Analyzing the last defensive play of Game 1

[SpurSpurSpurs]

I know, we already lost the game. But I was just wondering who should have sticked with Battier? AFAIK, RJ was his defender but I think they switched (don't quote me on this one, can't really remember). So, should Tony have just denied the ball from Battier knowing that a 3 makes them lose or should George be the one rotating to defend Shane?

[DeadlyDynasty]

You don't rotate off the only 3-point shooter to double Mike Conley...Parker screwed the pooch.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Well, RJ was left behind after the Gasol screen. Prolly it was a BB players instinct to cover the person who has the ball. I would have loved if Hill left Tony Allen when Parker made the mistake. Our 2 bigs already locked the rebounders of Memphis.

[TimDunkem]

What about the "defensive play" before that possession? You know, the one where Allen (or Mayonnaise, I'm not quite sure) just barreled through the lane for an uncontested layup? The kind of open layup that says, "We'd rather let you have the sure thing instead of having to rely on our shitty defense."


That was the play that screwed the Spurs.

[Warlord23]

After a while, I was happy that the Spurs were conceding *just* an open layup rather than a layup + foul resulting in 3-point plays.

[Obstructed_View]

Was it a defensive breakdown, or were the Spurs just doing what they did and running two guys at the ball like they'd done the whole game? It's not like they've placed a premium on limiting three point attempts lately.

[spur2themax]

Parker was supposed to rotate. He didn't. On to game 2 now.

[TimDunkem]

After a while, I was happy that the Spurs were conceding *just* an open layup rather than a layup + foul resulting in 3-point plays.

A contested layup plus a foul is not a sure thing like an open layup - simple as that. You don't allow teams to get an open layup without even taking time off the clock.

[antgomez2009]

I concur with Deadly Dynasty!! You dont leave the 3pt shooter knowing if he makes it, your down by one. He should of let Mike take it to the hoop for a jumper or whatever he may have decided to do, that way the spurs have the ball tied with a chance to win the game at the end or very least head into overtime! SMH, bonehead error, ahh well, thats over with, on to the next!!

[LakerHater]

Who gives a shit... its over, move on!

[Warlord23]

A contested layup plus a foul is not a sure thing like an open layup - simple as that. You don't allow teams to get an open layup without even taking time off the clock.

Should've used the blue font, or is your sarcasm meter color blind too?

[antgomez2009]

Who gives a shit... its over, move on!


True, they will get it right in game two!

[TimDunkem]

Should've used the blue font, or is your sarcasm meter color blind too?
Does it matter? You didn't use the font regardless. Either way, I knew you were being sarcastic, but I just didn't give a shit.

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Parker was supposed to rotate. He didn't. On to game 2 now.
Really? That's what you think? He should have stayed, denied the ball to avoid the 3 and let the game be decided on an OT or maybe won the game. But it already happened. He left Shane and that was his mistake then George was hoping for a rebound or boxing out his man which in no way Allen can make a tip in with his height, distance from the basket and how clogged it was inside.


After a while, I was happy that the Spurs were conceding *just* an open layup rather than a layup + foul resulting in 3-point plays.

I'd rather see them give Memphis a hard foul and earn their points from the line like what the opponent is doing to them. It's like our team is not in PO's mode yet. Too soft really.

[Warlord23]

GNSF being GNSF in this thread.

[Solid D]

It depends on what the coaching staff had called but ordinarily, TP should have stayed with his man (Battier). Since RJ switched to Conley on the right wing in transition after Parker was back-picked by Battier. TP dug down on Conley and since Tony Allen drew George away from the corner and into the middle, that left TP no choice but to stay with Battier. He didn't.

Credit to the Grizzlies execution in that early offense play (I've seen Dallas run that with Dirk and Kidd with similar results). Battier continued flare to the left wing away from TP and Conley's pass led Shane even farther away from TP for the perfect scoring option.

[DJ Mbenga]

i will always rather defend a layup instead of a 3

[Hoops Czar]

i will always rather defend a layup instead of a 3

If you want to win a championship, you guard both. At worst, Conley ties the game.

[TimDunkem]

GNSF being GNSF in this thread.
TBH, that shitty, "I'd rather give up a layup" comment is something a stereotypical GNSF would say.

[Warlord23]

TBH, that shitty, "I'd rather give up a layup" comment is something a stereotypical GNSF would say.

