 feet from the hoop.

[Nathan89]

Favorite player but I have to agree. His contract is looking equally as bad as Rj.

[TwelveGs210]

He seems to have completely lost his court awareness..big mistakes lately..

[DesignatedT]

Manus bonehead play that lead to that turnover in the backcourt at the end of regulation as well.

[Creation88]

ever since he fucked up that 56 straight FT streak he's been iffy from the line. fails tonight again.

[kaji157]

Everyone is right tonight, but it's also true that he would have won the game tonight with the and-1 the refs called an offensive foul with Scola moving ANd inside the arc.

[ElNono]

He was the best out there... I don't know what you guys were looking at... Tony had his chance to turn the game around and he was airballing wide open 3's...

[Man In Black]

Dickie B just following the company line...nice charge call there Dick. It creates more intrigue for the LAL to get the 1st seed...it ties up the NBA nicely going into a lockout.

Other than that, if GHill could say the words, "TIMEOUT!" ...this game would have been already won.

[Creation88]

Tony Parker was the #1 reason we were even close. go watch the 1st and 3rd qtr again.

[Borosai]

Didn't he have another costly turnover down the stretch? With a lead? Like in Portland?

[ElNono]

The point is, when Tim and Manu add up 20+ each, and Tony puts up 30+ we need to win.

The guys you're looking for are the bench outside of Neal and RJ...

[slick'81]

manu in general is a turnover risk everytime he touches the ball

[Dex]

Manus bonehead play that lead to that turnover in the backcourt at the end of regulation as well.

This.

A moment before that play, I thought "hold on to the ball and you got this".

Manu chooses that time to decide like he's fucking allergic to orange.

If he doesn't make that pass, Spurs win. Simple as that.

[slayermin]

Tim should've said fuck it and shot it himself. He's the clutchest player on this team anyway.

[kaji157]

Manus bonehead play that lead to that turnover in the backcourt at the end of regulation as well.

Those were hill and parker

[DesignatedT]

Those were hill and parker

Manu started it with the initial terrible pass which Tony had to try and tip to himself. Manu should have just kept the ball and took the ball up himself rather then throwing a cross court pass to Tony.

[kaji157]

Manu started it with the initial terrible pass which Tony had to try and tip to himself. Manu should have just kept the ball and took the ball up himself rather then throwing a cross court pass to Tony.

Anyways i really think the refs have not gave asingle effing call to us when it counts, they are treating the Spurs as if they were a lottery team.

[Capt Bringdown]

Super-tired Manu with some colossal fuckups in this game.

[manu the best]

Bandwagoners .. Here come the haters .. After we lose another game then the blame will go to Tony and then to Timmy .. I'm so frustrated right now that I can't even believe that the spurs were the # 1 team in the league for almost the whole season.. We can blame pop/bonner/Manu/rj or anybody else in the team .. Its a team game .. Sometimes when your losing, nothing seems to go right .. It's part of the game .. Let's just hope the spurs will have the confidence entering the playoffs ..

[Caeman]

It's not just, "Bonner/Blair/Jefferson/Tiago". It's Neal, Hill, and Blair also. Any of those suckers show up, and we win.


Who else is in agreement?

[DPG21920]

I have been saying this all day when evaluating the Spurs. It's on Manu. Not entirely obviously, but the only problem they really need to solve is Manu. He has to have another level or else the Spurs are done. This is by far the biggest issue.

[ElNono]

This.

A moment before that play, I thought "hold on to the ball and you got this".

Manu chooses that time to decide like he's fucking allergic to orange.

If he doesn't make that pass, Spurs win. Simple as that.

What are you talking about? The pass to hill?

He had to pass it or it's a 8 second violation...

[james evans]

yes manu deserves a lot more criticism. i swear my heart aches every time i see him do that stupid step back jumper from 24 feet out. he hardly ever hits it. i don't know why the spurs don't shoot mid range jumpers. blair, parker, and mcdyess are the only ones that do. jefferson has gone 3 crazy, ginobli when he's not flopping is shooting step back 3s, neal won't hold the ball for longer than .5 seconds if he's behind the 3 point line open, bonner is afraid of the post, splitter, can't even hit a layup, and blair plays the paint..

[james evans]

Manu started it with the initial terrible pass which Tony had to try and tip to himself. Manu should have just kept the ball and took the ball up himself rather then throwing a cross court pass to Tony.

OMG!! he ALWAYS DOES THAT!! he throws the most cross court passes each game. u learn in middle school to not throw from baseline to baseline across court.

