Thomas82
04-19-2011, 05:15 PM
I read this on another board this morning and found it was very interesting, and thought I would share it. At this point, we could only hope and pray that this is true. If nothing else, you have to admit it was very well thought out.
Posted by TodTango on 4-17-11
LONG POST!!!
For some of you younger people, you might not know what a rope-a-dope is.
Using the Urban Dictionary for a definition states it's the following:
Rope-A-Dope
A strategy to appear weak to convince an opponent to attack and fall into a trap.
Since I'm old enough to remember, the Rope-A-Dope was used first by none other than Muhammad Ali against George Foreman in a huge fight in the country of Zaire. The fight had the moniker, The Rumble In The Jungle.
Ali famously leaned on the ropes in a protected stance allowing himself to be hit with lesser punches but ducking the big ones. Once Foreman was punched out from too many punches, Ali would go in for the kill with a vicious counter-attack.
Okay so why is this important and what does that have to do with the San Antonio Spurs?
A great many of the NBA Media partners feel that the Spurs have turned into, more or less, a version of the Steve Nash-led Run & Gun Phoenix Suns. They perceive that their primary offensive set consists of having Parker or Ginobili drive into the lane, get the defense to over-commit and then pass out to a wide-open 3 point shooter. And for a large part of the season, that's literally how the Spurs won so many games. They lead the league in 3 point FG% at 39.7% It's because of the 3 point shot, that some of them even say that Duncan has been relegated to be just a cog in the system and point to his decrease in overall production eschewing the killer ratings averages that Tim has had his entire career.
Sortable 82games "Simple Ratings" for NBA Players
http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG8.HTM
It's hard to believe for as bad as they say Duncan played the stats show that the guy who finished 1 place above Tim is some dude named Kobe Bryant. The guy who finished 1 place behind Duncan is that other dude's teammate, Pau Gasol. Is Tim just fooling the media or is it a continued case of the media just taking him for granted? I think it's the latter.
Defensively, the Spurs played less of a half-court pillar-to-post kind of defense that we remember from years past when Bruce was Pop's Killer Rottweiler. Pop said in an interview during All-Star break, that the Spurs had been working in practice to implement what he terms "On Demand Stops." It's the defense that's needed when it's late in the game and the team needs to make that one critical stop. The question then becomes, which players are on the court when that On Demand Stop is needed?
Let's go with some absolute truths here:
Duncan-With all those ALL-NBA D team placements, is going to be on the court. While his lateral movement isn't what it used to be, his knowledge and length still make him formidable.
Ginobili-Is actually the Spurs best perimeter defender. Unfortunately, he has too much responsibility to be just a bulldog defender, so he has to choose his spots when he can play solid defense. He gambles a lot on steals but he gets his hands on so many balls that are within 6 feet and in, from him. He is a strong rebounder from the 2 as well.
Parker-Is what one would call, a good position defender. Before, you could say that Parker didn't really have anything to show for such good position defense, but now he does a solid job of staying in front of opposing point guards and now, he's matched his season average for steals at 1.2 SPG
McDyess-Knows his limitations and is a veteran bigman who has played in the biggest games on the biggest stage. The tip-in at Staples against the LAL was a real shining moment and showed that experience still counts for something.
George Hill-Undersized Combo Guard with long arms to help him compensate. Played great against Dallas last year at home but wasn't up to the task against Phoenix. Another year and he's upped the intensity.
and now for the darkhorse:
Tiago Splitter-Brazilian Center who has years of International Experience playing for both his National Team and Pro Ball in the Spanish league, which is generally considered to be the 2nd best league in the World.
So why did I use the term Rope-A-Dope?
It came to me during the last game of the season after Manu went down with the elbow injury which we know now to be limited and will not stop him from playing in this series. There was a stretch there where Tim Duncan and Tiago Splitter played TOGETHER. It was kind of eye-opening. For so long in Spursverse, there have been many a night of worry and anguish over the defensive shortcomings of Matt Bonner and DeJuan Blair. While each provide an important tool in Coach Gregg Popovich's Swiss Army Knife, it seemed as if those tools would go dull from time to time. That dullness is what Spurs fans would complain about.
Fast forward to Phoenix, the last game of the season. At the 10:04 mark of the 2nd quarter Tiago Splitter comes in to the game. Let's take a snapshot look of what he provided the Spurs defensively while playing the post alongside Matt Bonner.
