Bruce Was Built For This

[timvp]

Whether the Spurs win the championship or not will be in the hands of one man. And it's not who you expect. This is the time for Bruce Bowen to shine. It's his time to become a star in this league. It's his time make his fame.

Rip Hamilton has led the Pistons in scoring in nine consecutive playoff series. It's often said that the Pistons don't have a go to guy, but that is somewhat of a myth. Hamilton is Detroit's best and most consistent offensive weapon.

Rip knows how to win. He won a title in college. He won a title in the NBA. He's a proven scorer who seemingly gets better with added pressure. There's no Ray Allen in him. There's no Vince Carter in him. Though he's all of 150 pounds, he's all warrior. Think of him as a Reggie Miller who actually knows how to win.

The good news for San Antonio is the Spurs, in theory, have the perfect Rip stopper. Bruce Bowen was built for this. He can get through picks like liquid finding its way through the smallest of cracks. Rip is one of the most well conditioned athletes in all of sport who oftentimes runs around screens until he finds himself open. But Bowen can close those openings. He can run with him.

It's time for Bowen to step up. Stop Rip and you'll have your own barge floating down the San Antonio river. Let Rip run wild and well ... R.I.P.

[Nikos]

I worry more about Billups to be honest.

Rip can score, but I think the Spurs can live with it if Billups is limited.

BTW Ray is a much better scorer than Rip. Bowen should be able to keep Rip from exploding. He better otherwise what is Bowen good for?

[Guru of Nothing]

It's time for Bowen to step up. Stop Rip and you'll have your own barge floating down the San Antonio river. Let Rip run wild and well ... R.I.P.

Very nice.

[SenorSpur]

I agree on the points about Bruce. Though I also admit that it's Billups that's got me worried too. Devin Brown will be sorely missed during this series. He'd be the perfect answer to Billups.

[timvp]

I worry more about Billups to be honest.

Rip can score, but I think the Spurs can live with it if Billups is limited.

BTW Ray is a much better scorer than Rip. Bowen should be able to keep Rip from exploding. He better otherwise what is Bowen good for?

What has Ray Allen ever done? He's a regular season wunderkind. Rip gets better in the playoffs. He's led the "balanced" Pistons attack in nice consecutive playoff series.

While Billups is dangerous and very clutch, if Rip is taken out ... it doesn't even come down to that.

[TwoHandJam]

You might be right timvp that stopping Rip is the key to stopping the Pistons but I don't see the Rip/Bowen matchup as being as pivotal as the Parker/Billups matchup. It's well known that Spurs still seem to go as Parker goes more than any other player. When he has a bad game, we struggle to win. Although Bowen might slow Rip down, I don't think he'll be able to neutralize him enough to clear a path for easy victories.

Billups is probably one of the toughest matchups still left in the league for Parker. He has to realize that even if Billups goes off on him, his speed can still let him equalize the score offensively. Parker can't afford to disappear on us in this series because Beno is still a rookie and his possible output is a complete unknown.

[Nikos]

Billups to me is the superior player. He is the heart of that team IMO.

You really think if Ray replaced Rip they would be a worse basketball team?

Ray hasn't had the talent that Rip has had supporting him.

Rip is a very good player, but he is definetely NOT better than Ray Allen.

Anyhow that doesn't really matter. Bowen should be able to keep Rip in check most of the time. If he doesn't I would be suprised.

[SPARKY]

Both backcourt matchups are quite important but I think the Mohammed v. whoever one is the key to the series. This is still a bigman's league. If the Spurs win the battle in the paint on both ends then Detroit will be hard pressed to push the Spurs in the series.

[Kori Ellis]

Rip Hamilton is definitely the motor to the Pistons team. I think Bowen will be able to do a very good job on him though. Like timvp said, he's built to guard guys like Rip. Bowen is probably studying Rip tape right now.

Billups is good offensively but streaky. Defensively, he might give Tony problems. I think Tony will really have to focus this series to produce. He will probably be guarded by Billups to start out, but also by Hamilton in stretches -- both can cause Tony problems.

[timvp]

Billups to me is the superior player. He is the heart of that team IMO.

You really think if Ray replaced Rip they would be a worse basketball team?


Yes. There is a differnce between good regular season basketball players and good postseason basketball players. Rip has never averaged less than his regular season output in any series as a Piston. While Allen has good playoff numbers too, he's no near the proven winner than Hamilton is.

Bowen did a good job on Ray. He'll have to do an even better job on Rip.

[Nikos]

Ray Allen was a beast in the 2001 NBA Playoffs. Go check his stats. Cassell, Mr.Clutch ironically was weak in that playoff run, and Big Dog was just OK. Iverson had the better defensive support, and squeaked out the Eastern Conference that year.

