Initial Reaction: Spurs @ Grizzlies - Game 4

[timvp]

I've witnessed my share of Spurs losses. However, I've never watched a more depressing loss than Monday night's Game 4. After playing decently in the first half, the Spurs fell apart in the third quarter. By midway through that period, the game began to feel like a funeral -- not only for this season, but for this era. By the time the final buzzer sounded on the 104-86 Grizzlies victory, the only emotion left for Spurs fans to feel was sadness.

-Tim Duncan just didn't have it. The juice he played with in the first three games was absent. Simply put, he played like a 35-year-old with a ton of mileage on his wheels. Hopefully it was an aberration ... but Father Time is an unforgiving bastard.

-I never thought I'd see it. But for a few moments in the third quarter, it appeared as if Manu Ginobili let up. The never say never, relentless, win at all costs Manu Ginobili we love said never. The uninspired play around him and the throbbing right elbow had to play a part ... but it didn't make it any less stunning to behold.

-Tony Parker resurrected his scoring output. He didn't miss in the first half on his way to racking up 19 points. However, his floor game was still in shambles; if he wasn't turning it over, he was failing to make the right read. When Parker's scoring cooled in the second half, the Spurs had no way to make up for his lack of production.

-I don't even want to think about how much money the Spurs owe Richard Jefferson. His performance in this must-win game was a disgrace. When the Spurs needed shooters to step up, Jefferson was instead finding reasons not to shoot. When the Spurs desperately needed offense, Jefferson became more passive than ever. Defensively, he was a 98.6-degree void of nothingness.

-I'm extremely disappointed in George Hill. I've been a believer in his talent over the years but I'm really having second thoughts now. His offense was a mess: passive at times, poor decisions throughout and just very un-postseason-like play. Defensively, he was even worse. He was jumping for pump-fakes, taking horrible angles on closeouts and getting destroyed by any quick move coming his way. Just a miserable, miserable outing.

-Spurs fans begged for Tiago Splitter. Spurs fans got Tiago Splitter in Game 4. Pop made the adjustment of giving DeJuan Blair's minutes to Splitter. In the first half, it really seemed to work. Unfortunately, Splitter played a role in the team's collapsed in the third quarter. It was like he didn't have much chemistry with the rest of his teammates. Oh wait, that was the reality of the situation.

-In another mid-series adjustment between Game 3 and Game 4, Pop altered the rotation to remove Gary Neal. After the debacle to begin the third quarter, Pop called on Neal ... but it was obviously too late to expect him to do much. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Neal's minutes in Game 5.

-Matt Bonner played another poor road game in the playoffs. I can't say I'm surprised. He missed both of his three-pointers and got destroyed on the defensive end. Absolutely annihilated. The fight we saw out of him in the two home games must have remained in San Antonio.

-I'm really disappointed in Pop. First of all, he panicked. The Spurs didn't need wholesale changes to win this series. By better executing their gameplan that they utilized in the first three games, I thought the Spurs had a good shot to beat these Grizzlies. But Pop, going against what he always preaches, blamed his hammer for the rock not splitting.

I don't think it was wrong to play Splitter, however Pop did a poor job of putting him in positions to succeed -- especially in the second half. Duncan and Splitter played together in the regular season for all of 35 minutes. That lineup that started the second half played 14 minutes together in the regular season. To expect for Splitter to suddenly know how to play with the rest of the starters in a pressure-packed playoff game is unfair to everyone involved.

Removing Neal from the rotation was a bad move in hindsight. Jefferson and Hill received more minutes as a result and they were arguably the two worst players on the floor. It didn't make much sense to begin with considering that the Spurs were in desperate need of shooting and Neal has been a big game shooter all season long.

Pop has pushed the Spurs to four NBA championships. On Monday night, he pushed the Spurs off a cliff. More damning, he pushed this golden era of Spurs Basketball to the edge of the precipice.

[ducks]

hill and rj need to go

maybe rj if he is still a spur will be more aggressive

[baseline bum]

Good luck moving Dick. $40 fucking million for this shit.... unbelievable. I never figured Jefferson would be Steve Smith the sequel when the Spurs made the trade. Whottt was the only one who called it.

[ElNono]

Thanks for the writeup, LJ :tu

[jaffies]

Dammit.

I was hoping to open the thread and read this:


Pop sucks.






that is all.

[DPG21920]

Well it was a case of counter balance. On one end, TP scored and we got Tiago. On the other end, turnovers and rebounding were issues.

Every good was canceled out in another incomplete all around game.

[Libri]

-I never thought I'd see it. But for a few moments in the third quarter, it appeared as if Manu Ginobili let up. The never say never, relentless, win at all costs Manu Ginobili we love said never. The uninspired play around him and the throbbing right elbow had to play a part ... but it didn't make it any less stunning to behold.

What do you think of Manu quiting playing defense late in the fourth quarter? I can't blame him because it was a lost cause but it's something I have never seen from him before, even when the team is losing.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Good luck moving Dick. $40 fucking million for this shit.... unbelievable. I never figured Jefferson would be Steve Smith the sequel when the Spurs made the trade. Whottt was the only one who called it.

Yeah, but the worst part of it is that's all self-inflicted. It was clear he was a mistake last year, and we go out and fucking extend him :td

Another boneheaded move from Pop.

[xellos88330]

Nice write up.

[ducks]

I thought father time caught up with manu

I trade rj for jr smith

[baseline bum]

Yeah, but the worst part of it is that's all self-inflicted. It was clear he was a mistake last year, and we go out and fucking extend him :td

Another boneheaded move from Pop.

Damn, I hate being right about not wanting him back even if there was no one else coming in last summer.

[AnthonyM]

I think that if you told me Splitter was going to play before the game, I would have been all for it.

But if Splitter playing came with a complete changing of the rotation involving Neal and Blair both being completely taken out, I would have said that playing Splitter at the cost of a major rotation change like that isn't worth it when we only lost the last game by 3 points.

Like timvp said, Splitter just didn't know what to do with that lineup out there in the second half and I think that cost us. Sticking to the same rotation and preaching the gameplan harder probably would have been better for us.

But, there was alot wrong with the team tonight than just that.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I thought father time caught up with manu

I trade rj for jr smith

ducks, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you need to go get laid. Tony Parker has gotten smoked by Mike freakin' Conley all series.

Father time didn't catch up with Manu. A foolish decision by Pop to play him in the last game of the season did him in.

[baseline bum]

Spurs need to trade for Walton and hope it jump starts Dick's battery.

[crc21209]

RJ was fine the first 2-3 games of the series, but today he just didnt show up, along with Hill, Bonner, and Neal. What's new? The Spurs lost this game because of all the boneheaded plays and turnovers. They're playing with no sense of purpose, everything is rushed and panicked....

[joeyjfive]

I never post but feel like I have to. This game hurt like no other, to see them just completely give up out there. I'm hoping the Spurs atleast don't lose in front of their home crowd.

[jag]

Hell of a write-up

[timvp]

ducks, enough is wrong without having to rile up the CoM.

Thanks.

[Chomag]

I know I have been one to be critical over Manu at times, but to see him give up is something I thought I would have never seen. Watching him just stand there and watch Battier set up for 5 minutes for that corner three was heartbreaking.

[AnthonyM]

It just doesn't make sense that we changed the gameplan that much when we're arguably a Battier and Randolph three away from being up 3-0 despite how poorly we played in the first three games of the series.

[NewJerSpur]

Said it in the Game Blog, but Jefferson would've thrown it down getting all the way to the rim a few years ago rather than the weakness he threw up at the basket in the 1st quarter over the backboard out of bounds while he try to scream for a foul....too bad that set the tone for his game. If he plays like that early in Game 5, I won't care if they go with the 3-guard lineup; at least the smaller guys will get it up on the rim. Hill is playing WAY too tentative, like he doesn't want to make mistakes.....we need him to attack the basket with reckless abandon (minus thje reckless TO) but it looks like RJ's going to continue to abandon his recklessness when the game's on the line.

Again, happy B-Day man, sorry for the results.

[crc21209]

Pop's "strategy" on defending Conley completely sucks ass too. Just giving him all the space in the world coming off screens giving him open J after open J....

[Harry Callahan]

I've been following this team for 32 years and that third quarter is at the top of my list for a lack of heart and effort by the Spurs.

I think this group knows it can't do it anymore in the playoffs. It was sad to watch, but not totally surprising.

It's embarrasing to be showed up by the Vancouver/Memphis Grizzlies. One of the worst franchises in sports for most of its existence. For all the accolades those guys will get from the uninformed media, they still gave away Pau Gasol for pennies on the dollar (Marc Gasol included) and totally wiffed on the second pick in the draft two years ago. Nobody wanted Zach Randolph because he was a dog and a punk for eight or nine years in this league. Memphis was fortunate he was in a contract run and was looking at his career totaling going down the tubes without a serious attitude adjustment. Memphis was literally the last chance saloon for him (the Clippers didn't even want him).

I guess I have to remember Tim Duncan is 35 years old and is a shell of the player he once was. He is still the Spurs best big, but if you can't win a single matchup on the floor, you are in trouble. I wish the 25 year old Tim was out there because he would have made mincemeat out of that opponent, but that is not the reality of it all.

The next 3-4 years may not be a lot of fun, unfortunately.

[spurs1990]

First props to all who watched this game in its entirety. I stayed away from the tv hoping to see a win on the scoreboard afterwards.

