Role Players

[George Gervin's Afro]

Since 2007 have sucked in the playoffs...

THE MAJOR failure by the front office..

[MannyIsGod]

This is actually really true. No role player stepped up last night. Tiago in the first half but thats it. Neal hasn't hit 3s, Bonner hasn't hit 3s, RJ hasn't hit 3s, Hill hasn't hit 2s or 3s and its really the reason the Spurs got blown out last night.

[it's me]

+1000000000000000000000 you can blame the big three all you wants but a real playoff team should have reliable role players..... and we're getting nothing out of them.

[Russ]

The debate over the Spurs decline since '07 will likely be: 1) Big Three's decline, or 2) failure to replace aging role players, e.g., Barry, Horry, Oberto, Bowen (if he can be called a role player).

I tend toward failure to replace role players. Part of it was bad luck (missing on Batum, for example), but Kurt Thomas, Bonner, and others did not work the way such moves did in the past.

It would have been tough with a declining Duncan, but another run or two was possible with a few different personel moves.

[rjv]

this is the thread that makes the most sense. the big 3 have gotten older and are not at the same level they were two or three years ago but the real culprit is the bench. does anyone really think that the group of blair, hill, bonner, neal and splitter equals the past groups that included players such as mario elie, will perdue, stephen jackson, speedy claxton, steve kerr, kevin willis, robert horry, and even fabricio oberto? or that the roles left by david robinson and bruce bowen have been filled by mcdyess and jefferson?

i really think this is the reason that the big 3 have been so ineffective. they have no faith in the supporting cast and have forced the issue way too much, resulting in sloppy play.

[spurspokesman]

Good thread. Just the thought of RJ and Bonners contract:vomit:

[Xevious]

i really think this is the reason that the big 3 have been so ineffective. they have no faith in the supporting cast and have forced the issue way too much, resulting in sloppy play.
One could also argue that the poor supporting cast play is a result of the big three's decline (Duncan especially). A prime Duncan who gets the ball nine times out of ten down the floor and commands double and triple teams would get wide open shots for guys like Hill, Neal, etc.

The loss of Bowen still stings though. Nobody has come close to filling his shoes.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The biggest problem are not the roleplayers. Yes, they need to play much better in order for the Spurs to be contenders, however, the big 3 aren't playing even close to good enough for this. Whatever shortcomings the roleplayers might have come second and far behind the production that is expected from the big 3 and it's severely lacking right now.

Still, there is a bit of a chance that the Spurs turn it around and win the series.

[Drewlius]

Why does it seem like no one on this team since the end of the season can dribble and retain possession of the basketball? It's like they all turned into scared, over-anxious babies.

[rjv]

bonner is in his 3rd playoff run now and he has consistently been bad each time. neal has been terrible on the defensive end. jefferson has reverted back to that timid player pop wanted to see go away. blair is short. hill is our best role player and he is inconsistent. that is not the supporting cast a contender needs.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Unless I've lost my mind in the last few years, I remember this team being praised for the depth of its bench - and that being one of the reasons of its success along with clutch D, etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

Robert Horry and Bruce Bowen aren't walking through that door.

Instead we have Bonner and Jefferson.

[Dex]

Unless I've lost my mind in the last few years, I remember this team being praised for the depth of its bench - and that being one of the reasons of its success along with clutch D, etc.

That's been the case the last couple of seasons, at least. Last year the Spurs had one of the highest scoring benches in the league with Manu, and this year we had the barrage of shooters coming in.

Unfortunately, when all of those guys disappear in the playoffs, it starts to make the bench look awful thin.

Mason? Bonner? Blair? Neal? Dice?

All of these guys have played major roles for us, but only during the regular season.

[rjv]

That's been the case the last couple of seasons, at least. Last year the Spurs had one of the highest scoring benches in the league with Manu, and this year we had the barrage of shooters coming in.

Unfortunately, when all of those guys disappear in the playoffs, it starts to make the bench look awful thin.

Mason? Bonner? Blair? Neal? Dice?

