Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy

[MasterYoda]

http://www.channel3000.com/news/4577721/detail.htmlhttp://www.channel3000.com/news/4577721/detail.html

19-Year-Old Stepped On Stomach While Girl Punched Self

POSTED: 6:44 am CDT June 7, 2005

LUFKIN, Texas -- A 19-year-old East Texas man faces a life prison sentence for causing his teenage girlfriend to miscarry twins, even though she wanted to end the pregnancy.Gerardo Flores was accused of causing the miscarriage by stepping on his girlfriend's stomach. He was prosecuted under the state's new fetal protection law.

Erica Basoria acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy. But the 17-year-old can't be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.

The defense contended that Basoria punched herself while Flores was stepping on her, making it impossible to tell who killed the twins.

The jury reached a verdict after deliberating four hours. Because prosecutors declined to seek the death penalty in the case, Flores received the automatic life sentence.

Copyright 2005 by The Associated Press.


:(

[NeoConIV]

The defense contended that Basoria punched herself while Flores was stepping on her, making it impossible to tell who killed the twins.

The world we live in...God help us all

[mookie2001]

this is a fucked up story. but in general neocon

its almost as if we need a new world
and an order to that world...hmmmmmmmmmmm

[desflood]

this is a fucked up story. but in general neocon

its almost as if we need a new world
and an order to that world...hmmmmmmmmmmm
So many things wrong with that story, and this is all you can get out of it?

[NeoConIV]

not a new world order, the old worldview would be just fine right now...not this secularization gone rampant, which manifests itself in ways like this

[NeoConIV]

I'm trying to picture myself stepping on a wife/girlfriends pregnant belly, killing the babies inside...

How does one get to that point? What's the progression? What are their histories?

[travis2]

I don't understand it either...

[Spurminator]

I'm trying to figure out why this deserves a life sentence.

[Guru of Nothing]

not a new world order, the old worldview would be just fine right now...not this secularization gone rampant, which manifests itself in ways like this

Since you arre using this opportunity to blame and antagonize those with whom you disagree, at least the fetus did not die in vain.

[Spurminator]

secularization gone rampant

Did he not get a life sentence?

[NeoConIV]

not the result Spurm, what motivated them to beat their unborn to death...

[Extra Stout]

not a new world order, the old worldview would be just fine right now...not this secularization gone rampant, which manifests itself in ways like thisI don't think it's "secularization gone rampant"... barbarism has been around for a long, long time, even before there were godless liberals.

[Spurminator]

not the result Spurm, what motivated them to beat their unborn to death...

I can't say for sure, but based on instances I know of women having abortions, their motivations may have stemmed from pressures that were pretty much the opposite of secularism.

I would be interested in knowing how far along the pregnancy was, though.

[Useruser666]

I can't say for sure, but based on instances I know of women having abortions, their motivations may have stemmed from pressures that were pretty much the opposite of secularism.

I would be interested in knowing how far along the pregnancy was, though.

True. If it was even close to full term, why not just turn the baby over to the nearest fire station. I think a doctor needs to be present at an abortion.

[SWC Bonfire]

I'm trying to figure out why this deserves a life sentence.

It doesn't. It deserves a tall tree & a rope. If the children were born & they did this they would be given the death penalty or institutionalized.

How can people rationalize this kind of behavior? Ever?

[Spurminator]

Not rationalizing the behavior, but the sentence seems a bit harsh given that his only actual crimes may have been unethical medical treatment without a license and (possibly) performing an abortion past the legal term.

[NeoConIV]

unethical medical treatment without a license .
:lol Yeah, I guess you could characterize it that way...nice it up a little...

[travis2]

Not rationalizing the behavior, but the sentence seems a bit harsh given that his only actual crimes may have been unethical medical treatment without a license and (possibly) performing an abortion past the legal term.

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-028.gif

Ummmmmm...that is a meaningless statement...

[Spurminator]

Yeah, I guess you could characterize it that way...nice it up a little...

That's how I would imagine the law would characterize it. Even legal abortions aren't exactly pretty.

[travis2]

That's how I would imagine the law would characterize it. Even legal abortions aren't exactly pretty.

The reason it's meaningless is that it's known by something else at that point...infanticide.

