Pau Gasol is a maggot

[DazedAndConfused]

That is all

[midnightpulp]

Your lover Kobe is making his case for maggot status as well.

[Giuseppe]

This was supposed to be Gasol's Playoff.

Uh, uh.

[namlook]

Pau will be back.

[midnightpulp]

Yet everyone gives me shit for not overrating these assholes.

Kobe included.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe earned it. He started at the bottom, climbed all the way to the top, fell back down to the bottom, and is back on top again. No one carried him, he pushed everyone out of his way.

Yep, and before they knew it:::he'd gotten that 5th.

And you know what else. He knew it. He'd cut the road.

They can get on now to James in Florida. Ain't as much money as Kobe in California, but, it's all they got now.

Chop, chop.

[midnightpulp]

Kobe earned it. He started at the bottom, climbed all the way to the top, fell back down to the bottom, and is back on top again. No one carried him, he pushed everyone out of his way.

'Cept Shaq from the years of '00 to '02.

[midnightpulp]

Shaq was dead weight. Kobe cut his ass. He's been trying to find himself since.

Dead weight that averaged some the best post season numbers in league history, while Kobe was struggling to break 43% shooting.

And Shaq's ghost still looms. The trade for him enabled the Lakers to get Lamar Odom and Caron Butler, the latter of whom was traded to the Wizards for Kwame Brown, who was the key piece in the hijacking of Gasol.

If Shaq never had a bug up his to make shitty movies and rap music (which we all know was the reason he left Orlando), LA during the 2000s doesn't do much better than they did in the 90s.

[Giuseppe]

Shaq was dead weight. Kobe cut his ass. He's been trying to find himself since.

Ran him right off. Turned out he was right as he rang twice as much as Daddy has since they parted.

Kobe Bryant

[Killakobe81]

That is all

I think you have a typo in the thread title you typed "m" where you meant "f" ...

You need Kobe to spell-check your threads ... he is familiar with the proper use and spelling of the word you seek ...

[LnGrrrR]

I think you have a typo in the thread title you typed "m" where you meant "f" ...

You need Kobe to spell-check your threads ... he is familiar with the proper use and spelling of the word you seek ...

:lol :tu

Honestly, from the small parts of the game I saw, Gasol looked terrified to back anyone down. Even KG isn't that afraid. (And KG usually defers 9/10 in the clutch to someone else.)

[Giuseppe]

:lol :tu

Honestly, from the small parts of the game I saw, Gasol looked terrified to back anyone down. Even KG isn't that afraid. (And KG usually defers 9/10 in the clutch to someone else.)

Now there's blood in the water....Gasol's. Perkins & Amare jackassed preemptively about him to influence his mental state. & it's worked.

After Paul quit on & off over a 82 game span, he got his back up (him and his tights Jack) before Game 1 and decided to not quit. Well, at least for a while. Shit, if that little pissant no account can transcend his pile of shit, Gasol should be able to follow suit.

C'mon, Pau, chop, chop.

[picc84]

I don't get whats wrong with him. Maybe its the cut under his eye, maybe its the sand in his vag, but he doesn't want to do anything. That spinning fadeaway away from Gray 13 feet from the basket was the smoking gun. We're gonna have to win this series without him.

[Giuseppe]

I don't get whats wrong with him. Maybe its the cut under his eye, maybe its the sand in his vag, but he doesn't want to do anything. That spinning fadeaway away from Gray 13 feet from the basket was the smoking gun. We're gonna have to win this series without him.

Maybe the 2 he's won is enough for him. He started declining after the '09 Finals.

& really needed him to carry Kobe now. That was the ideal. Gone, poof!

A f'in nightmare.

[picc84]

This really was his chance to turn the team into his, with Bryant looking every bit of his 30-some years. He don't want it. Some just aint wired like that.

[jag]

You can always tell Laker fans from Kobe fans.

Laker fans miss the Shaq days

[TE]

You can always tell Laker fans from Kobe fans.

Laker fans miss the Shaq days



Yeah. . . .

[Kyle Orton]

Shaq was dead weight. Kobe cut his ass. He's been trying to find himself since.

It's funny how Lakers fans seriously believe this stuff.

[Axe Murderer]

That is all

http://www.truthaboutit.net/pictures/Jeff-Foster.jpg

http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/graphics/articles/reports/2006/yamaha_drums.jpg

[Kyle Orton]

http://jasonfeldman.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/dazed-wallpaper-dazed-and-confused-7939906-1024-768.jpg

[JamStone]

It's funny how Lakers fans seriously believe this stuff.

It can get ridiculous, but I view it as a counter balance to Kobe hate, whether they really believe it or not. In order to maintain equilibrium in the basketball universe, sometimes opposing sides must go the extreme end of each polar side. Kobe fanboi pretty much discredits Shaq. Kobe hater says Kobe had next to nothing to do with those first three titles. It's an ongoing struggle to keep the balance. Ying. Yang. And so it goes...

[Veterinarian]

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=819758442155&id=d31b8b46380e5703095337be2fc6d0f2&url=http%3a%2f%2fupload.wikimedia.org%2fwikipedia% 2fcommons%2fd%2fd0%2fStrawberry_jam_on_a_dish.JPG

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=820214440826&id=fe654f28833e233adf535bbe59fd054a&url=http%3a%2f%2fupload.wikimedia.org%2fwikipedia% 2fcommons%2f2%2f2e%2fCentre_Stone_Jersey.jpg

[Kyle Orton]

Kobe haters say Kobe was a sidekick from 2000-2002, that's not nearly as much reaching as the Kobe fans who say stuff like "Shaq was deadweight"

My favorite one is Lakerfan saying Phil begged Kobe to come back. Kobe just led LA to the lottery and they had absolutely nothing at head coach. Phil was getting courted by multiple teams about coming out of retirement and already had 9 championships with a HOF coaching career under his belt. Somehow though, he begged Kobe if he could comeback to the Lakers, and in the process got a salary higher than any other team was offering. It must have took a lot of convincing for Kobe to agree with letting Frank Hamblen go and bringing Phil Jackson back.

[JamStone]

Shrugs... different perspectives. You see it as Kobe being called a "sidekick." I've seen it go more extreme than that, to the point of all but total discrediting.

Kobe is the only guy people will label "sidekick" and then not credit with having won titles almost completely, just because there was another dominant player is on the team. No fan says Duncan only won 3 titles since Tony Parker won the 2007 Finals MVP. No one discredits Magic for championship runs where Kareem or Worthy put up great numbers. But there are some Kobe haters that give Kobe credit for only 2 titles, heck some that say only 1 based on the logic that Pau was more of the reason last season.

Don't act like Kobe fans are the only ones that go to extreme. The Kobe haters are fully capable of claiming the outrageous.