[ElNono]

I have been saying this all day when evaluating the Spurs. It's on Manu. Not entirely obviously, but the only problem they really need to solve is Manu. He has to have another level or else the Spurs are done. This is by far the biggest issue.

Sorry, but if Manu has to score 30+ every night, we're long done.

We can afford to have people out there for 25 mins without a basket... or 30 mins and just 5 points...

[MannyIsGod]

He was the best out there... I don't know what you guys were looking at... Tony had his chance to turn the game around and he was airballing wide open 3's...

:lol April Fools??!?!?!?!?!??

[DPG21920]

Sorry, but if Manu has to score 30+ every night, we're long done.

We can afford to have people out there for 25 mins without a basket... or 30 mins and just 5 points...

He doesn't have to score 30, but he has to be more efficient and he has to have the energy we are used to seeing when it matters. He has to get to the line at a better clip.

Basically, he needs to match TP and Tim's level of play. He is clearly a step below that and has been for a while now.

[spursbird]

It has been a long while. Manu sucked in shot selection this year. Manu fans can find excuses like he's not a pure shooter and will be 100% in playoffs. Forget these bullshits. Last time when TP have many TOs he's fucked in the ST, but what about Manu? Why's there so much bias? Sometimes Duck is right.

[Pauleta14]

It's not Manu's only/main fault here, je's always doing his best and at least he is trying...

I mean Manu is a warrior and will never say he's not in condition to compete, Pop knows it and in spite of that keep giving him the ball in the clutch...

When he's not 100%, Manu is a TO machine and Pop can't ignore that and should force him to rest or give the ball to Tony or Timmy who are fresher and more efficient.

[Man In Black]

What are you talking about? The pass to hill?

He had to pass it or it's a 8 second violation...

Again...all Hill had to do was call a fucking timeout. That's it...he does that...BALLGAME.

[ElNono]

:lol April Fools??!?!?!?!?!??

:stirpot: :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Manu had a little money on the game...blame his bookie.

[ElNono]

He doesn't have to score 30, but he has to be more efficient and he has to have the energy we are used to seeing when it matters. He has to get to the line at a better clip.

Basically, he needs to match TP and Tim's level of play. He is clearly a step below that and has been for a while now.

He drove a lot in the second half... heck, he didn't even chuck that many 3's this game. Again, when you give guys 30, 25 minutes and they get you 5 or no points, that's where you need to be looking at. Especially since other guys relegated to the bench were actually producing more.

[txallstar]

the whole team sucked and their defense is not good this year, they aren't in the top 10 and that hardly wins you a championship.

manu deserves some criticism, yes he had 20+ pts but this goes way back even back to the dumb ass decision of game 7 in the 06 playoffs against the mavs.

what happened to his mid-range game? why the hell does he always look worn out and tired? get a new conditioning coach or some thing. he's the only player, at his caliber, in the league that gets fucking tired at the end of games. i love manu and yes he did score tonight but he has too many of these ghost games (against boston) through out the season(s). the spurs shouldn't have to live or die with him. bonner is absolutely horrible too, how he's here i have no idea - bonner is in playoff mode early doesn't he know he can't start bricking shots until the playoffs start

we would complain about constant 4 down set up but this is the year for that and it seems that has gone out the window as well. post, kick out, repost/drive or kick out to shooter - w/all the supposed shooters on this team, that plan has been totally eliminated

[Man In Black]

Perhaps he's feeling th pinch of having to defend the opp's best wing player when GHill isn't doing it. Since RJ's defense is just a level above Derek The Turstile Fisher and Matt-I Back up-Bonner, it means that those minutes where Manu gets to rest doesn't occur at all. When you're fighting uphill...it's just that...UPHILL BATTLE.

[Man In Black]

George Hill made an errant pass that Tony Parker managed to bat back into Hill's hands, but when he tried to pass back to Parker, Houston's Courtney Lee intercepted the pass for an easy layup.
“Parker did a good job of keeping it alive,” Lee said, “and then I saw that George Hill was trapped and he was bobbling the ball, and Parker was running, too.
“I was the next man in rotation, so I just shot the gap and was able to get the steal.”


Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Spurs-late-game-troubles-rear-their-ugly-head-1319402.php#ixzz1ILWkpzaB

[Libri]

Manu started it with the initial terrible pass which Tony had to try and tip to himself. Manu should have just kept the ball and took the ball up himself rather then throwing a cross court pass to Tony.