Just because Ray didn't have the support, doesn't mean he is an inferior player to Rip Hamilton. Actually I am not even sure its debatable, Ray Allen is the superior player and it's not even really all that close. Rip has the results in the playoffs because he has the better team support. He has stepped up, but so has Ray Allen in his stints in the playoffs. Just because he is a whiner doesn't mean he is an inferior player.

Props to Rip for stepping up in the past in the playoffs, but it doesn't make him better or more of a 'winner' than Ray Allen whatever that means in this context. It's not Ray's fault he wasn't paired with great defensive role players.

[Kori Ellis]

Nikos -- why are you arguing about Ray Allen? He's laying home on his couch watching the Finals with an icepack on his bruised vagina.

[SequSpur]

she said vagina.

[Nikos]

Rip Hamilton is definitely the motor to the Pistons team. I think Bowen will be able to do a very good job on him though. Like timvp said, he's built to guard guys like Rip. Bowen is probably studying Rip tape right now.

Billups is good offensively but streaky. Defensively, he might give Tony problems. I think Tony will really have to focus this series to produce. He will probably be guarded by Billups to start out, but also by Hamilton in stretches -- both can cause Tony problems.

Billups streaky? Perhaps, but thats Detroit's offense in general. Streaky. Their calling card is D. Their backcourt is their main source of offense, but they do get help from their frontcourt on plenty of occasions.

Offensively Billups is their most efficient player. Rip may get more points, but Billups makes more use of his possesions, and in the end I find him to be the superior player. That's not to say Rip is chopped liver, he is a huge part of their offense, but I do not consider him to be their best player. In some series in the past he has been, but certainly not in all of them.

[Nikos]

Nikos -- why are you arguing about Ray Allen? He's laying home on his couch watching the Finals with an icepack on his bruised vagina.

Just saying he is a superior player to Rip, thats all. Rip has stepped up in the playoffs for a few years now, but so has Ray Allen. I don't like Ray's whining either, but to say he isn't a winner, and that Rip is just doesn't make all that much sense.

[mattyc]

I think Bruce can do it. Rip moves remarkably without the ball, and Bruce is very good at guarding moving players that don't have the rock.

Bruce will limit Rip's chances of gettin' free.

[Kori Ellis]

Nikos, I take it you are arguing just to argue, because you are coming off like a prick. The original reference to Ray Allen in this thread said, He's no Ray Allen .. he's no Vince Carter. If you don't get it -- that is in reference to the fact that Allen and Carter are whining pussies who complained about Bowen's D and Rip Hamilton is just a gritty player who let's his on the court performances speak for themselves. It wasn't about their percentages or anything else -- it was referencing that. So it makes a lot of sense.

And if you don't think that Billups is streaky, just look at his game-by-game stats and shooting percentages.

[Nikos]

The point I am trying to make is that Rip is an inferior player to Ray.

Timvp was trying to imply that Rip is the superior force because of his teams success and the fact that he has stepped up in the playoffs. And all I am saying is that Ray has stepped up too, and is the superior player. If Bruce can guard Ray well, he sure as hell better be able to guard Rip even better.

Billups is streaky, but Rip until this Miami series wasn't exactly playing great basketball. I just think Billups is the better player between the two, but probably not by a huge margin.

I am not trying to be a prick? I just don't buy the whole argument that Rip is a winner and Ray is some playoff nobody. I don't think Ray has ever had the support that Rip has had.


Yes. There is a differnce between good regular season basketball players and good postseason basketball players. Rip has never averaged less than his regular season output in any series as a Piston. While Allen has good playoff numbers too, he's no near the proven winner than Hamilton is.

I just don't agree with this -- thus the reason I am debating/arguing Kori? I don't really understand why you are implying that I am trying to be a prick?

Isn't this forum built to have these kind of debates?

[Kori Ellis]

You just don't get that the original post wasn't anything about comparing Rip's play to Ray's play - it was about Rip not being a wuss/complainer like Ray Allen and Vince Carter. So I'm saying that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing regarding something that has nothing to do with this thread. timvp didn't say anything about Ray Allen in the postseason blahblahblah until you brought it up, then he got in the argument with you. .

[Kori Ellis]

but Rip until this Miami series wasn't exactly playing great basketball.

You realize that he was injured in the first few series, right?

[timvp]

Okay back to Rip versus Bowen, it will be interesting to see how Bowen reacts. He also has to shoot well offensively to stay on the court. Against the Nets in his other Finals experience, Bowen laid an egg offensively.

He has to do better this time.

