The Spurs leading scorer: Tony or Manu ?

[analyzed]

I can't remember a time when the leading scorer of the team has yet to be decided so late in the season (2 games) . Both are avg 17.6.

With that in mind who is more deserving to be voted into the all NBA team (2nd or 3rd team)

[admiralsnackbar]

I can't remember a time when the leading scorer of the team has yet to be decided so late in the season (2 games) . Both are avg 17.6.

With that in mind who is more deserving to be voted into the all NBA team (2nd or 3rd team)
When two players are producing with such parity, I have trouble thinking either one is more deserving than the other.

I would instead tend to think any discussion of where (or if) either makes an all-NBA team would ultimately have more to do with their competition on other teams. While both are huge parts of this teams success, there are talented guards on lesser teams who have to produce more to keep the Ws coming in, and I would think such players would be more "deserving" of individual recognition because of that.

[jesterbobman]

I think both are close to being worthy of discussion, but neither are locks. Rose, Paul, Westbrook, Wade and Bryant all seem like they should be members of those teams, while I doubt Manu makes it as a SF(If they stretch criteria) ahead of LeBron or Durant. Leaves 1 Guard spot left for Manu, TP, Williams Nash... I think Manu and/or Parker deserve a spot, but I think the fact that there is such a Balance of scoring and none of the big 3 do a ton of heaving lifting(I know, because they don't have to) I don't think both of them make an All-NBA team. I could see Duncan getting a career achievement award as a Big man.

[Solid D]

While Manu is actually the leading scorer (17.63 ppg and more total points by virtue of his number of made FTs) both Manu and Tony are worthy of being selected All-NBA. Tony's APG are certainly higher (6.6). If you look at PER, Tim (22.0), Manu (21.8) and Tony (20.5) are all ranked high and should be All-NBA worthy.

[igruex]

While Manu is actually the leading scorer (17.63 ppg and more total points by virtue of his number of made FTs) both Manu and Tony are worthy of being selected All-NBA. Tony's APG are certainly higher (6.6). If you look at PER, Tim (22.0), Manu (21.8) and Tony (20.5) are all ranked high and should be All-NBA worthy.

They'll be All-NBA, no doubt about it.

[ducks]

tony points per game would go up 5-6 if he got the calls before the 2 minutes of the game that manu gets

[YODA]

Here is some interesting stats on CHAMPIONSHIP teams with top scorer less then 20 ppg.

currently, our top scorers are Manu at 17.6 and TP at 17.6 PPG
If trend continued for last 2 games , we would have the team with the lowest Avg for a top scorer....or tied.

since 1970, there have only been 5 teams with top scorers averaging less then 20 ppg. they are, from lowest

1. 2003-04 Detroit Pistons -- Hamilton 17.6 To me, this is the most impressive of them all. 17.6 points a game is just amazing. One of the best TEAMS to ever play together.
2. 1989-90 Detroit Pistons --Thomas 18.4
3. 1988-89 Detroit Pistons --Dantley 18.4
4. 2007-08 Boston Celtics -- Pierce- 19.6
5.1977-78 Washington Bullets -- Hayes 19.7

Interesting that top 3 under 20 were all Pistons too.

Here is the breakdown since 1970

YEAR..... CHAMPION --top Scorer and Avg
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers --Kobe 27.00
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers --Kobe 26.8
2007-08 Boston Celtics -- Pierce- 19.6
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs --Duncan 20.00
2005-06 Miami Heat -- Wade 27.2
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs--Duncan 20.3
2003-04 Detroit Pistons -- Hamilton 17.6
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs--Duncan 23.3
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers --Oneal 27.2
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers -- Oneal 28.7
8.71999-00 Los Angeles Lakers --Oneal 29.7
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs -- Duncan 21.7
1997-98 Chicago Bulls -Jordan 2
1996-97 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 29.6
1995-96 Chicago Bulls -- Jordan 30.4
1994-95 Houston Rockets --Hakeem 27.8
1993-94 Houston Rockets --Hakeem 24.00
1992-93 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 32.6
1991-92 Chicago Bulls-- Jordan 30.10
1990-91 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 31.50
1989-90 Detroit Pistons --Thomas 18.4
1988-89 Detroit Pistons --Dantley 18.4
1987-88 Los Angeles --Johnson 23.9
1986-87 Los Angeles -- Scott 21.7
1985-86 Boston Celtics -- Bird 25.8
1984-85 Los Angeles Lakers--Kareem 22.00
1983-84 Boston Celtics -- Bird 24.2
1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers--Malone 24.5
1981-82 Los Angeles Lakers --Kareem 23.9
1980-81 Boston Celtics -- Bird 21.2
1979-80 Los Angeles Lakers -- Kareem 24.8
1978-79 Seattle SuperSonics-- Williams 19.2
1977-78 Washington Bullets -- Hayes 19.7
1976-77 Portland Trail Blazers-- Lucas 20.2
1975-76 Boston Celtics -- cowens 19.00
1974-75 Golden State Warriors --Berry 30.6
1973-74 Boston Celtics -- Havelcek 22.6
1972-73 New York Knicks --Frazier 21.1
1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers -- Goodwich 25.9
1970-71 Milwaukee Bucks -- Kareem 31.4
1969-70 New York Knicks -- Reed 21.7