[Booharv]

I don't think thats true Jamstone. If you look at players like Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, and occasionally Oscar Robertson (in some old books I read) I've heard them discredited/mentioned as players who could only win as a sidekick.

[picc84]

It's funny how Lakers fans seriously believe this stuff.

Mostly just shit-talking tbh. This is spurstalk, after all.

[21_Blessings]

Mostly just shit-talking tbh. This is spurstalk, after all.

I've seen two "laker fans" say that. luva and Cub.

Tell us how you really feel DoK.

[Kyle Orton]

Shrugs... different perspectives. You see it as Kobe being called a "sidekick." I've seen it go more extreme than that, to the point of all but total discrediting. I've seen them get discredited when Kobe is being compared to MJ.


Kobe is the only guy people will label "sidekick" and then not credit with having won titles almost completely Kobe is also the only guy who can receive less MVP votes than a teammate during a 3peat while said teammate wins finals MVP all 3 years, yet have fans of the team refer to him as the best player on that team.


No fan says Duncan only won 3 titles since Tony Parker won the 2007 Finals MVP. 1) That's because Duncan was far and away the best player on the 2007 Spurs
2) I've heard plenty of Duncan haters use the argument that the 2007 Spurs were Parker's team.
No one discredits Magic for championship runs where Kareem or Worthy put up great numbers. Do you ever see Magic's 5 rings get compared to Jordan's 6 rings? No one tries to discredit Magic as a 5 time NBA champion because no one tries to over-glorify him.


But there are some Kobe haters that give Kobe credit for only 2 titles, heck some that say only 1 based on the logic that Pau was more of the reason last season. How much credit would Lakers fans give Scottie Pippen for his 6 titles if there were a bunch of people saying Scottie > Kobe because 6 > 5? I'm willing to bet all of my internal organs that Lakerfan would use the sidekick argument, and for good reason. Winning championships as the #2 option or 1B option shouldn't add to a legacy as much as winning championships as the undisputed #1 option like Kobe has been on the last 2 teams and Pippen has never been.

[Kyle Orton]

I've seen two "laker fans" say that. luva and Cub.

Tell us how you really feel DoK.

If that's something Cul made up (like the Chris Webber fuck your mother story) then my bad.

[Kyle Orton]

I also find it funny lakaluva thinks his opinions on Kobe should be taken seriously
Id take Deng and Gordon for Kobe in a heartbeat. Problem is Bulls might not.

[JamStone]

I don't think thats true Jamstone. If you look at players like Clyde Drexler, Scottie Pippen, and occasionally Oscar Robertson (in some old books I read) I've heard them discredited/mentioned as players who could only win as a sidekick.

I should have been more specific. I'm talking about among other all time greats, especially those who won multiple titles. With Drexler, he was obviously a sidekick because he joined a team that already had won the title the year before. And with Scottie, the distinction between top dog and everyone else was clear on those Bulls teams. Oscar only won one title and it was when he was older and on the decline and clearly Kareem's second banana. People don't discredit Magic or Kareem or Bird or Duncan for any of their titles. Shaq might be the only other won for his 2006 title.

I've talked about this before when it comes to Kobe on those threepeat Laker teams. After the first title, Kobe was just as much the first option as Shaq was. In the second and third title runs, Kobe took more shot attempts than Shaq in both the regular season and the playoffs. Very close to equal shot distribution between the two. It was a 1A and 1B situation if ever there was. Shaq was more dominant, more efficient. But Kobe was also the main playmaker and the closer. Kind of offsets each other. Basically the same amount of shots and touches, virtually the same scoring in those second and third championship runs. Yet some people want to give Kobe very little credit for those titles. And then those same people will turn around and still discredit him for the last two giving more credit to Gasol.

There is no other all time great that gets discredited that way (again except Shaq in 2006), even though the production of a "go to" guy is there. In the second and third seasons of that threepeat, Kobe was putting up around 27/6/5. Those aren't sidekick numbers.

But like I said, it's about keeping a balance between the two. Kobe haters and Kobe fans alike going to extremes to make their arguments.

[JamStone]

I've seen them get discredited when Kobe is being compared to MJ.

Kobe is also the only guy who can receive less MVP votes than a teammate during a 3peat while said teammate wins finals MVP all 3 years, yet have fans of the team refer to him as the best player on that team.

1) That's because Duncan was far and away the best player on the 2007 Spurs
2) I've heard plenty of Duncan haters use the argument that the 2007 Spurs were Parker's team. Do you ever see Magic's 5 rings get compared to Jordan's 6 rings? No one tries to discredit Magic as a 5 time NBA champion because no one tries to over-glorify him.

How much credit would Lakers fans give Scottie Pippen for his 6 titles if there were a bunch of people saying Scottie > Kobe because 6 > 5? I'm willing to bet all of my internal organs that Lakerfan would use the sidekick argument, and for good reason. Winning championships as the #2 option or 1B option shouldn't add to a legacy as much as winning championships as the undisputed #1 option like Kobe has been on the last 2 teams and Pippen has never been.

I think you're just agreeing with me.

Kobe haters say stupid and extreme shit in response to Kobe fans saying stupid and extreme shit. And when Kobe fans see the response, it makes them continue saying stupid and extreme shit.

That was my point about each side going to extremes to keep the balance of the basketball universe.

[Giuseppe]

If that's something Cul made up (like the Chris Webber fuck your mother story) then my bad.

No. I freely admit saying it. I thought we'd skimmed the cream off Kobe. He wanted that 6/120 deal and I wanted somebody else to buy it.

I was wrong.

[Neo.]

I think the real question is, who is more obnoxious... Kobe lovers or Kobe haters?

Both are pretty fucking awful. But I think Kobe lovers take the cake, because if they hadn't attempted to overglorify him from the get go, Kobe haters wouldn't be nearly as extreme as they are.

However to add to it, MJ lovers is what made Kobe lovers even more obnoxious. It was ridiculous for the Kobe lovers to annoint him as the guy who will surpass MJ in greatness, but then MJ lovers began overstating MJ's greatness with all the nonsense like "if MJ and Kobe played one on one, MJ would win 5000000 to -14!!!!!!!!!!!! MJ MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" , when truth is, MJ is greater, but is not heads and tails a better basketball player than Kobe, they are actually fairly comparable as individual players. But this led to Kobe lovers being even more intent on finding ridiculous ways to compare Kobe to MJ.

And its hilarious because the way MJ lovers would bash so much on Kobe lovers, now Kobe lovers feel the need to bash on someone the same way MJ lovers bashed on them, so they decide that they need to just start hating Lebron just for the sake of it, although Lebron lovers have never been as ridiculously obnoxious as Kobe lovers.

Point is... Kobe lovers are faggots.

[Neo.]

It was a 1A and 1B situation if ever there was. Shaq was more dominant, more efficient. But Kobe was also the main playmaker and the closer. Kind of offsets each other.

