New engine sends shock waves through auto industry

[Winehole23]

New engine sends shock waves through auto industry

Prototype could potentially decrease auto emissions up to 90 percent




http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/Carengine.grid-4x2.jpg

By Nic Halverson


Discovery Channel


updated 4/6/2011 5:29:19 PM ET 2011-04-06T21:29:19


Despite shifting into higher gear within the consumer's green conscience, hybrid vehicles are still tethered to the gas pump via a fuel-thirsty 100-year-old invention: the internal combustion engine.



However, researchers at Michigan State University (http://www.msu.edu/) have built a prototype gasoline engine that requires no transmission, crankshaft, pistons, valves, fuel compression, cooling systems or fluids. Their so-called Wave Disk Generator could greatly improve the efficiency of gas-electric hybrid automobiles and potentially decrease auto emissions up to 90 percent when compared with conventional combustion engines.


The engine has a rotor that's equipped with wave-like channels that trap and mix oxygen and fuel as the rotor spins. These central inlets are blocked off, building pressure within the chamber, causing a shock wave that ignites the compressed air and fuel to transmit energy.


The Wave Disk Generator uses 60 percent of its fuel for propulsion; standard car engines use just 15 percent. As a result, the generator is 3.5 times more fuel efficient than typical combustion engines.


Researchers estimate the new model could shave almost 1,000 pounds off a car's weight currently taken up by conventional engine systems.


Last week, the prototype was presented to the energy division of the Advanced Research Projects Agency (http://arpa-e.energy.gov/), which is backing the Michigan State University Engine Research Laboratory (http://www.egr.msu.edu/ares/) with $2.5 million in funding.


Michigan State's team of engineers (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42460541/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/#) hope to have a car-sized 25-kilowatt version of the prototype ready by the end of the year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42460541/ns/technology_and_science-innovation/

[MannyIsGod]

That sounds bad ass.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll believe it when I see it. The video isn't very impressive.

uf_-IMgla34

Müller says the engine can be adapted to run on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen. Having built a small prototype, he hopes to have a 25-kilowatt version ready by the end of this year. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20928035.100-shock-wave-puts-hybrid-engines-in-a-spin.html)

[ChumpDumper]

Why don't you have an open mind?

[boutons_deux]

ARPA wasting an exorbitant $2.5M of taxpayer money on this bullshit?

cut taxes, defund ARPA, privatize (Michigan) state universities!!

-- oilco-financed shill (or any one of a number of ST shills).

[boutons_deux]

IP predators are already negotiating with MSU to lock up the patent :)

[Winehole23]

Ip?

[Wild Cobra]

IP predators are already negotiating with MSU to lock up the patent :)
Link please.

[Wild Cobra]

Ip?
I took it as meaning IPO. people wanting a guaranteed price for financing, but that a guess as to his intent.

[boutons_deux]

no, Intellectual Property, a huge and obviously not well known financial activity that turns everybody into renters.

People who buy a patent and then charge outrageous prices for it, like the company that made a patent for a hormone for women at risk of premature delivery that used to cost $20 shot, then asked $1500/shot.

Or companies at risk from being damaged or destroyed by a revolutionay, paradigm-shaking new product or process so they buy the patent and then bury it.

Imagine American Petroleum Institute, a conspiracy financed by oilcos, or just Chevron, buying and burying Mueller's patent to protect oilco profits. What's to stop them?

[boutons_deux]

http://www.egr.msu.edu/mueller/

[Wild Cobra]

One thing wrong with this guy's untested prototype design is the scale. His "wave engine' isn't too different from attempts to scale down turbine engines. There has been some real interesting progress there.

[ChumpDumper]

Why don't you have an open mind?

[ChuckD]

Radical technology is never welcomed by entrenched interests. For a funny look at it, go forward to 2:50.
uApuWhEQU-4

[fraga]

Hey that's the same guy who sold me real estate on the moon..what are the odds...

[ElNono]

I took it as meaning IPO. people wanting a guaranteed price for financing, but that a guess as to his intent.

IP = Intellectual Property... he's probably referring to patent protection by shared between college and a third party. Fairly common occurrence.

[ElNono]

One thing wrong with this guy's untested prototype design is the scale. His "wave engine' isn't too different from attempts to scale down turbine engines. There has been some real interesting progress there.

Where's your highly-efficient combustion engine/turbine so we can asses you know what you're talking about?