1st D set: Fights Lopez for position, Lopez gets the tip, but it's a lucky bounce and he's in position for the rebound.
2nd D set: Vince Carter gets a outside J over Bonner who is slow on the rotation.
At the 8:45 mark is where it get's interesting...Tim Duncan comes in for Matt Bonner. It's a rare thing to see both Tim and Tiago on the court at the same time. Consider this late, the last game of the season. Manu is out, The Spurs are losing 34-52 to the Suns.
Here's a snapshot of what Tiago provided during his time on the court with Tim.
1st set Offense:Tim motions to Tiago, the ball goes to Danny Green and he runs a pick and roll on Tiago's side, the look isn't there and he holds the ball. Duncan flashes across the lane while Splitter backs down his man to the low block. Duncan could pass to Splitter here but opts to pass to Green for an open 3, which he misses. What needs to be pointed out is that, not one time in that set, did it look like Tim or Tiago looked confused or out of place, each had a defined role on that play set and they rolled through each option and spot with no delay. Could it be that this is Pop's ploy for the playoffs?
1st set D-Off the rebound the Suns run a fast break. An outlet pass to Aaron Brooks who attempts an alley-oop to Warrick over Danny Green. He misses and Duncan gets a rebound. That's a stop.
2nd set O-Duncan outlets to Hill on the break with Splitter and Jefferson filling the lanes.RJ takes right and breaks for the arc and Tiago goes middle, straight for the rim. Hill sees Tiago break clean from Lopez and easily finds him for a layup.
2nd set D-It's another fast break opp and RJ loses his man on the penetration and rotates late to Josh Childress who makes a challenged lay-up.
3rd Set O-Hill brings the ball up. A right side Triangle is set with Tim on the FT line extended and RJ to the side at the 3 point arc. Splitter pulls Warrick out to of the key to the left. Duncan holds his position on Lopez then breaks clean. Hill passes over the top to Duncan. 2 points on the layup and foul for the And 1.
3rd Set D-Tim misses the FT attempt. It's rebounded by Warrick who tips it to Lopez. An outlet pass to Carter, who passes back to Brooks the PG. Duncan and Splitter seems to be playing a soft zone where Duncan shades Lopez and Splitter is in the middle but hedges towards Tim but must be able to keep Warrick within gathering distance. Brooks dribbles right and sees Lopez make a dive cut to the lane but is cutoff by Splitter, so he passes to Warrick instead. Splitter makes it back to Warrick to contest a possible jumpshot so Warrick holds and then passes back to Brooks for a different set late in the clock. Brooks misses the shot and while Duncan is perfect position to get the rebound but it evades him. It falls to RJ whose tied up for Jump Ball. That's a stop.
4th set D-RJ loses the tip. Splitter now has Lopez on the block and Tim has Warrick on the FT line extended.The ball is tipped out to Carter who gives the ball to Brooks to reset the offense. Pick and Roll with Lopez is called. Splitter hedges out towards Brooks to stop penetration. Tim is within 6 feet and shading Warrick.And it's the same play as the 2nd set D, except this time...Duncan and Splitter have switched roles. Warrick decides to try to shoot the J but Tim challenges and Warrick is off-target. Tiago is battling Lopez for position down low and is called for the foul. It's a 50-50 call but refs give the ball to Phoenix.
5th Set D-Side out of Bounds. Tony Parker comes in for Danny Green. The matchups are Carter/Hill, Brooks/Parker, Jefferson/Childress, Splitter/Lopez on the Right side Low-Block, and Duncan/Warrick at the FT Line. Carter to Brooks.Brooks sets up a middle pick and roll with Warrick. Tim hedges Brooks who then bounce passes to Warrick. Tim is there to challenge but it's George Hill on the help side, who gets his hand on the ball and it goes out of bounds. Phoenix ball.
6th Set D-Baseline Out of bounds. Same matchups. It's imporant to know that Duncan and Spitter are in the middle of the low block area. Childress to Brooks. Brooks attempts an off balance jumper. Rebound Tim Duncan. Splitter establishes position and Lopez can't get to the ball. That's a Stop.
