FBI just seized the big 3 poker sites and indicted the founders

[IronMaxipad]

Pokerstars.com, Fulltilt.com, and AbsolutePoker.com

http://www.pokerstars.com/banner7.jpg

The U.S. Attorney for New York has indicted the founders the three largest online poker companies in the U.S. and seized their websites in a major crackdown on internet gambling.

The indictment charges eleven defendants — including the founders of PokerStars, Full Tilt Poker, and Absolute Poker — with bank fraud, money laundering, and illegal gambling offenses.

In addition, the domains for FullTiltPoker.net and AbsolutePoker.com have been seized by the FBI and replaced by this pleasant reminder that gambling is illegal.

The indictment essentially spells out a scheme by the poker companies to set up phony bank accounts to process illegal gambling transactions, either by lying to the banks about the nature of the transactions or by targeting struggling banks to who need the money to stay afloat.

In addition to the criminal charges, the US Attorney filed a civil suit seeking $3 billion in damages. The FBI froze 75 bank accounts and seized five websites, in addition to the arrests that were made today.

The bank and wire fraud charges carry a sentence of up to 30 years in prison




Meet The Boy Genius Who Just Took Down The Online Poker Industry

The internet is still coming to grips with the huge online gambling bust that just took down the U.S.'s three biggest online poker sites.

But Australia's Courier-Mail already has the scoop on the one man who may have single-handedly built the online industry ... then handed it to the U.S. government on a platter.

According to this story, Daniel Tzvetkoff was a young Australian entrepreneur who set up the payment processing schemes used by the biggest poker sites to handle their (mostly illegal) transactions.

He made Full Tilt Poker and Poker Stars millions of dollars — and making as much $150,000 a day for himself — but then got even more greedy and started taking them for himself. They sued him, demanding more than $100 million of their own money back.

Then last April, Tzvetkoff was arrested in Las Vegas and charged with the same crimes those sites founders were charged with today: money laundering, bank fraud, wire fraud. As an Australian citizen with a lot of wealth, he was considered a flight risk and denied bail.

Then after a "secret" meeting with prosecutors, he was suddenly out on bail. And now, his former colleagues are the ones facing serious jail time.

Daniel Tzvetkoff knows the operations of these poker site inside and out. He's the one man positioned to give these companies to the U.S. Attorneys on a silver platter. And it looks like that's exactly what he did, cooperating with the authorities to avoid his own lengthy jail sentence.

All the major gambling prosecutions in the U.S., since Tzvetkoff's arrest have been run out of the office of Arlo Devlin-Brown, the Manhattan Asst. U.S. Attorney, who is Tzvetkoff's "handler."

According to a source, "He knows how to reverse-engineer transactions to determine its original source," making him very valuable to investigators.

And the biggest irony of all? It's been rumored that the only reason the FBI got their hands on him is because Full Tilt or Poker Stars (the companies he used to work for and stole from) tipped off the FBI that he was going to be traveling to the United States

They ratted him out ... and he turned the tables. No honor among thieves.

And as the Courier Mail put it, if this were still the old days, he'd buried in the Las Vegas desert right now.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Is the online money instantly sent to your bank or did people store their winnings to play online only to lose it in the end?

[IronMaxipad]

BTW this is a US thing only.

America FUCK YEA

[ididnotnothat]

They took a gamble and lost. I bet they have some good attorneys though.

[baseline bum]

Haha... isn't this fucking country great? They go after Barry Bonds, after online poker, and meanwhile not a goddamn person faces jail time for all the fraud that plunged this nation into another depression.

[baseline bum]

Eagerly awaiting Manny's meltdown...

[The Meltdown]

Eagerly awaiting Manny's meltdown...

:tu

[MannyIsGod]

Is the online money instantly sent to your bank or did people store their winnings to play online only to lose it in the end?

The people will get it back at some point.

I swear such a crock of shit. The sad thing is that earlier this year we were the closest we've ever been to having an actual bill pass congress to get things done.

I have played online maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 6 months and all I had was something like 50 bucks on Full Tilt but this still makes me sad. I had several great years off of Full Tilt, Pokerstars and Party Poker.

:(

[TE]

I thought about using pokerstars.com a couple of years ago.

...

I guess I made the right decision.

[MannyIsGod]

Eagerly awaiting Manny's meltdown...

Nah man, I cashed out a while ago. The games started getting way too rocky and with school + a real job it was too hard to find time to actually review hands and play.

I was thinking about retiring my title which refers to Bill Frist passing UIGEA but I think now I'll keep it awhile longer.

I'd jumped into a 10 or 20 dollar MTT tournament lately when I had a few hours to kill but otherwise I've played far more live (living close to a bunch of casinos makes that more attractive anyway) than online.

[baseline bum]

The people will get it back at some point.

I swear such a crock of shit. The sad thing is that earlier this year we were the closest we've ever been to having an actual bill pass congress to get things done.

I have played online maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 6 months and all I had was something like 50 bucks on Full Tilt but this still makes me sad. I had several great years off of Full Tilt, Pokerstars and Party Poker.

:(

I had a friend who had $80,000 seized last time the fucking government went after the poker sites. He handled it way better than I would have.

[MannyIsGod]

I had 10,000 in Neteller when they seized that. Took me 6 or so months to get that money. But I got it.

[MannyIsGod]

I can only imagine the meltdown currently happening at 2+2.

[Soul_Patch]

I can only imagine the meltdown currently happening at 2+2.

It is fairly epic.

I cannot withdrawl or play on Pstars right now. I dont have a lot of money there, less than 100 bucks, but know some people with some significant cash that are sorta freaking out.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah - you know Geddy don't you? I wonder how much he's got online. The forum servers for 2+2 are taking FOREVER to load right now.

[Soul_Patch]

yea they are blown up...it took forever to read a few pages of the thread going on about it...now i cant get it back online.


I messaged Getty on facebook and, yea, he and his buddies are sorta paranoid right now. Hopefully they can get it off eventually, but even so, i couldnt feel comfortable leaving that much cash there, unless there were explicit words from the DOJ that they were deemed legal. If this isnt the end, it is only a matter of time. Speaking of Getty and his buds, A lot of these guys have no real career or education...so if the online gig is up, their gig is up, so to speak.

I know he plays pretty big lately, plays almost all of the big weekly tournies on tilt and stars...im guessing his online roll has to be able to handle that.

[brettn]

It'll also be interesting to see how this affects the turnout at the WSOP this year with it being right around the corner. I'd imagine if the poker sites stay shut down for any extended period of time, which seems highly like at this point, you'll see attendance in all of the events plummet without the online sites running constant satellites.

[The Reckoning]

good. now i wont have to see their lame shit ads all over espn.

[tlongII]

Unbeavable

[RandomGuy]

The people will get it back at some point.

I swear such a crock of shit. The sad thing is that earlier this year we were the closest we've ever been to having an actual bill pass congress to get things done.

I have played online maybe 3 or 4 times in the past 6 months and all I had was something like 50 bucks on Full Tilt but this still makes me sad. I had several great years off of Full Tilt, Pokerstars and Party Poker.

:(

Poker bots invade the virtual casino(CLICK HERE FOR LINK TO ARTICLE) (http://marketplace.publicradio.org/display/web/2011/04/13/pm-poker-bots-invade-the-virtual-casino/)


Thing is, online poker is struggling to go legit. Half a dozen states are weighing bills that could legalize the game. Having poker rooms infested with players who may not even be human doesn't help the cause.

And there's one more problem. Poker-playing robots are getting better.

Tuomas Sandholm: Oh very much so. It used to be that poker bots were actually rather weak compared to the best human players.

Tuomas Sandholm is a computer scientist at Carnegie Mellon.

Sandholm: There has been tremendous progress and actually in heads up, limit, Texas hold 'em, the best bots have actually surpassed the best professional human players.

Michael Bowling helped build the best bot. He runs the Computer Poker Research Group at the University of Alberta. So how much money has Bowling made online?

Michael Bowling: I get that question a lot, and the answer is we don't play or program online for money.

Bowling is in this for the research. He's trying to teach computers to make great decisions even when they don't have perfect information. And poker -- where you don't know all the cards in your opponent's hand -- is a perfect test case for this kind of artificial intelligence. But Bowling doubts that the commercial poker bots that are usually sold for around $80 are any good. Otherwise, why would they be for sale?---------------------------------------------------------------

Not sure I would *ever* do online gaming.

Hell, if I didn't have any scruples, I would be partnering with some Chinese hacker/programmer right now to do just that kind of thing. Easy money.

[MannyIsGod]

yea they are blown up...it took forever to read a few pages of the thread going on about it...now i cant get it back online.


I messaged Getty on facebook and, yea, he and his buddies are sorta paranoid right now. Hopefully they can get it off eventually, but even so, i couldnt feel comfortable leaving that much cash there, unless there were explicit words from the DOJ that they were deemed legal. If this isnt the end, it is only a matter of time. Speaking of Getty and his buds, A lot of these guys have no real career or education...so if the online gig is up, their gig is up, so to speak.

