Why Science Is a Lousy Career Choice

[ElNono]

Why Science Is a Lousy Career Choice

"President Obama had a town hall meeting at Facebook's headquarters last week and said that he wanted to encourage females and minorities to pursue STEM disciplines (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics). However, Pastabagel writes that the need for American students to study STEM is one of the tired refrains in modern American politics and that plenty of people already study science, but they don't work in science (http://partialobjects.com/2011/04/405/). 'MIT grads are more likely to end up in the financial industry, where quants and traders are very well compensated, than in the semiconductor industry where the spectre of outsourcing to India and Asia will hang over their heads for their entire career.' Philip Greenspun adds that science can be fun, but considered as a career, science suffers by comparison to the professions and the business world (http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science). 'The average scientist that I encounter expresses bitterness about (a) low pay, (b) not getting enough credit or references to his or her work, (c) not knowing where the next job is coming from, (d) not having enough money or job security to get married and/or have children,' writes Greenspun. 'Pursuing science as a career seems so irrational that one wonders why any young American would do it.'"

[coyotes_geek]

http://iamtoocurious.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Truth-About-Non-Engineering%20Majors-01.jpg
http://iamtoocurious.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Truth-About-Non-Engineering%20Majors-02.jpg
http://iamtoocurious.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Truth-About-Non-Engineering%20Majors-03.jpg

[baseline bum]

You say this as if math and science ever paid well. The annals of history are littered with the corpses of great mathematicians who died broke: Abel, Eisenstein, and Cantor are three of the most important I can think of off hand.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oh great my son excels at math and science..... He loves his math and science classes... the science channels, mythbusters, etc....

he's going to be broke..:depressed

[Sec24Row7]

Yep... and scientists who make money by working on science in industry are all hacks whose opinions are bought and paid for...

[101A]

Oh great my son excels at math and science..... He loves his math and science classes... the science channels, mythbusters, etc....

he's going to be broke..:depressed

No Brainer.

Med-School.

[boutons_deux]

medicine is sucky career for many docs, just see their polls on career satisfaction. 1000s of them are fleeing self-employment, the dream of their youth, to work as employees for clinics and hospitals.

The real hope for these people to practice medicine with youthful ideals is to be employees in public hospitals, with their medical education paid for 100% in return for at least 20 years as employee in public hospital or clinic.

[Sec24Row7]

medicine is sucky career for many docs, just see their polls on career satisfaction. 1000s of them are fleeing self-employment, the dream of their youth, to work as employees for clinics and hospitals.

The real hope for these people to practice medicine with youthful ideals is to be employees in public hospitals, with their medical education paid for 100% in return for at least 20 years as employee in public hospital or clinic.

Oh yeah... I'm sure... people that have gone out and worked hard their entire young adult life to get a foothold on a career that will make them well off are going to really enjoy being told by some know nothing internet troll living in his parent's basement that they should work 20 years for the government to pay off student loans.

[boutons_deux]

"work 20 years for the government to pay off student loans."

who said anything about loans?

[George Gervin's Afro]

No Brainer.

Med-School.

One of his uncles is an Orthopedic Surgeon..

[MannyIsGod]

No will be surprised, but I think that article is a complete pile of shit. Science isn't for everyone, and there is no doubt about that, but the financial sector is? Thats pretty laughable. STEM careers are the best type of educations to get right now. Whether that is engineering, computer science, mathematics, or another science.

Who do you think has a harder time right now: Someone with just another MBA or someone with a masters in any STEM related field?

[MannyIsGod]

Actually read this link

http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/women-in-science

Jesus its a pile of bullshit. Since when do all sciences go on to PhDs and to work in academia?

[MannyIsGod]

The vast majority of this list is STEM related. Even if you remove medical from STEM fields (and honestly I think you should) they still do extremely well.

[MannyIsGod]

Seriously Nono you posted this garbage?


Why does anyone think science is a good job?

The average trajectory for a successful scientist is the following:
age 18-22: paying high tuition fees at an undergraduate college
age 22-30: graduate school, possibly with a bit of work, living on a stipend of $1800 per month
age 30-35: working as a post-doc for $30,000 to $35,000 per year
age 36-43: professor at a good, but not great, university for $65,000 per year
age 44: with (if lucky) young children at home, fired by the university ("denied tenure" is the more polite term for the folks that universities discard), begins searching for a job in a market where employers primarily wish to hire folks in their early 30s
This is how things are likely to go for the smartest kid you sat next to in college. He got into Stanford for graduate school. He got a postdoc at MIT. His experiment worked out and he was therefore fortunate to land a job at University of California, Irvine. But at the end of the day, his research wasn't quite interesting or topical enough that the university wanted to commit to paying him a salary for the rest of his life. He is now 44 years old, with a family to feed, and looking for job with a "second rate has-been" label on his forehead.