4th Set O-Duncan outlets to Parker on the left side on the break. Splitter fills middle and Hill fills left. The play continues. Carter is back 1st to defend at the FT line. Brooks is late to Parker with the ball on the right. Splitter is trailing middle with Lopez and Warrick just in front of him eyeing Tony. Tony makes a beautiful bounce pass to Hill who has a lane for a split-second but is closed off by Brooks and Lopez. Hill pulls his dribble and backs up. Splitter dives to the rim and then rotates to outside the left low block while Hill goes to FT line extended. Duncan is now coming into the play and gets the ball at high post and then sets up a screen on Lopez at left FT extended. Splitter breaks for the right side low block being defended by Warrick with a close hedge by Carter who is spying Parker at the right side sideline 3 point arc. It's now Duncan on the clearout against Lopez. He has the ball and attacks middle and shoots. Splitter moves back to the left to draw Warrick away and Tim gets an easy layup.
7th Set D-Inbounds Lopez to Brooks.Splitter runs down 1st to provide help defense while Hill matches up with Brooks. Jefferson is at the charge circle matching up with Childress. Parker is to the right at the sideline 3 matching up wtih Carter. Duncan is at the FT line shading Warrick and then moving to Lopez who was coming up after the inbounds. Spliter then matches up with Warrick. Brooks now sets a play. A double screen of Lopex and Childress free Carter from Parker. Vince gets a bounce pass on the cut to the rim but is challenged by Duncan at the rim and leaves it short. Splitter moves from the FT line to the charge circle and tips the ball to Hill. That's a stop.
5th Set O-Hill brings the ball up. It's RJ to the right. Tiago in the middle with Tim. Tim taps him and Tiago ups the pace to give Hill an option. Parker is at the left side opposite Jefferson. The cross matchups on the stop has Lopes guarding Hill at the top left arc. Childress/Jefferson right sideline 3, Brooks/Parker Warrick is under the FT line right shading towards Childress. Carter seems to be following Splitter who is now at the left side T. The ball gets passed to Duncan to the left, who now gets Lopez with Warrick moving to Hill. Tim passes to Tony to setup a side pick and roll. Tiago moves to the right side block.Tim cuts but Lopez hedges well enough to deny him the ball. Splitter drags Carter to the right side of the lane.Tim now tries a backdoor cut but Lopez' arms are still denying TP a good look. Tim runs through to the FT line and receives the pass. Parker goes low post and then out to the side to re-establish another side pick and roll. Tim passes back to TP and sets that screen. The ball comes to Tim, he sets to shoot and FOUL on Lopez. 2 Free Throws.
Phoenix brings in subs. Nash comes in, Frye comes in, Gortat comes in, and Grant Hill comes in. Out goes Brooks, Lopez, Warrick, and Childress.
Tim makes both FTs.
8th Set D-Nash brings up the ball. Matchups are Parker/Nash, Splitter/Frye, Duncan/Gortat, Geo Hill/Carter and Jefferson/Gra Hill. Pass goes into Gortatat the left FT line. Nash drags Parker to setup a screen on Hill as Carter makes the cut to the rim. Foul on George Hill.
Timeout. End of this Spurs set.at 5:49 mark, McDyess and Gary Neal is subbed in for Tiago Splitter and George Hill.
Let's think about this for a second.
All of that and the key result to point out is that the Spurs went on a 8-2 run from 8:45 mark to 5:49. Roughly 3 minutes.
The set was a mixed bag of players but the main constant was that Duncan and Splitter played the posts. Not once did they talk about where to go. Not once did they get in each other's way in a play set. On fastbreaks, Splitter knows that it's up to him to get deep position on the low-block so he runs hard to the spot while Tim trails to the FT line. They both defended hard, they matched up well knowing which player they needed to get to, even on crossmatchups from fast breaks.
Now imagine if you will a team that has a healthy Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. A well rested Tim Duncan and Antonio McDyess. George Hill, Richard Jefferson, and Gary Neal under the baptism of fire. And a Lone Stranger from Brazil who seemed like nothing but as I've shown you up there, has something to offer...7 feet of basketball know-how. It's raw but seemingly effective.
It's what we all crave...2 7 footers that Pop can employ against BIG teams.
Pop knows that he has the option to play fast like he did regular season but also, he can now play slow like he has in seasons past because he has 2 7 footers that know how to play with each other.