I know he plays pretty big lately, plays almost all of the big weekly tournies on tilt and stars...im guessing his online roll has to be able to handle that.

Yeah man - I hope he was smart and had a good portion of his roll offline so he still has money. He'll be able to get that money back but it might take some time. I have no doubts they'll get the money back from these sites.

[MannyIsGod]

Bots are a problem in Limit hold em and they have been for quite some time. No Limit hold em is much harder to program for and a known bot can be VERY easily exploited. Yeah, it was becoming an issue though.

[MannyIsGod]

It'll also be interesting to see how this affects the turnout at the WSOP this year with it being right around the corner. I'd imagine if the poker sites stay shut down for any extended period of time, which seems highly like at this point, you'll see attendance in all of the events plummet without the online sites running constant satellites.

No doubt.

[Das Texan]

fuck the fbi.

[ManuBalboa]

Haha... isn't this fucking country great? They go after Barry Bonds, after online poker, and meanwhile not a goddamn person faces jail time for all the fraud that plunged this nation into another depression.


This. America is such a fucking joke. LOL @ people who lost money from their online poker accounts though. It got to the point years ago where it was too much of a headache to deposit money.

[DMC]

After the deal with Scott Tom and the hole cards, I pretty much wrote it all off. I never played real money anyhow but I did amass 16 million in play money. Do I get any of that back? :)

[MannyIsGod]

This. America is such a fucking joke. LOL @ people who lost money from their online poker accounts though. It got to the point years ago where it was too much of a headache to deposit money.

Depositing money was as easy as having them pull it from your bank account. It wasn't hard at all.

[Winston Wolf]

Nobody should be surprised this happened at all. You all knew you were taking a gamble, no pun intended, with online gambling in the US.

[Drewlius]

This is hell, been waiting on a 5k+ transfer for like a month, and now this happens. I personally have been playing for a living for the past 2 1/2 years, so this is very tragic imo. I'm sure most people's funds might be ok, but it will be a very long time before anyone receives them. Time to go apply at McDonalds.

[baseline bum]

Yeah man - I hope he was smart and had a good portion of his roll offline so he still has money. He'll be able to get that money back but it might take some time. I have no doubts they'll get the money back from these sites.

That's good to know. I never heard if dude got his $80,000 back since he moved to Vegas to play in the casinos a month later and I haven't seen him since.

[MannyIsGod]

Nobody should be surprised this happened at all. You all knew you were taking a gamble, no pun intended, with online gambling in the US.


This is hell, been waiting on a 5k+ transfer for like a month, and now this happens. I personally have been playing for a living for the past 2 1/2 years, so this is very tragic imo. I'm sure most people's funds might be ok, but it will be a very long time before anyone receives them. Time to go apply at McDonalds.

There's a reason I got out.

[ManuBalboa]

Depositing money was as easy as having them pull it from your bank account. It wasn't hard at all.

Is that what echecks were? I was going to go the prepaid visa card route, but threw in the towel when the suspicious person behind the counter at one of those shady cash advance stores asked for my SS# :lol


Also didn't feel like faxing over my DL to fulltilt and all of that nonsense.

[MannyIsGod]

Party asked for my DL way back in the day after I had a big cashout but that was the only time. Yeah, after the UIGEA they just started withdrawing from your account because Neteller went down. Well, they used some other ewallets but I forget their names. They lasted a few months or a year and then it was just straight bank accounts or they'd mail you a check.

Thats why they are in trouble now. They were using different ways of spoofing the banks as to where the money was going or coming from.

[duncan_21]

Felt like a punch to the gut. I've been playing for a living for about a year. Thank god I'm smart and try to keep only a small portion of my roll online. I still have about 10k online and 3k in limbo waiting to hit my bank account. A lot of this was because full tilt poker took so fucking long to get my money. Most of it I tried cashing out 7 weeks ago. Really sux. At least the nba playoffs are starting. Short term I plan on moving in w/my parents to conserve money and reassess wtf I'm going to do. Grinding a job for a lot less then wat i make now working for some idiot asshole manager doesn't sound too fun.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Yeah it sucks for those who revolved their income around their online play and pretty much did nothing else with their lives.

[Alex Haley]

Yeah it sucks for those who revolved their income around their online play and pretty much did nothing else with their lives.

Bet.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Want to make sense?

[DMC]

This is hell, been waiting on a 5k+ transfer for like a month, and now this happens. I personally have been playing for a living for the past 2 1/2 years, so this is very tragic imo. I'm sure most people's funds might be ok, but it will be a very long time before anyone receives them. Time to go apply at McDonalds.
If your alternative to online poker is McDonalds, you were fucked already.

[DMC]

felt like a punch to the gut. I've been playing for a living for about a year. Thank god i'm smart and try to keep only a small portion of my roll online. I still have about 10k online and 3k in limbo waiting to hit my bank account. A lot of this was because full tilt poker took so fucking long to get my money. Most of it i tried cashing out 7 weeks ago. Really sux. At least the nba playoffs are starting. Short term i plan on moving in w/my parents to conserve money and reassess wtf i'm going to do. Grinding a job for a lot less then wat i make now working for some idiot asshole manager doesn't sound too fun.

b&m

[Cane]

There's always farming gold in Warcraft?

[duncan_21]

b&m

Yeah the biggest cash game around here is 1/2nl. Pretty happy i have 2 yrs living expenses and a 4 year degree. I might move to. I'm gonna sit tite and see what happens in the next 2 weeks.

[MannyIsGod]

I wouldn't ever fucking play 1-2nl for a living live. Not even 2-5. Games are soft at shit at B&M but its so slow and sitting there with some of these degens is painful.

[MannyIsGod]

If your alternative to online poker is McDonalds, you were fucked already.

:lmao

[Heath Ledger]

im playing on stars right now. nothing to see here.

:wakeup

also fulltiltpoker.net site is up as is pokerstars.com and .net. absolutepoker has a nice message on it though. :)

[Heath Ledger]

scratch that. when i joined a room i got the inevitable popup message. poker is banned in your fucking country. god fuck america. brick and mortar rooms will be booming. let these internet hot shots flood those rooms pleeeeeaseeee.

[DMC]

I wouldn't ever fucking play 1-2nl for a living live. Not even 2-5. Games are soft at shit at B&M but its so slow and sitting there with some of these degens is painful.

It's a different world playing live. Instead of feeling like you have the high score, you set a time to stop and you do. If you are up you are up, if not then it is what it is. Then you take in food and whatever else the establishment has to offer. It's not for everyone, but to me, it beats playing a bunch of screen names with not even a real deck of cards.

[DMC]

scratch that. when i joined a room i got the inevitable popup message. poker is banned in your fucking country. god fuck america. brick and mortar rooms will be booming. let these internet hot shots flood those rooms pleeeeeaseeee.
This man is right on.

That's why I said b&m. You can literally double your bankroll in the next few days from these "all in" hotshots. A lot of them are Asians. They call the game "all in", and they do that for a reason. Got a high pair after the flop? All in! Got an Ace rag? All in! Pick your spots and fleece these clowns.

[MannyIsGod]

The games are easy live - there's no doubt. Everytime I've been to my local casinos I nearly crack up. But its boring as shit and slow as shit. I was used to playing 500-700 hands online per hour. Cut that down to 30 and its SO boring. Especially when you're sitting with 8 other people and you can only stand maybe one of them at any given point.]

Playing live with people you know is fun. Playing at casinos is fun in small doses but doing it the way I played online for a living? Yeah fuck that.

[mouse]

I have been telling people since 1998 your a fool if you put real money into a software or a poker online computer game where you can be playing against employees of the site or a memory chip of some sort. And I was labeled a tin foil hat conspiracy nut.

I know twice every year Manny or someone else would make a topic about how they won 800 dollars but they didn't make topics of them losing that 800 and the rest of they're collage tuition cash in the following weeks or days afterwards.

There was even a guy who had a radio show and played online with a live cam and had an open chat room where me and him had heated discussions about this very subject.

He basically told me I was full of shit about online poker being rigged soon afterwards it was all over the www that they busted another online poker site with cheating and how the webmaster of the site could see your cards and had friends enter the room to drain your money. They even admitted letting people win so they would bet more next time.

If you all are that into online gambling then lets play a cool game called "guess what hand it's in"...

I will put a rock in one of my hand you send me 50 dollars and guess which hand. keep in mind after you pick a hand I may switch hands behind my back.

[Drewlius]

I have been telling people since 1998 your a fool if you put real money into a software or a poker online computer game where you can be paying against employees of the site or a memory chip of some sort. And I was labeled a tin foil hat conspiracy nut.

I know twice every year Manny or someone else would make a topic about how they won 800 dollars but they didn't make topics of them losing that 800 and the rest of they're collage tuition cash in the following weeks or days afterwards.

There was even a guy who had a radio show and played online with a live cam and had an open chat room where me and him had heated discussions about this very subject.