Truth right here.

They were equal, and balanced each other out very well, which is why they SHOULD have been the greatest duo ever. Unfortunately for them, they were too stupid, childish, and egotistical to allow that to happen. Dumbasses.

[Kyle Orton]

No. I freely admit saying it. I thought we'd skimmed the cream off Kobe. He wanted that 6/120 deal and I wanted somebody else to buy it.

I was wrong.

I was referring to you saying Phil begged Kobe to come back.

[Giuseppe]

My favorite one is Lakerfan saying Phil begged Kobe to come back.

No. I said Jackson begged Kobe to let him (Jackson) return. And that Kobe, being gracious & wise let the man return. Kobe didn't punish him. Kobe didn't advertise it.

He didn't write a book about it. He just signed off on it.

[Giuseppe]

I was referring to you saying Phil begged Kobe to come back.

I never said that. See above.

[Kyle Orton]

No. I said Jackson begged Kobe to let him (Jackson) return.

Which is a giant crock of shit that makes absolutely no logical sense.

[Kyle Orton]

No. I said Jackson begged Kobe to let him (Jackson) return.


I was referring to you saying Phil begged Kobe to come back.

Um, these two basically say the same thing. Maybe I worded it poorly, but I was referring to you saying Jackson begged Kobe to let (Jackson) return to the Lakers.

[21_Blessings]

I think the real question is, who is more obnoxious... Kobe lovers or Kobe haters?

Both are pretty fucking awful. But I think Kobe lovers take the cake, because if they hadn't attempted to overglorify him from the get go, Kobe haters wouldn't be nearly as extreme as they are.

However to add to it, MJ lovers is what made Kobe lovers even more obnoxious. It was ridiculous for the Kobe lovers to annoint him as the guy who will surpass MJ in greatness, but then MJ lovers began overstating MJ's greatness with all the nonsense like "if MJ and Kobe played one on one, MJ would win 5000000 to -14!!!!!!!!!!!! MJ MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" , when truth is, MJ is greater, but is not heads and tails a better basketball player than Kobe, they are actually fairly comparable as individual players. But this led to Kobe lovers being even more intent on finding ridiculous ways to compare Kobe to MJ.

And its hilarious because the way MJ lovers would bash so much on Kobe lovers, now Kobe lovers feel the need to bash on someone the same way MJ lovers bashed on them, so they decide that they need to just start hating Lebron just for the sake of it, although Lebron lovers have never been as ridiculously obnoxious as Kobe lovers.

Point is... Kobe lovers are faggots.

Look how angry and emotional you're getting. Typical insecure Lebron dick sucker. :lol

Hating on an entitled, ringless, dancing douche with a CHOSEN ONE tattoo, that speaks seriously in third person while throwing chalk in your face has nothing to do Kobe or MJ. Stop deluding yourself.

[Giuseppe]

Which is a giant crock of shit that makes absolutely no logical sense.

Well, of course it does. Phil let his mouth overload his ass and ran off to Austrailia with Longley in a Speedo. Then when he quickly realized his folly, he skinned & grinned,,,shuffled & skulked to a payphone and called the girl. She went out to the Bryant Compound and asked Kobe for Jackson. Kobe, in his basement, playing Naruto said: "ok." and that was it.

[Giuseppe]

Um, these two basically say the same thing. Maybe I worded it poorly, but I was referring to you saying Jackson begged Kobe to let (Jackson) return to the Lakers.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Neo.]

Look how angry and emotional you're getting. Typical insecure Lebron dick sucker. :lol

Hating on an entitled, ringless, dancing douche with a CHOSEN ONE tattoo, that speaks seriously in third person while throwing chalk in your face has nothing to do Kobe or MJ. Stop deluding yourself.

Looks like the angry emotional one is you, considering how quickly you were to respond to this post.

lol instantly assuming I'm a Bron fan because I simply mentioned him in a post of truth of how MJ fans shit on Kobe fans, Kobe fans cry like dumbasses, then because they got shat on by MJ fans, they feel the need to shit on Lebron fans.

Kobe lovers = most obnoxious fanbase on earth (maybe equal to Steeler fans). They are the #1 reason why so many people hate on Kobe and want him to fail, because the fans are fucking annoying as shit.

[Kyle Orton]

Lebron lovers have never been as ridiculously obnoxious as Kobe lovers.

Any Lebron lover who tries to justify "The Decision" or tries to justify Lebron standing in a corner watching Anthony Parker run pick and rolls with Anderson Varejao against Boston last year is plenty ridiculous on his own.

[Spur-Addict]

Gasol is just having some problems with physical defenders, with actual defensive ability. There's a difference between physical defenders, with little ability, and those who have both.

Regular season and playoffs are different. He's getting punked, and it's a bit mental as well. It is still early, we shall see a change.

[Kyle Orton]

Well, of course it does. Phil let his mouth overload his ass and ran off to Austrailia with Longley in a Speedo. Then when he quickly realized his folly, he skinned & grinned,,,shuffled & skulked to a payphone and called the girl. She went out to the Bryant Compound and asked Kobe for Jackson. Kobe, in his basement, playing Naruto said: "ok." and that was it.

Where's the part about Phil himself begging Kobe?

[Isitjustme?]

If Lebron won some titles they would get real obnoxious. Maybe not as much now that he's on the Heat and that team has no real fans.

[Giuseppe]

people hate on Kobe and want him to fail, because the fans are fucking annoying as shit.

You want him to fail because he raped and skated. Then he compounded your misery by getting his fervent wish:::he rang without Daddy, not once, but, to your abstract horror, twice. In your eyes he passed Duncan. Kobe coulda cared less about Duncan. He wanted Daddy. And now he's hunting Jordan.

Good hunting, Kobe!

[Giuseppe]

Where's the part about Phil himself begging Kobe?

I explained that further above.

[Neo.]

Any Lebron lover who tries to justify "The Decision" or tries to justify Lebron standing in a corner watching Anthony Parker run pick and rolls with Anderson Varejao against Boston last year is plenty ridiculous on his own.

Thing is, most of them dont justify that much anymore (from what I've seen anyways). Most Lebron fans I know all say they felt that The Desicion was over the top, and that him giving up was inexcusable... but then again, Kobe gave up against the Suns in 2006, and not too long after that he was demanding to be traded from the Lakers. Kobe also used his free agency in 2004 as leverage against the Lakers to get rid of Shaq and Phil. So he has done his share of shady things, much like Lebron has. The only reason Kobe is getting excused now is because he got some rings, and did a damn good job at doing so. If Bron gets some rings and does a damn good job of doing so as well, he will start getting some of his past bullshit excused as well.

[JamStone]

Kobe lovers = most obnoxious fanbase on earth (maybe equal to Steeler fans). They are the #1 reason why so many people hate on Kobe and want him to fail, because the fans are fucking annoying as shit.