[Kori Ellis]

The Spurs can't really afford to let Barry stay on the court for long stretches in this series -- so Bowen really needs to be able to produce. Plus we'll probably see more Big Dog.

[Nikos]

I just don't see what Rip's lack of whining has to do with anything in terms of the outcome of the series. I got the impression that when Timvp said that, that he was impying that Rip would be a superior force to Ray Allen. And he followed it up with a post asking basically 'what Ray has ever won?'

I just don't agree with the logic that because Rip has won a title, that he is > Allen or than he will be a more difficult cover because he whines LESS or doesn't at all compared to Ray Allen.

To me its all about how good the player is. And I simply stated that I felt Rip is less of a force than Ray, and that Bowen shouls keep him from exploding.

[Kori Ellis]

I got the impression that when Timvp said that, that he was impying that Rip would be a superior force to Ray Allen

You were wrong. Most people would have figure out that the reference to Ray Allen and Vince Carter was about their pussy tendencies.


And he followed it up with a post asking basically 'what Ray has ever won?'

Yeah he did, after you brought up the subject of Ray's scoring.

[timvp]

There's no Ray Allen in him. There's no Vince Carter in him. Though he's all of 150 pounds, he's all warrior.

If I'm saying Rip Hamilton is a warrior and I'm comparing him against Carter and Allen, I'm saying that Allen and Carter are not warriors. In other words, they are whiners who would rather cry to the press than get into the trenches. Allen and Carter are great players, but they are soft.

Get it?

[Nikos]

You realize that he was injured in the first few series, right?

Sure. But he still played heavy minutes, and he still played against a teams whose best players were also injured and or not playing. If Rip can play 43mpg in the playoffs, I can't exactly considered him to be 'injured' in the same sense that Jermaine or Wade were.

[Nikos]

If I'm saying Rip Hamilton is a warrior and I'm comparing him against Carter and Allen, I'm saying that Allen and Carter are not warriors. In other words, they are whiners who would rather cry to the press than get into the trenches. Allen and Carter are great players, but they are soft.

Get it?

And I'm saying that his lack of whining has NOTHING to do with the outcome of the series. I just got the impression you thought that Rip would be a tougher guard than Ray, and that Bruce has his toughest challenge yet.

You basically proved my instinct right by saying Ray hasn't won anything.

Sorry if I am reading your posts wrong, but I just get the impression you feel Rip is going to be a tougher guard than Ray Allen.

[Kori Ellis]

but Rip until this Miami series wasn't exactly playing great basketball.


Sure. But he still played heavy minutes, and he still played against a teams whose best players were also injured and or not playing. If Rip can play 43mpg in the playoffs, I can't exactly considered him to be 'injured' in the same sense that Jermaine or Wade were.

He played heavy minutes because he's not a pussy. But he was hurt -- and still shot 50% from the field and averaged over 20 ppg in round one.

[timvp]

Is Ray Allen a warrior? No. Has he ever won anything? No. Does Ray Allen whine to the press instead of proving himself on the court? Yes.

Add it up.

Anyways, please let's get back to Bowen vs. Rip. Let Ray Allen fish in peace :)

[Nikos]

You were wrong. Most people would have figure out that the reference to Ray Allen and Vince Carter was about their pussy tendencies.



Yeah he did, after you brought up the subject of Ray's scoring.

Well why can't we continue that argument? I wasn't trying to be a prick. As I said previously, I got the impression from Timvp that he felt Rip is going to be more of a load than Ray was. And I argued based on that assumption.

I was not trying to be a prick, and I am only looking for a good debate. Why don't we continue it instead of arguing semantics?

[Kori Ellis]

I was not trying to be a prick, and I am only looking for a good debate. Why don't we continue it instead of arguing semantics?

Umm.. because no one is arguing that Allen isn't a better scorer than Rip.

[Nikos]

Is Ray Allen a warrior? No. Has he ever won anything? No. Does Ray Allen whine to the press instead of proving himself on the court? Yes.

Add it up.

Anyways, please let's get back to Bowen vs. Rip. Let Ray Allen fish in peace :)

Again, I just don't agree with that whole 'winning argument'. Ray has had inferior support. Rip has had superior support. But I guess we will agree to disagree.

As for Rip, I think Bowen should be able to guard him well most of the time. Rip will be tough, and he should have a few big games. But I think Bowen should force him into a lot of shots to get his 20-25pts. I am all for Rip scoring 25pts if he has to shoot 23+ shots to get it.

It's all about efficiency. If Bowen can keep Rips scoring efficiency down, then the Spurs will be OK.

[Nikos]

Umm.. because no one is arguing that Allen isn't a better scorer than Rip.