You're right! I saw the replay and it started with that lazy pass by Manu. An egregious error that came at a critical moment of the game.

[Man In Black]

You're right! I saw the replay and it started with that lazy pass by Manu. An egregious error that came at a critical moment of the game.
I agree with you, but you have to play the whole play through until the change of possession.

Ginobili gets the rebound, he has Duncan and Parker and Hill and Bonner with just Lee to watch out for.
Ginobili sees Parker and wants to pass the ball to the point and telegraphs the pass to TP.
Lee pulls an old Horry trick out of the book and makes a clean break on the ball.
Parker fights him for the ball and gets the ball up to Duncan.
Duncan passes the ball to Hill. The clock shows 19 here. Spurs are still up 3. You can call a timeout here. You still have 3 seconds to cross the halfcourt.
Hill crosses at 18, executes a reverse pivot move and spins. He should have called a timeout here. But he doesn't.

The play in the scorekeeper's book is listed like this:
Ginobili Rebound (Off:1 Def:5) 00:49.9
Hill Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Lee (1 ST) 00:39.9
That's the ballgame.

I agree that Manu's initial pass was a bad idea, but they could have overcome that. It should never have been thrown true...but these old pros have played like Biddy Basketball league teams. Errant passes a plenty.

[roycrikside]

No wonder the Spurs don't get respect from the refs, they have by far the stupidest fanbase in the NBA. You people are all fucking idiots.

Manu has a 23-7-6 game with 3 steals and 2 turnovers, and he's being ripped on here like he's Bonner. What the fuck are you people looking at? He had a great game.

Until the last desperation 3 in overtime with no time left and them down 5 (a meaningless shot) he was 7-16, which is a pretty good percentage for him. And he got to the line 8 times and made 7.

You people are morons from a podunk town and don't understand the game at all. All you care about are points and you don't care how efficiently (or not) they come and you don't care about the passes that lead to the points.

It's the same mentality people like TPark have when the Lakers beat us and Kobe Bryant scores 33 points on 12-of-32 shooting with 3 assists and 6 turnovers. All he sees is the 33 points and meanwhile Pau will have 18 points on 8-11 shooting with 13 rebounds and Bynum will have 14 points on 7-9 shooting with 11 rebounds and you people won't realize they're the ones who beat us, not Kobe.

Tim, Tony and Manu were not the reasons we lost. They all played great. We lost because the bench (Neal, Hill, Blair, Bonner) and RJ were all absolute dog shit. Anyone with half a fucking brain could see that.

You're all terrible fans and really don't deserve a team half as good as the Spurs. You deserve a roster like the Cavs, quite frankly. Good lord.

[diego]

He doesn't have to score 30, but he has to be more efficient and he has to have the energy we are used to seeing when it matters. He has to get to the line at a better clip.

Basically, he needs to match TP and Tim's level of play. He is clearly a step below that and has been for a while now.

i agree manu needs to play better (read: smarter) in the PO for the spurs to be successful. and I agree that tp is playing the best out of the big 3 right now. but since when is duncan playing above manu's level for it to constitute a while now? two games?

for the PO, i'm a lot more worried about:
bonner staying on the bench
pop's rotations
hill, neal and RJ hitting their shots and playing composed
blair playing bigger than he is
bonner staying on the bench

the big 3 will bring it in the PO, no doubt in my mind. but as several games over the past 10-12 have shown, even with good games from 2 or even all of the big 3 if these other things dont happen we will still lose.

[romain.star]

He was the best out there... I don't know what you guys were looking at... Tony had his chance to turn the game around and he was airballing wide open 3's...

Elnono, you're one quality poster on this board. Really. So, please, don't loose your objectivity.

Manu is in a slump right now. It's obviously dumb to question his potential based on a few games sample but right now, ''he is not the best out there''

[ElNono]

Elnono, you're one quality poster on this board. Really. So, please, don't loose your objectivity.

Manu is in a slump right now. It's obviously dumb to question his potential based on a few games sample but right now, ''he is not the best out there''

:lol Take my posts with a grain of salt. Sometimes I just need to troll a bit to elicit a reaction. When I posted that, the forum was going bananas. :lol

[romain.star]

:lol Take my posts with a grain of salt. Sometimes I just need to troll a bit to elicit a reaction. When I posted that, the forum was going bananas. :lol

Lol

Btw, do you live in the US?? Don't you sleep from time to time?

[Doctor J]

No wonder the Spurs don't get respect from the refs, they have by far the stupidest fanbase in the NBA. You people are all fucking idiots.