Actually, the more stereotypical GNSF move is to not recognize sarcasm/trolling, and to respond to every post seriously, thereby making trolls very effective on this site. Glad to see that you've read the playbook.

[Solid D]

Actually, as open as Battier was...RJ was even more wide open on the last play of the game.

After the scramble and blitz to George Hill, once Jefferson caught it and fired from the top, there wasn't a defender within 8-10 feet of him. Sometimes shots fall...for the Spurs in the last minute of games recently... they haven't been converting.

[TimDunkem]

Actually, the more stereotypical GNSF move is to not recognize sarcasm/trolling, and to respond to every post seriously, thereby making trolls very effective on this site. Glad to see that you've read the playbook.
Actually, a more GNSF-like move is to make a shitty comment to a serious post, continue to act like a douche when the poster you made the stupid remark to continues to discuss the topic at hand, then fail to read the next reply where he stated he knew you were being sarcastic, and finally close the series of shitty posts stating that you were trolling in a GNSF-like manner.

[Cane]

Actually, as open as Battier was...RJ was even more wide open on the last play of the game.

After the scramble and blitz to George Hill, once Jefferson caught it and fired from the top, there wasn't a defender within 8-10 feet of him. Sometimes shots fall...for the Spurs in the last minute of games recently... they haven't been converting.

Yea and that was after Bonner had a couple of wide open 3's. Both the Spurs and Grizz had way too many wide open opportunities in the 4th. You're just asking to give away the game like that.

[Warlord23]

Actually, a more GNSF-like move is to make a shitty comment to a serious post, continue to act like a douche when the poster you made the stupid remark to continues to discuss the topic at hand, then fail to read the next reply where he stated he knew you were being sarcastic, and finally close the series of shitty posts stating that you were trolling in a GNSF-like manner.

So you knew I was being sarcastic, and yet tried to post a counterpoint to my remark as if it was a serious one?

Looks like you trolled yourself then. Man, you've really set the bar high for the GN community. While you're at it, can you also provide your insightful rebuttals in the 500 or so "lol Spurs" threads on this forum? That'll really show all the "shitty posters".

[TimDunkem]

So you knew I was being sarcastic, and yet tried to post a counterpoint to my remark as if it was a serious one?

Looks like you trolled yourself then. Man, you've really set the bar high for the GN community. While you're at it, can you also provide your insightful rebuttals in the 500 or so "lol Spurs" threads on this forum? That'll really show all the "shitty posters".
I felt maybe you'd drop the shitty poster routine for just a second, but that obviously isn't going to happen.

[Warlord23]

I felt maybe you'd drop the shitty poster routine for just a second, but that obviously isn't going to happen.

Well, I feel fairly certain that your routine of getting riled up by sarcastic posts on message boards is no act, so there's no question of dropping it. Here's a lead for you .. there's a guy who poses as an army commander to boost the fan base's morale. I'm not entirely sure he really is an army man. Sounds like a job for a message board crusader like you. Do us proud and defend truth and honesty with every gray post you can muster.

[Warlord23]

What can I say, I'm pretty good with my predictions :lol

[Agloco]

You don't rotate off the only 3-point shooter to double Mike Conley...Parker screwed the pooch.

This. I don't know if that was Parkers assignment, but Conley had two guys on him just inside the three point line. Bad mistake.

[Agloco]

AFAIK, RJ was his defender but I think they switched (don't quote me on this one, can't really remember).

Bruce would have been in Shane's pocket on that shot........:hat

[SpurSpurSpurs]

Bruce would have been in Shane's pocket on that shot........:hat

True... but Bruce ain't here no more. :(

[Obstructed_View]

This. I don't know if that was Parkers assignment, but Conley had two guys on him just inside the three point line. Bad mistake.

There was no double team. RJ was trying to force Conley baseline and lost containment, getting himself screened in the process. Parker stepped over to cover him, Battier went away from Parker and someone should have taken Battier.

[Trill Clinton]

Parker was supposed to rotate. He didn't. On to game 2 now.

[Obstructed_View]

Parker rotated from Battier. The problem is that Hill didn't rotate to him.

[ShoogarBear]

Actually, as open as Battier was...RJ was even more wide open on the last play of the game.

After the scramble and blitz to George Hill, once Jefferson caught it and fired from the top, there wasn't a defender within 8-10 feet of him. Sometimes shots fall...for the Spurs in the last minute of games recently... they haven't been converting.