Post 2004 Boston Red Sox fans... combine that with the fact many of them are Patriots and Celtics fans, the modern 2000 Boston fan trumps any fan when it comes to being obnoxious, even Kobe/Laker fans and Yankee fans.

[Giuseppe]

Thing is, most of them dont justify that much anymore (from what I've seen anyways). Most Lebron fans I know all say they felt that The Desicion was over the top, and that him giving up was inexcusable... but then again, Kobe gave up against the Suns in 2006, and not too long after that he was demanding to be traded from the Lakers. Kobe also used his free agency in 2004 as leverage against the Lakers to get rid of Shaq and Phil. So he has done his share of shady things, much like Lebron has. The only reason Kobe is getting excused now is because he got some rings, and did a damn good job at doing so. If Bron gets some rings and does a damn good job of doing so as well, he will start getting some of his past bullshit excused as well.

I never excuse Kobe:::he raped. he ratted out Daddy. he quit Vs. Phoenix.

I'll eat that shit sandwich.

It's my religion.

[Neo.]

You want him to fail because he raped and skated. Then he compounded your misery by getting his fervent wish:::he rang without Daddy, not once, but, to your abstract horror, twice. In your eyes he passed Duncan. Kobe coulda cared less about Duncan. He wanted Daddy. And now he's hunting Jordan.

Good hunting, Kobe!

Actually I like Kobe, and think he is a top 5 player in NBA history. But unless he does some really ridiculous stuff to finish his career, he wont ever be able to surpass Jordan's greatness in the eyes of the general public, mainly because of all of Jordan's accomplishments in a career that was shorter than it could have been (because of his own dumb desicions leading to his forced early retirement).

[Neo.]

Post 2004 Boston Red Sox fans... combine that with the fact many of them are Patriots and Celtics fans, the modern 2000 Boston fan trumps any fan when it comes to being obnoxious, even Kobe/Laker fans and Yankee fans.

definitely arguable. Although I don't know if anyone can trump Steeler fan in terms of obnoxiousness.

[Giuseppe]

Actually I like Kobe, and think he is a top 5 player in NBA history. But unless he does some really ridiculous stuff to finish his career, he wont ever be able to surpass Jordan's greatness in the eyes of the general public, mainly because of all of Jordan's accomplishments in a career that was shorter than it could have been (because of his own dumb desicions leading to his forced early retirement).

Kobe is pathological enough to believe in his heart that anything above 6 will grant him station over Jordan.

It won't bother him an iota the endless hum of debate & discussion Kobe Vs. MJ. If he has that number.

[Kyle Orton]

And for that matter, any MJ fan who views MJ as anything off the basketball court is a moron too. He is a way bigger shithead than Kobe or even Lebron. I have no way of proving this, but IMO MJ having a passionate love for basketball is a myth. He's used his status as a basketball player to become the poster boy for self-indulgence. His entire life outside of basketball has been him looking for instant gratification. Gambling as much as humanly possible, cheating on his wife as much as humanly possible, becoming the poster boy for a company that abuses sweat shop labor and admittedly not giving a shit about it, inviting the scrub who made his HS team over him to his HOF induction just to embarrass him, being about as stingy with charity as someone worth hundreds of millions could possibly be, etc. MJ is about as far away from a role model as someone can possibly be.

[21_Blessings]

Actually I like Kobe, and think he is a top 5 player in NBA history. But unless he does some really ridiculous stuff to finish his career, he wont ever be able to surpass Jordan's greatness in the eyes of the general public, mainly because of all of Jordan's accomplishments in a career that was shorter than it could have been (because of his own dumb desicions leading to his forced early retirement).

Kobe already won. Your post is proof.

If he transcends 6, nobody after him can touch his legacy. It will be MJ vs Kobe till the end of time.

Magic would have been there if wasn't for all that unprotected ass-fucking, though.

[Giuseppe]

Kobe already won. Your post is proof.

If he transcends 6, nobody after him can touch his legacy. It will be MJ vs Kobe till the end of time.

Magic would have been there if wasn't for all that unprotected ass-fucking, though.

He'd still be there if he'd a just waited 24 hours before opening his big fucking mouth.

[Kyle Orton]

I also think Yankees fans are up there in obnoxiousness. Yankees fans take the biggest free agent every year and just say the most corny things ever like, "You can fit him for pinstripes right now since Cliff Lee is a lock for the Yankees!"

[LnGrrrR]

Post 2004 Boston Red Sox fans... combine that with the fact many of them are Patriots and Celtics fans, the modern 2000 Boston fan trumps any fan when it comes to being obnoxious, even Kobe/Laker fans and Yankee fans.

Depends on what you mean by "obnoxious". Loud? Arrogant? Ignorant? Etc etc

[picc84]

The only reason Kobe is getting excused now is because he got some rings, and did a damn good job at doing so. If Wade gets some rings and does a damn good job of doing so as well, he will start getting some of his past bullshit excused as well.

Fixed. If the Heat do any ringing, it'll be on the back of old Flash. He's the gamer.

[21_Blessings]

Depends on what you mean by "obnoxious". Loud? Arrogant? Ignorant? Etc etc

All of the above?

[The Gemini Method]

Shaq is pretty much deadweight these days...

The thing is, I don't know if anyone is serious when they make the claim that he was back in his Lakers days. He, and for the most part, was always fun to watch because there wasn't anything anyone could do to stop him most times. The only bone of contention I have with Shaq is his lack of effort during the off season. Other than that, I am grateful the guy played with us before he ate one too many double-cheeseburgers. Or, well, on a limited scale.

[Neo.]

And for that matter, any MJ fan who views MJ as anything off the basketball court is a moron too. He is a way bigger shithead than Kobe or even Lebron. I have no way of proving this, but IMO MJ having a passionate love for basketball is a myth. He's used his status as a basketball player to become the poster boy for self-indulgence. His entire life outside of basketball has been him looking for instant gratification. Gambling as much as humanly possible, cheating on his wife as much as humanly possible, becoming the poster boy for a company that abuses sweat shop labor and admittedly not giving a shit about it, inviting the scrub who made his HS team over him to his HOF induction just to embarrass him, being about as stingy with charity as someone worth hundreds of millions could possibly be, etc. MJ is about as far away from a role model as someone can possibly be.

+1

MJ was absolutely an amazing basketball player, but could be quite a douche off the court.

[Neo.]

Kobe already won. Your post is proof.

If he transcends 6, nobody after him can touch his legacy. It will be MJ vs Kobe till the end of time.

Magic would have been there if wasn't for all that unprotected ass-fucking, though.

incorrect

[Quadzilla99]

MJ's douchiness is vastly overrated. If you watch that Ron Shelton doc on ESPN, playing minor league baseball mellowed him out a lot and according to PJ made him a much better teammate.