We had the league in our hands through 90 percent of the regular season, projected to win damn near 70 at the all-star break. Then Duncan goes down, the Spurs collapse in several games, and limp into the postseason.

Now we have to assess how much Ginobili's elbow injury in that meaningless Phoenix game has affected the Spurs chances of winning at least one of the 3 losses in this series.

There's a still another game to be played and along with it the chance exists that all this talk of imminent defeat will have been greatly exagerated....

Either way I'll definitely be tuning in on Wednesday unlike tonight.

[TD 21]

It did officially end tonight, as opposed to '07 or '08, as some say. The reason it ended tonight is because the coach and the players knew it. It dawned on them that they more than likely weren't going to win this series and even if they did, they have no chance to win the championship or a championship in what's left of the Duncan era. And as soon as that realization hit them, the game, series, season and era, was over. Because of that, I don't even think they'll win game five.

There is no realistic trade that can vault them back into contention. Unlike '08, when the core was still good enough, the core is no longer good enough and even if they were, they're not surrounded by enough championship caliber role players. Also, they're not capable of staying healthy and being in peak form come the playoffs, no matter how much rest they're given during the regular season.

[Mugen]

that must have been tough to write. Sorry your birthday wasn't better.

The Splitter/Blair switch was the only adjustment Pop needed to make. That combined with TP's regression to the mean would have gotten the Spurs back into this series. I'm just surprised that only the least likely of the two occurred tonight.

[ElNono]

It was the case of giving RJ more minutes expecting him to give you a better offensive production since he played decent offense in the first 3 games, and RJ completely melting down... but we'll give him 3 more seasons to see if he figures it out...

[J_Paco]

Yeah, but the worst part of it is that's all self-inflicted. It was clear he was a mistake last year, and we go out and fucking extend him

Another boneheaded move from Pop.

But, but, but, he was our best option at the time.....................

[ElNono]

Pop's "strategy" on defending Conley completely sucks ass too. Just giving him all the space in the world coming off screens giving him open J after open J....

We're giving Conley the 'Rondo' treatment, and he's nowhere near as bad a shooter...

[Pauleta14]

The blame is entirely on the role players and Pop & RC !!!

Even with their "small" production, with a decent supporting cast, we would be 3-1 and not 1-3 ...

RJ is even worst than last year

Hill is mentaly so weak it's scary

McDyess is too old (and not a center)

Bonner is ... Bonner (shouldn't be allowed to play in playoff)

Neal and Splitter are rookies (can't really blame them)

Blair is overweight (unacceptable for a professional) and have the lowest IQ I've seen

Thanks again Pop for game 1 (the difference in the series)

FU RC &Pop for doing nothing before the trade deadline, when OBVIOUSLY we needed something...

I'm ok with Timmy's, his D can be enough, Manu and Tony 's production should be enough , but you could see in their eyes they don't trust their teamates...

[Chomag]

Pop's "strategy" on defending Conley completely sucks ass too. Just giving him all the space in the world coming off screens giving him open J after open J....

He did the same strategy against Rando in the last game against Boston and Rando killed them. I have no idea why Pop thought that was successful enough strategy to use here.

Just about any player in the NBA can make those shots if not pressured.

[crc21209]

We're giving Conley the 'Rondo' treatment, and he's nowhere near as bad a shooter...

Exactly. It's fucking annoying, the guy can shoot....

[Spursfanfromafar]

Pop put his trust in two players all along the past two seasons. He called George Hill his favorite for his ability to play defense and be aggressive when needed. Atleast he hoped so that George Hill is the second coming of a more heralded Avery Johnson. Only George Hill is still immature, inconsistent and on and off. Pop trusted Jefferson to be able to transmogrify his game in season 2. RJ did a bit of that, by upping his FG% - especially 3pt FG% in the season and being in position to maximise his output based on touches designed for him. But that was all fool's gold. As the season progressed, RJ regressed, reduced to a 3 pt jump shooter from the corners on offense and persistent inconsistency on defense.

As regards the frontcourt, Pop put too much emphasis on tailoring the game to the abilities of Matt Bonner and DeJuan Blair. The former for 3pt shooting and "floor spreading" and the latter for managing to fit smoothly into a fast paced game. Only Bonner's notorious post season frailities have been proven yet again while the latter has been confused to the extent of getting out of the rotation almost.

With the role players hardly fitting their respective roles and 2 of the top 3 in relative decline, the onus was on Tony Parker to carry the unit, which he had done quite so often in the later half of the regular season. Inexplicably, Parker found kryptonite in Mike Conley in Round 1 and has been reduced to a turnover generator and a passive version of himself.

It will take a miracle for the Spurs to get over these weaknesses and mental hurdles to even win game 5 let alone think of doing a Red Sox against the Yankees in 2004.

I suspect, we are in for a very interesting offseason.

[Pauleta14]

hill and rj need to go

maybe rj if he is still a spur will be more aggressive


why would he suddenly be??

+ the main pb with him is about talent...

[crc21209]

He did the same strategy against Rando in the last game against Boston and Rando killed them. I have no idea why Pop thought that was successful enough strategy to use here.

Just about any player in the NBA can make those shots if not pressured.

Believe me, I know he used the strategy against Rondo, I was there live at the AT&T Center for the game, and I fucking hated the strategy after Rondo drained his first 5 jumpers...

[Marcus Bryant]

The weird thing is that Pop turned into an average SpursTalk poster in game 4 instead of sticking with the rotation in games 1-3 that had them in every game at the end.

But for (I know, cry me a river) Manu being out in game 1, that rotation, at worst, would be 2-2 in this series after tonight, IMO.

[Pauleta14]

We should trade Hill while there are still teams that think highly of him!

Maybe we can get rid of RJ (the top priority) in a package with Hill and/or Neal...

[ElNono]

I suspect, we are in for a very interesting offseason.

You mean frustrating. With a lockout looming, and the prospect of Timmy calling it quits while being unable to move RJ or Bonner...

[Cane]

Tbh the Spurs ran into shitty luck. The Spurs were healthy throughout the season until the end when Duncan hurt his ankle (hurt it in the playoffs again), Manu with his obvious injury, Dice tweaked his knee several times and got that stinger in game 3, and Parker's gone fishing already. The Grizz smelled blood from the get go.

We all know that the Spurs couldn't compete in the playoffs if their starters weren't healthy especially after getting swept by the Suns last year. The Spurs don't have the talent to make up for an unhealthy and declining Big 3.

Parker hasn't been able to carry the team like you'd expect the youngest and healthiest member of the Big 3 to do. Although he shot well he had 7 costly turnovers and just 1 assist. Conley had the opposite with 1 turnover, 7 assists. He's been the biggest disappointment for me in the series.

Spurs just weren't the same after Duncan and Manu got hurt.

[ElNono]

But for (I know, cry me a river) Manu being out in game 1, that rotation, at worst, would be 2-2 in this series after tonight, IMO.

I agree that he panicked. And I also agree that leaving Manu out of game 1, after Manu asked to play, only reflects the arrogance of thinking this was going to be a cakewalk, or that at least that potentially dropping a game would not be a series-changer...

[DPG21920]

The weird thing is that Pop turned into an average SpursTalk poster in game 4 instead of sticking with the rotation in games 1-3 that had them in every game at the end.

But for (I know, cry me a river) Manu being out in game 1, that rotation, at worst, would be 2-2 in this series after tonight, IMO.

I disagree. No rotation caused the epic meltdown that you saw tonight. Nothing he did was too different until the 2nd half. He saw what was going on. MEM took SA's best shot of the series in the first half and it wasn't that good of a shot. I saw it too.

With they way they played, and how great MEM played, it was going to be 3-1 regardless.

[4>0rings]

Tbh the Spurs ran into shitty luck. I hope to God Pop chokes on that thought with his $50 steak dinner. It wasn't luck Pop when it happens 4 years in a row.

[DPG21920]

Pop did panic. That was the first thing I said when I saw Tiago.

[Spursfanfromafar]

You mean frustrating. With a lockout looming, and the prospect of Timmy calling it quits while being unable to move RJ or Bonner...

Indeed. :depressed

Although, trade wise, the FO would try to sweeten the deals of RJ/ Bonner by adding the McDyess expiring contract to it. Too early to talk about it, but I suspect the Cavs/ Clippers/ other desperadoes could possibly be tempted.

[ElNono]

Spurs just weren't the same after Duncan and Manu got hurt.

Excuses, tbh. Memphis was already tanking before Manu got hurt, so they definitely knew what out weaknesses were...

[Cane]

Excuses, tbh. Memphis was already tanking before Manu got hurt, so they definitely knew what out weaknesses were...

Of course they're excuses, but tbh the Spurs haven't been a competitive playoffs team with a declining and an unhealthy Big 3. They got swept by the Suns last season and got abused by the likes of Jared Dudley and Dragic. Lost to the Mavs with Manu out and Duncan gassed. Both Dice and Duncan were hobbling before Memphis tanked and it just paid off even moreso when Ginobili went down. Definitely give plenty of credit for the Grizz for realizing the match up though.

Spurs looked like they were finally going to finish with a healthy regular season but they got hurt at a terrible time and most of their legs are old to make things worse. And wtf happened to Parker?

[baseline bum]

You mean frustrating. With a lockout looming, and the prospect of Timmy calling it quits while being unable to move RJ or Bonner...

The rebuild is going to get really ugly if there is no season to tank and the Spurs thus get stuck drafting at 30 for a second year in a row.

[phxspurfan]

Wow, meltdown city. Glad I was on a plane and didn't get a chance to watch this one.