All of these guys have played major roles for us, but only during the regular season.

mason, neal and bonner all have one thing in common. they are spot up shooters who can not create their own shot. neal can maybe do that from time to time but his defense has been terrible this series.

[Spur-Addict]

Jefferson makes too much as a wing player to not be able to create his own shot.

[rjv]

Jefferson makes too much as a wing player to not be able to create his own shot.

when he had kidd he really just finished in transition. he has never really been one to beat one off the dribble.

what is odd though is that i specifically recall pop saying that RJ would be our best post up SF since sean elliott. maybe i have missed something but i have never seen that from RJ at all.

[Cane]

Parker has sucked as well compared to what he was able to do in '09 and he's just 29 years old. Likewise with Manu and his unlucky injuries come playoffs time but at least he's got the old excuse.

[Spur-Addict]

I've watched our wing players get beat on so many back door cuts, or simple cuts to the lane that I wince at every cut.

[mingus]

I'm not sure you can reconstruct this team in terms of role players and expect a different result. The Spurs lacked a go-to man last night-- a Superstar that almost every team in the history of the sport has needed to win a championship.

If Duncan is in his prime he puts up 25-20-5-5 last night like we witnessed so many times from him in the playoffs, and the Spurs win by 15. He tears both Z-Bo and Gasol a new one. It's just not the case anymore. That's the main difference. It just strengthens Tim's legacy even more.

[cd98]

The real problem for the Spurs: their role players, a.k.a. bench players are all a few years too young and their starters are mostly a few years too old. We don't have enough prime players (really only T.P.) in that 25-29 year old range with 5+ years of experience.

[ginobili fan]

I think the major problem is their mental weakness.
Look at Mason.
Don't know why but you put any scrub against the Spurs and he'll be MJ.
We could have the best role 6th man possible and he'll be Darrell Arthur.

[JR3]

It is a season like this one that makes you not care much about the regular season. We showed all signs of championship potential, but in reality our role players are not playoff guys. They are talented, but weak mentally.

[Spur-Addict]

I'm not sure you can reconstruct this team in terms of role players and expect a different result. The Spurs lacked a go-to man last night-- a Superstar that almost every team in the history of the sport has needed to win a championship.

If the Grizz are constantly shadow doubling and shutting down the lane, you're going to need additional production. They are not just letting people operate on an island in Iso situations. Case in point, the Arthur block on TP, where he then sprinted for the alley on the other end. (Most Notably)


Consequently, they then chase our shooters off the three point line. What happens from there is the problem. There is no creation thereafter. Bonner (oddly), created on such occasions I think twice in game four. He head faked, dribbled in, and dropped a half hook in the lane. He also did a fading hook on the following possession. There has been flashes of offensive production from the subs, but it's not consistent. Couple that with being a defensive liability (Bonner/Blair, and the guards when Pop goes small ball at the 3), that's a recipe for disaster.


They're playing team defense, and helping in almost any pentration situation aside from the occasional lapse. We're forcing the issue, turning the ball over, and the frustration rolls over to the other end.

If they're swarming TP and Gino (Who are those players you speak of), someone has to take the pressure off. Now, we can try pounding it inside, but that has to happen early, and often. In my opinion that has to be an emphasis early as opposed to later. If we aren't consistenly trying to penetrate, that will change their approach defensively if we get interior production. Plus, foul trouble on Gasol would be nice.

In game 1 when Timmy got off to a great start, we looked fantastic. And, that was a game we should've won. Tim was 8-13, and was by far our best player. Game two, Tim was 7-12. Game three, 5-11. Granted, some of those buckets are off pick and rolls, but you can't discredit his play making ability offensively.

They're definetly trapping Timmy as well, I get that. But, when your point guard has five turnovers at the half, and ends up with seven in limited time thereafter, there must be a slight change. Defensively I think pop knows we can't have liabilities out there anymore for extended periods.

