American Hostage Found Beheaded

[KoriEllis]

Zarqawi Group Beheads U.S. Hostage Armstrong
By Ed Cropley

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An Iraqi group led by al Qaeda ally Abu Musab al-Zarqawi beheaded American Eugene Armstrong and posted a video of the killing on the Internet on Monday.

The hostage's body was later recovered and identified, a U.S. official in Washington told Reuters.

The video, broadcast on an Islamist site, showed a masked man sawing the construction contractor's head off with a knife.

It also showed the banner of Zarqawi's Tawhid and Jihad group, which said it had kidnapped him along with another American and a Briton from their house in central Baghdad on Thursday. The other two now face death within 24 hours.

In the video, five armed and masked men stood around the hostage, who was blindfolded and dressed in orange overalls typical of U.S. jails and associated around the world with images of Muslims detained at Guantanamo Bay.

After reading a lengthy statement, during which the hostage sat rocking on the floor, one of the men decapitated him.

They said they had killed Armstrong because the U.S. authorities had failed to free women prisoners in Iraqi jails. They gave another day for the United States to do so, or Jack Hensley and Briton Kenneth Bigley would also be killed.

President Bush, however, vowed to keep up the pressure: "We will stay on the offensive against them," he said at an election event in Derry, New Hampshire, before the video.

"They will behead people in order to shake our will. These people are ideologues of hatred."

Tawhid and Jihad said in an Internet posting on Saturday it would kill all three men unless Iraqi women were freed from Abu Ghraib and Umm Qasr jails.

The U.S. military says no women are being held in the two prisons specified, but that two are in U.S. custody. Dubbed "Dr Germ" and "Mrs Anthrax" by U.S. forces, they are accused of working on Saddam Hussein's weapons programs and are in a special prison for high-profile detainees.

The hostages' families have appealed for their release. The men were seized from their house in an upscale neighborhood of Baghdad early on Thursday morning by a group of gunmen.

Zarqawi's group has claimed responsibility for most of the bloodiest suicide bomb attacks in Iraq since the fall of Saddam.

It has already beheaded several hostages, including U.S. telecoms engineer Nicholas Berg in May and South Korean driver Kim Sun-il in June.


MORE THAN A DOZEN HOSTAGES

The group released Filipino captive Angelo de la Cruz in July after Manila bowed to its demands to pull out troops.

The United States has offered $25 million for information leading to the death or capture of Zarqawi, a Jordanian, and has launched a series of air strikes on his suspected hideouts in the rebel-held town of Falluja, west of Baghdad.

The latest strike was on Monday afternoon, residents said. Doctors said at least two people were killed.

Another Islamist group freed 18 Iraqi soldiers it had threatened to kill, but more than a dozen other hostages are still facing death unless demands from their captors are met.

Two French journalists were seized a month ago, and two female Italian aid workers were kidnapped in broad daylight in central Baghdad earlier this month.

A statement purportedly from the group holding the Frenchmen said at the weekend they were o longer captives but had agreed to stay with the group for some time to cover it. France said on Monday it was preparing for a long wait for their release.

Another group has threatened to kill 10 workers from a U.S.-Turkish firm unless their company stopped doing business in Iraq within three days. Most of the workers seized are believed to be Turkish.

On Sunday a guerrilla group said it had captured 18 Iraqi soldiers and would kill them unless authorities freed an aide to Shi'ite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, Hazem al-Araji, within 48 hours. Araji was arrested on Saturday night by U.S.-backed forces, Sadr's supporters said.

The release of the Iraqi soldiers -- shown on a video given to Reuters on Monday -- followed an appeal by a Sadr aide, Ali Smeisim, for the hitherto unknown group, the Mohammad bin Abdullah Brigades, to free them.

It was not immediately clear if Araji had been released.

One U.S. soldier was killed when guerrillas attacked a U.S. patrol north of Baghdad on Monday, the U.S. military said.

In the northern city of Mosul, a car rigged with explosives blew up killing all three inside the vehicle in what was probably a premature detonation of the bomb, police said.

The Association of Muslim Scholars, an influential Sunni group, said two of its members were assassinated in separate incidents over the past 24 hours, raising concerns guerrillas were targeting clerics to try to spark sectarian war.

More than 300 Iraqis have been killed in a surge of violence over the past 10 days, casting doubt on whether elections can go ahead in January as scheduled.

Prime Minister Iyad Allawi insisted on Sunday the polls would take place as planned. The U.S. military says it has launched a drive to regain control of rebel-held areas ahead of the elections.

[ClintSquint]

:cuss

[Yonivore]

I say they find out which mosque this bastard is cowering in and level it.

[LandSharkII]

Agreed.

[SpursWoman]

I know how it can be done relatively effectively and limit civilian deaths...

Just strap a bomb on Nbadan*, send him in there to make sure there are no non-combatants inside...then level it. Then send his family a check for $25,000.


:)
























* That was a joke, btw.



When you hear shit like this....it's very difficult not wonder if fighting fire with fire is necessarily a bad thing--a 100% pure emotional reaction.

What really is the best way to deal with these psychopaths? Cave and give them what they want? Ignore them? Why should we be forced to fight *fair* when they don't even know the definition of the word?