Spurs in seven.

[Marcus Bryant]

I disagree. No rotation caused the epic meltdown that you saw tonight. Nothing he did was too different until the 2nd half. He saw what was going on. MEM took SA's best shot of the series in the first half and it wasn't that good of a shot. I saw it too.

With they way they played, and how great MEM played, it was going to be 3-1 regardless.

Pop fucking with the rotation was a function of Manu being out for game 1. At worst it would be 2-2 after tonight.

[TD 21]

Tbh the Spurs ran into shitty luck. The Spurs were healthy throughout the season until the end when Duncan hurt his ankle (hurt it in the playoffs again), Manu with his obvious injury, Dice tweaked his knee several times and got that stinger in game 3, and Parker's gone fishing already. The Grizz smelled blood from the get go.

We all know that the Spurs couldn't compete in the playoffs if their starters weren't healthy especially after getting swept by the Suns last year. The Spurs don't have the talent to make up for an unhealthy and declining Big 3.

Parker hasn't been able to carry the team like you'd expect the youngest and healthiest member of the Big 3 to do. Although he shot well he had 7 costly turnovers and just 1 assist. Conley had the opposite with 1 turnover, 7 assists. He's been the biggest disappointment for me in the series.

Spurs just weren't the same after Duncan and Manu got hurt.

It's time to face reality. This is the fourth straight playoffs they've either had key injuries or flat out looked worn down . . . and all occurred before the Conference Finals and this time, no one can say anyone was overworked during the regular season. So, if they can't hold up for a round or two, how could they for four? It's no longer just bad luck. They're no longer good enough to even pretend and they're not going to be for the remainder of the Duncan era. And that's what we saw tonight, was them figuring that out. Or accepting it.

[crc21209]

The Spurs MUST come out on Wednesday the exact same way the Nuggets are playing the Thunder right now, with loads of energy, heart, and passion.....

[Pauleta14]

Pop did panic. That was the first thing I said when I saw Tiago.

I don't know if it hasn't more to do with Blair sucking...

[Nathan89]

Pop did panic. That was the first thing I said when I saw Tiago.

Does that mean you think he made that decision during the game?

[DPG21920]

Does that mean you think he made that decision during the game?

No. It means that when he made the decision, it was out of panic.

[Cane]

It's time to face reality. This is the fourth straight playoffs they've either had key injuries or flat out looked worn down . . . and all occurred before the Conference Finals and this time, no one can say anyone was overworked during the regular season. So, if they can't hold up for a round or two, how could they for four? It's no longer just bad luck. They're no longer good enough to even pretend and they're not going to be for the remainder of the Duncan era. And that's what we saw tonight, was them figuring that out. Or accepting it.


Imo Manu's elbow injury on one of the first plays of the last game of the reg season was more bad luck than not. Likewise with Duncan facing his only significant injury towards the end of the season.

But yea a point I've repeated is that the Spurs aren't even a competitive playoffs team with both a declining and unhealthy Big 3. Also Parker's been incredibly bad.

[ElNono]

Of course they're excuses, but tbh the Spurs haven't been a competitive playoffs team with a declining and an unhealthy Big 3. They got swept by the Suns last season and got abused by the likes of Jared Dudley and Dragic. Lost to the Mavs with Manu out and Duncan gassed. Both Dice and Duncan were hobbling before Memphis tanked and it just paid off even moreso when Ginobili went down. Definitely give plenty of credit for the Grizz for realizing the match up though.

Spurs looked like they were finally going to finish with a healthy regular season but they got hurt at a terrible time and most of their legs are old to make things worse. And wtf happened to Parker?

When you're playing veterans, injuries are part of it... but Manu or Tim were far from the problem in this series IMO. It's the softie shitheads we surrounded them with since Bowen/Oberto called it quits. Dice and Neal were the only guys that had right attitude, but one is a rook and the other is showing his mileage...

I don't know what happened with Tony. Maybe he's not hungry anymore.

[ElNono]

Look who's cooking us in Memphis... Darrel Arthur, Mike Conley Jr, freaking Vazquez looked like a possessed man... Last season was Dudley, Channing Frye and ponytail douche... In close games those guys stepped up and made the difference... we're still waiting for Hill to call a play before there are 5 seconds left on the clock, or RJ to take a mid-air contorted jumper because the play broke down 3 times... and for Bonner to hit a 3 to save his life...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

No. It means that when he made the decision, it was out of panic.

Giving Blair's minutes to Splitter in the first half wasn't panic. That change should have happened after game 1 when it was clear this wasn't the right matchups for Blair to excel, or even be serviceable.

Pop trotting Splitter out as the starting center at the start of the third, that was flat out panic.

[ALVAREZ6]

Look who's cooking us in Memphis... Darrel Arthur, Mike Conley Jr, freaking Vazquez looked like a possessed man... Last season was Dudley, Channing Frye and ponytail douche... In close games those guys stepped up and made the difference... we're still waiting for Hill to call a play before there are 5 seconds left on the clock, or RJ to take a mid-air contorted jumper because the play broke down 3 times... and for Bonner to hit a 3 to save his life...

:tu

Convinces me that the Spurs need to scrap their style and just go for straight ballers. Fuck class, that shit only works when you have the best of the best. The Spurs need some Tony Allens of their own, types of players that won't back down and hide. RJ and George Hill, given that they both have great athletic ability and basketball frames for their respective positions, are nothing compared to their potential. They're 2 of the most inconsistent pussies in the world and need to be shipped the fuck out of here. I'm pretty sure I could whoop the fuck out of George Hill with 2 broken fists.

I like Neal, it's only his first year and he should get better at a lot of the small things. He still shoots the ball with confidence, even with the adversity of the situation and also considering it was his first season, let alone play off, and he was taking some good shots tonight, whether or not they all went in.

RJ, Hill, and Bonner... please, GTFOutta here.

[peskypesky]

man, the Spurs really FUCKED up my birthday. god-damnit. if its not depressing enough get nearer to old age, they went and dropped a steaming stinky turd on the legacy of Spurs basketball. a night of disgrace & humiliation. Pop bears some blame, but lets face it, every single Spur, except for maybe Tiago Splitter, has been worse in the post-season than the regular season. Parker - garbage. RJ - garbage. Hill - garbage. Bonner - garbage. Manu - injured. Tim - old. Dice - garbage. Blair - ?.

what can you say? the Spurs suck. SUCK. Barkley, that ass, was right again.

[peskypesky]

Giving Blair's minutes to Splitter in the first half wasn't panic. That change should have happened after game 1 when it was clear this wasn't the right matchups for Blair to excel, or even be serviceable.

Pop trotting Splitter out as the starting center at the start of the third, that was flat out panic.

EXACTLY. Game 1 was when it became FUCKING OBVIOUS that we needed a BIG man like Tiago in there to deal with Gasol. Took Pop way too fucking long to see the obvious.

[awktalk]

EXACTLY. Game 1 was when it became FUCKING OBVIOUS that we needed a BIG man like Tiago in there to deal with Gasol. Took Pop way too fucking long to see the obvious.

Tiago waves hello (with his -14 dominance on the court tonight)

[Cessation]

lol at bonner lovers
lol 26% from 3 in the playoffs

[ElNono]

Tiago waves hello (with his -14 dominance on the court tonight)

But Tiago wasn't the problem, right? :rolleyes

[Cessation]

Did you notice the Turd Towers hardly playing anymore. You think pop finally realized they are worthless?

[NewJerSpur]

Did you notice the Turd Towers hardly playing anymore. You think pop finally realized they are worthless?

The thing particularly hurting Blair this time around is he's missing point blank layups/tip-ins which is normally his specialty on offense, either come from the weakside or off of the high PnR. Bonner made some timely baskets early in the game but the shot overall hasn't been there and it's made him (like many of the role players) hesitate to shoot. Guys have to realize that while it's good to move the ball around from one side of the court to the other someone has to shoot at some point because as the ball moves around and the possession goes deeper into the shotclock it puts more pressure on the guy who's eventually going to have to get it up and aids Memphis on defense (especially if the passes aren't on target/high percentage, which a good amount of the ones in Game 4 won't).

[mytespurs]

I felt so sure that the Spurs would win tonight....I was expecting them to be on the giving end of a blowout-not the receiving end! :p:

What a disappointment. :( It seems like the inevitable is finally coming upon us & it doesn't feel good....but there's also a glimmer of hope that the Spurs will shake whatever it is out of their systems and come up with a win on their homecourt wednesday-nuggets were on the brink & they won tonight, 76ers were on the brink Sunday and they eked out a win.....it just takes 1 win...no matter how big or small the margin......just 1 win.

[rmt]

Tiago waves hello (with his -14 dominance on the court tonight)

It's not Tiago - it's Pop with his arrogance, small ball, corporate knowledge, system. Don't even talk about +/-, especially since Bonner is the king of that stat.

[Obstructed_View]

Tiago waves hello (with his -14 dominance on the court tonight)

Just stop.

[Obstructed_View]

Giving Blair's minutes to Splitter in the first half wasn't panic. That change should have happened after game 1 when it was clear this wasn't the right matchups for Blair to excel, or even be serviceable.

Pop trotting Splitter out as the starting center at the start of the third, that was flat out panic.

The decision to play Splitter at all was panic, because he went against what he'd been saying all season long. If he believed it, then he panicked. If he was mad at Splitter for something, then he panicked.