He basically told me I was full of shit about online poker being rigged soon afterwards it was all over the www that they busted another online poker site with cheating and how the webmaster of the site could see your cards and had friends enter the room to drain your money. They even admitted letting people win so they would bet more next time.

If you all are that into online gambling then lets play a cool game called "guess what hand it's in"...

I will put a rock in one of my hands you send me 50 dollars and guess which hand.

lol @ suggesting this confirms online poker being rigged. not even close to what is happening right now.

[duncan_21]

This man is right on.

That's why I said b&m. You can literally double your bankroll in the next few days from these "all in" hotshots. A lot of them are Asians. They call the game "all in", and they do that for a reason. Got a high pair after the flop? All in! Got an Ace rag? All in! Pick your spots and fleece these clowns.


You don't want the good internet players to play cuz they'll crush the live players. Tough to dbl my bankroll when my roll is 1500 buyins for 1/2nl. Instead of making $60/hr now I have to sit w/a bunch of degens I can't stand for 8 hrs to make a measly $10-$15/hr. At least that's the short term plan.

[mFFL03]

Great 60 minutes story 2 years ago about an online poker cheating scandal:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/25/60minutes/main4633254.shtml

[MannyIsGod]

You don't want the good internet players to play cuz they'll crush the live players. Tough to dbl my bankroll when my roll is 1500 buyins for 1/2nl. Instead of making $60/hr now I have to sit w/a bunch of degens I can't stand for 8 hrs to make a measly $10-$15/hr. At least that's the short term plan.


Exactly. Its fucking horrible.

[Heath Ledger]

I can attest to what Manny is saying there was a time last year i was playing 30-60 hours per week. It definitely takes the fun out of the game when you grind like that. But there certainly is plenty of money to be made from the casual, drinking tourists who arent paying attention to the fact that you've been building big pots with big hands and or the nuts all night long yet they still find a reason to pay you off. My favorite line is I've got a plane to catch anyway im all in.

[Heath Ledger]

Most of the internet players i played with were either
a. too nitty, tight and predictable or
b. way to agressive. tried to bring their 6 max game skills to a full ring game
trust me that never ends well in the long run.

I welcome either category of those internet players. My favorite is the tourney players sitting down at a cash game and playing like they are in a tournament.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh thats another thing that sucks about live. Good luck finding a 6 max game. Full ring makes me slit my wrists.

[duncan_21]

Most of the internet players i played with were either
a. too nitty, tight and predictable or
b. way to agressive. tried to bring their 6 max game skills to a full ring game
trust me that never ends well in the long run.

I welcome either category of those internet players. My favorite is the tourney players sitting down at a cash game and playing like they are in a tournament.

There's a difference between winning internet player and just a random internet player tho. This is probably bad for the live games, especially the bigger games like 5/10nl, 10/20nl.

At my local casino I was the best player every time I played 1/2nl and I'm a donkament player. The game played like a 1c/2c online game.

[duncan_21]

Oh thats another thing that sucks about live. Good luck finding a 6 max game. Full ring makes me slit my wrists.

Yeah. 20 hands/hr when I'm used to 700/hr is gonna blow. If things continue to suck I might move to Canada w/a friend.

[BlackSwordsMan]

snort some coke buy a gun and show the government why you dont fuck with duncan_21

[duncan_21]

snort some coke buy a gun and show the government why you dont fuck with duncan_21

lol. ill probably move or get a regular job. I don't remember what a work week that is more then 30 hrs is like. At least we got the playoffs!!!

[BlackSwordsMan]

Spurs playoffs? You're excited? I think the gun option has a better pay off even if you die in the end

[duncan_21]

Spurs playoffs? You're excited? I think the gun option has a better pay off even if you die in the end

I'm also a Bulls fan too. :p:

[tdominate21]

This is such bullshit. Our fucking government has no business telling us what we can do with our money. It's so hypocritical. Opponents claim poker leads to financial hardship; especially the lower middle class. Yet state lotteries are continually encouraged and promoted. Who do you think are buying the most tickets? The lower middle class.

I get it. Revenues from lotteries and other vices like beer and tobacco allow our government to turn a blind eye. The ppa and all it's membership has implored the government to regulate and tax poker. There are over 10 million online poker players. But I guess nothing will be done and I'll continue to shake my head at the hypocrisy while I'm waiting five minutes in line while somebody mulls over which scratch-offs to get with their $50.

Btw, Manny, I bumped into you a few years back downtown at a barpoker tourney. I think you said you were multi-tabling the sit-n-go's on party poker at the time. Thanks for the poker advice.

[ginobili's bald spot]

This is really bad for me. fml

[DMC]

You don't want the good internet players to play cuz they'll crush the live players. Tough to dbl my bankroll when my roll is 1500 buyins for 1/2nl. Instead of making $60/hr now I have to sit w/a bunch of degens I can't stand for 8 hrs to make a measly $10-$15/hr. At least that's the short term plan.

You want them all to play so instead of seeing 20 empty tables or 3 people per table, you have a wait. People on a wait will not even wait for the button. They will just buy in.

I think online poker is a lot like the house flipping scam. People think they can sustain a living from it but realize soon it's a fairytale. Any entity that has to have it's accounts on the Isle of Man or some other offshore location, and who runs when subpoenaed by a US court isn't some entity I trust to not skim money from me, or to tweak the game to get the maximum rake they can. I also don't trust them individually to not do what Scott Tom and those other clowns did by entering tournaments under super user accounts and either colluding or flat out stealing money. There's no regulation or recourse. If you give them your bank account information you are an idiot or your account isn't that important to you.

[DMC]

This is such bullshit. Our fucking government has no business telling us what we can do with our money.

So they have on business telling you that you cannot buy an 8-ball of cocaine, a hooker or stolen merchandise? Gambling is illegal unless it's sanctioned. Sucks, but that's how it is. We are the government btw... go vote.


It's so hypocritical. Opponents claim poker leads to financial hardship; especially the lower middle class. Yet state lotteries are continually encouraged and promoted. Who do you think are buying the most tickets? The lower middle class.
Poker is fine as long as the state gets it's rake from an entity they can police. Tobacco and alcohol are still legal and they kill more people than Stalin.


I get it. Revenues from lotteries and other vices like beer and tobacco allow our government to turn a blind eye. The ppa and all it's membership has implored the government to regulate and tax poker. There are over 10 million online poker players. But I guess nothing will be done and I'll continue to shake my head at the hypocrisy while I'm waiting five minutes in line while somebody mulls over which scratch-offs to get with their $50.
I think it's going to bite them in the ass. Online sites get people interested in poker, so they will go to a casino. Poker has exploded since online sites popped up, and now the WPT is huge as is the WSOP. Surely the taxes from those things and the spending they cause is substantial.

I have a friend who is a professional poker player. According to him, some sites are more lucrative than others, but b&m is pretty much all the same. Unlike b&m however, it's very hard to detect collusion online but it occurs a lot more than people think. In fact, colluding players are likely to be the most upset over this, because they are the ones making a profit from it.

[MannyIsGod]

You want them all to play so instead of seeing 20 empty tables or 3 people per table, you have a wait. People on a wait will not even wait for the button. They will just buy in.

I think online poker is a lot like the house flipping scam. People think they can sustain a living from it but realize soon it's a fairytale. Any entity that has to have it's accounts on the Isle of Man or some other offshore location, and who runs when subpoenaed by a US court isn't some entity I trust to not skim money from me, or to tweak the game to get the maximum rake they can. I also don't trust them individually to not do what Scott Tom and those other clowns did by entering tournaments under super user accounts and either colluding or flat out stealing money. There's no regulation or recourse. If you give them your bank account information you are an idiot or your account isn't that important to you.

Bro, people do maintain a living by flipping houses and playing poker. However, I think you are right in that more people think they can maintain a living from it than actually can. But that has nothing to do with what you mentioned but rather the overall level of skill.

What AB/UB did was fucked up and I think everyone knows that. They were exposed not from the outside, but from players INSIDE the community who are vigilant. When poker bots become an issue, who finds them? The poker community. When someone fucks over someone else in the community regarding a transfer, stake or other issue the community is self correcting.

Pokerstars and Full Tilt are legit. The money is stored safely in 3rd party accounts of major European banks. I don't vouch for AB/UB obviously and the smaller sites are way more suspect but Full Tilt and Pokerstars are as legit as the casinos down my street (fuck - probably more legit but thats a whole different rant). I have no doubts everyone with money on those sites will get them back the same way that it has happened everytime something like this goes down.

What WILL happen as well as a result of this action, however, is that more small and actual shady sites will pop up. Online poker won't stop even with this, it will simply get worse and there will be more actual criminal activity as a result.

[MannyIsGod]

So they have on business telling you that you cannot buy an 8-ball of cocaine, a hooker or stolen merchandise? Gambling is illegal unless it's sanctioned. Sucks, but that's how it is. We are the government btw... go vote.


Of course they have no business telling you if you want to gt a hooker or an eightball. That they do it doesn't make it right. Buying stolen goods is obviously completely different but it doesn't surprise me that you lumped up.

