Is Ashley Judd right about hip-hop and its 'rape culture?'

[ididnotnothat]

The past week has seen a firestorm of controversy aimed squarely at actress Ashley Judd over excerpts from her new memoir that attacks Snoop Dogg, P. Diddy, and hip hop as a whole for its misogynistic lyrics.

Judd managed to paint “most” of rap music with a broad brush, saying the following: 



http://www.examiner.com/african-american-entertainment-in-national/is-ashley-judd-right-about-hip-hop-and-its-rape-culture

“As far as I'm concerned, most rap and hip-hop music – with its rape culture and insanely abusive lyrics and depictions of girls and women as 'ho's' – is the contemporary soundtrack of misogyny."

Judd has since clarified her remarks. Speaking exclusively to Russell Simmons via Global Grind, Judd had this to say:

“...What I’m being accused of is condemning rap and hip-hop as a whole, and the whole community and when they say community, they mean the fans, and African-Americans, it’s become so generalized. My intention was to take a stand to say the elements that are misogynistic and treat girls and women in a hyper-sexualized way are inappropriate. The male dominance that is displayed, and the reinforcement of girls' and women value and identify as primarily sexual, is not helpful in any artistic expression, in any cultural form, whether its country music or in television story lines.”

I can understand this coming from a fine looking woman like Ashley.

[BlackSwordsMan]

yes rap rapes my ears everytime I listen to that shit

[tp2021]

Ho better shut her trap and make my money

[Kermit]

Speaking of hip hop, did anyone watch the East St. Louis brawl? Quality stuff.

YErCm55IK0A

[ohmwrecker]

She's right, but it's like trying to blame video games for violence or heavy metal for satanism . . . people are just stupid. There's no explanation necessary.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Its complete and utter truth.

Get the fuck out of here with the whole "when we say "ho" we mean sister" bullshit! I once saw a documentary where Tupac was trying to explain that shit. Complete and utter bullshit and I respect the man.

[Fpoonsie]

The guy in that freeze frame was just "blind-sidin' niggas" left and right.

Jesus.

[Stringer_Bell]

Miss Judd just trippin' cuz age is catching up with her and she's gotta keep herself in the limelight. She ignores the truth in a lot of tracks, bitches are ratchet thirsty and become dependents of the state AND men instead of getting out and working...

sgR4jYqjpOs

[benefactor]

She's getting too old to get naked in movies anymore...so she's find some other way to get attention.

[TDMVPDPOY]

so where are the black sisters backin her up? if not then they dont mind being called Hos...

[AmericanPsycho]

I'd still get naked with her any day of the week.

[703 Spurz]

I'd hit it

[Wild Cobra]

Well, I haven't heard much Hip-Hop, but my impression is it's for players and skanks, or those who relish in such.

[admiralsnackbar]

She's right, but it's like trying to blame video games for violence or heavy metal for satanism . . . people are just stupid. There's no explanation necessary.

Totally agree, but would go so far as to say the violence, satanism, and mysogyny are so profoundly entrenched and played-out in their respective medium that the ubiquity/extremity of these qualities often comes off as self-parody, if it isn't actually that out-right (like, say, ODB).

Wonder if she talks about her family's damnable contributions to a genre that promotes alcoholism, suicide, infidelity, drug abuse, high-risk animal mounting, and Taiwanese shirts made from the Texas flag!:lol

[CuckingFunt]

I think it's pretty hard to deny that there is a lot of misogyny within rap and hip-hop lyrics. However, I think it's foolish to generalize so broadly as to ignore the fact that there are a number of artists/styles within hip-hop that aren't misogynistic and aren't just about bitches and hoes.

Additionally, I think it's equally foolish to act as if misogyny is limited to hip-hop culture. I know that I've mentioned it here before in other contexts, but I have noticed in recent years that violence against women has become much more present in numerous facets of our culture. By singling out and generalizing a specific community in her comments, she makes it something that "they" do, but that "we" don't, which I find incredibly problematic.

[ohmwrecker]

Totally agree, but would go so far as to say the violence, satanism, and mysogyny are so profoundly entrenched and played-out in their respective medium that the ubiquity/extremity of these qualities often comes off as self-parody, if it isn't actually that out-right (like, say, ODB).

Wonder if she talks about her family's damnable contributions to a genre that promotes alcoholism, suicide, infidelity, drug abuse, high-risk animal mounting, and Taiwanese shirts made from the Texas flag!:lol

Art and culture reflect society. Sometimes it transcends that reflection and shows us our potential, or provides inspiration. More often than not, it settles on the lowest common denominator. Especially when commerce is the motivating factor.

[mavsfan1000]

I'd tap that ho.

[boutons_deux]

"there is a lot of misogyny within rap and hip-hop lyrics"

A lot of misogyny from "Christian" Taliban/supremacists.

[LnGrrrR]

Is the sky blue?

[LnGrrrR]

Rap, on the whole, has more misogyny than other strands of music that are played on mainstream radio today. Heck, in the past two years, I can think of at least 5 songs off the top of my head that talk about getting a chick drunk to sleep with her. What about all the "Let me take you home" rap songs? Etc etc.

[LnGrrrR]

Additionally, I think it's equally foolish to act as if misogyny is limited to hip-hop culture. I know that I've mentioned it here before in other contexts, but I have noticed in recent years that violence against women has become much more present in numerous facets of our culture. By singling out and generalizing a specific community in her comments, she makes it something that "they" do, but that "we" don't, which I find incredibly problematic.

Eh, if the shoe fits...

Let's face it, rap not only tolerates misogyny, but promotes it. How many other genres do that? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

It may not be politically correct, but if it can generate real discussion about the message that mainstream hiphop is sending, then it's worthwhile.

[monosylab1k]

If women stopped actin like hoes then they wouldn't get called such.

tbh most rappers have never made a statement like "all girls are bitches and/or hoes".....generally they're talking about a specific bitch/ho. Just because one song by her fat sister talks about a dirty cheating man, does that mean all country music stereotypes all men?

[monosylab1k]

ic7KH1PpbMY

:tu i'd agree with this song. Now if it was "all women ain't shit but hoes and tricks" then i'd have a problem. but it doesn't.

[I. Hustle]

I'd smash.

[mavsfan1000]

JklC61iuIN4

[monosylab1k]

JklC61iuIN4

:tu

tbh anyone who thinks that song promotes violence against women is stupid. It's promoting violence against a woman, Kim Mathers. Not that I approve of that either.

[Stringer_Bell]

ic7KH1PpbMY

:tu i'd agree with this song. Now if it was "all women ain't shit but hoes and tricks" then i'd have a problem. but it doesn't.


Some women are bitches.
All bitches are hoes and tricks.
Therefore, some women are hoes and tricks.

Ashley Judd obviously doesn't philosophize.

[CubanSucks]

only thing bothering me is how fast she's backed off her comments. Typical fucking Hollywood coward PC bullshit

[admiralsnackbar]

At the end of the day, the artists you're exposed to are the same ones who are selling records, and we all know the taste-makers record labels market to may not even be in HS yet.

When Ohm brought up Satanism in metal I thought it made perfect sense to correlate that with gangsta misogyny in hip-hop because both are vectors for... what do we want to call it? Titillation? Neither seem intimidating or stimulating now, but like any arms race, there was a reason they began (ie, they sold shitloads of records to fascinated suburbanite pre-teens), and like any arms race, they've led to absurdity and oversaturation.

I mean in just a matter of a few years we went from Kurtis Blow's goofy shit to Run DMC's geeky, issue-oriented debut, to LL Cool J's LL-Cool-J-oriented debut (including the first misogynistic rap I think I ever heard: Dear Yvette).

Then Run DMC came back with Raising Hell and lo and behold, they're were now comedian superstars who fucked a lot of girls and liked to brag, just like... LL. So LL releases Bigger and Deffer, and that's pretty much the end of Run DMC's relevance. And LL's for that matter -- I Need Love made him rich as shit, but it killed his street-cred.

So suburbia moved on to the more skreet, more gangsta, more confident, more misogynistic Ice-T, who is then usurped by the even more ridiculous N.W.A., leading to 2 Live Crew jumps the misogyny shark, makes a trillion dollars clowning themselves, then the gangsta era blows up and... blah blah blah.

If it isn't just financially-driven content-escalation, it sure fuckin' looks like it, no?

[MannyIsGod]

Eh, if the shoe fits...

Let's face it, rap not only tolerates misogyny, but promotes it. How many other genres do that? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

It may not be politically correct, but if it can generate real discussion about the message that mainstream hiphop is sending, then it's worthwhile.

You really think mysogny isn't promoted by rock just as much? For one, the idea of groupies didn't start at rap concerts. Second I can name you bands that are just as bad. Sup rolling stones, nickelback and buckcherry.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, who the fuck thinks Ashley Judd is going to change minds of rappers? If you want to speak out on something, you should think about whether or not you're going to do some good or actually make it worse.

I'm going to tell you right now, Ashely Judd voicing her opinion on this subject isn't going to do a damn bit of good and its probably likely to make it worse.

[MannyIsGod]

Did Ashley Judd say a damn thing about misogyny in rock and punk? If not then she should just keep her mouth shut because all you're doing is giving people a reason to pull the race card. Rich white woman is offend by misogyny in rap while she rolls in her benz listening to classic rock.

[LnGrrrR]

You really think mysogny isn't promoted by rock just as much? For one, the idea of groupies didn't start at rap concerts. Second I can name you bands that are just as bad. Sup rolling stones, nickelback and buckcherry.

Of the three you mentioned, only Nickelback gets relatively heavy airplay, and most of the songs are pop-ish.

Sure, rock has its fair share of misogyny. But I don't see it treated as casually as it does in many rap songs. (I'm distinguishing here between the lifestyle of a musical performer, and the lyrics of his songs. Musical artists from all walks probably engage in misogyny, but may not reflect it in their song lyrics.)

[Stringer_Bell]

Did Ashley Judd say a damn thing about misogyny in rock and punk? If not then she should just keep her mouth shut because all you're doing is giving people a reason to pull the race card. Rich white woman is offend by misogyny in rap while she rolls in her benz listening to classic rock.

Hells yeah, brah! To quote Nickelback, Ashley Judd would look so much cuter with something in her mouth!

gCYcpU-80u4

Fuck yea, lemme find a skinny white girl to plow now. \m/

[MannyIsGod]

Wait, the Rolling Stones don't get heavy airplay? WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT? Dude, you're really telling me that rock isn't just as misogynist as rap?

I'm sorry LNGR, but the volume of misogyny in rock is greater than that in rap. There's decades of music for that to be the case, and much if it is still in airplay today. I could counter each and every rap song you posted with those type of lyrics with a rock song with lyrics just as bad.