[Spurminator]

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-028.gif

Ummmmmm...that is a meaningless statement...

How so? The law has limits on how late in a pregnancy a woman can legally have an abortion.

[NeoConIV]

That's how I would imagine the law would characterize it. Even legal abortions aren't exactly pretty.
Nope, they are vile and grotesque.

I think I would characterize it simply as homocide, but you knew that.

[travis2]

How so? The law has limits on how late in a pregnancy a woman can legally have an abortion.

I thought you were answering me. See my above post.

[The Ressurrected One]

I'm trying to figure out why this deserves a life sentence.
Because he killed a baby?

[Spurminator]

Well, sucks for him. If only he'd simply let the girl stick a coat hanger up herself or OD on pain killers, he'd be in better shape. As it is, it's a good thing he's gonna be put away for life, lest he be left to roam the streets and endanger babies everywhere.

This is a political message sentence, and I expect it to be overruled somewhere down the line.

[Medvedenko]

It all depends on how far along the pregnancy was....also if there was a choice available for these kids rather than resort to barbarism it might of helped....it's the world we live in. I believe abortion is legal in Texas is it not....there had to be a better choice....however I do believe that if this pregnancy was too far along than the punishment does indeed stand.

[MannyIsGod]

Outrageous.

[Jekka]

Well, sucks for him. If only he'd simply let the girl stick a coat hanger up herself or OD on pain killers, he'd be in better shape. As it is, it's a good thing he's gonna be put away for life, lest he be left to roam the streets and endanger babies everywhere.

This is a political message sentence, and I expect it to be overruled somewhere down the line.

That is so wrong - one of the main reasons abortion has remained legal in this country is so that women would not have to resort to those actions - many women have died trying to abort babies by those means - this story is tragic all around. I agree that it really is necessary to know how far along the pregnancy was, though. If it was far enough along, she should have gone ahead and had the babies - but if it was within the timeframe for a D&C, then it could be one of those cases where they couldn't get the money to do the abortion - they're pretty expensive, and really, most women needing to get abortions are women who are not financially secure. What the guy did was really fucking stupid, but a life sentence?

[MannyIsGod]

Unequal application of laws that are contradictory to begin with. This is idiocy plain and simple.

[Spurminator]

That is so wrong

You may have caught it, but I'm not sure, so just in case... that was sarcasm.

;)

[MannyIsGod]

He gets life, while she gets to go home while she played an equal part in this based on a technicality. If she has the right to an abortion, and she asked him for help, wasn't that what was going on?

Life in prison. And you guys complain about activist judges. Give me a fucking break.

[The Ressurrected One]

He gets life, while she gets to go home while she played an equal part in this based on a technicality. If she has the right to an abortion, and she asked him for help, wasn't that what was going on?

Life in prison. And you guys complain about activist judges. Give me a fucking break.
I agree. She should go to jail too.

[Useruser666]

He gets life, while she gets to go home while she played an equal part in this based on a technicality. If she has the right to an abortion, and she asked him for help, wasn't that what was going on?

Life in prison. And you guys complain about activist judges. Give me a fucking break.

I don't really agree with life in prison, but what was this guy thinking? What was the girl thinking? Punch yourself in the stomach, or stand on a pregnant woman's stomach to kill the fetus/baby? That's nuts.

[The Ressurrected One]

I don't really agree with life in prison, but what was this guy thinking? What was the girl thinking? Punch yourself in the stomach, or stand on a pregnant woman's stomach to kill the fetus/baby? That's nuts.
Hell, going to a doctor and having him suck and scrape a fetus from your womb is nuts.

[Useruser666]

Hell, going to a doctor and having him suck and scrape a fetus from your womb is nuts.

Those things aren't even remotely similar.

[The Ressurrected One]

Those things aren't even remotely similar.
Really? Ever witnessed an abortion?

[NeoConIV]

Those things aren't even remotely similar.
The means justify the end then? Killing is killing.

[Spurminator]

Then bring our troops home and throw them in prison.

[MannyIsGod]

This thread is a one way ticket to a headach.