I argued based on my assumption that timvp was deeming Rip the superior player. I just don't agree with that whole 'winning' mantra. And I just didn't see what Rip being a warrior and not whining like Ray had to do with Rip being such a tough guard. So I mentioned that I felt Ray was the superior player, and that if Bowen can guard him well, Rip shouldn't be any more difficult.

I guess we will have to see. I think Bowen has to make Rip earn his 20-25pts. If he doesn't and lays an egg on offense, then the team might be in big trouble.

But I think Bowen can do a solid job on D. How about you Kori?

[whottt]

Pistons in 6...Larry Brown > Pop

BTW, Pop said on his radio show earlier in the Phoenix series that Bruce is not that good at fighting through picks(specifically the type used in a picnroll). Surprised me too..then again, he did struggle with them mightily against LA last season. Chasing guys without the ball? Yes he's excellent at that...chasing them when his 200lb body is getting mashed? Not according to Pop.

I say put Bruce on Prince...let Manu chase Rip and make Rip play freaking D.

All putting Bruce on Rip will do is allow Rip to not have to play D and we'll waste our best defensive player on a guy that is pretty much impossible to stop anyway...and I think Bruce matches up better with Prince than Manu as well.

[Kori Ellis]

I say put Bruce on Prince...let Manu chase Rip and make Rip play freaking D

All putting Bruce on Rip will do is allow Rip to not have to play D and we'll waste our best defensive player on a guy that is pretty much impossible to stop anyway...and I think Bruce matches up better with Prince than Manu anyway.

:wtf Just because Bruce will guard Rip doesn't mean Rip will guard Bruce.
I think Rip will guard Manu (at least part of the time) but I think definitely Bruce will guard Rip and Manu will guard Prince.

[whottt]

So you think the Spurs will use Bruce to make Rip work on D while Manu makes him work on O? Could work...it's similar to what the Spurs did against the Lakers in 03...

But I think Bruce can shut Prince down better than Manu can...and I don't think anyone can do anything about Rip. If we put Bruce on Prince there is a good chance we'll own at least one of their offensive players...if we put him on Rip..we may not own any of them.

[whottt]

:wtf Just because Bruce will guard Rip doesn't mean Rip will guard Bruce.
I think Rip will guard Manu (at least part of the time) but I think definitely Bruce will guard Rip and Manu will guard Prince.

It's possible but I don't even think the Pistons know yet...

[timvp]

BTW, Pop said on his radio show earlier in the Phoenix series that Bruce is not that good at fighting through picks(specifically the type used in a picnroll).

This is almost worse than Nikos' Ray Allen is a warrior with multiple NCAA and NBA titles take. :)

Pop said Bowen isn't good in pick-and-roll situations. Bowen is the best freakin' player in the league in following people around picks. Pop has said this countless times. Everyone knows that Bowen is a master at following people around picks. It's in pick-and-roll situations where he isn't too great ... and that is usually due to him making poor decisions on whether to switch the pick-and-roll or stay on his man. That is why the Lakers killed him after going to Shaq and Kobe pick-and-rolls.

Hamilton rarely runs pick-and-rolls. He does sometimes, but it's usually after going around like 72 picks to get the ball.

Bowen not being good at going around picks is a horrendous take. That's what he's best at.

[Kori Ellis]

So you think the Spurs will use Bruce to make Rip work on D while Manu makes him work on O?

Yes. I think that they will start out by using Prince to guard Manu, but I think that Rip will see a lot of time on him, just like he did on Wade.


But I think Bruce can shut Prince down better than Manu can...and I don't think anyone can do anything about Rip. If we put Bruce on Prince there is a good chance we'll own at least one of their offensive players...if we put him on Rip..we may not own any of them.

I think Bruce will get switched off to guard Prince sometimes too -- maybe Rip is out of the game. But I think he'll start off and see most of his time on Rip. I think he has a very good chance at keeping Rip's FG% in the hi 30's/low 40's.

I think we'll see lots of switches in this series though. I think Chauncey and Rip will both guard Tony on occasion. I think Prince and Rip will both guard Manu on occasion.

[timvp]

Oh and if the Spurs try to put Manu on Rip, Manu will need an IV by halftime and will be carried out in a wooden box after the game.

[Nikos]

This is almost worse than Nikos' Ray Allen is a warrior with multiple NCAA and NBA titles take. :)


No, I am saying Ray has had a great playoffs in 2001 and that should not be discarded because he didnt have enough support to get to the finals and compete with the Lakers that year.

Ray is the better player. I am not saying he is a warrior, and to me that kind of attribute is very subjective anyway, at least in terms of how much it relates to how good a player actually is.

[timvp]

No, I am saying Ray has had a great playoffs in 2001 and that should not be discarded because he didnt have enough support to get to the finals and compete with the Lakers that year.