Also, your dismissal of most of Nickelback's songs being popish as some kind of an excuse is such a crock. How many pop songs do you have to put out before you're allowed to objectify women and its OK in your eyes?

[MannyIsGod]

There is definitely a lot of misogyny in rap music. I will never deny that. But what really pisses me off is when people act like its a problem in RAP and not in MUSIC.

[LnGrrrR]

Wait, the Rolling Stones don't get heavy airplay? WHATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT? Dude, you're really telling me that rock isn't just as misogynist as rap?

Rolling Stones get airplay, but what obviously misogynistic song by them gets heavy airplay?


I'm sorry LNGR, but the volume of misogyny in rock is greater than that in rap. There's decades of music for that to be the case, and much if it is still in airplay today. I could counter each and every rap song you posted with those type of lyrics with a rock song with lyrics just as bad.

Eh, perhaps. I think that mainstream/radio rap is on average more misogynistic than rock.

Also, I'm talking more about rock today. Sure, if you go back through history you'll probably find more rock songs than rap songs that are misogynistic, especially since rock is roughly 20-30 years older. I meant to compare mainstream rock hits today with mainstream rap hits today. I just don't hear many rock songs talking about bitches, hoes, getting chicks drunk at the club, etc etc.

Then again, I don't listen to alot of radio; this is just personal opinion/experience.


Also, your dismissal of most of Nickelback's songs being popish as some kind of an excuse is such a crock. How many pop songs do you have to put out before you're allowed to objectify women and its OK in your eyes?

I never said it's ok to objectify women. I'm just saying most of the Nickleback stuff I hear on the radio isn't misogynistic. There's "Something in your mouth" and "Animal" but that's all I've heard. I'm not a big fan of Nickelback, though, I might've missed some.

[MannyIsGod]

STP never got huge airplay

JFPJh31Q6oI

I'm sure you shouldn't have worn that dress was just a fashion statement.

[LnGrrrR]

There is definitely a lot of misogyny in rap music. I will never deny that. But what really pisses me off is when people act like its a problem in RAP and not in MUSIC.

Sure, it exists in every musical genre. I just think that it's more 'accepted' as a norm in rap. (And obviously, this doesn't apply to every style of rap/rap artest. I haven't heard Lupe Fiasco, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, be misogynistic, for instance.)

[MannyIsGod]

Rolling Stones get airplay, but what obviously misogynistic song by them gets heavy airplay?


Under my Thumb




Eh, perhaps. I think that mainstream/radio rap is on average more misogynistic than rock.


Why? You've got no data to back this up. I can pull out modern rock songs that are just as misogynistic so why do you believe this?



Also, I'm talking more about rock today. Sure, if you go back through history you'll probably find more rock songs than rap songs that are misogynistic, especially since rock is roughly 20-30 years older. I meant to compare mainstream rock hits today with mainstream rap hits today. I just don't hear many rock songs talking about bitches, hoes, getting chicks drunk at the club, etc etc.

Then again, I don't listen to alot of radio; this is just personal opinion/experience.



I never said it's ok to objectify women. I'm just saying most of the Nickleback stuff I hear on the radio isn't misogynistic. There's "Something in your mouth" and "Animal" but that's all I've heard. I'm not a big fan of Nickelback, though, I might've missed some.

It doesn't matter if most of their songs aren't misogynistic. Thats my point. The fact that you brought that up at all was bad. The fact that Nickelback has ONE song like that is bad enough. Dre has plenty of songs where he's not disparaging women. Yet no one is pointing that out.

[MannyIsGod]

Sure, it exists in every musical genre. I just think that it's more 'accepted' as a norm in rap. (And obviously, this doesn't apply to every style of rap/rap artest. I haven't heard Lupe Fiasco, Talib Kweli, Mos Def, be misogynistic, for instance.)

Its been accepted in Rock for 50 fucking years yet we're its MORE accepted in rap? HOW?

[LnGrrrR]

STP never got huge airplay

JFPJh31Q6oI

I'm sure you shouldn't have worn that dress was just a fashion statement.

You're pulling a song from the early 90's? Yeesh, that's nearly two decades ago. :D

[resistanze]

LnGrrrR, what does the amount of current airplay have anything to do with it? Rappers don't control airplay - Clear Channel does. It's not more socially accepted in rap any more than in rock because commercial rap is currently in.

[MannyIsGod]

And that song still gets a shit load of airplay on modern rock stations.

[LnGrrrR]

Its been accepted in Rock for 50 fucking years yet we're its MORE accepted in rap? HOW?

*shrug*

I guess you could argue they're equally "accepted". I just hear casual misogyny more often in rap songs, on average.

[MannyIsGod]

LNG the main point is that yeah, its pretty accepted in Rap but thats not unusual considering its been accepted in most Rock/Pop music since the existence of radio. Its a fact. Rap gets more commercial airplay now and for people to act as if this is somehow a new phenomenon exclusive to rap is complete and utter bullshit. Its a phenomenon associated with our societies music overall.

[LnGrrrR]

LnGrrrR, what does the amount of current airplay have anything to do with it? Rappers don't control airplay - Clear Channel does. It's not more socially accepted in rap any more than in rock because commercial rap is currently in.

This may be the issue as well. Rap seems more popular than rock now, so I hear rap songs more often.

Agian, probably just a perception on my part. I haven't heard many current rock songs that casually talk about getting chicks drunk in order to sleep with them, but that might be cause I'm not listening to stations playing those rock songs.

[LnGrrrR]

LNG the main point is that yeah, its pretty accepted in Rap but thats not unusual considering its been accepted in most Rock/Pop music since the existence of radio. Its a fact. Rap gets more commercial airplay now and for people to act as if this is somehow a new phenomenon exclusive to rap is complete and utter bullshit. Its a phenomenon associated with our societies music overall.

I didn't mean to put that impression out there, but I can see where it looked like I was saying that. I don't think it's a new thing, I just think that more commercial rap songs lower women to the status of "item" than most of the latest commercial rock songs I've heard.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not even sure thats the case. There is a lot of misogyny in rap songs, but most songs lowering women? No fucking way. There's just no fucking way thats true.

[Spurminator]

Come on Manny, you can't really be comparing "Under My Thumb" to "Bitches Ain't Shit."

[MannyIsGod]

Um of course I can. I guess because Mick Jagger calls the woman in question a dog instead of a bitch ( :lmao x 224908209482 ) its much better. I'd love to see you tell me on what grounds Under My Thumb has some kind of moral high ground here.

[CubanSucks]

I think the issue with the misogyny in different genres of music is its subtlety. In rock, you may actually have to listen to a few lines to decipher the meaning while in rap it's far less ambiguous and play out word for word "the bitch is gonna suck my dick"

[MannyIsGod]

Are you saying subtly makes it better or OK? I'm not even sure rock music is very subtle with it, but thats another point.

[Spurminator]

Um of course I can. I guess because Mick Jagger calls the woman in question a dog instead of a bitch ( :lmao x 224908209482 ) its much better. I'd love to see you tell me on what grounds Under My Thumb has some kind of moral high ground here.

There's an element of subtlety that you have to consider. Play "Under My Thumb" to a 14 year old and ask him what the song was about (if he's still paying attention by the end).

[Spurminator]

Are you saying subtly makes it better or OK? I'm not even sure rock music is very subtle with it, but thats another point.

I'd absolutely say it's preferable.

The portrayals of women in 90's rap videos by artists that are revered by critics as hip hop legends is as misogynistic as, if not worse than, the portrayals of women in 80's glam metal videos that are now widely (and rightfully) panned and mocked for their dated sexism.

There's absolutely a ton of examples of misogyny in rock, but they are not celebrated or forgiven to the degree that we celebrate and forgive misogyny in hip hop (because it's part of the "culture").

I'm against censorship, and I think what is popular within a genre is not a fair picture of the genre as a whole. By the early nineties, hip hop had grown into a great art form and had the potential to do a lot of social good while being entertaining as well. Then The Chronic exploded and there was no air time for ATCQ or KRS One.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't typically make judgement by what 14 year olds can or can't decipher nor do I use the judgement of 14 year olds to set my bar on what constitutes misogyny. If somehow subtle misogyny is better to you guys then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't even think Under My Thumb is the slightest bit in subtle, to be quite honest. The lyrics are extremely overt. Now, do I think most of the population is too stupid to realize what they are listening to? Yeah, I do, but that doesn't just apply to rock listeners.

[CubanSucks]

There's an element of subtlety that you have to consider. Play "Under My Thumb" to a 14 year old and ask him what the song was about (if he's still paying attention by the end).

exactly. Never heard that specific song but your point is exactly what I was thinking of

[Spurminator]

I don't typically make judgement by what 14 year olds can or can't decipher nor do I use the judgement of 14 year olds to set my bar on what constitutes misogyny. If somehow subtle misogyny is better to you guys then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't even think Under My Thumb is the slightest bit in subtle, to be quite honest. The lyrics are extremely overt. Now, do I think most of the population is too stupid to realize what they are listening to? Yeah, I do, but that doesn't just apply to rock listeners.

It's more subtle than "Bitches Ain't Shit," can we agree on that?

[MannyIsGod]

I'd absolutely say it's preferable.

The portrayals of women in 90's rap videos by artists that are revered by critics as hip hop legends is as misogynistic as, if not worse than, the portrayals of women in 80's glam metal videos that are now widely (and rightfully) panned and mocked for their dated sexism.

There's absolutely a ton of examples of misogyny in rock, but they are not celebrated or forgiven to the degree that we celebrate and forgive misogyny in hip hop (because it's part of the "culture").

I'm against censorship, and I think what is popular within a genre is not a fair picture of the genre as a whole. By the early nineties, hip hop had grown into a great art form and had the potential to do a lot of social good while being entertaining as well. Then The Chronic exploded and there was no air time for ATCQ or KRS One.

The portrayal of women overall in the 90s changed over the 80s. You think Jersey shore would have aired in the 80s? Are you going to tell me thats a rap issue as well?

This is what you guys don't seem to understand. You keep trying to pin the misogyny tail on the rap when the donkey is our society. The whole idea that misogyny is OK or better because its more subtle is an absolute crock of shit.

[LnGrrrR]

Um of course I can. I guess because Mick Jagger calls the woman in question a dog instead of a bitch ( :lmao x 224908209482 ) its much better. I'd love to see you tell me on what grounds Under My Thumb has some kind of moral high ground here.

I'd say that "Under My Thumb" is just as misogynistic, but more "artistic", which gives it a little more leeway IMHO. Of course, YMMV.

I always pictured "Under My Thumb" to be about a guy who likes to abuse women, but not necessarily a true-to-life personification of Mick Jagger himself. It's in the same vein that Eminem plays the real-life/fake character back-and-forth, which allows him to say things that normally would be out-of-line.

[MannyIsGod]

It's more subtle than "Bitches Ain't Shit," can we agree on that?