[Yonivore]

If not Iraq, where? If not now, when?

With the exception of Russia and Israel, terrorism has been fairly quiet in the rest of the world.

These are the tactics to which they resort to solve every dispute, what would capitulating do except postpone the inevitable.

Kill 'em until they are broken.

[Samurai Jane]

I was listening to the radio and a guy, don't know who, I was flipping channels mentioned that Germany was in a similar state of chaos after Hitler was ousted and the US has similar problems with the remnant Nazis. The way they took care of them was fighting fire with fire, hunting them down and basically killing them. Don't know if that's true but I guess they didn't worry about political correctness back then. Maybe it's time to take the PC Kid gloves off and let our armed forces do what they are trained to do.

[Yonivore]

It's true and it last about 5 years beyond VE day.

Americans, today, have become weenies.

[Yonivore]

Incidentally, SJ, there were people like DeSPURate and Nbadanallah back then too.

Fortunately, FDR and Truman, stayed the course and saw the war through to the end.

Read up on Joseph Kennedy, he was a big Hitler appeaser.

[exstatic]

...unlike Prescott Bush and George Herbert Walker, who were ardent Nazi supporters, and had assets seized under the Trading with the Enemy act in 1942.

[scott]

One difference is that the Nazi's were actually afraid to die.

[SpursWoman]

One difference is that the Nazi's were actually afraid to die.


True. :(

[Yonivore]

Yeah, but the Japanese weren't so we nuked 'em.

Maybe Fallujah needs some radiation.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The problem is politics have taken hold in America's actions in Iraq.

It basically goes back to what Osama said about America being true - that we're afraid to "get our boots dirty."

The political side dictates us treating these assholes with kid gloves. Look at Najaf - we pulled back twice after having Sadr and his henchmen surrounded. F it. If they're surrounded, just carpet bomb the entire lot and get it over with.

Unfortunately thanks to tree huggers and the political left, not to mention crooked foreign leaders/international diplomats. We have all this pressure to conform to kumbayah warfare, when these bastards really need to be kicked in the balls, and then kicked in the teeth repeatedly when they're crying on their knees.

Take the damn gloves off W., if they want their 72 virgins let's give them an express lane to do it.

[Nbadan]

The ignorance in this thread knows no bound. First off, we have tried killing 1,000's of these Iraqis along with 10,000's of innocent civilians and you know where it has gotten us - nowhere. The illegal invasion of Iraq, the killing of innocent civilians, the torture and rape of women and children at Abu Gharib, the recent hostage-taking of innocent Iraqi civilians to try and win influence over enemy fighters. The murder, the mayhem, the violence and slaughter of innocent men, women and children, and all this in the name of what? In the name of God?

If you are wondering what makes monsters like Al-Zarqawi possible maybe all of you ought to take a good long hard look in the mirror.

[SpursWoman]

Give me a fucking break, Dan. That has been going on long before the United States was even in existance.

God, if that didn't sound straight out of the asshole of Michael Moore I don't know WHAT does.

[Tommy Duncan]

Great now the nutjob is comparing all of us to Hussein.

[Joe Chalupa]

Terrorism cannot be killed in itself.
We cannot negotiate with terrorists, thus hostages will die.

[Nbadan]

Terrorism is like mosquito's. Your never gonna kill every mosquito that is out to get you by trying to kill them one or more at a time. The only way to kill the mosquito is to change the ecology. The only way to end terrorism is to end the reasons that Islamist turn to terrorism in the first place - a lack of job, education and a future.

[Nbadan]

God, if that didn't sound straight out of the asshole of Michael Moore I don't know WHAT does.

Well if that's not hate fueled by right-wing talk radio I don't know what is. Here is a political novice telling me that I don't know anything about terrorism.

[Tommy Duncan]

The only way to end terrorism is to end the reasons that Islamist turn to terrorism in the first place - a lack of job, education and a future.

Which perhaps would come from liberating an oppressed people and helping them establish a freer society with a limited democratic government.

Damn, danny is starting to sound like a "Neocon" now.

[Samurai Jane]

The only way to end terrorism is to end the reasons that Islamist turn to terrorism in the first place - a lack of job, education and a future.

What exactly do you think we're doing over there in the rebuilding of Iraq, building new schools, training teachers and so on?

[Nbadan]

What exactly do you think we're doing over there in the rebuilding of Iraq, building new schools, training teachers and so on?

It's not like they didn't have schools in Iraq before we invaded, and yes in secular Iraq girls went to school also. We can't cut these people down mortally and then give them a band-aid to cover up the wound. It doesn't work that way

[Hook Dem]

"Here is a political novice telling me that I don't know anything about terrorism." ......Well Dan....your posts exhibit that you don't! And you have the nerve to call someone else a novice? Thats the joke of the century.:rollin Keep looking in the mirror and you'll be alright!

[Tommy Duncan]

So your argument is that these people were better off being oppressed and without any hope for anything? In case you weren't paying attention Hussein didn't give a **** about his own people.

[Nbadan]

Please. My posts have consistently shown that I understand terrorism much better than 90% of the posters on this board. As far as SW, I have nothing personally against her, but her posts lack any real substance. It's to easy and lazy to just blatantly attack people.