[ElNono]

I read about this earlier today... what's innovative about the design is that it wasn't thought from the start as a conventional combustion engine. This thing requires electricity to start up the process, so it's always going to be a hybrid engine.

Self-contained combustion engines have always been very inefficient. It's encouraging to start seeing designs 'outside-the-box' that incorporate other tech to improve efficiency.

[4>0rings]

This thing requires electricity to start up the process, so it's always going to be a hybrid engine.


So it just needs juice to start, like a car battery.

[Nbadan]

I'd want to see one of these things actually work before I sunk any money into it, although it is innovative, but so where propane and air powered cars...

[greyforest]

Video is old, October of 2009.

The most recent update is supplied by WC:




Müller says the engine can be adapted to run on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen. Having built a small prototype, he hopes to have a 25-kilowatt version ready by the end of this year. (http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20928035.100-shock-wave-puts-hybrid-engines-in-a-spin.html)

[FuzzyLumpkins]

One thing wrong with this guy's untested prototype design is the scale. His "wave engine' isn't too different from attempts to scale down turbine engines. There has been some real interesting progress there.

You do not even know how the electric fields in a capacitor work. Now you think you have some idea about compression in a rotational system?

Go read some wikipedia dipshit.

[Nbadan]

If this design is so promising, I question why it takes so long to go from the design and theoretical phase to the proto-type phase...this could be an answer to our energy and the environmental crisis..

theoretically...

[TDMVPDPOY]

why not just build a pipe from the esxaust back into the engine block? :D

[TimDunkem]

why not just build a pipe from the esxaust back into the engine block? :D
:lol

[RandomGuy]

Think outside a car, this is an *electric generator*.

Your standard back up generator just got obsolete as well.

This thing could have some pretty profound implications that reach far beyond the hood of your car.

For one thing, think about the people who make the parts for the cooling systems for cars now, etc, etc.

Not necessarily a bad thing that those parts have been outsourced to foreigners.


I can't help but think about utility-scale generators as well. From what I understand you get a good chunk of energy loss going from one phase of energy to another. Current generators commonly burn something and use that thermal energy to boil water to produce steam to turn electric turbines (thermal --> electricity). If it suddenly makes economic sense to simply burn the fuel directly, that makes things like oil/gas electrical generation a helluva lot cheaper. The actual economics of such a thing would be interesting to get a sense of.

It would also have a profound implication in developing countries with unreliable power grids that currently get a lot of their power from individual gas generators.

[boutons_deux]

Germans invented the diesel, and this German is re-inventing the diesel.

25 Kw is 33 HP (Americans are so quaint with their non-metric, old-timey, variously defined "horse" power).

It will be interesting to see how super expensive the patent owner rents out the technology. Probably way too expensive for widespread, rapid adoption.

[Wild Cobra]

If this design is so promising, I question why it takes so long to go from the design and theoretical phase to the proto-type phase...this could be an answer to our energy and the environmental crisis..

theoretically...
The problem is making such an engine function at one scale, then ramping it up to a large enough one to produce 25KW. As you double your flow size, you cannot double you vane spacing. There are certain physical realities since air has mass. I understand the dynamics, but fall short on writing an understandable explanation. As for solving the scaling issue, I fall even shorter to that task.

Trial and error, and it still may be impossible to scale past a certain size.

[DMX7]

At least give it a chance. We aren't going to find any disruptive technologies without a venture capitalist mindset, so even if it doesn't work, move on and try to finance some other promising technology. Yeah, it's expensive, but its nothing compared to the payoff once this or something else that achieves similar goals ends up working, which absolutely is going to happen eventually.

[Wild Cobra]

At least give it a chance. We aren't going to find any disruptive technologies without a venture capitalist mindset, so even if it doesn't work, move on and try to finance some other promising technology. Yeah, it's expensive, but its nothing compared to the payoff once this or something else that achieves similar goals ends up working, which absolutely is going to happen eventually.
I'll give it a chance, I hope it can happen. I just understand the complexities involved and don't think it will happen.

[DarrinS]

Looks like some type of diesel wankel rotary engine. I'll hold off my opinion until I see one on a dyno.

[024]

the oil companies will bury this and it will never see the light of day.

[Wild Cobra]

the oil companies will bury this and it will never see the light of day.
Yep, just like the conspiracy theory of the 100 MPG carburetor for the 2 ton cars of the 60's.