Ray is the better player. I am not saying he is a warrior, and to me that kind of attribute is very subjective anyway, at least in terms of how much it relates to how good a player actually is.

Yeah I was kidding. Hence the ":)".

[Nikos]

Yeah I was kidding. Hence the ":)".

:fro

[timvp]

:fro

Was that racially motivated?

[Mr. Body]

I'd rather put Bruce on Billups, if you move him off Hamilton. Why not try to jam the offense?

[whottt]

This is almost worse than Nikos' Ray Allen is a warrior with multiple NCAA and NBA titles take. :)

Pop said Bowen isn't good in pick-and-roll situations. Bowen is the best freakin' player in the league in following people around picks. Pop has said this countless times.


I disagree. I don't think he's even the best guy on the team at fighting through picks...Parker is better at it(when he is into it).

Fighting through picks is not the best part of Bowen's game, the best part of his D is staying in front of his man, moving backwards on their forward drives and getting into their body on the perimeter.

The best part of Bruce's D is his ability to move his feet quickly forwards or backwards.


Everyone knows that Bowen is a master at following people around picks. It's in pick-and-roll situations where he isn't too great ... and that is usually due to him making poor decisions on whether to switch the pick-and-roll or stay on his man. That is why the Lakers killed him after going to Shaq and Kobe pick-and-rolls.

I thought it was becasuse he was skinny.

Hmmmm, I am certain of it....You must have watched a different series than I did...in the series I watched his problems were caused entirely by getting his skinny ass hammered.


Hamilton rarely runs pick-and-rolls. He does sometimes, but it's usually after going around like 72 picks to get the ball.

Um...all Rip did in Washington was run pickNrolls...And you must think the Pistons are stupid...they watched that series last year. I gurantee you they are going to do it.




Bowen not being good at going around picks is a horrendous take. That's what he's best at.

Don't kill the messenger....and I disagree with your idea of what he is best at.


It's all moot anyway...you have a choice of putting Bruce on a guy he probably can be effective against(both physically and mentally), or a guy no one is going to be that effective against....I think you take what you can get and put Bruce on the guy he is most likely to disrupt...Prince.

[timvp]

Don't kill the messenger

I apologize, but next time deliver the right message.

:)

[whottt]

I'd rather put Bruce on Billups, if you move him off Hamilton. Why not try to jam the offense?


That leaves Parker guarding a guy that's got a 4 inch height advantage on him, the smarts to realize how to take advantage of it, and one of the best jump shots in the NBA...that's a bad idea there..

You might as well not put anyone on Rip if that is what you are going to do.


Parker can match Billups(although he may not be as good in the 4th as Billups).

Spurs fans need to realize something here...Billups is not the guy people have nightmares about guarding...Tony Parker is. I like the Parker Billups match up...Billups is strong but he can't keep up with Parker.

Parker guards Billups
Manu guards Rip
Bruce guards Prince...

When Manu goes to the bench flip Bruce onto Rip and let Barry guard Prince...

Barry has done a yeomans job on the long SF's in every series we have played...he's been decent, as long as the guy is not super agressive(like Rip) he does ok against them. Prince fits that mold.

[myhc]

Why not just let Bruce guard Rip all game long? We don't want to wear out Manu chasing Rip.

[timvp]

Oh and if the Spurs try to put Manu on Rip, Manu will need an IV by halftime and will be carried out in a wooden box after the game.

Bump.

[Mr. Body]

My point is, in stretches, Parker can help in ball denial by guarding Hamilton. He gets his shot off generally, but looks to get closer to the lane to release it. A mad quick player can frustrate him.

[whottt]

Why not just let Bruce guard Rip all game long? We don't want to wear out Manu chasing Rip.


And this is the fatal flaw in the theory that Manu shouldn't be put on Rip...

Manu is going to wear out if he's playing against Steve Kerr...Manu wears himself out. Manu wears out because of the way he plays the game. It's got nothing to do with who he is defending. Putting him on Hamilton or Prince is not going to cause him to expend any more, or less energy, than he spends anyway.

Might as well give Rip a dose of his own frenetic medicine while Manu is on the court.

[Kori Ellis]

Parker guards Billups
Manu guards Rip
Bruce guards Prince...

Sorry Whottt. As mentioned, Manu would get worn down chasing Rip -- and yes, running around will make him even more tired than normal. Bowen and Pop have already both talked about the pending matchup of Bowen on Rip. So that's what you are likely going to see.

[whottt]

Bump.

Yeah...if we don't put Manu on Rip Manu will save his energy...that'll be a first.