As long as we're talking about RJ, he almost managed to throw the ball away on that last play, and a few minutes earlier he almost did it on a simple perimeter pass. And over the last couple of weeks of the season, he's made more than a few turnovers or near-turnovers on basic plays towards the end of games. I'm really starting to worry about his nerve.

[Solid D]

Parker rotated from Battier. The problem is that Hill didn't rotate to him.

Hill couldn't. Tony Allen had already drawn Hill away from the corner and into the middle as the pass was being made. TP was on his own. Besides, Duncan had already moved to help on Conley in the middle of the lane. The only perimeter Memphis shooter was Battier at the time of the pass.


As long as we're talking about RJ, he almost managed to throw the ball away on that last play, and a few minutes earlier he almost did it on a simple perimeter pass. And over the last couple of weeks of the season, he's made more than a few turnovers or near-turnovers on basic plays towards the end of games. I'm really starting to worry about his nerve.

Good point. Cause for concern.

[Obstructed_View]

Hill couldn't. Tony Allen had already drawn Hill away from the corner and into the middle as the pass was being made. TP was on his own. Besides, Duncan had already moved to help on Conley in the middle of the lane. The only perimeter Memphis shooter was Battier at the time of the pass.

It's true that Hill couldn't rotate, but only because he wasn't paying attention to anything but Allen. His job in the Spurs' defense is to rotate in that situation. I don't think the loss is on any of the guards for the Spurs, but if we're pointing fingers on that last shot, it goes to Hill and not Parker.

[Yorae]

Take a look at this.
http://www.48minutesofhell.com/so-what-happened-on-that-shane-battier-3-pointer

[Obstructed_View]

George wasn't paying attention, which is why he followed Allen. You can't rotate if you aren't watching what's going on.

[Solid D]

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/assistmagazines/2003/05/mag_0305.pdf

"Also, if there’s penetration of the player with the ball from the corner to the middle, the defender that is the first pass away does not help. He maintains the closed stance. Our goal is to make the most difficult possible situation for the team that wants to take a three-point shot."...

"There are many players that have a good first step off the dribble and there are the those that jump and shoot well at the end of the penetration. However, there are only a few that can shoot in the space between the start of the dribble and the position they finally reach under the basket. That’s because they have a defender by their side and another one, usually a tall player, that runs towards him to stop penetration to the basket. These shots in the lane are difficult, if not impossible ones to make and usually you will find that the offensive players in these situations will kick the ball out to a teammate. In this situation, the defender who goes to cover the ball, forces the player with ball to the baseline. In short, we don’t help out defensively if we are one pass away from the ball. Every time we force the player with the ball to the baseline, and we help at the penetration from the help side (i.e. from the lower position, a defender from the baseline)

Like I said originally, I'm not sure what rules the coaching staff had implemented but typically the player one pass away in the Spurs's scheme positions himself to deny the pass and defend against the 3-point shot.

[Solid D]

One more thing regarding the rules implemented at the time. The Spurs will trap WITH the player that is one pass away...if a trapping the ball scheme is in effect. It didn't look like that was the scheme on the play where Battier hit the 3.

[ShoogarBear]

http://www.fiba.com/downloads/assistmagazines/2003/05/mag_0305.pdf



That was back when Pop cared about defense.

[Solid D]

That was back when Pop cared about defense.

Well, yeah or so it would seem. If only all of his players cared as much.

[ShoogarBear]

Seriously, I don't see the Spurs emphasize forcing baseline any more. They did that when they had two big men waiting back there. Pop doesn't seem to believe in that any more.

[Solid D]

I beg to differ. I'm sort of disappointed in your take on this Shoogar. As much basketball as you watch, including Spurs basketball, I'm surprised you don't see how they still force baseline.

[Hemotivo]

I'm surprised you don't see how they still force baseline.

yep, they still do that

[ShoogarBear]

They may go through the motions, but the number of times teams drive down Broadway against the Spurs now seems to be just as much as any other team in the league.

[SenorSpur]

I beg to differ. I'm sort of disappointed in your take on this Shoogar. As much basketball as you watch, including Spurs basketball, I'm surprised you don't see how they still force baseline.

Yeah, but the problem is they no longer have a rim-protector to meet the penetrator. Oh Duncan can occasionally get a block or change a shot, but the erosion of is defensive skills, and the retirement of Bowen, have precipitated the Spurs defensive decline.