Manu has a 23-7-6 game with 3 steals and 2 turnovers, and he's being ripped on here like he's Bonner. What the fuck are you people looking at? He had a great game.

Until the last desperation 3 in overtime with no time left and them down 5 (a meaningless shot) he was 7-16, which is a pretty good percentage for him. And he got to the line 8 times and made 7.

You people are morons from a podunk town and don't understand the game at all. All you care about are points and you don't care how efficiently (or not) they come and you don't care about the passes that lead to the points.

It's the same mentality people like TPark have when the Lakers beat us and Kobe Bryant scores 33 points on 12-of-32 shooting with 3 assists and 6 turnovers. All he sees is the 33 points and meanwhile Pau will have 18 points on 8-11 shooting with 13 rebounds and Bynum will have 14 points on 7-9 shooting with 11 rebounds and you people won't realize they're the ones who beat us, not Kobe.

Tim, Tony and Manu were not the reasons we lost. They all played great. We lost because the bench (Neal, Hill, Blair, Bonner) and RJ were all absolute dog shit. Anyone with half a fucking brain could see that.

You're all terrible fans and really don't deserve a team half as good as the Spurs. You deserve a roster like the Cavs, quite frankly. Good lord.



This. :toast

[Reggie Williams]

Lol

Spurs fans: No, George Hill is the greatest! GH3 for Life!!!!!!!! I love George Hill!!!!!

You guys are idiots if you still wouldn't trade him for Courtney Lee

[Manu-of-steel]

No wonder the Spurs don't get respect from the refs, they have by far the stupidest fanbase in the NBA. You people are all fucking idiots.

Manu has a 23-7-6 game with 3 steals and 2 turnovers, and he's being ripped on here like he's Bonner. What the fuck are you people looking at? He had a great game.

Until the last desperation 3 in overtime with no time left and them down 5 (a meaningless shot) he was 7-16, which is a pretty good percentage for him. And he got to the line 8 times and made 7.

You people are morons from a podunk town and don't understand the game at all. All you care about are points and you don't care how efficiently (or not) they come and you don't care about the passes that lead to the points.

It's the same mentality people like TPark have when the Lakers beat us and Kobe Bryant scores 33 points on 12-of-32 shooting with 3 assists and 6 turnovers. All he sees is the 33 points and meanwhile Pau will have 18 points on 8-11 shooting with 13 rebounds and Bynum will have 14 points on 7-9 shooting with 11 rebounds and you people won't realize they're the ones who beat us, not Kobe.

Tim, Tony and Manu were not the reasons we lost. They all played great. We lost because the bench (Neal, Hill, Blair, Bonner) and RJ were all absolute dog shit. Anyone with half a fucking brain could see that.

You're all terrible fans and really don't deserve a team half as good as the Spurs. You deserve a roster like the Cavs, quite frankly. Good lord.
Agree with this post completely.

[TMTTRIO]

Manu needs to just sit out the next game or two. Obviously he's worn out of it and Hill seems to step it up when either Tony or Manu are out.

[DPG21920]

He drove a lot in the second half... heck, he didn't even chuck that many 3's this game. Again, when you give guys 30, 25 minutes and they get you 5 or no points, that's where you need to be looking at. Especially since other guys relegated to the bench were actually producing more.

It's not just about this game, TheNono. I am, as I usually do, referring to the bigger picture.

While he did get to the line and drive much more than lately, he is still not efficient as the Spurs need him to be. That doesn't mean he is playing terrible, but he is simply not playing at a level high enough for the Spurs to win (meaning WCF of more).

I agree there are other things to worry about, but when you watch Manu play, he looks devoid of his legs and energy. Which is the reason for the poor shooting for so long now.

The bench and role players are crucial, but it all hinges on the Big 3 and Manu has been the worst of the big 3 this year for a while now.


i agree manu needs to play better (read: smarter) in the PO for the spurs to be successful. and I agree that tp is playing the best out of the big 3 right now. but since when is duncan playing above manu's level for it to constitute a while now? two games?



While Duncan has looked unbelievably good these past two games, for the year, TP and Tim have been better and more consistent. Again, its not just about this past game or so. Tim hasn't been scoring as much, but he has really helped the defense. He has been more steady than Manu.

These past two games its not even close and that is what we need to see because the playoffs are almost here. All that matters is how you are playing now and Manu is not on TP's or Tim's level at the moment and hasn't been for a while this year.