Pop bringing out Splitter at the start of the third was brilliant. It could have saved the game for the Spurs but nobody showed up. They Grizzlies came out playing playoff speed and the Spurs didn't. Pop blaming Splitter for the run by the Grizzlies and subbing in Dice was panic.

He's been so badly outcoached for so long, it's actually sad to see.

[SenorSpur]

It did officially end tonight, as opposed to '07 or '08, as some say. The reason it ended tonight is because the coach and the players knew it. It dawned on them that they more than likely weren't going to win this series and even if they did, they have no chance to win the championship or a championship in what's left of the Duncan era. And as soon as that realization hit them, the game, series, season and era, was over. Because of that, I don't even think they'll win game five.

There is no realistic trade that can vault them back into contention. Unlike '08, when the core was still good enough, the core is no longer good enough and even if they were, they're not surrounded by enough championship caliber role players. Also, they're not capable of staying healthy and being in peak form come the playoffs, no matter how much rest they're given during the regular season.

^This

[objective]

Look who's cooking us in Memphis... Darrel Arthur, Mike Conley Jr, freaking Vazquez looked like a possessed man... Last season was Dudley, Channing Frye and ponytail douche... In close games those guys stepped up and made the difference... we're still waiting for Hill to call a play before there are 5 seconds left on the clock, or RJ to take a mid-air contorted jumper because the play broke down 3 times... and for Bonner to hit a 3 to save his life...

this is spot on.

These unproven, young, inexperienced players for Memphis are stepping the hell up.

And, they're not scared, unlike some Spurs we can think of.

Imagine that, roleplayers stepping up. It's such a strange thing. Spurs fans have been conditioned to accept excuses for their roleplayers stinking up the joint, making it a shock when another team's players do it. You all know the typical excuses, "But, Bonner didn't have Manu to open it up for him (2009)". "But, Bonner is best suited for 15 minutes a game!" "But, RJ is adjusting to his role. After a full year in the system, watch out!" "But, Roger Mason is out of position at point guard"

Please. Roleplayers step it up or they don't.

Memphis has roleplayers that so far have largely stepped it up, the Spurs haven't. No excuses.

[objective]

I would also add that the blaming of Splitter for the 3rd quarter collapse is a little exaggerated. I just re-watched the first 3 minutes of the 3rd, and it could hardly be blamed on him or his chemistry. Yes, he deserves criticism for his missed shot in the paint. But he wasn't the one bricking jumpers or passing the ball into a turnover like Tony (who has done it all series) or just dribbling a ball with elbows and wrists out of bounds like Hill.

I strongly suspect that McDyess in those three minutes would have ended in much the same way.

[Bukefal]

Such a good season down the drain, just like that. From day one of this season it felt so good, It felt like one more last time for this team to take a serious shot at the title,everything went well and what happens, getting beat by the Grizzlies!!! We, the fans were thinking about being possible to beat the Bulls and Celtics and Heat in the finals and even saying that with confidence, but they can't even get past the f*cking Grizzlies.

The Grizzlies with their confidence and their Swag, which they had from the moment they were intentionally tanking to play the Spurs, just came on court and crushed the Spurs just like that. It's over. There has to be a miracle for the Spurs to come back from 3-1 and even if they manage to fucking do it somehow, the next teams in line will be the Thunder and the Lakers, well I don't see these Spurs playing like this beating them, not even a chance.

Now, I don't like giving up and being all negative, but this time it's different, it feels different. Realistically there is no chance for the Spurs to get back, Im afraid it's over.

[ogait]

It did officially end tonight, as opposed to '07 or '08, as some say. The reason it ended tonight is because the coach and the players knew it. It dawned on them that they more than likely weren't going to win this series and even if they did, they have no chance to win the championship or a championship in what's left of the Duncan era. And as soon as that realization hit them, the game, series, season and era, was over. Because of that, I don't even think they'll win game five.

There is no realistic trade that can vault them back into contention. Unlike '08, when the core was still good enough, the core is no longer good enough and even if they were, they're not surrounded by enough championship caliber role players. Also, they're not capable of staying healthy and being in peak form come the playoffs, no matter how much rest they're given during the regular season.

I hope your wrong.

Not in the sense of wining championship because I never believed that in any point of the season.

But I really think there was no sudden realization on the team that they weren't good enough to win it all.

They already knew it was a long shot for them. Pop saying all season long that they were not the better team in the league despite their record was not just some go under the radar strategy, it was the true and he knew it.

And because of that I hope they keep figthing for the best possible outcome even if they know the ultimate goal won't be achieved.

[venitian navigator]

We still have not lost the series.
And I still have hope.

That said, the part I didn't like is pretending that this team, without bigs able to play in the paint (I mean expecially defense...), would have been able to win in the play offs.
We all knew it wasn't possible...Pop included...'cause we've been the ones that exposed this theory more than one time agaist a team that was a lot, and I mean A LOT better suited than ours for playing the way we've playied our vregular season (remember Phoenix? just for an example, Marion was far better rebounder, scorer and defender than Bonner will ever be).
The point that I'd like to take is that when we've afforded the play off with a team organized for have a good regolar season record (and we had the luck to take it with a lot of reular season games remaining) if we wanted to have some hope we had to change our style, play our only real big for giving him playing esperience with Tim and rest of the team.
We didn't do that.
We preferred to believe in the mirage that a team with no athletes and no dominant bigs (and no more dominant perimeter players too) would have been able to win it all just based on the "system"... let's just hope that now it's not too late.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i thought tiaggo played exceptionally well in the first quarter, most of his points and rebs came of 2nd chance opportunities and his defense was good, it didnt help when u chuck in bonner with him who was fronting his man most of the time, with splitter slow on the help defense, t hats more bonners problem cause he cant defend for shit....

[Pauleta14]

Look who's cooking us in Memphis... Darrel Arthur, Mike Conley Jr, freaking Vazquez looked like a possessed man... Last season was Dudley, Channing Frye and ponytail douche... In close games those guys stepped up and made the difference... we're still waiting for Hill to call a play before there are 5 seconds left on the clock, or RJ to take a mid-air contorted jumper because the play broke down 3 times... and for Bonner to hit a 3 to save his life...

This!!!!

The big3 isn't the reason we lost or are 1-3!!!!! :bang

I know it's easy to rip TP "inability to take over" (against such a team D focused on him, any allstar would struglre) or Timmy's age or whatever, but they are the only one acting like professionals!!!

Bonner and RJ sould really be ashamed of their production... :bang:bang

Neal and Splitter are still learning and not supposed to carry the team, so I don't blame them too much, but Hill will NEVER become the player most of us thought he would be (near allstar), he has all the physical/technical skill required, but he is so weak mentaly, he can't be anything else than a role player... :depressed

With a "decent" production of the role players, we would be 3-1 easy...:bang

[Capt Bringdown]

I knew Splitter would get the blame for the Spurs 3rd quarter meltdown.

[1Parker1]

More than the loss, it's how the Spurs loss that was scary and depressing. Even after so many post-season wars, I don't think I have ever, EVER seen Pop panic so blatantly as he did in Game 4. And the meltdown by the Spurs in the 3rd Quarter of a do or die game in Round 1 of the playoffs just showed you that this team is not in any, way, shape, or form able to compete with tough, athletic teams---which just described all the playoff teams in the West.

R.I.P Spurs. I had hoped you could give Tim Duncan one more special season and run at # 5....

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

This!!!!

The big3 isn't the reason we lost or are 1-3!!!!! :bang

I know it's easy to rip TP "inability to take over" (against such a team D focused on him, any allstar would struglre)

The French flag in your avatar tells me all I need to know before even reading your stupid fucking post. The big 3 isn't the reason we're 1-3, PARKER has two of those losses on him, especially the last 2 games where he was either dribbling the ball off of his knee or throwing it into the stands. Which teams D is focusing on him??? The Grizzlies are doing NOTHING as far as gameplans go to contain Parker, he is playing like a rookie trying to find himself, he almost makes me want to see Gary Neal start in his place. Nothing he is doing seems to come with any purpose.

[1Parker1]

Wow...I just saw this statistic: The Spurs now have lost 15 of their last 18 postseason road games dating back to Game 4 against Phoenix in 2008

:wow :wow :wow

[Avitus1]

It seems over for these Spurs. I always thought Timmy would get his 5th ring now I'm thinking he'll be stuck with 4. Spurs D was surly missed last night and if we move onto the second round we'd probably get swept again this time by the Thunder.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

The most depressing thing for me was not that they lost it was how they lost. I became a Spurs fan in 2000 (I was 12) while living in SA because I couldn't stand the thought of the Lakers winning a title and wanted ANYONE to beat those assholes. I hated the attitude of the Lakers, I hated their fans, and anything else Laker related. While cheering for the Spurs to knock those guys off I started to appreciate the Spurs approach to games.

Grind it out on defense.

Hard blue collar effort.

Winning/losing with class.

Complete focus on the job at hand.

All things that growing up (silly as it may sound) I really admired and used as an example since the time I went into the workforce at 14 years old. These guys let me down tonight and all season. I never respected the Run N' Gun teams because of their "all flash and no substance" approach to the game, and all season I told everyone that approached me out here in Arizona that there was NO WAY this team would go anywhere once the playoffs started because they abandoned their principles.

Last night was this entire season pretty much summed up in 1 game. Team lost focus, lost heart, and lost the whole stone cutter philosophy. I didn't care if they got swept, I at least wanted to see them do it while displaying the things that make the Spurs who they are. The Spurs that made me a fan would never have lost their effort, focus, or their heart.