[Tommy Duncan]

Ha.

[Hook Dem]

"It's to easy and lazy to just blatantly attack people." ......Idiots need attacking!:lol

[SpursWoman]

As far as SW, I have nothing personally against her, but her posts lack any real substance. It's to easy and lazy to just blatantly attack people.


You're right Dan. Because I don't toe the liberal line I'm ignorant. Sorry I'm not of the belief that by ignoring it it goes away. It really doesn't take a political scholar to figure that one out.

The only possible way to make it stop is to eliminate the people perptuating it. Because if you haven't noticed, they haven't shown a great deal of enthusiam for negotiating, or regard for human life.

Only when you get rid of those *individuals* will there ever be the possiblity for freedom and a relatively peaceful life for their citizens.

[Joe Chalupa]

"It is okay to lose to opponent, must not lose to fear!"
-Mr. Myagi

[Tommy Duncan]

The US had not responded to Islamist terrorist attacks against this nation for decades. It tried the ignoring (aka 'understanding why they hate us') approach.

Didn't work.

Here's an idea. Perhaps the US non-response to said terrorism created the impression that indeed the US was weak and did not have the desire to fight back against Islamist terrorism? Did not the retreat from Somalia confirm that impression, much like the retreat from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marine barracks there in 1983?

[Joe Chalupa]

I don't have a problem with responding to terrorism, it is the inconsistency that sucks.

For me, Saudi Arabia is getting a pass and the slaughter in Sudan to me is also an act of terrorism.

Iraq had no ties to 9/11. They were all Saudi's or am I wrong on that?

[Tommy Duncan]

Well we have this relationship with the Saudis due to their impact on the global crude market.

[Yonivore]

Joe, even you will recognize we can't hit all places at once and, given that, we have to keep up pretenses with those who we know are terrorist haven until we've reached their page in the strategy.

Different approaches for different problems. Every one of those mother fuckers will have their day...provided we stay the course, no matter who's in office.

[Joe Chalupa]

Another issue I have is with Dubya's stubborness to listen to others. I like a strong leader but a strong leader also needs to listen even if they are giving constructive criticism of your policies.
"Stay the course" is fine and dandy if the course is working.
The past week we've heard form Powell, McCain, Hagel, Lugar..all republicans state that that there are serious concerns on how the war is going.

[Yonivore]

You don't know that he's not listening...a war strategy can't be turned on a dime.

[Joe Chalupa]

But can it be turned on billions?

[xrayzebra]

Well Joe, how do you know it is not working: Staying the
course. May I be so bold as to ask the question, have
homocide attacks stopped "anywhere" in this world? Are
you saying that they are all Bush's fault?

I will be even more forward and ask the question: just what
in the world is Mr. Kerry going to do about it. Go the the
United Nations? Hell most of them are terriorist or support
terriorist. Kokkie is so crooked he will have to be screwed
into the ground when he dies. God people who give the
United Nations are credit for anything is so blind. Without
our money there would be no United Nations. It was a
good idea that failed.

[Joe Chalupa]

I'm not saying it is Bush's fault.
Did I mention the United Nations?
Did Bush not address the United Nations today?

What I'm saying is that there is still much work to do in Iraq and perhaps some changes are in need.
I'm not saying to pull out or to make radical changes but to pay heed to the reality of the situation.

The United Nations has been successful, just not when it comes to military solutions. Those in the light blue helmets on have been a failure as far as I'm concerned.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The murder, the mayhem, the violence and slaughter of innocent men, women and children, and all this in the name of what? In the name of God?


You're defending people who run around committing 9/11, Beslan, Moscow Theater, Marine Barracks, USS Cole, etc.

You know you're a liberal when you're defending murder, mayhem, voilence and slaughter of innocent men, because it was all carried out AGAINST America, all because America is taking steps to ensure it never happens again.


The only way to end terrorism is to end the reasons that Islamist turn to terrorism in the first place - a lack of job, education and a future.

I don't know what cracks me up more - that you made this statement, or that "you understand terrorism better than 90% of the people on this board."

You don't know shit Dan. Do you know what is at the root of Islam? It sure isn't jobs, education, and a future. It's just that terrorist leaders pray on those without any of the three to help support their cause.

"Islamist" (hint Mr. Terrorist Expert, they're called Muslims) turn to terrorism because in their interpretation of the Qur'an, they feel they have not served God until they have converted the entire world to one Muslim nation.

They turn to terrorism because it is an insult to them that the "infidels" have a stronger economy than them.

They turn to terrorism because there are "infidels" on their holy land (the Arabian peninsula).

They turn to terrorism because they can't fight a conventional war versus our military might, so they have to pick and choose where we're vulnerable.

They turn to terrorism because pussies like you see a few dead bodies and think isolationism is the way to keep America safe, and with America and its allies out of the way they can continue with their penultimate goal - one world, one religion.

You don't know more than 0.9% of this board when it comes to terrorism.

Do yourself a favor and go read a book by someone other than Michael Moore and Kitty Kelly, and you might have a fucking clue.

[Nbadan]

You're defending people who run around committing 9/11, Beslan, Moscow Theater, Marine Barracks, USS Cole, etc.