Its not. He calls her a dog. Mick Jagger calls her a dog. He doesn't curse, but I don't think calling someone a bitch and calling someone a dog are exactly different at all.

The whole concept of subtly even mattering is lost on me entirely. If someone says to me "You've got the brain power of a pile of feces" they might as well have said "you're as dumb as shit" because its the same damn thing.

[LnGrrrR]

The whole concept of subtly even mattering is lost on me entirely. If someone says to me "You've got the brain power of a pile of feces" they might as well have said "you're as dumb as shit" because its the same damn thing.

Uhm.... that's not what subtlety is. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

No shit, thats my point and thats basically what you're saying if you're saying Under My Thumb is somehow subtly and not overtly misogynistic.

[Spurminator]

The portrayal of women overall in the 90s changed over the 80s. You think Jersey shore would have aired in the 80s? Are you going to tell me thats a rap issue as well?

This is what you guys don't seem to understand. You keep trying to pin the misogyny tail on the rap when the donkey is our society. The whole idea that misogyny is OK or better because its more subtle is an absolute crock of shit.

Not saying it's okay, just that it's preferable. Also saying that we seem afraid to shun misogyny in hip hop that we openly and unapologetically shun in other art forms.

And we haven't even begun to talk about homophobia either.

[MannyIsGod]

Saying its preferable is completely wrong. There should be no relativism here.

[ALVAREZ6]

Are you saying subtly makes it better or OK? I'm not even sure rock music is very subtle with it, but thats another point.

It's definitely way more subtle in rock, on average, compared to what you hear in rap. And of course it doesn't make it OK, or better, but it changes the circumstances. It causes the majority of society casually listening to the misogynistic rock song to often not even notice the misogyny right when it's playing in the music. It's something you can easily hide from kids, and you can't say the same about vulgar, misogynistic rap songs. Why else are moms like Judd and you can imagine a great proportion of them thinking the same, while disregarding or indirectly accepting the more hidden misogyny in rock? Of course I don't have stats on this, but I'd imagine more people complain about it in rap music and that at least may support the fact that it's way more blatant in rap music. And, not only more blatant, but probably more frequent as well, but again that's my opinion. You have your misogynistic hit every now and then, but I don't see it as a focal point like in rap. In gangsta rap albums, it's tough to go a whole verse, let alone song, without it bukkakeing all over the bitches, so to speak.

I'm not really trying to aim to a certain position on this issue, I see little point in arguing over whether rap and rock are more/less misogynistic on average. Just spewing some opinion myself. In my opinion, African Americans aren't any more or less misogynistic than other races, so I don't think it's anything black-related going on here, although race may certainly play a factor in this argument for many. Like somebody already hinted at, I think the trend can precisely be an extended trend, and soon enough you'll see a shift out of the current level of misogyny in rap and/or a shift in the popular music genre on radio as a whole. Both could easily happen simultaneously.

One thing in my opinion is for certain though, artists are simply running out of material, if most haven't already. A true legendary artist has tons to say over the course of their musical careers, while the majority are simply different people than that. We aren't all poetic legends, but sooo many people want to be not only a rock star or rapper, but also famous. When you're like your average hood rapper and you're just trying to get by and make a living, you're probably doing just that, and your inspiration may be different from the few true artists. For next album material ideas, you might ask yourself, "What will sell?" instead of "What do I really have to say to the world?" In my opinion, there's not enormous room for more to be said, relatively, in terms of the latter question. The majority of artists are trying to sell, and probably not trying to create. They'd be doing something different if the music wasn't paying.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, homophobia goes far outside the realm of rap music. Just like misogny, its present but it doesn't start there.

People seeking the answers to why these elements are present in the music shouldn't start in the music. Thats like treating the flu with cough drops.

[Spurminator]

Also, homophobia goes far outside the realm of rap music. Just like misogny, its present but it doesn't start there.

People seeking the answers to why these elements are present in the music shouldn't start in the music. Thats like treating the flu with cough drops.

I think we can do both. We can shun artists that celebrate misogyny and homophobia and we can address why they are such popular topics for artistic content within all genres.

[LnGrrrR]

Also, homophobia goes far outside the realm of rap music. Just like misogny, its present but it doesn't start there.

People seeking the answers to why these elements are present in the music shouldn't start in the music. Thats like treating the flu with cough drops.

I think homophoia is widespread throughout the music industry. I'm dating myself, but I remember what a shock it was to hear "Immigrants and faggots, they make no sense to me/they come to our country and spread some fucking disease" from GnR. Never saw them quite the same way after that.

[ALVAREZ6]

Society simply needs to change for everybody's own good. We should be looking towards pop music as well, parents in cars need to stop allowing their 10 year old girls to listen to stupid ass fucking whore music.

When you have all of the young girls of the world singing:


Come here, rude boy, boy; can you get it up?
Come here rude boy, boy; is you big enough?
Take it, take it baby, baby
Take it, take it; love me, love me

Tonight I'ma let it be fire
Tonight I'ma let you take me higher
Tonight, baby, we could get it on, yeah, we could get it on, yeah

Dumb ass bitch deserved to get her ass knocked out, Rihanna knows 90% of her success depends on dumb little girls.


This sort of ties in to my degrees of subtleness argument, pertaining to rap and other genres. In rock, in my opinion it usually gets by, no one cares. In pop/Rihanna/Beyonce/Ke$ha and all of the other horrible "artists" in the genre, the songs can very easily be heard under a different perception since they can be very fast paced and seem innocent, have trouble trying to explain my thoughts but perhaps you get the point. In rap, more often than not you're listening to an angry voice talk the vulgar phrases into the mic; it's what gangsta rap is. Being angry and vulgar on the mic, and talking.

In any case, the speed at which generations are becoming "sexual", if you will, seems to be younger and younger, and it can be disturbing at times. Young little girls should not be begging "can you get it up; are you big enough".

[LnGrrrR]

Rihanna is a no-talent hack. She's been staying relevant by relying more frequently on her sexuality, to the point where she might as well be singing, "Buy my album and I'll come to your house and have sex with you, promise!"

[MannyIsGod]

I think we can do both. We can shun artists that celebrate misogyny and homophobia and we can address why they are such popular topics for artistic content within all genres.

I agree with that, but you'll never rid music of misogyny by shunning artists when the whole of society accepts them. You can take the cough drop while you have the flu and it might help a symptom, but its not the solution.

And thats the thing, no one is addressing the actual issue here. Ashley Judd wants to sit there and make stupid comments about Snoop and P Diddy and instead she should be questioning our society. And instead people are trying to pretend as though this form of misogyny is some new level that we've reached and is something we haven't had present for a long ass time.

I find Judd's statement to be fucking ridiculous, to be quite honest. But what is really sad is how prevalent the attitude is. Not one of you can quantify how rap is more misogynist than other genes but none the less that assumption is accepted as fact by many of you. This is not something that is vague and is EASILY studied. None of you may be racist and I don't believe you are, but I think it is pretty foolish to dismiss the effects of the perceptions of race has on the views of a genre of music predominantly made of of African Americans (I'm hoping that LNG and Spurm can understand the context of this statement because I know not everyone will).

When I'm not presented with proof to back up the statements of the level of misogyny in rap when I know that its a problem through out the entire music industry and has been for a long ass time then I have to wonder what pushes people to that position.

[MannyIsGod]

Let me put it to you this way: Study after Study after Study has shown that our society perceives African Americans far more negatively than other segments of society so I don't think its a wild leap to make the connection of why (or at the least allow for the possibility) a problem in all segments of the music world is perceived to be worse in a genre dominated by African Americans.

[LnGrrrR]

This is not something that is vague and is EASILY studied. None of you may be racist and I don't believe you are, but I think it is pretty foolish to dismiss the effects of the perceptions of race has on the views of a genre of music predominantly made of of African Americans (I'm hoping that LNG and Spurm can understand the context of this statement because I know not everyone will).


I can definitely see how it looks coming from Judd. I would argue that the misogny in most music comes from the fact that most rockers/rappers come from lower-income environments, and most of them express their newfound "power" in various ways, with misogyny being one of the most frequent.

There's lots of other factors in play too, such as education, social/peer pressure, etc etc.

But trying to rail against "misogyny" in our society isn't going to get one anywhere. You have to focus on something or else people won't listen, for good or for bad. That's why I welcome Judd saying that, because while it's tone-deaf, it might actually start an interesting discussion out there.

[Spurminator]

I think misogyny in rap is more accepted and forgiven, except by the Ashley Judds and the churchy soccer moms of the world, than misogyny in other mainstream genres.

I'm having a really hard time picturing Pitchfork.com, for example, naming a ROCK song with the same lyrics as "Big Pimpin" as the 30th best song of the decade, no matter how amazing the music and melody are. In fact, the rock artist who wrote such a song would likely be demoted to worse-than-Nickelback status by critics.

[Cane]

No shit, thats my point and thats basically what you're saying if you're saying Under My Thumb is somehow subtly and not overtly misogynistic.

Yup. Hell, "rock and roll" is a sexual analogy and it seems like half the songs are about fucking and having too much fun. They make ya believe that with the power of the electric guitar and rock and roll you can get anything and anyone you want and its damn cool, hell its what you're even supposed to do :hat

Back in the day you'd get some wall to wall counseling for listening to the Rolling Stones if you were in the military. Especially with the way rock and rollers danced and rebelled in general with their music and beliefs. Jagger got plenty of hate for his style.

Judd would be a square back then but then again the modern media has reached epic levels of sensory overload.

[resistanze]

Let me put it to you this way: Study after Study after Study has shown that our society perceives African Americans far more negatively than other segments of society so I don't think its a wild leap to make the connection of why (or at the least allow for the possibility) a problem in all segments of the music world is perceived to be worse in a genre dominated by African Americans.

This has historically been the case. Suddenly we've decided to have congressional hearings tackling gun violence, homophobia, sexism and drugs when hip-hop became center stage. Suddenly the American Dream of driving nice cars and having big houses has suddenly become utterly repulsive and vain when a guy with cornrows and gold teeth does it.

I think people can't admit it's more about the messenger than the actual message.

[ALVAREZ6]

Let me put it to you this way: Study after Study after Study has shown that our society perceives African Americans far more negatively than other segments of society so I don't think its a wild leap to make the connection of why (or at the least allow for the possibility) a problem in all segments of the music world is perceived to be worse in a genre dominated by African Americans.
Of course.


In any case, it is exactly as you say; not easily studied. You even would have to decide how to measure misogyny, if you even wanted to do the study. Would it be based on frequency, or severity? Rap music in my opinion in misogynistic more often than all others, and the vulgarity/severity is also something not easily quantifiable, especially since rap is vulgar and violent as a genre. For the record, rap is probably what I listen to most often, so in no way am I trying to bash the genre. But I do sincerely believe it is misogynistic more often.