I think Pop is pulling a Rope-A-Dope y'all. If I'm right, I wanted to put it out there in black and white.
Posted by TodTango on 4-17-11
LONG POST!!!
For some of you younger people, you might not know what a rope-a-dope is.
Using the Urban Dictionary for a definition states it's the following:
Rope-A-Dope
A strategy to appear weak to convince an opponent to attack and fall into a trap.
Since I'm old enough to remember, the Rope-A-Dope was used first by none other than Muhammad Ali against George Foreman in a huge fight in the country of Zaire. The fight had the moniker, The Rumble In The Jungle.
Ali famously leaned on the ropes in a protected stance allowing himself to be hit with lesser punches but ducking the big ones. Once Foreman was punched out from too many punches, Ali would go in for the kill with a vicious counter-attack.
Okay so why is this important and what does that have to do with the San Antonio Spurs?
A great many of the NBA Media partners feel that the Spurs have turned into, more or less, a version of the Steve Nash-led Run & Gun Phoenix Suns. They perceive that their primary offensive set consists of having Parker or Ginobili drive into the lane, get the defense to over-commit and then pass out to a wide-open 3 point shooter. And for a large part of the season, that's literally how the Spurs won so many games. They lead the league in 3 point FG% at 39.7% It's because of the 3 point shot, that some of them even say that Duncan has been relegated to be just a cog in the system and point to his decrease in overall production eschewing the killer ratings averages that Tim has had his entire career.
Sortable 82games "Simple Ratings" for NBA Players
http://www.82games.com/1011/ROLRTG8.HTM
It's hard to believe for as bad as they say Duncan played the stats show that the guy who finished 1 place above Tim is some dude named Kobe Bryant. The guy who finished 1 place behind Duncan is that other dude's teammate, Pau Gasol. Is Tim just fooling the media or is it a continued case of the media just taking him for granted? I think it's the latter.
Defensively, the Spurs played less of a half-court pillar-to-post kind of defense that we remember from years past when Bruce was Pop's Killer Rottweiler. Pop said in an interview during All-Star break, that the Spurs had been working in practice to implement what he terms "On Demand Stops." It's the defense that's needed when it's late in the game and the team needs to make that one critical stop. The question then becomes, which players are on the court when that On Demand Stop is needed?
Let's go with some absolute truths here:
Duncan-With all those ALL-NBA D team placements, is going to be on the court. While his lateral movement isn't what it used to be, his knowledge and length still make him formidable.
Ginobili-Is actually the Spurs best perimeter defender. Unfortunately, he has too much responsibility to be just a bulldog defender, so he has to choose his spots when he can play solid defense. He gambles a lot on steals but he gets his hands on so many balls that are within 6 feet and in, from him. He is a strong rebounder from the 2 as well.
Parker-Is what one would call, a good position defender. Before, you could say that Parker didn't really have anything to show for such good position defense, but now he does a solid job of staying in front of opposing point guards and now, he's matched his season average for steals at 1.2 SPG
McDyess-Knows his limitations and is a veteran bigman who has played in the biggest games on the biggest stage. The tip-in at Staples against the LAL was a real shining moment and showed that experience still counts for something.
George Hill-Undersized Combo Guard with long arms to help him compensate. Played great against Dallas last year at home but wasn't up to the task against Phoenix. Another year and he's upped the intensity.
and now for the darkhorse:
Tiago Splitter-Brazilian Center who has years of International Experience playing for both his National Team and Pro Ball in the Spanish league, which is generally considered to be the 2nd best league in the World.
So why did I use the term Rope-A-Dope?
It came to me during the last game of the season after Manu went down with the elbow injury which we know now to be limited and will not stop him from playing in this series. There was a stretch there where Tim Duncan and Tiago Splitter played TOGETHER. It was kind of eye-opening. For so long in Spursverse, there have been many a night of worry and anguish over the defensive shortcomings of Matt Bonner and DeJuan Blair. While each provide an important tool in Coach Gregg Popovich's Swiss Army Knife, it seemed as if those tools would go dull from time to time. That dullness is what Spurs fans would complain about.
Fast forward to Phoenix, the last game of the season. At the 10:04 mark of the 2nd quarter Tiago Splitter comes in to the game. Let's take a snapshot look of what he provided the Spurs defensively while playing the post alongside Matt Bonner.