[ElNono]

Yep, just like the conspiracy theory of the 100 MPG carburetor for the 2 ton cars of the 60's.

Or the fact of high capacity NMH battery patents...

[greyforest]

Yep, just like the conspiracy theory of the 100 MPG carburetor for the 2 ton cars of the 60's.

Are you saying that oil companies don't routinely try to stifle innovations that would hurt their industry?

You of all people should know how the free market operates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_Corporation#NiMH_battery_technology_for_au tomobiles

[boutons_deux]

On July 28, 2009, Automotive News reported that Cobasys would be bought from Chevron and Energy Conversion Devices by battery maker SB LiMotive, a joint venture of Bosch and Samsung.[21] At the time of the 2009 Cobasys sale, control of NiMH battery technology transferred back to ECD Ovonics.[22] In October 2009, ECD Ovonics announced that their next-generation NiMH batteries will provide specific energy and power that are comparable to those of lithium ion batteries at a cost that is significantly lower than the cost of lithium ion batteries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batter ies

http://www.energyconversiondevices.com/battery.php

[Wild Cobra]

Or the fact of high capacity NMH battery patents...
I'm only pointing out that there are conspiracy theories that are clearly laughable. Of course energy corporation will invest in alternate energy. That's second nature.

[RandomGuy]

Here is another oldy but goody thread. Gawd I love the "subscribe" feature.

Updates, and you nerds should read them, as they are moving forward a year later.


Imagine if an American research team developed a new internal combustion engine three to four times better at burning the fuel that's needed for a power generation system in a hybrid car, and was considerably smaller than the heavy, 1,000-pound powertrain assembly in today's cars?

What if such a novel engine could be connected, for example, to Nissan's efficient, relatively low-cost 24 kilowatt battery that runs the hybrid LEAF—a battery that surprised experts when its manufacturing cost was much lower than anyone had predicted?

What if such an engine allowed Detroit carmakers—or Japanese carmakers—to save quite a bit of money because such a small engine would reduce the total weight of the car by up to 20 percent? What if those savings were then passed on to consumers? What if this engine allowed a hybrid electric-gas vehicle to go much further on a single tank of gas?

Later this year, an engineering research team led by Dr. Norbert Mueller, an associate professor at Michigan State University's college of engineering, plans to have just an engine generating power through a 25-kilowatt battery, which will be capable of driving a full-size hybrid electric-gas vehicle.

Combine this with the new battery technology that makes existing batteries lighter and cheaper.
(Edit--the batteries refenced here were from Envia, and they are mentioned in another thread recently, as well as the article linked in the post below this one-RG)



And because it's small—Mueller can hold the bench prototype engine in just one hand—it would, in fact, be relatively easy to manufacture and reduce the overall weight of a car by as much as 1,000 pounds, enabling hybrid vehicles to be 20 percent lighter and 30 percent less expensive.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2012/02/23/wave-disk-engine-could-be-new-hybrid-powerplant (blog from Dec 2012)

Making the batteries alone lighter will pull along hybrid mileage itself.

Factoring this in, along with the possibility of directly manufacturing power from the tech itself.

I see some game changing things for cars within 10 years, possibly as soon as 5.

If this kind of tech would also lend itself to miniturization, we could very well see cheap fuel cells.

[RandomGuy]

These ideas are a few of the dozens being funded by the Obama administration as part of a little-known program that encourages "high risk, high value" energy innovation that swings for the fences.

They were spotlighted in a recent, gee-whiz showcase, complete with high-powered lasers and microscopic transmitters, hosted near Washington, D.C., by the Department of Energy's ARPA-E (Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy). The program is modeled after the Defense Department's larger, decades-old DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), which says it invented the Internet.

STORY: Tenn. professor cruises cross-country on 2.15 gallons of gas
Yet the third annual Energy Innovation Summit came amid debate about the federal government's role in funding clean technology. Critics, including many Republicans, cite the DOE's half-billion-dollar loan guarantee to bankrupt solar manufacturer Solyndra and its $10 million L Prize last August to Philips Lighting for developing an "affordable," efficient, made-in-America LED light bulb — that costs $50.

"The government does not have a good track record of funding research for commercial development," says David Kreutzer, an energy economist at the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank. He says it should fund only basic research and leave more commercial ideas to venture capitalists. If something is promising enough, such as advanced batteries, he says, the marketplace will take it.