It's completely a societal issue. You can look at so many areas in which the increasing "sexualness" comes from. In my opinion, women themselves (mainly young women, college age, etc.) perpetuate/extend this trend.

It seems we're getting to a different and much larger issue as a whole.

[resistanze]

lol, I'm gonna make a record that subtlety says "kill all jews"; it'll make it less racist.

[MannyIsGod]

Open sexuality is not the same as misogyny, btw. A song talking about having a lot of sex with women isn't misogynist. A song saying all women are meant for is to be used or fucked is misogynist. I just want to make that clarification because there have been several posts in the thread which focus on increasing sexuality but thats not misogynist at all on its own.

[LnGrrrR]

lol, I'm gonna make a record that subtlety says "kill all jews"; it'll make it less racist.

Less racist, no. More acceptable, probably.

[ALVAREZ6]

Open sexuality is not the same as misogyny, btw. A song talking about having a lot of sex with women isn't misogynist. A song saying all women are meant for is to be used or fucked is misogynist. I just want to make that clarification because there have been several posts in the thread which focus on increasing sexuality but thats not misogynist at all on its own.

Stop being a jackass, you can address me directly if you want. I know they aren't the same thing, but I think they go hand in hand in this discussion.

[LnGrrrR]

This has historically been the case. Suddenly we've decided to have congressional hearings tackling gun violence, homophobia, sexism and drugs when hip-hop became center stage. Suddenly the American Dream of driving nice cars and having big houses has suddenly become utterly repulsive and vain when a guy with cornrows and gold teeth does it.

I think people can't admit it's more about the messenger than the actual message.

Eminem referenced that, but mentioned that Congress got all mad because he was a white rapper bringing that up.

And of course, there's the infamous "cop killer" song... :lol

[MannyIsGod]

You weren't the only. Its not all about you. They don't go hand in hand at all, though.

LOL @ the thought I somehow am adverse to addressing you too. Thanks for your permission?

[MannyIsGod]

This has historically been the case. Suddenly we've decided to have congressional hearings tackling gun violence, homophobia, sexism and drugs when hip-hop became center stage. Suddenly the American Dream of driving nice cars and having big houses has suddenly become utterly repulsive and vain when a guy with cornrows and gold teeth does it.

I think people can't admit it's more about the messenger than the actual message.

I just want Ashley Judd to say why the hell she didn't go after Mick Jager or Scott Wieland.

[LnGrrrR]

Open sexuality is not the same as misogyny, btw. A song talking about having a lot of sex with women isn't misogynist. A song saying all women are meant for is to be used or fucked is misogynist. I just want to make that clarification because there have been several posts in the thread which focus on increasing sexuality but thats not misogynist at all on its own.

I think there's a very strong implication in some mainstream rap songs that women are only there to have sex, and that all women will have sex with you if you get them drunk or throw money at them. (That exists in other genres of music too, of course; it's just not said as frankly as in rap.)

[LnGrrrR]

I just want Ashley Judd to say why the hell she didn't go after Mick Jager or Scott Wieland.

Because no one under the age of 25 probably even recognizes those names? :lol

[MannyIsGod]

I doubt anyone under the age of 25 is buying Judd's book.

[MannyIsGod]

Then again I doubt anyone who is buying Judd's book is listening to Diddy or Snoop.

[MannyIsGod]

Honestly I pretty much just spent 2 pages saying what CF said in two paragraphs on the first page.

[ALVAREZ6]

You weren't the only. Its not all about you. They don't go hand in hand at all, though.

Just like that, as a science, no room for debate? Whatever man, I think they can be.

Increasing sexuality --> increasing acceptance of sexual lyrics --> a lot of the misogyny in rap pertains to sex, gangstas having bro b4 ho mentality, only using women for sex --> women accept because it's a part of nature for men to want sex often (yes, there are studies for why men want sex more often than women for the sake of having sex, strictly for pleasure) + who would want to hang out with bitchy, backstabbing women (many women themselves also accept this view)

Now, the ending few parts of the equation are certainly open for debate and open for many more alternatives, but my main point is that they can be related, and it shows on the demand/acceptability side.

[MannyIsGod]

They can be related is quite different from the implication something goes hand in hand with something else. Maybe you misunderstood or misused the phrase "goes hand in hand" but it certainly does not mean "can be related" but it means "is always related".

[ALVAREZ6]

LOL @ the thought I somehow am adverse to addressing you too. Thanks for your permission?

I don't think you are, had nothing to do with permission obviously, I thought I was the only one going that route in my posts and thus thought you were trying to be a jackass, which is not something I view as way out of the ordinary.

[MannyIsGod]

Fair enough - my reputation precedes me.

[ididnotnothat]

only thing bothering me is how fast she's backed off her comments. Typical fucking Hollywood coward PC bullshit

Yeah, she lost some street cred by not telling it like it is.

[Bill_Brasky]

I hate when celebrities open their mouths and say some stupid shit like this. She comes off as a fucking retard who has no idea what she's talking about.

[MannyIsGod]

She backed off because to her credit she realized how stupid the comments were. Saying Rap is the soundtrack to misogyny is about as clueless as it gets.

[ALVAREZ6]

They can be related is quite different from the implication something goes hand in hand with something else. Maybe you misunderstood or misused the phrase "goes hand in hand" but it certainly does not mean "can be related" but it means "is always related".

I suppose some of that could be the case. I don't know though, hand in hand is just another super common phrase that can take on slightly different meanings in different cases. Since so many people will use such a phrase, they can often lose their exact definition, if there ever was one. And this happens with words over and over.

Accordiong to Merriam-Webster, hand in hand = in close association, which in my opinion is not "is always related".



Enough of being caught up in bullshit, I just wanted to bring in other factors that could affect this discussion, since we know we aren't going to conduct a study and get anywhere with the original subject.

[ALVAREZ6]

I hate when celebrities open their mouths and say some stupid shit like this. She comes off as a fucking retard who has no idea what she's talking about.

So do I, it happens way too often. The real problem is most celebrities, like most people, don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

[ALVAREZ6]

Honestly I pretty much just spent 2 pages saying what CF said in two paragraphs on the first page.

She has an almost unparalleled skill in this. It seems she's already had every discussion on the internet before. Seriously though CF, :tu for being quite intelligent and being a woman. You're the best :toast













:lol

[Spurminator]

STP never got huge airplay

JFPJh31Q6oI

I'm sure you shouldn't have worn that dress was just a fashion statement.

By the way, if this is misogynistic, then so is Nirvana's "Polly."

[Bill_Brasky]

So do I, it happens way too often. The real problem is most celebrities, like most people, don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

Oh I know. And it sucks because the media actually thinks we care what they have to say....as if their opinion is somehow more important or valid because they're famous(used to be, in Judd's case).

[MannyIsGod]

By the way, if this is misogynistic, then so is Nirvana's "Polly."

If? :bang

[Spurminator]

If? :bang

Is misogyny determined by the intent of the lyricist or one's interpretation of those lyrics?

[monosylab1k]

I wonder if Ashley Judd has a problem with David Allan Coe.

[monosylab1k]

Is misogyny determined by the intent of the lyricist or one's interpretation of those lyrics?

So how would you interpret Sex Type Thing?

Personally, I enjoy that nice rap ditty about how female dogs are just gardening tools and performances by magicians.

[MannyIsGod]

Is misogyny determined by the intent of the lyricist or one's interpretation of those lyrics?

Either or. Wieland's attempts to save his own skin are fairly weak. If Snoop came out and said his shit was just an attempt to draw attention to the situation we'd all fall over laughing. I feel the same way about Wieland. Dude's record isn't exactly good.

You're welcome to take his word for it though.

[CuckingFunt]

I meant to compare mainstream rock hits today with mainstream rap hits today. I just don't hear many rock songs talking about bitches, hoes, getting chicks drunk at the club, etc etc.

Misogyny doesn't begin and end with "bitch" and "ho."

[MannyIsGod]

So how would you interpret Sex Type Thing?

Personally, I enjoy that nice rap ditty about how female dogs are just gardening tools and performances by magicians.

:lmao

[monosylab1k]

What's also funny is how a white guy with a piano can play that same song and then suddenly it's not bad, it's just hilarious and ironic.

[Spurminator]

Either or. Wieland's attempts to save his own skin are fairly weak. If Snoop came out and said his shit was just an attempt to draw attention to the situation we'd all fall over laughing. I feel the same way about Wieland. Dude's record isn't exactly good.

You're welcome to take his word for it though.

I mean I'm not saying it was clever or good, but I don't have any reason to believe it's not meant to be an anti-rape song told from the perspective of the rapist. Just like "Polly." What else in STP's discography would lead you to believe Weiland would write a song glorifying rape?

[mrsmaalox]

I wonder if Ashley Judd has a problem with David Allan Coe.

If she does it's probably cuz her mom fucked him in front of her LOL. But I just say that because I believe I heard she was on tv last week explaining/backpedaling the part of her book that tells about her mom's wild sex life and how emotionally traumatized it left her. Poor airhead :lol

[MannyIsGod]

No reason if you ignore Wieland's record of violence with his wife. Pretty big step from a guy who hits women to one who rapes but I'm not going to take that guy's word for it.

Even if you want to write off sex type thing its not like the genre has a shortage of songs that fit the bill.

[MannyIsGod]

If she does it's probably cuz her mom fucked him in front of her LOL. But I just say that because I believe I heard she was on tv last week explaining/backpedaling the part of her book that tells about her mom's wild sex life and how emotionally traumatized it left her. Poor airhead :lol

Everyone has problems and everyone has issues but yeah - I really am not going to cry a river for the rich woman. Maybe kind of cold but you pretty much ask for it when your famous because you're pretty and thats about it.

[mavsfan1000]

No reason if you ignore Wieland's record of violence with his wife. Pretty big step from a guy who hits women to one who rapes but I'm not going to take that guy's word for it.

Even if you want to write off sex type thing its not like the genre has a shortage of songs that fit the bill.
Bullshit. That isn't really about bitches an hos at all. That is only a gangsta thing to say. Rock has it's other issues with satanic, emo, horny, and druggy lyrics but labeling chicks is not one of the issues of it.

[Spurminator]

What's also funny is how a white guy with a piano can play that same song and then suddenly it's not bad, it's just hilarious and ironic.

I don't know about hilarious, but that IS sort of what irony is... It wouldn't be as satire-friendly if it wasn't so ridiculously over the top.

[MannyIsGod]

Bullshit. That isn't really about bitches an hos at all. That is only a gangsta thing to say. Rock has it's other issues with satanic, emo, horny, and druggy lyrics but labeling chicks is not one of the issues of it.

