Debate overall backcourts

[Rummpd]

Everyone is giving Pistons edge in media. Not so fast, Spurs also have a damm good backcourt and in reality, it depends on if Parker "brings it" and attack aggressively and smartly. Manu will be there and although not the scorer always of Wade is just as dangerous in clutch time.

If Parker does, Spurs right there with them period. Not to disrespect Billups but he is not facing an aging Gary Payton or Derek Fisher in this finals matchup.

Debate.

[DetroitFolly]

I think its an absolute gem of a matchup. Billups and Hamilton v Parker and Ginobili...probably the two most UNDERRATED backcourts in the game. Neither point guard is a Nash/Kidd type player, but they are quietly efficient.

Why Rip Hamilton is not considered a superstar is beyond me. All he does is show up and score 20 ppg every night, and hits clutch jumpers in the fourth quarter. And, I think he has the energy to both keep up with Manu on the defensive end, and run him ragged coming off all of those screens on the offensive end.

Parker might be more explosive than Billups...but Chauncey is incredibly strong, and also hits huge shots for this team.

Frankly, I think its a wash.

Sheed v Duncan is also pretty darn close, but the edge of course goes to Duncan...if his ankle isn't affecting his mobility too much. Sheed's ability to hit the three MIGHT force Duncan to abandon the paint more, opening up the lane for penetration by the Detroit Guards and Tayshaun.

As for Ben and Nazr...look for an absolute BRAWL under the hoop. If Detroit can work the offensive boards, it could be a long series for San Antonio.

The real question for me is...who will guard Tayshaun Prince? He's got Bowen by a couple of inches already, and his wingspan is massive. That could be tough, if we can get Bowen (a SOLID, SOLID defender) in foul trouble.

[Rummpd]

You make solid points for a "Pistons" fan!

[orhe]

i don't know about tayshaun, the guy hits jumpers etc and post up quite a bit.
the success rate of his post usually depends on the position where he catches the ball.

if he gets it at jump hook range he was pretty good (albeit he'll struggle a bit more w/ Manu guarding him (coz manu is so so tough to postup on). (he did burn manu on the last game, but that was w/o duncan guarding the middle)

if tayshaun prince emerges as a scoring threat kudos to him, but w/ the spurs drive to defend i don't think he'll get off at all. (Tay was also scared to shoot during the 4th quarter of game 7 too bad the heat didn't notice that. but damn he was scared)

[DesiSpur_21]

The real question for me is...who will guard Tayshaun Prince? He's got Bowen by a couple of inches already, and his wingspan is massive. That could be tough, if we can get Bowen (a SOLID, SOLID defender) in foul trouble.

Ginobili handles Prince - Spurs got to live with this matchup.

[Slo spurs fan]

I think that bench players gives Spurs a little more chances vs Pistons.

Spurs starters = Pistons starters, BUT:

Spurs bench >>>>>>> Pistons bench.

Spurs in 6.

[nkdlunch]

The backcourts looks like are gonna cancel each other out. I agree, Spurs in 6.

[coz]

I'm not so sure our bench is so much greater than the piston's....

IMO:

Billups > Parker
Manu > Rip
Prince > Bowen

The great thing about this finals is how similar these two teams are. I think the big difference in this series will be Manu's ability to create outside of the offense.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Starting backcourts? I think it's a bit of a push. Billups hits clutch jumpers but if Tony gets aggressive he can really get the whole team moving. And Ginobili and Hamilton are a couple of damn energizer bunnies. I think where the real advantage exists for the Spurs is in the depth of the backcourt. The Spurs have Beno and Barry off the bench, while the Pistons bring in Arroyo and Hunter. Hunter's D is pretty good but his O is lacking, and from what I've seen Arroyo hasn't had much impact when he's been in.

[geerussell]

The starting backcourts are kind of even. The spurs will find it hard to stop hamilton from scoring and the pistons' achilles heel is a point guard who can dribble penetrate so parker will be a hand full all series long.

I'd go so far as to say Parker is the key to the whole series. If detroit can't find an answer defensively to keep Parker in front of them, it could be a short, ugly series in favor of the Spurs. If the pistons can find that answer, they have a puncher's chance at winning.