Not necessarily so, ARPA-E's supporters say. Energy Secretary Steven Chu says the program, established by a bipartisan 2007 law, gives small, two- to three-year grants so researchers can get over the development hump and attract private funding.

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/environment/story/2012-02-29/arpa-e-energy-innovation-summit/53490924/1

Heh. I am willing to accept a Solyndra or two, if the return is a paradigm shift on a scale unimagined just 10 years ago.

Yeah, I went there.

[CubanMustGo]

n/m, I misread the original article as '09 when it was '11. Hope it works.

[DarrinS]

Maybe this will help those anemic Chevy Volt sales.

[Drachen]

Maybe this will help those anemic Chevy Volt sales.

hopefully! This will increase the range AND lower the cost of the vehicle, so I don't see why not. Chevy should be applauded though for beginning to build a market segment. Hopefully this will be their prius.

[CosmicCowboy]

I was thinking that the way to make hybrids practical would be to have a turbine type motor coupled directly to a generator that fired on demand as the batteries drained. Sounds like this could be the next step. Bet it's a high RPM noisy little bitch.

[Drachen]

I was thinking that the way to make hybrids practical would be to have a turbine type motor coupled directly to a generator that fired on demand as the batteries drained. Sounds like this could be the next step. Bet it's a high RPM noisy little bitch.

it is small enough that they could cheaply pack a large amount of soundproofing and still have a substantially lighter car

[boutons_deux]

Maybe this will help those anemic Chevy Volt sales.

Fox's Vold slander campaign, obviously to detract from Obama's success in saving GM, has worked. Volt sales are way down.

Fox/Repugs don't care who or what they hurt or destroy, It's All Destructive Politics, All The Time.

[CosmicCowboy]

Think outside a car, this is an *electric generator*.

Your standard back up generator just got obsolete as well.

This thing could have some pretty profound implications that reach far beyond the hood of your car.

For one thing, think about the people who make the parts for the cooling systems for cars now, etc, etc.

Not necessarily a bad thing that those parts have been outsourced to foreigners.


I can't help but think about utility-scale generators as well. From what I understand you get a good chunk of energy loss going from one phase of energy to another. Current generators commonly burn something and use that thermal energy to boil water to produce steam to turn electric turbines (thermal --> electricity). If it suddenly makes economic sense to simply burn the fuel directly, that makes things like oil/gas electrical generation a helluva lot cheaper. The actual economics of such a thing would be interesting to get a sense of.

It would also have a profound implication in developing countries with unreliable power grids that currently get a lot of their power from individual gas generators.

No shit. It would make the current power plants obsolete. An efficient local 25KW generator (running on cheap natural gas) can power 4+ average houses during peak summertime A/C loads in Texas.

[Drachen]

Fox's Vold slander campaign, obviously to detract from Obama's success in saving GM, has worked. Volt sales are way down.

Fox/Repugs don't care who or what they hurt or destroy, It's All Destructive Politics, All The Time.

This is BS boutons. Fox viewers were not going to buy Volts anyway.

[CosmicCowboy]

It seems very strange that the LAST mention of this thing on any internet link is a year old, especially since the prototype was supposed to be ready three months ago. Whats up with that?

[Drachen]

No shit. It would make the current power plants obsolete. An efficient local 25KW generator (running on cheap natural gas) can power 4+ average houses during peak summertime A/C loads in Texas.

Really? Ok, this thing just got a whole lot cooler.

[TDMVPDPOY]

they should find a way to get the same mileage on little use of oil...fkn nobody gives a shit how m uch emissions a car makes....everyone is more concern with can they afford to pay at the pump

[hater]

wake me up when this is possible:

3HYoq6vIVXc

[Drachen]

they should find a way to get the same mileage on little use of oil...fkn nobody gives a shit how m uch emissions a car makes....everyone is more concern with can they afford to pay at the pump

(oil is used to make gasoline, a more efficient engine = little use of oil)

Plus, as was said above, run it on natgas.

[CubanMustGo]

No shit. It would make the current power plants obsolete. An efficient local 25KW generator (running on cheap natural gas) can power 4+ average houses during peak summertime A/C loads in Texas.

Since scaling up seems to be an issue, I'd be thrilled to have a personal 5KW generator.