:lmao

[CuckingFunt]

Open sexuality is not the same as misogyny, btw. A song talking about having a lot of sex with women isn't misogynist. A song saying all women are meant for is to be used or fucked is misogynist. I just want to make that clarification because there have been several posts in the thread which focus on increasing sexuality but thats not misogynist at all on its own.

An important point. Especially since songs in which women are the sexual agents (however misguided and/or problematic they may be) are pretty much the antithesis of misogyny.

[Dark Gable]

Ashley strikes a hard point that is hard, if not impossible to ignore, and although her statement may be characterized as too over reaching she meant well and one cannot make such a statement wihout generating some buzz over it. She meant well and I cannot disagree with her assessment. I am surprised by the lack of support from the Black community and the sisters whom her words address,

[Dark Gable]

And CuckingFunt is as solid as it gets.

[LnGrrrR]

Misogyny doesn't begin and end with "bitch" and "ho."

Of course not. But I think it's harder to defend when you're blunt about it. Again, if I politely say, "I think you're ignorant in this matter", it sounds better than, "You're an f'ing moron."

[monosylab1k]

I don't know about hilarious, but that IS sort of what irony is... It wouldn't be as satire-friendly if it wasn't so ridiculously over the top.

So misogyny in music is okay when it's ironic and a white guy with a piano does it.

[Spurminator]

So misogyny in music is okay when it's ironic and a white guy with a piano does it.

I don't think making fun of misogyny qualifies as misogyny.

Do you think Ben Folds is a misogynist?

[CuckingFunt]

Of course not. But I think it's harder to defend when you're blunt about it. Again, if I politely say, "I think you're ignorant in this matter", it sounds better than, "You're an f'ing moron."

I don't really get the argument that subtlety or politeness is necessarily better. Or preferable. Less offensive, maybe, but that's completely subjective.

In terms of actually shaping or influencing culture, however, I've always thought subtlety to be more problematic specifically because it is so easily dismissed as background noise. And that's the case when it comes to misogyny, racism, heterosexism/homophobia, etc. Bitch, ho, ######, faggot, and the like are pretty universally accepted as crossing a line and, therefore, tend to remove credibility instantly from people who use those terms. It's the subtle stuff, however, the stuff that we make allowances for or explain away as "not that bad," or "not as bad as ____," that tends to have a lasting effect.

[Cane]

Open sexuality is not the same as misogyny, btw. A song talking about having a lot of sex with women isn't misogynist. A song saying all women are meant for is to be used or fucked is misogynist. I just want to make that clarification because there have been several posts in the thread which focus on increasing sexuality but thats not misogynist at all on its own.

True, its hard to fit all of a genre's songs under a convenient umbrella like Judd tried to do with hip-hop. At the end of the day its whats in the artist, lyrics and music that defines the piece rather than just the genre.

However Rock and Roll's origins and the traditional rock and roll fantasy is all about the alpha male perspective which includes objectifying and exploiting women. That might not be straight-up hatred of women but still seems at least somewhat misogynistic.

[Spurminator]

Bitch, ho, ######, faggot, and the like are pretty universally accepted as crossing a line and, therefore, tend to remove credibility instantly from people who use those terms.

That's an interesting perspective because that kind of stuff seemed to sell a LOT of records back in the day. If we're talking about cultural impact, I really don't think there are a lot of young hip hop fans dismissing those artists as sexist and therefore non-credible.

I wont disagree that subtle sexism is just as bad (misogyny is misogyny), but this is the problem I have with the critical celebration of hip hop artists that put out this kind of garbage. WE may dismiss it because it's ridiculous to US and has no impact on OUR worldview, but it's not so ridiculous to a lot of people and I think it affirms a lot of poisonous views on gender roles.

[CuckingFunt]

That's an interesting perspective because that kind of stuff seemed to sell a LOT of records back in the day. If we're talking about cultural impact, I really don't think there are a lot of young hip hop fans dismissing those artists as sexist and therefore non-credible.

I wont disagree that subtle sexism is just as bad (misogyny is misogyny), but this is the problem I have with the critical celebration of hip hop artists that put out this kind of garbage. WE may dismiss it because it's ridiculous to US and has no impact on OUR worldview, but it's not so ridiculous to a lot of people and I think it affirms a lot of poisonous views on gender roles.

I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't think it's unique to hip-hop.

[ALVAREZ6]

I don't disagree with any of this. I simply don't think it's unique to hip-hop.

Rap/hip-hop does the best job though:sucker

[mingus]

hip hop influences one race a hell of a lot more to act a certain way than the other in the U.S. hip hop line of thought has influenced a generation of blacks significantly, in a bad way, and held them back quite a bit. the worst thing that hip hop did to white people was rap-rock, which set rock back quite a bit. one of the problems is rap, but to focus on it to the point where you're ignoring the other issues is stupid and not productive.

[MannyIsGod]

hip hop influences one race a hell of a lot more to act a certain way than the other in the U.S. hip hop line of thought has influenced a generation of blacks significantly, in a bad way, and held them back quite a bit. the worst thing that hip hop did to white people was rap-rock, which set rock back quite a bit. one of the problems is rap, but to focus on it to the point where you're ignoring the other issues is stupid and not productive.

Hip hop influenced a generation of blacks in a bad way huh?

The cough I had made me get the flu!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that poverty and other factors influenced generations of blacks a hell of a lot more negatively than hip hop ever has.

[mingus]

Hip hop influenced a generation of blacks in a bad way huh?

The cough I had made me get the flu!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that poverty and other factors influenced generations of blacks a hell of a lot more negatively than hip hop ever has.

Hip Hop hasnt negatively influenced blacks? Thats as ridiculous as your cough analogy.

And there are other, more important issues, which is exactly why I said that by ignoring them to emphasize the hip hop one is counterproductive.

[Winston Wolf]

Hip hop artist DO influence people to dress, talk and act like they do. That's a no-brainer.

[mrsmaalox]

Ashley strikes a hard point that is hard, if not impossible to ignore, and although her statement may be characterized as too over reaching she meant well and one cannot make such a statement wihout generating some buzz over it. She meant well and I cannot disagree with her assessment. I am surprised by the lack of support from the Black community and the sisters whom her words address,

I believe Bill Cosby said much the same things, and more, a few years back, and nobody wanted to hear it from him either.

[MannyIsGod]

Hip Hop hasnt negatively influenced blacks? Thats as ridiculous as your cough analogy.

And there are other, more important issues, which is exactly why I said that by ignoring them to emphasize the hip hop one is counterproductive.

I never said it didn't influence them. I took issue with your statement that it had influenced the black community in a bad way. Back up your statement if you can. I'm all ears.

[MannyIsGod]

I believe Bill Cosby said much the same things, and more, a few years back, and nobody wanted to hear it from him either.

I don't know about that. For one, Cornell West defended Cosby. Oprah had him on and gave him a platform from which to voice his views. To say that nobody wanted to hear it is just flat out incorrect. Those are 2 of the most prominent (if not the most prominent in Oprah) voices in the African American community. Cosby also does public speaking on a regular basis. If no one is interested in listening that wouldn't make sense.

I don't agree with everything Cosby said but in the long run what he said will have a far greater positive impact on the black community than anything Ashley Judd said.

[mingus]

I never said it didn't influence them. I took issue with your statement that it had influenced the black community in a bad way. Back up your statement if you can. I'm all ears.

Your cough analogy implies you don't think it influences them in a bad way. Since you're so interested do the research yourself. There's plenty of it out there. It seems you spend most of your day on the computer anyway so look it up.

[MannyIsGod]

You made a statement - either you can back it up or you can't. Nice weak ad hominen, btw. If there's plenty of data then provide it. You surely used it before you made you statement, right?

[mingus]

It's not either I can or can't back it up, it's that I'm not. I'm not going to give you evidence for it because I'm posting from my iPhone and usually do on Spurstalk. It's hard enough writing 2 sentences. Like I said, you seem to have all the time in the world, so just do the research yourself. There's a wealth of information out there on it. Knock yourself out.

[MannyIsGod]

A wealth of information that you can't provide. Thanks. Posting links is hard.

[mingus]

There's a wealth of information and you've got a wealth of time. There's no excuse for you not to research it. And I know you wont look it up because you'll find out that I'm right and you're wrong.

[mingus]

Hip hop influenced a generation of blacks in a bad way huh?

The cough I had made me get the flu!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that poverty and other factors influenced generations of blacks a hell of a lot more negatively than hip hop ever has.

and anyway, even in your first reply to me you imply in the last sentence you wrote that hip hop has a negative impact, even if small. So I don't know what the fuck you're even saying now.

[mingus]

You know what? I'm just going to stop now. I realize that I'll never get the last word against some dude who has 50,000 posts.

[MannyIsGod]

Good thing you took the time to type all of that on your iphone instead of just finding a simple link. :tu

[LnGrrrR]

To jump back on the subtle/not-subtle argument, I think that using the misogynstic terms openly is arguably worse. It shifts the window, so that now instead of subly implying something, you're just outright saying it. The reason why people imply something is usually because it's not acceptable socially to say it outright. If an artist feels comfortable using terms that aren't couched in analogy/simile/metaphor, then I think that shows worse on a society. YMMV.

[ChumpDumper]

"Brown Sugar" was about raping slaves, so it was erased from the cultural landscape by the overwhelming consensus of decent white folk.

SaYdFFqxydE

[Kermit]

"Brown Sugar" was about raping slaves, so it was erased from the cultural landscape by the overwhelming consensus of decent white folk.

SaYdFFqxydE

Raping slaves? Rapping slaves. What the fuck are we talking about again?

[LnGrrrR]

"Brown Sugar" was about raping slaves, so it was erased from the cultural landscape by the overwhelming consensus of decent white folk.

SaYdFFqxydE

:lol Yes, I mnetioned that song above as one of the more 'unsubtle' songs.

One question I think this brings up is the separation of an artist from his songs. Is Mick Jagger tacitly endorsing raping black women? Or is he just "telling a tale"? A little of both?

Does it matter if the song lyrics aren't in the first person? Eminem played around with this effect a lot, for instance.

[CuckingFunt]

Your cough analogy implies you don't think it influences them in a bad way.

No. It doesn't. Manny's cough analogy is simply pointing out that attacking hip-hop culture for its negative affect on the black community (and, without going on too wild a tangent, let's throw a snarky "lol" at the idea that hip-hop only affects/influences the black community) is a matter of treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Simply acknowledging that fact doesn't suggest that the symptom isn't still unpleasant.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Yes, I mnetioned that song above as one of the more 'unsubtle' songs.

One question I think this brings up is the separation of an artist from his songs. Is Mick Jagger tacitly endorsing raping black women? Or is he just "telling a tale"? A little of both?

Does it matter if the song lyrics aren't in the first person? Eminem played around with this effect a lot, for instance.It's a fair question, but even Mick Jagger tones down the lyrics when he does the song live. It's not like Ice-T ever killed a cop, either.