[SPARKY]

I'd give a slight edge to Detroit in the backcourt. The problem is, the Spurs' edge in the frontcourt more than makes up for that. Detroit is highly dependent on their backcourt for their offensive production. For the Spurs, when all else fails you have a Tim Duncan to go to in the post.

It's going to be the relative weakness of the Pistons' offense that is the deciding factor in this series.

[Xolotl]

My question is what has happened to Ben Wallace he just doesn't seem to have his normal amount of energy. Is he hurt or just beat up by Shaq?

[The Mask]

I'd give a slight edge to Detroit in the backcourt. The problem is, the Spurs' edge in the frontcourt more than makes up for that. Detroit is highly dependent on their backcourt for their offensive production. For the Spurs, when all else fails you have a Tim Duncan to go to in the post.

It's going to be the relative weakness of the Pistons' offense that is the deciding factor in this series.


I don't see a major advantage for the Spurs in the frontcourt. While Duncan is better than any one Piston player, the combo of Sheed, Ben, and McDyess may be overall better than the Spurs. I think the Spurs better prepare for a huge jump in intensity that Den, PHX, and SEA can't match. Those teams play no D. Det has played against better teams this playoff run. PHX was a good team but everyone knows you can't win the title with a run and gun style.

[The Mask]

My question is what has happened to Ben Wallace he just doesn't seem to have his normal amount of energy. Is he hurt or just beat up by Shaq?


He was just taken out of his game by Shaq. He came up big last night with that monster dunk in the fourth.

[SPARKY]

I don't see a major advantage for the Spurs in the frontcourt. While Duncan is better than any one Piston player, the combo of Sheed, Ben, and McDyess may be overall better than the Spurs.


TD
Mohammed
Horry
Nesterovic
Massenburg

Yes, TD is the deciding factor but overall the Spurs' frontcourt has much more depth, can match whatever style you want to play, and yes, again, the best frontcourt player on the court.




I think the Spurs better prepare for a huge jump in intensity that Den, PHX, and SEA can't match. Those teams play no D. Det has played against better teams this playoff run. PHX was a good team but everyone knows you can't win the title with a run and gun style.

Sure, but can the Pistons' O handle it when their offense faces such a dominant and complete defense? The Pistons don't have anyone they can reliably go to in the post. The Spurs can easily turn their bigs into jumpshooters and limit them to one and done. Detroit fans seem to be forgetting that they will be facing the best defense in the NBA. It's one thing to struggle to score when you are facing the Pacers...

[SWC Bonfire]

My question is what has happened to Ben Wallace he just doesn't seem to have his normal amount of energy. Is he hurt or just beat up by Shaq?


http://img.slate.msn.com/media/22/040713_Kareem_Airplane.jpg

"Tell your old man to drag Walton and Lanier up and down the court for 48 minutes..."

[SWC Bonfire]

I think the Spurs better prepare for a huge jump in intensity that Den, PHX, and SEA can't match. Those teams play no D.

Obviously didn't ask Manu why they were trying to rip his head off in the earlier rounds. You can't "flop" a shot to the face.

[The Mask]

TD


Sure, but can the Pistons' O handle it when their offense faces such a dominant and complete defense? The Pistons don't have anyone they can reliably go to in the post. The Spurs can easily turn their bigs into jumpshooters and limit them to one and done. Detroit fans seem to be forgetting that they will be facing the best defense in the NBA. It's one thing to struggle to score when you are facing the Pacers...

Sheed and Prince can both post and Billups would likely post Parker up to force a double if Parker can't stop him. Dice can post too. Pacers are our main rival and play good D. We are their major obstacle to the next step. It is that kind of test that will help DET.

[SPARKY]

Sheed is not a post player. If you are trying to post up Prince you aren't going to go far with that. Dice could be useful but even his post game is pretty much just a turnaround J.