[Manu_Ginobili]

I've witnessed my share of Spurs losses. However, I've never watched a more depressing loss than Monday night's Game 4. After playing decently in the first half, the Spurs fell apart in the third quarter. By midway through that period, the game began to feel like a funeral -- not only for this season, but for this era. By the time the final buzzer sounded on the 104-86 Grizzlies victory, the only emotion left for Spurs fans to feel was sadness.

-Tim Duncan just didn't have it. The juice he played with in the first three games was absent. Simply put, he played like a 35-year-old with a ton of mileage on his wheels. Hopefully it was an aberration ... but Father Time is an unforgiving bastard.

-I never thought I'd see it. But for a few moments in the third quarter, it appeared as if Manu Ginobili let up. The never say never, relentless, win at all costs Manu Ginobili we love said never. The uninspired play around him and the throbbing right elbow had to play a part ... but it didn't make it any less stunning to behold.

-Tony Parker resurrected his scoring output. He didn't miss in the first half on his way to racking up 19 points. However, his floor game was still in shambles; if he wasn't turning it over, he was failing to make the right read. When Parker's scoring cooled in the second half, the Spurs had no way to make up for his lack of production.

-I don't even want to think about how much money the Spurs owe Richard Jefferson. His performance in this must-win game was a disgrace. When the Spurs needed shooters to step up, Jefferson was instead finding reasons not to shoot. When the Spurs desperately needed offense, Jefferson became more passive than ever. Defensively, he was a 98.6-degree void of nothingness.

-I'm extremely disappointed in George Hill. I've been a believer in his talent over the years but I'm really having second thoughts now. His offense was a mess: passive at times, poor decisions throughout and just very un-postseason-like play. Defensively, he was even worse. He was jumping for pump-fakes, taking horrible angles on closeouts and getting destroyed by any quick move coming his way. Just a miserable, miserable outing.

-Spurs fans begged for Tiago Splitter. Spurs fans got Tiago Splitter in Game 4. Pop made the adjustment of giving DeJuan Blair's minutes to Splitter. In the first half, it really seemed to work. Unfortunately, Splitter played a role in the team's collapsed in the third quarter. It was like he didn't have much chemistry with the rest of his teammates. Oh wait, that was the reality of the situation.

-In another mid-series adjustment between Game 3 and Game 4, Pop altered the rotation to remove Gary Neal. After the debacle to begin the third quarter, Pop called on Neal ... but it was obviously too late to expect him to do much. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Neal's minutes in Game 5.

-Matt Bonner played another poor road game in the playoffs. I can't say I'm surprised. He missed both of his three-pointers and got destroyed on the defensive end. Absolutely annihilated. The fight we saw out of him in the two home games must have remained in San Antonio.

-I'm really disappointed in Pop. First of all, he panicked. The Spurs didn't need wholesale changes to win this series. By better executing their gameplan that they utilized in the first three games, I thought the Spurs had a good shot to beat these Grizzlies. But Pop, going against what he always preaches, blamed his hammer for the rock not splitting.

I don't think it was wrong to play Splitter, however Pop did a poor job of putting him in positions to succeed -- especially in the second half. Duncan and Splitter played together in the regular season for all of 35 minutes. That lineup that started the second half played 14 minutes together in the regular season. To expect for Splitter to suddenly know how to play with the rest of the starters in a pressure-packed playoff game is unfair to everyone involved.

Removing Neal from the rotation was a bad move in hindsight. Jefferson and Hill received more minutes as a result and they were arguably the two worst players on the floor. It didn't make much sense to begin with considering that the Spurs were in desperate need of shooting and Neal has been a big game shooter all season long.

Pop has pushed the Spurs to four NBA championships. On Monday night, he pushed the Spurs off a cliff. More damning, he pushed this golden era of Spurs Basketball to the edge of the precipice.

This is an excellent post!!! BRAVO!

[Leetonidas]

I guess I'm not the only one who got the "end of an era" feeling after watching the sad display. :depressed

I love my Spurs, but we will not be winning this series.

[Typical London Boy]

Initial reaction: we're fucked.

[/thread]

[vanvannen]

I surely was not expecting THAT. I am very disappointed in Manu and Timmy, they just gave up.

[Brazil]

Globally I think we are under valuating the Grizz squad. They are playing good bb focusing on their strenghts and on our weaknesses, they are taking what our D is offering, Conley is taking advantage of the rondo treatment.

I think we could have won this serie and the reasons of the loss is on Pop, Manu injury and TP who is just showing he is not a franchise player (but we already knew btw). Nevertheless this team ceiling was in fact a second round which is sad but true. We have no more the material to go further than that.

[kjhip1]

A very tough loss for a very uninspired team...However, we are not done yet...the Grizzlies have to win 4 games not three...I fully expect us to take game 5...no matter what we are going to have to win a game in memphis..as bad as it looks, this team is still not out..call it wishful thinking...but until we are knocked, I will still ride this team..maybe some home cookin is all they need to jump start a win streak. I still feel the worse feeling in the world was seeing Hakeem shake and bake Drob in the playoffs, and Barkley making that J at the top of the key to exit the Spurs..Last night definately was eye opening, but as I said before, we still have a pulse, abeit one that is close to nonexistent...dont' count them out just yet....

GO SPURS GO!!!!

[kjhip1]

1968 - Boston Celtics over Philadelphia 76ers (Eastern Conference Finals)

1970 - Los Angeles Lakers over Phoenix Suns (Western Conference Finals)

1979 - Washington Bullets over San Antonio Spurs (Eastern Conference Finals)

1981 - Boston Celtics over Philadelphia 76ers (Eastern Conference Finals)

1995 - Houston Rockets over Phoenix Suns (Western Conference Semifinals)

1997 - Miami Heat over New York Knicks (Eastern Conference Semifinals)

2003 - Detroit Pistons over Orlando Magic (Eastern Conference First Round)

2006 - Phoenix Suns over Los Angeles Lakers (Western Conference First Round)

Eight teams have done what the Spurs are about to do...keep the faith!!!

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

Aint happenin. Hope I'm wrong but I just don't have the feeling that it's going to happen. I was so confident about the 2007 title that I purchased my flight and finals tickets 4 months in advance to be there for game 1. This team has given me no reason to believe.

[elbamba]

I'm extremely disappointed in George Hill. I've been a believer in his talent over the years but I'm really having second thoughts now. His offense was a mess: passive at times, poor decisions throughout and just very un-postseason-like play. Defensively, he was even worse. He was jumping for pump-fakes, taking horrible angles on closeouts and getting destroyed by any quick move coming his way. Just a miserable, miserable outing.


The hardest part to swallow here is that the Spurs could have drafted Darrell Arthur. They could have used his size the last 2-3 years. We would have had no need to Dice and could have gone after a better wing or backup PG. Oh well.

[thispego]

Such a good season down the drain, just like that. From day one of this season it felt so good, It felt like one more last time for this team to take a serious shot at the title,everything went well and what happens, getting beat by the Grizzlies!!! We, the fans were thinking about being possible to beat the Bulls and Celtics and Heat in the finals and even saying that with confidence, but they can't even get past the f*cking Grizzlies.

The Grizzlies with their confidence and their Swag, which they had from the moment they were intentionally tanking to play the Spurs, just came on court and crushed the Spurs just like that. It's over. There has to be a miracle for the Spurs to come back from 3-1 and even if they manage to fucking do it somehow, the next teams in line will be the Thunder and the Lakers, well I don't see these Spurs playing like this beating them, not even a chance.

Now, I don't like giving up and being all negative, but this time it's different, it feels different. Realistically there is no chance for the Spurs to get back, Im afraid it's over.

:lmao here's my silver lining.

[GrandeDavid]

Wow, Sean Elliott was commenting after the game that Tiago Splitter's performance was the lone bright spot of the game. I tend to agree with Sean. Splitter never would've been a series difference maker, but he can make an impact and did in a positive way. I hope to see more of him in Game 5. His heart and hustle are needed.

[jag]

Tony, Tim and Manu look tired. Not a few days worth of tired or a season's worth of tired, they look a career's worth of tired. It's a psychological fatigue just as much as it's a physical fatigue. It's the same kind of tired you saw in the Phoenix series. The hype and emotion of the Mavs series last year allowed them to mask it and play on fumes, but the adrenaline rush doesn't last forever.

As good as Manu and Tony are, Tim Duncan is what made them the players we've seen over the past 10 years. We were kind of tricked into thinking the Spurs could win without Duncan being a force on the offensive side of the floor. But the Spurs' success has always been attributable to Duncan. And right now he just looks tired.

[Whisky Dog]

It's over folks, it's over for the Spurs and once TD retires the NBA will go the way of the NHL for me. It was a great time and a lot of great memories, but I just can't stand this league without a dominant Spurs team. I literally hate every other team in the league except the Thunder, hate the coaches, hate the officials, hate the commissioner.

Sports as I knew them are dead.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

The next 3-4 years may not be a lot of fun, unfortunately.

There is an ever possible chance now that if the FO doesn't get it right now the Spurs might sink into a hole for several years of non-playoff basketball.

For instance if Duncan retires and they ship out either Manu or Tony, then the core for the next 2-3 years would end up being something like:

Manu or Tony
Splitter
RJ
Bonner
Neal and/or Hill
DeJuan
and a spot open for some 30+ good FA who is on the decline of his career.

Now realistically, I'm not sure that would be a team over .5 with or without Pop around.