[CuckingFunt]

Still not sure the value in arguing over who does something worse and/or more overtly when it's pretty obvious that misogyny is prevalent in multiple genres and in many aspects of popular culture. It seems problematic to me in the same way that Judd's comments bothered me from the outset -- it becomes someone else's problem. It suggests, in intentionally general terms, that as long as those people over there are doing something obviously horrible, I don't have to investigate how my group and/or my actions contribute the same problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, suggests that being an asshole is justified/justifiable just so long as there's always someone being a bigger asshole.

[LnGrrrR]

Still not sure the value in arguing over who does something worse and/or more overtly when it's pretty obvious that misogyny is prevalent in multiple genres and in many aspects of popular culture. It seems problematic to me in the same way that Judd's comments bothered me from the outset -- it becomes someone else's problem. It suggests, in intentionally general terms, that as long as those people over there are doing something obviously horrible, I don't have to investigate how my group and/or my actions contribute the same problem. Or, perhaps more accurately, suggests that being an asshole is justified/justifiable just so long as there's always someone being a bigger asshole.

Judd just picked the genre that doesn't hide it as well as others. Can we agree that, recently, rap has become more overt in its misogyny than other mainstread genres? I think that's a relatively safe assumption.

If that's the case, then Judd is just picking on it because it's popular. (With all of the aforementioned problems that entails re: us v them.)

Let's face it though; if Judd just calls out misogyny in general, no one probably listens or cares. By specifying the source of said misogyny, it's more likely to generate discussion/controversy, etc etc. (For instance, if I say "Politicians are liars!", not many will disagree. But if I say, "X politician is a liar", then it will most likely provoke argument.)

[MannyIsGod]

Judd was just attacking something she knows little about. I'm pretty sure Judd's hip hop collection is non existent. There was no rational for her attack.

Don't even try to defend her. At BEST her bullshit was just flat out retarded and at worst it was racist. I'm choosing to believe she just attacked it out of ignorance (I would LOVE to see whats on Judd's Ipod so I could find some shit on there) but yeah.

That Rap doesn't hide it as well as others is just bullshit. How many times do we have to provide overt examples of misogyny in music outside of rap to prove that point? Its fucking overt!

LNG, where you see "worse hiding" I see people who just willfully ignore it in other music and seek it out in rap.

[Viva Las Espuelas]

SmHeP9Sve48

[CuckingFunt]

Judd just picked the genre that doesn't hide it as well as others. Can we agree that, recently, rap has become more overt in its misogyny than other mainstread genres? I think that's a relatively safe assumption.

If that's the case, then Judd is just picking on it because it's popular. (With all of the aforementioned problems that entails re: us v them.)

I get that. I still think it's problematic.

Further, I don't know that "overt" has been defined well enough within this discussion to agree that recent rap is more overtly misogynistic than recent anything else.


Let's face it though; if Judd just calls out misogyny in general, no one probably listens or cares. By specifying the source of said misogyny, it's more likely to generate discussion/controversy, etc etc. (For instance, if I say "Politicians are liars!", not many will disagree. But if I say, "X politician is a liar", then it will most likely provoke argument.)

I don't know how effective it is to provoke argument for the sake of provoking argument. Especially when the issue is raised in such a way that the majority of the resulting discussion focuses on where best to assign blame. If this thread exists as an example of the type of discussion that Judd's comments might provoke, for instance, I would say that it is an incredibly counterproductive approach. How much of this thread has been dedicated to implicating hip-hop culture as overtly misogynistic? How much has been dedicated to defending rock music as less offensively misogynistic? Comparatively, how much of this discussion has been dedicated to identifying the source of misogyny within contemporary popular culture and looking for a solution?

[mingus]

No. It doesn't. Manny's cough analogy is simply pointing out that attacking hip-hop culture for its negative affect on the black community (and, without going on too wild a tangent, let's throw a snarky "lol" at the idea that hip-hop only affects/influences the black community) is a matter of treating the symptoms rather than the disease. Simply acknowledging that fact doesn't suggest that the symptom isn't still unpleasant.

It's a product of the black community while being contributive to it. It throws fuel to the fire so to speak. A cough doesnt contribute to the flu. The analogy is a complete failure.

[LnGrrrR]

Judd was just attacking something she knows little about. I'm pretty sure Judd's hip hop collection is non existent. There was no rational for her attack.

Don't even try to defend her. At BEST her bullshit was just flat out retarded and at worst it was racist. I'm choosing to believe she just attacked it out of ignorance (I would LOVE to see whats on Judd's Ipod so I could find some shit on there) but yeah.

That's pretty much what I was saying. I was just more subtle about it. :)


That Rap doesn't hide it as well as others is just bullshit. How many times do we have to provide overt examples of misogyny in music outside of rap to prove that point? Its fucking overt!

Again, you're using songs from the 60's and 90's to make your point.We're talking about current mainstream radio artists, something that 18-25 year olds listen to. (The Nickelback one was relevant, for instance.)

I can probably pick out 3 or 4 four current songs that have pretty blatant misogyny. Heck, even the Katy Perry song out has Kanye singing about abducting, probing and exposing a woman (though since he's playing at being an alien in the song, one could say he's not advocating that.)

Frankly, I think I could provide more popular, current rap songs today that include misogyny than other genres. (Not saying those other genres are immune to it, but that there is more prevalence in the rap genre.)

Without any sort of stat-based analysis, I don't think either of us will gain much ground on the subject.


LNG, where you see "worse hiding" I see people who just willfully ignore it in other music and seek it out in rap.

Probably not willful ignorance, but ignorance the same.

[CuckingFunt]

It's a product of the black community while being contributive to it. It throws fuel to the fire so to speak. A cough doesnt contribute to the flu. The analogy is a complete failure.

The cough analogy made perfect sense to me for the reasons I mentioned, but it's not my analogy so I'm not going to put any more energy into explaining/defending it.

However, I take issue with the suggestion that hip-hop culture is a product solely of the black community. Or that it influences only the black community. As soon as it moved off the streets of New York and into the major recording studios, it has influenced, and been influenced by, the white community just as much as anyone else. You're nuts if you think the hyper-masculinity and misogyny present within early gangsta rap would have been anywhere near as popular or as lucrative as it was if not for its appeal to the white suburban kids who bought it in droves. It's frankly negligent to discuss the misogyny present within hip-hop lyrics (or any other characteristics of the genre) without considering the possible effect of its mixed audience on the popularity of certain trends and themes.

[LnGrrrR]

I get that. I still think it's problematic.

Further, I don't know that "overt" has been defined well enough within this discussion to agree that recent rap is more overtly misogynistic than recent anything else.

Fair enough. I'd say that recent rap more often uses terms such as "bitch, ho" etc etc, and also more likely to treat a women as an item and not a person, one who will sleep with anyone if the money/power/dick/etc is enough.

Of course, there are lots of grey areas. For instance, is Usher's "Make Love in this Club" a misogynistic song? What about the remix of Enrique Inglesias' "Tonight I'm Loving You" (which gets changed to "Tonight I'm F'ing You")? Does that change the outlook on the original song?


I don't know how effective it is to provoke argument for the sake of provoking argument. Especially when the issue is raised in such a way that the majority of the resulting discussion focuses on where best to assign blame. If this thread exists as an example of the type of discussion that Judd's comments might provoke, for instance, I would say that it is an incredibly counterproductive approach. How much of this thread has been dedicated to implicating hip-hop culture as overtly misogynistic? How much has been dedicated to defending rock music as less offensively misogynistic? Comparatively, how much of this discussion has been dedicated to identifying the source of misogyny within contemporary popular culture and looking for a solution?

A discussion has to start somewhere. *shrug* Do you think anyone would've cared if Judd decried misogyny within music culture as a whole?

As far as identifying a solution, what solution are you looking for? A solution to preventing misogyny in society? In music? In certain brands of music?

[LnGrrrR]

However, I take issue with the suggestion that hip-hop culture is a product solely of the black community. Or that it influences only the black community. As soon as it moved off the streets of New York and into the major recording studios, it has influenced, and been influenced by, the white community just as much as anyone else. You're nuts if you think the hyper-masculinity and misogyny present within early gangsta rap would have been anywhere near as popular or as lucrative as it was if not for its appeal to the white suburban kids who bought it in droves. It's frankly negligent to discuss the misogyny present within hip-hop lyrics (or any other characteristics of the genre) without considering the possible effect of its mixed audience on the popularity of certain trends and themes.

So let's discuss it. How much of that problem is chicken (rap artists being misogynystic and kids liking it) and how much is egg (rap artists being misogynystic BECAUSE kids like it)?

And why did white kids identify with gangsta rap so much in the 90's? Simple fantasy fulfillment? A shared sense of rebellion? They wanted to piss off their parents?

[CuckingFunt]

A discussion has to start somewhere. *shrug* Do you think anyone would've cared if Judd decried misogyny within music culture as a whole?

If Judd had said it by herself? Probably not. If Judd was one of many people actively commenting on multiple instances of misogyny in popular culture? Yes, eventually.


As far as identifying a solution, what solution are you looking for? A solution to preventing misogyny in society? In music? In certain brands of music?

Well, I obviously don't think it does a hell of a lot of good to rid our music of misogynistic attitudes if they were still so prevalent everywhere else. So, yes, I would hope to eventually find a solution for the overall objectification of women. And, as suggested earlier, I don't think that pointing a finger at what other people are doing is a particularly effective method for enacting that change.

Realistically, people have been ranting and railing against the anti-women sentiments within rap and hip-hop for as long as I can remember, yet it hasn't improved. How/why would we be able to tone down the misogyny in hip-hop culture when there are examples in literally EVERY OTHER FORM OF POPULAR CULTURE that tell us it's okay? Fuck, even chick flick/romantic comedies, many of which are written by women and aimed at female audiences, reinforce a number of misogynistic concepts (I'm pretty sure Judd herself has been in at least one film that presented the female lead as finding value in her life only after convincing a man to love her), so how is it at all realistic to assume that the hip-hop community is going to stand out as a shining beacon of feminism when little else is being asked to do the same?

[CuckingFunt]

So let's discuss it. How much of that problem is chicken (rap artists being misogynystic and kids liking it) and how much is egg (rap artists being misogynystic BECAUSE kids like it)?

And why did white kids identify with gangsta rap so much in the 90's? Simple fantasy fulfillment? A shared sense of rebellion? They wanted to piss off their parents?

Wrong questions.

I don't doubt for a second that hip-hop artists (like artists in any other genre) are misogynistic of their own volition. Or that the people buying it do so because they like it. The more appropriate question is how much have record sales of misogynistic recording artists encouraged producers/record companies to seek out more of that product?