[Bandit2981]

if you think this type of behavior is repulsive now, if conservatives get their wish and outlaw abortion this kind of story will be commonplace

[The Ressurrected One]

if you think this type of behavior is repulsive now, if conservatives get their wish and outlaw abortion this kind of story will be commonplace
That's bullshit... Pro-Abortion activists from the 70's have admitted they pulled the "thousands" of deaths, due to illegal abortions, out of their butts.

In 1972, prior to Roe v. Wade, there were 39 reported deaths (according to the CDC from Medical Examiner, Emergency Room, and Morgue Reports) resulting from illegal abortions and resulting complications.

Back alley - coathanger - abortions are a myth and probably only encourage the abberant behavior demonstrated by these teens.

Most illegal abortions were performed by doctors in "back office" abortions with available medical instruments of the time. The fact is, terminating a pregnancy, prematurely, is dangerous and risky. Legalizing abortion had less to do with the decline in maternal mortality than did medical advances.

Yes, Virginia, women still die from abortions and resulting complications...and, in numbers comparable to those prior to it being legalized.

[Useruser666]

Really? Ever witnessed an abortion?

Have you? Would that make a person an expert on the matter? Is what these two people did a good thing?

I guess that's no, no, and no?

[The Ressurrected One]

Have you?
Actually, I have. Several, in fact.


Would that make a person an expert on the matter?
It would certainly make a person sensitive to the realities of abortion as opposed to the romanticized visions of preserving the health of the mother, saving an unwanted child from a hard life, or the "neatness" of clinical abortion.


Is what these two people did a good thing?
duh.


I guess that's no, no, and no?
I think that makes it a yes, maybe, and no.

[The Ressurrected One]

One other thing.

The act of these two teenagers only demonstrates the fallacy of why pro-abortion proponents wanted it legalized in the first place...

To stop the hideous practice of self-administered abortions.

[NeoConIV]

One other thing.

The act of these two teenagers only demonstrates the fallacy of why pro-abortion proponents wanted it legalized in the first place...

To stop the hideous practice of self-administered abortions.
Touche. Fallacy indeed. Unless...


They couldn't afford the abortion(s) (twins). You know what that means, FREE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED, ON DEMAND ABORTIONS FOR ALL!!

WHEEEEE!!!!!!

[Spurminator]

Preventing back alley abortions is hardly the sole pro-choice argument for the legalization of abortion. It's not even the only one that's a fallacy.

[The Ressurrected One]

Preventing back alley abortions is hardly the sole pro-choice argument for the legalization of abortion. It's not even the only one that's a fallacy.
Oh, I agree. But, it was the principle reason at the time of Roe v Wade. And, in fact, that is precisely why the pro-abortion lobby grossly inflated -- hell, flat out lied about -- the numbers of deaths resulting from illegal, back alley abortions. They knew all the other arguments wouldn't fly without that arrow in the quiver.

[Useruser666]

Actually, I have. Several, in fact.


It would certainly make a person sensitive to the realities of abortion as opposed to the romanticized visions of preserving the health of the mother, saving an unwanted child from a hard life, or the "neatness" of clinical abortion.


duh.


I think that makes it a yes, maybe, and no.

I don't see how you could have been witness to several abortions first hand, unless you were a doctor performing them. But hey, say what you want. What would have been a better solution to this outcome? Maybe an abortion? Maybe a pregnency that was carried to full term, but that didn't seem to be the will of the parents in this case.

[mookie2001]

TRO thinks you shouldnt even be allowed to talk about abortions. its not a free speech issue its a morality issue!, what about peoples rights not to hear about abortions!

[SWC Bonfire]

Outrageous.

Amen to that.

Good thing that most people actually love their children...

[ChumpDumper]

FREE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIZED, ON DEMAND ABORTIONS FOR ALL!!
Only some.

Minature American flags for others.

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/scaryblog2/images/6-picture1.jpg

[Clandestino]

back in the day women used wire hangers! this sounds a tad more humane, but still fucked up...

[scott]

Newsflash: People are still fucked up.

[The Ressurrected One]

I don't see how you could have been witness to several abortions first hand, unless you were a doctor performing them.
So, only doctors are in the room?


But hey, say what you want. What would have been a better solution to this outcome?
Birth.


Maybe an abortion?
Isn't that what they did?