There's an actual legal debate on whether online offering poker services is illegal in this country. I expect it to play out in the courts but I have no idea how good the legs of that argument are.

Just because the government makes something illegal or tries to doesn't make that action wrong.



Poker is fine as long as the state gets it's rake from an entity they can police. Tobacco and alcohol are still legal and they kill more people than Stalin.
I think it's going to bite them in the ass. Online sites get people interested in poker, so they will go to a casino. Poker has exploded since online sites popped up, and now the WPT is huge as is the WSOP. Surely the taxes from those things and the spending they cause is substantial.


They are incredibly stupid for not taxing and regulating it. Blame the GOP because this shit is ALL on them.



I have a friend who is a professional poker player. According to him, some sites are more lucrative than others, but b&m is pretty much all the same. Unlike b&m however, it's very hard to detect collusion online but it occurs a lot more than people think. In fact, colluding players are likely to be the most upset over this, because they are the ones making a profit from it.

If your friend thinks B&M is the same as online then a couple of situations come to mind.

1) he's a very high limit player. In this case B&M would actually be just as good if not better because you don't need to see many hands an hour to clear a nice profit. I doubt this is the case.

2)Otherwise he's wrong. Detecting collusion online happens all the time. I've discussed this ad nauseum here on this site so believe what you like, but your friend is absolutely wrong. And there is no way B&M can be the same because it fails in lots of ways compared to playing online such as:

-higher rake plus a toke. When I win online I don't have to tip anyone. All the sites have lower rakes, and if you're a pro and don't have a rakeback deal then you're the worst pro I've seen in my life. When I finished up, over half of my winnings were coming from rakeback because my volume was really high.

-Slower hands. 30 hands an hour with a good dealer. Fewer with a bad dealer. Thats a fraction of the amount of hands you can see online. If you have an edge over your opponents you want to see as many hands as possible because you make money on each hand. Also, you get to know your opponents MUCH faster and you have far more detail on them. I can still pull up my hand databases and look at how specific hands were played. I'd need a big ass fucking notebook to do that live.

-Multitabling. Can you sit at 6-8 tables live at the same time? No and once again this adds to the volume.

If you're a 2-3BB/100 winner online at 2-5 you're killing it. You'd probably win four or five times that rate at 2-5 live. But you'd also lose a few BB an hour due to a toking and you because you'd be seeing about 20x fewer hands its going to add up much slower.

Its no where near the same.

[Dex]

I wonder if that, like, $38 I had on Bodog is still there...I haven't opened that shit in years.

[mouse]

lol @ suggesting this confirms online poker being rigged. not even close to what is happening right now.

You can lol all you want (heads up lol is now considered gay) but i was making a point about playing poker online as a whole.

And how many people who felt it was rigged sent in numerous complaints and that alerted many different agencies to look into it. After online poker was exposed to many watch dog groups and bored ATF/FBI type organizations they began to probe it much deeper. Since then all these online poker sites have been under the microscope for all kinds of things such as taxes,underage gamblers,fraud, and so on. I was merely pointing out that these sites could shut down at anytime like they do the Pyramid schemes at work. And if you have money trapped in their system you may have a hard time retrieving it.

I did allot of online gambling with sports. I started with 50.00 dollars that the site would give you if you signed up. I put the 50.00 dollars on the Packers to beat the Cowboys then put the 100.00 I made on the Colts. then put the 200 on the Vikes then put the 300 on the undefeated Colts who lost to the 0-10 Bengals. I could have just walked away with the 300 but I was hooked.

Gambling is only second to crack cocaine when it comes to addiction and even Manny has to admit he could win 10,000.00 dollars today and let it ride tomorrow.

Point is it doesn't matter how many poker sites they shut down another one will pop up somewhere else as long as there is a demand for a product someone will supply it.

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/hooker.gif

http://www.the40yearplan.com/img/042007_weed_on_a_persian.jpg

http://www.leefilters.com/images/gobos/TGB541001.gif

http://www.rayracecar.com/driverdecals/Decals/rock/rock%20n%20roll%20guitar%20head.jpg

[ManuBalboa]

We are the government btw... go vote.


Not really. You are voting on losing "options" and have no control whatsoever over The Federal Reserve. Also, I know our boy Barney Frank has been an online poker crusader, but lol voting for that gentleman.

[duncan_21]

You want them all to play so instead of seeing 20 empty tables or 3 people per table, you have a wait. People on a wait will not even wait for the button. They will just buy in.

I think online poker is a lot like the house flipping scam. People think they can sustain a living from it but realize soon it's a fairytale. Any entity that has to have it's accounts on the Isle of Man or some other offshore location, and who runs when subpoenaed by a US court isn't some entity I trust to not skim money from me, or to tweak the game to get the maximum rake they can. I also don't trust them individually to not do what Scott Tom and those other clowns did by entering tournaments under super user accounts and either colluding or flat out stealing money. There's no regulation or recourse. If you give them your bank account information you are an idiot or your account isn't that important to you.


The 2 big sites were safe, however I would never trust absolute poker and ultimate bet. I've been playing online for 6 years and never has money been stolen from me. Online poker is nothing like a house flipping scam, lol bad analogies.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao Did Mouse say I was addicted to online poker? Holy shit next BigZak is going to tell me I'm crazy and JoeChalupa will call me boring.

[tdominate21]

You can lol all you want (heads up lol is now considered gay) but i was making a point about playing poker online as a whole.

And how many people who felt it was rigged sent in numerous complaints and that alerted many different agencies to look into it. After online poker was exposed to many watch dog groups and bored ATF/FBI type organizations they began to probe it much deeper. Since then all these online poker sites have been under the microscope for all kinds of things such as taxes,underage gamblers,fraud, and so on. I was merely pointing out that these sites could shut down at anytime like they do the Pyramid schemes at work. And if you have money trapped in their system you may have a hard time retrieving it.

I did allot of online gambling with sports. I started with 50.00 dollars that the site would give you if you signed up. I put the 50.00 dollars on the Packers to beat the Cowboys then put the 100.00 I made on the Colts. then put the 200 on the Vikes then put the 300 on the undefeated Colts who lost to the 0-10 Bengals. I could have just walked away with the 300 but I was hooked.

Gambling is only second to crack cocaine when it comes to addiction and even Manny has to admit he could win 10,000.00 dollars today and let it ride tomorrow.

Point is it doesn't matter how many poker sites they shut down another one will pop up somewhere else as long as there is a demand for a product someone will supply it.

WTF exactly is your point?

That poker has shown addictive tendencies so its dangerous and should be banned? How many people are dead because of alcohol and tobacco?

Or is it that since people have been caught cheating, poker should be banned? Maybe since certain CEO's and CFO's have cheated investors in the past, they should ban trading shares too. Down with Wall Street!

Hypocrisy man!

[mouse]

:lmao Did Mouse say I was addicted to online poker? Holy shit next BigZak is going to tell me I'm crazy and JoeChalupa will call me boring.

It is....... what it is brah! :toast

[mouse]

WTF exactly is your point?

That poker has shown addictive tendencies so its dangerous and should be banned? How many people are dead because of alcohol and tobacco?

Or is it that since people have been caught cheating, poker should be banned? Maybe since certain CEO's and CFO's have cheated investors in the past, they should ban trading shares too. Down with Wall Street!

Hypocrisy man!

Where did you see me post the word Banned?

I was replying to another poster, I love online poker. I just don't like some 23 year old hacker tempting Manny to go all in when he can see his cards.

Maybe you should read again my postings.

[DMC]

The 2 big sites were safe, however I would never trust absolute poker and ultimate bet. I've been playing online for 6 years and never has money been stolen from me. Online poker is nothing like a house flipping scam, lol bad analogies.
Hindsight is 20/20. I would never trust a video poker system that can be tweaked to gain maximum rakes. RNGs are not the problem though. The problem is that these sites are run by several people, and those people have access to things they won't tell you about.

Anyone who thinks all sites don't have the same operating software and ability to host superuser accounts is naive. They are not regulated, no oversight. That's all I need to know to not put my money with them.

[DMC]

Not really. You are voting on losing "options" and have no control whatsoever over The Federal Reserve. Also, I know our boy Barney Frank has been an online poker crusader, but lol voting for that gentleman.

I take it that you don't vote.

[MannyIsGod]

Hindsight is 20/20. I would never trust a video poker system that can be tweaked to gain maximum rakes. RNGs are not the problem though. The problem is that these sites are run by several people, and those people have access to things they won't tell you about.

Anyone who thinks all sites don't have the same operating software and ability to host superuser accounts is naive. They are not regulated, no oversight. That's all I need to know to not put my money with them.

There actually is oversight. They are audited on a regular basis and as I pointed out the poker community provides oversight. How do you think AP/UB's scam was unearthed?

[tdominate21]

Where did you see me post the word Banned?

I was replying to another poster, I love online poker. I just don't like some 23 year old hacker tempting Manny to go all in when he can see his cards.

Maybe you should read again my postings.