[TDMVPDPOY]

(oil is used to make gasoline, a more efficient engine = little use of oil)

Plus, as was said above, run it on natgas.

gas as in LPG? that shit is steadily going up in price also

even a country like australia who dugs that shit up is chargin its people more than what the arab oil producing nation charges its people per litre for petrol....fkn pathetic

[TeyshaBlue]

gas as in LPG? that shit is steadily going up in price also

even a country like australia who dugs that shit up is chargin its people more than what the arab oil producing nation charges its people per litre for petrol....fkn pathetic

CNG...different animal than LPG.

[Drachen]

CNG...different animal than LPG.

thank you...

Here you go TDMVP

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/ng/hist/n9190us3m.htm

[RandomGuy]

It seems very strange that the LAST mention of this thing on any internet link is a year old, especially since the prototype was supposed to be ready three months ago. Whats up with that?

They did their academic paper in early 2011, and said that they would have some better prototypes by the end of 2012.

I saw some chatter about 2013 for a bigger rollout.

Nothing in the news.

This is interesting to me, I might contact the man directly. He appears to be German, so I have an ice-breaker already. :)

[Drachen]

They did their academic paper in early 2011, and said that they would have some better prototypes by the end of 2012.

I saw some chatter about 2013 for a bigger rollout.

Nothing in the news.

This is interesting to me, I might contact the man directly. He appears to be German, so I have an ice-breaker already. :)

That's right, you speak german, no?

RG: I have been interested in this (theoretically) ever since I studied physics at the Gymnasium. After the Abitur, I came to America....

[RandomGuy]

CNG...different animal than LPG.

Oddly enough, I would imagine that propane would be a good alternative for this kind of engine as well.

Given that the US will likely become a large exporter of it after the LNG terminal in Louisiana gets built.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/blackstone-enters-into-an-arrangement-for-2b-equity-investment-for-the-sabine-pass-liquefaction-project-2012-02-27


That will likely have a greater impact on gas prices in the short term. Some trucks can be rigged to run on propane and do now, they will become more competitive with gasoline/diesel, and further reduce demand.

China, with its gasoline subsidies, is building up its economy to be much more dependent on oil than the US.

This type of engine would also find uses in places other than cars, if it is as efficient as they say it is.

Trains, ships, etc.

Modern trains are essentially huge diesel generators and power their wheels using electric motors.

Scale up the tech in the OP to that size, and you have just cut fuel costs for trains.

Scale it up to run a turboprop plane? I don't know.

Hell, I will definitely be calling the good professor. This is fascinating.

[DarrinS]

The future is here

0R3kBjptvRQ

rAqPMJFaEdY

[RandomGuy]

That's right, you speak german, no?

RG: I have been interested in this (theoretically) ever since I studied physics at the Gymnasium. After the Abitur, I came to America....

I hold a degree in Germanic arts from UT at Austin.

Ich uebe, wenn ich kann, aber vesgesse mehr als ich moechte.

(I practice, when I kann, but forget more than I would like to)

Oddly enough the English word order works there too. Heh German a language that verbs at the end to put likes. A nation of Yodas, you should imagine, heh.

[Drachen]

I hold a degree in Germanic arts from UT at Austin.

Ich uebe, wenn ich kann, aber vesgesse mehr als ich moechtet.

Ja ich war fliessent, aber ueben kann ich nicht oft. Deswegen habe ich mein Deutsch verlernt.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hmmmm...doing the math.

Peak summertime load for an average house in the summertime should be about 4000kwh a month...your mileage may vary.

Natural gas costs (at the house) currently .701 per hundred cubic foot or rule of thumb 100,000 BTU.

At 60% efficiency 100 cu ft foot would input 60,000 btu

there are 3,412 BTU per KW.

So 100 cu ft gas could potentially generate 17.5 kw of electricity (obviously with some generator loss)

4000kwh per month / 17.5 kw = 229 cu ft month X .701 or $160 a month in natural gas compared to $340 (@ .085 per kwh CPS rate) of CPS generated electricity

Sounds like it beats the shit out of PV panels even with the rebates and tax credits (of course it's not "renewable")

[Drachen]

Hmmmm...doing the math.

Peak summertime load for an average house in the summertime should be about 4000kwh a month...your mileage may vary.

Natural gas costs (at the house) currently .701 per hundred cubic foot or rule of thumb 100,000 BTU.