Additionally, fantasy fulfillment, shared sense of rebellion, and pissing off one's parents are no doubt all contributing factors to the popularity of hip-hop within white suburbia. It can't be seen as purely coincidental, however, when authenticity and street cred are determined by characteristics that happen to fall in line (almost perfectly) with the stereotypes of black masculinity (and black female sexuality, for that matter) that have existed within the white community for several hundred years. To that end, one has to ask to what extent the popularity of misogyny and hyper-masculinity within hip-hop has been shaped by the fact that those aspects most closely adhere to the white assumptions about who/what black people are.

To be clear, I am in no way suggesting that hip-hop is what it is today only because of white audiences. Rather, I am suggesting that since hip-hop is a business, and since it is a product consumed by a very diverse audience, it is impossible to discuss as being an accurate reflection of the black community alone.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't want to sound like a fag or anything, but I'd kinda like to make love to her. Always thought she was gorgeous. She can say whatever she wants.

[DMC]

The hoes they speak of aren't being raped. They are just ghetto rats. They existed 100 years go in some form or fashion, hell even 3000 years ago. It's how they live, and these artists are just talking about their own experiences (or they are saying what sells to those in that culture).

Of course, there are those who buy it just so they can feel they are part of something raw, to be thought of as someone who had to climb out of a tough spot when in reality they have their names on the back of their mom's suburban with soccer balls above them.

[CuckingFunt]

I don't want to sound like a fag or anything, but I'd kinda like to make love to her.

This statement confuses me.

[MannyIsGod]

CBF confuses me.

[monosylab1k]

I don't think making fun of misogyny qualifies as misogyny.

Do you think Ben Folds is a misogynist?

He chose that song for a reason. He used it to garner attention. He used it to sell records. So if "promoting" misogyny = you're a misogynist, then yes Ben Folds is.

Maybe Ben Folds should have covered "###### Fucker" instead if he really wanted to make a statement. Oh wait, that's another song by a white guy where the lyrics are "open to interpretation".

[LnGrrrR]

If Judd had said it by herself? Probably not. If Judd was one of many people actively commenting on multiple instances of misogyny in popular culture? Yes, eventually.

Exactly my point. Ashley Judd, by herself, wasn't going to change anything. But by pointing out a specific group (rightly or wrongly, ignorant or not), she was able to start a discussion in the blogosphere.


Well, I obviously don't think it does a hell of a lot of good to rid our music of misogynistic attitudes if they were still so prevalent everywhere else. So, yes, I would hope to eventually find a solution for the overall objectification of women.

Good luck finding a solution to that. Might as well try to solve world hunger while you're at it.

Also, I find it curious you think it pointless to try to curb misogynistic attitudes in music by itself. I'm not saying that rap alone should have to curb their misogyny, or that black leaders should denounce rap. But I don't think it's bad to hold singers responsible for what they sing. Maybe once the public gets over this rap vs other music issue, they'll start to look at all singers who use misogyny.


And, as suggested earlier, I don't think that pointing a finger at what other people are doing is a particularly effective method for enacting that change.

I disagree. Poiting a finger is merely the first step; the next step could theoretically be boycotting singers who used misogyny. (Something that was unsuccesfully deployed against R Kelly, IIRC.)


Realistically, people have been ranting and railing against the anti-women sentiments within rap and hip-hop for as long as I can remember, yet it hasn't improved.

So does that mean people shouldn't point it out? *shrug* Is music off-limits as far as critiquing when it comes to misogyny?


How/why would we be able to tone down the misogyny in hip-hop culture when there are examples in literally EVERY OTHER FORM OF POPULAR CULTURE that tell us it's okay?

I don't know; that's a good question to ask. I assume that it would start with people denouncing other forms of misogyny. (Though I doubt porn would be hit, since that's like asking muscle magazines not to feature males.)


Fuck, even chick flick/romantic comedies, many of which are written by women and aimed at female audiences, reinforce a number of misogynistic concepts (I'm pretty sure Judd herself has been in at least one film that presented the female lead as finding value in her life only after convincing a man to love her), so how is it at all realistic to assume that the hip-hop community is going to stand out as a shining beacon of feminism when little else is being asked to do the same?

I don't think anyone's saying that hiphop/rap should be held up as some "shining beacon of feminism". But the reverse is also not true; just because other forms of culture show misogyny does not mean that criticism of rap misogyny is off-base/wrong/etc etc.

Would you have taken offense if Judd said that romantic comedies portrayed/perpetuated misogynystic themes?

[LnGrrrR]

I don't doubt for a second that hip-hop artists (like artists in any other genre) are misogynistic of their own volition. Or that the people buying it do so because they like it. The more appropriate question is how much have record sales of misogynistic recording artists encouraged producers/record companies to seek out more of that product?

That's kinda what I was getting at, except you place the misogyny-seeking at the record company level rather than the rapper, which is more appropriate.


Additionally, fantasy fulfillment, shared sense of rebellion, and pissing off one's parents are no doubt all contributing factors to the popularity of hip-hop within white suburbia. It can't be seen as purely coincidental, however, when authenticity and street cred are determined by characteristics that happen to fall in line (almost perfectly) with the stereotypes of black masculinity (and black female sexuality, for that matter) that have existed within the white community for several hundred years. To that end, one has to ask to what extent the popularity of misogyny and hyper-masculinity within hip-hop has been shaped by the fact that those aspects most closely adhere to the white assumptions about who/what black people are.

Given what you've said here, why would some black artists choose to reinforce these negative stereotypes? I can understand making a "deal with the devil" to make money and get out of a bad situation, but once they've made a deal, why continue to reference the same subject matter? What about black producers who hire artists who reinforce the stereotypes?


To be clear, I am in no way suggesting that hip-hop is what it is today only because of white audiences. Rather, I am suggesting that since hip-hop is a business, and since it is a product consumed by a very diverse audience, it is impossible to discuss as being an accurate reflection of the black community alone.

I agree. The origins may be rooted in the black community, but it is definitely a multi-cultural genre, and has been so since probably the mid to late 80's. (Heck, the very coupling of Aerosmith and Run DMC is evidence of cultural intermingling.)

[LnGrrrR]

He chose that song for a reason. He used it to garner attention. He used it to sell records. So if "promoting" misogyny = you're a misogynist, then yes Ben Folds is.

I'm not sure about the Ben Folds cover, but singing a song that has misogynstic elements doesn't necessarily make the artist/song misogynystic. (For example, look at Immortal Technique's "Dance with the Devil".)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

6868F53rgKw

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This statement confuses me.

*sigh* where's Midge when you need him?


It's a play on a classic line from the movie Orgazmo.
Matt Stone keeps saying "I don't want to sound like a queer or nothin, but..."
and says something nonsensical
shit like that
eventually he tells trey parker "I don't want to sound like a queer or nothin', but, I'd kinda like to make love to you right now"

But my point remains the same, I'd like to make love to Ashley Judd. She's a hot. I don't care what she says about hating black people, she's still grade A.

[Trill Clinton]

She has a semi point. Hip-Hop is the culture, ie DJ'ing, MC's, break dancing, graffiti.

Rap music is spawned from hip hop and some rap music does have some rape undertone in the lyrics.

So she's wrong to say hip-hop is rape culture....but really, I could give a shit.

[CuckingFunt]

Exactly my point. Ashley Judd, by herself, wasn't going to change anything. But by pointing out a specific group (rightly or wrongly, ignorant or not), she was able to start a discussion in the blogosphere.

My issue isn't whether or not her comments started discussion; it's whether or not that discussion is productive.


Also, I find it curious you think it pointless to try to curb misogynistic attitudes in music by itself. I'm not saying that rap alone should have to curb their misogyny, or that black leaders should denounce rap. But I don't think it's bad to hold singers responsible for what they sing. Maybe once the public gets over this rap vs other music issue, they'll start to look at all singers who use misogyny.

Never said it was pointless to try. Just suggested it would require addressing several different issues in order to have any chance of sticking.


I disagree. Poiting a finger is merely the first step; the next step could theoretically be boycotting singers who used misogyny. (Something that was unsuccesfully deployed against R Kelly, IIRC.)

"Unsuccessfully" being an important qualifier, there.


So does that mean people shouldn't point it out? *shrug* Is music off-limits as far as critiquing when it comes to misogyny?

I don't know; that's a good question to ask. I assume that it would start with people denouncing other forms of misogyny. (Though I doubt porn would be hit, since that's like asking muscle magazines not to feature males.)

I don't think anyone's saying that hiphop/rap should be held up as some "shining beacon of feminism". But the reverse is also not true; just because other forms of culture show misogyny does not mean that criticism of rap misogyny is off-base/wrong/etc etc.

Would you have taken offense if Judd said that romantic comedies portrayed/perpetuated misogynystic themes?

I think the tenor of the discussion in this thread has obscured my original comment and the point of my argument. I don't think that it is wrong for Judd or anyone else to call attention to the fact that hip-hop culture is incredibly misogynistic. Have never suggested that doing so is, as a concept, inaccurate or inappropriate. My point has always been that it is problematic for Ashley Judd, someone wholly removed from the hip-hop community, to single out that community as a source of negative attitudes/ideals. Regardless anything else discussed within this topic -- whether or not the hip-hop community is misogynistic, whether or not other genres of music are more or less misogynistic, whether or not the overtness of misogyny has an impact on its negative effect, etc. -- the fact that Judd generalized about a community to which she does not belong and ignored the presence of misogyny within her own community automatically makes her comments an issue of "us" versus "them." Such an approach is always, ALWAYS, more divisive than it is productive.


That's kinda what I was getting at, except you place the misogyny-seeking at the record company level rather than the rapper, which is more appropriate.

Given what you've said here, why would some black artists choose to reinforce these negative stereotypes? I can understand making a "deal with the devil" to make money and get out of a bad situation, but once they've made a deal, why continue to reference the same subject matter? What about black producers who hire artists who reinforce the stereotypes?

I agree. The origins may be rooted in the black community, but it is definitely a multi-cultural genre, and has been so since probably the mid to late 80's. (Heck, the very coupling of Aerosmith and Run DMC is evidence of cultural intermingling.)

The only reason I even went down this road was to refute specific comments that rap/hip-hop reflected and influenced the black community, and it seems we both agree that the community with which it interacts is far more diverse than that. As for the rest of it, I was perhaps not clear enough in my original comments on the subject, but I don't think the white community has had a direct impact on what people say (don't think, for example, that there are necessarily meetings in which rappers are explicitly told to stick to subjects that wouldn't otherwise interest them), but it has certainly had an impact on determining what is heard.

If, when it was new/newish, white audiences, for whatever reasons, like to listen to black rappers addressing subjects in a manner that fits their perceptions of blackness, and record execs then identify that particular style/subject as being financially lucrative, then perhaps they're more likely to gamble on artists who deal with those market tested issues than they are on artists who, I don't know, rap about their experience as a gay male or about the importance of respecting women. Fast forward twenty or so years, and you have an entire generation of listeners and artists who have grown up with the expectation/understanding that hip-hop = x, y, and z. The above is all hypothetical, of course, and completely tangential to the discussion of Judd's comments, but the underlying point is that the potential impact of a largely white audience makes it impossible to realistically discuss hip-hop as the reflection of black culture alone.