I have been telling people since 1998 your a fool if you put real money into a software or a poker online computer game where you can be playing against employees of the site or a memory chip of some sort. And I was labeled a tin foil hat conspiracy nut.

I know twice every year Manny or someone else would make a topic about how they won 800 dollars but they didn't make topics of them losing that 800 and the rest of they're collage tuition cash in the following weeks or days afterwards.

There was even a guy who had a radio show and played online with a live cam and had an open chat room where me and him had heated discussions about this very subject.

He basically told me I was full of shit about online poker being rigged soon afterwards it was all over the www that they busted another online poker site with cheating and how the webmaster of the site could see your cards and had friends enter the room to drain your money. They even admitted letting people win so they would bet more next time.

If you all are that into online gambling then lets play a cool game called "guess what hand it's in"...

I will put a rock in one of my hand you send me 50 dollars and guess which hand. keep in mind after you pick a hand I may switch hands behind my back.

That was your earlier post. It's a different discussion for a different topic. But when you post it on this topic thread, naturally anybody is going to view this as an argument in support of these indictments.

And again, your post I quoted earlier can clearly be interpreted that you're against online poker because of addiction and cheating.

If the biggest concern is cheating, then just regulate it. I guarantee, if cheaters know that they face stiff punishment if caught cheating, you'll see VERY few occurrences.

[DMC]

Bro, people do maintain a living by flipping houses and playing poker. However, I think you are right in that more people think they can maintain a living from it than actually can. But that has nothing to do with what you mentioned but rather the overall level of skill.

What AB/UB did was fucked up and I think everyone knows that. They were exposed not from the outside, but from players INSIDE the community who are vigilant. When poker bots become an issue, who finds them? The poker community. When someone fucks over someone else in the community regarding a transfer, stake or other issue the community is self correcting.

That's misleading (inside the community). They were just players on the site, people who were ripped off in a tournament and requested hand histories. They were not inside of anything. The "community" you speak of is just a term for "customer", just as you and I are not the HEB community because we shop there. So, it was not revealed from anyone on the inside. In fact, the insiders denied it. Were it not for a fuck up with sending everyone's hand history, that would never have been known.

This reminds me of people who think the next President will be the honest one, even though none of the rest were.

Unregulated industry has never proven to be honest over time.


Pokerstars and Full Tilt are legit. The money is stored safely in 3rd party accounts of major European banks. I don't vouch for AB/UB obviously and the smaller sites are way more suspect but Full Tilt and Pokerstars are as legit as the casinos down my street (fuck - probably more legit but thats a whole different rant). I have no doubts everyone with money on those sites will get them back the same way that it has happened everytime something like this goes down.

They are no more legit than UB was. Just because they are popular doesn't make them legit. They are not regulated by the gaming commission, at least their online sites are not.


What WILL happen as well as a result of this action, however, is that more small and actual shady sites will pop up. Online poker won't stop even with this, it will simply get worse and there will be more actual criminal activity as a result.
I doubt that will happen. If that could happen it would happen. There are hundreds of thousands of con artists who spend countless hours in shithole nations trying to concoct scams to make money. They aren't waiting for Pokerstars to fail.

[MannyIsGod]

You obviously don't know very much about online poker or the community, DMC. I suggest some research at twoplustwo.com then coming back to discuss it. You're very wrong on many accounts.

Regarding your last point there, of course there will be smaller and shadier sites popping up now. The Justice Dept didn't go after all of the sites they just went after the big 3. A little understanding of the history of any prohibition will prove this to be the same story just a different day.

[mouse]

That was your earlier post. It's a different discussion for a different topic. But when you post it on this topic thread, naturally anybody is going to view this as an argument in support of these indictments.

And again, your post I quoted earlier can clearly be interpreted that you're against online poker because of addiction and cheating.

If the biggest concern is cheating, then just regulate it. I guarantee, if cheaters know that they face stiff punishment if caught cheating, you'll see VERY few occurrences.

Did you say regulate it?

[tdominate21]

Anyway, I imagine online poker will be legalized and played on a new poker site. But it sucks that we'll have to wait more than a year for it.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, another affect is illegal live games. When I lived in San Antonio I knew of tons of live games with insane rakes. These games weren't very safe as they were at risk of either law enforcement raids or worse, robberies. You can look up these instances on MYSA.com I'm sure and fewer online games will certainly push people in that direction as well.

[mouse]

Anyway, I imagine online poker will be legalized and played on a new poker site. But it sucks that we'll have to wait more than a year for it.


If you think you have to wait a year to put your credit card on another online poker site then I have some Ryan leaf Rookie cards to sell you.

[MannyIsGod]

You can do it now. No need to wait a year.

[MannyIsGod]

I wouldn't play on any of the sites left, though. Some are OK, but yeah, no.

[tdominate21]

Did you say regulate it?
Yeah regulate it. The only person who ever saw other people's hole cards was a top level executive. Yeah, this is open news and may have happened again but these sites cant police, only ban and withhold funds. Worth the risk for any cheater. But anyway, it's all about statistics. Even the best players can only win at a certain rate. This executive was caught because his win rate (which is open to the public through certain websites) was abnormal. it's not too hard to find suspect players, especially if you're Big Brother.

[mouse]

Yeah regulate it. The only person who ever saw other people's hole cards was a top level executive. Yeah, this is open news and may have happened again but these sites cant police, only ban and withhold funds. Worth the risk for any cheater. But anyway, it's all about statistics. Even the best players can only win at a certain rate. This executive was caught because his win rate (which is open to the public through certain websites) was abnormal. it's not too hard to find suspect players, especially if you're Big Brother.

can you regulate medicare fraud? Can you regulate government corruption?

Can you regulate tainted beef in our stores? what makes you think you can regulate people online?

[Fabbs]

can you regulate medicare fraud? Can you regulate government corruption?

Can you regulate tainted beef in our stores? what makes you think you can regulate people online?
:clap

[tdominate21]

can you regulate medicare fraud? Can you regulate government corruption?

Can you regulate tainted beef in our stores? what makes you think you can regulate people online?

Fair point. But i think the business model has already been put forth by pokerstars and fulltilt. Absolute poker used the CEREUS poker network which had previously shown vulnerabilities. They knew about the cheating months in advance. They answered complaints by saying no cheating was happening. Why? because they are a business that surely isn't going to shut down and investigate and lose millions in revenue now and 100's of millions later through bad press. Why hasn't pokerstars and Full tilt had the same problem? Because you need someone on the inside. Players win rate's are available to the public. If it's regulated, then employees are subject to government terms (background checks, surveillance, lie detector tests, heavy punishment, etc.). I swear, the ppa is the only organization begging to be taxed. Just let us play.

Could cheating happen? sure. You just gave two examples.

[Fabbs]

Sounds good, but are you going to trust govt peoples track record?

EPA. Here to regulate air quality. NYCity after years of scammy building practices had God only knows what kind of poisonous crap come down in the fallen buildings at 9/11. Dust all over the place. EPA: "Oh yeah it's safe, don't flee the scene workers or residents."

Later. "Oopsies, yeah we lied. Sorry about your lungs and cancer. Can't do nothing about it now tho."

[Cry Havoc]

Haha... isn't this fucking country great? They go after Barry Bonds, after online poker, and meanwhile not a goddamn person faces jail time for all the fraud that plunged this nation into another depression.

Sigh.

:depressed

[ALVAREZ6]

Haha... isn't this fucking country great? They go after Barry Bonds, after online poker, and meanwhile not a goddamn person faces jail time for all the fraud that plunged this nation into another depression.
+1

And :cry :cry :cry over marijuana :cry :cry :cry rather than go after real drugs.



:cry :cry :cry weed :cry :cry :cry

[mouse]

^ good points being posted ^

But lets face it people love to gamble and don't want to be told what they can or can't do with they're hard earned cash.

I think one solution is to have Legit casinos in all states. I doubt many people who live in Atlantic city or Vegas do much online poker playing when they can just take a 5 minute ride and play with real people or a machine that pays right there on the spot.
Rather than play against some images on they're computer monitors.

After all how many in this topic knows anyone who pays their rent each month with the winnings from online poker? And yet I met many in Vegas that do just that.

Not to mention drinking shots of crown for a dollar from a girl wearing sexy lingerie, you can't beat it.

[BlackSwordsMan]

Alvarzez I know you're from Brazil where law doesn't matter but in America it does.

[Pero]

Alvarzez I know you're from Brazil where law doesn't matter but in America it does.

:lmao

[boutons_deux]

"law doesn't matter but in America it does."

esp if you're poor, black, brown, then the law is extremely well enforced.

if you're white and wealthy, at worst, you "settle" for a no-guilt-admission handslap, no arrest record destroying your job opps.

[Ghazi]

:(

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Alvarzez I know you're from Brazil where law doesn't matter but in America it does.

BSM I know you're from USA where geography isn't a strong suit but Alvarez isn't Brazilian.

[MannyIsGod]

BSM I know you're from USA where geography isn't a strong suit but Alvarez isn't Brazilian.