You know you're a liberal when you're defending murder, mayhem, violence and slaughter of innocent men, because it was all carried out AGAINST America, all because America is taking steps to ensure it never happens again.

How many Iraqi citizens were behind any of those attacks? None.

How many active Iraqi plots have been uncovered that targeted America, American citizens, or American interests? None.

WMD? none.

Al-Queda operatives? Nope.

Justifying murder and whole-scale slaughter through ignorance is never very pretty.

[Nbadan]

Islamist" (hint Mr. Terrorist Expert, they're called Muslims)

:lol

What's not surprising is that you can make that statement and proclaim in the same breathe that you know more about the Middle East than I do.

[xrayzebra]

You folks spout the same old crap. The US of A is the
problem. The poor folks who kill our citizens and others
are just mis-understood. You need to get with Kerry,
Moore and the rest of the group and circle jerk. Why
oh why don't you go over there and volunteer to be
homicide bombers or just shoot the invaders? You are
a bunch of assholes. We never have enough evidence
to do anything but hunker down and let them kill us.
Screw you! You are wrong as two left feet, always
were and always will be. You folks have shit for brains
and every time you open your mouth it comes tumbling
out. Have a nice day.:flipof
:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[Joe Chalupa]

:cry

[xrayzebra]

Oh, Joe. Does it hurt when you get it shoved up your rear end?

:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[Joe Chalupa]

Oh that is so mature of you. :p

I thought you conservatives didn't have nasty, sexual thoughts like those. Sinner! :wink

[KoriEllis]

I don't know if you guys noticed in all your bullshit arguing, but the 2nd US hostage was killed.

2nd U.S. Hostage Killed in Iraq
By ALEXANDRA ZAVIS

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A posting on an Islamic Web site claimed Tuesday that the al-Qaida-linked group led by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi has slain a U.S. hostage in Iraq, just 24 hours after grisly video showed the terror mastermind beheading another American captive. The claim could not immediately be verified.

The group, Tawhid and Jihad, kidnapped two Americans - Jack Hensley and Eugene Armstrong - and Briton Kenneth Bigley on Thursday from a home that the three civil engineers shared in an upscale Baghdad neighborhood. Al-Zarqawi beheaded Armstrong, and the militants on Monday posted a gruesome video of the 52-year-old man's death.

The new posting followed the passing of the militants' 24-hour deadline for the release of all Iraqi women from U.S. custody, and after anguished relatives in the United States and Britain begged for the lives of Bigley, 62, and Hensley, who would have marked his 49th birthday Wednesday.

``The nation's zealous sons slaughtered the second American hostage after the end of the deadline,'' the statement said. It was signed with the pseudonym Abu Maysara al-Iraqi, the name usually used on statements from al-Zarqawi's group.

The brief statement did not give the name of the hostage killed. It promised video proof soon.

Tawhid and Jihad - Arabic for ``Monotheism and Holy War'' - has claimed responsibility for killing at least seven hostages, including another American, Nicholas Berg, who was abducted in April. The group has also said it is behind a number of bombings and gun attacks.

This week's back-to-back killings and the threat of more, however, represented a heightened level of psychological warfare in al-Zarqawi's campaign of terror.

A host of militant groups have used kidnappings and bombings as their signature weapons in a blood-soaked campaign to undermine interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's government and force the United States and its allies out of Iraq.

A car bomb wounded four U.S. soldiers Tuesday on the road to Baghdad's airport, underscoring the inability of American forces to control key areas of the capital. West of the capital, two U.S. Marines were killed in separate attacks, the military said Tuesday.

The new posting came hours after President Bush defended his decision to invade Iraq, telling a subdued U.N. General Assembly session that the war launched in 2003 without U.N. approval delivered the Iraqi people from ``an outlawed dictator.''

Bush told Allawi, ``We will not allow these thugs and terrorists to decide your fate and to decide our fate. ``

Allawi said: ``The barbaric action of yesterday is really unbelievable.''

Al-Zarqawi, standing alongside four other masked militants clad in black, personally cut off Armstrong's head, the CIA confirmed after analyzing his voice on the footage.

Earlier Tuesday, Hensley's family in Georgia appealed to his captors to open lines of communication with them and spare his life.

``He was just there doing a service for the Iraqi people - including even his captors,'' Hensley's wife, Pati, told CNN. ``I would plead with them to please realize this man does not deserve this fate.''

Bigley's family echoed her pleas.

``We are begging you not to kill them,'' said Bigley's brother, Philip. ``We are begging you to find a solution, a compromise, that will help to save two lives, innocent lives.''

Armstrong's body was discovered Monday only blocks from where he lived, officials and witnesses said.

In a video posted Saturday, Tawhid and Jihad had threatened to kill the three men unless Iraqi women were released from two U.S.-controlled prisons, Abu Ghraib and Umm Qasr.

Abu Ghraib is the prison where American soldiers were photographed sexually humiliating male prisoners, raising fears about the safety of women detainees.

In Monday's video, al-Zarqawi announced that Tawhid and Jihad was taking revenge for female Iraqi prisoners and called Bush ``a dog.''