[DPG21920]

Lol

Spurs fans: No, George Hill is the greatest! GH3 for Life!!!!!!!! I love George Hill!!!!!

You guys are idiots if you still wouldn't trade him for Courtney Lee

That is so retarded it's not even funny. Even with Hill's ups and downs, there is no question he is better not only day to day than Lee, but his ceiling is considerably higher.

[Creation88]

No wonder the Spurs don't get respect from the refs, they have by far the stupidest fanbase in the NBA. You people are all fucking idiots.

Manu has a 23-7-6 game with 3 steals and 2 turnovers, and he's being ripped on here like he's Bonner. What the fuck are you people looking at? He had a great game.

Until the last desperation 3 in overtime with no time left and them down 5 (a meaningless shot) he was 7-16, which is a pretty good percentage for him. And he got to the line 8 times and made 7.

You people are morons from a podunk town and don't understand the game at all. All you care about are points and you don't care how efficiently (or not) they come and you don't care about the passes that lead to the points.

It's the same mentality people like TPark have when the Lakers beat us and Kobe Bryant scores 33 points on 12-of-32 shooting with 3 assists and 6 turnovers. All he sees is the 33 points and meanwhile Pau will have 18 points on 8-11 shooting with 13 rebounds and Bynum will have 14 points on 7-9 shooting with 11 rebounds and you people won't realize they're the ones who beat us, not Kobe.

Tim, Tony and Manu were not the reasons we lost. They all played great. We lost because the bench (Neal, Hill, Blair, Bonner) and RJ were all absolute dog shit. Anyone with half a fucking brain could see that.

You're all terrible fans and really don't deserve a team half as good as the Spurs. You deserve a roster like the Cavs, quite frankly. Good lord.

gimme a fucking break. this post isn't just for last night's game, where were you in Feb when Manu dragged ass?

where were you the last game against the Celtics were Manu was obsolete? take off your fucking black/silver glasses, just because he's the most beloved Spur doesn't mean he doesn't deserve criticism. stop being such a damn sheep homer.

if you watched the game last night, Manu was dragging ass on defense and he has ZERO legs under his ill-advised 3s late in games.

[ALVAREZ6]

Elnono, you're one quality poster on this board. Really. So, please, don't loose your objectivity.

Manu is in a slump right now. It's obviously dumb to question his potential based on a few games sample but right now, ''he is not the best out there''

He has been "slumping" for 80% of this season. So, that's much more than a slump. He simply blows. As smart as the dude is, it doesn't seem like it at all anymore while watching him play. Oh well.

[dbreiden83080]

Manu tries to take the ball to the hoop from the 3 pt line with 2 seconds on the clock at end of reg

great idea Manu.. Way to not know the situation in the game coming out of a timeout..

Manu deserves a lot of criticism..

[pjjrfan]

this game was won but Manu chosed to make a sloppy pass instead of moving the ball across the time line and calling a time out then Tim makes a great save and Hill catches manuitis and also doesn't call a time out and just throws the ball away. It.sthis kind of sloppy play that has me upset Manu been playing like he has lost more than one step and Tony insists on going one on one on almost every possession,Hill and Manu do the same thing, and whenever Blair get the ball he does the same thing, Jefferson doesn't want to shoot anymore and Bonner also Neal is the only one who wants to shoot but seldom get the ball.

[vander]

no it's all Bonner's fault,

16ppg at around 40%/30% last couple months is ELITE

same goes for Duncan's 13/7 :lol

like I said before, all 3 of our big 3 are better suited as 4th options, TP maybe a 3rd.

this team won't even get out of the first round on the backs of the big 3, it's all up to the role players.

[jimo2305]

my avatar is so inappropriate right now..

yes IM MAD!!! :(

but regardless i still haven't lost it.. here's to hoping we turn it around and stay ahead while we can

[Strategic]

Between Timmy, Manu and Tony they are making over half of the teams' payroll. It's their baby. They all had the ball in the clutch. They either threw it away, couldn't make a shot or didn't run the offense when they should have. They are high paid veterans with successful pedigrees. You win or lose the game in the 4th quarter with the ball in the man's hands. These big numbers Manu had mean about as much as Carmello Anthony's big numbers. THEY DON'T MEAN SHIT UNLESS YOUR TEAM WINS!! :nope

[romain.star]

He has been "slumping" for 80% of this season. So, that's much more than a slump. He simply blows. As smart as the dude is, it doesn't seem like it at all anymore while watching him play. Oh well.