[ducks]

Parker rotated from Battier. The problem is that Hill didn't rotate to him.

hill needs to go

[Solid D]

Yeah, but the problem is they no longer have a rim-protector to meet the penetrator. Oh Duncan can occasionally get a block or change a shot, but the erosion of is defensive skills, and the retirement of Bowen, have precipitated the Spurs defensive decline.

You have no argument from me about the defensive deficiencies of the Spurs. The question of the thread is about defensive assignments on the Battier 3 play.

[Solid D]

The Spurs trapped on the ball a lot in this game using the player that is 1 pass away from the man with the ball. If the play called for TP to blitz him, then TP did what he was supposed to do. However, normally when they are playing straight-up after a switch, the Spurs aren't supposed to leave their man if they are 1 pass away.

[GhosTown]

The game was put in jeopardy at the 1:06 mark with us up 4pts. Not the Shane play. Why didn't we go offense for defense while Ghill was shooting free throws for the 4 pt lead. Dice for Bonner, and Gasol would not have score with only 10 secs off the game clock.

Ask Pop that very important, yet basic coaching move when you are protecting a lead at the end of a game.

[TE]

You don't rotate off the only 3-point shooter to double Mike Conley...Parker screwed the pooch.

Thread was analyzed by the first reply, and the irony is Lakerfan pointed it out.


WTF was Parker doing attempting to double Mike Conley?

[Obstructed_View]

I beg to differ. I'm sort of disappointed in your take on this Shoogar. As much basketball as you watch, including Spurs basketball, I'm surprised you don't see how they still force baseline.

If they still force baseline, then why is it that Conley didn't go baseline? They haven't done it this way in years. See the 2006 series against the Mavs where they drove to the basket from the top of the key maybe a thousand times.

Wouldn't matter anyway; the Spurs don't have any shot blockers in the paint anymore. You can get by with Oberto and Horry because they play great positional and help defense. It's not a coincidence that the Spurs have failed to be successful with only one of those guys or less.

In the old Spurs' defense, RJ ensures that Conley goes baseline. Not only did he not do that, but he got himself picked by Gasol. Is a wide open three by Battier a better shot than Conley driving to the basket? Those are the questions you ask when you abandon size and defense for six seconds or less basketball, but the answer is always "we should have made more shots".

Go back and watch game 1, and see the Spurs sending two defenders at the ball, counting on their speed to close the gap when the ball moves.

[Obstructed_View]

By the way, I didn't think that Parker was over there to trap Conley, I thought he was rotating because RJ got picked and was chasing. The trap came from the other side and when RJ let him free it effectively removed two Spurs defenders from the play.

[ShoogarBear]

You have no argument from me about the defensive deficiencies of the Spurs. The question of the thread is about defensive assignments on the Battier 3 play.

My comment wasn't specifically about the Battier play, but my impression of a evolving lack of commitment to their traditional defensive philosophies.

[Solid D]

If they still force baseline, then why is it that Conley didn't go baseline? They haven't done it this way in years. See the 2006 series against the Mavs where they drove to the basket from the top of the key maybe a thousand times.

Wouldn't matter anyway; the Spurs don't have any shot blockers in the paint anymore. You can get by with Oberto and Horry because they play great positional and help defense. It's not a coincidence that the Spurs have failed to be successful with only one of those guys or less.

In the old Spurs' defense, RJ ensures that Conley goes baseline. Not only did he not do that, but he got himself picked by Gasol. Is a wide open three by Battier a better shot than Conley driving to the basket? Those are the questions you ask when you abandon size and defense for six seconds or less basketball, but the answer is always "we should have made more shots".

Go back and watch game 1, and see the Spurs sending two defenders at the ball, counting on their speed to close the gap when the ball moves.

Your pathetic take that the Spurs haven't forced teams baseline as a philosophy in years is not only "obstructed", it's flat-out wrong. The Spurs forced Memphis baseline no fewer than 35 times in Game 1 and the only time Memphis was able to get into the lane without help defenders was on the first play of the game with Gasol off a screen/roll pass where Jefferson arrived late from the baseline, a couple of other forced drives into defenders trying to draw contact, plus a couple of other times with players cutting and receiving passes off screens. There were a couple of transition situations, but basically the Grizzlies did some of their scoring FROM the baseline on well-defended shots or when help was late.

You and Shoogar need to take better note of what is going on out there.