The U.S. military says women are not held at either facility but has acknowledged it is holding two female ``security prisoners'' elsewhere. They are Dr. Rihab Rashid Taha, a scientist who became known as ``Dr. Germ'' for helping Iraq make weapons out of anthrax, and Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, a biotech researcher known as ``Mrs. Anthrax.''

In London, Bigley's son urged British Prime Minister Tony Blair to meet the captors' demands.

``I ask Tony Blair personally to consider the amount of bloodshed already suffered,'' Craig Bigley said in a videotaped statement. ``Please meet the demands and release my father - two women for two men. ... Only you can save him now.''

Blair called the family Tuesday afternoon, but a British Foreign Office spokesman said the government would not give in to the kidnappers.

Foreign Office official Dean McLoughlin later went on Arab television station Al-Arabiya to say ``not even one'' female prisoner was under Britain's control.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan condemned the taking and killing of hostages in Iraq. But he also said Iraqi prisoners had been disgracefully abused, an implicit criticism of the U.S. treatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib.

``No one is above the law,'' Annan said. ``Again and again, we see fundamental laws shamelessly disregarded - those that ordain respect for innocent life, for civilians, for the vulnerable - especially children.''

Through their sorrow, Armstrong's family extended prayers to relatives of other hostages. Rick Gamber, Armstrong's cousin, told NBC's ``Today Show'' that the family doesn't want revenge.

``Our family feels a great deal of grief,'' he said. ``We hope the criminals are brought to justice, but we certainly don't want people to overreact and do something foolish.''

Also Tuesday, the Turkish VINSAN construction company announced it was bowing to the demands of militants and halting operations in Iraq in a bid to save the lives of 10 kidnapped Turkish employees.

Another Turkish hostage, seized Aug. 5, was released after his company, Atahan Lojistik International, withdrew from Iraq, the Turkish Foreign Ministry said. Tahsin Top's abductors had also demanded a $45,000 ransom. It was not clear if money was paid.

But Turkish state TRT television reported the body of another Turk, identified as Akar Besir, was found early Tuesday near the northern city of Mosul. The station said Besir was a driver for a firm working for the U.S. military and was kidnapped Saturday.

More than 130 foreigners have been kidnapped here, and at least 27 of them have been killed. Many more Iraqis have also been seized in the chaos since Saddam Hussein was ousted last year, in many cases for ransom.

[Joe Chalupa]

It was inevitable since we cannot negotiate with terrorists.

[KoriEllis]

And I'm not saying you guys shouldn't argue. You should. But when the arguments are who knows more about Islam or terrorism, who's comments are not worthy, who's are substantive, my dick is bigger than your dick, etc. Then it's bullshit.

Bottomline, just because someone can spout regurgitated info that they look up on google and spin to fit their political viewpoints doesn't mean you know jack about terrorism or Muslims.

The "fact" that no WMD's were found in Iraq doesn't mean that they were never there or that the war was pointless. Also, to think that Iraq/Saddam doesn't have connections with Al Queda is ridiculous. I read more about Al Queda PRIOR to 9-11 than most people could ever read in their life.

[Spurminator]

Kori...

My dick is bigger than your dick.

[KoriEllis]

For Mrs.Spurminator's sake, I hope so. :spin

[xrayzebra]

Yep Kori you are right. It is terrible that people who go
over there to help the Iraq's and make a living are giving
their lives. And it is not going to stop. Look at Israel.
Israel has tried to live in that part of the world since 1948
and the Muslim countries have attempted to "evict" them
since then. Never mind that Syria has also taken some of
the Palestinians territory, and never returned it. It is all
Israel fault. someone, somehow has to stop the junk going on.
The Christian world has learned to live with other religions,
but it seems the Muslim world has not, with few exceptions.
Turkey being one of the exceptions.

[Joe Chalupa]

I still haven't seen evidence that Iraq or Saddam was responsible for 9/11.
That being said.....ahhh, never mind.

[Joe Chalupa]

I read more about Al Queda PRIOR to 9-11 than most people could ever read in their life.

Not to be an a-hole, but I never read that Al Queda was linked to Iraq prior to 9/11, but I could be wrong
Well, unless it was coming from the current administration.

But that's just me and again, I COULD BE WRONG.

Peace!

[KoriEllis]

I first read it in the early 90's. Go to the library and research Al-Queda/Bin Laden and funding, training, etc. Look at documents, articles from 1992 all the way up to 9-11. There's a lot of connections to Iraq.

[Nbadan]

Also, to think that Iraq/Saddam doesn't have connections with Al Queda is ridiculous

Yeah, i don't think Kori meant to associate Saddam with 911, but with Al-Queda. Either way, Kori must know that Saddam murdered two prominent Shiite Clerics, not something that seems to associate Saddam with Islamic fundamentalism.

[xrayzebra]

NBADan. You really do live in your own little world, don't
you. Dictator.....d i c t a t o r.......you know the meaning
of the word. That is the Middle East, stupid. They kill
anyone who opposes them.

[KoriEllis]

Sorry, I have to back out of this conversation. I get very emotionally obsessed with this subject and it gets to me too much.