After a couple years not making it into the playoffs the Spurs maybe have a chance to get something nice at the draft. Hopefully something like Duncan but that happens once in a decade.

[wildbill2u]

Memphis had confidence and youthful swagger. Spurs looked scared, wouldn't take the open 3 and looked old and slow.

The window of the Big 3 is closed. Let's be thankful for what they gave us--more than most fans in the NBA got for a decade--and hang in as the Spurs retool.

[Dartherus]

The French flag in your avatar tells me all I need to know before even reading your stupid fucking post. The big 3 isn't the reason we're 1-3, PARKER has two of those losses on him, especially the last 2 games where he was either dribbling the ball off of his knee or throwing it into the stands. Which teams D is focusing on him??? The Grizzlies are doing NOTHING as far as gameplans go to contain Parker, he is playing like a rookie trying to find himself, he almost makes me want to see Gary Neal start in his place. Nothing he is doing seems to come with any purpose.
This team without a healthy Manu has no chance at all. He's a player beyond the boxscore.

Scorers, even good ones like Parker, are replaceable (Manu or Tim scoring more, other players stepping up).

Players like Manu or Tim at their prime, are not replaceable at all. With one of them in top shape, Spurs are still title contenders, with both behind their best shape, they have no chance, no matter if Parker goes into his best game.

Manu should have been preserved in the latest RS games. Manu is great, but his body is not at the level of his mind and Basketball IQ, so there should have been protective measures.

[bigdog]

I've never once gotten up and left during a Spurs game, but I did in the 4th quarter of this one. Just a very very poor performance, but props to the Grizzlies. They're a Hell of a team. I hope the Spurs can win Game 5 and somehow come back and win, but if that doesn't happen, it was a well deserved win for Memphis.

[Dex]

Initial Reaction: :vomit:

[JR3]

This thread is right on. Exactly what I have been thinking over the last 12 hours.

[ginobilized]

Great write up TiMVP.

Here's to hoping the Spurs fans get an all out performance from our team in game 5.

Does it appear that the team is losing faith in the "system" and their coach?
It's hard to know what's going on behind the scenes, but, Manu, giving up seems like a statement to Pop.

[Crookshanks]

Well - it's been more than 12 hours since that debacle of a game, and I'm still depressed. I really thought the Spurs were going to win it all this year. I had such high hopes for them - and they all came crashing down last night.

Yes, in theory, the Spurs could still win this series. But realistically, I don't see it happening because Memphis just isn't making many mistakes and they're playing with a ton of swagger and confidence. Add to that the benefit of some really horrible officiating, and I'm afraid my Spurs are done.

After the .4 heartbreak, I swore I wouldn't let a game get to me like this - but I just can't help it. I love the Spurs and it hurts to see them give up like they did last night.

[Solid D]

I've seen this before. This game reminded me of the ineptness of the Spurs in games 3 and 4 of the 2001 sweep by the Lakers. The Lakers defended the 3-point line and shut down the lane and the Spurs were befuddled and broken...just like they were in the second half of Game 4 versus the Grizzlies (turnovers aside).

The only difference was that it seemed like the slaps and grabs that weren't getting called seemed to cause the Spurs to get frustrated and just sit back and take it.

Sean Elliott said game 4 he was reminded of the Utah series. A series that served as a stimulus to cause Pop to model his philosophy after Utah's. That may need to happen again.

[Isitjustme?]

Tony, Tim and Manu look tired. Not a few days worth of tired or a season's worth of tired, they look a career's worth of tired. It's a psychological fatigue just as much as it's a physical fatigue. It's the same kind of tired you saw in the Phoenix series. The hype and emotion of the Mavs series last year allowed them to mask it and play on fumes, but the adrenaline rush doesn't last forever.

As good as Manu and Tony are, Tim Duncan is what made them the players we've seen over the past 10 years. We were kind of tricked into thinking the Spurs could win without Duncan being a force on the offensive side of the floor. But the Spurs' success has always been attributable to Duncan. And right now he just looks tired.

I agree with this. If Duncan was still a dominant player, Parker and Gibobili would look better as they would be complimentary players instead of go to ones.

[G-Nob]

I feel the the Grizz need to go ahead and put the Spurs away in Game 5 so I can nickname this series Fast Five.

[Solid D]

I feel the the Grizz need to go ahead and put the Spurs away in Game 5 so I can nickname this series Fast Five.

Oh, now that would be a good reason to lose.

[dbreiden83080]

Can't disagree with anything said there. The game was like a funeral. 9 min left in the 4th and i turned it off and had to go for a walk. I couldn't take it anymore..

[Pauleta14]

The French flag in your avatar tells me all I need to know before even reading your stupid fucking post. The big 3 isn't the reason we're 1-3, PARKER has two of those losses on him, especially the last 2 games where he was either dribbling the ball off of his knee or throwing it into the stands. Which teams D is focusing on him??? The Grizzlies are doing NOTHING as far as gameplans go to contain Parker, he is playing like a rookie trying to find himself, he almost makes me want to see Gary Neal start in his place. Nothing he is doing seems to come with any purpose.

:lol

wow, haters are so funny...

As smart as you think you are, you should read my entire post before posting you BS...

I watch the game (do you?) and see like everybody how disapointing TP is, he's not even near the production that is expected...

but

You can't win a series with only 3 players, you need decent role players and those one have gone awol for the spurs, like they did last year against the suns...

and I repeat, as bad as Tony was, he isn't the main reason we lost 3 games (not even 2), he is obviously a (big) factor, but not the main one, far from it! Pop, the lack of bigs, RJ or Bonner are far worse than Tony

FYI my fav spur in Manu and the main reason I (often) defend TP is because of the hate/lack of respect he receives on the board...

We wouldn't even be in the PO without him...

I guess you're among the idiots who want(ed) to trade TP and start Hill... :lol

[Borosai]

The Spurs can still win this series if they get hot from the perimeter for three games. Not likely, but possible.

[Pauleta14]

The Spurs can still win this series if they get hot from the perimeter for three games. Not likely, but possible.


Before being hot, they have to (sometimes) be open, it didn't happe a lot because of the grizz D...

all the 3s are contested, Neal had to shoot way behind the 3pts line last game .

[da_suns_fan]

Good luck moving Dick. $40 fucking million for this shit.... unbelievable. I never figured Jefferson would be Steve Smith the sequel when the Spurs made the trade. Whottt was the only one who called it.

Excuse me? I SCREAMED that Jefferson wasnt going to be a good fit and I was told "only a Suns fan could see a negative in the Jefferson trade".

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

:lol

wow, haters are so funny...
I guess you're among the idiots who want(ed) to trade TP and start Hill...


Wow homers are so funny. Obviously the firs thing that came to your tiny brain was to defend TP. When you're responsible for almost half of the teams turnovers in a game, the blame lies predominately with you. He's our PG, PG's are supposed to execute the offense aren't they? Turnovers lead to fast breaks, fast breaks lead to points, and against an athletic team like Memphis that is young and inexperienced those easy points lead to a ton of confidence and momentum. Outside of Manu, everyone on the Spurs has been pitiful this series. You would think a Finals MVP could at least run a fastbreak without throwing the ball a foot behind a running RJ, or dribbling the ball off of his knee.

As for Trading TP, yeah obviously he needs to go. Along with Manu, Tim, Bonner, Dice, and RJ. Time to blow this team up and get some young pieces in return. Hill is still young and may improve, and seeing is this core is DONE, there's no reason to keep them around. Send Tim to a contender, same with Manu. Let those guys use their skillset somewhere that they will make an impact.

You may be watching the games, but you obviously don't understand basketball. Give me an example of one adjustment the Grizzlies have made to slow down Parker. He's turned the ball over at least 10 times the last two games simply because he had no focus and was moving with no purpose. Let's not even start on all the wide open jumpers Conley has given him that he's bricked.

[Old School 44]

This season's on Pop. It started with his demotion of Blair and then snowballed from there..., no developed youth/athleticism/length at the 4/5, turning Richard Jefferson into a role player, running the offense through 3-pt shooters, no interior defensive help for Duncan, and my personal favorite, playing Manu against Phoenix in the last game of the season.

[Pauleta14]

Wow homers are so funny. Obviously the firs thing that came to your tiny brain was to defend TP. When you're responsible for almost half of the teams turnovers in a game, the blame lies predominately with you. He's our PG, PG's are supposed to execute the offense aren't they? Turnovers lead to fast breaks, fast breaks lead to points, and against an athletic team like Memphis that is young and inexperienced those easy points lead to a ton of confidence and momentum. Outside of Manu, everyone on the Spurs has been pitiful this series. You would think a Finals MVP could at least run a fastbreak without throwing the ball a foot behind a running RJ, or dribbling the ball off of his knee.

As for Trading TP, yeah obviously he needs to go. Along with Manu, Tim, Bonner, Dice, and RJ. Time to blow this team up and get some young pieces in return. Hill is still young and may improve, and seeing is this core is DONE, there's no reason to keep them around. Send Tim to a contender, same with Manu. Let those guys use their skillset somewhere that they will make an impact.

You may be watching the games, but you obviously don't understand basketball. Give me an example of one adjustment the Grizzlies have made to slow down Parker. He's turned the ball over at least 10 times the last two games simply because he had no focus and was moving with no purpose. Let's not even start on all the wide open jumpers Conley has given him that he's bricked.

:lol

Again, did you watch the games??

Anyway, think I'm a homer if you want, my goal was just to point out that the (lack of) production of the role players (+Pop coaching) was more a factor in the series than the (poor) play of Parker or Duncan...