At 60% efficiency 100 cu ft foot would input 60,000 btu

there are 3,412 BTU per KW.

So 100 cu ft gas could potentially generate 17.5 kw of electricity (obviously with some generator loss)

4000kwh per month / 17.5 kw = 229 cu ft month X .701 or $160 a month in natural gas compared to $340 (@ .085 per kwh CPS rate) of CPS generated electricity

Sounds like it beats the shit out of PV panels even with the rebates and tax credits (of course it's not "renewable")

What did you end up finding out about PV as far as cost? It would seem that you would more than the 200 bucks

[CosmicCowboy]

What did you end up finding out about PV as far as cost? It would seem that you would more than the 200 bucks

I'm still looking at it. They are claiming "40 year life on the panels and inverters" with no maintenance though. Guarantee on the panels is 90% production after 20 years. Inverters have 5 year guarantee.

[RandomGuy]

Hmmmm...doing the math.

Peak summertime load for an average house in the summertime should be about 4000kwh a month...your mileage may vary.

Natural gas costs (at the house) currently .701 per hundred cubic foot or rule of thumb 100,000 BTU.

At 60% efficiency 100 cu ft foot would input 60,000 btu

there are 3,412 BTU per KW.

So 100 cu ft gas could potentially generate 17.5 kw of electricity (obviously with some generator loss)

4000kwh per month / 17.5 kw = 229 cu ft month X .701 or $160 a month in natural gas compared to $340 (@ .085 per kwh CPS rate) of CPS generated electricity

Sounds like it beats the shit out of PV panels even with the rebates and tax credits (of course it's not "renewable")

If it can be configured to run on methane, all you need is poop. That is about as renewable as anything, and something I am sure someone with a ranch can get in good supply.

[CosmicCowboy]

What did you end up finding out about PV as far as cost? It would seem that you would more than the 200 bucks

It's still a shitload of money out of pocket. On a 12kwh system at $5 a watt the initial cost would be $60,000 less the $24,000 CPS rebate.

So $36,000 out of pocket and you can take a 30% tax credit on it.

So, after you finally get your tax credits back the out of pocket cost is $25,200 to save $175 a month.

[CosmicCowboy]

If it can be configured to run on methane, all you need is poop. That is about as renewable as anything, and something I am sure someone with a ranch can get in good supply.

Methane is a fucking terribly dirty, corrosive, and wet gas to work with. I have a lot of experience with it working on systems at the SAW's treatment plants trying to use the waste methane to heat the digestors.

[DarrinS]

If it can be configured to run on methane, all you need is poop. That is about as renewable as anything, and something I am sure someone with a ranch can get in good supply.

But

http://www.epa.gov/methane/

Damn. :depressed

[RandomGuy]

I'm still looking at it. They are claiming "40 year life on the panels and inverters" with no maintenance though. Guarantee on the panels is 90% production after 20 years. Inverters have 5 year guarantee.

The panels they first built in the 1960's are still cranking out power.

From what I read, the 2% per year loss that most people assume after about 10 years is probably more severe than will be experienced.

The inverter will wear out before the panels will experience any large loss in capacity.

Since the first panels from the 60's are still cranking out power, no one really knows how long they last, simply by virtue of the fact that it wasn't really widespead, and the panels, with no moving parts, haven't worn out yet.

That is one of the things that I like about PV is that there aren't any moving parts and the panels last a looooong time.

When one burrows into the math, if one assumes a fuctional life of 50 years, PV has some rather clear advantages over other forms of power that require moving turbines. Some hydrogenerators last that long too, but you are limited a bit more as to where you can site them.

[RandomGuy]

Methane is a fucking terribly dirty, corrosive, and wet gas to work with. I have a lot of experience with it working on systems at the SAW's treatment plants trying to use the waste methane to heat the digestors.

Good to know.

They managed to do it for the big Boston project. Saw a thing on Discovery about it. Fascinating state-of-the-art sewage treatment.

[RandomGuy]

But

http://www.epa.gov/methane/

Damn. :depressed

(facepalm)

You did get that I was suggesting capturing methane that was already being produced and using it as fuel right? (thereby preventing the methane from being released in favor of CO2 as a byproduct)

[CosmicCowboy]

I'm having someone send me their calculations on how PV will give me a 7 year payback. One thing they mentioned that I hadn't factored in was the CPS increases their rates 3% a year. That adds up pretty fast over 20 years.