Prior to 9-11, I was very adamant about the U.S. needing to stop Bin Laden before something drastic happened here. I talked to people (military/gov't/etc) about it every chance I got. On the night of September 10th, I was at a friend's house who happens to be Special Ops. I was screaming (yes literally) at the top of my lungs that we needed to kill Bin Laden before he did something here in America. So you can imagine how sickened I was when I turned on the tv the next morning. When people were speculating who was responsible, I "knew". I had an incredible "guilt" (yeah, I know it's stupid, but you can't deny your emotions) about 9-11. I felt like I should have done something to stop it. Yes I know that's ridiculous.

I can't imagine how people feel who actually had serious knowledge ... I was just a woman who read too much and I felt that way. Anyway, I have reasons for steering clear of this forum. I think that it's great that you guys converse/discuss/argue here so much. The more aware people become the better. I read almost all the threads, but I just can't handle posting in here that much.

Anyway, carry on ...

[Tommy Duncan]

When were those clerics killed? Try again.

[Yonivore]

Okay, who said there was no Iraqi/al Qaeda connection and that there were no al Qaeda terrorists in Iraq before the coalition invasion?

Colin Powell, to the U.N. in February of 2003:

"What I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaeda terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi, an associated in collaborator of Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda lieutenants."

"Zarqawi, a Palestinian born in Jordan, fought in the Afghan war more than a decade ago. Returning to Afghanistan in 2000, he oversaw a terrorist training camp. One of his specialities and one of the specialties of this camp is poisons. When our coalition ousted the Taliban, the Zarqawi network helped establish another poison and explosive training center camp. And this camp is located in northeastern Iraq."
The same guy hacking hostage up.

[Tommy Duncan]

*please wait while danny consults paranoid left wing site for answer*

[Yonivore]

Invading Iraq wasn't just about Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Kori,

Thanks for sharing. I don't feel I have all the answers, just that I have taken classes on terrorism as well as Islam itself, and it appears some people are too short-sighted due to political motives to grasp the big picture.

As a buddy of mine (Special Forces) has told anyone who would listen, Osama and Al Qaeda have been at war with the USA since 1992, it's just that it took 9/11 for people to realize it.

Saddam and AQ had a working partnership, whether or not you want to admit it is probably more a function of your political views than anything.

There were some who knew Osama was fixing to lash out, they were just ignored by the majority of the fedral bureaucracy, because too many of those people were still stuck in the mindset of the Cold War (and continued to be until 9/11 happened).

Probably the only good thing to happen on 9/11 was that it woke up a lot of people in the government who seriously needed it.

Hopefully I'll be joining them soon, this is a fight that we have to win. Not to prove George Bush right. But so that my children, my grandchildren, and even the children of idiots like Dan can live a free life.

[Nbadan]

And this camp is located in northeastern Iraq."

This alleged camp was located in Kurd controlled area. Please do your homework.

[Nbadan]

The same guy hacking hostage up

There is no proof that Zarqawi is even in Iraq much less beheading hostages.

[Nbadan]

Invading Iraq wasn't just about Weapons of Mass Destruction.

The threat of WMD was used by the administration to mislead people, including the Senate and Congress, into thinking that Iraq was a 'clear and immediate threat'.

[Nbadan]

As a buddy of mine (Special Forces) has told anyone who would listen, Osama and Al Qaeda have been at war with the USA since 1992, it's just that it took 9/11 for people to realize it.

Did your buddy also tell you that Usama had been on the CIA payroll until at least 1990? Usama declared war on the west when the U.S. stationed troops in Saudi Arabia during Gulf War 1.

[Nbadan]

Hopefully I'll be joining them soon, this is a fight that we have to win. Not to prove George Bush right. But so that my children, my grandchildren, and even the children of idiots like Dan can live a free life.

I guess this is only fair since it's our children who will be paying for this fiasco for year to come.

[Tommy Duncan]

Usama declared war on the west when the U.S. stationed troops in Saudi Arabia during Gulf War 1.

Right, which is after the US assissted bin Ladin and the mujhadeen in defeating the USSR in Afghanistan and after the US drove Hussein out of Kuwait and put itself between Hussein and the Saudis.

[Joe Chalupa]

There is no doubt that Osama Bin Laden needs to be found if he is dead or alive.

Getting rid of Saddam was a good thing.

But there has been no link established between Saddam and 9/11. Many are convinced there was, I am not.

I just want the elections in Iraq to be a success in January so that the Iraqi people can move on and we can get out.

[xrayzebra]

Aggie, you are right on all counts. The rest of the butt
holes who want admit what is right before their eyes will
get the benefits of those like you and others who are
going over their.

They keep contending their was no WMD, but of course
Hussin killed all those people with "RAID"!!!!. What a
bunch of dummies in this world.
:elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant

[SpursWoman]

That's the problem, Joe. People are demanding to see evidence that Saddam was connected to 9/11, but from everything I've read, that was never really even considered....it was Saddam's connection to terrorism in general.

This is a war on terrorism, not a war to avenge 9/11. A war against them, people who finance them, and people who harbor them.

Why does it seem a lot of people have a difficult time distinguishing between the two? The US and other countries around the world are suffering terrorist attacks. 9/11 was not the only one, obviously. Bush's hopes was to end them everywhere.

Maybe the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but ignoring it isn't going to work, either.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Forget it Dan, it's too far over your head.