You have you opinion, fine, I'm not going to argue the whole day, because I'm not enough comfortable with my english to do so. :lol

But your 1st point was that because I'm french, I'm biased and a homer, whitch is stupid...

I criticize Parker as much as any player, the fact is that I really think the role players are as much a factor than the leaders, especially with the spurs style of play...
We're not a "catch and shoot" team for instance, the whole players have to participate and even if TP, Timmy and Manu didn't win a game by themselves, they weren't the reason of the losses... (even if tp's TOs are unacceptable at that level, 9/12 shooting compensate in a way).

You wanted an example of what memphis is doing?

Watch again the job they are doing denying the passing lanes,
watch again the way they pack when Tony or Manu goes in the paint
Watch again the way their player who is beaten off the drible doesn't stop playing but go and help the bigs in the paint (remember Arthur block on TP before his alley hoop? that's the perfect example, he blocked from behind, tony didn't see him coming)

The grizz are the n°1 team in the league at creating TOs, even when they don't, they deflect and are constantly active with their hands on the ball...

I tip my hat to the grizz, they are playing like a TEAM (thanks to Rudy Gay injury?) every games like it's the 7...

The only way we can beat them is with a TEAM EFFORT, not with the super production of 1 or 2 players.
If you are/were expecting Tony to win this series by himself, you are/were just wrong IMO.

When Tony or Manu have the ball in hand, it's like the rest of the team is whatching them waiting for do it all...:bang

So again, with a decent production of RJ, Bonner and Hill (mainly those 3), memphis wouldn't have all their attention on Tony and Manu, and those 2 would be able to do their thing...

So next time if you want to argue (whitch is fine with me) don't bring that "flag" argument that I find insulting.
I'm not saying I know everything, but like every TEAM sports, BB is no excetion, you win and lose thks/becasue of the team not because of the production of 1 player (with a few exceptions...)

and didn't even bring the lack of bigs argument...:rollin

BTW, do you know a way to communicate without insulting people who didn't insult you?

[Agloco]

Parker hasn't been able to carry the team like you'd expect the youngest and healthiest member of the Big 3 to do. Although he shot well he had 7 costly turnovers and just 1 assist. Conley had the opposite with 1 turnover, 7 assists. He's been the biggest disappointment for me in the series.


This.

You could make a case that the Post-All Star Break Spurs are actually the team that we were expecting out of the gate.

[quentin_compson]

Give the Grizzlies a lot of credit. Their defensive game plan is working: be physical, play the passing lanes relentlessly (thereby disrupting the offensive rhythm of your opponent) and run the three point shooters off the line.

That being said, the Spurs are only looking like a veteran team right now because they look old. They haven't really shown the good characteristics a veteran team is expected to possess - smart decisions, adjusting to difficult situations and such.
In the second half, they were looking flat out old, tired, beaten, worn-out.

I have no idea what's wrong with Tony Parker, but he is having a godawful series. He shot the ball well in Game 4, but as far as running the offense goes, he did things wrong at a rate that was (in a negative way) amazing. He is being outplayed by Mike Conley, and that's as sad as it is a recipe for disaster.
Granted, Manu and Tim haven't been great this series, but to me, Tony has been the most disappointing player out of the Big Three by far.

Add to that that the roleplayers not only don't step up but rather disappear, and you know why the Spurs are down 3-1. All year long, RJ has been pretty good at knocking down shots despite not getting a lot of touches. This ability, it seems, is gone completely, and yesterday, he was even close to refusing to shoot at all.

Let's face it. This is basically the same team that got swept by Phoenix last year while being punked by the likes of Dragic and Frye. The Big Three just don't seem to have the juice any longer to carry this team, and the roleplayers don't step up on a consistent basis (not even one a game or something like that).
Even with the great (and unexpected) RS record, I didn't expect the Spurs to win a championship this year. I thought that the WCF were the most likely ceiling for this team. And I knew that Memphis would be a tough matchup in the first round. But right now, I'm not very confident in our guys to even win Game 5. I hope they prove me wrong.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

:lol

Again, did you watch the games??

But your 1st point was that because I'm french, I'm biased and a homer, whitch is stupid...
We're not a "catch and shoot" team You wanted an example of what memphis is doing?

Watch again the job they are doing denying the passing lanes,
watch again the way they pack when Tony or Manu goes in the paint
Watch again the way their player who is beaten off the drible doesn't stop playing but go and help the bigs in the paint (remember Arthur block on TP before his alley hoop? that's the perfect example, he blocked from behind, tony didn't see him coming)


:lol you really don't understand basketball do you?
90% of Parkers points don't come off of passes, mainly they come off of him either taking his man off the dribble and finishing at the rim, or Tim setting a screen and TP actually hitting his 17 foot jumper, there goes your first point.

The problem is when they pack the lane and tony is going against 2 bigs plus the man guarding him that's 3 defenders drawn to him according to you, why hasn't he been able to pass to the open man? There goes another.

Again if Arthur is trailing him, and a big is waiting under the basket that means what? Someone is open somewhere, and this is what seperates a scoring PG from a true PG like a Chris Paul or Jason Kidd. Tony has lost his court vision this entire series.

As for not being a catch and shoot team, I'm guessing you haven't followed this team all year because that makes no sense. Bonner, Neal, RJ, and Hill are all guys that are catch and shoot players so I don't know where you're getting that. Manu and tony are the only shooters on the team that can create their own shots, even Neal to some extent.

Take the homer glasses off. Nobody ever said it was all on TP, but if he was even playing Conley to a fucking draw it would at least be 2-2. Instead he's making stupid TO's and killing our momentum while Memphis runs off of his TOs and scores east fastbreak buckets

[Pauleta14]

:lol you really don't understand basketball do you?
90% of Parkers points don't come off of passes, mainly they come off of him either taking his man off the dribble and finishing at the rim, or Tim setting a screen and TP actually hitting his 17 foot jumper, there goes your first point.

The problem is when they pack the lane and tony is going against 2 bigs plus the man guarding him that's 3 defenders drawn to him according to you, why hasn't he been able to pass to the open man? There goes another.

Again if Arthur is trailing him, and a big is waiting under the basket that means what? Someone is open somewhere, and this is what seperates a scoring PG from a true PG like a Chris Paul or Jason Kidd. Tony has lost his court vision this entire series.

As for not being a catch and shoot team, I'm guessing you haven't followed this team all year because that makes no sense. Bonner, Neal, RJ, and Hill are all guys that are catch and shoot players so I don't know where you're getting that. Manu and tony are the only shooters on the team that can create their own shots, even Neal to some extent.

Take the homer glasses off. Nobody ever said it was all on TP, but if he was even playing Conley to a fucking draw it would at least be 2-2. Instead he's making stupid TO's and killing our momentum while Memphis runs off of his TOs and scores east fastbreak buckets


wow, do you at least read my entire post???

You're the one obsessed by Parker obviously and that's makes you blind concerning the other players..

Did I say Parker did a great job or something close to it?

read again....

Especialy the part where I talk about the fact that memphis is playing with a lot more energy and have all it's player playing together, at the same time...?
Even when our 3pt shooters get the ball they rarely are open, because memphis players are constantly active contrary to the spurs players.

I don't even know why I'm losing my time with you...

I don't see myself as the best BB specialist and often learn a lot with some STalkers with smart constructive posts, whitch is obviously not your case.
You just decide to understand what suits your tiny brain instead of having a constructive talk, I've had enough of you for today.

[boutons_deux]

the key Grizz defense tactic was to stay up close to their man, while the Spurs sag way off, go under screens, leaving them open for jumpers.

[Pauleta14]

Nobody ever said it was all on TP, but if he was even playing Conley to a fucking draw it would at least be 2-2. Instead he's making stupid TO's and killing our momentum while Memphis runs off of his TOs and scores east fastbreak buckets

:lmao

do you at least read your own posts??

[SenorSpur]

The hardest part to swallow here is that the Spurs could have drafted Darrell Arthur. They could have used his size the last 2-3 years. We would have had no need to Dice and could have gone after a better wing or backup PG. Oh well.

GReat point. In fact, there were a lot of teams that passed on Arthur during that draft. He's really developed his shot and has turned into a very fine-looking player.

[silverblk mystix]

GReat point. In fact, there were a lot of teams that passed on Arthur during that draft. He's really developed his shot and has turned into a very fine-looking player.

It would NOT have fuckin' mattered...

because Pop would have played Bonner in front of him....and Popologists...would have defended the decision.

[lmbebo]

Issues on offense
1) lack of outside shooting, griz are collapsing in the paint. Making TP's job that much harder
2) Lack of bench production - Its really been Manu and Tim. TP got points in game 1 at the FT line by attacking. Game 4 he scored well, but didn't run the offense great and was a turnover machine
*3) RJ needs to be more involved. Pop needs to run plays for him or he needs to be more aggressive. He's been very timid.

Defensively
Bonner is out there to create match up issues by hitting the outside shot. He hasn't. He's only so-so on defense and out matched by the Griz big men.
Blair - matches up a litltle better, but is really undersized compared to them.
Dyess - a few years too old.
Splitter - rookie with not enough playing time to get respect from the refs and pop. Horrible on offense. Smart player though.


This team can be lethal when they are clicking. But seems that they're stuck in between gears and getting lapped.

[angelbelow]

Well... shit..

[SA210]

ducks, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you need to go get laid. Tony Parker has gotten smoked by Mike freakin' Conley all series.