Maybe a pregnency that was carried to full term, but that didn't seem to be the will of the parents in this case.
then they shouldn't have played with their pants down.

[The Ressurrected One]

"TRO thinks you shouldnt even be allowed to talk about abortions."
Isn't that what we're doing?

"...its not a free speech issue its a morality issue!,"
No, it's a civil rights issue.

"...what about peoples rights not to hear about abortions!"
I'm sorry, were you imprisoned and forced to engage in this discussion? Tell us who did it, where you are, and we'll send the Police.

[The Ressurrected One]

back in the day women used wire hangers! this sounds a tad more humane, but still fucked up...
That's bullshit. There were about a many coathanger abortions as there were jumping on the tummy abortions prior to Roe v. Wade.

[Guru of Nothing]

Newsflash: People are still fucked up.

I'm a people!!

[scott]

I'm a people!!

I rest my case!

[Guru of Nothing]

I rest my case!

At least I'm a "people" willing to step up and pay the $250 entry fee into the FSP fantasy football league [/random_pimp_without_namecalling]

[Useruser666]

So, only doctors are in the room?


Birth.


Isn't that what they did?


then they shouldn't have played with their pants down.

So you were witness to several abortions for what reason?

"Birth" That's your opinion.

That's their right, and not something you should be deciding for them.

[The Ressurrected One]

So you were witness to several abortions for what reason?
200 Operating Room hours at a hospital/clinic in South Texas, during the 70's, while training to be a Paramedic. I also did a similar number of hours of Emergency Room duty.

I've seen more than just abortions but, I did see several abortions. What I didn't see were any "coathanger" or back-alley abortions come into the ER.

"Birth" That's your opinion.
Yeah, and? Isn't that what we're expressing in here? Besides, my "opinion" is informed by a whole lot more experiential information that your's, I would venture to say.

Have YOU ever seen an abortion?


That's their right, and not something you should be deciding for them.
Rights come with responsibilities. Actions have consequences.

[mookie2001]

Ive seen more abortions!

no no i have

bitch youve only seen 80, ive seen 250

yeah but mine were better abortions

you dont know shit about abortions

i was watching them when you were in diapers

[The Ressurrected One]

Ive seen more abortions!

no no i have

bitch youve only seen 80, ive seen 250

yeah but mine were better abortions

you dont know shit about abortions

i was watching them when you were in diapers
He asked the question...

[Useruser666]

200 Operating Room hours at a hospital/clinic in South Texas, during the 70's, while training to be a Paramedic. I also did a similar number of hours of Emergency Room duty.

I've seen more than just abortions but, I did see several abortions. What I didn't see were any "coathanger" or back-alley abortions come into the ER.

Yeah, and? Isn't that what we're expressing in here? Besides, my "opinion" is informed by a whole lot more experiential information that your's, I would venture to say.

Have YOU ever seen an abortion?


Rights come with responsibilities. Actions have consequences.


As I said earlier, seeing an abortion doesn't give anyone any more credability on discussing other peoples' rights. If it's not YOUR body, it's not of YOUR concern. I do my part in this world by not creating any unwanted babies. I don't feel the need to tell others how to run their lives. I want a society that can provide the information and options to people so they don't make mistakes in their lives, but as long as they don't break the law, it's not anyone else's business.

[The Ressurrected One]

As I said earlier, seeing an abortion doesn't give anyone any more credability on discussing other peoples' rights.
What about the babies' rights?

If it's not YOUR body, it's not of YOUR concern.
What about the babies' bodies?

I do my part in this world by not creating any unwanted babies. I don't feel the need to tell others how to run their lives.
Could I rephrase that to, "I do my part in this world by not killing innocent people. I don't feel the need to tell others..."


I want a society that can provide the information and options to people so they don't make mistakes in their lives, but as long as they don't break the law, it's not anyone else's business.
I guess the slaves are pretty lucky you weren't around when slavery was legal. And, then there were those pesky women demanding the right to vote...

Yeah, don't want to get involved when things are "legal."

[Useruser666]

What about the babies' rights?

What about the babies' bodies?

Could I rephrase that to, "I do my part in this world by not killing innocent people. I don't feel the need to tell others..."