[mookie2001]

whats to debate
san antonio is clearly superior
yeah billups has "strength" on parker but who cares, according to espn andre miller was the "strongest" PG of all time
manu owns rip in everyway but maybe shooting mid range jumpers, thats what rip and billups are going to be doing all series is chunking up jumpers, which they are good at, but they cant score enough or shoot a high enough % to win

[1Parker1]

I don't see a major advantage for the Spurs in the frontcourt. While Duncan is better than any one Piston player, the combo of Sheed, Ben, and McDyess may be overall better than the Spurs. I think the Spurs better prepare for a huge jump in intensity that Den, PHX, and SEA can't match. Those teams play no D. Det has played against better teams this playoff run. PHX was a good team but everyone knows you can't win the title with a run and gun style.
Right because the 76ers, injury depleted Pacers team, and injured Shaq and Wade team are so much tougher then the hottest team in the NBA post AS break, the suprise 3 seed in the West, and the team with the best record in the NBA--despite not playing defense. Are you on crack?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

It seemed like Rasheed got scared out of the post kind of easily against Miami. He'd try to take it into the paint every once in a while against Haslem, but when the ran the Zo'Neal lineup he started living at the three point line. If the Spurs can keep him out there I think that's big because he can be a dangerous 3 baller if he can get some points in the paint first and get into the flow of the game, but if he starts his game shooting out there he won't be nearly as threatening. Posting Prince or Billups is a bit of a gamble with the Spurs shot blockers looking to help. The Heat didn't rotate well at all on D, but that's not a mistake the Spurs will make much. And Dice I think is better off a pic and roll for that baseline jumper rather than forcing a post matchup. If he's being covered by anyone but Horry in the block he's going to be giving up size and athleticism.

[fekz]

whats to debate
san antonio is clearly superior
yeah billups has "strength" on parker but who cares, according to espn andre miller was the "strongest" PG of all time
manu owns rip in everyway but maybe shooting mid range jumpers, thats what rip and billups are going to be doing all series is chunking up jumpers, which they are good at, but they cant score enough or shoot a high enough % to win


Im just gonna dismiss that as the fan in you coming out.

Billups - Parker: Advantage Pistons. While parker is known for his explosive quickness and unblockable floaters, billups has the ability to post him up, and theres not much he can do. Billups can do pretty much everything TP can. Billups is known to hit extremely clutch shots with no remorse when they count. TP is explosive, but Billups is a closer.

Rip - Manu: Wash. Both of these guys serve the same purpose. penetrate, score and distrubute if necessary. They cause defenses to collapse in the paint, then can finish, or distribute the ball to a Rasheed Wallace or Tim duncan.

Prince - Bowen: Advantage Pistons. While bowen is an excellent defender, I don't see him having an offensive explosion in this series that tayshaun can. I wouldn't be surprised to see tayshaun switch off to manu to stop the penetration he's known for, while rip temporarily guards bowen because of his role in the Spurs offense.

'Sheed - Duncan: Advantage Spurs (I'm not that much of a homer). While 'Sheed's in and out game could tire duncan, Duncan is consistent down low, and is known for hitting clutch shots. He is a closer. 'Sheed is an igniter. The advantage is with the Spurs, but will it be exploited?

Ben - Nazr: Advantage Pistons. Ben is a defensive monster. Period. Defensive rebounds, offensive rebounds, key hustle plays, clean ups off misses, and the occasional jumpshot. Nazr is OK, but its clear the advantage is to the Pistons Mainly because of the defensive hustle in Ben Wallace.

Pistons bench - Spurs bench: Advantage Spurs. Just having robert horry and brent barry alone speaks volumes. dice (as we like to call him) well be huge for us, and so will lindsey, but for every two points they score, those guys can erase and increase with a three. Rasho, Devin, and glenn rob are all decent players, but this advantage comes because of Horry/Barry.

All of this is subject to change, other matchups could be exploited, so im not basing my prediction off paper advantages.

Pistons in 6. Too hungry, Too much to prove.

[samikeyp]

Too hungry, Too much to prove.

I agree...that is why I say Spurs in 6.

[Supergirl]

The real question for me is...who will guard Tayshaun Prince? He's got Bowen by a couple of inches already, and his wingspan is massive. That could be tough, if we can get Bowen (a SOLID, SOLID defender) in foul trouble.

Robert Horry.

[SPARKY]

Prince - Bowen: Advantage Pistons. While bowen is an excellent defender, I don't see him having an offensive explosion in this series that tayshaun can. I wouldn't be surprised to see tayshaun switch off to manu to stop the penetration he's known for, while rip temporarily guards bowen because of his role in the Spurs offense.