1st D set: Fights Lopez for position, Lopez gets the tip, but it's a lucky bounce and he's in position for the rebound.
2nd D set: Vince Carter gets a outside J over Bonner who is slow on the rotation.
At the 8:45 mark is where it get's interesting...Tim Duncan comes in for Matt Bonner. It's a rare thing to see both Tim and Tiago on the court at the same time. Consider this late, the last game of the season. Manu is out, The Spurs are losing 34-52 to the Suns.
Here's a snapshot of what Tiago provided during his time on the court with Tim.
1st set Offense:Tim motions to Tiago, the ball goes to Danny Green and he runs a pick and roll on Tiago's side, the look isn't there and he holds the ball. Duncan flashes across the lane while Splitter backs down his man to the low block. Duncan could pass to Splitter here but opts to pass to Green for an open 3, which he misses. What needs to be pointed out is that, not one time in that set, did it look like Tim or Tiago looked confused or out of place, each had a defined role on that play set and they rolled through each option and spot with no delay. Could it be that this is Pop's ploy for the playoffs?
1st set D-Off the rebound the Suns run a fast break. An outlet pass to Aaron Brooks who attempts an alley-oop to Warrick over Danny Green. He misses and Duncan gets a rebound. That's a stop.
2nd set O-Duncan outlets to Hill on the break with Splitter and Jefferson filling the lanes.RJ takes right and breaks for the arc and Tiago goes middle, straight for the rim. Hill sees Tiago break clean from Lopez and easily finds him for a layup.
2nd set D-It's another fast break opp and RJ loses his man on the penetration and rotates late to Josh Childress who makes a challenged lay-up.
3rd Set O-Hill brings the ball up. A right side Triangle is set with Tim on the FT line extended and RJ to the side at the 3 point arc. Splitter pulls Warrick out to of the key to the left. Duncan holds his position on Lopez then breaks clean. Hill passes over the top to Duncan. 2 points on the layup and foul for the And 1.
3rd Set D-Tim misses the FT attempt. It's rebounded by Warrick who tips it to Lopez. An outlet pass to Carter, who passes back to Brooks the PG. Duncan and Splitter seems to be playing a soft zone where Duncan shades Lopez and Splitter is in the middle but hedges towards Tim but must be able to keep Warrick within gathering distance. Brooks dribbles right and sees Lopez make a dive cut to the lane but is cutoff by Splitter, so he passes to Warrick instead. Splitter makes it back to Warrick to contest a possible jumpshot so Warrick holds and then passes back to Brooks for a different set late in the clock. Brooks misses the shot and while Duncan is perfect position to get the rebound but it evades him. It falls to RJ whose tied up for Jump Ball. That's a stop.
4th set D-RJ loses the tip. Splitter now has Lopez on the block and Tim has Warrick on the FT line extended.The ball is tipped out to Carter who gives the ball to Brooks to reset the offense. Pick and Roll with Lopez is called. Splitter hedges out towards Brooks to stop penetration. Tim is within 6 feet and shading Warrick.And it's the same play as the 2nd set D, except this time...Duncan and Splitter have switched roles. Warrick decides to try to shoot the J but Tim challenges and Warrick is off-target. Tiago is battling Lopez for position down low and is called for the foul. It's a 50-50 call but refs give the ball to Phoenix.
5th Set D-Side out of Bounds. Tony Parker comes in for Danny Green. The matchups are Carter/Hill, Brooks/Parker, Jefferson/Childress, Splitter/Lopez on the Right side Low-Block, and Duncan/Warrick at the FT Line. Carter to Brooks.Brooks sets up a middle pick and roll with Warrick. Tim hedges Brooks who then bounce passes to Warrick. Tim is there to challenge but it's George Hill on the help side, who gets his hand on the ball and it goes out of bounds. Phoenix ball.
6th Set D-Baseline Out of bounds. Same matchups. It's imporant to know that Duncan and Spitter are in the middle of the low block area. Childress to Brooks. Brooks attempts an off balance jumper. Rebound Tim Duncan. Splitter establishes position and Lopez can't get to the ball. That's a Stop.