[timvp]

Yeah...if we don't put Manu on Rip Manu will save his energy...that'll be a first.

He'll be able to last 35 minutes compared to like 20 if he has to chase Rip around.

[whottt]

Well it's good to know Manu can take it easy now...too bad he's not going to anyway...

Manu plays all out when he is in the game...he's not going to use any more energy than he does anyway.

I must be the only guy in the world that's ever seen Manu play a game.

[Kori Ellis]

Well it's good to know Manu can take it easy now...too bad he's not going to anyway...

Manu plays all out when he is in the game...he's not going to use any more energy than he does anyway.

I must be the only guy in the world that's ever seen Manu play a game.

Whottt, I get what you are saying but it's logical that chasing a guy like Rip will make him even MORE tired. It's simple logic. It's not about not ever seeing Manu play .. have you ever seen Rip play?

[whottt]

He'll be able to last 35 minutes compared to like 20 if he has to chase Rip around.


If he's not chasing Rip around he's going to be chasing something else around...he's going to chase because that's what he does when he is in the game.

[timvp]

I must be the only guy in the world that's ever seen Manu play a game.

Or you've never watched Rip run around the court like Reggie Miller on speed.

[timvp]

If he's not chasing Rip around he's going to be chasing something else around...he's going to chase because that's what he does when he is in the game.

Prince doesn't move 1/4th as much as Rip does. Against Prince, Manu will just have to not let him post up on him or hit open threes.

[whottt]

I predict that Manu will run around on the court like a bat out of hell whether he is on Hamilton or not...it's what makes him great.

[whottt]

Prince doesn't move 1/4th as much as Rip does. Against Prince, Manu will just have to not let him post up on him or hit open threes.

Manu will still be frenetic, I don't care if he's guarding Steve Kerr...

Manu wears himself out...that's what you guys aren't seeing.

[timvp]

I predict that Manu will run around on the court like a bat out of hell whether he is on Hamilton or not...it's what makes him great.

Well if Prince is camped in the corner, Manu better not be running too much or he'll be benched after Prince hits a wide open three.

[Kori Ellis]

Like I said, we'll see a lot of switches in this series. But Bowen always starts out guarding Rip .. he was even talking about it on TV like two days ago. Sure Pop might switch him onto Prince if Prince is going off or something .. but hopefully that isn't happening.

[whottt]

Look...here's the deal...

A.Rip Hamilton is not Jordan...but he did play with Jordan, in fact, Jordan traded him away IIRC...and his 20PPG did exactly squat as far as getting his team into the playoffs in Washington.

B.The Detroit Pistons are not the greatest offensive team in NBA history. The team we just played is a much better offensive team, as matter, of fact, every team we have played so far is a much better offensive team. We...are a much better offensive team.

C. The Pistons win because of their D. Breaking their D is the key to beating them, not shutting down their mighty 92ppg offense.


It's this type of mindset that I find frustrating...it's why we lose. We are over-rating our opponents and under-rating our own team. Instead of making them worry about us...we are starting off on the defensive. We are being a counterpuncher...I hate it when the Spurs do this. It's why I am forced to pick against them.


But since you guys are worried about offense....here's my point...

Now humor me for a second, and let's pretend Rip Hamilton isn't Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, George Gervin, Allen Iverson, Jerry West, TMac and Kobe, all rolled into one...I know it's a taking a huge leap from reality to do so...but just humor me, please...

Remember when the 49'ers signed Deion Sanders and everyone thought it was to stop Michael Irvin? Then it turned out they put Sanders on Harper and doubled Irvin, enroute to making the Superbowl? The Niners were brilliant, they used their stopper to stop the guy they had a better chance of stopping...

That same logic applies here...

We can stop Prince easier than Hamilton...we may not be able to do much about Hamilton...he's plays a team style of offense...

So if we really want to stop their mighty offense...why not use our defensive ace to stop the guy we have a better chance of stopping...Prince? Stopping one is better than stopping none.

[Kori Ellis]

What makes you think Bowen can stop Prince?

[mavsfan1000]

Bowen guarding Hamilton will keep Ginobili fresh.

[Kori Ellis]

Whott, my point is that you are under the premise that Bowen can't slow Rip (and that no one can) so we should just let him go.

This season against the Spurs, Rip went 4-for-14 for 8 points and 4-for-12 for 11 points. So if you know that Bowen can slow Rip, why do you want to switch Bowen onto Prince?

[Kori Ellis]

And BTW Whottt, no one is saying that the Spurs offense isn't going to win them games. But the Spurs have to D up too -- and we are just discussing matchups.

[whottt]

There are no gurantees on anything...but my mindset is this...Hamilton is the guy used to getting the ace defender. Prince is used to getting the second tier defender. On top of that, he's younger and less experienced...I don't think he's had the Bruce experience yet.