[Drachen]

It's still a shitload of money out of pocket. On a 12kwh system at $5 a watt the initial cost would be $60,000 less the $24,000 CPS rebate.

So $36,000 out of pocket and you can take a 30% tax credit on it.

So, after you finally get your tax credits back the out of pocket cost is $25,200 to save $175 a month.

Ok, I know that a 12 kwh system doesn't necessarily produce that much, but why won't that large of a system take care of all of your power needs (that summer 340 dollar cps bill you referenced above) especially since you referenced 4k per month above.


Incidentally, when I checked into it in late 2009 a 4 Kwh system was 50k (or 16k after tax credits) so that is a pretty dramatic price drop in a short period of time.

[CosmicCowboy]

Good to know.

They managed to do it for the big Boston project. Saw a thing on Discovery about it. Fascinating state-of-the-art sewage treatment.

Hell, I redesigned SAW's system after their engineers totally fucked it up on the original install and trashed $100,000+ of equipment. My redesign is now the pattern they use on all their digestors.

[CosmicCowboy]

Ok, I know that a 12 kwh system doesn't necessarily produce that much, but why won't that large of a system take care of all of your power needs (that summer 340 dollar cps bill you referenced above) especially since you referenced 4k per month above.


Incidentally, when I checked into it in late 2009 a 4 Kwh system was 50k (or 16k after tax credits) so that is a pretty dramatic price drop in a short period of time.

Correction: I said 12kwh system and that is incorrect...it's actually a 12kw system, meaning it will produce 12kw per hour in direct sunlight. In San Antonio we get and average of 5.3 hours of direct sunlight a day (obviously more in the summer and less in the winter) so on average it will produce 12 X 5.3 X 30 or 1908 kwh a month. I picked a 12kw system for my comparisons because my lowest usage is currently November-February (I have gas heat) where I use an average of probably 1200kwh but I'm also planning to add another 1000sf to my house (currently about 3000sf)

[Wild Cobra]

Where's your highly-efficient combustion engine/turbine so we can asses you know what you're talking about?
Did I say it was highly efficient?

I was making a point that scale makes a difference. If this guy's design is using sonic compression, then that may have a very hard time scaling.

I meant to do some searches in the past when you asked, but must have been busy. Still not going to spend much time, but here is the technology I speak of:

MILLIMETER-SCALE, MEMS GAS TURBINE ENGINES (http://users.ntua.gr/rogdemma/MILLIMETER-SCALE,%20MEMS%20GAS%20TURBINE%20ENGINES.pdf)

[Drachen]

Correction: I said 12kwh system and that is incorrect...it's actually a 12kw system, meaning it will produce 12kw per hour in direct sunlight. In San Antonio we get and average of 5.3 hours of direct sunlight a day (obviously more in the summer and less in the winter) so on average it will produce 12 X 5.3 X 30 or 1908 kwh a month. I picked a 12kw system for my comparisons because my lowest usage is currently November-February (I have gas heat) where I use an average of probably 1200kwh but I'm also planning to add another 1000sf to my house (currently about 3000sf)

Ok, sorry, completely missed that too. I have gas heat too so those "winter" bills are great. Just looked at my last bill, and the little graph and it turns out that 1908 kwh a month would actually completely cover every month outside of two months (my house is 2.5k sq ft). I think I will wait another year or so to really look into it.

[CosmicCowboy]

hmmm....doing more research the rule of thumb is that you get 10 watts per square foot of panel so I don't have room for 12kw. Looks like 8kw at most is about all I can cram up there on the new roof.

[Drachen]

hmmm....doing more research the rule of thumb is that you get 10 watts per square foot of panel so I don't have room for 12kw. Looks like 8kw at most is about all I can cram up there on the new roof.

LOL, expand your patio for the express purpose of solar panels.

[CosmicCowboy]

LOL, expand your patio for the express purpose of solar panels.

meh...I could probably put another 400 sq. ft on the front of the house too but don't really want to sacrifice the look...

[Wild Cobra]

Looking for more recent material. Haven't had much luck, of course the newest material will be proprietary.