4th Set O-Duncan outlets to Parker on the left side on the break. Splitter fills middle and Hill fills left. The play continues. Carter is back 1st to defend at the FT line. Brooks is late to Parker with the ball on the right. Splitter is trailing middle with Lopez and Warrick just in front of him eyeing Tony. Tony makes a beautiful bounce pass to Hill who has a lane for a split-second but is closed off by Brooks and Lopez. Hill pulls his dribble and backs up. Splitter dives to the rim and then rotates to outside the left low block while Hill goes to FT line extended. Duncan is now coming into the play and gets the ball at high post and then sets up a screen on Lopez at left FT extended. Splitter breaks for the right side low block being defended by Warrick with a close hedge by Carter who is spying Parker at the right side sideline 3 point arc. It's now Duncan on the clearout against Lopez. He has the ball and attacks middle and shoots. Splitter moves back to the left to draw Warrick away and Tim gets an easy layup.
7th Set D-Inbounds Lopez to Brooks.Splitter runs down 1st to provide help defense while Hill matches up with Brooks. Jefferson is at the charge circle matching up with Childress. Parker is to the right at the sideline 3 matching up wtih Carter. Duncan is at the FT line shading Warrick and then moving to Lopez who was coming up after the inbounds. Spliter then matches up with Warrick. Brooks now sets a play. A double screen of Lopex and Childress free Carter from Parker. Vince gets a bounce pass on the cut to the rim but is challenged by Duncan at the rim and leaves it short. Splitter moves from the FT line to the charge circle and tips the ball to Hill. That's a stop.
5th Set O-Hill brings the ball up. It's RJ to the right. Tiago in the middle with Tim. Tim taps him and Tiago ups the pace to give Hill an option. Parker is at the left side opposite Jefferson. The cross matchups on the stop has Lopes guarding Hill at the top left arc. Childress/Jefferson right sideline 3, Brooks/Parker Warrick is under the FT line right shading towards Childress. Carter seems to be following Splitter who is now at the left side T. The ball gets passed to Duncan to the left, who now gets Lopez with Warrick moving to Hill. Tim passes to Tony to setup a side pick and roll. Tiago moves to the right side block.Tim cuts but Lopez hedges well enough to deny him the ball. Splitter drags Carter to the right side of the lane.Tim now tries a backdoor cut but Lopez' arms are still denying TP a good look. Tim runs through to the FT line and receives the pass. Parker goes low post and then out to the side to re-establish another side pick and roll. Tim passes back to TP and sets that screen. The ball comes to Tim, he sets to shoot and FOUL on Lopez. 2 Free Throws.
Phoenix brings in subs. Nash comes in, Frye comes in, Gortat comes in, and Grant Hill comes in. Out goes Brooks, Lopez, Warrick, and Childress.
Tim makes both FTs.
8th Set D-Nash brings up the ball. Matchups are Parker/Nash, Splitter/Frye, Duncan/Gortat, Geo Hill/Carter and Jefferson/Gra Hill. Pass goes into Gortatat the left FT line. Nash drags Parker to setup a screen on Hill as Carter makes the cut to the rim. Foul on George Hill.
Timeout. End of this Spurs set.at 5:49 mark, McDyess and Gary Neal is subbed in for Tiago Splitter and George Hill.
Let's think about this for a second.
All of that and the key result to point out is that the Spurs went on a 8-2 run from 8:45 mark to 5:49. Roughly 3 minutes.
The set was a mixed bag of players but the main constant was that Duncan and Splitter played the posts. Not once did they talk about where to go. Not once did they get in each other's way in a play set. On fastbreaks, Splitter knows that it's up to him to get deep position on the low-block so he runs hard to the spot while Tim trails to the FT line. They both defended hard, they matched up well knowing which player they needed to get to, even on crossmatchups from fast breaks.
Now imagine if you will a team that has a healthy Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. A well rested Tim Duncan and Antonio McDyess. George Hill, Richard Jefferson, and Gary Neal under the baptism of fire. And a Lone Stranger from Brazil who seemed like nothing but as I've shown you up there, has something to offer...7 feet of basketball know-how. It's raw but seemingly effective.
It's what we all crave...2 7 footers that Pop can employ against BIG teams.
Pop knows that he has the option to play fast like he did regular season but also, he can now play slow like he has in seasons past because he has 2 7 footers that know how to play with each other.
I think Pop is pulling a Rope-A-Dope y'all. If I'm right, I wanted to put it out there in black and white.