I don't think he'll be prepared for it mentally or physically. Hamilton OTOH will...And yes I know Bruce defends Hamilton about as well as anyone in the NBA...but that's not the point...because Hamilton will still be effective Bruce or not.

On top of that...Prince is much better at driving to the basket than Hamilton...Prince can only hurt you really if he's getting to the basket...

Unlike TimVP...IMO, I think what makes Bruce a great defender is his ability to stay in front of his man and his great vertical foots quickness...even when going backwards. Yes Bruce can and will chase guys all night long...but IMO, you are focusing on the hustling aspect of his D, and not the skill that actually makes him a great defender.


We don't see it as much anymore because Bruce is always trying to force guys to the baseline, he's usually forcing shooters to drive into seven footers...but his best skill is actually staying in front of his man on drives.

Now here is where it's complicated...and it might even sound contradictory..but..


I think every team goes into playing the Pistons with the mindset of...force Hamilton to drive and force Prince to shoot.. and they are right to do so...

The reason it doesn't work is because it's hard to force Hamilton to drive, and it's hard to force Prince to shoot. Well...we aren't going to force Hamilton to drive, he's a vet and knows his limitations.

But we can force Prince to shoot. My way we are using Bruce to turn Prince into the shooter...it's kind of like we are using him as a decoy...he won't be playing D as hard as he usually does...but I claim he will be just as effective nontheless....because he'll make it more attractive to the Pistons for Prince to shoot.

[timvp]

No wonder Whottt is picking Detroit.


http://www.jsonline.com/graphics/sports/buck/img/dec04/belt1203.jpg http://www.wrestlingzone.ru/gallery/hbk/25.jpg

The Spurs are cool, but wrastling fans stick together.

:smokin

[whottt]

Um...that guy in the bottom picture is a hardcore Spursfan....he's not rooting for the Pistons(and neither am I)

I don't get your point...


But I evidentally "believe" in the Spurs more than you do...I don't have my panties in a bunch over Rip Hamilton...and I don't think they are fit to hold the Spurs jock in the talent department...it shouldn't be a close series...The Pistons would have been beaten by every team we have met in the post season.

Then again...I thought that when you guys were handwrining over Denver as well...and sure enough Pop proved ya'll right by getting stupid in the 4th of game 1...and so for that reason...I still must say: Pistons over Spurs. Until Pop once and for all overcomes his choke loving tendencies(I've been very happy with him lately BTW).

[timvp]

'Twas a joke. Didn't mean to offend you or that wrestler.

[Obi wan Ginobili]

Ginobili is going to get 3 or 4 offensive fouls off of prince when Tayshawn tries to post him up in this series.

You just watch.

;)

[whottt]

So tell me TimVP...are you a big fan of the Pistons' "absolutely no fucking interior scoring presence" type team? I'm not.

Maybe we should trade Duncan so we can have money to sign the midrange shooting BigDogg and become Pistons South.

This series shoulodn't even be close...if we lose...and if I don't see a major choke(and no, Barry going 1-3 in 10 minutes of play isn't a choke) causing it...then it will all be on Pop. We'll have lost because Larry Brown is a better coach than Pop.

I think it will be. Pistons in 6.

[whottt]

'Twas a joke. Didn't mean to offend you or that wrestler.


LMAO...The HeartBreak Kid AKA Shawn Michaels, has been going to Spurs game for years...long before Tommy Lee or George Straight ever even thought about it...it's just wrong to gloss him as a Piston or bandwagon fan...He lived through the rough years with the rest of us.

Now Steve Austin...another San Antonio wrestler....was hanging out in the fucking Laker lockerroom after they whipped up on us last season...his picture would have been more appropriate...the HeartBreakKid deserved better :flipoff. Plus he's one of the top 5 pro wrestlers ever.

[Kori Ellis]

This series shoulodn't even be close...if I don't see a major choke(and no, Barry going 1-3 in 10 minutes of play isn't a choke)...then it will all be on Pop.

I think it will be. Pistons in 6.

So you think it shouldn't be close at all, but you are predicting Pistons in Six? So you think they'll choke off that many games? Or are you just trying to keep your bad mojo going (seeing as you predicted the Spurs to lose the last three series)?

[whottt]

I can't tell you what I am doing because I don't want to fuck it up...but do I seem unhappy the Spurs have proved me wrong?

I'm the Bruce Bowen of this forum...

[Kori Ellis]

but do I seem unhappy the Spurs have proved me wrong?