[Neo.]

Fixed. If the Heat do any ringing, it'll be on the back of old Flash. He's the gamer.

Wade and Bron = 1a and 1b, just like Kobe and Shaq. Each of them have abilities that compliment each other. Bron is the go-to guy for the majority of the game, while Wade takes over during the time Bron is out, and to finish games. Their differing skillsets make them perfect for each role, as Bron is more physically impacting on the game which works until the end of close games when teams can and do play a lot more physical, where Wade's agile and finesse style of scoring works better.

[picc84]

MJ's douchiness is vastly overrated. If you watch that Ron Shelton doc on ESPN, playing minor league baseball mellowed him out a lot and according to PJ made him a much better teammate.

I read that. Considering he punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice after he came back, I wonder what kind of things he was pulling before. To think that "mellow" MJ was decking teammates makes it seem like pre-retirement MJ must have been a real peach.

[21_Blessings]

The thing is, I don't know if anyone is serious when they make the claim that he was back in his Lakers days. He, and for the most part, was always fun to watch because there wasn't anything anyone could do to stop him most times. The only bone of contention I have with Shaq is his lack of effort during the off season. Other than that, I am grateful the guy played with us before he ate one too many double-cheeseburgers. Or, well, on a limited scale.

You could still foul Shaq, or torch him on the PnR over and over during his prime. But there is a reason why Shaq went from getting perennially swept out of the playoffs to a threepeat after Kobe emerged as a top two player in the league.

Shaq was a ridiculous beast and no one defended him more than I back in the day. But he definitely was not the self proclaimed "most dominant ever". Not when Hakeem undressed him in the finals like he did.

[Quadzilla99]

I read that. Considering he punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice after he came back, I wonder what kind of things he was pulling before. To think that "mellow" MJ was decking teammates makes it seem like pre-retirement MJ must have been a real peach.

Hold onto that incident. Which according to everyone was a non-issue by the end of the day and ignore that there is a little more subtlety and nuance than just the MJ was a faggot angle you're going for.

[Quadzilla99]

You could still foul Shaq, or torch him on the PnR over and over during his prime. But there is a reason why Shaq went from getting perennially swept out of the playoffs to a threepeat after Kobe emerged as a top two player in the league.

Shaq was a ridiculous beast and no one defended him more than I back in the day. But he definitely was not the self proclaimed "most dominant ever". Not when Hakeem undressed him in the finals like he did.

Kobe was not a top 10 player in 2000.

[picc84]

Nothing subtle about a black eye. Specially on a white boy.

[Quadzilla99]

Nothing subtle about a black eye. Specially on a white boy.

:rolleyes

[21_Blessings]

Kobe was not a top 10 player in 2000.

Yeah thats because he was top 5 (top 2 by June). And easily the best two way player in the NBA after Duncan.

Best closer in the game (as proven against the Suns/Blazers and game 4 of the finals on a bum ankle). + All NBA first defense and snubbed off 1st team NBA because he was so young.

[Neo.]

Kobe was not a top 10 player in 2000.

yes he was

top 5 without question

[Booharv]

tbh he averaged 22 ppg in the regular season and 21 in the playoffs. All of his advanced metrics were underwhelming too. This is a clear case of someone getting overrated because they rung.

[picc84]

:rolleyes

I don't hold it against him. MJ is my 2nd favorite player ever. Am, and always was, a huge fan.

Regardless of what he was like in practice or off the courts.

[The Gemini Method]

You could still foul Shaq, or torch him on the PnR over and over during his prime. But there is a reason why Shaq went from getting perennially swept out of the playoffs to a threepeat after Kobe emerged as a top two player in the league.

Shaq was a ridiculous beast and no one defended him more than I back in the day. But he definitely was not the self proclaimed "most dominant ever". Not when Hakeem undressed him in the finals like he did.

Good points. I don't like self-given nicknames in the least (I abhor the whole Black Mamba nickname). Hakeem did murder him in the Finals, but he didn't (for once) blow the freethrows like Dennis Scott did. It was also his first learning experience. Most every championship team goes through the trials and tribulations of being humilated at some point before breaking through. He also could've rebounded a hell lot more.

The one thing I'll always agree on is that I don't understand how the detractors will always claim that Shaq won those three titles on his own. I mean, if that were the case then all of those integral contributors (outside of Kobe--because he was a main component in those titles) mind as well give their rings and Finals bonuses to Shaq because from Shaw to Horry there were tons of situations in which the surrounding cast saved Shaq and Kobe from disaster. Anyhow, I personally would welcome Shaq's jersey to be retired in Staples. I don't know if it'll happen, but it really should when he finally bids adieu.

[Booharv]

Jordan's supposed douche baggery in practice was probably a better motivating tactic than whatever hand holding Mr. Rogers type alternative his detractors would have preferred he employed.

[JamStone]

Depends on what you mean by "obnoxious". Loud? Arrogant? Ignorant? Etc etc

To me, being an obnoxious sports fan kind of goes along the lines of being overly pompous and arrogant when your team is doing well and talking down to other fans as if you actually played for the team or had anything to do with its success. That's obnoxious to me. You can add the loud part and it just magnifies the obnoxiousness. That's what I probably find most obnoxious. As if your team winning a championship means you're a smarter or better fan than fans of teams that didn't win a championship. As if you had a big part in the championship yourself. I think there's a line fans can cross distinguishing sincere excitement for your team's success and delusional fandom over what your role was in their success. That's obnoxious.

Mind you, it's a blanket statement. There are good and bad in every fanbase. I was just speaking in general. I think after the 2004 World Series, Boston fan let the top blow off from decades worth of frustration like a volcanic explosion. Like I said, coupled with the success of the Patriots and then culminating with the 2008 NBA title, Boston fan could see no equal and acted the part to the tee ever since. Then you add that "Shipping off to Boston" song and the red headed Shamus from WWE looking freaks and the Kevin Youkilis worship and the Papelbon stare and the KG chest pound and the Belichick smirk and all of the other negative things associated with the actual teams... and right or wrong those things get transposed onto their fans.

[The Gemini Method]

Can you imagine how must top will be blown off if the Cubs ever win the WS?

[picc84]

tbh he averaged 22 ppg in the regular season and 21 in the playoffs. All of his advanced metrics were underwhelming too. This is a clear case of someone getting overrated because they rung.

21/5/5 closer while being one of the top 2-3 perimeter defenders in the league and taking everyone's best swingman.

Like taking Manu and Bruise Bowen and combining them into one player.

If that ain't top 10, there aint a top 10.