Pretty sure most successful members of the STEM field are making quite a bit of money in the private sector.

[MannyIsGod]

The need for American students to study STEM is one of the tired refrains in modern American politics. But plenty of people do study these things. They just don’t work in those fields. MIT grads are more likely to end up in the financial industry, where quants and traders are very well compensated, than in the semiconductor industry where the spectre of outsourcing to India and Asia will hang over their heads for their entire career.

Would love to see the blogger back up that claim. Too bad they didn't bother and I can't find shit about it on the internet.

[MannyIsGod]

Top Employment Sectors for MIT Graduates
Undergrads Masters
Aerospace/defense 8% 6%
Biological science 8% 3%
Computer technologies 13% 17%
Consulting 18% 21%
Energy/utilities 6% 4%
Finance 16% 12%
Other engineering 11% 17%


16% maybe higher than the semiconductor industry but considering 84% end up in a STEM field the blogger makes incredibly stupid and invalid points.

http://web.mit.edu/facts/graduation.html

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos301.htm

The median earnings of engineers are equal to those of financial planners in every field and out do financial planners in many.

[mouse]

Top Employment Sectors for MIT Graduates
Undergrads Masters
Aerospace/defense 8% 6%
Biological science 8% 3%
Computer technologies 13% 17%
Consulting 18% 21%
Energy/utilities 6% 4%
Finance 16% 12%
Other engineering 11% 17%



What your stats don't show is what nightclubs those people are now bartenders at.

[ElNono]

Seriously Nono you posted this garbage?


Don't hate me, I'm just the messenger. Feel free to discuss/debunk...

[ElNono]

I actually think Technology & Engineering are probably two fields were you can make a living IF YOU'RE VERY TALENTED (that is, your skills are worth a good salary that won't be outsourced, or you're good enough to build your own business). Math and the rest of the sciences (outside of financial/medical) it's not so clear...

[LnGrrrR]

I actually think Technology & Engineering are probably two fields were you can make a living IF YOU'RE VERY TALENTED (that is, your skills are worth a good salary that won't be outsourced, or you're good enough to build your own business). Math and the rest of the sciences (outside of financial/medical) it's not so clear...

Is that why you're in IT? :lol

Personally, I'm glad you can't outsource a TS/SCI...

[MannyIsGod]

EN you're only the messenger but its a lousy tired message that isn't based in reality.

[coyotes_geek]

Would love to see the blogger back up that claim. Too bad they didn't bother and I can't find shit about it on the internet.

The blogger's article did seem pretty anecdotal.

[MannyIsGod]

I actually think Technology & Engineering are probably two fields were you can make a living IF YOU'RE VERY TALENTED (that is, your skills are worth a good salary that won't be outsourced, or you're good enough to build your own business). Math and the rest of the sciences (outside of financial/medical) it's not so clear...

Mathematicians:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos043.htm#projections_data

Expected to grow by 22% over the next decade with a mean earnings of just shy of 100k. (Better than financial analysts).

Statisticians

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos045.htm

Expected to grow about 13% with a median income of 72k. Right in line with financial planners.

Agricultural/Food Scientists

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos046.htm

Expected to grow 16% with a median income of 60k. Less than financial planning but I doubt anyone making 60k a year is poor.

Conservationists and Foresters

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos048.htm

Expected to grow at 12% with a median earnings of just under 60k.

Biologists

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos047.htm

Expected to grow at 21% mostly due to biochemistry but every sub field has at least a 12% growth rate which outpaces the national average. Median earnings of 82k

Atmospheric scientists! SUP!

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos051.htm

15% growth with a median income of 80k. MORE than a fucking financial planner, bitches.

Chemists

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos049.htm#projections_data

First stagnant field we've come across. Only 3% growth (they should go into biochem, IMO). Median earnings of 66k. At least they're not poor.

Environmental Scientists

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos311.htm#projections_data

28% job growth in the next decade. Pretty damn huge. ONLY make 60k though.

Geologists/Hydrologists

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos312.htm

18% Growth - median of 80k

Physicists and Astronomers

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos052.htm#projections_data

16% Growth, 100k median income.



What exactly is the jury out on? STEM fields are not for everyone but no field is. Its damn clear to me that they are some of the best - if not THE best - careers to pursue.