Problem is, Bowen will be guarding Hamilton. Prince tends to get a lot of his scores off boards and in transition. Those are going to be limited against the Spurs. He will be tough for the Spurs if the Pistons choose to run a lot of screen rolls between him and Billups or Hamilton with him floating back beyond the arc.

Still, if Detroit wants to limit the number of times they attack the rim all the more better from the Spurs' POV.

[williemoonshine]

I dont think that T. Prince can beat the Spurs alone, if thats the only match up we are exposed at, then I like our chances. We just beat a Suns team it which we had NO answer for Amare, problem for them was everyone else was pretty much held in check. I see the same thing this series, Tayshaun is a matchup problem, but nothing that the Spurs D cant solve, Pop will find a way to take his advantage away.

[The Mask]

Robert Horry.


So the Spurs are starting Horry? LOL

[SPARKY]

I wouldn't be surprised to see GRobinson get some minutes versus Prince in this series. Physically he can match up with Prince and as we have been pleasantly surprised to find out, he has been willing and able to fit within the Spurs' team defense.

Just ask Carmelo if Big Dog hasn't learned some defensive tricks.

Piston fan needs to put the pipe down if they think Prince is going to lead the Pistons past the Spurs.

[fekz]

I dont think that T. Prince can beat the Spurs alone, if thats the only match up we are exposed at, then I like our chances. We just beat a Suns team it which we had NO answer for Amare, problem for them was everyone else was pretty much held in check. I see the same thing this series, Tayshaun is a matchup problem, but nothing that the Spurs D cant solve, Pop will find a way to take his advantage away.

You then have to worry about Billups. Like it or not, thats an exploitation waiting to happen.

[williemoonshine]

I think Tony has matured enough from the days he would struggle vs. Marburry. While it could very well be an "exploitation" waiting to happen vs. Billups, I have yet to see Tony be taken out of a game this year by an opposing player... only himself.

[SPARKY]

I think Tony has matured enough from the days he would struggle vs. Marburry. While it could very well be an "exploitation" waiting to happen vs. Billups, I have yet to see Tony be taken out of a game this year by an opposing player... only himself.

That becomes exploitative if the Spurs are able to get out and run. Detroit cannot hang with the Spurs in a transition game. I expect that Larry is going to make his team walk that rock up the court on every posession.

[SWC Bonfire]

That becomes exploitative if the Spurs are able to get out and run. Detroit cannot hang with the Spurs in a transition game. I expect that Larry is going to make his team walk that rock up the court on every posession.

Not that I'm discounting TP's speed, but how has Detroit fared against faster teams this year? Do they ever play uptempo for an entire game? Since I don't know, I'm not going to make the assumption that a lot of people made about the spurs that they can't run. I don't see a big, fat Shaq on Detroit's team.

[fekz]

Not that I'm discounting TP's speed, but how has Detroit fared against faster teams this year? Do they ever play uptempo for an entire game? Since I don't know, I'm not going to make the assumption that a lot of people made about the spurs that they can't run. I don't see a big, fat Shaq on Detroit's team.


The pistons went on an 8 game winning streak strictly off running earlier in the season. we are well capable of running and doing it well, but have been reluctant to with ben's bone spurs, rip, and tayshaun's ankle.

[SPARKY]

The pistons went on an 8 game winning streak strictly off running earlier in the season. we are well capable of running and doing it well, but have been reluctant to with ben's bone spurs, rip, and tayshaun's ankle.

Problem for the Pistons is that they will be facing the top transition defense in the NBA. Sorry.

[fekz]

Problem for the Pistons is that they will be facing the top transition defense in the NBA. Sorry.


No need to be sorry. your confident "sorry" really means nothing to me. We'll see how the teams match up game 1.

[picnroll]

Why Rip Hamilton is not considered a superstar is beyond me. All he does is show up and score 20 ppg every night, and hits clutch jumpers in the fourth quarter. And, I think he has the energy to both keep up with Manu on the defensive end, and run him ragged coming off all of those screens on the offensive end.