[lefty]

I read that. Considering he punched Steve Kerr in the face during practice after he came back, I wonder what kind of things he was pulling before. To think that "mellow" MJ was decking teammates makes it seem like pre-retirement MJ must have been a real peach.
Cartwright wanted to break his legs
And Cartwright is a pretty cool cat

[21_Blessings]

Good points. I don't like self-given nicknames in the least (I abhor the whole Black Mamba nickname). Hakeem did murder him in the Finals, but he didn't (for once) blow the freethrows like Dennis Scott did. It was also his first learning experience. Most every championship team goes through the trials and tribulations of being humilated at some point before breaking through. He also could've rebounded a hell lot more.



Shaq held his own against Hakeem but it was clear the Dream was just on a different level, on both ends of the floor. Penny was out of this world good back then too.

[Booharv]

21/5/5 closer while being one of the top 2-3 perimeter defenders in the league and taking everyone's best swingman.

Like taking Manu and Bruise Bowen and combining them into one player.

If that ain't top 10, there aint a top 10.

He was like a Manu Ginobili player at that point of his career, very good but probably not top 10. Just because the Lakers won that year, his performance gets overrated. Like they won so he must have been a top 10 guy. Same mentality that gets players like James Posey 30 million dollar contracts or Larry Brown millions with the Raiders. Those guys were role players wsho got overrated but that win elevated Kobe from what he was that year (a legit all-star) into a supposed top 5 or 10 player. The next year is when he made the big leap. He was significantly below guys like Malone, Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq in 2000. He was borderline and right around the same level as Iverson, Allen, VC, and Miller tbh. Although you could argue Carter would have shit the bed in the playoffs.

[Quadzilla99]

yes he was

top 5 without question

Bullshit you just pulled that right out of your ass, give me your top 6-7.

[JamStone]

Kobe was not a top 10 player in 2000.

Very debatable. That was the season Kobe arguably came into his own as an elite player. Ended the season with quite a few honors. He was an all star, second team all NBA, first team all NBA defense, and finished 12th in MVP voting. If he wasn't top 10 already, he was right on the cusp. But with the Lakers success that season and back then he was a beast on defense as well, there's a pretty strong argument that he had already cracked the top 10 in the league.

[Quadzilla99]

He was like a Manu Ginobili player at that point of his career, very good but probably not top 10. Just because the Lakers won that year, his performance gets overrated. Like they won so he must have been a top 10 guy. Same mentality that gets players like James Posey 30 million dollar contracts or Larry Brown millions with the Raiders. Those guys were role players wsho got overrated but that win elevated Kobe from what he was that year (a legit all-star) into a supposed top 5 or 10 player. The next year is when he made the big leap. He was significantly below guys like Malone, Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq in 2000. He was borderline and right around the same level as Iverson, Allen, VC, and Miller tbh. Although you could argue Carter would have shit the bed in the playoffs.

He was good mainly playing off Shaq that year, when O'Neal went out of the game and defenses could focus on him he became pretty average. He had one good game in the Finals when Shaq was sidelined, but for the most part he wasn't anywhere near where he would be in the next few years.

[picc84]

So defense doesn't matter now, huh? If Manu played defense like 2000 Kobe you Spurs mongers would probably tout him for MVP.

Fact of the matter is, he was a Manu caliber offensive player who was one of if not the best perimeter defender in the league. That kind of impact on both ends of the court don't just count for nothing. You merge Ginobili and prime Bruise into one guy and you have a top 10 player.

[Booharv]

tbh I can't remember back that far in that much detail. But I doubt he became average when Shaq left the game.

[JamStone]

He was like a Manu Ginobili player at that point of his career, very good but probably not top 10. Just because the Lakers won that year, his performance gets overrated. Like they won so he must have been a top 10 guy. Same mentality that gets players like James Posey 30 million dollar contracts or Larry Brown millions with the Raiders. Those guys were role players wsho got overrated but that win elevated Kobe from what he was that year (a legit all-star) into a supposed top 5 or 10 player. The next year is when he made the big leap. He was significantly below guys like Malone, Robinson, Mourning, Payton, Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq in 2000. He was borderline and right around the same level as Iverson, Allen, VC, and Miller tbh. Although you could argue Carter would have shit the bed in the playoffs.

Like I just said, it's debatable.

He was second team all NBA (you can argue that makes him top 10) and first team all defense. And those honors were based on the regular season before the Lakers won the title that year. So the perception, deserved or not, at least among coaches in the league was that he was right around a top 10 player in the league already.

You mentioned 7 guys ahead of him and four guys you think he was on par with. That puts him right around top 10.

[21_Blessings]

LOL he said Robinson


Very debatable. That was the season Kobe arguably came into his own as an elite player. Ended the season with quite a few honors. He was an all star, second team all NBA, first team all NBA defense, and finished 12th in MVP voting. If he wasn't top 10 already, he was right on the cusp. But with the Lakers success that season and back then he was a beast on defense as well, there's a pretty strong argument that he had already cracked the top 10 in the league.

Maybe you could make the argument he wasn't top 10 to start the season. But he was evolving at rapid speed and looked like a future legend by the end of May. There wasn't a guard/wing in the league I'd take over him by time the playoffs rolled around.

[Booharv]

Like I just said, it's debatable.

He was second team all NBA (you can argue that makes him top 10) and first team all defense. And those honors were based on the regular season before the Lakers won the title that year. So the perception, deserved or not, at least among coaches in the league was that he was right around a top 10 player in the league already.

You mentioned 6 guys ahead of him and four guys you think he was on par with. That puts him right around top 10.

Yeah, I think I would have in the top 10 now that I think about it and look at who was around then.

[JamStone]

Maybe you could make the argument he wasn't top 10 to start the season. But he was evolving at rapid speed and looked like a future legend by the end of May. There wasn't a guard/wing in the league I'd take over him by time the playoffs rolled around.

Probably would agree with the first part.

Last comment, I'd probably argue Grant Hill (although he was injured by the time of the playoffs), Gary Payton, and maybe even Vince Carter. Back then we didn't know how VC would turn out but going into the playoff he looked every bit the part as one of the best players in the league.

[Booharv]

LOL he said Robinson


Robinson had a 25 PER, and led the league in defensive rating. You must be a huge Shaq hater if you think he and Robinson couldn't have won multiple championships together.

[Quadzilla99]

So defense doesn't matter now, huh? If Manu played defense like 2000 Kobe you Spurs mongers would probably tout him for MVP.

Fact of the matter is, he was a Manu caliber offensive player who was one of if not the best perimeter defender in the league. That kind of impact on both ends of the court don't just count for nothing. You merge Ginobili and prime Bruise into one guy and you have a top 10 player.

Kobe was never anywhere near Bowen's level of defense.

[JamStone]

Kobe was never anywhere near Bowen's level of defense.

Back then, Kobe actually was pretty close. His defense has been severely overblown probably since around 2002 or 2003 and he's been living off reputation since. But in the late 90s and first few season of the 2000s, Kobe was an elite perimeter defender. Maybe not as good as a Bowen or Payton, but he was in the neighborhood.