Come on, Manu has played great ball till the ASG.

[Strategic]

Come on, Manu has played great ball till the ASG.


All Manu needs is rest. He probably needs more at this point than anyone on the roster. He is a great example of how fatigue affects ones physical and decision making abilities. Give him proper rest and both will improve vastly.:hat

[romain.star]

All Manu needs is rest. He probably needs more at this point than anyone on the roster. He is a great example of how fatigue affects ones physical and decision making abilities. Give him proper rest and both will improve vastly.:hat

Spot on... This is exactly why i've never considered Manu a franchise player ala Bryant, Wade, Pierce, Miller, Durant or even Iverson. He has never been able to carry an NBA team as the go to guy.
He is the perfect X factor. No more, no less.

[ALVAREZ6]

Come on, Manu has played great ball till the ASG.

That isn't true, I remember well. He shot pretty poorly for weeks leading up to the ASG, probably closer to 2 months actually now that I look back and think about it.

[romain.star]

That isn't true, I remember well. He shot pretty poorly for weeks leading up to the ASG, probably closer to 2 months actually now that I look back and think about it.

Ok.... I remember a mini slump in early January but Manu's overall production was really good until this ASG

[ALVAREZ6]

Ok.... I remember a mini slump in early January but Manu's overall production was really good until this ASG

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01/splits/2011/

Pre-ASG: 42.7% FG
Post-ASG: 43.4% FG


November: 49%
December: 40%
January: 41.5%
February: 37.7%


Believe what you'd like bro, but I'm gonna go with the cold hard facts which support my memory of this past season.

[15 and counting]

From an outsider perspective. Three things wrong with the Spurs is that age is creeping in with the big three. Scola should never had been let go but the main reason is the front office. They are responsible for not giving Tim the help that he deserves. Instead they pick up journeymen that only serves as temporary fix but does not solve the main problem. Look at how the Lakers front office aggressively pursues free agents during the off season.

[romain.star]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01/splits/2011/

Pre-ASG: 42.7% FG
Post-ASG: 43.4% FG


November: 49%
December: 40%
January: 41.5%
February: 37.7%


Believe what you'd like bro, but I'm gonna go with the cold hard facts which support my memory of this past season.

Statistic does not say it all when it comes to a player like Manu. You probably know that much better than me.
As far as I remember, pre ASG Manu was the key factor for the Spurs successes.

[ALVAREZ6]

Statistic does not say it all when it comes to a player like Manu. You probably know that much better than me.
As far as I remember, pre ASG Manu was the key factor for the Spurs successes.

Those stats are very relevant in this conversation and don't lie. Just accept that I was correct in this case. We were talking about Manu "slumping" in his shooting and I argued that it's been going on almost all season, and it's undeniable after seeing those stats. Don't try to avoid the real conversation here by saying things like what you said.

You're right that stats don't tell the whole story for a player, especially like Manu, but we're talking about his shooting, and his shot selection and shooting percentage has been upsetting. That is undeniable. In any case, he was not the key factor for the Spurs, just one of many factors of equal importance. Tony Parker has been very consistent and effective all season long, another factor. Until the past week or so, the big 3 has also been injury free; another big difference in this season and factor for their success. Finally, the bench has played unbelievably compared to years past, this season. Gary Neal emerged out of nowhere and contributed immediately, and he along with Bonner have made it rain from 3 for most of the season.

I don't see anything wrong in telling it like it is. Manu is my favorite player of all time, and knowing what he's capable of, it makes me hold him to high standards. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's the main reason why the Spurs have been successful this season and that he's played great this season compared to what the popular perception is. I'm a realist before anything.

[Strategic]

Look at how the Lakers front office aggressively pursues free agents during the off season.


And with no consideration for the salary cap, may I add.:nope

[ElNono]

Lol

Btw, do you live in the US?? Don't you sleep from time to time?

I do. Sleep is limited these days though...

[ginobilized]

Manu couldn't have stopped Ditka last night

[romain.star]

Those stats are very relevant in this conversation and don't lie. Just accept that I was correct in this case. We were talking about Manu "slumping" in his shooting and I argued that it's been going on almost all season, and it's undeniable after seeing those stats. Don't try to avoid the real conversation here by saying things like what you said.