Our children won't be paying "for this fiasco", if we don't nip this in the bud now they will be facing more devastating 9/11s and radical fundamentalists trying make this entire planet one nation, one religion.

Saddam had the same aspirations as Osama, he just didn't yet have the nukes to pull it off.

Saddam, Osama, Zarqawi, Zawahari, the leaders of JI in Asia, Khomeini in Tehran, Sadr, Assad, they all have the same aspirations - to be the "next" Mohammed and be the ruler of the Muslim nation, and that nation to stretch completely around the world, from Australia to Russia to Europe to Asia to the Americas.

Unfortunately you're such a small-minded short-sighted contrarian you'll never get it until God forbid the day (because it means we will have lost) some terrorist knocks on your door, points a gun at your head, and tells you to either pledge allegiance to Allah or take one between the eyes.

[Nbadan]

Right, which is after the US assissted bin Ladin and the mujhadeen in defeating the USSR in Afghanistan and after the US drove Hussein out of Kuwait and put itself between Hussein and the Saudis.

Well, the U.S. was looking after everyone's best interests including their own by stationing troops in Saudi Arabia. However, protecting the Saudi royal family is kinda like feeding the hand that ultimately feeds the monster.

[Tommy Duncan]

Right, now did UBL want Hussein to attack the Saudis? Did he not fight the USSR in Afghanistan?

As for the Saudi Royal Family the US government has maintained that relationship for decades. It's not hard to understand why.

[KoriEllis]

Iraq Turns Over Decapitated Corpse to U.S.

By ALEXANDRA ZAVIS

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Iraqi officials recovered a decapitated corpse in western Baghdad on Wednesday and turned it over to the United States, which was investigating if it was the body of kidnapped American Jack Hensley - purportedly slain the day before by al-Qaida-linked militants.

The discovery came as Iraq's Justice Ministry promised to release one of two high-profile women prisoners. Officials denied the decision was linked to demands by militants who claimed responsibility for the slaying of Hensley and another American - and are threatening to execute a Briton captured with them unless all female Iraqi prisoners are freed. The United States said it wasn't aware of such a decision.

The brother of the British hostage, Kenneth Bigley, recorded a message to be broadcast on Arabic language TV station Al-Jazeera urging his captors to free him in response to the expected release of the Iraqi woman.

``They need to see it on television, they need to see females walking free,'' said Paul Bigley. ``Hopefully they will pick this up on the media and show that they have a gram of decency in them by releasing Ken.''

The announcements came as U.S. aircraft and tanks attacked rebel positions in Baghdad's Sadr City slum, killing 10 people and wounding 92. And at least six people were killed by a suicide car bomb in a commercial district in western Baghdad.

The body was found with its severed head in a black plastic bag in Baghdad's Amiriya neighborhood, said Col. Adnan Abdul-Rahman, an official with the Interior Ministry. The U.S. Embassy confirmed that a headless body was handed over to American authorities, but said officials were still trying to determine the identity of the corpse.

Hensley's family held out hope Tuesday that he was still alive.

``We are still hopeful at this time that Jack Hensley is still with us,'' Hensley's wife, Pati, said in a prepared statement read by family spokesman Jack Haley outside the family's home in Marietta, Georgia.

The announcement came after Tawhid and Jihad, an al-Qaida-linked group led by terror mastermind Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, claimed Tuesday to have killed Hensley, saying their demands for the release of Muslim women had not been met. He would have marked his 48th birthday Wednesday.

On Monday, the group released gruesome footage of the beheading of fellow American hostage Eugene Armstrong. His body was discovered Monday just blocks from where he lived, western officials and witnesses said, raising the possibility that the hostages never left Baghdad.

``The nation's zealous sons slaughtered the second American hostage after the end of the deadline,'' the statement said. It was posted on an Islamic Web site and could not immediately be verified.

Several hours passed after the initial announcement with the promised video proof failing to appear. On Monday, by contrast, the video of Armstrong's killing was posted within an hour of the initial statement claiming he was dead.

Late Tuesday, an expanded version of the statement announcing Hensley's death appeared on a different Islamic Web site and warned that Bigley, 62, would be the next to die unless all Iraqi women are released from two U.S.-controlled prisons, Abu Ghraib and Umm Qasr.

Hensley, Armstrong and Bigley were kidnapped last Thursday from a house that the three civil engineers shared in an upscale Baghdad neighborhood.

Ibrahim, of the Justice Ministry, said there was no link between the demands and the expected release of Rihab Rashid Taha on bail. Taha, a scientist who became known as ``Dr. Germ'' for helping Iraq make weapons out of anthrax, and Huda Salih Mahdi Ammash, a biotech researcher known as ``Mrs. Anthrax,'' are the only two Iraqi women held in American custody, according to the U.S. military.

Ibrahim said the decision had been made by Iraqi and coalition authorities, and officials were also considering whether to also release Ammash, a former member of the Baath party.

However, Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman, said he was not aware of a decision to release Taha. He said a group of Iraqi male detainees had been previously scheduled to be released Wednesday from Abu Ghraib prison.

``There is an ongoing process that has been in place for some time to review the status of high-value detainees,'' Johnson said. ``All I can say is that this process continues.''