[Booharv]

tbh if advanced statistics ever catch on in basketball like they have in baseball--and all signs point to them becoming more and more popular every day--Robinson is one player who will benefit from that. Of course Hakeem raping him in 1995 will always be the turd in that punch bowl.

[picc84]

Every bit as good as Bowen. Probably better.

[ElNono]

Too many elite/good/promising guards back then though... Payton, Stockton, VC, T-Mac, Iverson, Kobe.... yet it was a big men league then...

[Quadzilla99]

tbh if advanced statistics ever catch on in basketball like they have in baseball--and all signs point to them becoming more and more popular every day--Robinson is one player who will benefit from that. Of course Hakeem raping him in 1995 will always be the turd in that punch bowl.

Hakeem destroyed everyone back then. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, it didn't matter.

[The Gemini Method]

Even in a thread about him, Pau gets punked by another player...the kicker? It's his own teammate.

[ElNono]

Kobe has been an elite defender in the past when he wanted to. The difference is that he didn't always want to play the role. Nowadays, much like Bowen in his twilight, his body can't react as fast as he would want to.

[Booharv]

Hakeem destroyed everyone back then. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, it didn't matter.

Yeah but he especially crushed Robinson in that WCF.

[picc84]

Back then, Kobe actually was pretty close. His defense has been severely overblown probably since around 2006 and he's been living off reputation since.

Fixed.

'99 to '00 were his "lockdown everyone all the time because I don't have to score 30 a game" years.

'01-'05 were his "lockdown everyone whenever I want because I still can" years.

In '06 his knee problems started up again and his effort on that end dropped indefinitely because he was carrying the team. Anytime from 2000 to 2005 i'll put him on a hot scorer over Bowen anyday of the week and twice on sunday.

[ElNono]

As far as the OP, Pau is a maggot indeed. But he's a smart player, and he'll find a way to contribute. When he does, the Lakers will blow this NOH team away. Unfortunately, Bynum is not the difference maker the team would like him to be. Too inconsistent. Lakers go as far as Pau takes them.

[The Gemini Method]

Hakeem destroyed everyone back then. Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, it didn't matter.

Olajuwon was definitely thatGUY back around that time. I'm guessing I wasn't the only one trying to do the Dream Shake in middle school and high school. Amazing. That's why people still go to him for pointers and you can see the direct results in Dwight Howard's game because of the tutelage of The Dream. Too bad he and Sampson never got along. That would've been unimaginable.

[21_Blessings]

Probably would agree with the first part.

Last comment, I'd probably argue Grant Hill (although he was injured by the time of the playoffs), Gary Payton, and maybe even Vince Carter. Back then we didn't know how VC would turn out but going into the playoff he looked every bit the part as one of the best players in the league.

Agree about VC but he wasn't Kobe. There is a reason Kobe was getting the Jordan comparisons. VC was dripping with raw talent. In contrast, Kobe's post-game was already being polished by the Phoenix series and he could shut down All-Stars at three different positions.

Gary Payton, now don't be ridiculous. He was basically a shooting guard in a point's body. Kobe was already a more deadly closer, created just as well and was more versatile defensively with his size. Payton was in his 30s and still hadn't lived down the Denver choke.

[The Gemini Method]

As far as the OP, Pau is a maggot indeed. But he's a smart player, and he'll find a way to contribute. When he does, the Lakers will blow this NOH team away. Unfortunately, Bynum is not the difference maker the team would like him to be. Too inconsistent. Lakers go as far as Pau takes them.

That's not true...he's consistent at getting an injured knee.

I dont know if you can blame his inconsistency on being incosistent. I think it's partly the fault of the coaching staff as they're constantly harping that Bynum needs to do the defensive thing first. Then, when Gasol is shitting the bed--he has a game like this. I think, the fact that he was able to step up his O last night was a sign of him being more consistent than in prior seasons. I can't fault him for going up and down, because the staff has him in a precarious position.

The dude has not have enough time to build consistency as well. That 17-1 run was due in part to him being 'consitent' on the defensive end. Also, I wonder if the fact that for once in his injury-riddled career, he's trying to make up for lost time.

[picc84]

Kobe's post-game was already being polished by the Phoenix series and he could shut down All-Stars at three different positions.


The god's honest truth. If Bean didn't want you scoring back then, you weren't scoring. The springs in his legs mixed with the cat reflexes were a glory to behold.

[Quadzilla99]

Olajuwon was definitely thatGUY back around that time. I'm guessing I wasn't the only one trying to do the Dream Shake in middle school and high school. Amazing. That's why people still go to him for pointers and you can see the direct results in Dwight Howard's game because of the tutelage of The Dream. Too bad he and Sampson never got along. That would've been unimaginable.

:tu This is one of my favorite player highlight videos ever. The Biggie song clinches it.

uBrEsNS9zKg

[21_Blessings]

robinson

LoL

[Booharv]

Tbh as a sidekick to Shaq, Robinson could have won at least 5-6 rings. That frontcourt :wow

[ElNono]

That's not true...he's consistent at getting an injured knee.

:lol


I dont know if you can blame his inconsistency on being incosistent. I think it's partly the fault of the coaching staff as they're constantly harping that Bynum needs to do the defensive thing first. Then, when Gasol is shitting the bed--he has a game like this. I think, the fact that he was able to step up his O last night was a sign of him being more consistent than in prior seasons. I can't fault him for going up and down, because the staff has him in a precarious position.

I don't blame his inconsistency 'on being incosistent'. You can pin down his inconsistency on a number of things. He has the tools to be dominant but only does so in very limited spurts (otherwise we would have a 21_Palins thread every other game :lol). Be it motivation, or whatever. Heck, we're talking about Bynum only because of how much Pau is sucking, not because he's been on a tear all season long. Yet Bynum can't even match Pau's average playoff production right now.

[21_Blessings]

That frontcourt :wow

Wouldn't work nearly as well as Robinson/Duncan.

Now Kobe with Duncan as his second option? 6-8 straight imo.

[ElNono]

lol @ this revisionist Kobe history, sons... What happened with this guy from 2003-2007??? Did the league disappear? :lol

[The Gemini Method]

:lol



I don't blame his inconsistency 'on being incosistent'. You can pin down his inconsistency on a number of things. He has the tools to be dominant but only does so in very limited spurts (otherwise we would have a 21_Palins thread every other game :lol). Be it motivation, or whatever. Heck, we're talking about Bynum only because of how much Pau is sucking, not because he's been on a tear all season long. Yet Bynum can't even match Pau's average playoff production right now.

True. Though, I'd like to also put in question the way he's been utilized. But he is a member of the Big P coalition and i'm not talking Pu@#y like Pau is...(Potential).

[Giuseppe]

lol @ this revisionist Kobe history, sons... What happened with this guy from 2003-2007??? Did the league disappear? :lol

No. Kobe got careless & reckless. It cost him his prime's prime.