Yes, you seem as miserable as always. :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

HBK is the best wrestler ever, i met him once

spurs in 7

[whottt]

HBK is the Jordan of Pro Wrestling...UT is the Will Perdue...get real.

[spurster]

We can worry about Spurs offense on another thread.

The simple fact of this series is that the matchups on Spurs D will be 1-1 with the exceptions of Billups or Prince posting up, which is not the Pistons bread-and-butter. If the Spurs can stop/limit Rip and Rasheed as well, then the Pistons offense will be hard-pressed to score many points. That by itself keeps the Spurs in every game.

[ducks]

Billups Can Get Some If Rip Is Shutdown

[SPARKY]

We can worry about Spurs offense on another thread.

The simple fact of this series is that the matchups on Spurs D will be 1-1 with the exceptions of Billups or Prince posting up, which is not the Pistons bread-and-butter. If the Spurs can stop/limit Rip and Rasheed as well, then the Pistons offense will be hard-pressed to score many points. That by itself keeps the Spurs in every game.

Exactly. The Pistons have never faced a defense like this before. The difference between the Spur O and Piston O is much greater than any difference between the teams' defenses.

[duncan_21]

Rip Hamilton is definitely the motor to the Pistons team. I think Bowen will be able to do a very good job on him though. Like timvp said, he's built to guard guys like Rip. Bowen is probably studying Rip tape right now.

Billups is good offensively but streaky. Defensively, he might give Tony problems. I think Tony will really have to focus this series to produce. He will probably be guarded by Billups to start out, but also by Hamilton in stretches -- both can cause Tony problems.

I also believe that if you pressure billups enough he will turn the ball over or shoot stupid shots. I think stopping rip one on one really limits det's offensively offensive game. Remember also that he has to guard tp as well.

My key for the spurs:
1. bowen must shut down rip; w/out double teaming thus elimating the creation of easy shots for his teammates

2. The spurs must stop the pistons fast break so the spurs must own the offensive boards and must get back in transition d

[nkdlunch]

Bruce Was Built For This

Damn! I knew he wasn't human.

http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/terminator-thumb.jpg
Bruce Bowen. Serial #3hj24l5h312545l4325345

[picnroll]

Allen accounted for 24.2% of the Sonics offense in reg season and 26.8% in the playoffs. Rip accounted for 20.0 and 23.2% respectively. Bruce will be on Rip but Spurs will do a much better job of guys stepping out and challenging his shot when he comes around the screens, certainly better than the pathetic job Miami did. I'll be surprised if Rip has a very effective series overall.

I think Brown will likely go to a lot of posting up of Billups on Parker. If Billups is successful, particularly if Parker isn't producing at the offensive end, I wouldn't be surprised if Beno doesn't see more time since he's a little bigger and stronger than Parker.

And the DPY won't be playing Duncan which shows you what a farce that is. Big Ben is about the fourth best on the ball defender on the Pistons and half his rep comes from his fierce looks.

[mookie2001]

bruce will make himself san antonio god in this series, i dont see how Det can possibly score enough to win

[Supergirl]

Bowen will start off guarding Rip, and Rip will have his lowest scoring games of the playoffs. But I suspect Bowen will be called on to guard Billups when he gets going some times.

I agree with Kori's comments - Parker will have trouble scoring because Billups isa good defender. But Billups may have trouble scoring too, because Parker is pretty good on D as well, and can keep up with him. He won't leave him open like others have...

The X-factor for the Pistons is Tayshun Prince, and I think the Spurs answer to him is Robert Horry.

The X-factor for the SPurs will be either Manu or Robinson, and I don't think the Pistons will be able to stop them enough.

[spur219]

Bruce is at his best when he guards players like RIP. Who just run around picks and get open. I don't expect RIP to be a real big factor in this series. The guy I am truly worried about is Chauncey Billups. I think he will give problems to Tony Parker. Billups is quick and bigger and bigger guards tend to give Parker problems. Also the Pistons are really good at stopping penetration so Tony will need to hit those open jumpers so he can make the Pistons respect his shot and that will open up the lane.

BELIEVE!!.

[SPARKY]

What is missing here is that the effort it will take the Pistons to stop Duncan does expose them to be lit up by someone else. Mohammed is an obvious choice since the help D will likely come from the weak side, but I think there is an opportunity for Manu or TP to get some easy scores off of their D. If not them then someone is going to be left open.

[picnroll]

Hamilton was 8 - 26 against the Spurs this year for a total of 19 points.

[Edwardo]

Ray allen is a better offensive player than Rip in only shooting. But RiP is better at defense, passing, and rebounding. If RIP had Ray's 3 point game he would be the best guard in the league. RIP scores 20 pts a game as a guard and doesn't shoot the 3. That is pretty impressive.