:lmao

[MannyIsGod]

http://theandrewli.blogspot.com/2011/04/gg.html

Pretty impessed PS is calling all of their VIPs.

[ginobili's bald spot]

I guess I don't get a call since I'm only a platinum star.

[ALVAREZ6]

Alvarzez I know you're from Brazil where law doesn't matter but in America it does.
Oh please, get real you fuckhead, do you approve of all of the US's laws? Stop being such a sensitive cunt to the country's criticisms, you could bash Argentina for all of the right reasons and I would gladly join you, there are flaws almost everywhere, and obviously more in Argentina vs. US. Congrats!!!! This is why I live in the US as well.

Do you like having all of these crazies so heavily influence the US's laws? You're right, law does matter in 'Merica, where on a federal level people who are gay by nature are not allowed to marry.



CROFL @ the Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage as the legal union between a man and woman. (actually called by the name :lol, wooo!! you defend that marriage!!!!)

Politicians: And we are not allowing our religious beliefs influence our opinion on this matter. We simply believe marriage is between a man and woman.

-Well, why is this so?

Politicians: Well, marriage has always been between a man and woman! It's just how it always was.

-Great. :tu



Stop seeing shit the wrong way, I only want to see progress on all fronts. Things like gambling and prostitution should be legal.

[Jimcs50]

I have $1700 in my acct.

The US govt has no right to that money. Especially the money that players from the 90 other countries that have money in there, where online poker is legal.

[RandomGuy]

Our fucking government has no business telling us what we can do with our money.

Beware the grand sweeping pronouncements, lest someone point out that this particular statement could be used to justify all manner of things, like child prostitution.

There are definitely things the government should be telling us what not to do with our money, and should throw us in jail if we do it.

That said, the ban on online poker is not something I am uncomfortable with. I don't partake, nor do I have a desire to. It is easily something that weak people can get actively and destructively addicted to.

The question of whether such a ban is really feasible on the other hand, is another matter entirely. I wouldn't want a whole lot of effort put into enforcing it.

[MannyIsGod]

Beware the grand sweeping pronouncements, lest someone point out that this particular statement could be used to justify all manner of things, like child prostitution.


Thats complete bullshit. The government has no grounds on what we do with our money with the obvious stipulation that it not harm anyone without consent. A child is obviously not able to give consent, but the statement can be used to show that the government should not stop prostitution (and it shouldn't).



There are definitely things the government should be telling us what not to do with our money, and should throw us in jail if we do it.


Not between consenting adults that are doing no harm to anyone. Show me a justifiable case where the government should have a right to limit the rights of consenting adults that are harming no one.



That said, the ban on online poker is not something I am uncomfortable with. I don't partake, nor do I have a desire to. It is easily something that weak people can get actively and destructively addicted to.

The question of whether such a ban is really feasible on the other hand, is another matter entirely. I wouldn't want a whole lot of effort put into enforcing it.

Weak people can be addicted to many things. You can't prevent it.

[RandomGuy]

Thats complete bullshit. The government has no grounds on what we do with our money with the obvious stipulation that it not harm anyone without consent. A child is obviously not able to give consent, but the statement can be used to show that the government should not stop prostitution (and it shouldn't).

Not between consenting adults that are doing no harm to anyone. Show me a justifiable case where the government should have a right to limit the rights of consenting adults that are harming no one.

Weak people can be addicted to many things. You can't prevent it.

It was something of a bullshit comparison. Online gaming is NOT child prostitution, nowhere near it. The statement was more to illustrate that sweeping "get the government outta my business" is not always all that clear cut, and can be open to common sense applications. I should have made that a bit more clear, though.

I don't, however buy the "no harm" bit. It can be addictive like any drug.

While I am not altogether uncomfortable with the ban, I am by far not really a proponent. I just have no dog in the fight. It isn't my thing.

If people really feel strongly enough about it, lift it. Tax it appropriately, and use the taxes to fund treatment of gambling addiction.

In that there are a lot of parallels to drugs here, IMO. I don't think most drugs should be legal for the same reasons, and with the same policy solution.

Most people can do a few hands/joints/whatever without harm to themselves, and some genuinely enjoy it. No harm, no foul, and as you point out, as long as no one really gets harmed.

[Soul_Patch]

I get sooooo tired of the argument that "weak people can get addicted, therefore it is OK to outlaw it"

Fuck weak people. They suck in almost all facets of life, but does the federal government need to protect them from everything?

They may forget to look both ways before crossing the street, and die...should we outlaw cars?

They may eat too much fried chicken and hamburgers because they cant control themselves...should we outlaw that?

Give me a break already. If we can some how justify cigarettes to be legal, yet playing poker among consenting adults, illegal...we have some seriously fucked up people in power.

[MannyIsGod]

It was something of a bullshit comparison. Online gaming is NOT child prostitution, nowhere near it. The statement was more to illustrate that sweeping "get the government outta my business" is not always all that clear cut, and can be open to common sense applications. I should have made that a bit more clear, though.

I don't, however buy the "no harm" bit. It can be addictive like any drug.

While I am not altogether uncomfortable with the ban, I am by far not really a proponent. I just have no dog in the fight. It isn't my thing.

If people really feel strongly enough about it, lift it. Tax it appropriately, and use the taxes to fund treatment of gambling addiction.

In that there are a lot of parallels to drugs here, IMO. I don't think most drugs should be legal for the same reasons, and with the same policy solution.

Most people can do a few hands/joints/whatever without harm to themselves, and some genuinely enjoy it. No harm, no foul, and as you point out, as long as no one really gets harmed.

People have sex addictions. Are you prepared to outlaw sex? People can be addicted to nearly every behavior and can take it to extremes. That isn't and shouldn't be an argument for government morality.

But you know the real kicker, RG. When was the last time prohibition stopped addictions? The thing about an addiction is that if you have one the law doesn't tend to stop you, now does it?

I'm tired of having others morality enforced on me. Its asinine. Its really fucking stupid consider the same people preaching this are some of the same who complain about the deficit yet turn away some of the most lucrative tax money out there. Texas could solve a lot of its education funding by legalizing gambling.

[ManuBalboa]

We should ban fast food joints. Americans are addicted to those.
Let's ban alcohol, alcoholics kill people.


What's the REAL angle on not wanting to legalize gambling? The Christian moral bullshit?

[ALVAREZ6]

I get sooooo tired of the argument that "weak people can get addicted, therefore it is OK to outlaw it"

Fuck weak people. They suck in almost all facets of life, but does the federal government need to protect them from everything?

They may forget to look both ways before crossing the street, and die...should we outlaw cars?

They may eat too much fried chicken and hamburgers because they cant control themselves...should we outlaw that?

Give me a break already. If we can some how justify cigarettes to be legal, yet playing poker among consenting adults, illegal...we have some seriously fucked up people in power.

+1

Survival of the fittest my friends. RandomGuy, I'd imagine you're a dude that's well aware of the theory :lol

And please, don't get me started on the drug comparison and the war on drugs debate. I am probably more passionate about that subject than religion...or, more accurately stated, I really hope I don't get started on that myself such that it consumes way more of my time that I want to spare :lol.

Weak people are and do find ways to do drugs in a destructive manner already and have been for forever. With some better legislation and regulation, the figure actually would probably decrease, and it would allow smart, responsible adults who know exactly what they're doing to do exactly that.



Ron Paul, fuck yeah! :lol

[z0sa]

People come to Washington believing it is the center of power. I know I did. It was only much later that I learned that Washington is a steering wheel that's not connected to an engine.

-- Richard Goodwin

[Heath Ledger]

There's a difference between winning internet player and just a random internet player tho. This is probably bad for the live games, especially the bigger games like 5/10nl, 10/20nl.

At my local casino I was the best player every time I played 1/2nl and I'm a donkament player. The game played like a 1c/2c online game.

Im not saying all internet poker players that play live were in one of those two categories but a good majority of them were. Of course I saw some that were very good live players as well.

[BackStabber]

I saw ads in ESPN magazine for one of these sites. :cuss

[BlackSwordsMan]

Listen I know brazil doesn't have extradition laws and you may or may not have participated in the war effort of a certain fuhrer but you need to respect the law.

[tdominate21]

I'm tired of having others morality enforced on me. Its asinine. Its really fucking stupid consider the same people preaching this are some of the same who complain about the deficit yet turn away some of the most lucrative tax money out there. Texas could solve a lot of its education funding by legalizing gambling.
+1


While a new statewide poll shows that 86 percent of Texans believe the public should vote on whether to legalize casinos, an influential Texas Senate chairman with jurisdiction over gambling said Monday he has no intention of advancing the necessary legislation.

“There is no support in my committee,” said state Sen. Robert Duncan, R-Lubbock. “I just don't think there are the votes in the Senate. I don't see any chance of passage.”

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/article/Casinos-legalized-No-dice-1311795.php#ixzz1JwWPLYSo


Unbelievable ASS. :bang

[TDMVPDPOY]

going after the poker players instead of the dirty bankers who cause the GFC while still gettin incentives and bonuses for the recovery...WTF

[Soul_Patch]

Could you imagine how bad ass the Riverwalk would be with some big casino's down there. How huge that would be for San Antonio??