[CuckingFunt]

*sigh* where's Midge when you need him?


It's a play on a classic line from the movie Orgazmo.
Matt Stone keeps saying "I don't want to sound like a queer or nothin, but..."
and says something nonsensical
shit like that
eventually he tells trey parker "I don't want to sound like a queer or nothin', but, I'd kinda like to make love to you right now"

But my point remains the same, I'd like to make love to Ashley Judd. She's a hot. I don't care what she says about hating black people, she's still grade A.

Got the reference. Just thought it was funny to throw out the gay disclaimer before expressing an interest in having sex with a member of the opposite sex.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Apparently I tried to make it funny on more than one level and ended up making it not funny at all

[CuckingFunt]

The f-word is usually an immediate funny-kill for me, but I'm sure others may have gotten the humor.

[LnGrrrR]

My issue isn't whether or not her comments started discussion; it's whether or not that discussion is productive.

I think it has the potential for productivity. It all depends on how people treat the conversation.


Never said it was pointless to try. Just suggested it would require addressing several different issues in order to have any chance of sticking.

Misunderstood you then. But I would say it's hard to effectively push a message on all fronts.


"Unsuccessfully" being an important qualifier, there.

I agree that it's a big distinction. What can we take from that example though? That people will listen to music they like, no matter how horrible the message, or the person sending that message? That's a rather depressing stance, but it might be valid. I'm honestly not too sure how many music/musician boycotts have been attempted (successfully or not).



I think the tenor of the discussion in this thread has obscured my original comment and the point of my argument. I don't think that it is wrong for Judd or anyone else to call attention to the fact that hip-hop culture is incredibly misogynistic. Have never suggested that doing so is, as a concept, inaccurate or inappropriate. My point has always been that it is problematic for Ashley Judd, someone wholly removed from the hip-hop community, to single out that community as a source of negative attitudes/ideals. Regardless anything else discussed within this topic -- whether or not the hip-hop community is misogynistic, whether or not other genres of music are more or less misogynistic, whether or not the overtness of misogyny has an impact on its negative effect, etc. -- the fact that Judd generalized about a community to which she does not belong and ignored the presence of misogyny within her own community automatically makes her comments an issue of "us" versus "them." Such an approach is always, ALWAYS, more divisive than it is productive.

I can understand that point, and agree. I am optimistic that GOOD discussion could possibly come from what is admittedly a poor choice by Judd.


The only reason I even went down this road was to refute specific comments that rap/hip-hop reflected and influenced the black community, and it seems we both agree that the community with which it interacts is far more diverse than that. As for the rest of it, I was perhaps not clear enough in my original comments on the subject, but I don't think the white community has had a direct impact on what people say (don't think, for example, that there are necessarily meetings in which rappers are explicitly told to stick to subjects that wouldn't otherwise interest them), but it has certainly had an impact on determining what is heard.

Agreed, and I was pretty blunt in my first comments on the thread as well.


If, when it was new/newish, white audiences, for whatever reasons, like to listen to black rappers addressing subjects in a manner that fits their perceptions of blackness, and record execs then identify that particular style/subject as being financially lucrative, then perhaps they're more likely to gamble on artists who deal with those market tested issues than they are on artists who, I don't know, rap about their experience as a gay male or about the importance of respecting women. Fast forward twenty or so years, and you have an entire generation of listeners and artists who have grown up with the expectation/understanding that hip-hop = x, y, and z. The above is all hypothetical, of course, and completely tangential to the discussion of Judd's comments, but the underlying point is that the potential impact of a largely white audience makes it impossible to realistically discuss hip-hop as the reflection of black culture alone.

Agreed.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The f-word is usually an immediate funny-kill for me, but I'm sure others may have gotten the humor.

Scott Thompson disagrees.

[CubanSucks]

The f-word is usually an immediate funny-kill for me, but I'm sure others may have gotten the humor.

fuck? Oh you're talking about fag!







But seriously though, try to fix that bleeding heart of yours and get over yourself

[ALVAREZ6]

Judd was just attacking something she knows little about. I'm pretty sure Judd's hip hop collection is non existent. There was no rational for her attack.

Don't even try to defend her. At BEST her bullshit was just flat out retarded and at worst it was racist. I'm choosing to believe she just attacked it out of ignorance (I would LOVE to see whats on Judd's Ipod so I could find some shit on there) but yeah.

That Rap doesn't hide it as well as others is just bullshit. How many times do we have to provide overt examples of misogyny in music outside of rap to prove that point? Its fucking overt!

LNG, where you see "worse hiding" I see people who just willfully ignore it in other music and seek it out in rap.
IDK Manny. I completely get your point, but I also don't think it's black and white. I think your last statement, underlined above, is a pretty big generalization and would bet most people don't willfully ignore it in non-rap genres. Especially for a lot of people who aren't extremely into music as an art and into appreciating thoughtful lyrics. The type of people who only listen to music casually, on the go/in the car, and don't seek it out on their own time too much. I think a large percentage of the adult population, across all races, can be classified in this category. Certainly my parents and tons of other adults I know in this country. And also as we know, a lot of people are simply stupid. If you add all of those factors, and then agree with me that gangsta rap, which is just talking with a rhythm, it really is much easier to notice misogyny in rap music, on average.

I truly believe with the inherent musical differences in the genres, you have to "seek it out" much more frequently in rock than in rap. In rap, it slaps you in the face in plain talking, violent tone, over and over within a single song.

[ALVAREZ6]

Comparatively, how much of this discussion has been dedicated to identifying the source of misogyny within contemporary popular culture and looking for a solution?
I actually tried to expand the conversation...

[ALVAREZ6]

So let's discuss it. How much of that problem is chicken (rap artists being misogynystic and kids liking it) and how much is egg (rap artists being misogynystic BECAUSE kids like it)?

And why did white kids identify with gangsta rap so much in the 90's? Simple fantasy fulfillment? A shared sense of rebellion? They wanted to piss off their parents?
Fantasy fulfillment and shared sense of rebellion are probably the two best factors you gave, but probably not extremely big compared to the same reason anyone likes any type of music. The pissing off parents part is probably the least significant. As a suburban kid with most of my friends growing up being white and enjoying rap, I'd have to say for the most part it's really just the sound of the music, like any other appeal to other genres. I like the beats. Really, the reason why I love rap music so much is because of the beats, not much because of the lyrics. And of course it makes for popular party music in this time period in this country, and I like it a lot for getting pumped for sports and while at the gym.

Any music that gets me in a violent and gangsta mood is a big plus for sports. In HS, before football games on game day I'd only listen to angry rap with very heavy beats, and some heavy metal on the side :lol

[Stringer_Bell]

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2009-11-11-ashleyjudd2.jpg

Good looking white hoe, tbh

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Gorgeous, really.

[mingus]

The cough analogy made perfect sense to me for the reasons I mentioned, but it's not my analogy so I'm not going to put any more energy into explaining/defending it.

However, I take issue with the suggestion that hip-hop culture is a product solely of the black community. Or that it influences only the black community. As soon as it moved off the streets of New York and into the major recording studios, it has influenced, and been influenced by, the white community just as much as anyone else. You're nuts if you think the hyper-masculinity and misogyny present within early gangsta rap would have been anywhere near as popular or as lucrative as it was if not for its appeal to the white suburban kids who bought it in droves. It's frankly negligent to discuss the misogyny present within hip-hop lyrics (or any other characteristics of the genre) without considering the possible effect of its mixed audience on the popularity of certain trends and themes.

i don't think it influences only the black community, but its meaning doesn't translate the same way to suburban whites, or blacks, as it does to urban blacks. the kids that don't have two parents because their dads are too busy fucking hoes and gangbanging (both of which rap glorifies--again not saying its the root of the problem, but that it adds fuel to the fire) and look up to rappers are the ones that are affected, not some white kid who wants to pretend he's some bad ass by listening to it vicariously.

[Jacob1983]

Damn, she's really late on this one. Did she just start to listen to rap music and become aware of the bitches, hoes, sluts, etc...?

[Soul_Patch]

Reminds of of our cruise we took a week or so ago. We went to watch Karaoke one night just because we had never done so before.

Some 10 year old girl got up on stage with her older sister and did some Rhiana song about making her man feel good in bed, etc, complete with suggestive dancing and all...they were actually good singers, BUUTTTT I felt like Chris Hansen was gonna come snatch us all up at any moment. It was totally awkward.

[Soul_Patch]

5sc_nQiuDN0

[ALVAREZ6]

Reminds of of our cruise we took a week or so ago. We went to watch Karaoke one night just because we had never done so before.

Some 10 year old girl got up on stage with her older sister and did some Rhiana song about making her man feel good in bed, etc, complete with suggestive dancing and all...they were actually good singers, BUUTTTT I felt like Chris Hansen was gonna come snatch us all up at any moment. It was totally awkward.

You should've gotten on stage and slapped the shit out of those little whores.

[CubanSucks]

You should've gotten on stage and slapped the shit out of those little whores.

and found their parents and repeat

[Kermit]

5sc_nQiuDN0

:lmao

Lick my ass, up and down
Lick it till your tongue turns doodoo brown

[z0sa]

Rap certainly has the most explicit lyrics of any genre: talking about selling drugs, repping street gangs, and fucking hoes is pretty much exclusive to rap, simply because those types of lyrics completely lack the subtlety shown in most of rock and pop, especially older stuff.

If you want to talk about the culture of the musicians themselves, I doubt there's any difference between rockers or rappers, nor will there ever be. Big cars and houses, hot groupies, lots of cash, it's all the same across the spectrum.

How much those explicit lyrics affect the listeners, that's up for speculation. I personally find most rap and hip hop to be really shitty and obviously marketed to the young and obviously shallow who are already easily influenced by anything loud, boisterous, and obnoxious.

[LnGrrrR]

How much those explicit lyrics affect the listeners, that's up for speculation. I personally find most rap and hip hop to be really shitty and obviously marketed to the young and obviously shallow who are already easily influenced by anything loud, boisterous, and obnoxious.

What hiphop/rap do you like? Curious.

[Soul_Patch]

O2MEI5LH2lY

I remember when this was the shit, back in like 7th grade....hahah...

[Mulchie]

Rihanna ain't helpin' with her music and sexual lyrics and talking about wanting to be tied up and spanked while getting that ass waxed.

[MannyIsGod]

Rihanna ain't helpin' with her music and sexual lyrics and talking about wanting to be tied up and spanked while getting that ass waxed.
Fairly mysogynist post, tbh.