I guess the slaves are pretty lucky you weren't around when slavery was legal. And, then there were those pesky women demanding the right to vote...

Yeah, don't want to get involved when things are "legal."

Sorry, but until birth there is no baby. I know that's a grey subject area.

Unless you are the father, or carrying the pregnancy yourself, you don't have any say in what happens.

Your slavery analogy cracks me up. Slavery is not even close to being a related issue. Should a woman who is raped be forced to carry the baby to full term? Are you against all abortions, or can you let your morals rest for "special" circumstances?

[The Ressurrected One]

Sorry, but until birth there is no baby. I know that's a grey subject area.
If it's a "grey subject area," why not err on the side of life? Why not allow abortion up to the point of birth? When is that? When the baby crowns? After head emerges? After the cord is cut?

How come we've drawn arbitrary line of moral certitude at, what is it now, 23 weeks? What of the fetus that is 22 weeks and 6 days? What about the uncertainty in calculating gestational age?

Why is a child only a life after birth?

Unless you are the father, or carrying the pregnancy yourself, you don't have any say in what happens.
Apparently, not even fathers have a say...

And, I think someone needs to speak for the children.


Your slavery analogy cracks me up. Slavery is not even close to being a related issue.
It is when the "abortion-is-legal-so-shut-up" canard is thrown out.

Should a woman who is raped be forced to carry the baby to full term? Are you against all abortions, or can you let your morals rest for "special" circumstances?
In every abortion thread, in which I've participated, I've always allowed that compassion is called for in duress abortions. I cannot fathom having to witness my daughter struggling with that decision.

But, yes, I'm opposed to all abortions; however, if we were just arguing over the less than 1% of all abortions that result from rape, incest, in-utero diagnosis of terminal illness or for the LIFE (not just health) of the Mother, then I doubt you and I would be that far apart...or even having this discussion

That's not the case. Greater than 99% of all abortions are elective or convenience abortions, purely as a choice to the mother. That is unconscienable...

More than a million unborn children every year are killed because they are simply inconvenient to persons who conceived them.

[Useruser666]

If it's a "grey subject area," why not err on the side of life? Why not allow abortion up to the point of birth? When is that? When the baby crowns? After head emerges? After the cord is cut?

How come we've drawn arbitrary line of moral certitude at, what is it now, 23 weeks? What of the fetus that is 22 weeks and 6 days? What about the uncertainty in calculating gestational age?

Why is a child only a life after birth?

Apparently, not even fathers have a say...

And, I think someone needs to speak for the children.


It is when the "abortion-is-legal-so-shut-up" canard is thrown out.

In every abortion thread, in which I've participated, I've always allowed that compassion is called for in duress abortions. I cannot fathom having to witness my daughter struggling with that decision.

But, yes, I'm opposed to all abortions; however, if we were just arguing over the less than 1% of all abortions that result from rape, incest, in-utero diagnosis of terminal illness or for the LIFE (not just health) of the Mother, then I doubt you and I would be that far apart...or even having this discussion

That's not the case. Greater than 99% of all abortions are elective or convenience abortions, purely as a choice to the mother. That is unconscienable...

More than a million unborn children every year are killed because they are simply inconvenient to persons who conceived them.

And so can you guaranty that all of those unwanted children will be cared for? I think it's in everyone's best interest that better alternatives are given to people, but not that we force our will upon them.

[The Ressurrected One]

And so can you guaranty that all of those unwanted children will be cared for?
I can guarantee they'll have a better chance at life than if you scrape them from the womb before they're born.

I think it's in everyone's best interest that better alternatives are given to people, but not that we force our will upon them.
What about God's will? And, what about the child's right to life? Why does he not have one?

[Useruser666]

I can guarantee they'll have a better chance at life than if you scrape them from the womb before they're born.

What about God's will? And, what about the child's right to life? Why does he not have one?

Sorry, but since not everyone believes in God, his will doesn't mean anything here. Since the child hasn't been born yet, then they have no rights as human beings. I'm sorry if you don't agree to that, but it seems that is the way it is in this world. The great thing is though, you have as much control over your own body as you want. Isn't that terrific?