Here are a few interesting articles on the designs:

COMBUSTION TESTS IN THE 6-WAFER STATIC STRUCTURE OF A MICRO
GAS TURBINE ENGINE (http://ventions.com/Publications/Transducers_AM.pdf)

Modeling, Design and Analysis of Micro-Scale Rankine-Based Systems (http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/17764/56526101.pdf?sequence=1)

Experimental Development of the Rotating Subsystem for a Macro Rankine Power System (http://cap.ee.ic.ac.uk/~pdm97/powermems/2005/pdfs/037_Lee.pdf)

Now I don't have a password for this site. The article is February 2011. Anyone?:

A Silicon Microturbopump for a Rankine-Cycle Power Generation Microsystem—Part I: Component and System Design (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5672387)

Anyway, for mm or cm scale development, this is pretty good:

They are integrated to enable the microsystem design by satisfying force and power balance conditions on the rotor. Considering our previous thermodynamic cycle analysis on the Rankine micro power generation system, which is aimed at generating a few watts of electric power for applications in portable electronics or waste energy harvesting, we have designed a centimeter-scale demo turbopump device delivering 4.7 W of turbine mechanical power and 71% of turbopump efficiency in order to demonstrate the effectiveness of the component design models and system design principles.

Now on the lighter side... found this interesting device of the searching. You know those leaks in your house... Plug them with these, and generate power:

CM-SCALE AIR TURBINE AND GENERATOR FOR
ENERGY HARVESTING FROM LOW-SPEED FLOWS (https://workspace.imperial.ac.uk/opticalandsemidev/Public/Publications/C44_cm-scale.pdf)

[Wild Cobra]

They did their academic paper in early 2011, and said that they would have some better prototypes by the end of 2012.


Seriously. Scaling something like that is not an easy task. It uses a sonic wave to detonate the fuel if I recall, which will change in characteristics with the chamber size as you change the scaling.

Anyone who understands waveguide theory can understand how this poses a problem.

[CosmicCowboy]

Seriously. Scaling something like that is not an easy task. It uses a sonic wave to detonate the fuel if I recall, which will change in characteristics with the chamber size as you change the scaling.

Anyone who understands waveguide theory can understand how this poses a problem.

I'm not sure what the scaling issue is? If 33hp is the maximum practical scale per unit then they can just stack them in multiples if more power is required.

Am I missing something?

[Drachen]

I'm not sure what the scaling issue is? If 33hp is the maximum practical scale per unit then they can just stack them in multiples if more power is required.

Am I missing something?

This is kinda what I was thinking. Especially since they are relatively small.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GmlJ2al7e_k/SwQR9UesESI/AAAAAAAAHXU/0eipHBvjNCg/s1600/Kawasaki+Dragster+Motorcycle.JPG

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii286/CANTON57/img339.jpg

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not sure what the scaling issue is? If 33hp is the maximum practical scale per unit then they can just stack them in multiples if more power is required.

Am I missing something?
That's one way of doing it, but then you have twice as many components when one larger one is only slightly more money. I'm referring to the scaling of physical size.

[RandomGuy]

hmmm....doing more research the rule of thumb is that you get 10 watts per square foot of panel so I don't have room for 12kw. Looks like 8kw at most is about all I can cram up there on the new roof.

http://solarbythewatt.com/2009/04/19/physical-area-efficiency-of-solar-photovoltaic-panels-or-watt-per-square-foot/

Interesting bit.

NREL has a good starting point that gives an equation.

http://www.nrel.gov/rredc/pvwatts/changing_parameters.html

If space is more of a limiting factor than cost, you can get panels that are 50% more efficient per unit area or higher.

http://howsolarworks.1bog.org/sunpower-solar-panels/


SunPower makes the most efficient solar panels on the market. That means that if you put a SunPower panel side by side with another panel of the same size, the SunPower panel will convert much more sunlight into electricity that you can use. A typical solar panel may have an efficiency between 11-15%, but SunPower makes panels with 18% and even 19% efficiency.

I imagine these are more expensive.

As time goes by, output per square foot has gone up, and will likely continue to do so. FWIW.

You can get really cheap per watt stuff, but it takes up a LOT of space. You can get stuff that doesn't take up space, but it is expensive per watt. It is a trade-off.

Personally, I kind of wonder what effect on cooling bills putting a layer of PV cells between the sun and the roof has. This would provide a cooling effect from the shade alone. Add in an attic fan to keep the attic cooler, and it might have an add-on effect in reducing summer time power needs, not insubstantial in Texas in July.