[HarlemHeat37]

That list obviously does not bode well for the Spurs, so hopefully some history is made..of those modern era teams that won titles with players that scored less than 20 PPG, they were all top 3 defensive teams..

Winning a title as an offensive team, without a superstar player, has yet to be done in the NBA..although, to be fair, this Spurs team is very different than most teams..

[Chieflion]

Number 3 for the 1988-1989 Pistons should not be Adrian Dantley. It should be Isiah Thomas again with an average of 18.2, which would rank them number 2. Dantley was traded in a mid-season deal and thus did not win the championship with the Pistons. It is interesting to see the Detroit Pistons having 3 of those 5 teams, really says a lot about their team tradition.

[admiralsnackbar]

That list obviously does not bode well for the Spurs, so hopefully some history is made..of those modern era teams that won titles with players that scored less than 20 PPG, they were all top 3 defensive teams..

Winning a title as an offensive team, without a superstar player, has yet to be done in the NBA..although, to be fair, this Spurs team is very different than most teams..

The stats seem to be misleading us to argue that Manu and Tony score about the same in each game, when it is more often the case that one of them blows up in a certain match, the other in the next.

So while the game plan is obviously to try to move the ball and involve a bench of players who are each capable of scoring 10-20 points apiece, both Manu and Tony (and maybe Timmy here and there) have the skill to "will" victories with big performances. If we lose, I doubt it will be because those guys aren't scoring in the 20 and 30ss as much as because of our dismal defense.

Also, just because defensive basketball = less possessions = less points doesn't mean that the low-scoring high-scorers on the bolded squads weren't on teams that were balanced offensive threats any more than that it does that high-scoring players weren't on defensive teams.

[YODA]

That list obviously does not bode well for the Spurs, so hopefully some history is made..of those modern era teams that won titles with players that scored less than 20 PPG, they were all top 3 defensive teams..

Winning a title as an offensive team, without a superstar player, has yet to be done in the NBA..although, to be fair, this Spurs team is very different than most teams..

Will be amazing is Spurs can be only team with a avg of less then 17.6. Just amazing at all to win a championship with no 20 point scorer.

[Solid D]

Here is some interesting stats on CHAMPIONSHIP teams with top scorer less then 20 ppg.

currently, our top scorers are Manu at 17.6 and TP at 17.6 PPG
If trend continued for last 2 games , we would have the team with the lowest Avg for a top scorer....or tied.

since 1970, there have only been 5 teams with top scorers averaging less then 20 ppg. they are, from lowest

1. 2003-04 Detroit Pistons -- Hamilton 17.6 To me, this is the most impressive of them all. 17.6 points a game is just amazing. One of the best TEAMS to ever play together.
2. 1989-90 Detroit Pistons --Thomas 18.4
3. 1988-89 Detroit Pistons --Dantley 18.4
4. 2007-08 Boston Celtics -- Pierce- 19.6
5.1977-78 Washington Bullets -- Hayes 19.7

Interesting that top 3 under 20 were all Pistons too.