[The Reckoning]

i can only imagine...do do do da doe di doe

[Pero]

Oh please, get real you fuckhead, do you approve of all of the US's laws? Stop being such a sensitive cunt to the country's criticisms, you could bash Argentina for all of the right reasons and I would gladly join you, there are flaws almost everywhere, and obviously more in Argentina vs. US. Congrats!!!! This is why I live in the US as well.

Do you like having all of these crazies so heavily influence the US's laws? You're right, law does matter in 'Merica, where on a federal level people who are gay by nature are not allowed to marry.



CROFL @ the Defense of Marriage Act, which defines marriage as the legal union between a man and woman. (actually called by the name :lol, wooo!! you defend that marriage!!!!)

Politicians: And we are not allowing our religious beliefs influence our opinion on this matter. We simply believe marriage is between a man and woman.

-Well, why is this so?

Politicians: Well, marriage has always been between a man and woman! It's just how it always was.

-Great. :tu



Stop seeing shit the wrong way, I only want to see progress on all fronts. Things like gambling and prostitution should be legal.

:lol

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.cnbc.com/id/42649117

Interesting take. I didn't even think of the marketing money the US misses out on.

[z0sa]

One could easily argue that things like legalized hard drugs, prostitution, and rampant gambling do indeed hinder progress.

[MannyIsGod]

Then argue it. I'm all ears.

[MannyIsGod]

Rampant gambling as in State Lotteries?

[MannyIsGod]

Hard drugs as in the ones that are legal and sold by the cartels known as Merck and Phizer?

[MannyIsGod]

Prostitution ....well I got nothing on this case.

[Slomo]

Prostitution ....well I got nothing on this case.

Reality/dating shows?

[z0sa]

Do you think those things are hindering 'progress'?

Perhaps you should define what your opinion of 'progress' is, Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

Do you think those things are hindering 'progress'?

Perhaps you should define what your opinion of 'progress' is, Manny.

What? You presented the argument that those issues could hinder progress, not me. I gave you examples of how those actions are very much legal right now. I'd also argue that whether or not (and I have in this thread and many others) something hinders progress, making an action or vice illegal doesn't make it disappear.

I know one thing is for sure, the war on drugs had hindered progress in Mexico quite well.

[Slomo]

I can pretty easily prove that illegal prostitution and gambling are in fact hindering progress.

I'm 50/50 on the hard drug issue (well I'm more like 49/51 in favor of lagalization, but it is less clear).

[z0sa]

FWIW, I think cocaine and marijuana should be legal - the harder drugs are too powerful, too addicting, and too life destroying. Even the educated and self controlling are destroyed by them.

Prostitution, no. Organized prostitution invariably leads to people being mentally and physically abused.

Gambling, I couldn't care less about.

[z0sa]

Manny,

I said 'one' could make an easy argument. Not that that person is me, but those arguments do abound. In fact, those arguments are technically why we have a humongous failure known as the War on Drugs.

[MannyIsGod]

Gotcha.

[ALVAREZ6]

FWIW, I think cocaine and marijuana should be legal - the harder drugs are too powerful, too addicting, and too life destroying. Even the educated and self controlling are destroyed by them.

Prostitution, no. Organized prostitution invariably leads to people being mentally and physically abused.

Gambling, I couldn't care less about.

..cROFLAMAOA what?!?!!? Yeah, really does that in the Netherlands, where the state insures all prostitutes are consenting adult women (over age of 18) and regularly checked for STDs. On the other hand, illegal prostitution in Thailand is quite the effective system, where young girls are essentially kidnapped and enslaved intro prostitution and have no say whatsoever on how many cocks they take per day, which often ranges from 20-50, all against their consent. Yup, that illegal system sure works well :tu

[Slomo]

FWIW, I think cocaine and marijuana should be legal - the harder drugs are too powerful, too addicting, and too life destroying. Even the educated and self controlling are destroyed by them.

Prostitution, no. Organized prostitution invariably leads to people being mentally and physically abused.

Gambling, I couldn't care less about.

Illegal prostitution (ie USA): Abused women by criminal pimps, that have nowhere to go since they are by definition criminals themselves. Profits go to organized criminal orgs and the whole thing is basically the STD version of Russian roulette (except the odds are worse). All that without even getting into the side effects of underage prostitutes, human trafficking and similar.

Legal prostitution (ie Holland): Women are safe (in case of trouble they call the police), healthy (mandatory health check and monitoring of STDs), profit goes to the worker, they pay taxes which in turn finance preventive programs. Organized crime is effectively excluded from the flow of money.

If you want to eliminate prostitution, drugs and other vices, you have to eliminate the desire for them (good luck with that btw!). Legalizing them offers the possibility to address and bring them to the open and combat them, during which you are at least limiting the damages of said vices.

Eradicating human's desires for sex/drugs/... by force/law is just not a feasible option.

[Soul_Patch]

Amsterdam is the only place on earth i've ever been mugged...or at least attempted. The dude wasn't very threatening, so i just ignored him and walked into a bar to get away from his attempts. Amsterdams fairly strict gun laws probably made this guy's mugging life hard. lol...he came at me with a small stick from a tree, that broke when he hit me on the shoulder...i said, "wtf is your problem." He told me to give him my cash (holding his broken stick). I laughed and said go fuck yourself, and went into a bar....lol...

Amsterdam, given its liberal drug and prostitution policies, is one of the most beautiful places ive ever been to though. Keep all the drug/sex shops in one area of town and let people decide whether or not they want to see it or not. Very simple in my opinion. Why would this be so hard...let the people decide, very very simple.

[CavsSuperFan]

The Department of Justice shut down the biggest online poker sites for violating the law...None of the poker players saw it coming because they were all wearing those stupid sunglasses...

[4>0rings]

Amsterdam is the only place on earth i've ever been mugged...or at least attempted. The dude wasn't very threatening, so i just ignored him and walked into a bar to get away from his attempts. Amsterdams fairly strict gun laws probably made this guy's mugging life hard. lol...he came at me with a small stick from a tree, that broke when he hit me on the shoulder...i said, "wtf is your problem." He told me to give him my cash (holding his broken stick). I laughed and said go fuck yourself, and went into a bar....lol...

:lol He must of thought a tourist was easy prey.

[DMC]

:wakeup

[DMC]

You obviously don't know very much about online poker or the community, DMC. I suggest some research at twoplustwo.com then coming back to discuss it. You're very wrong on many accounts.

Regarding your last point there, of course there will be smaller and shadier sites popping up now. The Justice Dept didn't go after all of the sites they just went after the big 3. A little understanding of the history of any prohibition will prove this to be the same story just a different day.

I knew about this as it was developing. That's not oversight. When customers report getting ripped off, that's not oversight. Oversight comes from 3rd party agencies, not from customers.

Spin it how you wish, oversight is not from customers.

[MannyIsGod]

A form of oversight definitely comes from the customers. As I said, you obviously know little. These companies are regulated by the EU and the individual members of the EU. The United States isn't the body capable of regulation.

[DMC]

A form of oversight definitely comes from the customers. As I said, you obviously know little. These companies are regulated by the EU and the individual members of the EU. The United States isn't the body capable of regulation.

There's a difference between a watchdog and oversight. You need to get that much clear.

A watchdog just alarms when something doesn't look right. Oversight is regulatory and has authority over that which is being regulated.

Greenpeace is a watchdog

EPA has oversight

The EU isn't the US. It has no oversight in the US. Things in the US that have no oversight or regulation in the US are not culpable for their transgressions towards Americans.

Even oil companies like BP have US oversight and regulation. You don't depend on community watchdogs to tell you that BP isn't cleaning up the oil in the Gulf. You depend upon the oversight committees to police that shit and the regulatory agencies to enforce it.

I have been reading twoplustwo for a long time. I know about potripper and all the bullshit. It's not insider information.

[MannyIsGod]

Ugh, you're playing stupid semantics when you know my point. In any case, what is the EU's regulation of these companies?

EU regulation affects US customers because they play at the same tables. Everything is handled in the same way. Apparently the only nation on this planet able to regulate is the United States. Thats pretty funny.

You also fail to mention that many of these companies are publicly traded. The customer's accounts are trusts which are not actually held by the company, by law. There's a lot you just make up.

The AP/UB situation happened but as was pointed out it was also caught. I'd love for you to make the argument that this type of situation has never happened in a live casino (or every other business for that matter).

You just don't know what you're talking about. Its OK. But just stop talking out of your ass. Just actually learn about what you're talking about first. God damn.

[DMC]

Ugh, you're playing stupid semantics when you know my point. In any case, what is the EU's regulation of these companies?

You just don't know what you're talking about. Its OK. But just stop talking out of your ass. Just actually learn about what you're talking about first. God damn.
You keep saying I don't know what I am talking about but then you say I am hammering you on semantics. One of us doesn't know what he's talking about and it's not me. You have an agenda because you have a horse in this race. I don't.