President Bush took a hard line during his speech to the U.N. General Assembly in New York on Tuesday, when he said: ``We will not allow these thugs and terrorists to decide your fate and to decide our fate.''

Tawhid and Jihad - Arabic for ``Monotheism and Holy War'' - has claimed responsibility for killing at least seven hostages, including another American, Nicholas Berg, who was abducted in April. The group has also said it is behind a number of bombings and gun attacks.

A host of militant groups have used kidnappings and bombings as their signature weapons in a blood-soaked campaign to undermine Prime Minister Ayad Allawi's interim government and force the United States and its allies out of Iraq. The violence has already persuaded companies to leave Iraq, hindered foreign investment, led firms to drop out of aid projects, restricted activities to relatively safe areas and forced major expenditures on security.

More than 130 foreigners have been kidnapped in Iraq, and at least 26 of them have been killed. Many more Iraqis have also been seized in the chaos since Saddam Hussein was ousted last year, in many cases for ransom.

In new violence Wednesday, a suicide attacker detonated a car bomb outside a photocopy shop in the western Baghdad neighborhood of Al-Jamiyah where Iraqi National Guard applicants were readying their papers before heading to a nearby recruiting center. The blast killed at least six people and wounded 54, authorities said.

Bloodied bodies, shattered glass and debris littered the street. Residents and relief workers collected human remains and put them into plastic bags.

At least 13 vehicles were wrecked and the engine of the suicide car was hurled some 150 feet away, officials at the scene said. Iraqi police and U.S. troops immediately cordoned off the area.

Meanwhile, U.S. and Iraqi forces searched for weapons caches in Sadr City, a Shiite stronghold, in east Baghdad. An Associated Press reporter near the scene said a U.S. C130 gunship raked one area with heavy fire after rebels loyal to radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr opened fire with rocket propelled grenades. Hospital officials said at least 10 people were killed and 92 injured.

[Nbadan]

now did UBL want Hussein to attack the Saudis? Did he not fight the USSR in Afghanistan?

I don't think Usama wanted Iraq to attack the Saudis. What he wanted was his Afghan Mujahadeen army to defend Saudi territory in place of the Christian Americans. The Saudi Royal family considered it too risky and turned down his offer. So Usama ultimately blamed the Americans. Although he also declared war on the Saudi's at about the same time.

[Tommy Duncan]

So the US stopped Hussein from threatening the Saudis, helped out UBL in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the bastard shows his thanks by declaring war on the US. It all makes sense now.

[Nbadan]

helped out UBL in defeating the Soviets in Afghanistan, and the bastard shows his thanks by declaring war on the US

It's not like the U.S. wasn't looking after its his own best interests by helping Usama defeat the Soviets in Afghanistan. Usama never officially declared war on the U.S. pre se, he declared war on the West. Was that supposed to mean the U.S. or Western Europe? Besides, by this time it was common knowledge that the U.S. had helped both the Iraqis and the Iranians in their bloody war against each other. Usama did not trust the Americans.

[Tommy Duncan]

Ha. I never said UBL loved the US. Actually, bin Ladin's willingness to work with the US in the 1980s indicates that he's not above working with an enemy of his enemy, even if he could care less about them (ie Hussein post 9/11).

[Nbadan]

bin Ladin's willingness to work with the US in the 1980s indicates that he's not above working with an enemy of his enemy

This was well before Saddam made his aspirations to move into Kuwait known. Usama thanked the Americans when they supplied his Army stinger missiles to help turn the war against Soviets. He had no way of knowing that the American military would soon be defending Saudi Arabia. Something Usama consider forbidden by Islam.

[Tommy Duncan]

That's great. Yet the US still...defended Saudi Arabia from Hussein.

[Joe Chalupa]

I just want us to finish the job and get the hell out of Iraq.
I'm a liberal democrat who is calling for the Marines to be let loose so they can do what they do best...kick some ass!

Tell the Iraqi's to hold their elections.
Congratulate the new leader.
Tell him he has one year to get his country on track and after that they're on their own.
Do we stay and fight terrorism there in Iraq even after their new government is established?

[ChumpDumper]

bin Ladin's willingness to work with the US in the 1980s indicates that he's not above working with an enemy of his enemyIndicates the same thing about the US.

[Tommy Duncan]

So the US does what it deems necessary to protect its interests at the time. Great.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

In the 80s Osama was not considered an enemy.

[ChumpDumper]

So the US does what it deems necessary to protect its interests at the time. Great.As does Osama....

Go figure.

[Tommy Duncan]

So the US and Osama are equal in your eyes.

[ChumpDumper]

When it comes to political expediency, there are absolute and undeniable similarities.

[Tommy Duncan]

Which is irrelevant. What is relevant are the actions of UBL as they relate/related to the threats to this nation's security. If he had demonstrated such capacity in the past to choose expediency over principle then it's not hard to see him choose to do so yet again.

Thus, your rejoinder, while perhaps you thought it was stylistically compelling, was fairly insignificant.

[ChumpDumper]

Which is irrelevant.Only in your feeble mind.
If he had demonstrated such capacity in the past to choose expediency over principle then it's not hard to see him choose to do so yet again.Same with us. Just depends on what who we're more afraid of or hate more or profit more from at the time.

[Tommy Duncan]

Whatever chump.