[MannyIsGod]

I'm not sure you can reconstruct this team in terms of role players and expect a different result. The Spurs lacked a go-to man last night-- a Superstar that almost every team in the history of the sport has needed to win a championship.

If Duncan is in his prime he puts up 25-20-5-5 last night like we witnessed so many times from him in the playoffs, and the Spurs win by 15. He tears both Z-Bo and Gasol a new one. It's just not the case anymore. That's the main difference. It just strengthens Tim's legacy even more.

You're very very right about how they lacked a go to guy last night. It was so glaring and yet I would have never thought about it because I always thought we had at least 2 if not 3.

[Dex]

You're very very right about how they lacked a go to guy last night. It was so glaring and yet I would have never thought about it because I always thought we had at least 2 if not 3.

Circumstances are just grim at the moment. It's a 1-2-3 punch that none of us could have seen coming.

1) Tim has simply just lost a step. It's just like watching Robinson in those twilight years. The heart and desire are still there, but I think it was Kenny or Charles who said it best last night, "His mind is writing checks his body can no longer cash". He can turn it on for spurts, but he just can't be the dominant force he once was, no matter how much he wants to be.

2) Manu is playing with one arm. At first I didn't think the brace would affect him that much, and he's still out there putting up amazing effort, but after watching him having to shoot one-handed free throws and threes, it's obvious that he just can't be the player we need for him to be right now. He's stopped shooting from the arc, which has let players sag off him on the drive. Incredibly frustrating, because Manu had become the leader of this team, and to have him get hurt in the final game of the season on a routine screen is just a killer.

3) Tony Parker is in an absolute funk. Maybe it's the pressure of knowing it's all riding on his shoulders, in this series more than any other. Maybe it's Tony finally having that mental breakdown. Maybe it really is just Memphis' defense. Whatever the reason, Tony has been the least able to step up when he is needed the most. He got his scoring back on track in the first half of game four, but still had a terrible floor game and was constantly making mistakes that fueled the Grizzlies attack.

[timtonymanu]

It's because the front office has settled for guys that are TOO nice. They don't have any toughness that players like Bowen, Oberto and Horry had.

I had a feeling the bench would be exposed in the playoffs. These guys can light it up in the regular season but when the playoffs come around, they look afraid. Out of RJ, Hill, Bonner, or Blair, not one of those guys could be counted on. Neal and Splitter were the only ones who looked ready and they were pretty much out of the rotation. Look at the other contenders in the playoffs. The Bulls have Korver stepping up. The Celtics have Big Baby. The Lakers have Artest. Even Jason Terry has been stepping up for Dallas. When I look at the Spurs bench, I'm just hoping they will give something. It's why their role players. They play like the Big 3 are gonna bail them out so they don't need to step up as much. This isn't 2007 anymore.

Hopefully RJ, Bonner, Blair, and Hill are all shopped. We need a guy who's gonna play tough. Too many mental midgets on this team. Bowen and Horry are rolling in their graves right now.

[rjv]

Bowen and Horry are rolling in their graves right now.

metaphorical graves of course. bowen is actually out buying bow ties and horry is at pizza hut.

[mingus]

TBH I don't think the Spurs future is as grim as people make it. Is this team saddled with a couple bad contracts? Yeah, but if you look at it the Spurs have some young guys at a good price that you might be able to package with a guy like RJ or TP. Suddenly RJ's contract doesn't look so bad if you pair him with some combination of Neal/Hill/JA/Blair or maybe even Splitter if you just wanna completely start over. I think the FO can make something happen. All I know is that Manu and Tim better retire as Spurs.

[rjv]

TBH I don't think the Spurs future is as grim as people make it. Is this team saddled with a couple bad contracts? Yeah, but if you look at it the Spurs have some young guys at a good price that you might be able to package with a guy like RJ or TP. I think the FO can make something happen. All I know is that Manu and Tim better retire as Spurs.

i agree. splitter is a keeper but we can find a way to ship out some contracts as there are some players that could still be coveted. it will not be by the draft though as we will probably be a decent team for a year or two. just not an upper tier team at all.