[The Ressurrected One]

Sorry, but since not everyone believes in God, his will doesn't mean anything here.
I was specifically alluding to all the forum readers whom I know believe in God and yet still condone abortion. But, to be fair, you're right and maybe God's will shouldn't play into legal distinctions.

Since the child hasn't been born yet, then they have no rights as human beings. I'm sorry if you don't agree to that, but it seems that is the way it is in this world.
Until it's changed. And change doesn't occur without effort.

The great thing is though, you have as much control over your own body as you want. Isn't that terrific?
Let me ask you this; do you believe any abortion, up to the moment of birth should be left to the choice of the mother?

I just want to clarify that point before I proceed.

[Gatita]

Back alley - coathanger - abortions are a myth and probably only encourage the abberant behavior demonstrated by these teens.


Myth my ass. I've heard those stories from women who had to resort to those extremes.

[The Ressurrected One]

Myth my ass. I've heard those stories from women who had to resort to those extremes.
What? Were you a pimp in the 60's?

[SpursWoman]

How fortunate you are, O'Ressurrected One, to not have the threat of a bunch of woman, who will never physically experience everything you can, to have the right to govern what must happen or not happen with your own body.

[The Ressurrected One]

How fortunate you are, O'Ressurrected One, to not have the threat of a bunch of woman, who will never physically experience everything you can, to have the right to govern what must happen or not happen with your own body.
What about the body inside the woman? Does that person have absolutely no rights?

I'm asking very simple questions and no one will tell me when the fetus becomes a person or why the fetal age at which it can be killed keeps getting moved around almost arbitrarily.

Oh, and you act as though it's only men opposed to abortion or wanting laws restricting the practice. Sorry, that doesn't fly...

[JoeChalupa]

Guilty.

[Useruser666]

Here's a simple idea. No one should have any control over another's body. And Im sorry, but legally a fetus is not a person. I think that line may be negotiable, but right now it is clear.

[desflood]

Obviously they are legally considered people, or he wouldn't be in prison.

[Dre_7]

Saying a fetus is not a person is just plain blindness!

[Spurminator]

Whether a fetus is a person or not is irrelevant, in my opinion, and I think it's a flaw in the pro-choice argument.

The rights of the mother to her body and the effects therein trump the rights of the fetus to live off of the mother.

[desflood]

I read somewhere once that humans instinctively have contempt for whatever we have too much of. Obviously, that includes children.

[mookie2001]

i wouldnt even call a baby a person, which it is, id call it a baby

[Useruser666]

I wasn't defining a fetus as not being a human being to be cold, just as a matter of law. I don't think the two are in jail for killing the baby.

[Dre_7]

Whether a fetus is a person or not is irrelevant, in my opinion, and I think it's a flaw in the pro-choice argument.

The rights of the mother to her body and the effects therein trump the rights of the fetus to live off of the mother.

Thats where people are wrong, its not about rights, its about obligations!

[desflood]

This'll clear some of it up:

Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy
19-Year-Old Stepped On Stomach While Girl Punched Self

POSTED: 7:44 am EDT June 7, 2005

LUFKIN, Texas -- A 19-year-old accused of causing his teenage girlfriend to miscarry two fetuses by stepping on her stomach was convicted Monday of two counts of murder.
Gerardo Flores received an automatic life sentence because prosecutors did not seek the death penalty, which was available under the state's 2003 fetus protection law.


Erica Basoria, 17, acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy; she could not be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.

The defense contended that Basoria punched herself while Flores was stepping on her, making it impossible to tell who caused the miscarriage.

Basoria told authorities that, after about four months of pregnancy, she regretted not getting an abortion and started jogging and hitting herself to induce a miscarriage. When her efforts failed, she said she asked her boyfriend to help.

Flores did not testify, but earlier told police that he stepped on Basoria's stomach several times during the week before she miscarried.

Prosecutor Art Bauereiss said most of Basoria's family was pleased with the jury's decision. But Basoria, who sobbed as she left the Angelina County Courthouse, had stood by Flores.

"It's just tragedy all around," said Flores' attorney, Ryan Deaton.

Texas law defines an embryo or fetus as an "individual" and allows criminal prosecution or civil action for a preventable injury or death of a fetus. The law exempts health care providers who perform a legal medical procedure, such as an abortion.