He's salvaged his career though thru the last two rings. He delivered his own deliverance.

[Nathan89]

I've seen them get discredited when Kobe is being compared to MJ.

Kobe is also the only guy who can receive less MVP votes than a teammate during a 3peat while said teammate wins finals MVP all 3 years, yet have fans of the team refer to him as the best player on that team.

1) That's because Duncan was far and away the best player on the 2007 Spurs
2) I've heard plenty of Duncan haters use the argument that the 2007 Spurs were Parker's team. Do you ever see Magic's 5 rings get compared to Jordan's 6 rings? No one tries to discredit Magic as a 5 time NBA champion because no one tries to over-glorify him.

How much credit would Lakers fans give Scottie Pippen for his 6 titles if there were a bunch of people saying Scottie > Kobe because 6 > 5? I'm willing to bet all of my internal organs that Lakerfan would use the sidekick argument, and for good reason. Winning championships as the #2 option or 1B option shouldn't add to a legacy as much as winning championships as the undisputed #1 option like Kobe has been on the last 2 teams and Pippen has never been.

Nice post.:tu

[21_Blessings]

"average playoff production"

Spoken like a true idiot that doesn't watch basketball games. :lol

Replace that has-been in Duncan with Bynum next to that worthless front line and Mandrew will give you some F'n production.

[ElNono]

Spoken like a true idiot that doesn't watch basketball games. :lol

Replace that has-been in Duncan with Bynum next to that worthless front line and Mandrew will give you some F'n production.

'Dominant' Bynum struggling to match Pau's production and barely squeaking by a 7th seed without one of their stars at home... :lol

lol @ not watching games...

At least I'll agree that Duncan is old and on the decline... What's Andrew's excuse? Or better yet, what excuse are you going to make for him? :lmao

[JamStone]

lol @ this revisionist Kobe history, sons... What happened with this guy from 2003-2007??? Did the league disappear? :lol

Kobe was in the league then too. Knew he couldn't win shit so he stat padded like a mufuga. Put up numbers on bad or average teams. In those four seasons, still had four all star appearances, 3 all NBA 1st team selections, 1 3rd team selection, 3 all defense (not warranted imo), put up some ridiculous scoring performances and led the league in scoring twice, and since he was incapable of getting his team deep in the playoffs, pulled a meaningless ASG MVP for fun. Where was Kobe from 2003-2007? He was putting in work with very little team payoff.

Just because Kobe wasn't winning titles, it doesn't mean he completely sucked during those seasons in between Shaq and Pau. Doesn't mean he shouldn't take criticism for his selfishness or inability to lead a team deep in the playoffs without at least a very good supporting cast and at least one elite big man. The criticisms are fair. But he certainly wasn't out of the league. And talent-wise, he was still one of the top players of the league. It just didn't translate much to team success. And sure he should take heat for that.

Not all Kobe fans completely gas up Kobe to unjustifiable extremes. He is what he is. He's a great talent who can be an integral player on a championship team. And he's proven that he can help a team win a championship as a "sidekick," as a 1B go-to guy, and as the undisputed leader of the team. Does he need help? Absolutely. Can he win without a great big man? Nope. Is he at the same level as Michael? Hell no. Will he ever be? No to that too. Good chance no NBA player ever will be. Kobe is where he should be. One of the great NBA players of his generation and as it stands now a top 15 player in the history of the league, and arguably top 10 depending on your own opinion.

I think some Kobe critics think Kobe fans are all extreme in their view of him. There are some Kobe fans who are more than reasonable.

[ElNono]

Kobe was in the league then too. Knew he couldn't win shit so he stat padded like a mufuga. Put up numbers on bad or average teams. In those four seasons, still had four all star appearances, 3 all NBA 1st team selections, 1 3rd team selection, 3 all defense (not warranted imo), put up some ridiculous scoring performances and led the league in scoring twice, and since he was incapable of getting his team deep in the playoffs, pulled a meaningless ASG MVP for fun. Where was Kobe from 2003-2007? He was putting in work with very little team payoff.

Just because Kobe wasn't winning titles, it doesn't mean he completely sucked during those seasons in between Shaq and Pau. Doesn't mean he shouldn't take criticism for his selfishness or inability to lead a team deep in the playoffs without at least a very good supporting cast and at least one elite big man. The criticisms are fair. But he certainly wasn't out of the league. And talent-wise, he was still one of the top players of the league. It just didn't translate much to team success. And sure he should take heat for that.

Not all Kobe fans completely gas up Kobe to unjustifiable extremes. He is what he is. He's a great talent who can be an integral player on a championship team. And he's proven that he can help a team win a championship as a "sidekick," as a 1B go-to guy, and as the undisputed leader of the team. Does he need help? Absolutely. Can he win without a great big man? Nope. Is he at the same level as Michael? Hell no. Will he ever be? No to that too. Good chance no NBA player ever will be. Kobe is where he should be. One of the great NBA players of his generation and as it stands now a top 15 player in the history of the league, and arguably top 10 depending on your own opinion.

I think some Kobe critics think Kobe fans are all extreme in their view of him. There are some Kobe fans who are more than reasonable.

You're not your average Kobe cockslobber, Jammy. You're well aware of who the player is and what his limitations are, something clearly reflected in your post. But also something your average Kobefan(tm) isn't willing to accept.

[Kyle Orton]

If Kobe were to serve the Heat a championship on a silver platter circa Detroit in 2004, would HarlemHeat, MiamiHeat and ChrisRichards love him as much as Jamstone does?

[JamStone]

Magic was my second favorite player growing up, and it didn't change during the 1988 and 1989 NBA Finals. Respecting an individual player and his talent doesn't affect my team allegiance. For the better part of the decade from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s, my favorite player in the league was Allen Iverson. Never once did I want his Sixers teams to beat the Pistons. Still my favorite player in the league.

Detroit Pistons fan first and foremost. But I am a fan of the sport and a fan of individual players too.

[Kyle Orton]

Um, I was implying you like Kobe because he gifted your team its 3rd championship.

It's the same reason Spurs fans love Lebron for being a classy loser in 2007.

[JamStone]

Apologize. I misread your post.

[der Kaiser]

You can always tell Laker fans from Kobe fans.

Laker fans miss the Shaq days

I do miss the Shaq days. Or maybe I just miss the NBA on NBC days.

[Giuseppe]

Bryant was right about Daddy. Shaq ended up barnstorming the league in the finest traditions of Barnum & Bailey and that Gaga idiot. Kobe has doubled Shaq's output in ringage. As much jackassing as Phil did upon initial flight, he quickly realized his folly and came back, hat-in-hand, certifying not only Koby's wisdom in the matter, but, allowing Bryant's latent goodness to surface.

Kobe Bryant was right.