As noted in another thread Rip was 8 - 26 combined in the two meetings with the Spurs this year for a total of 19 points, somewhat below your "All he does is show up and score 20 ppg every night". If Rip can't step it up the Pistons are pretty well screwed, wouldn't you say?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Let's face it, neither team is really going to get out and run a whole lot. Are the Spurs capable of it? Absolutely. But will the Pistons let them? It seemed to me that the Pistons like to play aggressive on the offensive glass which can lead to some transition buckets, but if Detroit can take care of the ball as well as it did in its wins against the Heat then the transition game is probably not going to be the deciding factor, because even though the Spurs have an edge in terms of team speed I don't think that the Pistons are going to be so unaware defensively that the Spurs will really be able to push that advantage.

[SWC Bonfire]

The pistons went on an 8 game winning streak strictly off running earlier in the season. we are well capable of running and doing it well, but have been reluctant to with ben's bone spurs, rip, and tayshaun's ankle.

I guess the obvious thing that comes to mind is that the Spurs HAVE been running, even with <insert Spur here>'s bad ankles, Manu's body falling apart, and our best bench player sidelined with nerve damage in his back (Devin Brown).

We'll find out how the tempo of the game/series goes, I'm pretty confident in my Spurs to win slow or fast.

[FromWayDowntown]

I have a couple of thoughts about all of this:

1. I highly doubt that we'll ever see Manu matching up with Hamilton for long stretches. I'd think you'd see Bowen on Hamilton and Manu on Prince -- Manu may get Rip for brief stretches when the Spurs play Ginobili and Barry together, but I'd be surprised if those stretches were very long. The idea of Rip running Manu into the ground won't, IMO, ever come to be.

2. Of the guards in this series, I think Manu is the single best player of the bunch, because of his overall floor game. That's not to discount the abilities of Hamilton, Billups or anyone else on the Pistons' roster, but nobody in that mix is as explosive as Manu is and Detroit will have to focus its team defense on trying to control him in some fashion.

3. I'm appalled at how quickly people are willing to cite to the Pistons "experience" as a reason to find their backcourt superior. It's not as if there's some wide gulf in playoff experience between these teams -- Manu and Parker have played in just as many Finals (and won just as many titles) as Billups and Hamilton. The same holds for Bowen and Prince. All of these guys have been there and done that -- I can't see that "experience," as some sort of x factor, comes into play here at all. Just in terms of playoff games played, the numbers are remarkably close:

Parker 60
Ginobili 50
Bowen 73

Billups 61
Hamilton 58
Prince 56

4. I think Pistons fans underestimate how much the Spurs will miss Devin Brown as a wing in this series. I'd argue that a healthy Devin Brown might take all of Brent Barry's minutes in this series. FWIW, Devin was tremendous on the Black Sunday in Detroit when the Spurs hung tough without Timmy (and essentially without Manu), doing yeoman's work on Hamilton while scoring an efficient 18 points of his own (5-11 from the floor (4-6 inside the arc) and getting to the line for 8 FTA). It was only one game, but the absence of Devin Brown can't be taken lightly.

[bdubya]

A quick $.02:

Parker v. Billups I'd call a wash; between Parker's quickness and Billups's strength, I don't think either can stop the other. Seems to me Parker is a little more consistent, but when the pressure's on, C-Bill is, well, C-Bill.

Rip v. Manu: This one worries me a little. Seems like the Pistons are a little shaky defending a broken offensive set, when things get less predictable, and Ginobili could do some major damage there.

[May_The_Best_Team_Win]

Miami,

Was considered one of the better defensive teams in the league, im not sure what their rank was however we were able to get as many free looks at the basket as we wanted.

The question is if we do it against the Spurs will be be on or off? The Pistons have been anything but consistent, often beating themselves in the Heat series I.M.H.O.

Their scoring droughts are the only thing that worry me about this series, im confident they will get their open looks but man they have looked terrible at times with the exception of most of the last 2 games.

Im excited about this series. Thursday cannot get here soon enough.

[picnroll]

Miami,

Was considered one of the better defensive teams in the league, im not sure what their rank was however we were able to get as many free looks at the basket as we wanted.
.
On an individual basis as defenders:

Parker > D Jones
Manu > Wade
Bowen > E Jones
Duncan > Haslem
Nazr/Rasho > Shaq (you may argue this but since coming off screens and P&R is such a staple of the Pistons offense and Shaq is a major liability defending those and one reason the Pistons got so many open looks I'm going with Nazr/Rasho)

Team D: Spurs >>>> Heat

[FromWayDowntown]

Miami,

Was considered one of the better defensive teams in the league, im not sure what their rank was however we were able to get as many free looks at the basket as we wanted.