[MannyIsGod]

In case you want some comparisons to population growth and a bit of info on methodology:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/oco2003.htm

Basically it states an increase in the labor force of 8% over the next decade.

[florige]

They also are the fields that pretty much guarantee a salary somewhere between the 50k-60k range upon graduation with a BS. Basically if you want to make REAL money right after college you might as well start making analytical Calculus your friend. Anything else pretty much is a crap shoot.

[DarrinS]

President Obama had a town hall meeting at Facebook's headquarters last week and said that he wanted to encourage females and minorities to pursue STEM disciplines





Is there really a lack of women and minorities studying STEM disciplines? Generally speaking, is there a lack of "diversity" on college campuses these days? If you walked on to the UTSA campus today, you would think the endangered species is the white, male.

[DarrinS]

For the record, I think that PEOPLE (not just certain groups of people) should be encouraged to study these fields and that these fields will continue to offer good careers for the forseeable future, particularly engineering and medicine.

[coyotes_geek]

Is there really a lack of women and minorities studying STEM disciplines?

Women - Yes.
Black/Hispanic minorities - Yes.
Asian/Indian minorities - No.

[Drachen]

Is there really a lack of women and minorities studying STEM disciplines? Generally speaking, is there a lack of "diversity" on college campuses these days? If you walked on to the UTSA campus today, you would think the endangered species is the white, male.

I have not seen an old old wooden ship at the UTSA campus.

/lame joke

seriously though, using one local example in a predominately hispanic city is pretty bad. Another issue with that is how much of this hypothetical walk is done through the engineering building? Or are you just hypothetically hanging in the sombrilla?

[101A]

My wife is a 43 year old Professor of Biochemistry (Ph.D. Texas A&M, 1995); works at a 15,000 student State University.

She is tenured.

Salary = ~$70,000; Full professors at this University, with 20 years in are 6-figure.

Science doesn't increase or decrease her salary; the professors have a union (APSCUF); so ALL profs make the same; I have tried to explain to the Science professors that they are getting screwed in this deal; but they don't get how they are more rare (and valuable) than an English Education professor. The high school science teachers in our district ALL out earn her.

Regardless; most of them do what they do because they like/love it. Most made a choice to NOT go to medical school after undergraduate work - because they wanted to do research. As it turns out, at least at this school, with full teaching loads, they spend most all of their time (not hyperbole; my wife works a 90 - 100 hour week) teaching/grading/counseling, etc..... research, such as it is, is accomplished during the summer/X-Mas break WITHOUT PAY. My wife has a 300K grant, but she does not pay herself a dime out of it during the summer; she spends the money on research assistants, equipment and supplies.

Most (but not all) of her good students go on to Medical School; a few get the disease and go into graduate school (which are filled with Oriental students who get educated, many returning from whence they came). The PI's here like them because they work VERY long hours, for very little money before they earn their degrees. The typical American, even the good ones, have trouble competing; although some do (but not as many as 20 years ago).

Just my 2 cents.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Is there really a lack of women and minorities studying STEM disciplines? Generally speaking, is there a lack of "diversity" on college campuses these days? If you walked on to the UTSA campus today, you would think the endangered species is the white, male.

:rolleyes

[rjv]

My wife is a 43 year old Professor of Biochemistry (Ph.D. Texas A&M, 1995); works at a 15,000 student State University.

She is tenured.

Salary = ~$70,000; Full professors at this University, with 20 years in are 6-figure.

Science doesn't increase or decrease her salary; the professors have a union (APSCUF); so ALL profs make the same; I have tried to explain to the Science professors that they are getting screwed in this deal; but they don't get how they are more rare (and valuable) than an English Education professor. The high school science teachers in our district ALL out earn her.

Regardless; most of them do what they do because they like/love it. Most made a choice to NOT go to medical school after undergraduate work - because they wanted to do research. As it turns out, at least at this school, with full teaching loads, they spend most all of their time (not hyperbole; my wife works a 90 - 100 hour week) teaching/grading/counseling, etc..... research, such as it is, is accomplished during the summer/X-Mas break WITHOUT PAY. My wife has a 300K grant, but she does not pay herself a dime out of it during the summer; she spends the money on research assistants, equipment and supplies.

Most (but not all) of her good students go on to Medical School; a few get the disease and go into graduate school (which are filled with Oriental students who get educated, many returning from whence they came). The PI's here like them because they work VERY long hours, for very little money before they earn their degrees. The typical American, even the good ones, have trouble competing; although some do (but not as many as 20 years ago).