Arguing ad nauseum as you are doing doesn't make your case more solid.

1. There's no oversight in the US
2. There's no regulation in the US
3. Watchdogs do not provide regulatory oversight.

Maybe if you quit using that lame ass excuse (players providing oversight) I will quit using that response.

If there was oversight, that kind of shit could not go on for so long.

[MannyIsGod]

If there was oversight, that kind of shit could not go on for so long.

:lmao

Oh REALLY?

Yeah, I'm sure US regulation prevents that from happening everywhere.

Thats fucking laughable.

Do you want to just take back what you just said or should I find the pretty much limitless examples of corruption and incompetence associated with US regulation?

[MannyIsGod]

I hear US regulation of illegal drugs is working out spectacularly. The oversight of the DEA has been impeccable and once instituted swiftly removed the issue.

[MannyIsGod]

Also, I hear the SEC's oversight prevented Bernie Madoff from swindling money from a lot of people. They stopped him in no time.

[z0sa]

..cROFLAMAOA what?!?!!? Yeah, really does that in the Netherlands, where the state insures all prostitutes are consenting adult women (over age of 18) and regularly checked for STDs. On the other hand, illegal prostitution in Thailand is quite the effective system, where young girls are essentially kidnapped and enslaved intro prostitution and have no say whatsoever on how many cocks they take per day, which often ranges from 20-50, all against their consent. Yup, that illegal system sure works well :tu

I think y'all definitely need to do some more research, specifically on how the Netherlands government has been cracking down on the red light districts and the abuse and organized crime that were and probably still is taking place there. Also, prostitution has barely been legal there since 2000. I don't think one can take a lot from such a small time span concerning something that is constantly linked to physical and mental abuse as well as rampant criminal activity.

AP story concerning the Amsterdam city buying 1/3 of the Red Light district simply to stop the criminal activity taking place behind its doors: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16682/a-third-of-amsterdams-red-light-district-brothels-to-close-in-crackdown-on-crime

And, you misread: I didn't say legal or illegal, I said ORGANIZED. Any kind of organized prostitution, be it legal or illegal, invariably leads to abuse of the worst kind. And while illegal prostitution may be the worse of two evils, I don't think legalizing it is the answer.

[DMC]

I hear US regulation of illegal drugs is working out spectacularly. The oversight of the DEA has been impeccable and once instituted swiftly removed the issue.
The US doesn't regulate illegal drugs. They only regulate legal ones. You cannot regulate things that are already illegal.

However, this is a red herring. It has nothing to do with whether or not poker sites are regulated.

[DMC]

Also, I hear the SEC's oversight prevented Bernie Madoff from swindling money from a lot of people. They stopped him in no time.

Cherry pick all you like. There's a reason oversight and regulation exists. If a casino was fixing games, and it was as obvious as what was happening online, the gaming commission would have acted on it. The casino would not have been left to police itself.

Also, you could have put all that into one post.

The :lmao is just an indication that you don't have a leg to stand on.

When you say "it was caught", well of course otherwise you wouldn't know about it, which begs the question.... what isn't being caught? Before it was caught, everyone was calling these people full of shit, saying they were just pissed and sore losers. You are using the same argument, except you are allowing this one exception because you cannot deny it.

When you find a roach in your kitchen, it's not the only roach in your house.

[ALVAREZ6]

I think y'all definitely need to do some more research, specifically on how the Netherlands government has been cracking down on the red light districts and the abuse and organized crime that were and probably still is taking place there. Also, prostitution has barely been legal there since 2000. I don't think one can take a lot from such a small time span concerning something that is constantly linked to physical and mental abuse as well as rampant criminal activity.

AP story concerning the Amsterdam city buying 1/3 of the Red Light district simply to stop the criminal activity taking place behind its doors: http://www.religionnewsblog.com/16682/a-third-of-amsterdams-red-light-district-brothels-to-close-in-crackdown-on-crime

And, you misread: I didn't say legal or illegal, I said ORGANIZED. Any kind of organized prostitution, be it legal or illegal, invariably leads to abuse of the worst kind. And while illegal prostitution may be the worse of two evils, I don't think legalizing it is the answer.
Well I was actually thinking of that before posting, but let's be real, where the hell is prostitution not organized? You have organized prostitution almost everywhere. I think it would be a much better system with more control and regulation if it were legal.

[MannyIsGod]

The US doesn't regulate illegal drugs. They only regulate legal ones. You cannot regulate things that are already illegal.

However, this is a red herring. It has nothing to do with whether or not poker sites are regulated.


Cherry pick all you like. There's a reason oversight and regulation exists. If a casino was fixing games, and it was as obvious as what was happening online, the gaming commission would have acted on it. The casino would not have been left to police itself.

Also, you could have put all that into one post.

The :lmao is just an indication that you don't have a leg to stand on.

When you say "it was caught", well of course otherwise you wouldn't know about it, which begs the question.... what isn't being caught? Before it was caught, everyone was calling these people full of shit, saying they were just pissed and sore losers. You are using the same argument, except you are allowing this one exception because you cannot deny it.

When you find a roach in your kitchen, it's not the only roach in your house.

Grasping for straws? You made a really stupid statement that is obviously easily contradicted and I'm grasping for straws? YOU said that US regulation would somehow prevent these situations from occurring. That is absolutely false. US regulation never prevents bad situations from occurring and those are just two examples of that. Prohibition is a form of regulation so of course the United States regulates the use of illegal drugs by prohibiting it all together.

It doesn't even matter because its all moot since these sites ARE regulated. The United States isn't the only government and it certainly does not have the best track record for regulation so for you to somehow act as if the absence of US regulation means that these sites are completely unregulated and lawless is simply wrong on a fundamental level.

What is really grasping for straws is your attempt to say there is a lot of scamming going on based one one scam and the unknown. I believe the burden of proof belongs to show there IS scamming and not that no scamming exists.

The track record is there. Full Tilt and Stars have done absolutely nothing to give anyone a fear at all that they are somehow running roughshod with anyones money. These companies pull in billions in revenue annually so for them to risk that money for gains much smaller would be some of the worst business practices imaginable. The fundamental lack of systematic motivation to have an illegitimate operation due to the incredible profit margins of a legitimate business model is really the largest hole in your argument.

The actions of Full Tilt and Poker Stars prove this. They've covered all player deposits and withdrawals in the face of processors who have been fraudulent, they have agreed to return players money with the DOJ as of today, and there have been no major incidents of fraud involved with these casinos.

So yeah, you pretty much have nothing to stand on. GG and ship it.

[MannyIsGod]

But yeah, Casino regulation in the United States is perfect.

http://www.casinofreephilly.org/casino-facts/gambling-and-organized-crime

[midnightpulp]

The games are easy live - there's no doubt. Everytime I've been to my local casinos I nearly crack up. But its boring as shit and slow as shit. I was used to playing 500-700 hands online per hour. Cut that down to 30 and its SO boring. Especially when you're sitting with 8 other people and you can only stand maybe one of them at any given point.]

Playing live with people you know is fun. Playing at casinos is fun in small doses but doing it the way I played online for a living? Yeah fuck that.

And seeing so few hands per hour live, a bad run can last months before the cards start to break even again.

I remember how pissed I was when Party Poker restricted their service to US players after the UIGEA was passed. '04-05 era Party Poker was a gold rush. You could multitable 1-2 limit and pull in a grand a week. The games were so soft, all that was basically required to be successful was to stick to basic starting hand strategy.

Last time I seriously played was in '07, on Stars, and Christ were those games rocky. Both in Limit and No-Limit.

[MannyIsGod]

And seeing so few hands per hour live, a bad run can last months before the cards start to break even again.

I remember how pissed I was when Party Poker restricted their service to US players after the UIGEA was passed. '04-05 era Party Poker was a gold rush. You could multitable 1-2 limit and pull in a grand a week. The games were so soft, all that was basically required to be successful was to stick to basic starting hand strategy.

Last time I seriously played was in '07, on Stars, and Christ were those games rocky. Both in Limit and No-Limit.
R
Limit was virtually unbeatable at the low levels after UIGEA. NL was still beatable but definitely not what it was before UIGEA. Even a breakeven player could make a good amount of money with rakeback if they put in a large volume.

But yeah, a really really simple TAG style would murder limit back in the day. Easiest money ever.

[tdominate21]

edit- double post

[tdominate21]

http://www.gambling911.com/poker/online-poker-likely-be-legalized-us-year%E2%80%99s-end-061011.html


Online Poker Likely to be Legalized in US by Year’s End
[/B]
The same day that Nevada’s Governor signed a bill into law that would allow online poker operators to do business in the state, US federal efforts also appear to be moving forward

Nevada Governor Brian Sandoval signed a bill that would ultimately make Nevada home to various legalized Internet gambling sites in the US with an initial focus on Web poker rooms.


Not the most reliable source, but here's to hoping. It looks like casinos are chomping at the bit to get in on this after the new poker bill passed in Nevada. Sucks for Pokerstars and Full Tilt though.