You're right that stats don't tell the whole story for a player, especially like Manu, but we're talking about his shooting, and his shot selection and shooting percentage has been upsetting. That is undeniable. In any case, he was not the key factor for the Spurs, just one of many factors of equal importance. Tony Parker has been very consistent and effective all season long, another factor. Until the past week or so, the big 3 has also been injury free; another big difference in this season and factor for their success. Finally, the bench has played unbelievably compared to years past, this season. Gary Neal emerged out of nowhere and contributed immediately, and he along with Bonner have made it rain from 3 for most of the season.

I don't see anything wrong in telling it like it is. Manu is my favorite player of all time, and knowing what he's capable of, it makes me hold him to high standards. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's the main reason why the Spurs have been successful this season and that he's played great this season compared to what the popular perception is. I'm a realist before anything.

Maybe my limited English prevents me from expressing clearly my opinion but I'm not avoiding anything here... I should have made it clear that I was not only talking about his shooting.
IMHO, his overall production was good/great priori to the ASG. I really believe that he was the n°1 reason for the Spurs amazing successes early this season (TP being a close second).

Now i don't get why people are surprised by Manu's slump. It's been like that ever since he was drafted by the Spurs. He has had significant slumps every single season of his NBA career. He just does not have the physical tools to manage 100 games a year (+international BB).

[Slippy]

Manu's always in the firing line as he's the one with the pressure of closing. Being a fan favourite also brings out the most passionate haters around. Just look up Ducks. When the team loses everything becomes amplified.

You can fault Manu for bad time management but when it came down to crunch time, he a did great job of setting up others and getting to the line. To blame him for a turn-over that was in Hill's control is just looking for scapegoat. Fans just love to pile-on.

[Pauleta14]

te laisses pas faire romain!

[diego]

Those stats are very relevant in this conversation and don't lie. Just accept that I was correct in this case. We were talking about Manu "slumping" in his shooting and I argued that it's been going on almost all season, and it's undeniable after seeing those stats. Don't try to avoid the real conversation here by saying things like what you said.

You're right that stats don't tell the whole story for a player, especially like Manu, but we're talking about his shooting, and his shot selection and shooting percentage has been upsetting. That is undeniable. In any case, he was not the key factor for the Spurs, just one of many factors of equal importance. Tony Parker has been very consistent and effective all season long, another factor. Until the past week or so, the big 3 has also been injury free; another big difference in this season and factor for their success. Finally, the bench has played unbelievably compared to years past, this season. Gary Neal emerged out of nowhere and contributed immediately, and he along with Bonner have made it rain from 3 for most of the season.

I don't see anything wrong in telling it like it is. Manu is my favorite player of all time, and knowing what he's capable of, it makes me hold him to high standards. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's the main reason why the Spurs have been successful this season and that he's played great this season compared to what the popular perception is. I'm a realist before anything.

those stats dont take into account that manu has shot more 3 s this season than any other, in fact being one of the biggest 3p attempters in the league- when you consider his minutes and that he is not a specialist, its an obvious change in his game. Still, he has a TS% of 57.9, coincidentally a couple of hair ahead of TP w/57.1 and TD w/53.2. he also has the highest PER of the big 3, a hair ahead of duncan. he leads the team in +/-. for most media he was the team's best player (and therefore a de facto MVP candidate) and the clearest all star on the team.

I dont like to use stats and reputations to measure players, because they obviously dont tell the whole story. If you watch manu, he is playing a different style, exactly because he lacks stamina and so attempts to take care of his body, by driving less and chucking more. If now he is struggling to transition back to his driving game I rather it now than in the 1st round. and as always, TD and TP have been more consistent than manu but he has been clearly better than TD this year, and only slightly better than TP so far (remember that TP had a little slump of his own). i agree about the bench having played well for most of the season till now- but who gets that credit? and if manu's slump is connected to theirs? its hard to create when the offense game plan depends on (insert: finley, mason, bogans, bonner) to make 3s. hell we set up TP for like 3 3pters at the end- why play against his strength and insist on looking for that shot? at least the big 3, dyess, hill and neal I have faith in to make those shots and not be a pylon on the other side.

does manu need to get it together? yes. like always his inside-out game depends on defenders coming out to guard him, and if his shot is gone its likely his entire offensive game goes with it (he'll still defend and dive for loose balls though). is he the main reason for the six game losing streak? hell no. i only watched the 4th and OT for the game, which was full of bad D, missed FT, and turnovers (which the spurs did as a team, not just manu). watching that, if you are looking for a scapegoat for the loss, look for the person who chose bonner over scola for our frontcourt and leaves the other guy they waited 3 (?) years for and a highly rated draft steal watch it from the bench. (the same who demands a "floor spreading" big man)
:stirpot:

[romain.star]

te laisses pas faire romain!