Here is the breakdown since 1970

YEAR..... CHAMPION --top Scorer and Avg
2009-10 Los Angeles Lakers --Kobe 27.00
2008-09 Los Angeles Lakers --Kobe 26.8
2007-08 Boston Celtics -- Pierce- 19.6
2006-07 San Antonio Spurs --Duncan 20.00
2005-06 Miami Heat -- Wade 27.2
2004-05 San Antonio Spurs--Duncan 20.3
2003-04 Detroit Pistons -- Hamilton 17.6
2002-03 San Antonio Spurs--Duncan 23.3
2001-02 Los Angeles Lakers --Oneal 27.2
2000-01 Los Angeles Lakers -- Oneal 28.7
8.71999-00 Los Angeles Lakers --Oneal 29.7
1998-99 San Antonio Spurs -- Duncan 21.7
1997-98 Chicago Bulls -Jordan 2
1996-97 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 29.6
1995-96 Chicago Bulls -- Jordan 30.4
1994-95 Houston Rockets --Hakeem 27.8
1993-94 Houston Rockets --Hakeem 24.00
1992-93 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 32.6
1991-92 Chicago Bulls-- Jordan 30.10
1990-91 Chicago Bulls --Jordan 31.50
1989-90 Detroit Pistons --Thomas 18.4
1988-89 Detroit Pistons --Dantley 18.4
1987-88 Los Angeles --Johnson 23.9
1986-87 Los Angeles -- Scott 21.7
1985-86 Boston Celtics -- Bird 25.8
1984-85 Los Angeles Lakers--Kareem 22.00
1983-84 Boston Celtics -- Bird 24.2
1982-83 Philadelphia 76ers--Malone 24.5
1981-82 Los Angeles Lakers --Kareem 23.9
1980-81 Boston Celtics -- Bird 21.2
1979-80 Los Angeles Lakers -- Kareem 24.8
1978-79 Seattle SuperSonics-- Williams 19.2
1977-78 Washington Bullets -- Hayes 19.7
1976-77 Portland Trail Blazers-- Lucas 20.2
1975-76 Boston Celtics -- cowens 19.00
1974-75 Golden State Warriors --Berry 30.6
1973-74 Boston Celtics -- Havelcek 22.6
1972-73 New York Knicks --Frazier 21.1
1971-72 Los Angeles Lakers -- Goodwich 25.9
1970-71 Milwaukee Bucks -- Kareem 31.4
1969-70 New York Knicks -- Reed 21.7

You have to also look at minutes/game. The Big 3 have Manu at 30.7 mpg, Tony at 32.5 mpg and Tim is at 28.3 mpg. Pop is limiting their minutes, yet they have won 61 games so far.

2003-04 Pistons R. Hamilton 17.6 ppg in 35.5 mpg, C. Billups 16.9 ppg in 35.4 mpg

1988-89 Pistons I. Thomas 18.2 ppg in 36.6 mpg, J. Dumars 17.2 ppg in 34.9 mpg

1989-90 Pistons I. Thomas 18.4 ppg in 37.0 mpg, J. Dumars 17.8 ppg in 34.4 mpg

2007-08 Celtics P. Pierce 19.6 ppg in 35.9 mpg, K. Garnett 18.8 ppg in 32.8 mpg

1977-78 Bullets E. Hayes 19.7 ppg in 40.1 mpg, B. Dandridge 19.3 ppg in 37.0 mpg

[YODA]

You have to also look at minutes/game. The Big 3 have Manu at 30.7 mpg, Tony at 32.5 mpg and Tim is at 28.3 mpg. Pop is limiting their minutes, yet they have won 61 games so far.

2003-04 Pistons R. Hamilton 17.6 ppg in 35.5 mpg, C. Billups 16.9 ppg in 35.4 mpg

1988-89 Pistons I. Thomas 18.2 ppg in 36.6 mpg, J. Dumars 17.2 ppg in 34.9 mpg

1989-90 Pistons I. Thomas 18.4 ppg in 37.0 mpg, J. Dumars 17.8 ppg in 34.4 mpg

2007-08 Celtics P. Pierce 19.6 ppg in 35.9 mpg, K. Garnett 18.8 ppg in 32.8 mpg

1977-78 Bullets E. Hayes 19.7 ppg in 40.1 mpg, B. Dandridge 19.3 ppg in 37.0 mpg

Very good point and point taken. Avg minutes for Manu and TP would be alot lower then average for minutes played then any other championship team. Makes you wonder what TP and Manu could do at 35+ min a game.
Its still a facinating fact though about having 17.6 scored as the highest on team.

[duncan228]

Parker beats Ginobili as Spurs' top scorer (http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2011/04/15/parker-beats-ginobili-as-spurs-top-scorer/)
Jeff McDonald

...Parker finished averaging 17.5 points per game, a minuscule 0.1 ahead of Ginobili, pacing the Spurs in scoring for the third time in his career.

It marks the lowest team-leading scoring average in franchise history, remarkable in a season in which the Spurs set a Gregg Popovich-era high by averaging 103.7 points.

“That says I have a very coachable team, a very unselfish team that doesn't really give a damn about anything except the bottom line, which is winning and losing,” Popovich said.

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2011/04/15/parker-beats-ginobili-as-spurs-top-scorer/

[it's me]

Manu's injury fucked up his number the very last game lol