Just my 2 cents.

my brother went through hell as a PhD student (biochemistry). had an advisor from hell, worked for a prof who manipulated his research to keep his grant. then he went into R&D (bristol-myers squib outside princeton)and ran into more fraud, discrimination, nepotism, politics and you name it. somewhere in there was time for actual science but it was not enough to keep him there. he now teaches at a college in jersey and has sworn off R&D for life.

i kept it at a thesis and went into the health sector immediately. it's not perfect but better than the research world.

and then there are d.o.d contracts-and that is a whole different universe entirely.

[rjv]

:rolleyes

darrin thinks that the white male is the most suffered species ever to roam the earth.

[DarrinS]

darrin thinks that the white male is the most suffered species ever to roam the earth.


Not so. I just think diversification, as a goal, is silly. It's like saying you want to diversify a basketball team. I just want the best players.

[MannyIsGod]

Darrin are you white?

[rjv]

Not so. I just think diversification, as a goal, is silly. It's like saying you want to diversify a basketball team. I just want the best players.


using a basketball team as an analogy though seems ineffective as with basketball we are referring to physical attributes and not much beyond that. our job sector is only very rarely based on such limited skill sets and physical traits.

even then, even in basketball there has to be some sort of 'diversity'- you can not just have a bunch of 7 footers on the team.

[The Reckoning]

id be satisfied with 60k a year...

[ElNono]

What exactly is the jury out on? STEM fields are not for everyone but no field is. Its damn clear to me that they are some of the best - if not THE best - careers to pursue.

Please, no offense Manny, but I'll take current numbers as opposed to projections, which rarely account for things such as outsourcing.

The reality of the situation is that other countries that have a 1/3 of the cost of living and educational costs and are also investing in this stuff.

[MannyIsGod]

The median income numbers are current. If you can provide me with any data to contradict what I posted then feel free but as yet I've seen nothing to support that studying a science is anything but a good career choice.

The reality is what the facts say the reality is. Jobs are definitely being outsourced, but some of the only areas where jobs are actually being created here in the United States are the STEM fields.

I get it, science jobs are in danger of being exported but not finance jobs? :rolleyes

[Winehole23]

id be satisfied with 60k a year...Money won't buy you happiness but it does ease the nerves, eh?

[The Reckoning]

Money won't buy you happiness but it does ease the nerves, eh?


exactly. it helps me focus on the more important things in life.

"In order to be happy, a person must earn two pennies, one to buy bread and another to buy a lily."

[Winehole23]

The reality of the situation is that other countries that have a 1/3 of the cost of living and educational costs and are also investing in this stuff.While we continue to throw away lives and treasure on bootless, militarily unwinnable wars which are mainly effective in prolonging the humanitarian emergencies they are supposed to alleviate.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/events/docs/A%20National%20Strategic%20Narrative.pdfPossibly related?

[Winehole23]

(indigestion)

[DarrinS]

Darrin are you white?



If I have to check one of those boxes on a census form, I suppose that is the closest description.


But if I'm in the hospital and the doctor walks in, I'm don't concern myself with their race or gender -- only that they are good at what they do.

[MannyIsGod]

The difference is that changes made to correct societal conditions that were placed by segregation and racism do care about race or gender for obvious reasons.

You also don't understand what its like to grow up as a child of color and not see role models or even examples in these fields. It matters.

[mouse]

You also don't understand what its like to grow up as a child of color and not see role models or even examples in these fields. It matters.

That may explain the shortage of Black Hockey players.

[DarrinS]

You also don't understand what its like to grow up as a child of color and not see role models or even examples in these fields. It matters.


You didn't grow up watching the Cosby Show?

[ChumpDumper]

Cliff Huxtable wasn't a weatherman.

[TE]

You guys make 2-page threads shit with pointless arguments.

[DarrinS]

Cliff Huxtable wasn't a weatherman.


He was an obstetrician and his wife was an attorney.

Tony Perkins and Al Roker were/are meteorologists.

[ElNono]

Is that why you're in IT? :lol

Personally, I'm glad you can't outsource a TS/SCI...

I'm in it because I like it... and can get away with paying the bills off it...

But I can't say outsourcing hasn't affected our business... luckily for us, some of out customers that tried outsourcing ended up getting bit with poor service and came right back later on... but overall it isn't a pretty picture.

[ElNono]

The median income numbers are current. If you can provide me with any data to contradict what I posted then feel free but as yet I've seen nothing to support that studying a science is anything but a good career choice.

The reality is what the facts say the reality is. Jobs are definitely being outsourced, but some of the only areas where jobs are actually being created here in the United States are the STEM fields.