C'est le monde à l'envers.... Un français qui défend Manu et un Argentin qui le taille

[analyzed]

This thread doesn't deserve any attention. while it's true Manu is not playing as well as he was earlier in the season. this really is more a reflection of the level of play he was playing earlier. While I admit Manu is no longer the horse who can bring it game after game for the whole season. He definetly is our borometer for success. With Manu the good comes with the bad. but you have to play him this way to get the best out of him.
BTW while I don't suggest going to Manu exclusively to close out games to avoid predictibility , he's still are best closer and you want him involved and touching the ball at the end. wheter that leads to drive or he just acts as decoy (similar to that back door play with a minute to go vs houston. Manu to tim then to tony. the defense focus was on manu to get a handoff from tim. I don't like Tony getting the ball free at the corners, this is what the defense wants him to do , shoot threes, there is a reason why tony is free at the corners and the defense packs the paint.
We really have to be smart how we use the big 3 to compliment each other , Manu is no longer a horse, much more TD, while tony is great at attacking the open court, but he sucks as a catch and shoot player.

One last thing, I heard Sean _ saying we got the shots we wanted we just din't make them. I would question that, seriously do we really want Matt Bonner and Tony shooting threes in clutch situations? When was the last time either made a three with the game on the line. There is a reason why opponens leave them free at game end. Do you honestly think teams would rather have Manu driving or tim rolling to the basket over Tony and bonner taking threes, I don't think so. Tony and Bonner ( i hate to put them in the same group) are not Horry and bowen (catch and shoot players who love hitting that open 3 with game on the line.

[ALVAREZ6]

C'est le monde à l'envers.... Un français qui défend Manu et un Argentin qui le taille

I just can't be a blind homer on the subject. It's not just his shooting, but his shot selection throughout games is just horrible at this point. I know it's never been consistently spectacular throughout his career, but if he refrained from taking so many terrible shots throughout the course of a game, the Spurs would have better chances. All else equal, they would have better chances of keeping leads and not having to grind it out in the last few minutes down to the wire. It's all about winning games before the last few minutes, and taking stupid shots throughout a game greatly decreased those chances, especially considering this team is nothing special on the defensive end.

[romain.star]

I just can't be a blind homer on the subject. It's not just his shooting, but his shot selection throughout games is just horrible at this point. I know it's never been consistently spectacular throughout his career, but if he refrained from taking so many terrible shots throughout the course of a game, the Spurs would have better chances. All else equal, they would have better chances of keeping leads and not having to grind it out in the last few minutes down to the wire. It's all about winning games before the last few minutes, and taking stupid shots throughout a game greatly decreased those chances, especially considering this team is nothing special on the defensive end.

We shall all agree on the fact that Manu plays like shit right now. He is having his annual slump. nothing new here. Hopefully, he'll be back to his usual self come PO time

[TMTTRIO]

Sad to say but I think Manu's done for the season. Hopefully Hill, Neal, and RJ will reappear and carry some of the load.

[v2freak]

No wonder the Spurs don't get respect from the refs, they have by far the stupidest fanbase in the NBA. You people are all fucking idiots.

Manu has a 23-7-6 game with 3 steals and 2 turnovers, and he's being ripped on here like he's Bonner. What the fuck are you people looking at? He had a great game.

Until the last desperation 3 in overtime with no time left and them down 5 (a meaningless shot) he was 7-16, which is a pretty good percentage for him. And he got to the line 8 times and made 7.

You people are morons from a podunk town and don't understand the game at all. All you care about are points and you don't care how efficiently (or not) they come and you don't care about the passes that lead to the points.

It's the same mentality people like TPark have when the Lakers beat us and Kobe Bryant scores 33 points on 12-of-32 shooting with 3 assists and 6 turnovers. All he sees is the 33 points and meanwhile Pau will have 18 points on 8-11 shooting with 13 rebounds and Bynum will have 14 points on 7-9 shooting with 11 rebounds and you people won't realize they're the ones who beat us, not Kobe.

Tim, Tony and Manu were not the reasons we lost. They all played great. We lost because the bench (Neal, Hill, Blair, Bonner) and RJ were all absolute dog shit. Anyone with half a fucking brain could see that.

You're all terrible fans and really don't deserve a team half as good as the Spurs. You deserve a roster like the Cavs, quite frankly. Good lord.

Refs reward teams based on their fanbase?