[The Ressurrected One]

Here's a simple idea. No one should have any control over another's body. And Im sorry, but legally a fetus is not a person. I think that line may be negotiable, but right now it is clear.
Clear? Really? Then it must be legal to abort a fetus right up until it takes its first breath, right?

[Spurminator]

Thats where people are wrong, its not about rights, its about obligations!

And therein lies the neverending difference of opinion. Some believe it should be a legal obligation to carry a child through to birth, some believe it should only be a moral obligation, and some don't care either way.

[Spurminator]

This'll clear some of it up:

Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy
19-Year-Old Stepped On Stomach While Girl Punched Self

POSTED: 7:44 am EDT June 7, 2005

LUFKIN, Texas -- A 19-year-old accused of causing his teenage girlfriend to miscarry two fetuses by stepping on her stomach was convicted Monday of two counts of murder.
Gerardo Flores received an automatic life sentence because prosecutors did not seek the death penalty, which was available under the state's 2003 fetus protection law.


Erica Basoria, 17, acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy; she could not be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.

The defense contended that Basoria punched herself while Flores was stepping on her, making it impossible to tell who caused the miscarriage.

Basoria told authorities that, after about four months of pregnancy, she regretted not getting an abortion and started jogging and hitting herself to induce a miscarriage. When her efforts failed, she said she asked her boyfriend to help.

Flores did not testify, but earlier told police that he stepped on Basoria's stomach several times during the week before she miscarried.

Prosecutor Art Bauereiss said most of Basoria's family was pleased with the jury's decision. But Basoria, who sobbed as she left the Angelina County Courthouse, had stood by Flores.

"It's just tragedy all around," said Flores' attorney, Ryan Deaton.

Texas law defines an embryo or fetus as an "individual" and allows criminal prosecution or civil action for a preventable injury or death of a fetus. The law exempts health care providers who perform a legal medical procedure, such as an abortion.

So, as I said before, basically his only crime was not having a license to perform a legal abortion. And now he's in prison for life. If only he were a doctor, he wouldn't be a murderer.

Texas law is fucked up. What's new?

[The Ressurrected One]

Texas law defines an embryo or fetus as an "individual" and allows criminal prosecution or civil action for a preventable injury or death of a fetus. The law exempts health care providers who perform a legal medical procedure, such as an abortion.
That's interesting, it doesn't appear the law exempts mothers who seek out a health care provider to perform an abortion.

Hey Manny, if the law doesn't specifically exempt the mother -- just the abortionist -- isn't she held in the same category as the boyfriend who stomped on her stomach?

I mean, just because you use a legal method to inflict, "...a preventable injury or death of a fetus," doesn't relieve you of the responsibility for that death unless, of course, you're the health care provider performing the method leading to, "...a preventable injury or death of a fetus."

See how tortured we have to be with the law in order to protect the right to choose to kill your unborn child?

[The Ressurrected One]

And therein lies the neverending difference of opinion. Some believe it should be a legal obligation to carry a child through to birth, some believe it should only be a moral obligation, and some don't care either way.
And then, some say, once conceived, an unborn child is entitled to the same rights as all other humans.

If you didn't want to create a human don't have sex.

[Dre_7]

If you didn't want to create a human don't have sex.

I dont agree w/ you that much TRO, but this time I do. You hear i stuff like this told to men all the time: "Oh, youre man enough to lie down and make a baby, but youre not man enough to take care of one?"
It works both ways. If you are not a victum of rape or incest, you have an obligation to make sure your child is takin care of! Whether its raising and taking care of the child, or putting the child up for adoption. If you have consensual sex you have to be able to face whatever comes out of it, whether youre a man or woman! Plain and simple. If ya dont want a garden, dont plant a seed!

[Spurminator]

And then, some say, once conceived, an unborn child is entitled to the same rights as all other humans.

What normal human right closely resembles this unborn child's need to live inside of a woman for 9 months?

[Spurminator]

You guys are back to arguing the morality of the issue.

Stick to legality. Being irresponsible is not against the law.

What legal justification is there to give this person a life sentence?

[Dre_7]

What legal justification is there to give this person a life sentence?

Um he murdered someone.