I get it, science jobs are in danger of being exported but not finance jobs? :rolleyes

To be honest, no, finance jobs are not in danger of being exported because locality is key in that field and the US has the biggest financial market in the world.

But I'm no expert on the matter at hand at all, so I'll take your word for it. Other than my first hand experience with things like outsourcing, I really don't have anything 'at stake' in this discussion.

[MannyIsGod]

Why is locality key in finance? I would imagine finance - basically the analyzing of information and providing expert advice - is something that could be done ANYWHERE. I see absolutely no reason why it would require you to be in a specific location.

Nono I just simply take issue with the main points raised in the blog you posted and the links contained with in it. The title of this thread is flat out wrong. Science jobs are not lousy and are among the best out there in anyway you measure it. They have lower unemployment, they make just as much and in most cases more money than most other jobs, and they are projected to grow at great rates.

If science jobs are lousy then I don't understand what is good? There will be jobs in those fields lost to outsourcing, but I don't think theres a single field out there immune to that situation and STEM jobs are going to be much safer than pretty much every alternative.

[Nbadan]

A science job is job security, even better than a Masters in most cases...

Manny's obviously never heard of Wall Street, you gotta go where the money is and it aint in Kansas, and never will be..

[LnGrrrR]

Wrong thread

[ChumpDumper]

He was an obstetrician and his wife was an attorney.They're sitcom characters, dumbass.

[florige]

I'm in it because I like it... and can get away with paying the bills off it...

But I can't say outsourcing hasn't affected our business... luckily for us, some of out customers that tried outsourcing ended up getting bit with poor service and came right back later on... but overall it isn't a pretty picture.



Do you have a computer science degree?

[Nbadan]

You have a limited number of years to prove yourself in any profession, just so happens that if you prove yourself in one of the finer sciences, and yes bio-tech is a science (but not Meteorology).....your gonna make big bucks....it's a tough world to make big bucks in...

[LnGrrrR]

Do you have a computer science degree?

That's what I'm working on... halfway there. :p

[Halberto]

I don't think many science majors are accepting finance-based jobs because they pay better, I think it has more to do with the job market. Also, I'd like some examples of the jobs physicists have that earn $100k. That sounds pretty skewed....

[ElNono]

Do you have a computer science degree?

No

[ElNono]

Why is locality key in finance? I would imagine finance - basically the analyzing of information and providing expert advice - is something that could be done ANYWHERE. I see absolutely no reason why it would require you to be in a specific location.

Nono I just simply take issue with the main points raised in the blog you posted and the links contained with in it. The title of this thread is flat out wrong. Science jobs are not lousy and are among the best out there in anyway you measure it. They have lower unemployment, they make just as much and in most cases more money than most other jobs, and they are projected to grow at great rates.

If science jobs are lousy then I don't understand what is good? There will be jobs in those fields lost to outsourcing, but I don't think theres a single field out there immune to that situation and STEM jobs are going to be much safer than pretty much every alternative.

I didn't come up with the title. I copy/pasted the story, including the title straight from Slashdot... As I said earlier, I'm just the messenger

[boutons_deux]

Women Surpass Men In Advanced Degrees For First Time

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/26/women-surpass-men-in-adva_n_853795.html?view=print


Working women better educated than men

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/26/us-census-education-idUSTRE73P75520110426?feedType=RSS&feedName=domesticNews

but white men pay the women 25-30% less than men for same job.


Then we have black man sucking up to racist/misogynist conservatives/Repugs:

Rep. Allen West: American Men are Being Neutered

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/04/allen-west-33-percent-budget-goes-planned-parenthood

[boutons_deux]

Falling Demand for Brains?


the college wage premium, after rising sharply in the 80s and 90s, has stagnated lately. Indeed. Here’s the ratio of earnings for full-time working men with college degrees versus those with high school, from the Census:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_VgJQTp0Bsf0/TXKyYAGbPHI/AAAAAAA
AASs/Kls9nK5-TKI/chsratio.jpg

how we have a decent society if and when even highly educated workers can’t command a middle-class income.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/05/falling-demand-for-brains/



The Overselling of Education

http://www.epi.org/analysis_and_opinion/entry/the_overselling_of_education/

[DarkReign]

My cousin has a master's in chemical engineering.

After his research grant ran out, he couldnt find work, so now he works for contractor at GM making pretty good cash, but waaaaay under his education level.

Take it for what it is.

[velik_m]

R&D is where the money is. And software development is the cheapest R&D out there.