Now, then. Let's talk about missed or late help defense. THAT is a different story. The Spurs are small. They like to play small sometimes. And their team defense is often slow to rotate and comes complete with players who just aren't paying attention. Jefferson, Blair and Neal are repeat offenders and Timmy and Dice aren't as quick to respond as they used to be.

There are 2 main reasons the Spurs were 16th in the NBA in points allowed in the paint. It's not transition D. It's not defensive philosophy...a philosophy that hasn't changed other than more trapping on the ball. It's that: 1) the Spurs play sloppy and late on help defense... with spotty attentiveness by some of their players AND 2) they are small.

So YES, the Spurs' basic defensive philosophy is still to direct the dribbler to the baseline and keep the ball out of the middle. Watch the game for what is really going on.

Oh, and on the last defensive play, Jefferson actually turned his body to try to force Conley to dribble toward the sideline and baseline. Conley juked him and then took advantage of the back screen from Gasol to free himself for the dribble drive back to the FT line.

Maybe what you and Shoogar really meant was the Spurs haven't played really good defense in years. That, my friends, would be a very true statement.

[Solid D]

You don't rotate off the only 3-point shooter to double Mike Conley...Parker screwed the pooch.

One could make an argument that since Battier (.385 career) is a much better 3-pt shooter than Tony Allen (don't even bother), that George and Tony both should have kept one eye on Shane. Neither one did. Several times in Game 1, Memphis pulled a help defender away from the intended scorer, obviously by design. The Spurs will have to make adjustments for this tactic.

Things like this can be averted by being attentive and alert, as referenced in my prior post.

[Horse]

On the herd Bruce Bowen said it was Jeffersons fault, I trust Bruce.

[Solid D]

On the herd Bruce Bowen said it was Jeffersons fault, I trust Bruce.

Jefferson's fault for?
A. Cross-matching on Conley and forcing Parker to match with Battier?
B. Not forcing Conley baseline, no excuses?
C. Not switching with Parker after the Battier screen?
D. Not communicating?

What was Bruce referring to?

[timvp]

Yeah, the Spurs still force baseline. Pop still benches players if they break the rule. He's not as strict as in years past but forcing baseline is still definitely part of what the Spurs do.

Since the loss of Bowen and the drop of mobility in Duncan and Ginobili in recent years, the rule might be better described as "not allowing middle" instead of "force baseline". But it's the same principal, though the less defensively skilled personnel and perhaps a softening by Pop has massaged the rule a little bit.

As far as the Battier three-pointer, it was mostly Parker's fault but he wasn't the only one to blame. RJ jumped the screen to not allow Conley to go middle. However, Conley faked him out and then Gasol stuck his arm out to knock RJ off balance. RJ's mistake was to not clear Gasol when he jumped the screen. By being next to Gasol on the topside of Conley, RJ basically was screwed no matter what Conley would have done. RJ almost made the right move but he needed to clear Gasol by about another foot to avoid the armbar backscreen.

Parker covering middle wasn't a horrible move considering that RJ was totally out of the play at that point and the next line of defense was in the middle of the paint. What Parker didn't know is that Allen dove to the basket at the exact same moment, which took away the rotation man (Hill). If Allen would have stayed in the corner, Hill would have undoubtedly rotated to Battier since Allen can't shoot.

In hindsight, even with Allen diving, Hill should have still rotated to Battier. As it turned out, Duncan already rotated to pick up Allen. Double-teaming a diving Allen is obviously not what the weakside defense should have been doing.

That said, with the Spurs being up two points and Battier the only three-point shooter on the floor, TP shouldn't have rotated. Given the jumbled defense at that point, the Grizzlies probably still score to tie the game ... but at least they wouldn't have gotten a clear shot to steal the game.

RJ could have done better with the initial screen. Parker could have known time and score better. Hill could have made a spectacular, game-saving rotation. None of that happened and Battier hit a big shot.

It sucks but thems the breaks, I guess.

Get Game 2.

[Obstructed_View]

Wow, how far the mighty have fallen when paying attention and making a routine rotation becomes "spectactular".

[timvp]

Wow, how far the mighty have fallen when paying attention and making a routine rotation becomes "spectactular".

Routine for the 1999 Spurs? Yeah, probably. This year, not so much. Although that's why the Spurs are at best considered above average defensively, now.

[Obstructed_View]

Routine for the 1999 Spurs? Yeah, probably. This year, not so much. Although that's why the Spurs are at best considered above average defensively, now.

I'm sure you and I are in agreement that well-executed defense was never, ever boring.