[The Ressurrected One]

What normal human right closely resembles this unborn child's need to live inside of a woman for 9 months?
The Right to Life?

That pesky 5th amendment...


"No person shall be...deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law..."

So, I ask you, what is the difference between a fetus legally scraped from the womb and one that happens to find itself in the path of a robber's bullet? Why is the death of one legal and the other murder? There is nothing different about the victim's, they are both feti.

[Spurminator]

The Right to Life?

So that covers everything then? So if I need a kidney transplant to live, and I find a match, that person is obligated by law to provide his or her kidney so I can live?

The Right to Live only applies to those who can live on their own. Otherwise no one would starve to death and health care would be free.


So, I ask you, what is the difference between a fetus legally scraped from the womb and one that happens to find itself in the path of a robber's bullet? Why is the death of one legal and the other murder?

I'm not going to argue in favor of the precedent that killing a pregnant woman is a double homicide, because I don't agree with that either.

[Useruser666]

I think Spurm already covered the differences of beliefs quite well. I just don't feel it's any of my concern what choices a woman makes with her body. The fetus is part of her body until it can survive on it's own, and right now that's only outside the womb.

[Spurminator]

Um he murdered someone.

:bang

I'll try again... What legal justification is there to give this person a life sentence, when the only real difference between him and an abortion doctor is that he does not have a license to perform abortions?

[The Ressurrected One]

:bang

I'll try again... What legal justification is there to give this person a life sentence, when the only real difference between him and an abortion doctor is that he does not have a license to perform abortions?

There is no difference...they're both homicides. One just does it legally...

And, I ask again, given the last few posts, does a woman have the right to choose to kill her unborn child up to the day it delivers?

[Dre_7]

The Right to Live only applies to those who can live on their own.

So if I killed a 7 month old I wouldnt get in trouble?

[Useruser666]

So if I killed a 7 month old I wouldnt get in trouble?

If a pregnant mother dies, the fetus/baby/child inside her will die unless artificially removed. Once a child is born, they can live on their own without the mother. They can receive care from others and survive without the mother. That is the basic difference, like it or not.

I don't really suport abortions as an easy way out of being a responsible adult. But it is a person's right to choose to what they want to do with their own body. There is no way to really get around that point. It's unfortunate that people can't take the proper precautions ahead of time to prevent such drastic steps to be taken. But that is life, and in turn, death.

[Dre_7]

If a pregnant mother dies, the fetus/baby/child inside her will die unless artificially removed. Once a child is born, they can live on their own without the mother. They can receive care from others and survive without the mother. That is the basic difference, like it or not.

That is foolish. A fetus is still alive. Both a fetus and a baby depend on other people to survive. If a baby is abondoned, society (foster care or whatever) is obligated to let him/her live. They cant just throw the baby away. Likewise, a mother and father that choose to have sex are obligated to let the baby live if she gets pregnant.


I don't really suport abortions as an easy way out of being a responsible adult. But it is a person's right to choose to what they want to do with their own body. There is no way to really get around that point. It's unfortunate that people can't take the proper precautions ahead of time to prevent such drastic steps to be taken. But that is life, and in turn, death.

I dont understand the whole, "its my body, my right to choose" thing. I am all for freedom of choice. I believe every woman, and every man has the right to choose not to have a baby if they dont want to. No, that doesnt mean abortion. That means, not conceiving a child if they dont want one. Anyone that has consensual sex and gets pregnant, gives up their right of choice, cuz they already made the choice. Abortion as birth control is evil. Unless one is a victum of rape or incest, they should not consider abortion if they get pregnant!

Once someone exercises their freedom of choice and chooses to have sex, they are then obligated to deal with what even happens because of that choice. That is life.

"If you dont want a garden, dont plant a seed." Simple as that

[SWC Bonfire]

A fetus that is wanted is talked to, cared for, loved and nourished. Sounds pretty silly for an inanimate object, doesn't it? Or is it like a dog, a living creature that is loved but not human?

A fetus that is unloved is just tissue. It would seem that the rationalization of abortion has only to do with whether the fetus is loved or not - not whether a child is viable out of the womb, can feel pain, or any other scientific criteria, or has a mind of its own.