Father time didn't catch up with Manu. A foolish decision by Pop to play him in the last game of the season did him in.

[SenorSpur]

I've seen this before. This game reminded me of the ineptness of the Spurs in games 3 and 4 of the 2001 sweep by the Lakers. The Lakers defended the 3-point line and shut down the lane and the Spurs were befuddled and broken...just like they were in the second half of Game 4 versus the Grizzlies (turnovers aside).

The only difference was that it seemed like the slaps and grabs that weren't getting called seemed to cause the Spurs to get frustrated and just sit back and take it.

Sean Elliott said game 4 he was reminded of the Utah series. A series that served as a stimulus to cause Pop to model his philosophy after Utah's. That may need to happen again.

Maybe this time, Pop should model his rebuilding philosophy after the OKC Thunder, who by design, modeled their philosophy after the Spurs - building through the draft.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

:lmao

do you at least read your own posts??

:lmao So you're saying if TP was playing the way he used to in past playoffs, the Spurs would still be down 3-1? Just answer that retard.

[Solid D]

Maybe this time, Pop should model his rebuilding philosophy after the OKC Thunder, who by design, modeled their philosophy after the Spurs - building through the draft.

You know, as a matter of fact SenorSpur, the Thunder became my 2nd favorite team the same hour of the Perkins trade.

[ducks]

You know, as a matter of fact SenorSpur, the Thunder became my 2nd favorite team the same hour of the Perkins trade.

bandwanger fan


I like the bulls before mj in the east
and spurs in the west

[SequSpur]

bandwanger fan


I like the bulls before mj in the east
and spurs in the west

you really are stupider than shit.....

I want to say something here...timvp's first post in this topic is right on target....good stuff....

Most of you don't know shit about basketball...

[Solid D]

bandwanger fan


I like the bulls before mj in the east
and spurs in the west

What does that have to do with anything? Sheesh. This is entertainment.
I was a huge Celtics fan when I lived in the Northeast when Bill Russell was playing but things change.

Learn how to spell, ducks. It's bandwagon. By the way, bands haven't gone around on wagons in a almost a century.

[Pauleta14]

:lmao So you're saying if TP was playing the way he used to in past playoffs, the Spurs would still be down 3-1? Just answer that retard.

:lol:wow:lol:lol

how old are you?

You're probably the kind of person who loves forums, it allows you to talk like you're a big/bad boy and say things you'll never say in front of people...:lol

Obviously you left school early, so I'm gonna explain it again...

Memphis D is underrated by spurs fans!!

Do you think Rondo would have a 20 ast game against memphis? maybe, but with 10 TOs..

Do you think Tony would have suck the same way against anyother team?

They have the best freaking perimeter D of the league (remember 1st at drawing TOs..?), one of the best I've ever seen in terms of intensity..

Each time in the past when TP was the center of attention of the opposite team, TP strugled to go in the paint and the way Memphis is cutting the passing lane makes it difficult to execute the way the spurs are used to...

Again, AS DISAPOINTING AS TP was, it's a TEAM game...

Do you realise we have 1 of the worst interior D of the PO teams?

Do you realise that their C, SF, SG and PG look like allstars??

Gasol looks better than his old brother! :lol

So, OF COURSE Tony deserve his share of criticism (find a quote where I say he was great/ok/perfect or whaterver...), 2/3 of his TOs are unacceptable!
But I don't think it's fair to juge him as the lone reason the spurs are in deep shit...

Is it Tony's fault if Bonner is shitting in his pants each time he's in PO, if RJ has gone AWOL, if Hill is mentaly weak, if Pop make Splitter suddenly START in the 3rd fouling every 2 possessions?

If timmy isn't timmy anymore?

If you think only 1 player is the reason we are 1-3, you're just an idiot, nobody can help you but yourself...

IMO the main reason (not the only one) in phychological, one team believes in itself, the other doesn't. You can see it clearly in the body languages...:bang

[Obstructed_View]

Memphis D is underrated by spurs fans!!



Their ability to render Tony Parker unable to keep from dribbling the ball off his foot is unparalleled.

[Pauleta14]

Their ability to render Tony Parker unable to keep from dribbling the ball off his foot is unparalleled.

:lol

I wish Tony was our only problem...

[Obstructed_View]

:lol

I wish Tony was our only problem...

He's not, but he's the biggest. By far.

[TJastal]

He's not, but he's the biggest. By far.

Parker is having a tough series, no doubt. He's being outplayed by an up and coming talented young point guard (Conley). He's making alot of risky passes and/or flat out bad passes.

But Hill, RJ, & Blair are right behind him (in terms of sucking).

And if anyone deserves the lion's share of the blame.. it's Bonner getting 20+ minutes (or any minutes, for that matter). He is easily the biggest reason the spurs are circling the bowl.. His 3pt shooting has been neutralized and what open looks he does get he's been bricking. He's getting exploited continously on defense in P&R or in the post by Randolph and Gasol. Every time he has to front his man it causes additional problems for other defenders who have to continously help. Add to that he provides ZERO interior help defensively on all the cutters/slashers going to the rim who are getting easy lay ups / dunks.

Been saying it for years, but Bonner's 3pt shooting is a dumb gimmick to rely on given that it comes and goes (usually goes once the playoffs start) and can be neutralized with the right defensive scheme. Which is exactly what the grizz have done. I wouldn't be surprised at all if Hollins spent an entire afternoon going over film on how to exploit Bonner's shitty defense. Cuz it sure seems that is exactly what the grizz have been doing in all 4 games.

[SpurYank]

The Grizzlies had a little something to do with our loss.

Hmm, Shades of 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, and probably many more years. This is the same team that won over 60 games this year. The loss on Monday should have been our second; and we should be 2 - 2 with the Grizzlies. Reminds me of watching the Spurs play at the Jazz a few years ago and the fans were so intimidating that the Spurs were but a shell of the team that ended up taking the NBA title. I sat in the stands in Salt Lake City and feared for their lives (and mine).

Monday's game was ONE game in a long season. If aLL of you were true fans you'd thank this team for giving us so many thrills over the years. I, for one, am confident the real Spurs will show up on tonight. I have no doubt. I've been watching them since the days of James Silas and the Ice Man. And if we lose, I'll look forward to the next year.

Our team is the San Antonio Spurs. Our fans are the San Antonio whiners.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

You're the one obsessed by Parker obviously and that's makes you blind concerning the other players..



I wouldn't say obsessed but he's the one I'm most praying has a great game tonight, because he can be the difference maker. It's not even worth reading your posts because of how biased your are to TP. You never answered the question either. And yeah I love forums so much that I have 380 post here over 2 years.

[TJastal]

The Grizzlies had a little something to do with our loss.

Hmm, Shades of 2000, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, and probably many more years. This is the same team that won over 60 games this year. The loss on Monday should have been our second; and we should be 2 - 2 with the Grizzlies. Reminds me of watching the Spurs play at the Jazz a few years ago and the fans were so intimidating that the Spurs were but a shell of the team that ended up taking the NBA title. I sat in the stands in Salt Lake City and feared for their lives (and mine).

Monday's game was ONE game in a long season. If aLL of you were true fans you'd thank this team for giving us so many thrills over the years. I, for one, am confident the real Spurs will show up on tonight. I have no doubt. I've been watching them since the days of James Silas and the Ice Man. And if we lose, I'll look forward to the next year.

Our team is the San Antonio Spurs. Our fans are the San Antonio whiners.

I give thanks for the thrills of 1999, 2003, 2005, & 2007 but that is then and this is now. The team has glaring problems starting with the head coach that must be addressed immediately after this season ends. I hope Holt wisens up to all of Pop's increasingly mind numbing stupidity and puts an end to it.

[TacoCabanaFajitas]

But Hill, RJ, & Blair are right behind him (in terms of sucking).



TP isn't exactly helping out RJ when he's throwing passes a foot behind him and can't get the offense in any kind of groove. Blair has played with energy and toughness when he has been in the games, which is more than I can say for everyone outside of Dice and Manu. So I'm not sure where you're getting your take on Dejuan...he's played like 15 minutes the last 2 games.

Outside of those two 3's Bonner hit in game 1 and some decent D in game 2 he has been worthless. If he can't hit open 3s or play Randolph without fronting him then Tiago should get all of his minutes, at least he brings more toughness and the same 3 pt shooting ability as Bonner in the playoffs.

[TJastal]

TP isn't exactly helping out RJ when he's throwing passes a foot behind him and can't get the offense in any kind of groove. Blair has played with energy and toughness when he has been in the games, which is more than I can say for everyone outside of Dice and Manu. So I'm not sure where you're getting your take on Dejuan...he's played like 15 minutes the last 2 games.

Outside of those two 3's Bonner hit in game 1 and some decent D in game 2 he has been worthless. If he can't hit open 3s or play Randolph without fronting him then Tiago should get all of his minutes, at least he brings more toughness and the same 3 pt shooting ability as Bonner in the playoffs.

Blair has been throwing up alot of junk that barely grazes the rim and is shooting 33% for the playoffs. He has to learn some consistent moves that will allow him to finish around the rim consistently which is almost 99% of his offense. He's a great rebounder when he's motivated and in shape which doesn't seem to be the case anymore. Seems to have affected his ability to create turnovers with his active hands (his other strength besides rebounding) as evidenced by his zero steals in 4 games. He's routinely abused in the paint, along with Bonner. I'm not sure what posiitives can be taken from all this. Maybe you've seen some but I haven't.

[Spur-Addict]

bandwanger fan

:lmao