I'd be surprised if the Pistons got a lot of free looks in this series. The Spurs don't tend to allow many good looks (much less free looks) because of their team defensive philosophy. The Spurs will generally take a mismatch before giving up an open look -- a mismatch at least keeps a man on each shooter. The Spurs also allow the fewest 3PT attempts in the NBA (and by a wide margin -- Spurs allowed 10.7 3PT/gm this season; Indiana was second at 13.1. Detroit was 4th at 14.8) a testament IMO to their philosophy of sticking with shooters.

Miami, as an example, doesn't have that type of philosophy. Detroit could get lots of open looks against the Heat by involving Shaq in screens and forcing him to make decisions about staying back or coming out. I don't see the Pistons running a ton of screen and roll plays -- more screens to free shooters in a motion-type offense that essentially plays from inside out -- so the real question I think is whether the Spurs will try to play through screens or whether they'll switch things to keep shooters from having great looks. I'd think they'll try to fight through screens, but if they can't do that, you'll see a ton of switching at all points on the floor.

Bottom line, though, is that the Spurs won't give the Pistons many open looks. As a general rule around here, that just doesn't happen.


The question is if we do it against the Spurs will be be on or off? The Pistons have been anything but consistent, often beating themselves in the Heat series I.M.H.O.

If the Pistons get open looks, they'd be well advised to hit them.


Their scoring droughts are the only thing that worry me about this series, im confident they will get their open looks but man they have looked terrible at times with the exception of most of the last 2 games.

How, exactly, are the Pistons going to get open looks? You've got to explain that to me before I'll believe it as gospel. It would be contrary to everything the Spurs are to concede open looks, so I'm really curious how the Pistons are going to consistently get those kinds of opportunities in half-court sets.


Im excited about this series. Thursday cannot get here soon enough.

I agree with that.

[orhe]

^^ other than running rip off some screens they'll post their guys up.

[orhe]

DETROIT FANS: Does prince have trouble keeping up w/ guys who likes to slash rather than shoot jumpers? i looked up the box scores of some guys and they tend to have an efficient game.

[duncan_21]

Miami,

Was considered one of the better defensive teams in the league, im not sure what their rank was however we were able to get as many free looks at the basket as we wanted.

The question is if we do it against the Spurs will be be on or off? The Pistons have been anything but consistent, often beating themselves in the Heat series I.M.H.O.

Their scoring droughts are the only thing that worry me about this series, im confident they will get their open looks but man they have looked terrible at times with the exception of most of the last 2 games.

Im excited about this series. Thursday cannot get here soon enough.

Yeah, but miami had alot of injuries. Maybe during the reg season they were good, during the ecf's they were bad.

[Wallace ²]

It seemed like Rasheed got scared out of the post kind of easily against Miami. He'd try to take it into the paint every once in a while against Haslem, but when the ran the Zo'Neal lineup he started living at the three point line. If the Spurs can keep him out there I think that's big because he can be a dangerous 3 baller if he can get some points in the paint first and get into the flow of the game, but if he starts his game shooting out there he won't be nearly as threatening. Posting Prince or Billups is a bit of a gamble with the Spurs shot blockers looking to help. The Heat didn't rotate well at all on D, but that's not a mistake the Spurs will make much. And Dice I think is better off a pic and roll for that baseline jumper rather than forcing a post matchup. If he's being covered by anyone but Horry in the block he's going to be giving up size and athleticism.

This was the plan when Zo and Shaq were in the game at the same time. If you noticed, it was always Sheed and Dyess in when those 2 were in (barring foul trouble). This was so Detroit could do pick and pops and force Shaq or Zo out on the perimeter to play defense. I think that strategy worked out well and I'm sure Larry will think of something to get Duncan or Nazr to come out and have to play around the perimeter.

[THE X-FACTOR]

Both back courts are great. They both bring different looks. We will see which is best after the finals I guess.